Bighorn sheep hunting rules complex, judge told

[skibum]

There are many often complex rules bighorn sheep hunters must follow as they try to decide if the animals in their sights are legal to shoot, a provincial court judge was told Wednesday.
Conservation officer Gary Kruger was called by the Crown to testify at the trial of Kenneth Eng, a Kelowna man accused of shooting a bighorn sheep near Spences Bridge that was not big enough to meet the harvest rules.
The conservation service was tipped off to the shooting by Spences Bridge locals who had been watching this particular sheep and believed it was not legal.
Eng argues the sheep is legal. He punched his hunting tag when he shot it and took it to a taxidermist to be mounted. There is no suggestion the animal was killed without a licence or in a closed season.
To be considered a legal ram in the hunting region around Spences Bridge, a ram must be what the regulations consider a "mature ram," meaning its horns curl completely around with the tip passing the bridge of the nose, or it is more than eight years old. A ram's age can often be determined by counting the rings of growth on the horns. Sheep grow one "annuli" every year.
Kruger said he went to a Kelowna taxidermist Oct. 31, 2008, to inspect the ram. It had already been skinned and cleaned and was waiting to be mounted.
The officer said when viewed from the side, the ram was clearly not "full curl," so he checked the annuli. After looking closely, he formed the opinion it was not possible to determine the age and as a result, could not conclude the ram was legal to shoot.
"I could not count the annuli. I could not make the distinction there were eight distinct annuli," Kruger said. "There were doubts on my part."
Kruger seized the horns. Weeks later Eng was charged.
Defence lawyer George Wool asked Kruger how much experience the officer had in aging sheep, being he has only been working in the interior a short while.
The officer said he has experience as a sheep hunter, adding he knows the rules well about how to determine the legality of an animal.
He said he never trusts counting annuli in the field to judge the age of an animal.
"When I hunted sheep I didn't count annuli, because it is too fine a distinction to make. Before I pulled the trigger, I made sure (the horns) went past the bridge of the nose. That way I was sure," Kruger said.
"The common mistake I see in my job is that people do not take the time," he added. "If the horns are not long enough, the hunter had better know what he is doing to count annuli."


Source: http://www.kamloopsnews.ca/article/20110921/KAMLOOPS0101/110929950/-1/kamloops/bighorn-sheep-hunting-rules-complex-judge-told

[ianwuzhere]

I think in the hunting regs it says somewheres Dont use annuli to determine the age of a ram while hunting because the animal may have false annuli to always go by the curl..

[wos]

Yes the regs request you don't use horn annuli. But the hard fast rule is if its over eight its legal.

[Bighorn hunter]

So what was the outcome from the judge?

[Jagermeister]

I do believe this CO is mis-interpeting the regulations. He is stating the requirements for thinhorn and this case involves a bighorn. From the synopsis : page 4

Mountain Sheep

- Full Curl Bighorn Ram


- means any male bighorn mountain sheep,


the head of which, when viewed squarely from

the side, has at least one horn tip extending
upwards beyond a straight line drawn through
the centre of the nostril and the lowest
hindmost portion of the horn base. If the skull
and horns are presented for examination, when
viewed squarely from the side with both horns
in alignment, at least one horn tip extends
upward beyond a straight line drawn through
the lowest hindmost portion of the horn base





and the lowermost edge of the eye socket.


The CO is confused! Bighorn do not have to extend to or above the bridge of the nose. Maybe they should transfer him to FSJ.

[RJ]

Full curl bighorn and mature bighorn aren't the same Jager

[silvertipp]

Jag you better check your regs
If im not wrong were this sheep was taken its not a full curl season its Mature Ram only wich does indeed need a horn tip to cross the nose

[Jagermeister]

Yup, I stand corrected. Missed that third bighorn designation. Good thing I got you guys around to keep me up on the regulations.......... and I mean that. Thank you.

[bigwhiteys]

They've already had a couple days of trial several months ago and it was continued yesterday. They've got another day in court today I think.

Carl

[Bighorn hunter]

been waiting a long time to see which way this goes

[Stone Sheep Steve]

This one is loooong overdue.
That ram would have broke the bridge of his nose by now....if he was still alive.

SSS

[bigwhiteys]

There will be some interesting details come out for sure. There has been plenty of expert testimony.

Carl

[fireguy]

the rules state that if it is over 8 it is legal, end of story. If this CO could not determine the age, couldn't count 8 annuli, in fact has no idea how old it is, then he should have got a second opinion.
Not to mention, if he went to the taxidermist on Oct 31, the sheep had probably already been inspected, pinned and the horns popped off the skull.

[bigwhiteys]

the rules state that if it is over 8 it is legal, end of story. If this CO could not determine the age, couldn't count 8 annuli, in fact has no idea how old it is, then he should have got a second opinion.Not to mention, if he went to the taxidermist on Oct 31, the sheep had probably already been inspected, pinned and the horns popped off the skull.

Do we even know if this ram actually ever was in the hands of a competent CI? The CO claims he is an experienced sheep hunter (which one could argue because he can't age this ram), but he makes no mention of being a CI.

Carl

[houndogger]

Wasn't this the ram that was on here last year?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I believe the ram was intercepted before it was taken to a CI....which was a good thing as the closest inspector was as incompetent at aging sheep as they come. I'm sure he would have aged that ram at 10 or so:-?.

The question is...did the hunter attempt to age that ram before he shot???...and if so how much time did he spend aging that ram?

SSS

[bigwhiteys]

I believe the ram was intercepted before it was taken to a CI....which was a good thing

A good thing? No due process is a good thing? If they felt so strongly it was underage they could have disagreed with the incompetent CI, even exposed his crappy inspecting or went higher up the chain. Dontcha think?


The question is...did the hunter attempt to age that ram before he shot???

I don't think that's the question coming up in court. He is an experienced sheep hunter by my understanding, and knew the ram did not meet the full curl regulation, therefore he would have had to attempt to age in the field.

Carl

[Rodd]

A friend of mine harvested a large ram in that area prior to it being Mature Ram rule, when it was just full curl. Took it in for inspection, and they confirmed it legal full curl.. Only to have a CO confiscate it later saying that he "thought" it was illegal... long story later, after threatening the CO with a court date, it was re-inspected, and the CO was forced to return the Ram by his superior's to the home of my friend....(took 3 months!!) Just goes to show you that a jealous CO can cause alot of grieF!!! the ram was 38x16 and was no doubt's about it legal by age as well as curl... it was 9 years old... But what a tonne of crap they had to go through to make it right!!! If you sheep hunt, be ready for the ridicule of jealous hunters/CO's! Not sure this is the case here.... I would never shoot a Ram based on age myself!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

A good thing? No due process is a good thing? If they felt so strongly it was underage they could have disagreed with the incompetent CI, even exposed his crappy inspecting or went higher up the chain. Dontcha think?





I don't think that's the question coming up in court. He is an experienced sheep hunter by my understanding, and knew the ram did not meet the full curl regulation, therefore he would have had to attempt to age in the field.

Carl

His incompetent inspecting "has" been exposed.


So you're saying he actualy "did" attempt to age this ram??


SSS

[hellojello74]

Where are you guys getting details on the proceedings? published or word of mouth? Just wanting to follow along.

[bigwhiteys]

So you're saying he actualy "did" attempt to age this ram??

The ram wasn't full curl... Obviously. The hunter in question was an experienced sheep hunter... So... He either shot it not giving a shit! (unlikely since he took it to a taxidermist to be mounted?) or he shot it after carefully determining what he thought to be an 8 year old ram.

Which do you think he did?

Whether or not he aged the ram in the field is your question not the courts question. The court just wants to know hold old the ram is so they can give it back or take it away.

Carl

[Weatherby Fan]

Hey Carl what was their reasoning on making spences sheep mature instead of leaving it full curl

[bigwhiteys]

Hey Carl what was their reasoning on making spences sheep mature instead of leaving it full curl

I am not the guy to ask...?

