East Kootenay...Serengeti or Somalia?...

[bugler]

Well I drew a 4-22 moose tag and finally saw a cow and calf today after many trips. I've never seen such dismal muley hunting in all my years here, and we did not see a whitetail all the way up and back on the Bull River. This used to be unheard of but has become a common occurrence.

The guys I hunt with and I cover plenty of country and we just are not seeing the critters. I haven't been seeing the racks on vehicles or in camps either, not like we used to anyway.

We used to see hundreds of muleys on the winter range, in the Picks and on Premier, South Country. Now one is lucky to see 20.

So is it just us, getting old and weak eyed, or are there other EK hunters who remember the 80's and wonder what the hell happened?

[GoatGuy]

The winter range down at the bottom end looks like the back side of the moon, basically one big patch of weeds and cow sh*t. Then you've got 40 years of ingrowth and now you have wolves.

Premier is thicker than the hair on a dogs back, adult sheep can't survive in there.

Not much wondering.........................

[6616]

Well I drew a 4-22 moose tag and finally saw a cow and calf today after many trips. I've never seen such dismal muley hunting in all my years here, and we did not see a whitetail all the way up and back on the Bull River. This used to be unheard of but has become a common occurrence.

The guys I hunt with and I cover plenty of country and we just are not seeing the critters. I haven't been seeing the racks on vehicles or in camps either, not like we used to anyway.

We used to see hundreds of muleys on the winter range, in the Picks and on Premier, South Country. Now one is lucky to see 20.

So is it just us, getting old and weak eyed, or are there other EK hunters who remember the 80's and wonder what the hell happened?


Goatguy is right, times have changed due to overgrazing, cattle, and forest ingrowth. The game is still there (post season surveys have shown that) but often not in high numbers in those old traditional areas. Pickering Hills has been overgrazed to the point where the long-term viability of the forage production has been seriously compromised and noxious weeds are rampant. MOF now has a recovery management plan for the area because it's so screwed up. The old grassland benches on Premier Ridge are all but gone, overgrown by dense forest regen. Time to generate some backing for the eco-system restoration program...!

There used to be lots more game in the tributaries due to much more logging taking place. Now a lot of the game is closer to the main Trench instead of in the tributaries. Things certainly have changed a lot...!

[budismyhorse]

I fully agree with GG and 6616 regarding the tragedy of the winter range around here but I will also say this:

All game is pretty sensitive to pressure and after the doe season and any muley buck in October went into effect the sightings are down. Simple response to pressure. You could drive through Gold Creek to Kookanusa and back right now and be lucky to see a WT doe......they are still there, but the pressure has kept them away from the roads.

Before the season change for does the friggin things were everywhere.

[lovemywinchester]

The best eco system restoration is fire. Prescribed burns will clean up the crap and renew the grasslands. Researchers studying the local grasslands around Kamloops found there was a fire event on average every 12 years back in the day. Both wildfires and started by local FN. I read where a lot of grasslands in the prairies are threatened because of fire suppression. The bushes take over when they are not limited by fire. Maybe they should try that, not popular but it is natures way.

[pescado]

I grew up in the Columbia Valley. Return every year to hunt. This year was are slowest year for Elk. Not sure if it was just us but the people I talked to that usually get there Elk were finding it tough as well. Just leaving today for my Muley hunt so I hope it turns on soon.

[6616]

You are 100% correct lmw. Prescribed burning is and always will be an integral component of ecosystem restoration. The three stage prescription for an ER site is: (1) Tree removal through logging slashing, etc. (2) Pile burning and then wait up to two years for slash drying. (3) And finally a prescribed burn. Prescribed burns are not easy to accomplish though, there is a very narrow spring humidity and moisture content window. Often complications occur like road accessibility, late snow melt, early spring rains, not enough dry grass to carry a ground fire, etc. Additionally maintenance burns have to occur on the site every 5 to 10 years to retain it's condition, but all said and done fire is the key element.

[Everett]

The weather has had alot to do with the lack of Animals hitting the dirt this year the Elk are still up high as there is lots of food still in the timber at elevation. Saw about 200 whitetail last week hunting near the Kootenay river so there still around. Highest grass I have ever seen in that area.

[beeugle]

it's been one of the toughest years finding the game, but persistence and changing how and where we usually hunt, worked for us... but it wasn't like years gone by, elk were not where they have been, or in the numbers there used to be and , there were alot of hunters out there this year!!!! all things considered an interesting year. and it ain't over yet!!!

[Walking Buffalo]

We are experiencing the same thing just over the big hill to the east. Forest ingrowth and a huge increase in the wolf population. It doesn't take long for the dogs to make their presence felt.

[bugler]

So it isn't just me and my buddies. I know we still have it better than most places, but not like it used to be. I can still find a bull elk and getting a whitetail is pretty much a slam dunk, and I hunt only with bow. But finding a mature buck, or more than one bull, is not so much a gimme any more. And I realize it is likely a combo of forest ingrowth and high wolf and cat populations. But opening any mule buck, and whitetail does, ain't likely to help the situation. I am not much of a predator hunter but I guess I will get out the fire stick and try to take some out this winter. And maybe an errant match next summer.....

[roymil]

Sorry G. it's your eyes and your buddies eyes aren't much better, but what can you expexct when one eyes green and the other eye is orange............... Actually we've been pounding the mountains all week and only seen a few small bucks..............here's hoping.

