Sheep country, part III

[mark]

I see on my other thread, a number of you have little patience??? This will be part 3, and the final chapter of my sheep hunting exp.
While the juicy part will come at the end, I'll butter ya up with some cool pics first!
As a shed hunter, I was constantly amused with the giant moose paddles that litter the hills out there, and surprized at the high elevation we found them.
I just had to throw in this pic, a few of the 100 or more I found!

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/sheep_trip_II_007_Small_.jpg
Can you count 12 rams in this pic???? there was actually 14 on the ridge, taken through the spotter at about 1000 yards!

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/12_rams.jpg (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:;)
I spotted these 2 rams bedded in the buckbrush from about 2 miles away, a couple hours later I closed the gap down to 180 yards....tried as I did I couldnt make him legal

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/180_yards.jpg (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:;)
Same with these rams, about 11 here, (pic taken around 800 yards away) but hunting partner spent hours at 300 yards from them, and couldnt find a legal one.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/11_rams.jpg (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:;)

I took this pic from about 300 yards, just through my bino lens, early on in our hunt....couldnt count 8 rings safely on any of them.....never thought to look hard at the 3/4 curl in the middle????

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/8_rams_Small_1.jpg

[mark]

Another nice ram i got very close too!

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/sheep_trip_II_079_Small_.jpg
&

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/sheep_trip_II_084_Small_.jpg
&

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/sheep_trip_II_087_Small_.jpg
As you can see in the above 2 pics, this ram was over the nose on one side, but sadly not the other, in fact his right horn was way bigger and longer than his left, would of killed the net score, soooo.....

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/sheep_trip_II_088_Small_.jpg

[mark]

As I promised, the drama continues on this hunt! So fast forward to the end of our time in the mountains, we had come to the conclusion that there was no legal rams in our area and decided to hunt our way back to our pick up point.
While we saw sheep all day long on our way out, no rams were spotted, early in the day we made it past the point we planned on camping and were making a shot at our lake.....we had just passed the last bit of up hill in our journey, past the areas we had seen sheep on our way in.
We were down in the buckbrush/treeline talking, I just said, sure would be nice to bag one now, as its all down hill from here................
I look to my left, holy $h!t!, a big ram, 40 yards broadside just standing there, not even looking at us???? WTF Im thinking????
Notice 2 things right away, first he's short by an inch on both sides, second he dont look right????
Im starring hard through the binos and could only count 7, buddys binos were in his pack, so he used his scope and saw the same.......No F'ing way, this just isnt fair???
We could see the rams head swaying from side to side a bit (not normal) then he tried to walk, he could barely walk as his hind leg was blown off, hanging by a thread!
That rams phuawked I yelled......buddys says should we down him??? Midas well, he's dead anyways......so he dumps him!

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/sheep_trip_II_055_Small_.jpg
heres the carnage, the lower part of his leg was totally rotten, maggots flies, stunk to high hell, the top part totally raw, still leaking blood!
The ram was very skinny, no fat, very dehydrated, even his eyes were pitted like a golf ball, instead of smooth and glossy, he was a long ways from water. The more we took him apart, the more we assured ourselves we did the right thing!
So heres the ram, and no I wasnt so happy I took my pant off, it was hot, so I was wearing shorts!

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/sheep_trip_II_057_Small_.jpg
Heres the question, did we do the right thing?????
Would you have done the same, or left him for the wolves???
This pic is a better look than we had at 40 yards.....is he legal by age (as he's not by curl I assure you)
Before the saints go picking up the phone, I assure you we packed him out and notified a C.O. promtly!

[moose2]

looking forward to the rest Mark. I can see 13 sheep in your picture, just below the moose sheds.
Mike

[moose2]

did you get a count on the single in the scope. Its hard to tell from the picture but he looks 8
Mike

[mark]

Thinking ahead, I better reserve this one too
Ill post close up pics of this rams horns here in a while, as they are a very tough one to count and will add as another good learning tool!

[Allen50]

intresting how most hunter do not know that moose to hang out high in the mountians, nice finds, and kool sheep pic, thanks,,,

[Rattler]

Nice collection of pics Mark. Good to see a healthy population of rams. Thanks for sharing...

[BCHunterTV]

Mark stop it, you making me want to do a Stone Sheep hunt next year...

great pictures as always..

[guest]

Great Pic's Mark !

So you let that goodin above walk as it would have to many deductions ????? in BCC ?

Wow, good on ya if thats what your after ....... a mirror imaged Ram, perfect on both sides, looks like he's over 8 yr's too.

You must have quite a collection of Stone Ram's to pass up that legal one, as said good on ya ...... I guess.

I think you did the right thing as you said he was done any way, that said what did the CO's say about packing him out .......... man did any thing else happen to you guys, you had quite few things happen that most don't ever encounter over a life of hunting.

Sad to see the demise of the 2 different dead Rams in your story.

Great chronicle of your hunt though .............

CT

[proguide66]

Pretty cool ! hmmm that last ram sure looks like a highway 'rock cut' ram...:razz:

[Wild Images]

I had these horns in my hands on monday and he is a legal 9 year old ram, and from the pics that I looked at you did him the same favor that I would have.
A fast end beats a slow or violent one, good on you guys !

[farside]

No question. Pull the pin on the poor thing and call the CO's.

[Rackmastr]

Wow thats an interesting trip for sure!!!

That one ram that you passed up would have been SUPER tough to pass. What an awesome looking sheep IMO. I guess if B&C score is important to ya though, he would have had some deductions. I wouldnt be able to walk away from a ram like that....

A truly crazy trip no doubt!!!!

[budismyhorse]

Mark, you did the right thing there. Not only having mercy on that poor bugger, but taking care of it properly. You'd be surprised how many out there would have just walked away. I'm sure it wasn't the easiest pack out. Never estimate the laziness of some people.

Sounds like the area you picked has some real gun slingers......groan.

BTW....he's of legal age and don't be surprised if he is DAMN close to making the jig. You'd be surprised where that line actually is. ;)

........and you walked away from a 38-39 inch Mature Roman Nosed Dark ram.......not many people would do that.

[BCrams]

It was a good call and taking photo's / documenting what you did was the right thing and I would have reported it afterwards to the CO's. After seeing your e-mail photo's a few days ago I concluded he was a good 9 year old ram as well!! Probably a pleasant surprise!

[steepNdeep]

Right on Mark - some great photos! Thanks for takin' us along... You guys did teh right thing. :cool:

I especially like this shot of the stud - how close were ya? Don't see many shots like that...


Another nice ram i got very close too!

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/sheep_trip_II_079_Small_.jpg

[pg83]

Quite the trip you had all in all. Thanks for sharing it with us and good on you and your partner for taking care of that poor bugger. Real pity to see that.

[mountainman]

That looks like a real successful hunt to me. You did the right thing in my books! I don't believe in letting animals suffer at all. Beautiful pictures!!

[ianwuzhere]

great stories and pix- the far away pix are surprisingly good as well. sounds like you had quite the adventure this year.. to be able to see lots of sheep is awesome. thanx for postin- i still wanna header out for another trip this year- hmmmm.... :)

[wildman 22]

hey mark, great photos and story . you definately did the right thing, but after finding the first sheep dead and seeing this one injured it must of been hard putting him down knowing that you were going to notify the co's again. one strange story for sure.

[srupp]

wow...what a trip...enough drama for a lifetime..let alone one outing..I especially liked the photo of the ram you let walk..in among the trees...

cheers

Steven

[mark]

I suppose I should of mentioned that rams, and wild Images were not allowed to play, kind of took the guess work away from the rest of the crowd!
Someone asked if this was a highway hike, if you followed my other threads, you'd know it was a fly in, then a long hike in to a very remote spot!

We never saw another hunter the entire 13 days, I was rather shocked to find both a freshly killed ram, as well a wounded one!

Since the cat is kinda out of the bag, the ram did CI at 9 years, but I would of NEVER shot this ram on age, no matter how good a look I had.
Ill post some close ups of the iffy rings!

Imagine if you had this image in your spotter, could anyone safely count 8 enough to shoot???

http://www.huntingbc.ca/../photos/data/500/sheep_trip_II_060_Small_.jpg
&
How about now????
It will never get any closer than this!!!!

http://www.huntingbc.ca/../photos/data/500/sheep_trip_II_064_Small_.jpg
Anyone want to do the arrow thing to show the viewers 9 annuli????
Rams may not play as he's seen even closer shots!
C'mon Carl do us yer best!

[guest]

This is a great example of how hard it is to count the annuli in the field with a GOOD spotting scope.

This is becoming an educational thread thanks to Mark's post. Counting rings is tough at the best of times, and only obvious on some old broomed off heavy horned Ram with Many visible rings and using extra's for insurance. Just not a good practice shooting by age only. Even with Marks close up, personally I have a tough time getting to 8 never mind 9 years.

Thanks for posting these GREAT pic's Mark

CT

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Congrats Mark, sounds like a great trip.

[Downwind]

Do you have any idea what might have caused the injury to that ram? It looked like a fairly clean cut from pic but obviously that can be deceptive. To say this trip of your was memorable would be an understatement. I don't think you'll forget one aspect of this one, ever! Oh and I agree you did the right thing shooting that ram. It would be inhumane to leave it to the slow miserable death it would have gone through.

[BCbillies]

Every sheep hunt is different and this one is way different . . . quite an experience but wouldn't want it repeated!

[BCrams]

Rams may not play as he's seen even closer shots!


Grin. He's a good example why its not recommended people to go age mature rams in the field. However, he is indeed 9 yrs old.

[325]

Very interesting. I am baffled as to why you would pass on the ram that you got close to?? Are you really worried about asymmetry?? I would take that ram in a heartbeat, as I'm sure most sheep hunters would. That's a 155 + inch ram, no?? Anyway, quite a trip.

[ElectricDyck]

Tough, I only see 7. Crazy adventure. Did you get to keep the ram, then?

[Blainer]

Great thread Mark.
Some awsome information provided.

[Phil A. Bowl]

Its wierd that them alpine moose only drop the right side.lol

[buford19]

Mark you will remember this trip more then a trip that you harvest a 40" ram. You did the right thing on all your situations, this is what hunting is all about. Not just going and harvesting a animal but enjoying all aspects of a mountain hunt. Good on you.

[mark]

Pretty cool ! hmmm that last ram sure looks like a highway 'rock cut' ram...:razz:


Wow thats an interesting trip for sure!!!