Carl

[Stone Sheep Steve]

The ram wasn't full curl... Obviously. The hunter in question was an experienced sheep hunter... So... He either shot it not giving a shit! (unlikely since he took it to a taxidermist to be mounted?) or he shot it after carefully determining what he thought to be an 8 year old ram.

Which do you think he did?

Whether or not he aged the ram in the field is your question not the courts question. The court just wants to know hold old the ram is so they can give it back or take it away.

Carl

So he had experience aging and shooting bighorns in a "mature bighorn" area before?? Had he even hunted in a "mature bighorn" area before??

What I "think" he did is irrelevant. What he actually "did" is relevant. Was that ram given "due dilligence"?

I completely agree that the court should focus on the age of the ram.

SSS

[bigwhiteys]

So he had experience aging and shooting bighorns in a "mature bighorn" area before?? Had he even hunted in a "mature bighorn" area before??

Those are questions you'll have to ask him, do they matter for the final age of the ram.... No.


Was that ram given "due dilligence"?

What would you consider to be due diligence before taking a ram? Does a guy need to sit there for 5 hours studying it? Do his peers need to pat his back and tell him it's ok? Or does he wait until he feels confident based on his own experience?

The court case is about the final age of the ram... That should be it.

Carl

[Rubberfist]

the rules state that if it is over 8 it is legal, end of story. If this CO could not determine the age, couldn't count 8 annuli, in fact has no idea how old it is, then he should have got a second opinion.
Not to mention, if he went to the taxidermist on Oct 31, the sheep had probably already been inspected, pinned and the horns popped off the skull.

I couldn't agree more, however here is the wording of the current regs:


Mountain Sheep - Mature Bighorn Ram

– means any bighorn ram mountain sheep that
has attained the age of 8 years as evidenced by
true horn annuli as determined by the regional
manager or designate, or whose horn tip,
when viewed squarely from the side extends
upwards beyond the forehead-nose bridge.

The problem with the "8 years old, end of story" position is the determination of age.

Reading the regs literally, a hunter is not permitted to make a determination of a ram's legality based on annuli - only the "regional manager or a designate" is vested with the power to do that. However this is an arguementative ball of twine: technically a hunter should not shoot any ram that does not meet the minimum horn curl requirement, because at the end of the day, only the CI/CO's determination matters as per the regs. Yet, broomed rams, or less than minimum horn curl requirement rams are shot by hunters and subsequently passed by CI/CO's because they meet the annuli requirment. This in turn leads to the accepted practice of hunters making judgement calls based on annuli. I'm uncertain as to what "charge" the hunter in this case is facing, however as many rams not meeting minimum curl standards have been passed, with the underlying fact being that said ram was shot because a hunter made an age call, it is a formidable challenge to successful "prosecute" an individual for what has become an "accepted" practice.

The other relevant thing to note is that, again as per the regs, the only apparent means of determining age is by "true horn annuli". Can a "charged" individual appeal to a biologist to the age determined by another means?

[Gilmore]

Even if the hunter looked at the ram for 2 seconds before shooting it, if it's eight it's eight. Not the way I would do it or like to see others do it but I would think the court only cares whether the ram is of legal age or not.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

The court case is about the final age of the ram... That should be it.

Carl

If that ram is in fact 8 yrs old then he should get to keep it. I agree.
..but what if that ram is only 7??
Should they just take it away?? Throw the book at him??..or somewhere in between?? Honest mistake? Ignorance of the regulations? Lack of due dilligence? Lots of other hunters passed on that ram....in an area that had a history with illegal rams being taken. As hunters, we need to hold our peers accountable as illegal rams can affect the hunting seasons....and that affects all of us.

Personally, I like to see people get what they deserve..whether it's "good" or "bad".
That's when those other questions need to be answered....but as a prosecuter, I'd make sure I asked them.

SSS

[Whonnock Boy]

What is, or was stopping the accused of getting it aged with the tooth to strengthen his case? His experience told him that the ram was of legal age based on annuli. Back that knowledge up with the tooth, and I would think his case would be pretty strong, providing he could find ungulate tooth ageing experts.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

What is, or was stopping the accused of getting it aged with the tooth to strengthen his case? His experience told him that the ram was of legal age based on annuli. Back that knowledge up with the tooth, and I would think his case would be pretty strong, providing he could find ungulate tooth ageing experts.

Teeth were tossed before the ram was seized.

[Rubberfist]

What is, or was stopping the accused of getting it aged with the tooth to strengthen his case? His experience told him that the ram was of legal age based on annuli. Back that knowledge up with the tooth, and I would think his case would be pretty strong, providing he could find ungulate tooth ageing experts.

This was one of my points and queries above. According to the regs, horn annuli are used to determine age. Will a court allow"expert" evidence that helps determine age which is outside the scope of the regulations? If so, will this ultimately be counter-productive?

The big worry here is that the regulations be amended to exclude any determinations of a ram's legality based on age, whatsoever (i.e. a ram can only be passed based on meeting the minimum curl requirement).

[Jagermeister]

Teeth were tossed before the ram was seized.I don't understand. Why would the teeth be tossed?

[Whonnock Boy]

This was one of my points and queries above. According to the regs, horn annuli are used to determine age. Will a court allow"expert" evidence that helps determine age which is outside the scope of the regulations? If so, will this ultimately be counter-productive?

The big worry here is that the regulations be amended to exclude any determinations of a ram's legality based on age, whatsoever (i.e. a ram can only be passed based on meeting the minimum curl requirement).

I guess what I am trying to say is that, if he and his experts believe that is full curl based on annuli, the tooth would solidify that. I understand what you are saying though.

SSS, lets pretend he had the tooth.

[Jagermeister]

One thing that you can be sure of here. If the thread topic is sheep, it goes a long way and usually is highly controversial.

[Whonnock Boy]

I don't understand. Why would the teeth be tossed?

The incisor tooth located in the lower jaw is used, not the upper.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

The incisor tooth located in the lower jaw is used, not the upper.

Right. Lower jaw was removed and tossed in a bone pile with several other sheep. Would have been a crap shoot to pick the right one...if the scavengers left any behind.

SSS

[bigwhiteys]

Should they just take it away?? Throw the book at him??..or somewhere in between?? Honest mistake? Ignorance of the regulations? Lack of due dilligence? Lots of other hunters passed on that ram....in an area that had a history with illegal rams being taken. As hunters, we need to hold our peers accountable as illegal rams can affect the hunting seasons....and that affects all of us.

I am in 100% agreeance with you that we need to hold our peers accountable. I am sure if it's illegal the court will come up with some sort of punishment that nobody will be happy with. :)


Personally, I like to see people get what they deserve..whether it's "good" or "bad".

Thankfully you're not in a position of authority in our society, because when people are quite possibly innocent, or at least not deemed guilty yet they deserve a fair shake without someones personal agenda driving justice.


That's when those other questions need to be answered....but as a prosecuter, I'd make sure I asked them.

No they don't... They are completely irrelevant to the final age of the ram. If he's 8 he's 8... If he's 7 he's 7. For the sake of our tax dollars and the hunters personal life I hope it all ends soon! You watch too much law and order :)

Carl

[Mountain Man]

I was just looking at the pics of the ram again.

In the field photo you can clearly see the tip does not break the nose but the tip indeed goes through the line from the eye to the nose.

In the field photo you can clearly count 6 years on the ram. The question is if there is 2 years growth near the base of the skull. I would estimate 2.5 inches from the last visible annuli to the skull, can a ram cram two more anuli in that distance.

I look at it and get 7 years myself, the other thing to note is that the ram is a mature specimen its thick and heavy and its a dream ram i know Spences has good genetics and get rams that are full curl as young as 6 or 7 years old.

Cant wait to hear the outcome of this one..........

[Maxx]

If that ram is in fact 8 yrs old then he should get to keep it. I agree.
..but what if that ram is only 7??
Should they just take it away?? Throw the book at him??..or somewhere in between?? Honest mistake? Ignorance of the regulations? Lack of due dilligence? Lots of other hunters passed on that ram....in an area that had a history with illegal rams being taken. As hunters, we need to hold our peers accountable as illegal rams can affect the hunting seasons....and that affects all of us.