[Deer_Slayer]

it's been pretty warm but I did notice the area I used to hunt near Golden was all overgrown and choked with pine trees. Used to see hundreds of mulies here but saw only 6 deer in 4 days hunting. There's also some kind of huge powerline right of way being cut on the west bank of the Columbia Valley from Golden to somewhere south...it's huge. Must be development on the way

[Fisher-Dude]

But opening any mule buck, and whitetail does, ain't likely to help the situation.

Wrong. Any buck and WT doe season have little if any effect on populations. You're saying after one season all the game is dead? Good grief! Utterly impossible man.

If you followed game population modelling for WT, you'd understand that shooting WT does is the absolute best thing that can happen for the population. Better buck : doe, fawn : doe, fawn survival, large buck numbers, and harvest numbers.

Apply science and get the facts, rather than BS some guy you meet out hunting tells you on a full moon/25C day.

You better tell me why I'm tagged out after decades of any buck mule deer and the same WT doe season here to the west (and closer to the coastal warriors). :wink:

[Buckman]

The powerline is being cut and built from Invermere to Golden. It will be a 250,000kv line instead of the 125 they have now.

[Mountain Hunter]

For a variety of reasons, there are less mule deer, especially mature bucks, in areas around the EK than there was back in the 80s-early 90s. Predators, road access into winter ranges has increased dramatically, lack of fire maintaining high quality winter range, forest harvesting of high quality winter range, some severe winters.

Increase of WT have definitely occurred. I think Val Geist (ungulate expert) pointed out that whitetails don't necessarily out-compete mule deer but WT bucks will interbreed with muley does which waste the offspring as a hybrid, but the reverse does not happen. He said over the long term whitetails will outnumber mule deer where their ranges overlap.

Ecosystem restoration (sometimes includes specific selective-logging practices) and prescribed burns can only help wherever mule deer winter range is in decline!

A few things to consider.

[rollover]

well i was hunting in east kootneeys with 3 other hunters and we got 3 6 point elk within 4 days and also got 1 4 point muley and 2 white tails but they were the only game we saw talked with a lot of hunters and couldnt belevie we had such good luck

[rocksteady]

The best eco system restoration is fire. Prescribed burns will clean up the crap and renew the grasslands. Researchers studying the local grasslands around Kamloops found there was a fire event on average every 12 years back in the day. Both wildfires and started by local FN. I read where a lot of grasslands in the prairies are threatened because of fire suppression. The bushes take over when they are not limited by fire. Maybe they should try that, not popular but it is natures way.

You are right.....

I will not go into detail but be patient, there is change on the horizon and its going to be good for wildlife and forage...I can't get into details on this site, so you will have to trust me on this one....

[bugler]

Wrong. Any buck and WT doe season have little if any effect on populations. You're saying after one season all the game is dead? Good grief! Utterly impossible man.

If you followed game population modelling for WT, you'd understand that shooting WT does is the absolute best thing that can happen for the population. Better buck : doe, fawn : doe, fawn survival, large buck numbers, and harvest numbers.

Apply science and get the facts, rather than BS some guy you meet out hunting tells you on a full moon/25C day.

You better tell me why I'm tagged out after decades of any buck mule deer and the same WT doe season here to the west (and closer to the coastal warriors). :wink:

Not saying it's been one season but rather a steady decline in numbers and age class of bucks. And it isn't just me, (I know I could be just missing them) but many other locals seem to sense the same trend. Yes, I know shooting does is important when there are LOTS of them, not so sure here where the predators help with that quite a bit.

And tagging out on does and yearling bucks is still pretty much a gimme here too, but that doesn't cut it around here when compared to what it used to be like.

[Jetboater]

We saw over 30 bull moose in the region right next to the bull in 8
Days I just don't think they haveade it
That far down the valley yet

[Farmer001]

Hunted the EK for 4 days in Oct with my daughter and the does have "learned" that if they hear anything to run like a gut shot cat. Sat and watched a few does and before I heard or seen the quad they were gone. Did not see as much game as what I was used too but am sure weather and pressure have been contributing factors.

[lovemywinchester]

You are right.....

I will not go into detail but be patient, there is change on the horizon and its going to be good for wildlife and forage...I can't get into details on this site, so you will have to trust me on this one....

You're not going to start flicking butts out the truck window in July and August are you?

[Fullcurled4point]

well rocksteady i really hope you are right. As far as im concerned theres way too much predators and way to many "hunter opportunities" lol....im sure that if this rediculous grizzly bear BS continues you will find a lot of G-bears laying in ditches and over banks......I remember when i was young my dad was a muley freak, and never ended the season without a very good representetive of the species. I my self wish the muleys were what they were in the 80s...i miss seeing lots of critters and looking over Lots of deer all day long...

[bugler]

Sorry G. it's your eyes and your buddies eyes aren't much better, but what can you expexct when one eyes green and the other eye is orange...............

Hmmm, I sense a joke here but it is way over my head.....Gonna need a little help here.

[Fullcurled4point]

We saw over 30 bull moose in the region right next to the bull in 8
Days I just don't think they haveade it
That far down the valley yet
AHHAAHAHAHHAAHHAHA 30 bull moose? lmao...best freind of mine guides in the yukon for moose fly in camp and is lucky to get to look over 10-15 bull in 10 days....

[rocksteady]

You're not going to start flicking butts out the truck window in July and August are you?

Nope....Those are not the best months for creating good habitat...plus I am off the darts for 10 months now, don't give me any reason to start again...

A little more details here....

It is right on the verge that the responsibility for the prescribed burn program in the East Koots and Provincially, will be transferring departments and will become an assigned measurable to get more fire on the landscape, not the way it is now, where it is run off the corner of someones desk who has other job duties....

