Bad bounce?

[Black Bird]

Hi there,

I was out hunting on Monday and came across a 2x2 black tailed buck. He was about 70m away and I was about 10-12m above him. The buck was facing about 2/3rd away from me and looking back at me (facing left). I took aim just below his shoulder blade and fired. Boom, the deer drops right where he was hit.

Now - fast forward a couple of hours later of dragging the buck through a logging cut and back to my cabin (I am glad I have been doing all those p90X workouts:mrgreen:). It wasn't until I got the skin off of him that I saw the damage...

The bullet passed just beneath his left shoulder blade and must have hit something and bounced through just under his upper right shoulder blade. But, the damage on his right side seemed disproportionately massive. I lost a good chunk of his shoulder area to gun shot damage. Most of the shoulder area from partway down from the shoulder socket up to the shoulder blade was a mess of meat, bone and tendons.

So, I was firing a 6.5mm x 55 SE from 70m away. The bullet was traveling downwards and entered just under his left shoulder blade and then somehow managed to move slightly upwards out of his right shoulder socket area. Strange, or just to be expected when the bullet meets the bone?

Cheers,
BB

PS. Ironically, I switched to 6.5mm x 55SE because I felt I was doing too much damage to the deer meet with my 7mm Rem. Mag.

[madrona sh]

What bullet?

[Spy]

Any Pictures?

[Black Bird]

No pictures. I was by myself and didn't have my camera with me. I suppose I can take a picture of the shoulder area before I butcher it. I will get around to butchering probably Friday night.

Cheers,
BB

[todbartell]

meat damage can happen when you fire a bullet into bones and meat.

[Shooter]

meat damage can happen when you fire a bullet into bones and meat.


Thats exactly why I always aim for hide.

[303carbine]

I hit a big bull moose with a 215 grain out of my 303 jungle carbine, the bullet hit a rib and turned 45 degrees and was under the hide on the offside.
Bullets can do weird things when encountering bone, nothing is a certainty while hunting.

[LYKTOHUNT]

meat damage can happen when you fire a bullet into bones and meat.

From a veritable wealth of knowledge concerning all things to do with ballistics, bullets ,bullet performance, firearms, windage and elevation tables, etc to this profound statement.
It just about wraps it up nicely, so there you are, nothing more n eeds to be learned from now on.
That is very funny shit.

[todbartell]

From a veritable wealth of knowledge concerning all things to do with ballistics, bullets ,bullet performance, firearms, windage and elevation tables, etc to this profound statement.
It just about wraps it up nicely, so there you are, nothing more n eeds to be learned from now on.
That is very funny shit.

funny things can happen when you shoot copper/lead into meat and bones. TSX, Sciroccos, Accubonds, Partitions, GMX, Etips, Interbonds, etc just perform a bit more reliable under all sorts of situations. But you can get odd performance still sometimes, even from mild cartridges with heavy for caliber bullets such as a 6.5x55

[Johnny G1]

Should shoot them in the head at that distance, no meat damage.

[sapper]

Sounds like a shot from the book depository if you ask me. Perfectly logical, I saw it explained on Seinfeld.

[Darksith]

I have heard that the velocity of the bullet also plays a big part in the amount of damage a bullet can/will cause. The faster the bullet, the more potential to make "jello" outta the meat.

[Mr. Dean]

meat damage can happen when you fire a bullet into bones and meat.

This is a good summarization. One little knick is all it takes.


Another possibility is core separation from the jacket due to a multitude of variables..... Don't sweat it. If the round has historical, likable results, carry on. If it doesn't, move on.

[Mr. Dean]

I have heard that the velocity of the bullet also plays a big part in the amount of damage a bullet can/will cause. The faster the bullet, the more potential to make "jello" outta the meat.

I haven't found this to be a worry and I use a 300 WinMag as a deer gun. Kills have been as close as 7m, all the way out to over 300m, using 180 grain bullets.... all had negligible meat goo. Bone is the deal breaker, not velocity imo. Internal organs (the real 'wet' tissue), is another matter.

Just my experiences.....

[thepitchedlink]

What bullet and what grain?

[Black Bird]

It was a Sellier & Bellot 6.5 X 55 SE. 140 grain SB (semi-jacketed). From the manufacturer:

"A semi-jacketed bullet consisting of a metallic jacket and a lead core. The lead core is bare in front. When hitting the target, it gets deformed aand produces a mushroom-like shape, which enhances the lethal effect. It is used for most types of rifle cartridges and, depending on caliber weight, it is used for cloven-hoofed game hunting in particular."

The velocity at 70m would have been about 2500 fps and the energy would have been about 1800 foot pounds

Cheers,
BB

[knockturnal]

should shoot them in the head at that distance, no meat damage.

..........x2

[Darksith]

I haven't found this to be a worry and I use a 300 WinMag as a deer gun. Kills have been as close as 7m, all the way out to over 300m, using 180 grain bullets.... all had negligible meat goo. Bone is the deal breaker, not velocity imo. Internal organs (the real 'wet' tissue), is another matter.