Personally, I like to see people get what they deserve..whether it's "good" or "bad".
That's when those other questions need to be answered....but as a prosecuter, I'd make sure I asked them.

SSS

I also love to see people get what they deserve. So what is the CO's took that ram away from this hunter because of a personal vendetta, what should happen to them? What if the top sheep experts in the province exposed the CO's for being incompetent at aging sheep, how should the hunter be compensated for this complete waste of time and money. I still can't understand how the CO's are permitted to take this ram without a warrant from the taxidermist, or at least be required to take it to a "certified" CI inspector to make the determination on how old the ram is. Who says these CO's get to play god all by themselves? They certainly have dragged this on long enough hoping that this hunter will give up, and they will win by default..

[Stone Sheep Steve]

CO's routinely inspect animals in the field at game checks.....including sheep along the Alaska Hwy. Don't you think they are allowed to seize what they think is an illegal animal..before it arrives at a CI's??

[Mr. Dean]

CO's routinely inspect animals in the field at game checks.....including sheep along the Alaska Hwy. Don't you think they are allowed to seize what they think is an illegal animal..before it arrives at a CI's??

But did it get to a CI?
Them are the ones that are trained in aging sheep. No?

Does a CO have the authority to plug a ram?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

But did it get to a CI?
Them are the ones that are trained in aging sheep. No?

Does a CO have the authority to plug a ram?

"Probably" ended up in the Regional manager's hands who has governing authority over the CI's(I believe).

Here's one example of why I support the CO's power to seize what they deem an illegal ram...before it arrives at a CI's office.....
I've "heard" of people shooting a short young ram and once they get it home they "somehow" bind it up with ropes (or something else?) so the curl becomes legal. They cut the ropes just before they arrive at the CI..get it plugged and take it home where it slowly returns to it's previous state.

Many CO's used to perform CI duties...as well.

SSS

[bighornbob]

To answer a few questions from a few posters.

1.The only outcome possibleis, is the ram legal or not and thats what the courts will decide. If its 7 and its deemed the guy spent enough time trying to judge the age of the ram, the guy will not be charged but he will also not get to keep the ram. There have been previous cases on this. You may not be charged becuase of an honest mistake but the bottom line is you shot a illegal ram and hence you do not get to keep it. If it is deemed that the hunter did not spend enough time ageing the ram then he will be charged. If the ram is 8 years of age, regardless of how long it was judged the guy will get to keep it.

2. CO's can only seize and in this case they did. The regional Bios, not the CO's or the CI's have the final say in regards to legality. I have talked to a competant CI'er and he said they are told to only count annuli. If it does not have eight (regardless of brooming) the CO's are called to come get the ram and a BIO is supposed to age it and figure out how much may have broomed off. As we have seen in the past, some CI's are counting the annuli wrong.

3. In the case of the above ram, the bio's made the final call that it was not 8 years of age.

4. The area went to mature full curl becuase to many young rams were being killed. In the past there were years where 30+ rams were taken out of one unit. This area has fantastic genes and marginal winters so the horns grow fast. There have been 3-4 year olds that met the old full curl regulation. Once the mature rule came in the harvest dropped to about 4-5 legal rams a year and sometimes just as many illegal ones (short on horn length or age).

BHB

[frenchbar]

[QUOTE=Stone Sheep Steve;982761]


I've "heard" of people shooting a short young ram and once they get it home they "somehow" bind it up with ropes (or something else?) so the curl becomes legal. They cut the ropes just before they arrive at the CI..get it plugged and take it home where it slowly returns to it's previous state.

some how that dont surprize me much lol ...anything to stroke their egos and have that gotta have head on a wall .

[Maxx]

CO's routinely inspect animals in the field at game checks.....including sheep along the Alaska Hwy. Don't you think they are allowed to seize what they think is an illegal animal..before it arrives at a CI's??


Of course a CO can confiscate a ram at a game check, but in this situation how much experience does a CO from Vancouver Island have aging sheep? Why not wait until the CI is done?


The sad fact remains that so much money and time has been wasted on the birthday of a sheep, a ram that is a "book"ram. Something's gotta be wrong somewhere when a book ram is not legal.

[bighornbob]

Something's gotta be wrong somewhere when a book ram is not legal.

Where do you then draw the line on whats a legal ram? Do we now include B&C score to the list of what is legal?? Its hard enough for guys to age a sheep and now we should ask them to score the sheep??

Personally I think its good that a few "book" sheep may never be legal because of horn curl so it lets a few live and show the youner rams how things are done. The koots is a perfect example, regardless of age or score if its not full curl its not legal.

BHB

[Maxx]

Where do you then draw the line on whats a legal ram? Do we now include B&C score to the list of what is legal?? Its hard enough for guys to age a sheep and now we should ask them to score the sheep??

Personally I think its good that a few "book" sheep may never be legal because of horn curl so it lets a few live and show the youner rams how things are done. The koots is a perfect example, regardless of age or score if its not full curl its not legal.

BHB


You just said that they changed Spences because the horns grew too quickly to full curl, now you want it to go that way like the koots??

As for a book Ram not being legal, I am not saying that it is up to the hunter to decide in the field, but my statement was a general thought that how much bigger does a ram have to get before it is legal. As a sheephunter, don't you want to kill the largest legal ram that you can find? a book ram is the dream for most hunters.

As for the young rams needing a leader, do you really think that is an issue in Spences?

[j270wsm]

Is anyone willing to post a pic of the ram in question?

[BillBraskii]

Is anyone willing to post a pic of the ram in question?

x2
or a link to the original thread??

[Gilmore]

....my statement was a general thought that how much bigger does a ram have to get before it is legal.

Not to sound flippant but in the Spences/Lytton area its over the nose or 8 years old...thats how much bigger it has to be. Its pretty simple, book ram or not. I'll likely get blasted by some for this but maybe they should take the aging component out of bighorns. It would be interesting to see a a stat that showed how many bighorns get harvested with horn length and how many are harvested with annuli as well as how many screw ups there were with both criteria.

[BCrams]

The court just wants to know hold old the ram is so they can give it back or take it away.

Carl

For curiosities sake can you mark up the ram with the shades of blue and numbers like you do with nearly all rams posted and show what you know the age to be considering you're good at this stuff!!


I get 7 years on the Spences ram.

[David Heitsman]

Win lose or draw in court, the hunter is unlikely to get his sheep or any other animal back. I've been told that by CO's and attorneys. You're better off (cheaper) to plead guilty, pay your fine and move on. It wasn't a blatant poaching manouver and this would be recognized by CO officials. BTW, an 'any ram' LEH would solve these issues once and for all.

[bigwhiteys]

For curiosities sake can you mark up the ram with the shades of blue and numbers like you do with nearly all rams posted and show what you know the age to be considering you're good at this stuff!! I get 7 years on the Spences ram.

Sorry, the courts can decide the outcome. Photoshop isn't that hard to learn.

Carl

[bighornbob]

BTW, an 'any ram' LEH would solve these issues once and for all.

It would also put and end to sheep hunting in that area for 95% of the people that hunt that area right now.

BHB

[BCrams]

Sorry, the courts can decide the outcome. Photoshop isn't that hard to learn.

Carl

Do you think the ram is 8 ? or you do not know what it is?

You have an opinion with every ram on the net on age except this one .... forget the courts ..... what do you say it is?

[BCrams]

It wasn't a blatant poaching manouver and this would be recognized by CO officials.

I agree it wasn't intentional poaching.

[bigwhiteys]

You have an opinion with every ram on the net on age except this one .... forget the courts ..... what do you say it is?

Get over yourself it's not in your hands.

Carl

[BCrams]

Get over yourself it's not in your hands.

Carl

Grin - I have an interest in this case just like every single sheep hunter out there who is following this case.

I just find it mildly interesting you won't touch this single ram on the HBC forums ........ playing devils advocate .... almost as though you're on the defence side (wink).

Just the net though and everythings a grain of salt.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Is anyone willing to post a pic of the ram in question?