The people and department that it goes to are extremely passionate about putting fire on the landscape and I am sure will do their damndest to create more habitat...as you may have guessed...I will be taking this on :) And I LOVE to play with fire !!!

[LukaTisus]

I must've drove 60km on Saturday, all up and down area 4-35, looking for a fresh track to get on and follow, and saw NOTHING. A fresh, untouched skiff of snow, with little more than a fresh set of grizzly tracks, and a billion rabbit tracks having disturbed it.. never seen anything like it, myself and just came to the conclusion the open doe season's got the animals pushed right into the deepest parts of the bush right now.

[Fisher-Dude]

well rocksteady i really hope you are right. As far as im concerned theres way too much predators and way to many "hunter opportunities" lol.......

Explain how one year of increased opportunity has has any measurable impact on any game species.

Explain how in the Okanagan and Nicola we have had any mule deer buck seasons for decades, and the same WT doe seasons as the EK, and are 8 hours closer to the Coastal Warriors, yet we're over-run with deer of both species.

[Elkaholic]

Nope....Those are not the best months for creating good habitat...plus I am off the darts for 10 months now, don't give me any reason to start again...

A little more details here....

It is right on the verge that the responsibility for the prescribed burn program in the East Koots and Provincially, will be transferring departments and will become an assigned measurable to get more fire on the landscape, not the way it is now, where it is run off the corner of someones desk who has other job duties....

The people and department that it goes to are extremely passionate about putting fire on the landscape and I am sure will do their damndest to create more habitat...as you may have guessed...I will be taking this on :) And I LOVE to play with fire !!!

Good sh!t i hope it happens.

[budismyhorse]

what do you mean the Region right next to the bull??? Like Region 8? Or do you mean the MU?

If it was in the kootenays, no way on gods green earth did you see 30 individual bull moose in 8 days.

The populations don't support anything like that. :)

[Fisher-Dude]

I've seen a dozen or more bulls in a week in the EK, and that's when hunting elk, and not concentrating on moosey areas.

30 seems like a lot, but if you're in an area of breeding arenas, it's not entirely impossible.

[budismyhorse]

a dozen is a far cry from 30 Patski.

and considering the hunt is post rut and the boys aren't always with the girls...........

I'm sure lots would be double and triple counts of the same bull.

we hunted hard for three days to see our first moose in the most populated moose MU in the koots.........you'd need a chopper to see 30 in 8 days.

[Fisher-Dude]

we hunted hard for three days to see our first moose in the most populated moose MU in the koots.

You can count on it when you have an LEH. Most years I see piles of bull moose in region 3. The one year I had a region 3 LEH, I pounded for 11 days before seeing the bull I put in the freezer. LEH authorizations are sprayed with moose repellant before they are mailed out!

[Fullcurled4point]

Explain how one year of increased opportunity has has any measurable impact on any game species.

Explain how in the Okanagan and Nicola we have had any mule deer buck seasons for decades, and the same WT doe seasons as the EK, and are 8 hours closer to the Coastal Warriors, yet we're over-run with deer of both species.

welll im no biologist like yourself but i have hunted the same area for the past 25 years and up until two years ago..the bottom half of the drainage was absolutely littered with smaller younger bucks..and does..as you made your way up the drainage you were having a bad day if you didnt see 3-4 four points in a day. i consider myself a mule deer fanatic and spend a lot of time reading about and watching mature bucks and have killed 4 deer out of the same drainage all over 160 inches. This year i havent seen a buck. find that strange at all? i do. have you spent much time on the winter ranges here in the kootenays? last winter i found it difficult to find much for immature deer...yes we had a few bigger bucks that were in the 3-5 year old range. i understand that most 3 points do grow to be 4 points but i do know that a 2 year old buck with a descent set of horns with better splits has a great chance of becoming a 4 point mule deer the following year. I also understand that by people shooting smaller mule bucks earlier in the season means one less mule deer tag available for a 4 point. By the end of the season...put your ear to the ground..watch HBC and listen to the people here in the koots who see the deer in their wintering grounds...pick up there sheds..watch the fawns...see the horn growth monthly and finally put in the hoof time in the east kootenays cause if this BS keeps not only will my kids not hunt but i wont hunt nor will the other EK hunters. Not only is our new Horseshit regs effecting our residents here that love to hunt but its hurting our outfitters, taxidermists, tanneries and other industries involved in hunting and it seems easy for you to stick your chest out and blab about what you have no idea about but for me and all my fellow hunters and people in Reg 4, its a chain reaction this WILL and mark my words effect all of us residents.

[Fisher-Dude]

welll im no biologist like yourself but i have hunted the same area for the past 25 years and up until two years ago..the bottom half of the drainage was absolutely littered with smaller younger bucks..and does..as you made your way up the drainage you were having a bad day if you didnt see 3-4 four points in a day. i consider myself a mule deer fanatic and spend a lot of time reading about and watching mature bucks and have killed 4 deer out of the same drainage all over 160 inches. This year i havent seen a buck. find that strange at all? i do. have you spent much time on the winter ranges here in the kootenays? last winter i found it difficult to find much for immature deer...yes we had a few bigger bucks that were in the 3-5 year old range. i understand that most 3 points do grow to be 4 points but i do know that a 2 year old buck with a descent set of horns with better splits has a great chance of becoming a 4 point mule deer the following year. I also understand that by people shooting smaller mule bucks earlier in the season means one less mule deer tag available for a 4 point. By the end of the season...put your ear to the ground..watch HBC and listen to the people here in the koots who see the deer in their wintering grounds...pick up there sheds..watch the fawns...see the horn growth monthly and finally put in the hoof time in the east kootenays cause if this BS keeps not only will my kids not hunt but i wont hunt nor will the other EK hunters. Not only is our new Horseshit regs effecting our residents here that love to hunt but its hurting our outfitters, taxidermists, tanneries and other industries involved in hunting and it seems easy for you to stick your chest out and blab about what you have no idea about but for me and all my fellow hunters and people in Reg 4, its a chain reaction this WILL and mark my words effect all of us residents.