Just my experiences.....

Just cause your shooting a 300 doesn't mean your bullet is screaming outta your barrel, but it doesn't mean that its not either. Are you blasting factory ammo? 180g is still a relatively large bullet weight, I shoot a 150g close to max load in my '06, but I guess a lighter faster bullet is probably more likely to break up than a slower heavier bullet. That or I had a bad bullet when my buddy nearly cut his 2010 buck in half with 1 shot.

[Mr. Dean]

Just cause your shooting a 300 doesn't mean your bullet is screaming outta your barrel, but it doesn't mean that its not either. Are you blasting factory ammo? 180g is still a relatively large bullet weight, I shoot a 150g close to max load in my '06, but I guess a lighter faster bullet is probably more likely to break up than a slower heavier bullet. That or I had a bad bullet when my buddy nearly cut his 2010 buck in half with 1 shot.

Hand loads that scream (crony'd) just under 3200 fps, because that's where I get the best accuracy. I use TSX's. Reread my post; I've hit deer at 20' from the barrel... As long as I don't nick a rib, it's pretty clean.

I also help cut LOTS of meat through out the seasons - Bones that get in the way, suck. Bullets that frag, suck too.

[Brian011]

A shot like that I would aim just behind the shoulder in the ribs, that way you miss the shoulder completely and don't run the risk of damaging anything, and still make a good shot through the ribs into the lungs.
I try to stay away from hitting anywhere in the shoulder if possible.

[The Dude]

This is precisely why I'm moving to copper solids. (As soon as my Noslers are all used up on targets :D )

BTW: Brian011: What's the story on that Mulie/Moose hybrid in your avatar? Is there a thread? If not, can you start one?

[dana]

So I need to ask. How much meat is in the front shoulder of a 2x2 blacktail? You are going to be lucky if you can carve one full roast out of that right? So why are you worried about shoulder meat damage? So you lost a roast or a couple packages of stew/stir fry. Not the end of the world.

[Gunner Staal]

Same thing happened to me this weekend. Almost identical. 7mm from 60 ish yds with a 140 grain Nosler Partition. Came apart badly and left a softball size hole in the far side ribcage and blew all kinds of bone into the inside of the front quarter. JEEEEEELLLLO! I am now in the market for a .243 for deer. That or head shots from now on. Of course, a quartering shot is not ideal and this is the potential result. Hind quarters will still be tasty......thats what she said!

[Black Bird]

Brian011 - that is kind of my point. I hit exactly where you are suggesting (if I am reading you right), but the bullet then deflected upwards and did the damage.

Dana - true, there is not a ton of meat in the shoulder area - but it is still a shame that it went to waste. However, my real question was about how much the bullet moved once it got inside the animal. The deflection was just something that I have not seen before (I am pretty new to hunting - this is only my 4th deer that I have shot). Checking out a post in the 'Rifle range, reloading and Gun Talk' forum I saw a fellow who was talking about the damage that small longer diameter bullets do (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?72841-Thinking-about-a-6.5x55-Swede.../page3) and that was exactly what I experienced (ironically, even more than the damage my 7mm Rem Mag did to the last deer I shot from about 30m away).

Gunner Stall, I could see myself thinking the same way about a .243 in the future (especially for black tailed deer) - but I am not confident in my ability to take a head shot out to 70m. I probably could have taken him in the neck, especially the way he was facing me. But I think next time, I would have just tried him a little lower under his armpit.

Cheer,
BB

[Mr. Dean]

Either your bullet frag'ed when it hit a bone or it separated, and the jacket or lead, took a different path. Separation can happen because bone got in the way or there was a defect in manufacturing, or it's a shitty design.

As I said earlier; Don't sweat it.
If it has historically been a good performer, keep using it. If it has left you feeling uneasy, change it.


A long time ago, I developed a round for hunting paper thin-skinned, fur bearing animals. One of the test charges did a bunch of weird shit inside of a rabbit. Seeing as how it didn't blow the animal up into a cloud of red mist, I opted for keeping it.... The round/load combo has since gone on to kill all sorts of critters of the like, without repeating that failure. IMO, it couldn't be more perfect and am glad that I didn't toss it aside.

I have no experience w/ the ammo you're using, so you'll need to console yourself and make the decision of what to do now.

[walks with deer]

If your not shooting real far 30-30 0r 45-70 would have had less damage but yet i have shot a lot of deer and internal bullet bouncing has happened to me wit all guns from my 30-06 to shotgun slug arrows and even 458mag on game hitting bone dumps game but wasres meat...

[Darksith]

I agree that bullets that frag do suck, and I am shooting hornadys GMX, so I shouldn't of experienced the kind of damage I did, but I guess it was either damage caused by bone disintegrating or a bad bullet that simply came apart. Either way I have had both cases of lots of meat loss and almost none.