Here's several live pics of the ram in question.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?27027-Spences-Bridge-Ram
I deleted other pics of the caped-out skull..which I won't post again.
The other similar ram from spences that I posted and deleted(with his lambtips) made it obvious this ram in question was only 7. There's no way he's broomed off at least 12" of horn. No way....no matter what th courts decide.

[bigwhiteys]

Grin - I have an interest in this case just like every single sheep hunter out
there who is following this case. I just find it mildly interesting you
won't touch this single ram on the HBC forums ........

There are plenty of rams on HBC I've never commented on.

Carl

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Here's several live pics of the ram in question.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?27027-Spences-Bridge-Ram
I deleted other pics of the caped-out skull..which I won't post again.
The other similar ram from spences that I posted and deleted(with his lambtips) made it obvious this ram in question was only 7. There's no way he's broomed off at least 12" of horn. No way....no matter what th courts decide.


Here's the ram in question compared to my genetically inferior rocky from the same herd. The ram in question has gobs of mass compared to my little "dink"...but then again I'm a "dink hunter":mrgreen:.

http://members.shaw.ca/stevensml/hunting/sheep3_800x600.jpg

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/pics_001.jpg

As I said the ram in question would to have broomed off a "minimum" of 12"(most likely more) for him to be 8....which would have made him a 52" ram at the age of 8. Likely??? Not.

SSS

[BCrams]

There are plenty of rams on HBC I've never commented on.

Carl

True! But any ram that had legality issues in the past i.e., CI inspected rams as 8 when they were 6 or 7 etc ... you always commented or upon request by others.

You just won't touch this one!!

[Walking Buffalo]

In the 20 pages of the old thread on this ram and in this thread, calls for LEH are often made.

For the lack of conservation concerns and the loss of hunter opportunity, there is a good argument to be made that a complete LEH in this area is unnecessary.

Here in Alberta, we are unfortunately going throught the process of possibly having large areas of general Ram 4/5 curl hunting put on draw due to a unconfirmed lack of mature rams.

I've made the same suggestion here in Alberta for some areas, it gets mixed reviews. I think most opposed to it just don't understand what I'm suggesting....


How about this option for Spences Bridge ?

General Tag for "Mature" over the nose curl Rams, NO age option...

and an LEH for 3/4 or Any Ram....

The public still has access to unlimited opportunity, and those lucky enough to draw the LEH would have controlled access to the big old boys who don't make the Mature curl requirement.


Having moved from BC 15 years ago, I'm not completly up to date on the BC draw system. Does BC already have a similar system in some sheep hunting areas? If yes, does it work?

[6616]

maybe they should take the aging component out of bighorns. It would be interesting to see a a stat that showed how many bighorns get harvested with horn length and how many are harvested with annuli as well as how many screw ups there were with both criteria.

I suspect this is the way to go, take away the age criteria and make hunters decide on horn length alone. We had to do that in the Koots many years ago, it's really very difficult to age live bighorns by annulli compared to thinhorns. The illegal ram harvest was dramatically reduced in the Koots after this change was made.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

In the 20 pages of the old thread on this ram and in this thread, calls for LEH are often made.

For the lack of conservation concerns and the loss of hunter opportunity, there is a good argument to be made that a complete LEH in this area is unnecessary.

Here in Alberta, we are unfortunately going throught the process of possibly having large areas of general Ram 4/5 curl hunting put on draw due to a unconfirmed lack of mature rams.

I've made the same suggestion here in Alberta for some areas, it gets mixed reviews. I think most opposed to it just don't understand what I'm suggesting....


How about this option for Spences Bridge ?

General Tag for "Mature" over the nose curl Rams, NO age option...

and an LEH for 3/4 or Any Ram....

The public still has access to unlimited opportunity, and those lucky enough to draw the LEH would have controlled access to the big old boys who don't make the Mature curl requirement.


Having moved from BC 15 years ago, I'm not completly up to date on the BC draw system. Does BC already have a similar system in some sheep hunting areas? If yes, does it work?

We have a similar system in "some areas" for californian bighorns. Full curl bighorn GOS and 3/4 curl LEH. Lets everyone hunt for those elusive full curl rams and others take the heavily broomed rams that would otherwise die of old age. Vast maroirty of calis won't be full curl later if life...but it does happen.

Sheep are doing well at Spences and there were ZERO illegal rams taken in 2010. Luck?? Education?? Both? Dunno.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I suspect this is the way to go, take away the age criteria and make hunters decide on horn length alone. We had to do that in the Koots many years ago, it's really very difficult to age live bighorns by annulli compared to thinhorns. The illegal ram harvest was dramatically reduced in the Koots after this change was made.

I have a feeling that if this guy gets to keep his ram, we may lose the age criteria at Spences.

Personally, I hope it doesn't change.

SSS

[mark]

Years ago when this sheep was shot I knew far less about aging rams, I figured there would be another ring missing at the tip.......if this was a stone sheep, Id say 8 for sure....but as a ROCKY and using SSS's ram as example (with at least a 4 inch lamb tip) this ram get 7 by my count, and Ive had the horns in hand!
Eagerly awaiting the court outcome on this one!

[bighornbob]

but then again I'm a "dink hunter":mrgreen:. SSS

Thats why BCrams likes hunting with you:):):):)

[Walking Buffalo]

We have a similar system in "some areas" for californian bighorns. Full curl bighorn GOS and 3/4 curl LEH. Lets everyone hunt for those elusive full curl rams and others take the heavily broomed rams that would otherwise die of old age. Vast maroirty of calis won't be full curl later if life...but it does happen.

Sheep are doing well at Spences and there were ZERO illegal rams taken in 2010. Luck?? Education?? Both? Dunno.

IF there were to be changes at Spences, does a General season "Mature Curl" (NO age option) with an additional LEH 3/4 curl option sound like a better direction than LEH only?

The question is for everyone.


Regarding the court case ram, I see 7 annulie. It will be interesting....

[BCrams]

Here's Carl's drawing of the Spences ram. He's got 8.5 Not sure if he still has the same opinion today but wouldn't be surprised if its still 8.5.

Using conventional Stone's sheep aging process I figured the same at one point until I got a little lesson from one of the best on bighorn age and growth (along with ample photo's via e-mails) that bighorns are much different than those of Stone's sheep. With a good background and understanding, I was able to see the differences pretty quick.

This ram is actually 7 years old and not 8.

http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/bighornage.jpg

[Walking Buffalo]

^^

But only 7 visible annulie.

The judges interpretation of the regulations will be interesting....

[6616]

In the 20 pages of the old thread on this ram and in this thread, calls for LEH are often made.

For the lack of conservation concerns and the loss of hunter opportunity, there is a good argument to be made that a complete LEH in this area is unnecessary.

Here in Alberta, we are unfortunately going throught the process of possibly having large areas of general Ram 4/5 curl hunting put on draw due to a unconfirmed lack of mature rams.

I've made the same suggestion here in Alberta for some areas, it gets mixed reviews. I think most opposed to it just don't understand what I'm suggesting....


How about this option for Spences Bridge ?

General Tag for "Mature" over the nose curl Rams, NO age option...

and an LEH for 3/4 or Any Ram....

The public still has access to unlimited opportunity, and those lucky enough to draw the LEH would have controlled access to the big old boys who don't make the Mature curl requirement.


Having moved from BC 15 years ago, I'm not completly up to date on the BC draw system. Does BC already have a similar system in some sheep hunting areas? If yes, does it work?

The trouble with a 3/4 curl LEH is that a lot of 3 to 5 year old rams will be shot. It would be nice if only the old broomed off veterans got shot but it rarely works out like that. Rockies are much different than Cali's, most Rockies will reach full curl if they live long enough.

[bigwhiteys]

He's in the minority on this rams age.

I am fine to be in the minority if I am wrong, at least I know I have the balls to stand up for something either way. You're a flavor of the month kinda guy who will say whatever makes you look like a hero at the time. You even congratulated a guy on his clearly illegal underage harvest that was confiscated for christs sake, then played it off like you didn't want to look like the bad guy and call him out on the post. Epic Fail.