So you're concerned mostly about the outfitters' ability to sell off our game to rich foreigners, I take it? That explains your desire to keep as many other hunters out of the bush as possible. That way, your outfitter buddies can sell "quality hunts" to the Yanks with no pesky resident hunters in the way.

IF you bothered to spend any time at all researching deer population studies, you'd know that there are more large bucks shot from populations that have harvest across all age and sex classes, just like the seasons that have now been put in place. You'd also understand that the deer have moved from your favourite drainages because of changing habitat, and not from all being "shot off" from one season of new regulations that many don't even utilize in the EK.

Instead of bitching about seasons, go get involved in your local club and do some habitat enhancement work for a change. It would be a better use of your energy and will bring better results.

[Fullcurled4point]

I have no "outfitter buddies" thanks. its called economy in wich you just showed all of of us how little you know about. Lets put it this way, if outfitters dont make a kill, taxidermist dont get the job, tanneries dont get a job annnddd soo onn...i understand that those are small peices but they still make a pie. To all you cranbrook fellas reading this ask your taxidermist how he did this fall for animals coming in.

As for your the club comment,
i belong to the RMEF, Wild Sheep Foundation, East Koot big game, Mule Deer Federation and the BCWF. I have sat in on multiple meetings with wildlife biologists and ecologists and been involved in 3 population studies for the wildlife previously mentioned in the last 11 years.

[Fisher-Dude]

I have no "outfitter buddies" thanks.

But, but, but...


best freind of mine guides in the yukon for moose fly in camp

Okay, now that we got that out of the way...


its called economy in wich you just showed all of of us how little you know about.

I guess my 9 years of post secondary education in finance and economics doesn't count.


Lets put it this way, if outfitters dont make a kill, taxidermist dont get the job, tanneries dont get a job annnddd soo onn...i understand that those are small peices but they still make a pie. To all you cranbrook fellas reading this ask your taxidermist how he did this fall for animals coming in.


Why does the outfitter have to make the kill? Why can't it be a resident hunter? The economy of BC benefits far more from resident hunters than non-resident hunters.


As for your the club comment,
i belong to the RMEF, Wild Sheep Foundation, East Koot big game, Mule Deer Federation and the BCWF. I have sat in on multiple meetings with wildlife biologists and ecologists and been involved in 3 population studies for the wildlife previously mentioned in the last 11 years.

So what did you learn from them? Did you listen to the reasons why seasons were opened up? Or did you keep a closed mind and sit and stew about the "slaughter?"


We have all heard from many EK locals on this site who hate to see others come and hunt "their game." Just remember that the game of BC belongs to all BCers, not just you.

[drakfero]

Buddy , r u doing gov job? :)) If no , we guess u r half way there :)) Guys r trying to say , they r making milion km's and they do not SEE anything , not just they dont see bucks , but ANYTHING!!! For me is pretty sad to watch just squirrels too. I hunt reg 8 and all deers I can see are just on the Hwy. I do not like female and calf seasons at all by any specieses. 2 weeks ago we let to run away cow , calf and spike moose just becouse its not right to shoot it in my opinion. If there is too many moose or elk , why is not just relocated? I also hunted elk in EK and its not true that people dont like hunters form another regions , I got advices all the time I asked about elk.. So U R wrong again.. I thing most of us hunt becouse we like to see wildlife and it doesn't have to be in the freezer :)

[Fullcurled4point]

lol well head back to school and grab hooked on phonics to learn how to read...my freind guides in yukon, hes not an outfitter, hes a guide. big diff.

second 9 years of post sec? your not fooling anyone. what are you a lawyer and a doctor? lol

outfitters dont have to make the kill, but they sure help!

ya ya we know it belongs to us all we get it, problem is no one said n e thing bout that i dont think, i could b wrong but

[Fullcurled4point]

Buddy , r u doing gov job? :)) If no , we guess u r half way there :)) Guys r trying to say , they r making milion km's and they do not SEE anything , not just they dont see bucks , but ANYTHING!!! For me is pretty sad to watch just squirrels too. I hunt reg 8 and all deers I can see are just on the Hwy. I do not like female and calf seasons at all by any specieses. 2 weeks ago we let to run away cow , calf and spike moose just becouse its not right to shoot it in my opinion. If there is too many moose or elk , why is not just relocated? I also hunted elk in EK and its not true that people dont like hunters form another regions , I got advices all the time I asked about elk.. So U R wrong again.. I thing most of us hunt becouse we like to see wildlife and it doesn't have to be in the freezer :)

exactly. enough said lol

[Fisher-Dude]

If there is too many moose or elk , why is not just relocated?

Ai-carumba! Are you going to capture and relocate 15,000 elk and about 80,000 whitetails? Where ya gonna put them, and who's going to pay for the damage they do in their new home? When did you join Greenpeace?

[J_T]

Bugler, I have hunted similar area for most of my life and I've listened to the Grandfathers and Uncles talk. The wildlife situation is different in today's world. For sure. There is less useable habitat, there is more human presence than ever before. Hunters are more efficient too.