That one ram that you passed up would have been SUPER tough to pass. What an awesome looking sheep IMO. I guess if B&C score is important to ya though, he would have had some deductions. I wouldnt be able to walk away from a ram like that....

A truly crazy trip no doubt!!!!



Very interesting. I am baffled as to why you would pass on the ram that you got close to?? Are you really worried about asymmetry?? I would take that ram in a heartbeat, as I'm sure most sheep hunters would. That's a 155 + inch ram, no?? Anyway, quite a trip.

I cant yank yer chain any longer....PG sniffed me out, the big ram was a park ram off the highway, I took some of them pics from under 10 yards....I could of speared him, was pretty hard to handle after searching for such a ram for 23 days in the mountains!


Tough, I only see 7. Crazy adventure. Did you get to keep the ram, then?

My hunting partner shot and tagged the ram, its been CI'd as 9 so he gets to keep it, I dont know if it made it by curl???


Do you have any idea what might have caused the injury to that ram? It looked like a fairly clean cut from pic but obviously that can be deceptive. To say this trip of your was memorable would be an understatement. I don't think you'll forget one aspect of this one, ever! Oh and I agree you did the right thing shooting that ram. It would be inhumane to leave it to the slow miserable death it would have gone through.

As to what broke the leg and cut the hide????? Bit of a mystery, a bullet we figured, the bone was shattered, it may have done some of the cutting, but it did look like a clean cut! We estimated the injury to be days to a week old????


Anyone gonna try to age this ram with lines or arrows?
Be brave, as I have close ups to show all 9 lines!

[Ourea]

.....The/ur act continues..... entertaining...... keep em hangin ....

[Krico]

Your sheep hunt sounds like a dream, literally - a string of crazy nonsensical events. Cool story.

[proguide66]

Crazy trip. Mark , those rams at the 'cut' are the same ones we all hunt.The buggers come through there from miles and we have taken pics of em and had clients shoot em 20 miles away from there same fall. Funny , after 17 ys of driving by there 10 times each year those shelves are wayy too familiar,lol.

[budismyhorse]

Interesting call.........your buddy decided to tag him at the kill site? Though for the moment you thought he was an illegal ram that you were just dispatching......HMMM, sound like a great topic for a new thread.

Technically you are taking an illegal ram into your possession when you do that. Had you not tagged it and just brought it in that is a different story all together. Cool that someone will actually keep the sheep though.

I know a lot of hunters that have taken 5pt illegal elk in found in the bush........they sure as HECK don't cut a tag for fear of being attached to it..Maybe in this case you actually caused its death therefore are required to tag it (?).......what did the CO say regarding that?

Thanks for all this Mark, its been an interesting few threads!!! Better that the usual.

[bigwhiteys]

You've had an odd sheep season, that's for sure. It sounds like this ram knew his gig was up, heard you and presented itself. My Grandpa had a client kill a ram and when they caped it for a lifesize found that he'd broken one of his legs when he was young, broke the bone clean in half but it fused itself back together, held only by the hide I guess.. my Grandpa still has the bone. He said you couldn't really even tell the ram was injured.

Until faced with the same situation I am not sure what I would have done... I pack a sat phone, so I might have called CO's and explained the situation. What if you each had a ram on your back already... then what? Nature is a bitch of a cruel beast, and only when we witness this stuff do we feel compelled to intervene, it's human nature I guess.

If you want me to mark that drawing you'll need to post full size pics that I can zoom into. I can get 8 with you've shown.


Crazy trip. Mark , those rams at the 'cut' are the same ones we all hunt

We watched 2 legal 9 year old rams at the cut one year, there was a group of 3 trucks, 1 truck parked at rock cut, 1 truck parked at summit and 1 truck parked a little further up... They were communicating via radio. Rifles visible in the truck at cut. I was too busy watching the rams, Willy caught what they were doing, because he'd seen the truck up the road at summit with a radio too..., thought it was a little funny. They were waiting for a lull in the traffic and they were probably gonna pop 1 or both rams right there!

We hung around for a while and then some tour buses showed up and the rams finally left, took the plates and reported the activity. Talking to a CO up there a few years later I brought that up and he wasn't too surprised!

Carl

[Tenacious Billy]

That's definitely a hunt you'll be talking about for years to come...lots of memorable, crazy shit!!

[ElectricDyck]

This is what I see, I'm not sure of the exact location of the second from the tip or the last from the hairline, but figure by judging by the pie sizes and other stones they've gotta be approximately there. Curious to see how 9 is achieved. http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd75/ElectricDyck/StoneAnuli.jpg

[mark]

Hey ED, that is exactly what I saw through my binos, hence I called it 7 and would not have killed this ram.
There is 9 true annuli, one that is near impossible to see, and one that is plain as day, but not where you'd expect to see it, chances are you think its a falsy and skipped right over it! (As I did)
Rams is going to post his version pretty quick here!

This annuli is impossible to see, and no-one should ever assume its there, but this ram had a bad summer with almost no growth????

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/sheep_trip_II_065_Small_.jpg
the #9 ring is less than 1/2" growth, this ram had a very bad summer, you can clearly see it just off the tip of my middle finger.
try to find the other one, youll be pissed at yourself once its pointed out!
(hint, its not in this pic)

[Gateholio]

Mark, you sure had an interesting sheep season!! Thanks for the pics and the stories. :)

[ElectricDyck]

Hey ED, that is exactly what I saw through my binos, hence I called it 7 and would not have killed this ram.
There is 9 true annuli, one that is near impossible to see, and one that is plain as day, but not where you'd expect to see it, chances are you think its a falsy and skipped right over it! (As I did)
Rams is going to post his version pretty quick here!

This annuli is impossible to see, and no-one should ever assume its there, but this ram had a bad summer with almost no growth????

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/sheep_trip_II_065_Small_.jpg
the #9 ring is less than 1/2" growth, this ram had a very bad summer, you can clearly see it just off the tip of my middle finger.
try to find the other one, youll be pissed at yourself once its pointed out!
(hint, its not in this pic)

My guess would be that there is two close together at the second years growth, as you can see it on both sides, bad year again maybe? I wrote it off as false cause the pie size proportions didn't make sense.

[Caribou_lou]

I see another annuli between his 2nd and 3rd year. They're maybe an inch and a half apart... but I'd have to say its a false because of how young he would have been.

[RJ]

Hey Mark is this the missing piece?

http://i52.tinypic.com/35cpzpw.jpg

[budismyhorse]

Ah the old "hairline ring" debate....... Some sheep experts give it..... Some do not. I'm interested to hear your CI gave it to you.

[proguide66]

You've had an odd sheep season, that's for sure. It sounds like this ram knew his gig was up, heard you and presented itself. My Grandpa had a client kill a ram and when they caped it for a lifesize found that he'd broken one of his legs when he was young, broke the bone clean in half but it fused itself back together, held only by the hide I guess.. my Grandpa still has the bone. He said you couldn't really even tell the ram was injured.

Until faced with the same situation I am not sure what I would have done... I pack a sat phone, so I might have called CO's and explained the situation. What if you each had a ram on your back already... then what? Nature is a bitch of a cruel beast, and only when we witness this stuff do we feel compelled to intervene, it's human nature I guess.

If you want me to mark that drawing you'll need to post full size pics that I can zoom into. I can get 8 with you've shown.



We watched 2 legal 9 year old rams at the cut one year, there was a group of 3 trucks, 1 truck parked at rock cut, 1 truck parked at summit and 1 truck parked a little further up... They were communicating via radio. Rifles visible in the truck at cut. I was too busy watching the rams, Willy caught what they were doing, because he'd seen the truck up the road at summit with a radio too..., thought it was a little funny. They were waiting for a lull in the traffic and they were probably gonna pop 1 or both rams right there!

We hung around for a while and then some tour buses showed up and the rams finally left, took the plates and reported the activity. Talking to a CO up there a few years later I brought that up and he wasn't too surprised!

Carl
No shit. Couple years ago some blow ass showed up with a WHOLE BIG ram in the trunk of his car to get CI'd in ft nelson..( cant remember,think it was book)..anyway , few pics from tourists later he got nailed.
Gotta wonder how many rams get wacked there as its pretty desolate by early Oct. those CO's are very underman'd for the area up there.
In reality , not much goes unoticed between Liard and ft nelson with the locals. EVERYONE knows about damned near every ram or big moose along the highway all year as well as what vehicle is parked where ect ect. Seems remote to most who arent familiar with the area but theres eyes everywhere.
Wonder how that ram got away with a blown off leg? They usually arent too hard to catch up to once you have a hole in em!

[dana]

Interesting hunt no doubt. Sometimes crazy $hit seems to pile up don't it? As for dumping the wounded ram, I don't know if I could have done it without being certain of legality. I agree with Bigwhiteys, sometimes nature can be a bitch! And sometimes it is very surprising what animals can survive. My biggest muley had a shattered rear leg and puncture marks up and down his body from fighting. I had no idea the leg was broken when I shot him. There wasn't blood at the site but I could spin the leg in every direction when I went to pull the rear glands off. I killed a bear this spring that was missing it's front foot, broken above the ankle and cleanly healed over as a stump. Even hair on the underside. The injury was years old. I have a friend that killed a big muley that was missing the front leg, broken above the knee joint. Shoulder muscle withered away but the opposite shoulder extra big. He had no clue it was a 3 legged deer when he killed it. The injury was years old. I've seen muley does with black saddles where a cougar has raked them hard and they have got away. No hair, just tough hard skin on their backs. While nature can be a bitch, she also can be very tough! Even when the odds of survivabilty are stacked against a critter, sometimes that critter beats those odds.

As for what caused the wound on the ram, looks like a good place where a wolf would hammer him. Any wolf sign around that drainage?

[Rubberfist]

Mos def not your typical trip! Perhaps you should rename yourselves "The Cleanup Crew". Thank you for cleaning up the garbage, and legal or not I think you guys did the admirable thing by relieving that ram of what most likely would have been a languished and painful existence.

You earned some good karma: next year's trip will be epic!

[RJ]

Well this is what I came up with, but that's with multiple angles and time to take a good look. I wouldn't have shot on age that's for sure.

http://i55.tinypic.com/mv3lh5.jpg

[Whonnock Boy]

Interesting hunt Mark. Kudos on the clean up.

Personally, I would never have put that ram out of his misery. The first thought that comes to mind is this. Unfortunately when fishing sometimes you get a bleeder on a fish that has no retention. You are not allowed to keep it, regardless if it is going to die in a matter of minutes. If stopped by the DFO you will be fined, and told that some other fish would have been fed by it. I believe you were very lucky considering the circumstances. If that ram was under age, you would have been screwed.

