Pic: 2 Bulls Kamloops

[keithb7]

Just thought I'd contribute a photo and add to what makes this place great. Yesterday my son and I came up on 2 moose. MU 3-28. We were out for Mulies and Grouse. They are still out there for someone...

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/308764_10150430688782160_518847159_10522797_721385 665_n.jpg

As close as we got, with camera zoomed all the way in. Hard to see in this shot, but the guy on the left had a much larger rack. They stopped a looked at me several times.
There was plenty of time to drop your choice.

[4 point]

Wwas either one an immy?

[keithb7]

I am fairly in-experienced, but looked to me like it had more than 2 tines on both antlers. You can see below here.
Same photo as above, just zoomed and cropped.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-WNEkkWE26nk/TqREdPqPHkI/AAAAAAAAAtE/Dts9gY4nENk/s634/Close%252520Up%252520Moose.JPG

[Jagermeister]

No immature there by the looks of it. But, if you are seeing bulls together now, then there is a chance that there will be others with these two as well.

[keithb7]

I'm learning, and maybe this is a good time to ask... Why only immature bulls open? I assume this has something to do with managing the moose population in a particular region. How does having an open season, only on immature bulls promote a balance of the species? Maybe a dumb question but I'm curious. Taking a immature bull now, or waiting a few years to when it has a big rack to take it, what is the difference? Maybe it stops the trophy hunters who just want a big mount and could care less about eating the meat? Fill me in...Thanks.

[swampthing]

They want to keep the big breeding bulls out there. There is plenty of immys out there that make it to grow up.

[Sitkaspruce]

Not to Hijack this thread but.....

It has nothing to do with breeding bulls, it has a lot to do with G/O's and their huge push to keep moose on LEH.

There is more moose and less hunters than there was in the 80's, when it was GOS.

Most places in BC can have a GOS and still have good numbers of breading bulls. The immy thing is a tease to let hunters think they have an opportunity at hunting moose.

Hijack over....

Cheers

SS

[MuleyMadness]

I'm learning, and maybe this is a good time to ask... Why only immature bulls open? I assume this has something to do with managing the moose population in a particular region. How does having an open season, only on immature bulls promote a balance of the species? Maybe a dumb question but I'm curious. Taking a immature bull now, or waiting a few years to when it has a big rack to take it, what is the difference? Maybe it stops the trophy hunters who just want a big mount and could care less about eating the meat? Fill me in...Thanks.

Basically the two year mortality rate of moose is very high, and the immature bulls aren't as a rule, breeding any cows anyways. As such, having the large bulls on LEH only allows them more productive years of breeding than what we would see with a GOS for them. This way, the breeders remain relatively intact. There is a good chance that immature bull you see in October won't live to see the following spring anyways, and eventually reach breeding age, so rather than feed the coyotes and the wolves, it gives people a chance at them without really affecting the breeding stock.

[Jagermeister]

Immature bull harvesting is a result of an initiative by the BCG&O in the late '70s and early '80s. The guides were concerned that the average of the bull moose in the Omeica portion (7A) of Region 7 were only 3 to 4 years of age. These bull were adorned with antlers typical of that age. It was hard for a guide to sell a hunt with inferior bone in the younger bulls. So they enlisted Dr. Tony Bebenik, a renowned biologist in wildlife animal husbandry to convince the government and the resident hunter to enter into a strategy whereby mature bulls would only be availabe through LEH, but immature bulls would continue under a general open season (GOS).
As a result of this initiative, Region 5, which was not under the LEH, sustained greater than normal hunting pressure due to the regulation change in Region 7A. Eventually, Region 5 could no longer sustain the pressure and moose hunting had to be curtailed due to the dwindling numbers of moose. Since that curtailment, the moose populations have rebounded and probably could support a GOS of immature as well as the current LEH. However, pressure from the Indians and the guides has stymied all efforts to gain the immature opening back for the resident hunter.
As an after thought. MOE decided that the moose seasons or openings throughtout the province should be similar so as not to create undue pressure on any Region.

[MuleyMadness]

Not to Hijack this thread but.....

It has nothing to do with breeding bulls, it has a lot to do with G/O's and their huge push to keep moose on LEH.

There is more moose and less hunters than there was in the 80's, when it was GOS.


Most places in BC can have a GOS and still have good numbers of breading bulls. The immy thing is a tease to let hunters think they have an opportunity at hunting moose.

Hijack over....