And after two years of GOS cow elk and whitetail doe GOS and any Mule deer buck harvests, most populations are down (well maybe not Mule Deer). No studies to support that. Just hunter observation. It doesn't mean the number of animals we have now is out of balance or should be higher. A guy can still harvest an animal. But he won't see as many. The Ministry objective to reduce the number of elk from 15,000 to 5,000 in the trench is definitely working. Time to act dynamically and re-evaluate this. The Ministry strategy to create opportunity by opening up Whitetail does is working too.

[bugler]

It is only an opportunity if there is actually something there to hunt. If a youngster was with me the last few times up the bull and sand looking for my moose with the chance of taking a small buck or maybe a whitetail doe (sounds reasonable), he or she would have been sadly disappointed, and bored stiff I'm thinking.

I could shoot a cow elk and whitetail doe with a rifle off of my deck, probably in one day. Wait another day or two and I could shoot a yearling buck and be tagged out. So ya, there are still some critters out there, but I don't believe they are filling up the available habitat right now. And mature bucks seem scarcer than ever.

[6616]

, there are still some critters out there, but I don't believe they are filling up the available habitat right now.

The last thing we want is for the habitat to be "filled up". Ungulate herds at 100% carrying capacity are extremelly vulnerable to winter die-offs and have low productivity to the point where surplus animals available to hunt are very few. It's also very hard on the habitat especially when the winter ranges are shared by domestic grazers. Right now we have several important winter range areas in the EK that are stressed by overgrazing and really need a bit of a rest.

Deer and elk densities at 60 to 70% of carrying capacity is ideal and that's what managers usually establish as population density objectives, productivity is at a peak at that density and animals available to harvest are higher. Habitat will remain in good shape and the herds will have the ability to withstand severe winter conditions without risking massive die-offs.

[40incher]

Protectionism is an ugly thing that detracts from good management.

This is an interesting thread that can be replicated in other regions, but seems to be very prevalent in the EK with moose and the WK with elk. In the north Peace it's Stone`s sheep, and in the Cariboo it's mule deer. In Skeena we welcome all hunters, and generally our numbers are doing very well except in the Nisga'a Wildlife Management Area where the moose population has crashed despite severe restrictions on licensed resident hunting and no guides. So there`s not much resident-guide finger pointing. There will be no hunting of moose by licensed hunters in this area in 2012, and likely forever. Hmmmm........ Oh yeah, I forgot. Protectionism of the worst type.

The words to remember are "learn to share". To exclude is to divide.

The sad thing is that while we are at each others throats the self-indulged bureaucrats thrive. We are losing our opportunities peck by peck thanks to them and I don`t see things changing anytime soon.

[GoatGuy]

So ya, there are still some critters out there, but I don't believe they are filling up the available habitat right now. .

The bottom end of the bull was filled at one point and now it's a big patch of weeds. In the long-term we're better off having more habitat and fewer animals if we want too pass the torch on to the next generation.

[GoatGuy]

These threads are always interesting. In the areas we've been hunting in the EK we've never seen so many walking garbage cans, errr I mean elk and we aren't even looking for them. Note: this isn't from cattle!

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/IMG_17074.JPG

[bugler]

Hmmm...40inch not sure where the protectionism theory came from, I don't think anyone here suggested that we should be saving it for locals.

6616, I realize there is such a thing as overpopulation, resulting in poor productivity and big die offs in bad winter. I don't think we are at 60% carrying capacity either.

[Fisher-Dude]

Hmmm...40inch not sure where the protectionism theory came from, I don't think anyone here suggested that we should be saving it for locals.

6616, I realize there is such a thing as overpopulation, resulting in poor productivity and big die offs in bad winter. I don't think we are at 60% carrying capacity either.

We had better winter range in 1997 and about the same number of elk and way fewer whitetails than we have now, and we lost ~60% of them in the 1997 winter die off. We're teetering on the edge of a disaster right now.

[6616]

I don't think we are at 60% carrying capacity either.

Then what do you attribute the range conditions shown in GG's photo to....?

[GoatGuy]

I don't think we are at 60% carrying capacity either.

What do you base this opinion on?

[rocksteady]

For some reason GG your picture is just a red X....???

[GoatGuy]

For some reason GG your picture is just a red X....???

Works for me?

Maybe it was the Cranbrook blocker??

[rocksteady]

OUCH !!!! That hurts :)

[budismyhorse]

I think a lot of guys want to drive around in some kind of eutopia with game bounding around on every ridge......everyone was used to seeing this the last few years. We'd have to be burning winter range at an incredible rate to keep up with expanding game populations.....in reality that isn't going to happen. Politics/funding ect....

SO, the appropriate population level isn't going to be like that...........hunting will become tougher and people are just going to have to deal with it.

And the ebb and flow of game management will continue on.

I just don't see "fewer" animals around as a problem......

Maybe its because I cut my teeth hunting in the early-mid 80's in the upper Elk where most everything was hunted at somepoint. You counted yourself lucky to see something just standing there ....ever. Still got hooked on hunting even though I had to work hard and endure many days out where you didn't have a sniff at something.

[rocksteady]

We'd have to be burning winter range at an incredible rate to keep up with expanding game populations.....in reality that isn't going to happen. Politics/funding ect....

.

I will try my hardest to cure that one BUD, just wait and see what happens next spring :)

[budismyhorse]

oh I know you will Mike!

But you have to admit..........it will be a far cry from what the place needs.....