I do not doubt your observations, but just like Dana mentioned, it truly is amazing what an animal can overcome. My friend shot a moose once that had a foot long stick embedded in its front quarter. I myself shot a buck that had been, from what I could determine, shot in the foot not long before I harvested it. It was running around like nothing was wrong.

Another thing that I wonder about is if in fact that ram had been injured for a week or a few months. You mention that this years annuli indicates a poor year of growth in which could very well be attributed to the injury. Maybe the ram was in poor health when it was injured and then compounded by its injury. Maybe its injury was kept fresh looking by the flies, and or the animal licking itself, and never had a chance to heal over. Just a thought.

Again, kudos with the clean up. Thank you very much.

[guest]

I am quite shocked that this Ram is aged at 9, the point by RJ is incorrect at the 2-3 mark as Annuli continue to decrease in size ant the distance you mark between 2-3 is in fact a false annuli in my mind. As too right at the base near the head, this distances of prominent rings is tighter, closer, the displayed previous growth pattern shows consistent regression , then some thing out of pattern. But a tough winter or injury can cause the small growth year, False annuli are often mistaken as true annuli. I personally think it's the case here but thats only my opinion.
I have a hard time giving him 8 but I'm comfortable saying he's 7. I guess I'm no C. I. though cause I sure can't come up with 9.

Nice Ram though, incredible experience your trip was.

CT

[mark]

Hey Mark is this the missing piece?

http://i52.tinypic.com/35cpzpw.jpg

Yes it is! I missed it at first as well, even with horns in hand!


Ah the old "hairline ring" debate....... Some sheep experts give it..... Some do not. I'm interested to hear your CI gave it to you.

I was also surprized the CI gave it, but the ring was all way around and looked exactly like the next annuli!


Interesting hunt no doubt. Sometimes crazy $hit seems to pile up don't it? As for dumping the wounded ram, I don't know if I could have done it without being certain of legality. I agree with Bigwhiteys, sometimes nature can be a bitch! And sometimes it is very surprising what animals can survive. My biggest muley had a shattered rear leg and puncture marks up and down his body from fighting. I had no idea the leg was broken when I shot him. There wasn't blood at the site but I could spin the leg in every direction when I went to pull the rear glands off. I killed a bear this spring that was missing it's front foot, broken above the ankle and cleanly healed over as a stump. Even hair on the underside. The injury was years old. I have a friend that killed a big muley that was missing the front leg, broken above the knee joint. Shoulder muscle withered away but the opposite shoulder extra big. He had no clue it was a 3 legged deer when he killed it. The injury was years old. I've seen muley does with black saddles where a cougar has raked them hard and they have got away. No hair, just tough hard skin on their backs. While nature can be a bitch, she also can be very tough! Even when the odds of survivabilty are stacked against a critter, sometimes that critter beats those odds.

As for what caused the wound on the ram, looks like a good place where a wolf would hammer him. Any wolf sign around that drainage?

Dana, I agree with you on critters being quite tough, Ive also seen animals with some harsh injuries that have survived...... We, as 2 life long hunters, made the observations, and made the choice. Like I said, our investigation after the fact backed up our choice and confirmed that we made the right call. It appeared as the ram hadnt moved more than 20' in a week or more, he had eaten and flattened out a nest, he had been nibbling and shitting in the same 10' radius for some time, and he was over a km from any water, his eyes were shrinking from dehydration! We took tons of pics and video footage to back up our observations, should we had the need to defend ourselves for wrong doing!

10 days earlier we camped not 500 yards from the very spot, and heard wolves howling at night.....I have no idea why they hadnt got him????


I am quite shocked that this Ram is aged at 9, the point by RJ is incorrect at the 2-3 mark as Annuli continue to decrease in size ant the distance you mark between 2-3 is in fact a false annuli in my mind. As too right at the base near the head, this distances of prominent rings is tighter, closer, the displayed previous growth pattern shows consistent regression , then some thing out of pattern. But a tough winter or injury can cause the small growth year, False annuli are often mistaken as true annuli. I personally think it's the case here but thats only my opinion.
I have a hard time giving him 8 but I'm comfortable saying he's 7. I guess I'm no C. I. though cause I sure can't come up with 9.

Nice Ram though, incredible experience your trip was.

CT

Actually Curly, RJ's pic is spot on!
The annuli 1 inch past the #2 is 100% a true annuli without question, if one of them is a falsy then they both are, as they are identical, go all way around on both sides.
Like i said, I couldnt get more than 7, in my 10x binos at 40 yards. and I counted 10 times or more.
This ram has been looked over by several hunters, 2 co's, a taxidermist, a Ci, and a Bio, I assure you the rings are there!

[RJ]

I love sheep threads, very educational.
You can see the 2-3 short growth on both sides, must have been a tough year!
I assume false annuli would only show on one side, not both... Anyone know for sure?

http://i51.tinypic.com/rtn5zd.jpg http://i54.tinypic.com/w05mbp.jpg

[6616]

I love sheep threads, very educational.
You can see the 2-3 short growth on both sides, must have been a tough year!
I assume false annuli would only show on one side, not both... Anyone know for sure?
http://i51.tinypic.com/rtn5zd.jpg http://i54.tinypic.com/w05mbp.jpg

If an ring, mark, or groove only shows on one side it's false for darned sure and in fact it's not an annuli. An annuli represents a years growth and normally forms during the rut when hormones stop horn growth. I suspect anything that stops horn growth like an injury for example will create a ring that looks like an annuli but isn't because it occurs mid year and doesn't represent a years growth, and the horns will continue to grow after the injury heals, and the annuli for that year will form at the next rut. In this case the rings or false annuli as they're called would show on both horns. I believe any catostropic event like sickness or injury will stop horn growth for a short period of time and a ring will develop on both horns in the same location. The horn growth between annuli can be shorter than expected and can be out of porportion to the other years due to poor health, injury or sickness during that particular year, but I suspect the growth between the rings marked 2 and 3 is just too short to be considered a full years growth. Calling these rings false annulli is actually a misnomer because if they don't mark a full years gowth they're not annuli at all, just rings (horn character). I believe it's highly unlikely that either the ring marked 2 or the last one marked near the skull are actual annuli and thus probably shouldn't be counted to determine age. I believe this ram was 7 1/2 years old.

[bigwhiteys]

I believe it's highly unlikely that either the ring marked 2 or the last one marked near the skull are actual annuli and thus probably shouldn't be counted to determine age. I believe this ram was 7 1/2 years old.

I *think the ram could be 8 and that's only because he has characteristics that look like an 8 year old ram, If someone says they could get 9 annuli with field optics on that ram they are lying. In the field I would have never even considered 2/3 to be two years growth. Even if present on both horns, you're taking a risk adding that into your final count because it falls way outside a normal growth pattern. They may very well be annuli, but that determination in the field would be best left to someone with many, many rams on the ground.

From year 4-5 you've given him more growth than any other time in his life? Really...? That's ass backwards for most stones sheep, and I've got many examples to compare him too. For that ram to have had such a bad year he only grew what an inch??!?! Then proceeded to hammer up growth the next year and after that...? Christ with an injury or affliction that caused that kind of drop in growth you'd think it would have reflected into the next few years at least. Instead he came around and grew even more... I'm going to go with what I know and call where buddy's thumb is the 3rd year and with that it's pretty tough to make him a legal sheep without guessing the last annuli placement or pretending one is there, that might not be.

Carl

[budismyhorse]

This is my personal interpretation here. Now I rarely speak to sheep aging because I'm not all that experienced however when I took my stone ram in the CI sat down with me for quite a session.

His method would state that this ram (similar to mine) lays down a false ring each year. *Regardless if they are split around the horn*. Nearly perfect timing each year. He patterned the growth for the life of the sheep more than anything else. The red dots on my drawing show the false rings and green would be the actuals. The "Hairline" ring in this case is actually the false ring he grows consistently each year.

Making him 7. Just my take and it shows the inconsistency across the board when it comes to this game. Marks call in the field was the correct one.....7 and not legal.

IMHO if we start showing hunters there are "hairline" rings and "injury" rings.....we are heading down the wrong path when it comes to being conservative about this kind of thing.

Just my opinion and I'm not trying to crap all over this thread or Mark's buddies ram. FEEL FREE TO DISAGREE :)

My Stone Sheep CI'd 9 years old (9th is on the long side).

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/JBRam_8_on_the_broomed_side_resize.jpg

Mark's Buddies Ram CI'd 9 Years old.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Mark_Sheep.jpg

[ElectricDyck]

Interesting, did he say what cause the false rings?

I think everybody would/should agree that you couldn't shoot this one based on age.

[bigwhiteys]

Here is some aging fodder for you guys... If you've all got 9.5 on that ram and are confident in your calls on the stunted growth from year 2 to 3 it would be interesting to see what you can come up with for these rams?

http://bchuntingblog.com/rm/ram1.jpg

http://bchuntingblog.com/rm/ram2.jpg

http://bchuntingblog.com/rm/ram3.jpg


http://bchuntingblog.com/rm/ram5.jpg

http://bchuntingblog.com/rm/ram6.jpg

[ElectricDyck]

I get 9, 8, 10, 8 and 9, erring on the side of caution. The last one is tough to see on my old monitor.

[RJ]

Carl, thanks for posting those! Definitely some tricky ones there.
I came up with 13, 8, 10, 8, and 8 on the last one, although he was gnarly like an old warrior. Some of those rings are likely annuli but to field judge I would make the call at 8. Possibly a 9 or 10 year old though.

[bigwhiteys]

The last one is tough to see on my old monitor.

He is tough to see, and so is that ram of marks buddy. That last ram has several markings in his early years. These pictures were taken for legality purposes and documentation of client rams, Because the markings are so distinct, it's safe to say they exist on the other side. Are they annuli?

Marks buddies ram may have had a rough start to a year, slowing down slightly or stopping due to sickness possibly? and then finishing off stronger, but to call that 1 inch gap a years growth is a little bit of a stretch I think. Not one I would have made with confidence.

http://bchuntingblog.com/rm/ram7.jpg

Carl

[mark]

Marks buddies ram may have had a rough start to a year, slowing down slightly or stopping due to sickness possibly? and then finishing off stronger, but to call that 1 inch gap a years growth is a little bit of a stretch I think. Not one I would have made with confidence.

http://bchuntingblog.com/rm/ram7.jpg

Carl

While I agree with you 100%, the question I started asking was this.....
If one of them rings (2 & 3) is a falsy, then which one is it???? And Why????
No-one can answer them questions, because the rings are identical, everyone who has had the horn in hands have agreed they are true annuli!
They in no way resemble a false annuli!