Anyone who goes back in that thread (spences) will see just how many times you waffled on that rams age and changed your posts around. Then look at how many times mine changed. I can remain consistent and if I am wrong, I am wrong... You're the only one going to great lengths (outside the courts) to try to prove someone wrong.

I'll take the wind outta your sails Greg, if the ram is 7 then yep I was definitely wrong! Thankfully if I was in the position to shoot, it wouldn't have been dead! And that's on record too! Unedited and unwaffled!

Carl

[BCrams]

Sensitive aren't we today? But I won't draw into your style of arguement. I see too much of Willy442 in it.


Anyone who goes back in that thread (spences) will see just how many times you waffled on that rams age and changed your posts around. Then look at how many times mine changed. I can remain consistent and if I am wrong, I am wrong... You're the only one going to great lengths (outside the courts) to try to prove someone wrong.


During the waffling (a couple times) period I was thrown a curve via e-mail by someone who knew bighorns and I was open minded to be educated. I had never hunted bighorns and was using Stone's as a reference. Unlike someone who's so high on himself and doesn't allow himself to be educated other than by what the sheep sherriff says.

I was the first to admit all this early on too and clearly mentioned I was educated on the matter in the post on rocky mountain bighorns! You're smart Carl and I figured you to be one of those who would pick up on those differences between Stone's and Rockies.



I'll take the wind outta your sails Greg, if the ram is 7 then yep I was definitely wrong! Thankfully if I was in the position to shoot, it wouldn't have been
dead! And that's on record too! Unedited and unwaffled!



No wind out of the saild whatsoever!! Countless efforts by many (far more) experienced sheep hunters than either you or myself have posted regarding aging and growth patterns for rocky mountain bighorns and you refuse to be open minded to learn and realize the difference between Stone's and bighorns and thats fine!! Some people are just bullish and that will not change.

At the end of the day - there's a distinctive difference that is well documented between Rockies and Stone's sheep and you're still in the Stone's sheep phase with rocky bighorn growth. It was a humbling experience on my part regarding rocky mountain bighorn growth learning.

[bigwhiteys]

Sensitive aren't we today? But I won't draw into your style of arguement. I see too much of Willy442 in it.

Greg, you've been baiting me since 8:21 this morning. I want to see want the courts decide and made that pretty clear in my posts, you however could not accept that and went about your mission dragging up posts from 3 years ago because it makes you look like a hero I guess?

You make many other assumptions about me that are simply not worth addressing.

Carl

[BCrams]

Greg, you've been baiting me since 8:21 this morning. I want to see want the courts decide and made that pretty clear in my posts, you however could not accept that and went about your mission dragging up posts from 3 years ago because it makes you look like a hero I guess?

You make many other assumptions about me that are simply not worth addressing.

Carl

It has nothing to do with being a hero (is this willy?). Its about educating hunters. Just imagine how many potential underage illegal rams may get taken if hunters, who have a lot of respect regarding your aging ability with Stone's sheep ... take that drawing that is still on here of a rocky mountain bighorn and use it as a template to shoot a Rocky Mountain Bighorn. That is what it comes down to. Nothing more, nothing less.

That is why there's a vested interest by a lot of hunters, both sheep and non sheep alike that are paying attention to the outcome of this.

[bigwhiteys]

It has nothing to do with being a hero (is this willy?). Its about
educating hunters. Just imagine how many potential underage illegal rams may get
taken if hunters, who have a lot of respect regarding your aging ability with
Stone's sheep ... take that drawing that is still on here of a rocky mountain
bighorn and use it as a template to shoot a Rocky Mountain Bighorn. That is what
it comes down to. Nothing more, nothing less.


Then they also would have read multiple times that I would not have shot the ram based on age alone nor recommended anyone else do so... it would be a pretty risky decision with no margin for error. Spin it whatever way you have to Greg.

Carl

[BCrams]

Then they also would have read multiple times that I would not have shot the ram based on age alone nor recommended anyone else do so... it would be a pretty risky decision with no margin for error. Spin it whatever way you have to Greg.

Carl

Not always Carl. We have a Stone's sheep thread example of a hunter aging a ram using just that method of ring being the 3rd annuli. I believe it was after a post where willy strongly emphasized that point before sheep season....so hunters do take in much of what is posted visually. It is not always the case a hunter will read the fine print about gnarly horn bases etc to add to the decision making when shooting rams like some of us will do. Spin away Carl.

[RJ]

This is what I came up with, although I am still a student when it comes to aging sheep. I figure it was broken at the 1st annuli...

Thoughts?

http://i56.tinypic.com/30uqss2.jpg

[mark]

No more spinning guys, this thread is getting dizzy!
I dont think its been mentioned directly in this thread.....there is only 7 annuli's, of that there is no dispute....the only question is, is there 1 missing due to brooming!!!!!

Also a student here but....
I agree 100% with your findings there RJ!

[BCrams]

No more spinning guys, this thread is getting dizzy!
I dont think its been mentioned directly in this thread.....there is only 7 annuli's, of that there is no dispute....the only question is, is there 1 missing due to brooming!!!!!

How many inches do you think are broomed off that ram? Might help put it into perspective (wink).

[Maxx]

How many inches do you think are broomed off that ram? Might help put it into perspective (wink).

What did Val Geist age this ram at, in the picture and in person?

[bighornbob]

What did Val Geist age this ram at, in the picture and in person?

Why would Val Geist age this ram? Was he part of the trial???

BHB

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Why would Val Geist age this ram? Was he part of the trial???

BHB

There was "rumour" of that before it started but it might have been just smoke??

[RJ]

Heres that ram with a lamb tip pulled of another ram I found on the web
(yes my photoshop skills are a grade 1 level)

http://i51.tinypic.com/rmqm2g.jpg

[Davey Crockett]

When was that picture taken in relation to the harvest?

[mark]

Rj....nice try...but look at the natural taper of the sheeps horn....they were coming to a point pretty quick.......the lamb tip you stuck on there doesnt fit the profile.

Ive held the horns and dont think there was very much missing, but then I havnt studied alot of "rocky's" in detail!!!

Anyone with pics of "rockies" with lamb tips, preferably from the spences area, like SSS has shown us, would be a good learning tool here for many of us!

[bighornbob]

When was that picture taken in relation to the harvest?

About 3-5 days

[MattB]

Lamb tips in spences are around 4 inches

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Lamb tips in spences are around 4 inches

Matt-Is that an average from the bios?? I've heard they typically range from 3-5" with up to 7" in some cases. The little rocky on my wall has 4 3/4 " lambtips and is 13 1/2" up to his second annuli...(heard the average second annuli is 12-15").

SSS

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Here's several live pics of the ram in question.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?27027-Spences-Bridge-Ram
I deleted other pics of the caped-out skull..which I won't post again.
The other similar ram from spences that I posted and deleted(with his lambtips) made it obvious this ram in question was only 7. There's no way he's broomed off at least 12" of horn. No way....no matter what th courts decide.

Sorry to beat a dead(or at least dying) horse.....but if that ram was 8 (he's 39 1/2" or so as is)he would look similar to this 50"+ bighorn...if he hadn't broomed(at least in the length department).
I'm sure you all remember this ram....

http://dnr.state.co.us/ImageDBImages/21630Web.jpg

[coach]

Photshopped. SSS?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Photshopped. SSS?

Nope. 50" plus Colorado rocky. Died of old age.....IIRC.
It was in the news a couple of yrs back.

[MattB]

Matt-Is that an average from the bios?? I've heard they typically range from 3-5" with up to 7" in some cases. The little rocky on my wall has 4 3/4 " lambtips and is 13 1/2" up to his second annuli...(heard the average second annuli is 12-15").

SSS
Just posting from experience. Looked at some small rams on the highway as I was curious as to how long their tips were and 4" seemed around the average on the group I looked at.

[6616]

The rams in the Kicking Horse Canyon almost always have lamb tips greater than 4".
I'd say average is about 5" to 5 1/2", with 7" not being uncommon.