Unless you are burning from grassmere to Invermere that is ;)

[6616]

It's interesting that many EK residents deplore the mule deer numbers today compared to the mid-'80's yet they often resist strategies designed to control elk and white tailed deer populations. This was demonstrated at the latest EK BCWF regional meeting where an increase in the WTD bag limit was not supported. What people need to realize is that there's only enough habitat out there for a fixed number of ungulates, they can be WTD, mule deer, or elk, but the total number of all species combined is limited by the available habitat base. There is spatial and forage availability competition between these species and mule deer are weakest competitors of the three. Yet we allow WTD numbers to continue to expand, elk numbers are still very high, and we wonder why there are fewer mule deer. High elk and WTD numbers continue to support high predator populations and again mule deer pay the price since they are the most vulnerable species to predation. The writing is on the wall folks, if you want more mule deer we need to make room for them by lowering WTD and elk populations. Even then, we are never going to see populations peaks like we had in the mid-'80s when we had much more habitat, higher quality habitat, lots of logging creating habitat, very few predators, etc.

Someone mentioned Pickering Hills, that area used to be one of the most important winter ranges for ungulates in the EK. The area has been so compromised by combined elk and domestic cattle over-grazing that it's going to take a couple decades to regain it's original winter range carrying capacity. Same with Premier Ridge which was also mentioned, only up there it's forest ingrowth that has compromised that habitat. We just don't have the habitat anymore to support ungulate numbers like we had in the '80's.

[rocksteady]

But you have to admit..........it will be a far cry from what the place needs.....

Unless you are burning from grassmere to Invermere that is ;)

I have contemplated that for a burn, but don't think I would get the support from above :)

If we get a nice long burn window next year hopefully we will be able to do significant habitat rejuvenation...Baby steps...any acreage burned is better than zero acres burned...

[6616]

oh I know you will Mike!

But you have to admit..........it will be a far cry from what the place needs.....

Unless you are burning from grassmere to Invermere that is ;)

Yes, it will take time, but if we can step-up the burning program to the level of burning 3000 to 4000 ha per year we will be able to catch up eventually.

As more and more area is treated by the ecosystem restoration program, the requirements for periodic maintenance burns might become a bigger challenge, but we won't have to worry about that for a few years yet.

Right now the development Mike is working on has the potential to be the biggest breakthrough the ERP has seen in years, I am very optimistic for the future.

[budismyhorse]

I agree! Its welcome news that is for sure. I used to work in the forest industry 10 years ago in the Picks..........good lord the fir ingrowth was staggering back then.

[bugler]

Based on what we and everyone else I talk to are seeing, we'd have to be down to about 10% of the mid 80's winter range to be at carrying capacity, or even 60% cc if that is considered
'ideal'. I know it is different, but it doesn't look that different to me.

And GG's picture...I don't know, my first guess is an outfitters camp at the base of a slide. Don't look like winter range to me.

[6616]

Based on what we and everyone else I talk to are seeing, we'd have to be down to about 10% of the mid 80's winter range to be at carrying capacity, or even 60% cc if that is considered
'ideal'. I know it is different, but it doesn't look that different to me.

And GG's picture...I don't know, my first guess is an outfitters camp at the base of a slide. Don't look like winter range to me.

There's no denying we have fewer animals now than 25 years ago, but look at it this way: There is about 250,000 Ha of NDT4 (IDF and PP) potential winter range in the Rocky mountain Trench and Elk Valley. 25 years ago there was about 150,000 Ha of that in a good state of suitability for wildlife winter range, the rest was in managed forest. Over the last 25 years we have lost about 40,000 Ha of that to forest ingrowth and encroachment, a further 12,000 Ha which is now behind wildlife exclusion fences, plus a further undetermined amount to urban expansion and rural development. To lessen the impact the ecosystem restoration program has about 25,000 Ha under perscription, but only about 10,000 to 15,000 Ha of that has been brought to full final stage restoration (prescribed burn). So the net is about 100,000 Ha or about 66% of what we had 25 years ago. Much of that (like Pickering Hills) is at reduced suitability due to over-grazing, noxious weeds, etc., so the overall carrying capacity of the current available winter range is probably about 50% to 60% of what we had 25 years ago. In other words we will reach 100% carrying capacity with roughly half the ungulate numbers we had 25 years ago.

We were at 100% carrying capacity during the mid-'80's, and we're near that now and we should be at 60 to 70% carrying capacity which means ideally we should have fewer than half the ungulate numbers we had 25 years ago if we want to protect the habitat and prevent severe winter die-offs, etc.

The solution: http://www.trench-er.com/ and http://www.trenchsociety.com/setup/content/Blueprint_for_Action_2006.pdf

[bugler]

I'll buy that we can handle about half of what we had in the 80's, but I'm seeing maybe 1/3rd of the the elk and whitetail and maybe 10% of the muleys that we did back then. I know that is just anecdotal, personal observation, not scientific, but the "science" in the local wildlife branch leaves plenty to be desired also.

I recall a time when they continually put out more cow elk tags each year because the hunter success wasn't what was expected, therefore we were not killing enough of them. It did not seem to occur to them that the low success might have been due to a much lower population then the computer was telling them we had, until we had a change of biologists.

More recently, grizzly permits in 4-21, 4-22 were cut to zero because there were a few incidental kills which used up the aah. It does not seem to occur to them that we have a few incidental kills because there are a freakin lot of them out there. If the official numbers are even close then the few bull river griz left are equipped with wings because they sure get around.

I want to believe them, I really do. Believe it or not I am the eternal optimist among the people I hunt with. But my eyes just ain't seeing it.

And I'm with ya on the solution. Every time I see smoke in the spring the chorus of "Disco Inferno" starts running through my head. Rocksteady, let us know when we can help drop some matches or whatever. Your news does give me some optimism that we might see Serengeti again.

[bugler]

We had better winter range in 1997 and about the same number of elk and way fewer whitetails than we have now, and we lost ~60% of them in the 1997 winter die off. We're teetering on the edge of a disaster right now.