Cheers

SS

That is 100% true in most parts of BC Sitka, but not really in the Kamloops region. Here it's a certain category of 'hunters' who are the problem and a need to account for their large harvests...as well, to my knowledge, there are no active G/O's anywhere within 3-28/3-29, 3-18/19, etc so it's not them who pressured the Ministry.

[krazy]

Basically the two year mortality rate of moose is very high, and the immature bulls aren't as a rule, breeding any cows anyways. As such, having the large bulls on LEH only allows them more productive years of breeding than what we would see with a GOS for them. This way, the breeders remain relatively intact. There is a good chance that immature bull you see in October won't live to see the following spring anyways, and eventually reach breeding age, so rather than feed the coyotes and the wolves, it gives people a chance at them without really affecting the breeding stock.

This is an interesting theory and the first time I have heard of it ... would like to know more ... any data to back it up?

[Sitkaspruce]

That is 100% true in most parts of BC Sitka, but not really in the Kamloops region. Here it's a certain category of 'hunters' who are the problem and a need to account for their large harvests...as well, to my knowledge, there are no active G/O's anywhere within 3-28/3-29, 3-18/19, etc so it's not them who pressured the Ministry.

It is the GO for all of region 3/4/5/6/7/8 who are pushing this BS, not individual GO in a certain area. IF, and that is a big IF, we were to have GOS all across the province for moose at the same time, it would spread out the pressure and there would be lots of moose who would make it through the season and to the next. Spread out the hunters and there will not be the pressure that guides think there would be.


Basically the two year mortality rate of moose is very high, and the immature bulls aren't as a rule, breeding any cows anyways. As such, having the large bulls on LEH only allows them more productive years of breeding than what we would see with a GOS for them. This way, the breeders remain relatively intact. There is a good chance that immature bull you see in October won't live to see the following spring anyways, and eventually reach breeding age, so rather than feed the coyotes and the wolves, it gives people a chance at them without really affecting the breeding stock.

I think you might be mixing up 1.5 yo bulls with calves. Moose who make it through their first year have a lot higher survival rate than calves. If we go by your theory, then a 1.5 yo bull with 4x4 antlers will still die??? Or is it just 2x2 or less who die that winter?? I have personally seen a 4x4 bull mount and breed a cow, so they do not need to be a fully mature bull to breed.

Good discussion, maybe we should open this on a new thread as we have hijacked the original post.....

Cheers

SS

[MuleyMadness]

It is the GO for all of region 3/4/5/6/7/8 who are pushing this BS, not individual GO in a certain area. IF, and that is a big IF, we were to have GOS all across the province for moose at the same time, it would spread out the pressure and there would be lots of moose who would make it through the season and to the next. Spread out the hunters and there will not be the pressure that guides think there would be.



I think you might be mixing up 1.5 yo bulls with calves. Moose who make it through their first year have a lot higher survival rate than calves. If we go by your theory, then a 1.5 yo bull with 4x4 antlers will still die??? Or is it just 2x2 or less who die that winter?? I have personally seen a 4x4 bull mount and breed a cow, so they do not need to be a fully mature bull to breed.

Good discussion, maybe we should open this on a new thread as we have hijacked the original post.....

Cheers

SS

I agree that if we were to have GOS, we would definitely have to have GOS for the entire province, or at least 3, 5, 6, 7a/7b, and at the same time. Otherwise we would end up in the same place as region 5 got into. As far as the 2 year mortality rates I think you misunderstand what I mean. What I mean by 2 year mortality rate is not that a lot of moose die in their second year, but a lot of moose don't make it through their second year to get to the mature stage of life...whether they die in their first 6 months, first year, first 18 months, etc isn't what I meant...just that a lot of them don't live past 2 (and most die in their first winter). Like I said, immature bulls as a rule aren't the breeding stock, but that's not to say they won't get em some if there are no mature bulls around to get er done.

Don't get me wrong, I would support a full GOS if I thought the populations (at least around here) would support it, but I just don't see that as the case. No scientific data mind you, but from my time in the bush in good moose country, I suspect there just aren't enough moose to sustain that (again around here)....but again, I don't believe that's an issue with G/Os as much as it is with a certain user group.

Maybe we should start a new thread to discuss, and I would like to hear about other regions beyond the 3 and 5 that I hunt all the time, to the 6, 7a/7b, etc to see what people think of the moose populations in those areas. I talked to a guy in Dawson Creek a few months back who told me 'there are barely any moose left around here' about 2 hours before I counted over a dozen, so I wonder how much of it is perception and how much is a fewer amount of animals than say, before the tick kills, but still a hell of a lot more than most people in the province still see.