The one I was doubtful of was the hairline one, even though it was identical to the one next to it as well!

Lets admit one thing here, if the sheep has a ring with all characteristics of a true annuli, then we have to except it as so.....or the whole legal age thing goes right out the window!

[mark]

Interesting, did he say what cause the false rings?

I think everybody would/should agree that you couldn't shoot this one based on age.

Like I said before, I sure wouldnt of....I also let a half dozen rams identical to this one go during my hunt!

[bayou]

Personally wouldnt have shot the ram. In the past have asked a couple different COs about shooting wounded/injured animals and the answer was the same if its in season and you have a tag and are going to tag it and is a legal animal to do so, then fine other wise no. This is where Im confused with your story, buddyismyhorse asked afew questions about it but I didnt notice an answer. You say you both thought the ram was illegal but shot it anyway, so when you ground checked it you then thought it was legal and cut your tag or did you hike out with it untagged thinking it was illegal then the CO or someone else said it was so you cut your tag and kept it or is it in the COs hands now and your buddy doesnt get it Im not sure whats going on. Some are saying this is an educational thread so Im just trying to see how it all played out.

[mark]

bottom line, ram is legal, tag was cut, what was very nearly wolf food was salvaged, all is good!
Ive had similar talks with CO's before, while they cant officially tell you to go dumping any wounded animal we see, they agreed that sometimes one has to do it!

I found a badly wounded "bald eagle" phoned a CO, asked him what to do, and was told to shoot it, just over the phone, based on what I told him! :shock:

[GOLDEN TOP SNIPER]

Cool Story . but i think if i wasnt 100 percent sure it was a legal ram i would have to let nature take its course ..I would let it Go .

[358mag]

Personally wouldnt have shot the ram. In the past have asked a couple different COs about shooting wounded/injured animals and the answer was the same if its in season and you have a tag and are going to tag it and is a legal animal to do so, then fine other wise no. This is where Im confused with your story, buddyismyhorse asked afew questions about it but I didnt notice an answer. You say you both thought the ram was illegal but shot it anyway, so when you ground checked it you then thought it was legal and cut your tag or did you hike out with it untagged thinking it was illegal then the CO or someone else said it was so you cut your tag and kept it or is it in the COs hands now and your buddy doesnt get it Im not sure whats going on. Some are saying this is an educational thread so Im just trying to see how it all played out.

Cant yank yer chain any longer....PG sniffed me out, the big ram was a park ram off the highway, I took some of them pics from under 10 yards....I could of speared him, was pretty hard to handle after searching for such a ram for 23 days in the mountains!
Really makes you wonder what is the truth and what is fiction in this story

[bigwhiteys]

The one I was doubtful of was the hairline one, even though it was identical to the one next to it as well!Lets admit one thing here, if the sheep has a ring with all characteristics of a true annuli, then we have to except it as so.....or the whole legal age thing goes right out the window!

I am doubtful of that one too... Especially comparing the ram to others of the same approx age.


If one of them rings (2 & 3) is a falsy, then which one is it???? And Why???? No-one can answer them questions, because the rings are identical, everyone who has had the horn in hands have agreed they are true annuli! They in no way resemble a false annuli!

I'd say one was false for sure, it matters not which one because automatically I am going to the next year that would fit a healthy growth pattern, he was sick, or had a rough time coming out of winter and was translated as what looks like an annuli, I don't think it's representative of a full years growth on a Stones Sheep. To make that call on a mountainside....?... I certainly couldn't have.

What characteristics must an obviously out of place marking on the horn have to be considered a false annuli? Look at the ram I posted... he's got gnarly markings in his early years... Are those all annuli? They are even more pronounced then your buds ram. I can post others too.

Carl

[mark]

Cant yank yer chain any longer....PG sniffed me out, the big ram was a park ram off the highway, I took some of them pics from under 10 yards....I could of speared him, was pretty hard to handle after searching for such a ram for 23 days in the mountains!
Really makes you wonder what is the truth and what is fiction in this story

What part is fuzzy for ya Skip??? So I played it up like i passed on that park ram for a few posts, yeah right, what sheep rookie would of done that????? I cant believe more people didnt recognize the background right away! LOL

[guest]

9,9,10,8,9 in that order BIG WHITEYS.

[358mag]

What part is fuzzy for ya Skip??? So I played it up like i passed on that park ram for a few posts, yeah right, what sheep rookie would of done that????? I cant believe more people didn't recognize the background right away! LOL
Nothing Fuzzy Mark just reading between the "lines" always like a good story and sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words

[Ourea]

bayou, ....great and legitimate points. Insightful.
The debating going on of the aging of rams and hunting protocol with what to do in uncertain situations is educational and informative, .....all are benifiting from the input .... and great to see knowledgeable and credible sheep hunters piping in.

Mark's, .. "story", ... as usual..., is full of contradictions ...... it's a far stretch from perceived reality for those that visit the north on a regular basis.

Mark will never let the truth or embelishment get in the way of a good story for the sake of his self promotion.

He is entertaining, ....we will give him that ...... credible...... that's debatable.

Looking forward to reading his next adventure .... who cares if it's in the 'fact" or "fiction" collum .... it's always entertaining.
Enjoy reading his tales.

Go mark!

[Gateholio]

Please keep in mind rule #6


6. There is to be no frowning upon a member for the method of hunting used, or the sex, age of the animal. If it's legal then it's legal no if, and, or, but!


Also, if you wish to debate "mercy killing" an injured animal you can start another thread on the topic. Or better yet, do a search to find the multi page thread on the topic that was discussed last year.

[bayou]

bottom line, ram is legal, tag was cut, what was very nearly wolf food was salvaged, all is good!
Ive had similar talks with CO's before, while they cant officially tell you to go dumping any wounded animal we see, they agreed that sometimes one has to do it!

I found a badly wounded "bald eagle" phoned a CO, asked him what to do, and was told to shoot it, just over the phone, based on what I told him! :shock:
Well if saying you shot a ram thinking it was illegal then finding out later it is legal is good enough for you thats all that matters, sounds like you dont want to say how it all played out or when you found out it was legal, leaves lots of unanswerd questions for others but your whole adventure leaves lots of unanswered questions really. Sheep left on the mountain, garbage left, no one else in area then shots and then horses etc. Hopefully lots of people dont get the idea to ground check there sheep or any animal for that matter, although seems lots do from the ones we have find dead or maybe they were just all wounded and people were putting them out of there misery.
Its also funny you didnt seem to care about leaving the other ram for wolf food and you new it was legal when you walked up to it.

[Ourea]

Gatehouse, I'm not "debating" anything, never challenged the ethics involved, nor the legitimacy of the kill etc , let alone rule #6. Not frowning on anyone either.

Some of us just enjoying good story telling at bedtime.
.... gonna sleep well tonight!

....zzzzz

[frenchbar]

if it isnt the sheep sherriff being a p---k..its his deputys ....

[houndogger]

I would have to agree with bayou on this one and that don't happen very often.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

HBC is becoming very predictable:neutral:.

SSS

[358mag]

Well if saying you shot a ram thinking it was illegal then finding out later it is legal is good enough for you thats all that matters, sounds like you dont want to say how it all played out or when you found out it was legal, leaves lots of unanswerd questions for others but your whole adventure leaves lots of unanswered questions really. Sheep left on the mountain, garbage left, no one else in area then shots and then horses etc. Hopefully lots of people dont get the idea to ground check there sheep or any animal for that matter, although seems lots do from the ones we have find dead or maybe they were just all wounded and people were putting them out of there misery.
Its also funny you didnt seem to care about leaving the other ram for wolf food and you new it was legal when you walked up to it.
Bayou
Well put like you stated just a few unanswered questions guess we will just have to wait and see if any more of this "adventure" shows up on HBC

[budismyhorse]

HBC is becoming very predictable:neutral:.

SSS

So what would everyone like then??? A bunch of bobbleheads?

I like the fact this site has differing opinions and views........damn near the only reason I watch it is to see the world from someone elses point of view.

Pretty civil discussion...sheesh.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

So what would everyone like then??? A bunch of bobbleheads?

I like the fact this site has differing opinions and views........damn near the only reason I watch it is to see the world from someone elses point of view.

Pretty civil discussion...sheesh.


You're reading into this too much, Jeff.
I just predicted it...that's all. Mark asked my opinion ahead if time...and I gave it to him.

I too enjoy threads like this...specifically sheep related ones.

Personally, I wouldn't have touched either sheep. Can't go do anything wrong by doing nothing....but hey, that's me.

SSS

[budismyhorse]

.....really shouldn't have quoted you Brent......was just surprised at Frenchbar's "prick" comment to be honest.

;)

[Stone Sheep Steve]

.....really shouldn't have quoted you Brent......was just surprised at Frenchbar's "prick" comment to be honest.

;)

Oh, I'm sure the term "prick" could be applied to some specific responses....just not all of them:-D

SSS

[325]

Wow sheep threads seem deteriorate rather commonly. Sad.

[mark]

Well if saying you shot a ram thinking it was illegal then finding out later it is legal is good enough for you thats all that matters, sounds like you dont want to say how it all played out or when you found out it was legal, leaves lots of unanswerd questions for others but your whole adventure leaves lots of unanswered questions really. Sheep left on the mountain, garbage left, no one else in area then shots and then horses etc. Hopefully lots of people dont get the idea to ground check there sheep or any animal for that matter, although seems lots do from the ones we have find dead or maybe they were just all wounded and people were putting them out of there misery.
Its also funny you didnt seem to care about leaving the other ram for wolf food and you new it was legal when you walked up to it.

Im not sure what questions are unanswered???
While I do realize my hunt was jampacked with a bizarre chain of events, maybe to many for some to comprehend, Ive told it EXACTLY how it happened!

Your last line certainly has me curious???? What EXACTLY would you have done with that other ram???? Stolen another hunters ram I pressume???? If not please explain!

Since some of you people dont seem to get it!!!
We didnt kill that ram for ground check reasons, it was a mercy killing and no more!
Id have done the same to a ewe, or any other animal in the same predicament!

[Islandeer]

Bottom line, only one of us was there ... period. made his call and laid it out pretty clearly. Lots of clarity and honesty.

So get on with it and dont pound a very dead sheep.