[kgriz]

same old story....sheep aging experts aplenty.....I would have thought a bunch of these experts would have been humbled at the last wild sheep society dinner.....heard that some didn't do as well at the aging as they thought they would....
just say'in

[Tenacious Billy]

same old story....sheep aging experts aplenty.....I would have thought a bunch of these experts would have been humbled at the last wild sheep society dinner.....heard that some didn't do as well at the aging as they thought they would....
just say'in

No doubt....even amidst countless "sheep" threads and all the online "sheep experts", there's still major dissent on aging this ram or that......keeps things entertaining at least.

[Gilmore]

No doubt....even amidst countless "sheep" threads and all the online "sheep experts", there's still major dissent on aging this ram or that......keeps things entertaining at least.


And therein lies the problem. Even here on the web with a fully zoomed in picture with lines drawn on the annuli or little arrows pointing them out there is still argument about the age of some rams. If you can't do it on here from the comforts of home how are supposed to do it while lying on the hillside trying to stay hidden with heat waves form the *35 degree heat making your spotter look like a kaleidoscope. I bet the percentage of sheep hunters that buy a tag every year and can correctly age a bighorn every time is pretty small. For the record I'm one of the "can'ts".

[kgriz]

I'm with you....by the way the "age as determined by horn annuli" can easily become a political decision/answer not hard facts.....its all interpretation by a biologist at the end.
Unless you can magically match this opinion all of the time, there is always the chance that some manager/biologist etc. will call a false annuli etc. that you may not agree with.....Not to bash them, they are just giving an educated guess as well. The regulations state as per horn annuli, not tooth age, true age etc..... This will always leave room for opinions, agendas, politics etc.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I'm with you....by the way the "age as determined by horn annuli" can easily become a political decision/answer not hard facts.....its all interpretation by a biologist at the end.
Unless you can magically match this opinion all of the time, there is always the chance that some manager/biologist etc. will call a false annuli etc. that you may not agree with.....Not to bash them, they are just giving an educated guess as well. The regulations state as per horn annuli, not tooth age, true age etc..... This will always leave room for opinions, agendas, politics etc.

Very true...but I don't think anyone is disagreeing where the annuli are on this ram. Just a matter of which is the first visible annuli... his 1st or second.

What are your thoughts KG?

SSS

[srupp]

I do know I cant do it with enough to have any confidence in my abilities..and I agree with SSS I can count the 3rd annuli to the bases its the first couple...

I sat on the mountain for over 3 hours with SAwaro 65 HD spotting scope...700 yards...20-60x ..and couldnt be certain...even @ 318 yards couldnt do it..had to rely on full curl...

Its a long walk thinking about ground shrinkage..what IF...

I appreciate these posts..BC RAMS,SSS,CARL..EVEN WILLY 442....very knowleagable sheep experts...

Steven

[BillBraskii]

I do know I cant do it with enough to have any confidence in my abilities..and I agree with SSS I can count the 3rd annuli to the bases its the first couple...

I sat on the mountain for over 3 hours with SAwaro 65 HD spotting scope...700 yards...20-60x ..and couldnt be certain...even @ 318 yards couldnt do it..had to rely on full curl...

Its a long walk thinking about ground shrinkage..what IF...

I appreciate these posts..BC RAMS,SSS,CARL..EVEN WILLY 442....very knowleagable sheep experts...

Steven

That's no surprise you cant even tell the difference between a black bear and a grizz skull:mrgreen:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I appreciate these posts..BC RAMS,SSS,CARL..EVEN WILLY 442....very knowleagable sheep experts...

Steven

You can certainly take my name off that list Steven. I'm no expert and the first thread about this ram demonstrated that quite clearly. The experts are the ones that have been studying bighorns for many yrs...trapping, collaring, monitoring, measuring etc.

The great thing about this ram is that it's been a great learning experience for many on HBC plus many other sheep hunters that I know....including the person who originally aged this ram.

I have several friends that have been hunting Spences and some have taken rams over there ..or come very close. All of them "thought" they knew how to age bighorns but this has been a real eye-opener for all. Luckily, no decisions on rams like this have presented themselves in the past and all judgement has been on horn curl alone.

SSS

[srupp]

nope have no idea difference between skulls..had boxes of em...some big some small....slowly gave em away or threw them away..

SSS there are some big differnces in the Stone and the big horn and even the Cali....shows the importance of education on each species..

[mark]

SSS there are some big differnces in the Stone and the big horn and even the Cali....shows the importance of education on each species..

Which leads me to another thought???
Is the lamb tip on a cali, similar to that of a rocky, 4-6" ????

[bigwhiteys]

You can certainly take my name off that list Steven. I'm no expert and the first thread about this ram demonstrated that quite clearly. The experts are the ones that have been studying bighorns for many yrs...trapping, collaring, monitoring, measuring etc.

I agree with you, thankfully the experts are the witnesses in this Case. And to your earlier post, it's not smoke. He was involved with this case back in April but that's all I can say.

There must have been a stay or something for a further court date, because no results anywhere to speak of yet. Not even within the public court docs.

And No, I wouldn't claim to be an expert either.

Carl

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Which leads me to another thought???
Is the lamb tip on a cali, similar to that of a rocky, 4-6" ????


Very similar.
Take a look at this californian bighorn ram and note where his lambtips and 2nd annuli are.......

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6061/6156886093_b350210af1_b.jpg

SSS

[Freshtracks]

Wow ... I need to be on here more. :oops: Missed all this and the original thread.

Sooo ..... after quickly catching up. Thnx SSS for the pics.

Education, education education.

I've noticed a shift in hunters over the years, especially new hunters. The intra web has brought forth the 'need for speed' so to speak.

To all the old timers out there ... how many years was the norm for most new hunters to reach the challenge of chasing sheep? 5, 10 yrs? Here they are fed it yearly and well heck why not toss in a sheep LEH or head north for stones? For today's tenderfoot, the more opportunities in days of hunting the merrier. There's a wealth of info to be found here as a starting point ... where as years ago one pulled teeth to garner such info.

So wouldn't it be in the best interest for hunters and the sport to .... EDUMACATE???

These 2 threads alone reek of quality info for tenderfoots. Opinions may differ but ultimately I hope it 'errs more caution to the wind' for those heading afield year after year.

Just this year alone mark has posted a unrecovered legal? stone. I know all this intra web info doesn't stack up to 'field experience' but SSS just commented on ZERO illegal rams harvested in 2010 for said area. Hopefully it's working and there'll be quality rams for many futures to come.

Sorry for the side track ... I'm a greenhorn sheep hunter. I've hunted Ashnola Cali's x1, Vaseux x1 and region 3, x1. Over the years I've absorbed most every sheep thread, pic judging annuli and controversies .... why? To be better prepared/educated, should I get another attempt at chasing sheep. After all ... it's the utmost respect I owe to my quarry.

In the old thread ... pg.1 ... 1st pic ... I would have never considered dropping the hammer on this ram. I also annuli aged him @ 7yrs. ... as per RJ's description. I was puzzled @ the pic of SSS 'dink ram'... although legal mature, I thought it was like 6.5 per annuli. I judged the suspect ram having broomed 3"-4".

Again far from expert ... but there are some here I'd give a left nut ... to have afield as help if that questionable moment arose. For some tenderfoots ... I'm sure in mind, that's already happened. Yes the outcome will be interesting. I'll refrain my personal 2bits. And look forward to many more in depth discussions just as this. :grin:

[Rockycruz]

Yes Vel Geist was part of the trail, on the picture he aged the ram at 8 1/2 years old, don't know what he testified to in court earlier this year but the second expert witness this week also testified that the ram is indeed 8 1/2 years. old
Why would Val Geist age this ram? Was he part of the trial???

BHB

[stoneguide]

Which leads me to another thought???
Is the lamb tip on a cali, similar to that of a rocky, 4-6" ????