[krazy]

.... As far as the 2 year mortality rates I think you misunderstand what I mean. What I mean by 2 year mortality rate is not that a lot of moose die in their second year, but a lot of moose don't make it through their second year to get to the mature stage of life...whether they die in their first 6 months, first year, first 18 months, etc isn't what I meant...just that a lot of them don't live past 2 (and most die in their first winter). ....

hmmm ..... I can see the mortality rate being higher over their first winter (ie. for calves) but don't see how / why after that it would be different regardless of age. I've done some googling and can't find anything to support any different. The other interesting (baffling/conflicting) situation is how they do it completely opposite for deer (ie. protect the 1.5 year olds and open up the matures - 4 points or better). You'd think if the 1.5's were optimal to cull for moose that the same would hold true for deer??? I think Sitka hit the nail on the head and it's much more about the politics than the science. Oh and yes sorry we are hijacking I will refrain from posting more in this thread. Thanks for sharing the pictures Keith!

[Sonof000Buck]

Tell me where!
I have a draw LEH for 3-29 any bull.
That'd be nice ! Ends this month 31st.

[Jelvis]

It's a copy from Sweden's plan for moose (called elk) in Europe. :-D
In region 7 way back when they tried to save moose cows for the first time they made an antler (bull only) and this back fired in the bio's face.
The bulls were shot now even more because cow was closed in GOS for the very first time.
So it went wrong and the breeding bulls ( four and a half and up ) were lamb basted to overkill anywhere near old roads.
Now we say, "Houston we got a problem."
Now after much study and brain storming since the GOS was mixed up and hard to control sustainable breeding bulls and cow moose. B.C. adopted the European plan known as limited entry hunting, LEH. Limited Entry Hunting ..................
Now the LEH system's game is to control and limit when needed the number of mature cows and breeding bulls available. Done by changing the GOS to LEH and hope the user groups as a whole play along with the rules and regulations concerning the ongoing goal of sustainable population numbers for moose which is what we all want.
Jelvaineous

[Jagermeister]

It is the GO for all of region 3/4/5/6/7/8 who are pushing this BS, not individual GO in a certain area. IF, and that is a big IF, we were to have GOS all across the province for moose at the same time, it would spread out the pressure and there would be lots of moose who would make it through the season and to the next. Spread out the hunters and there will not be the pressure that guides think there would be.



I think you might be mixing up 1.5 yo bulls with calves. Moose who make it through their first year have a lot higher survival rate than calves. If we go by your theory, then a 1.5 yo bull with 4x4 antlers will still die??? Or is it just 2x2 or less who die that winter?? I have personally seen a 4x4 bull mount and breed a cow, so they do not need to be a fully mature bull to breed.

Good discussion, maybe we should open this on a new thread as we have hijacked the original post.....

Cheers

SS
I totally agree with this post, especially the blue highlight area.

Just before Region 5 went into fully closed GOS, there was an opening (GOS) for any bull from the 15th to the end of October.

At the time, I was living in Quesnel and I can tell you that there was a hugh influx of non-local hunters.

You know those secret little places that only the residents know about, usually closer to town? Well, those secret pockets were secret no longer. If a hunter from out of the area was a little behind in arriving, he or they would be forced to find a new area and thus many were hunting closer to the residential areas.
Opening a GOS season for moose in Region 5 would ease the hunting pressure in Regions 3, 7 and 8 and may also ease the pressure in Region 4.

The hunters in Region 5 cannot get a moose opening on their own. It needs the support of the hunters from other areas.

If you belong to a Rod & Gun or Fish & Game club, lobby your members to present a resolution to the BCWF for consideration at the next AGM. It matters not if the resolutions are duplicated by many or all the clubs. Actually, it would probably be most beneficial to have a multitude of similar resolutions presented for consideration.

The BCWF are now accepting resolutions for the next AGM, so let us get the wagon rolling.

My apologies to the OP for taking part in the hijack of your thread. You have been presented with much more than you expected from a seemingly simple question.

[Jelvis]

That spot in the picture I've driven by numerous times in 3-28 haha yah mon.
.. Whitewood Lake area is close lol, no brainer. Lot's a hunters camped by Poison/Whitewood.
.. Why? lol. I guess there's no moose eh? Lot's a hunters because they don't see nun.
Jelvis .. Moose city center with mule deer and grouse .. Be there don't be a dickslick

[BCHunterTV]

my friend has 3-29 for Nov

[keithb7]

No worries about hi-jacking this thread. I have enjoyed it. I posted the open question about immature bulls. I got exactly
what I was hoping for. Several great responses from those with lots more experience than me. Thanks.