[mark]

Bottom line, only one of us was there ... period. made his call and laid it out pretty clearly. Lots of clarity and honesty.

So get on with it and dont pound a very dead sheep.

Thank you for seeing it that way, but I did expect this kind of backlash, it is a sheep thread!

[Islandeer]

I guess chasin those curly horns can make people wonky ...

[RJ]

I guess chasin those curly horns can make people wonky ...

I think you've got to be wonky to chase those horns in the first place ;)

[budismyhorse]

Mark, you are an experienced hunter.........I imagine you would realize just how strange this story is. The fact that your buddy mercy killed a ram you thought was illegal and now somehow he has ended up with it is just short of incredible!

It is completely natural for people, especially experienced unbiased hunters to be curious as to the events........

[mark]

Mark, you are an experienced hunter.........I imagine you would realize just how strange this story is. The fact that your buddy mercy killed a ram you thought was illegal and now somehow he has ended up with it is just short of incredible!
...

Not incredible at all, the sheep turned out to be a legal ram, so we decided to tag it and salvage it!

"It is completely natural for people, especially experienced unbiased hunters to be curious as
to the events....."

Yes, but I thought I explained the events quite clearly!
Some folks are looking for something that isn't there I presume????

[Ambush]

Well, I was dumb enough to beleive he actually turned down the `Rock Cut Ram``, so I`m not going to say anything.:oops:

[budismyhorse]

You haven't stated when the tag was cut.............which might be the most important detail from a legal standpoint found within this entire thread......

.....but ya! you have been very open and its appreciated bud! this has been a very interesting thread. Not the norm!

[The Dude]

Great story and pics Mark! Thanks for sharing, and I would definitely do the same as you did with the suffering Ram, or any animal for that matter.

(PS: The rest is usually why I steer clear of Sheep threads)

Good on ya for telling your tale, warts and all.

[ElectricDyck]

Thank you for seeing it that way, but I did expect this kind of backlash, it is a sheep thread!

LOL I'm glad you have thick skin, I enjoyed reading about the bizarre events, even though I may have done things differently, particularly posting here to stand trial for your actions LOL.

[frenchbar]

.....really shouldn't have quoted you Brent......was just surprised at Frenchbar's "prick" comment to be honest.

;)
why would you be surprized...i was referring to bayou and ourea's posts...questioning some ones hunt and credability...guys are a joke ..least mark has the balls to post up his hunting stories.

[BlacktailStalker]

least mark has the balls to post up his hunting stories.


x 2

[LBM]

So when was the tag cut?

[stoneguide]

Geeze who cares about the tag!!! Looks like some guys just want an excuse to jump all over him for something. He did the right thing dispatching the wounded animal. It ended up not being wasted and isnt out there suffering. Its great that he shared this story!
SG

[Rattler]

Geeze who cares about the tag!!! Looks like some guys just want an excuse to jump all over him for something. He did the right thing dispatching the wounded animal. It ended up not being wasted and isnt out there suffering. Its great that he shared this story!
SG

I couldn't agree more....

[budismyhorse]

Everyone seems to forget that on page one and two Mark explicitly asked for feedback regarding the situation and the age of the sheep..........

This thread is intended on being a discussion right from the get go!! If Marky Mark couldn't handle it he wouldn't have started it in the first place.

deep breaths everyone. relaaaaaaaaaaaaaax.

[budismyhorse]

Its obvious that everyone from the beginning of this saga to the end has tried to make the best of an unfortunate situation. From dispatch to inspection.

I'm prepared to let sleeping dogs ....well, sleep.

Now that the discussion is ground to a halt.....

I'm out!

[LBM]

I care about the tag. That is why I asked.

[Gateholio]

I think if I was in a similar situation, once I realized that it was legal (8 annuli, 4 points, 6 points, whatever) I'd cut the tag. To not do so would create controversy and suspicion on the intraweb....

[Weatherby Fan]

I think if I was in a similar situation, once I realized that it was legal (8 annuli, 4 points, 6 points, whatever) I'd cut the tag. To not do so would create controversy and suspicion on the intraweb....

Hhmmm...........yup I think we better see a picture of that tag...........maybe that would help ease some of the suspicion for LBM :confused:

[Rob]

If it was me I would have put it out of its misery(if deemed necessary). Sometimes the right decisions are made with the best intentions, this is where morals and regulations collide.

[Freshtracks]

Thnx for the ride mark ... again very educational if one wants to absorb it. Great pics and congrats on doing what u deemed right.

[Rubberfist]

More about the tag cutting:
Did he use a Leatherman with scissors?
A Swingblade?
A Buck?
Maybe a Havalon for a precise, clean, surgical slicing?
Did he cut a proper triangle, and stay within the lines denoted on the tag?
Was he without a proper knife and had to saw it off with a plastic picnic knife?
Did he bite a notch into the tag?
If so, did he remove a little of the neighboring date's notch?
If so, does this imply it took more than one day for the ram to die??!?

When did we become Bowsite?

[Gateholio]

More about the tag cutting:
Did he use a Leatherman with scissors?
A Swingblade?
A Buck?
Maybe a Havalon for a precise, clean, surgical slicing?
Did he cut a proper triangle, and stay within the lines denoted on the tag?
Was he without a proper knife and had to saw it off with a plastic picnic knife?
Did he bite a notch into the tag?
If so, did he remove a little of the neighboring date's notch?
If so, does this imply it took more than one day for the ram to die??!?

When did we become Bowsite?

Was there a dangling chad from the tag notch?

PS Switchblades are prohibited weapons in Canada. To use one to cut a tag would also create controversy on the intraweb....

[LBM]

Would he have done the same thing if it was day one of the sheep hunt?

[stoneguide]

Tagged it or dispatched it?
SG

[GoatGuy]

If an ring, mark, or groove only shows on one side it's false for darned sure and in fact it's not an annuli. An annuli represents a years growth and normally forms during the rut when hormones stop horn growth. I suspect anything that stops horn growth like an injury for example will create a ring that looks like an annuli but isn't because it occurs mid year and doesn't represent a years growth, and the horns will continue to grow after the injury heals, and the annuli for that year will form at the next rut. In this case the rings or false annuli as they're called would show on both horns. I believe any catostropic event like sickness or injury will stop horn growth for a short period of time and a ring will develop on both horns in the same location. The horn growth between annuli can be shorter than expected and can be out of porportion to the other years due to poor health, injury or sickness during that particular year, but I suspect the growth between the rings marked 2 and 3 is just too short to be considered a full years growth. Calling these rings false annulli is actually a misnomer because if they don't mark a full years gowth they're not annuli at all, just rings (horn character). I believe it's highly unlikely that either the ring marked 2 or the last one marked near the skull are actual annuli and thus probably shouldn't be counted to determine age. I believe this ram was 7 1/2 years old.

This makes the most sense in terms of the horns in the pics. Particularly when you consider the relationship between overall horn length and the first three years growth.

You see rockies that do the stop/start thing fairly often especially in places where the living is easy and the lines stack up creating 'false' annuli (injury isn't always the reason).

Anyways looks like the education has been overtaken by the drama.

[6616]

This makes the most sense in terms of the horns in the pics. Particularly when you consider the relationship between overall horn length and the first three years growth.

You see rockies that do the stop/start thing fairly often especially in places where the living is easy and the lines stack up creating 'false' annuli (injury isn't always the reason).

Anyways looks like the education has been overtaken by the drama.

True, and habitat conditions/forage quality, especially drought related, probably plays a significant role in hot/dry ranges of the southern interior.

[huntcoop]

Was there a dangling chad from the tag notch?....

That cost a buddy on mine a few $$ from an overzealous CO.

I would definetly use a Leatherman with scissors, would do a precise cut, but would it leave any herb residue?

[mark]

So when was the tag cut?


I care about the tag. That is why I asked.


W.T.F. diff does it make???? For the record, it was cut right away!

While I hate to revive this thread after Ive been away for a couple days....Id still love to hear from Bayou????

[Gateholio]

You won't hear from him, I banned him. He has had enough warnings...He makes every bloody post into an accusation of wrongdoing, and we aren't putting up with that crap on hunt report threads anymore. Call it the "Willy" rule if you like. :)

[LBM]

Not making any accusations of wrongdoing, just curious. We all have to make tough decisions at times and it is nice to know how others go about making theirs.

[burger]

This is probably why people are unsure and are questioning you, in post#3 you wrote.

"Heres the question, did we do the right thing?????
Would you have done the same, or left him for the wolves???
This pic is a better look than we had at 40 yards.....is he legal by age (as he's not by curl I assure you)
Before the saints go picking up the phone, I assure you we packed him out and notified a C.O. promtly!"

That gives the impression that you didnt tag it right away and instead went to a CO to let him know what had transpired as you made it sound like you and your partner could not make more than 7. They probably look at this statement and wonder why you promptly would go and find a CO if the ram tag was cut as the kill site. Why would you need to if it was legal, rather than setting up a meeting with a CI.

Just an observation for ya.

[325]

More about the tag cutting:
Did he use a Leatherman with scissors?
A Swingblade?
A Buck?
Maybe a Havalon for a precise, clean, surgical slicing?
Did he cut a proper triangle, and stay within the lines denoted on the tag?
Was he without a proper knife and had to saw it off with a plastic picnic knife?
Did he bite a notch into the tag?
If so, did he remove a little of the neighboring date's notch?
If so, does this imply it took more than one day for the ram to die??!?

When did we become Bowsite?

Ha ha...I love it!!

[BiG Boar]

Where did you fly into Mark? Where exactly? Nice looking ram. A great wall hanger to remember an incredible season.

[warren0427]

You banned bayou for questioning marks actions? Sorry I haven't followed all of bayou comments on other threads but on this one they seemed reasonable enough. Just about everybody on this thread so far has agreed with a mercy kill, saying it's all right. Gotta be kidding me. I've seen wounded animals and believe me there's nobody more then me who hates to see an animal suffer. But it's illegal and wrong. Nature is a bitch. Plain and simple! We as hunters know that, accept that and know we shouldn't intervene. Point, they shot a sheep thinking it wasn't legal to be merciful and then walk and oh wow it's legal! Remember mark wanted to know what we thought. Its frightening the implications of " mercy killing" and what could come of that. I think what they did was very wrong with good intentions. I would not have done the same and I hope mercy killing is something that does not continue.