Oh, I almost forgot. Har de har, that is a good one!!!

[d6dan]

So is it just us, getting old and weak eyed, or are there other EK hunters who remember the 80's and wonder what the hell happened?

I grew up over there in the late 60's and hunted those same hills up and into the early 90's.
I do agree with you. Hell, I can still see those herds of elk and deer on pickering hills,premier etc, wintering grounds. I remember in Elko, (the old FS station) where herds of elk came back and forth through the fields and across the highway all year long, now you will be lucky to see a couple of animals. I used to hunt the Elk Valley every year in the late 80's and always got my elk, so what happened?. Beats me?. Too many roads?. Winter diseases?,Too many liberal seasons and bad decisions by the ministry of Enviroment on cow/calves? who knows, regardless, Its not the same as it was and i doubt if it will ever be like it once was.

[Islandeer]

Well gang,I don't live in the EK but have hunted one area in 4-1 and 4-2 since the late 70's. So we see way more elk than then,in fact it was a big deal to see eld down Gold creek then,now well you locals know there is a slew of them there. Whities are way to thick all over,especially newgate/goldcreek etc. But this isn't news, we find whitie bucks every where and take some nice 4pt mulies in the 4pt season. And the last 3 or 4 yrs we have seen a hell of a lot more mulies in our muley haunts. We don't usually bang 180 class but nice bucks have and will fall again this season.

So burn more of the trench,triple the whitie kill and kill way more elk, you can't have everything .... love the "coastal warrier" handle. lol!!

[j270wsm]

well i was hunting in east kootneeys with 3 other hunters and we got 3 6 point elk within 4 days and also got 1 4 point muley and 2 white tails but they were the only game we saw talked with a lot of hunters and couldnt belevie we had such good luck
Did you shoot all 3 deer? Were they all in the same region?

[Fisher-Dude]

Hang on! I gotta get some popcorn!

[Gateholio]

Did you shoot all 3 deer? Were they all in the same region?

he said he was with 3 other hunters and says "we" rather than "I"

Seems a good indication that he didn't shoot all 3 deer himself.

[Islandeer]

Did you shoot all 3 deer? Were they all in the same region?

Bookem Dano ...

[tys]

Does no one consider that us harvesting thousands of animals a year has no impact on the population you have got to be kidding. I heard from a CO on the WK elk season that the theory was if they get them shot off there will be less to manage. He was certainly not for it but this was the cheap ass govt. idea on the season i guess.

[6616]

Does no one consider that us harvesting thousands of animals a year has no impact on the population you have got to be kidding. I heard from a CO on the WK elk season that the theory was if they get them shot off there will be less to manage. He was certainly not for it but this was the cheap ass govt. idea on the season i guess.

R-Selected species like elk and deer have natural reproduction rates and recruitment rates that usually exceed natural mortality rates by a wide margin, so the natural cycle without management will be uncontolled herd expansion to the point of a massive die-off, then the cycle starts over. Boom and bust cycles are not socially suitable in todays world due to habitat destruction, agriculture depredation, etc, so hunting to balance growth with natural mortality is a very useful tool. Since half the annual calf crop are males, and the adult male component of a population is usually significantly lower than the adult female component, there are many more surplus male juveniles than females. (Surplus defined as having more recruitment than mortality) In order to stabilize an expanding population or reduce excessive numbers harvest of females is often required since due to the above fact harvest of males alone will not stabilize a population that is in the rapid expansion mode.

Another negative impact of boom and bust cycles is that predator populations will peak during boom cycles and then have a significant impact on other species. An example is the high WTD and elk numbers in the EK are supporting a high number of predators which could be negatively impacting mule deer populations.

The idea that F&W has less work to do because of the WK elk GOS is incorrect, in fact annual post-season surveys are now being done as well as annual composition surveys to monitor the GOS, so the GOS has actually increased the work load and always does. A GOS always requires more monitoring and management activity than an restrictive LEH. Under a GOS F&W has to actually manage the population instead of simply managing hunters as is the case with a highly restrictive LEH like we formerly had in the WK.

[pescado]

Good stuff 6616. The predator numbers do seem to be high now in the E.K. Just back from my Muley hunt where I found the Muley numbers to be not bad. Like with my Elk hunt earlier this year the Bear numbers, both Grizz & Black, are up and so are the Wolf. Hard to hunt anywhere without seeing fresh Wolf sign. Shot a lone Wolf that was hanging around a group of Elk, big dark male. The Bear sightings seem to be higher for me this year than I ever remember seeing. I guess it's just where we are at in the cycle in the E.K.

[Fisher-Dude]

Does no one consider that us harvesting thousands of animals a year has no impact on the population you have got to be kidding. I heard from a CO on the WK elk season that the theory was if they get them shot off there will be less to manage. He was certainly not for it but this was the cheap ass govt. idea on the season i guess.

From a population of 5,000 autumn WK elk, about 350 - 400 are shot. The bull : cow ratio in the WK is as high as 66 : 100 while only 20 : 100 is a very healthy ratio for successful impregnation of all cows. Then 2,000 - 2,500 calves are born the next spring. Explain what impact the 350 - 400 animals shot in the fall has on the herd.