Best way to see what the lamb tip length in a given area is, is by looking at the lambs in late winter and early spring(9months to 1yr old). Lengths vary big time in many areas and as a couple very experienced sheep hunters have told me, many guys call lamb tips way longer than what they really are. Most central to norther sheep be it BC bighorns, stones, yukon dalls or alberta bighorns are more around the 1 - 3" mark with the southern sheep getting a couple inches more on average of coarse with exceptions in certain areas.
There are a ton of perceptions on the lengths of the first year but look at yearlings in the area you hunt and that will give you an idea better than a bunch of guys here can.
SG

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Best way to see what the lamb tip length in a given area is, is by looking at the lambs in late winter and early spring(9months to 1yr old). Lengths vary big time in many areas and as a couple very experienced sheep hunters have told me, many guys call lamb tips way longer than what they really are. Most central to norther sheep be it BC bighorns, stones, yukon dalls or alberta bighorns are more around the 1 - 3" mark with the southern sheep getting a couple inches more on average of coarse with exceptions in certain areas.
There are a ton of perceptions on the lengths of the first year but look at yearlings in the area you hunt and that will give you an idea better than a bunch of guys here can.
SG

That's exactly why the experts in this case should be familiar with the bighorns in the southern interior. Winters are mild and the growing season are much longer than those other areas you mentioned.

SSS

[bigwhiteys]

That's exactly why the experts in this case should be familiar with the bighorns in the southern interior. Winters are mild and the growing season are much longer than those other areas you mentioned. SSS

Being experts... You'd think they would be familiar with the differences.

The case has been delayed again until late october.

Carl

[Maxx]

didn't some of your friends pass on this exact same ram in question? They decided to pass this ram thinking it was 7?


You can certainly take my name off that list Steven. I'm no expert and the first thread about this ram demonstrated that quite clearly. The experts are the ones that have been studying bighorns for many yrs...trapping, collaring, monitoring, measuring etc.

The great thing about this ram is that it's been a great learning experience for many on HBC plus many other sheep hunters that I know....including the person who originally aged this ram.

I have several friends that have been hunting Spences and some have taken rams over there ..or come very close. All of them "thought" they knew how to age bighorns but this has been a real eye-opener for all. Luckily, no decisions on rams like this have presented themselves in the past and all judgement has been on horn curl alone.

SSS

[Rockycruz]

They must be familiar with the growth patterns of big horns everywhere that is why they are an expert!
They are questioned on their expertise both by the crown and by the defense as well as the Judge before they are deemed an expert, so that kind of stuff gets covered to insure accuracy.
The laywers make their submissions mid Oct. Judge's findings should take two to four weeks from then. QUOTE=Stone Sheep Steve;985456]That's exactly why the experts in this case should be familiar with the bighorns in the southern interior. Winters are mild and the growing season are much longer than those other areas you mentioned.

SSS[/QUOTE]

[stoneguide]

Just curious if anyone has any winter pics of the family groups in the area in question?
SG

[fireguy]

I have aged stone sheep in the field and when CI'ed they came up with a different number than I did as well as a lot of other people, but the age was still over 8, CI'ed in the southern interior, not the north, but it goes to show you that there is differences of opinion when it comes to this. As far as bighorns, I would have a hard time field aging them and the only one I have taken was by length and would have had a hard time field scoring him for sure as would most guys here.

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x477/fireguy4/sheep1aad.jpg

Tell me you could age this guy while laying on a shale slide crawling downhill trying to get within range for a shot

[Walking Buffalo]

Just curious if anyone has any winter pics of the family groups in the area in question?
SG

Huey posted these vids and pics including the Ram in question in the original thread.

This vid shows the Ram with a couple of youngsters.

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu6/Huey_st/Spences%20Sheep/th_20081017_0302.jpg (http://s628.photobucket.com/albums/uu6/Huey_st/Spences%20Sheep/?action=view&current=20081017_0302.mp4)

For those with a couple of extra hours, the original thread. There are quite a few pics of the local ewe and young herds.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?27027-Spences-Bridge-Ram

[BCrams]

I
I appreciate these posts..BC RAMS,SSS,CARL..EVEN WILLY 442....very knowleagable sheep experts...

Steven

I'm far from it. It was a learning curve regarding bighorn growths right away after my initial posts on this ram when I received e-mails within a day of it on bighorn growth rates between kootenay and spences rams from those who know and understand them.

[stoneguide]

Thanks Buff! Missed that somehow. Anyways here is my take on the lamb tip length question for what ever its worth. To me the ram in question is broomed back to his 1 year growth ring(first length of horn on most sheep to be broomed). Looking at the circumfrance of his tip and the younger rams in the video I would guess him to have broomed off roughly 3-4 inches. Giving roughly 3-4" first year growth. But hey im no expert and I dont see to many numbers floating around.
SG

[bigwhiteys]

I'm far from it. It was a learning curve regarding bighorn growths right away after my initial posts on this ram when I received e-mails within a day of it on bighorn growth rates between kootenay and spences rams from those who know and understand them.

If the experts thought this was so clean, cut and dry they would have been able to easily convince a judge and we would have reached a decision long ago. Not 3+ years later.

Carl

[GoatGuy]

If the experts thought this was so clean, cut and dry they would have been able to easily convince a judge and we would have reached a decision long ago. Not 3+ years later.

Carl

Not the way reality works. Law and what's 'easy' in terms of legalities are two entirely different issues.

It is pretty easy for experts; unfortunately there aren't that many experts out there who really have a lot of experience with bighorn sheep and aging. There are always a lot of self-proclaimed experts who have very little experience mind you.

As well, it would be naive to assume the final decision in this case will come out with a result that is consistent with the animals age and the hunting regulations.

[russm86]

Can't they age the Ram scientifically? I know that, obviously, the hunter has no way of judging or verifying this afield but wouldnt that atleast maybe give him or the COs the benefit of the doubt that maybe which ever knows what they are talking about? I know you have said they usually go off the incisor tooth or what ever but I'm pretty sure they have ways to age things either with other teeth or with the actual bone (from the skull) itself. I mean they can age human remains, bones, that have been buried 100s or 1000s of years. I think they could use the same mehtods which I believe is carbon dating. No?

[bigwhiteys]

unfortunately there aren't that many experts out there who really have a lot of experience with bighorn sheep and aging.

There are actually 3 experts involved with this trial and they all come to slightly different conclusions.

Carl

[GoatGuy]

Thanks Buff! Missed that somehow. Anyways here is my take on the lamb tip length question for what ever its worth. To me the ram in question is broomed back to his 1 year growth ring(first length of horn on most sheep to be broomed). Looking at the circumfrance of his tip and the younger rams in the video I would guess him to have broomed off roughly 3-4 inches. Giving roughly 3-4" first year growth. But hey im no expert and I dont see to many numbers floating around.
SG

The sheep in that area are the fastest growing in the province.

4" should be considered a minimum and that would be as a lamb (6 months).

As yearlings horns will be 12+" so about the size of a pop can if they're broomed off.

[GoatGuy]

There are actually 3 experts involved with this trial and they all come to slightly different conclusions.

Carl

And what does the bulk of their experience with bighorn sheep consist of? Inventory, studying, or aging sheep?

There is a significant difference between the three.

If you want somebody who has exerience aging sheep, it would be someone who has caught, collared/ear-tagged and monitored a couple hundred sheep and followed them through their entire life cycle.

[bigwhiteys]

The sheep in that area are the fastest growing in the province. 4" should be considered a minimum and that would be as a lamb (6 months). As yearlings horns will be 12+" so about the size of a pop can if they're broomed off.

The phenomenal growth in the area has also been brought up in court too.


And what does the bulk of their experience with bighorn sheep consist of? Inventory, studying, or aging sheep?

They are expert witnesses for the crown. They must have some sort of experience.

Carl

[GoatGuy]

The phenomenal growth in the area has also been brought up in court too.



They are expert witnesses for the crown. They must have some sort of experience.

Carl

The point where law and science diverge.

[bigwhiteys]

The point where law and science diverge.

I think the law needs evidence to consider the science.

Carl

[GoatGuy]

I think the law needs evidence to consider the science.