[mark]

You banned bayou for questioning marks actions? Sorry I haven't followed all of bayou comments on other threads but on this one they seemed reasonable enough. Just about everybody on this thread so far has agreed with a mercy kill, saying it's all right. Gotta be kidding me. I've seen wounded animals and believe me there's nobody more then me who hates to see an animal suffer. But it's illegal and wrong. Nature is a bitch. Plain and simple! We as hunters know that, accept that and know we shouldn't intervene. Point, they shot a sheep thinking it wasn't legal to be merciful and then walk and oh wow it's legal! Remember mark wanted to know what we thought. Its frightening the implications of " mercy killing" and what could come of that. I think what they did was very wrong with good intentions. I would not have done the same and I hope mercy killing is something that does not continue.

Illegal and wrong??? Well maybe....Ive phoned in to CO's in the past about mortally wounded deer as well a bald eagle and received permission over the phone to dispatch the animal (several times) In fact Ive been thanked for doing so by CO's as well RCMP (when CO's were not available)
But I suppose this one is different because its a "SHEEP" right???? :roll:
Maybe phoning for a chopper full of veterinarians would of been the "right thing" ??? :lol:
The sheep was dead either way, so whats all the crying about???

And for the record, bayou has had it coming for sometime, although Id love to hear what he'd have done regarding the other sheep???

[mark]

Where did you fly into Mark? Where exactly? Nice looking ram. A great wall hanger to remember an incredible season.

I think people would rather know where "you" went hunting this year???? :-D

[Ourea]

Have been hunting the back country, high country, north country, popular areas, remote areas and everything in between. ...... and for someone to come across two Stone Sheep rams found dead or dying,.... let alone any species,.... then risk tagging one of them (WTF?), .....under questionable circumstances, .... being questionable legal maturaity, ....and in one hunt? All I can say is WOW, WOW, WOW!

There has to be way more to this story and I hope we here it play out.
Hope the story telling gets only better. Very seldom mark ever stops blowing his sails, .... so lookin forward to his future comments.
He owes that to his audience, LOL.

[warren0427]

Like I said with good intentions. Nobody's crying. Makes no difference what kind of animal it is. I firmly believe mercy killing to be wrong in nature.
Vets being flown in?

Anyway, just my opinion.

[Gateholio]

You banned bayou for questioning marks actions? Sorry I haven't followed all of bayou comments on other threads but on this one they seemed reasonable enough.

Not entirely. He was banned because pretty much everyone was sick of him making allegations about other HBC members that they were involved in behavior that was illegal, immoral, unethical and unsavory, with virtually every damn post.


As I've said before, this sort of crap on the hunting threads isn't going to be tolerated anymore.

[burger]

Illegal and wrong??? Well maybe....Ive phoned in to CO's in the past about mortally wounded deer as well a bald eagle and received permission over the phone to dispatch the animal (several times) In fact Ive been thanked for doing so by CO's as well RCMP (when CO's were not available)
But I suppose this one is different because its a "SHEEP" right???? :roll:
Maybe phoning for a chopper full of veterinarians would of been the "right thing" ??? :lol:
The sheep was dead either way, so whats all the crying about???

And for the record, bayou has had it coming for sometime, although Id love to hear what he'd have done regarding the other sheep???

it no different because it is a sheep. Like you said you were given permission before dispatching the animals in your previous situations but not this one. Do I think you did the right thing ethically yes. Legally no. As hunters we are not allowed to make those decisions based on what we deem necessary or appropriate. For most we are not biologist or a vet(maybe some are) and in saying that how are we to be sure it would not survive? We as hunters should never make the decision of what lives and dies except for what we are legally allowed to harvest and in this situation you decided the fate of the animal rather than let nature take its course which would have been the legal way of dealing with the situation. Again like I said ethically I feel you did the right thing but as Warren0427 stated if we were allowed to make those decisions the "mercy killing" card would become a defence that some would use.

[mark]

Have been hunting the back country, high country, north country, popular areas, remote areas and everything in between. ...... and for someone to come across two Stone Sheep rams found dead or dying,.... let alone any species,.... then risk tagging one of them (WTF?), .....under questionable circumstances, .... being questionable legal maturaity, ....and in one hunt? All I can say is WOW, WOW, WOW!

There has to be way more to this story and I hope we here it play out.
Hope the story telling gets only better. Very seldom mark ever stops blowing his sails, .... so lookin forward to his future comments.
He owes that to his audience, LOL.

Theres no more to this story, hope you didnt have yer hopes up to much, but your free to speculate all you want!

[kootenayelkslayer]

That one ram that you have the close up pics of, broomed on one side, was a beauty! There must be more to the story! I don't anyone who'd pass that ram up. Too close too the highway???

[kootenayelkslayer]

Pretty eventful hunt you had btw, what a story! Thanks for the pics.

[mark]

it no different because it is a sheep. Like you said you were given permission before dispatching the animals in your previous situations but not this one. Do I think you did the right thing ethically yes. Legally no. As hunters we are not allowed to make those decisions based on what we deem necessary or appropriate. For most we are not biologist or a vet(maybe some are) and in saying that how are we to be sure it would not survive? We as hunters should never make the decision of what lives and dies except for what we are legally allowed to harvest and in this situation you decided the fate of the animal rather than let nature take its course which would have been the legal way of dealing with the situation. Again like I said ethically I feel you did the right thing but as Warren0427 stated if we were allowed to make those decisions the "mercy killing" card would become a defence that some would use.

I certainly see your point, as well I respect your thoughts and opinion since I asked for it in the beginning.
We all have to do what we feel is right in this world, and live with our choices either way, the diff is 99% of you wouldnt have the balls to share the experience!

[Fishhound]

Mark, good story, you must have thick skin being willing to share your adventure. I must say that the coments about cutting tags is really irrelevent since the COs would have checked that for sure, and if they were okay with it good enough.

I would have put the ram out of its misery to

[mark]

That one ram that you have the close up pics of, broomed on one side, was a beauty! There must be more to the story! I don't anyone who'd pass that ram up. Too close too the highway???

Im guessing since your just catching up around here you didnt go through the whole thread....I mentioned way back, it was a park ram! He was a dandy!

[mark]

Mark, good story, you must have thick skin being willing to share your adventure. I must say that the coments about cutting tags is really irrelevent since the COs would have checked that for sure, and if they were okay with it good enough.

I would have put the ram out of its misery to

Amazing how some people cant figure that out, isnt it????

[kootenayelkslayer]

Im guessing since your just catching up around here you didnt go through the whole thread....I mentioned way back, it was a park ram! He was a dandy!

Ah ok, I missed that. Thanks, ya he's a dandy alright!

[budismyhorse]

Mark......
The way your story is written it appears that you mercy killed an illegal ram THEN PUT YOUR TAG ON IT.........which is just plain STUPID. Which is why people are asking because they can't believe anyone would do that.

The way your story SHOULD read is that you mercy killed a sheep and ground checked it legal THEN put your tag on it.

Its all in the way people are interpretting the information you left out.

we all get it now.......we are all on the same page.

[RJ]

Just curious which park doesn't let you hunt up north?

[Gateholio]

Mark......
The way your story is written it appears that you mercy killed an illegal ram THEN PUT YOUR TAG ON IT.........which is just plain STUPID. Which is why people are asking because they can't believe anyone would do that.

The way your story SHOULD read is that you mercy killed a sheep and ground checked it legal THEN put your tag on it.

Its all in the way people are interpretting the information you left out.

we all get it now.......we are all on the same page.

I didn't think that the story was ambiguous at all. Never once did I believe that Marks buddy tagged an illegal ram.

[KB90]

Just curious which park doesn't let you hunt up north?

I think proximity to the highway would have been the issue

[budismyhorse]

Fair enough Gate, however not everyone fills in missing gaps the same.
that is the beauty of this free world we live in. ;)

[yama49]

Mark, wow what an adventure you had , i must say. I would have left the ram myself, but wouldnt judge anybody any dif, if they did what you and your partner did. Thx for sharing because you are right 99% wouldnt have shared this, or asked for opinions on it.. Look foward to your muley adventures...


jason

[Fisher-Dude]

Have been hunting the back country, high country, north country, popular areas, remote areas and everything in between. ...... and for someone to come across two Stone Sheep rams found dead or dying,.... let alone any species,.... then risk tagging one of them (WTF?), .....under questionable circumstances, .... being questionable legal maturaity, ....and in one hunt? All I can say is WOW, WOW, WOW!

There has to be way more to this story and I hope we here it play out.
Hope the story telling gets only better. Very seldom mark ever stops blowing his sails, .... so lookin forward to his future comments.
He owes that to his audience, LOL.

All I can say to you is BOW WOW BOW WOW BOW WOW! Get over it, "your" f**king deer ran away and that's hunting, regardless of someone else's dog barking at it.

For you to continually accuse Mark of wrongdoing in virtually every post you make (I recall the "irony" remark you made) is childish bullshit. Put a cork in it, and post up one of YOUR hunting adventures for a change instead of prowling around attacking Mark whenever he makes a post.

[ianwuzhere]

Good story mark.. lots to be learned from threads such as this... can be easy to chirp people online.. i read a trip that youll never forget, great learning experience and youll sleep better knowing you did the right thing out there...
Cheerz..

[Walking Buffalo]

As I promised, the drama continues on this hunt! So fast forward to the end of our time in the mountains, we had come to the conclusion that there was no legal rams in our area and decided to hunt our way back to our pick up point.
While we saw sheep all day long on our way out, no rams were spotted, early in the day we made it past the point we planned on camping and were making a shot at our lake.....we had just passed the last bit of up hill in our journey, past the areas we had seen sheep on our way in.
We were down in the buckbrush/treeline talking, I just said, sure would be nice to bag one now, as its all down hill from here................
I look to my left, holy $h!t!, a big ram, 40 yards broadside just standing there, not even looking at us???? WTF Im thinking????
Notice 2 things right away, first he's short by an inch on both sides, second he dont look right????
Im starring hard through the binos and could only count 7, buddys binos were in his pack, so he used his scope and saw the same.......No F'ing way, this just isnt fair???
We could see the rams head swaying from side to side a bit (not normal) then he tried to walk, he could barely walk as his hind leg was blown off, hanging by a thread!
That rams phuawked I yelled......buddys says should we down him??? Midas well, he's dead anyways......so he dumps him!

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/sheep_trip_II_055_Small_.jpg
heres the carnage, the lower part of his leg was totally rotten, maggots flies, stunk to high hell, the top part totally raw, still leaking blood!
The ram was very skinny, no fat, very dehydrated, even his eyes were pitted like a golf ball, instead of smooth and glossy, he was a long ways from water. The more we took him apart, the more we assured ourselves we did the right thing!
So heres the ram, and no I wasnt so happy I took my pant off, it was hot, so I was wearing shorts!