[tys]

I would like to know where you get your numbers and if they are correct, if so ok. As a resident, working in the backcountry and having hunted the WK for elk, deer and moose it just doesn't seem the animals are there like they're "counts" say they are. Maybe i am just frustrated having my elk hunt busted twice by ATV's blasting the roads this year. I have just grown up hearing so many stories from my grandpa about the abundance of animals and how fun the hunting was. Now it seems like the first four spike muley you come across you want to shoot, cause it might be the only one you see. I grew up in the sticks having no elk in the area, 15 years later when the elk came down, 78 were counted two fields down from my parents. The season opened, 9 bulls were taken last year, and only two this year. Those are only the ones i heard of mainly taken by locals. Spent a bit of time in the area this year and the sign and activlty was nothing like last year. Yes they did wise up but 10 bulls taken out of a heard of 80 in one year, i don't know. I love to hunt just concerned that things get over hunted and shot out that all.

[6616]

Why do hunters have such a mistrust of wildlife professionals? Seems everyone who ever walked a game trail thinks he knows more than the biologists. BC has stable or expanding populations of nearly all game animals today, several species are at their highest population level of modern times. Sure there have been ups and downs, there always will be, but if you really look at it those have usually been driven by factors beyond the biologists control, like weather events or political interference. So overall, those biologists must be doing a pretty good job and must know what they are doing............yes/no...................????

[Fisher-Dude]

Maybe i am just frustrated having my elk hunt busted twice by ATV's blasting the roads this year.

Your motivation for dissing the science of game management is quite obvious: you don't want others to play in your sandbox. You're all about social aspects and not at all about game management aspects. I have to wonder why someone who is saying that the elk are getting "shot out" is actually out there, trying to shoot an elk.


I love to hunt just concerned that things get over hunted and shot out that all.

6 point elk seasons are foolproof. There is statistically NO way that an elk population could ever get "shot out" under such a system.

You better ask yourself how the 770 elk in the Okanagan have survived decades of GOS and are exapnding, in much more accessable terrain than the WK. The 5,000 WK elk are just fine, and will not have any conservation concern with the 6 point seasons.


The population stats I use are from the ministry stratified counts.

[tys]

Yes i am obviously a little jealous who wouldn't be, seeing tons of guys in your back forty. However i am not dissing their knowledge of game management, but really how hard is it for the hundreds of truck hunters out to drive into a cut block and hammer a muley. It just seems that with the amount of guys out there today and the amount of access to every mountain it hard for me to think they stand a chance. I had a buddy that started into the wildlife program and he said that fish and wildlife is huge coin for the province and that GOS alot about the money aspect, so it is kinda hard for me to think its all about wildlife management. We are a society of greed and that is what makes most of the decisions whatever the issue being. Going back to what i heard from a CO was if they have a bear problem first should call the police. The next step if they will not deal with it is to get a MOF vehicle to deal with the problem, and that was just the example he used. He did state that they needed to shoot some of the WK elk off for less management in the area. There closest CO is an hour to an hour and half of me and there is alot of area unpatrolled, i saw the CO once last year opening weekend of elk and that was it, and not at all this year. He did not agree with the amount of area he had to cover while here for the weekend, and its all a money issue. I do want to believe and you numbers, you seem to be well versed on the subject but i just hope the management of the wildlife comes before making or saving money thats all.

770 elk doesn't seem like alot for the okanagan either does it?

[bugler]

Why do hunters have such a mistrust of wildlife professionals? Seems everyone who ever walked a game trail thinks he knows more than the biologists. BC has stable or expanding populations of nearly all game animals today, several species are at their highest population level of modern times. Sure there have been ups and downs, there always will be, but if you really look at it those have usually been driven by factors beyond the biologists control, like weather events or political interference. So overall, those biologists must be doing a pretty good job and must know what they are doing............yes/no...................????

If someone can explain to me how the last few grizzlies in 4-22 managed to put their tracks in every drainage I've been in since it snowed then I might have a better understanding as to why there were no permits issued for them last spring. While they are at it, they can explain why I've seen more griz than moose, and everyone I talk to has the same story.

It's not that I don't trust them, I doubt very much that they are purposely coming up with bad estimates. It's just that what we are seeing don't jive with what we're being told, and some past examples give me cause to be just a wee bit doubtful. I can't help it when we are just not seeing the game.

[budismyhorse]

If someone can explain to me how the last few grizzlies in 4-22 managed to put their tracks in every drainage I've been in since it snowed then I might have a better understanding as to why there were no permits issued for them last spring. While they are at it, they can explain why I've seen more griz than moose, and everyone I talk to has the same story.



Bugler.......are you involved with any local Rod and Gun club? There has been lots of info passed along regarding that decision with the bear hunt. There was even a large meeting in Fernie that was open to anyone who wanted to hear it from the Bio responsible.

They set a harvest number in a 5 year period and stick to it. For a certain few MU's that number was exceeded because of train kills, hunter kills (guided and resident), terminations at the hands of the CO's ect ect.

end of hunt until that 5 year period is over.

FWIW the harvest number is dreadfully low.......but thats what the politics and pressures from ENGO's will do for you.

[bugler]

My point is if they had a clue what the real numbers were they would up the harvest level and put out a few more tags I believe the harvest number was exceeded because there are waaaaayy more griz out there than they think. And I have a suspicion that the opposite is true on the ungulate numbers.

[aggiehunter]

Bugler....just quit buglin' and listen to Fisher Dudes BCWF Mantra which goes as follows.."if there aint' enough game then increase the bag limit...then they'll show up....

[coach]

Bugler....just quit buglin' and listen to Fisher Dudes BCWF Mantra which goes as follows.."if there aint' enough game then increase the bag limit...then they'll show up....

Says a guy who's all about discouraging new hunters, social management and restrictive seasons..

Bugler, I suspect much of the overly conservative grizzly management strategy in 4-22 has more to do with social reasons than science. As explained by budismyhorse, above.