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/sheep_trip_II_057_Small_.jpg
Heres the question, did we do the right thing?????
Would you have done the same, or left him for the wolves???
This pic is a better look than we had at 40 yards.....is he legal by age (as he's not by curl I assure you)
Before the saints go picking up the phone, I assure you we packed him out and notified a C.O. promtly!



I wonder what the outcome would have been if this ram was not aged at 8....

Mercy kill.
Mercy annuli count.... ?

[whitetailsheds]

WTH did that to the rams leg?

[Ourea]

All I can say to you is BOW WOW BOW WOW BOW WOW! Get over it, "your" f**king deer ran away and that's hunting, regardless of someone else's dog barking at it.

For you to continually accuse Mark of wrongdoing in virtually every post you make (I recall the "irony" remark you made) is childish bullshit. Put a cork in it, and post up one of YOUR hunting adventures for a change instead of prowling around attacking Mark whenever he makes a post.

You certainly speak with class, .....as always.
Your comments are sku'd and inaccurate.
.......Having sais that, I'm not going to get upset at a midget for being short.

[Fisher-Dude]

Yep, go on the attack again. I guess I have to type slowly for you to understand: Still waiting for YOU to post something about YOUR hunting exploits instead of ripping someone else's hunt apart.

PS - the word I think you're looking for is "skewed."

[Ourea]

Yep, go on the attack again. I guess I have to type slowly for you to understand: Still waiting for YOU to post something about YOUR hunting exploits instead of ripping someone else's hunt apart.

PS - the word I think you're looking for is "skewed."

I'm not on the attack, that's your full time job.... I just poked some fun at some obvious contradictions in someone's story.
Your issue is not with my comments, they are with me.
Pursue your issues with me off line.

And ....My usuage of the term "sku'd" vs "skewed" is deliberate.
It's like using "sk8" over "skate".
In today's world of communication, ...it's all abbreviated, ...shortened "slang" per say,... SMS ect is based on this current cultural trend.
Please try and keep up with todays culture. See the below for reference.

Urban Slang .......
"the use of slang is frequently ridiculed by culturally-ignorant people who feel it is the product of insufficient education and believe it to be counter-evolutionary; of course, they couldn't be farther from the truth".

[patdel]

Incredible experience you had on this trip Mark. I think until someone is in the situation that you were in, it is hard to say what he or she would have done. It is hard to see wildlife suffer and I feel I would probably have done the same thing you did. The fact that the injury was already rotten is real evidence for the C.O.s to see. I agree that many would not relate this story for fear of the responses they would receive. It really shows your character and that you have nothin to hide. Great to see those who really love the great outdoors and show its more than just going out and just shooting things and having no respect for the surroundings.

[LBM]

I certainly see your point, as well I respect your thoughts and opinion since I asked for it in the beginning.
We all have to do what we feel is right in this world, and live with our choices either way, the diff is 99% of you wouldnt have the balls to share the experience!

I agree with your statement the only difference is you didn't pull the trigger. So it was your buddies decision and you had the balls to share it.

[boxhitch]

Still catching up on old threads here
-Nice 7 yr old ram Mark. I know some authorities are calling it older, but that doesn't wash with me.
That line near the two year annuli doesn't seem to fit, and the section between is too healthy looking to appear formed during a 'bad year'.
And to have another 'bad year' going during the last growth period is tough to count on. Section from the 7 line to the base looks quite reasonable though.
- annuli are formed during winter nutrition shortage, the reason ewes, nannies and billies have them also. The reason false rings show up. Health/nutrition. Dormant period can last Nov to March.
- you guys sure got into 'ram country'. tough to believe that there can be so many young rams and year after year the old ones are so hard to find. Just where do they all go ?
-mercy killings ? like said before, nature is cruel, nothing gets wasted, animals are survivors, etc. I wouldn't play god, and would leave well enough alone.
-

[yiorgo3]

I love reading the sheep threads. Some day I would love to go on a sheep hunt. I use them for education. One thing I have learned is if you want trouble on this website post a picture of a ram that does not have horns past the bridge of it nose. I always read Mark's posts. (He is still mad that he hiked all day in the alpine last year and I shot a huge Mulie road hunting. LOL). I think good on you Mark for telling your story. It has been an interesting discussion. He made a judgement call and according to the people in charge was the right one. He was willing to face the music had it not been the right call. Thanks Mark for the interesting story.

[Bearen 09]

So why are you trying to show age so much, really stressing the point.. But when asked about the tag all the flags go up????
Why don't you just post a pic of when it was cut.. It is as easy as that..
No need to get mad just do it.. You were so worried about proving the ram was nine,don't see that.
Anyhow just prove the tag was cut plain and simple.....No more worring about proving his age because his age is wrong..Just because the co said that was his age and he has the final say doesn't me he is right it just means he has the final say..
Is there something on the tag that you don't want others to see. I am not from BC so I don't know..
I do no how to score sheep and can't see 9.Also just so you no sheep never grow bigger than the previous year it is a proven fact.

[pitbell]

Epic thread.

[Gateholio]

So why are you trying to show age so much, really stressing the point.. But when asked about the tag all the flags go up????
Why don't you just post a pic of when it was cut.. It is as easy as that..
No need to get mad just do it.. You were so worried about proving the ram was nine,don't see that.
Anyhow just prove the tag was cut plain and simple.....No more worring about proving his age because his age is wrong..Just because the co said that was his age and he has the final say doesn't me he is right it just means he has the final say..
Is there something on the tag that you don't want others to see. I am not from BC so I don't know..
I do no how to score sheep and can't see 9.Also just so you no sheep never grow bigger than the previous year it is a proven fact.


I guess you missed the post from Mark that said "the tag was cut right away"

[Weatherby Fan]

I guess you missed the post from Mark that said "the tag was cut right away"

Gatehouse..................some guys are very visual,he needs a picture of the cut tag !
on top of that I'm am quite disappointed mark never posted a picture of the cut tag in the first place as all successful hunters that post their story and pictures on here do.

[dana]

I can just imagine that discussion. Phone up buddy. "Dude, I need you to come over so I can scan your hunting licence and sheep tag" "WTF for???" "So I can appease some guys on the internet" Would you call your buddy and have that conversation with him? I didn't think so. And BTW yes there are things on a tag that I certainly wouldn't want out in the land of the interweb. Like perhaps my hunter number. No different than your driver's licence number. Would you want that floating around the net???

[budismyhorse]

what a gong show........

[proguide66]

what a gong show........
no shit.......

[Weatherby Fan]

no shit.......

X2 and you can add a double head shake and eye roll......................:confused:

[Gateholio]

I can just imagine that discussion. Phone up buddy. "Dude, I need you to come over so I can scan your hunting licence and sheep tag" "WTF for???" "So I can appease some guys on the internet" Would you call your buddy and have that conversation with him? I didn't think so. And BTW yes there are things on a tag that I certainly wouldn't want out in the land of the interweb. Like perhaps my hunter number. No different than your driver's licence number. Would you want that floating around the net???

Exactly what I was thinking

:)

[killman]

K group hug everyone!:razz:

[twr]

Thanks for your threads Mark. thouroughly enjoyed them! I know shit about sheep, and still do. some of you poeple on here are.....not even worth the breath. Thanks again Mark looking forward to your next thread.

[wiggy]

Here's to you Mark; seen lots of shit in the mtns and to let that beautiful animal suffer and die naturally would be bs. Posting about it was asking for war with the hectics looking for a reason to spout. I was hiking in the himalayas one year and came into a small village. A dog came running out blood pouring from its nose and mouth. It was getting eaten alive by internal parasites. The locals wouldnt do anything about it cause they say it was the dogs karma and they didnt want to intertwine their karma with the suffering. I walked over grabbed a metal shovel and then walked over and smoked the dog once on the head, end of suffering; howling instantly. No one said a word to me good or bad. When your horse breaks a leg in the bush i guess you should just unpack it and walk away and let nature do her thing; yeah right. Congrats on you for being honest and open and kma to the guys that would just let him rot

[mark]

Just had a pretty good laugh at these recent posts....thanks guys! LOL

[Islandeer]

So why are you trying to show age so much, really stressing the point.. But when asked about the tag all the flags go up????
Why don't you just post a pic of when it was cut.. It is as easy as that..
No need to get mad just do it.. You were so worried about proving the ram was nine,don't see that.
Anyhow just prove the tag was cut plain and simple.....No more worring about proving his age because his age is wrong..Just because the co said that was his age and he has the final say doesn't me he is right it just means he has the final say..
Is there something on the tag that you don't want others to see. I am not from BC so I don't know..
I do no how to score sheep and can't see 9.Also just so you no sheep never grow bigger than the previous year it is a proven fact.

WINNER!! Of the nob of the season post ... well done.

[Bearen 09]

I don't no about winner of the nob of the season... up there though...
Maybe I should have read everything...Duuu
It was your friends sheep. Sorry didn't catch that. And ya who would phone there buddy up and say that crap.. Opppsss Sorry guys I will shut up.:-D
Still doesn't get winner of the season, I have seen worse trust me.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Mark congrats on your hunt.There are a lot of arm chair hunters out there telling you what to do or what they would have done.Until someone is in that same situation it is hard to say what we will do.You are not a seasoned sheep hunter but past on some borderline rams .You are not trying to hide anything.I rember you shot a turkey years ago with a 300 magnum and didnt realize you hade made a mistake until some people made you aware of it.We live and learn from our mistakes and admit when we may have made the wrong call.I commend you for being forth right and not hiding and coming clean on a difficult call.Good on you and I enjoyed the story.Thanks.

[Rubicon500]

So why are you trying to show age so much, really stressing the point.. But when asked about the tag all the flags go up????
Why don't you just post a pic of when it was cut.. It is as easy as that..
No need to get mad just do it.. You were so worried about proving the ram was nine,don't see that.
Anyhow just prove the tag was cut plain and simple.....No more worring about proving his age because his age is wrong..Just because the co said that was his age and he has the final say doesn't me he is right it just means he has the final say..
Is there something on the tag that you don't want others to see. I am not from BC so I don't know..
I do no how to score sheep and can't see 9.Also just so you no sheep never grow bigger than the previous year it is a proven fact.

Just so you know , I have a Dall Sheep sitting to the right of me, and his 3-4 year is 3/8th of a inch shorter than his 4-5 , and thats a proven fact. Your theory is great , I guess lamb tips dont count either ?

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Reading through these posts again the ''Anti hunters" must think these uncivilized barbarians are about as united as the U.S and North Korea.This is very sad for our sport.

[slyfox]

Sounds like a great hunt Mark good for you to take the sheep out of it misery love your hunting storys buddy hope this does not effect the next ones.

[mark]

I rember you shot a turkey years ago with a 300 magnum and didnt realize you hade made a mistake until some people made you aware of it.We live and learn from our mistakes and admit when we may have made the wrong call.I commend you for being forth right and not hiding and coming clean on a difficult call.Good on you and I enjoyed the story.Thanks.

Learn to spot a joke when you see one! Maybe you should view the pics in that thread!

[stones]

Awesome story Mark, always look fwd to reading your posts. To bad there are so many tools on here that try and bring you down.

[BCHunterTV]

i agree....inter-web police


Awesome story Mark, always look fwd to reading your posts. To bad there are so many tools on here that try and bring you down.

[835]

Typical sheep thread.
Well it ended the same as so many anyway.

These were great stories Mark. Too bad i went the way of "The Sheep thread"

[Walking Buffalo]

I found this thread to be very "interesting".


The inspection ruling this Ram to be 8+ years old may be precident setting. I know I would bring up the aging of this ram if confronted with a "false" annuli decision.


Have a look at this '96 court case appeal. Mr. Dollar lost an appeal and his ram over a decision that an unusually short growth between annuli did NOT constituted a year's age.

http://www.eab.gov.bc.ca/wildlife/96-13.htm


Some excerpts from the appeal ruling.




Based on his visual inspection of the horn annuli, Mr. Dollar and his guide concluded that the animal was eight years old, the minimum legal age requirement as set out in the Regulation. However, Mr. Dollar admits that he observed that one of the annulus appeared to be out of sequence. This annulus was located very close to the preceding annulus whereas the rest of the annuli were separated by significantly larger distances and were equally spaced.

There is no dispute that Mr. Dollar did not view the ram from the side to see whether the horn tip extended upwards beyond the forehead-nose bridge, the other method for determining legality.

Mr. Dollar proceeded to shoot and kill the thinhorn sheep. He then presented the dead animal for inspection to Mr. Rick Marshall, the Regional Wildlife Section head manager, to confirm that it met the minimum legal requirements in effect at that time.
Mr. Marshall examined the horn annuli and determined that the annulus which appeared out of sequence was in fact an irregularity in the horn and not a true annulus. He therefore concluded that the ram had not yet reached eight years of age. Mr. Marshall also determined that the horn tip of the ram did not extend upwards beyond the forehead-nose bridge (the dorsal surfaces on the suture joining the left and right nasal bones) when viewed from the side.



On September 6, 1995, Mr. Dollar applied to Mr. Bob Hooton, Acting Regional Fish and Wildlife Manager, for a permit to possess the sheep horns. On October 2, 1995, Mr. Hooton denied Mr. Dollar's permit request. Mr. Hooton accepted Mr. Marshall's determination that the animal had not attained eight years of age, but did not provide any additional reasons in support of his decision for refusing the permit. On October 27, 1995, Mr. Dollar appealed that decision to the Deputy Director of Wildlife pursuant to section 103 of the Wildlife Act.
In his decision of May 14, 1996, the Deputy Director of Wildlife dismissed Mr. Dollar's appeal. He found that the ram killed by Mr. Dollar did not meet the minimum legal requirements in effect at that time. He further found that Mr. Dollar should not have relied on the horn annuli method alone to determine whether the sheep was legal. The Deputy Director could find no compelling reason for Mr. Dollar to have a permit to possess an illegal sheep.


The Panel accepts the Deputy Director's submission that it is not uncommon for a ram to have false annuli which will render inaccurate any determinations of aging by horn annuli alone. This may be why the Regulation specifically requires that the age be determined by "true annuli" and provides an alternative method of determining the legality of a ram.
Further, the 1994-95 B.C. Hunting and Trapping Regulations Synopsis,which was referred to by the Deputy Director in his decision, expressly provides that "[h]orn annuli do not constitute a good field guide for aging sheep." The method advocated in the synopsis is to observe whether the ram's horn tip extends upwards beyond the forehead-nose bridge when viewed from the side. Presumably this recommendation owes to the greater chance of error in aging sheep by annuli due to the potential for horn irregularities. It also appears to take into account the increased difficulty of discerning between true and false annuli as a result of these irregularities while in the field where the distance between the hunter and the ram forces the hunter to view the ram's annuli through a spotting scope, as Mr. Dollar did here.



It is reasonable to expect that any hunter who observes an irregularity in annuli would, to ensure that the animal was of legal age, employ alternative aging methods. There was no evidence presented to suggest that this was not reasonably possible. Thus, it is the Panel's view that Mr. Dollar could have, and should have, viewed the ram from the side and determined whether the horn tip extended upwards beyond the forehead-nose bridge. Had he done this, he would have discovered that it did not and that the ram was not even close to meeting the other test for determining legality set out in the Regulation.

Although Mr. Dollar suggested that the "irregular" annulus was a true annulus that could have been deformed due to sickness or slow growth, he presented no evidence that would support this as a probable cause. The Panel prefers the evidence of the Respondent who has significant experience in this area that it was not a true annuli.
Based upon the evidence presented, this Panel concludes that this is not a case where, if all reasonable steps had been taken, the same mistake would have been made. Had Mr. Dollar been more diligent in his inquiries by using the other established method of determining legality, this Panel finds that this error could reasonably have been avoided.

In this case, the Panel agrees with the decision of the Deputy Director that Mr. Dollar is not entitled to a permit. Accordingly, the Panel dismisses the appeal and upholds the Deputy Director's decision.

[The Dude]

Just re-read all 3 threads..... I must be bored, :D

Epic!

[Riverboatfantasy]

Mark......
The way your story is written it appears that you mercy killed an illegal ram THEN PUT YOUR TAG ON IT.........which is just plain STUPID. Which is why people are asking because they can't believe anyone would do that.

The way your story SHOULD read is that you mercy killed a sheep and ground checked it legal THEN put your tag on it.

Its all in the way people are interpretting the information you left out.

we all get it now.......we are all on the same page.

Are you going to be hunting bighorn rams or elk in Alexander Creek valley of MU 4-23 this season? Word is that the elk are plentiful and lots of big ones this year.

[guest]

Sure are some Jack ___s on here that have to toot their own horn in a jealous tone ......... get off your sorry as__ and work as hard as Mark and others to get the quality of animals they get ..... then ya might have something to talk about........

also ya gotta love how some of these Jack as_ ! get blown or kicked off the site only to rise again under a different Name ...... your not fooling any one.

CT

[835]

Dude you were bored werent you?
I think it worked

[doubled]

I predict Mark will have another similiar tale shortly.

[The Dude]

Have no fear........ :D

[Ourea]

I predict Mark will have another similiar tale shortly.

King of story telling for sure.
Most enjoy reading about his purported adventures.
He loves the attention.
Win for both sides.

[Walking Buffalo]

A Saskatchewan Mulie that has survived for several years after losing a hind leg.


http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy10/keetspics/ThreeleggedSaskMulie.jpg


There is a book called "Kananaskis Ram", the real life account of a three year old, legged ram that was shot many years later.


We all make judgement calls everyday. To decide an animals fate with lethal action eliminates future possibilites.

Make your call, but don't be so nieve as to think there was only one other possible outcome for the animal.

[budismyhorse]

Are you going to be hunting bighorn rams or elk in Alexander Creek valley of MU 4-23 this season? Word is that the elk are plentiful and lots of big ones this year.

No I won't be hunting Rocky Mountain Bighorn Rams of the Alexander Creek Valley of the Elk River Watershed in the Kootenay River Basin in 2012. Nor Elk.......the Pods have that place wrapped up. .......

This thread was awesome

[bc sportsman]

Wow...I'm planning on doing my first sheep hunting next year. I'm thinking that I should keep the details of my sheep hunt to myself if there are any unusual circumstances. I don't know Mark or any of the other persons who posted on this thread. Should I ever encounter a suffering animal that is doomed not to survive very long, I would hope that I would put it out of its misery, report what I had done and why, and take the chance on the consequences. I know the ram turned out legal but that's not the point I am taking from this story. I also know some COs lack common sense etc...just like we encounter in every enforcement agency. Would have to take that chance. Getting a tad sensitive to the suffering of others, including animals, as I grow old and feeble.

I doubt I will ever run into the circumstances that Marc ran into. Regardless, this is an interesting story.

[limit time]

I suppose I should of mentioned that rams, and wild Images were not allowed to play, kind of took the guess work away from the rest of the crowd!
Someone asked if this was a highway hike, if you followed my other threads, you'd know it was a fly in, then a long hike in to a very remote spot!

We never saw another hunter the entire 13 days, I was rather shocked to find both a freshly killed ram, as well a wounded one!

Since the cat is kinda out of the bag, the ram did CI at 9 years, but I would of NEVER shot this ram on age, no matter how good a look I had.
Ill post some close ups of the iffy rings!

Imagine if you had this image in your spotter, could anyone safely count 8 enough to shoot???

http://www.huntingbc.ca/../photos/data/500/sheep_trip_II_060_Small_.jpg
&
How about now????
It will never get any closer than this!!!!

http://www.huntingbc.ca/../photos/data/500/sheep_trip_II_064_Small_.jpg
Anyone want to do the arrow thing to show the viewers 9 annuli????
Rams may not play as he's seen even closer shots!
C'mon Carl do us yer best!

Yes I'm a noob!
Why is this guy not legal? Did he need to be a mature ram? If not, it looks like the tip goes past the magical line.

[Rackmastr]

Yes I'm a noob!
Why is this guy not legal? Did he need to be a mature ram? If not, it looks like the tip goes past the magical line.

When talking about legal curl requirements (and not age), take a look at the regs on the difference with bighorns and thinhorns. That should explain it well enough for you. This is a thinhorn ram and not a bighorn.

[limit time]

When talking about legal curl requirements (and not age), take a look at the regs on the difference with bighorns and thinhorns. That should explain it well enough for you. This is a thinhorn ram and not a bighorn.

Oh...! It has to go to the bridge of the nose! Thanks!

[The Dude]

IF this were a Bighorn, and not a Stones Ram (Thinhorn), I believe the requirements are as such.

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Heliox18/Hunting/CurlSheepDiagram.jpg

I'm quite sure I will be corrected if off by even a millimeter. :D