Carl

There's always a sense of entitlement to an uninformed and poorly held opinion.

It's the fundamental difference between someone who believes 'evidence' they like under the guise of science, and results that follow the scientific method.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

There are actually 3 experts involved with this trial and they all come to slightly different conclusions.

Carl

Even if the crown wins this case I wouldn't be surprized to see the age criteria regulation tossed out at Spences...which is a pity.

SSS

[Gilmore]

There are actually 3 experts involved with this trial and they all come to slightly different conclusions.


Three experts, who presumably have had access to the horns of this ram, held them in their hands and closely examined them can't agree on the age of this ram.

If that statement is true than that is yet another reason the aging of bighorns should be done away with in my opinion. If you can't do it with the horns in your hands it can't be done consistently on the hill.

[bigwhiteys]

Three experts, who presumably have had access to the horns of this ram, held them in their hands and closely examined them can't agree on the age of this ram. If that statement is true than that is yet another reason the aging of bighorns should be done away with in my opinion. If you can't do it with the horns in your hands it can't be done consistently on the hill.

I would not even attempt to determine legality by age on a bighorn in the field, it would be curl only. The energy and money required for a lengthy battle like this one wouldn't be fun for anybody. There are others in this thread who appear to know a little about the actual proceedings as well but it's not my place to post anymore of the details.

Carl

[stoneguide]

The sheep in that area are the fastest growing in the province.

4" should be considered a minimum and that would be as a lamb (6 months).

As yearlings horns will be 12+" so about the size of a pop can if they're broomed off.

Cool, would love to see some pics of yearlings with 12" horns.
They should have an even longer second year and third year(or at least most rams ive hunted do) so even if you just tripled that length that gives then roughly 36 inches at year 3. That is awesome. And should put them at full curl without brooming by age 4-5 at a minimum. So an 8 year old ram in the area should be an amazing trophy.
There is a 182" 8 year old bighorn hanging in my Dads house(killed in central alberta where im told on here is way slower growing than the area in question), its 38" broomed and 16"+ on the base. He is broomed at the first year mark roughly 2-3" back. So it would be a 47" ram at year 8 if it would have had a 12" first year. Them are some pretty outstanding numbers. I have 2 - 5 1/2 yr old rams that are 32" and 35" on my wall. Both have roughly 2" first year growth(very easily seen growth ring). Throw a 12" lamb tip(10" more than now) on them and they are now 42" and 45" respectivly if they dont broom at age 5.
So I guess what im saying is that if a sheep has such a remarkable first year then why arent they producing huge numbers on the other measurments and rewriting the record books? Its argued they are fast horn growing rams but the ram in question is 7 1/2 or 8 1/2yrs and is far from an impressive ram. Or am I missing something. Trying to figure them calling this ram 8 when he isnt much bigger than many rams harvested in Alberta in areas of slower growth at ages of 5 1/2 to 6 1/2yrs.

SG

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Teeth yes... but its like Annuli open to discussion

Carbon Dating no. Carbon dating works on Carbon Break down from radioactive Carbon13 to non-radioactive Carbon12 after death of an organism. Also you need to allow a releatively long time(hundreds of years+) for the carbon to break down from C(13) to C(12) to a measurable amount.

This case has been going on so long that we might be able to carbon date him by now!;)

[GoatGuy]

Cool, would love to see some pics of yearlings with 12" horns.
They should have an even longer second year and third year(or at least most rams ive hunted do) so even if you just tripled that length that gives then roughly 36 inches at year 3. That is awesome. And should put them at full curl without brooming by age 4-5 at a minimum. So an 8 year old ram in the area should be an amazing trophy.
There is a 182" 8 year old bighorn hanging in my Dads house(killed in central alberta where im told on here is way slower growing than the area in question), its 38" broomed and 16"+ on the base. He is broomed at the first year mark roughly 2-3" back. So it would be a 47" ram at year 8 if it would have had a 12" first year. Them are some pretty outstanding numbers. I have 2 - 5 1/2 yr old rams that are 32" and 35" on my wall. Both have roughly 2" first year growth(very easily seen growth ring). Throw a 12" lamb tip(10" more than now) on them and they are now 42" and 45" respectivly if they dont broom at age 5.
So I guess what im saying is that if a sheep has such a remarkable first year then why arent they producing huge numbers on the other measurments and rewriting the record books? Its argued they are fast horn growing rams but the ram in question is 7 or 8 and is far from an impressive ram. Or am I missing something.
SG

Seems to be where the confusion starts for many. When we talk about a ram that is at least 8 years of that means a ram that has had 8 birthdays +, not 7 years + 4 months growth.......... right?

Following are a couple rams from lamb to 2 year old. These sheep do not grow as fast as the rams in spences.

Ram Lamb (less than 1 year)

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/lamb_ram.JPG


A yearling ram is over 1 year old, meaning in its second year of life ie 15+ months by hunting season, NOT 2. Here is what a yearling ram looks like:

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/yearling_ram.JPG


Here is what a class I Ram (2 years old+), NOT 3 looks like:

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/class_I.JPG


What this means is for a ram to broom back 1 year you'll end up with tips the size of your wrists and 2 years the size of your bicep.

Once again, these rams are not as fast growing as the rams in Spences Bridge. Seems most people add 6 months as 1 year which is not accurate. A ram that is 8+ years old has had 8 birthdays, not 7+ a couple months.


Hopefully this helps.

[stoneguide]

Seems to be where the confusion starts for many. When we talk about a ram that is at least 8 years of that means a ram that has had 8 birthdays +, not 7 years + 4 months growth.......... right?

Following are a couple rams from lamb to 2 year old. These sheep do not grow as fast as the rams in spences.

Ram Lamb (less than 1 year)

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/lamb_ram.JPG


A yearling ram is over 1 year old, meaning in its second year of life ie 15+ months by hunting season, NOT 2. Here is what a yearling ram looks like:

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/yearling_ram.JPG


Here is what a class I Ram (2 years old+), NOT 3 looks like:

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/class_I.JPG


What this means is for a ram to broom back 1 year you'll end up with tips the size of your wrists and 2 years the size of your bicep.

Once again, these rams are not as fast growing as the rams in Spences Bridge. Seems most people add 6 months as 1 year which is not accurate. A ram that is 8+ years old has had 8 birthdays, not 7+ a couple months.


Hopefully this helps.


So goat tell me this what is their first year growth? Measured to the first annuli.

Another question for ya, which end of the horn do you personaly count age from?


And your right an 8 year old ram harvested in the fall has had 8 birthdays and is actually closer to 8.5 yrs old than 8. But has had 9 summers of growth on them.

[GoatGuy]

So goat tell me this what is their first year growth? Measured to the first annuli.

Another question for ya, which end of the horn do you personaly count age from?


And your right an 8 year old ram harvested in the fall has had 8 birthdays and is actually closer to 8.5 yrs old than 8.

Personally start at the bases.

No sense in asking the ignorant questions, the objective is to figure out how old the sheep in question is. Simplest to count the birthdays; makes things much easier to understand.

Hope the pictures help to illustrate age. If they don't make sense, or you disagree, please feel free.......

[stoneguide]

Personally start at the bases.

No sense in asking the ignorant questions, the objective is to figure out how old the sheep in question is. Simplest to count the birthdays; makes things much easier to understand.

Hope the pictures help to illustrate age. If they don't make sense, or you disagree, please feel free.......

Just trying to wrap my head around age ring locations. Like I said my dads ram is 8 1/2yrs old. Its way heavier than that ram broomed to a touch larger dia. and has about the same distance from being legal and only had 3" max(long for the area) to the first age ring. So if the case you are stating is that they are way longer on the yearly growth(witch should include every year not just the first) in that area then there is no way that ram is 8. So either he grew slow or someone is out to lunch on the age. You able to pick that up? Im not saying the the area doesnt have fast horn growth but if thats the case that ram should be alott longer at the age of 8!
And again not saying your wrong at all, just to get an age of 8 with that horn length he isnt a fast growing ram.
SG

[GoatGuy]

Just trying to wrap my head around age ring locations. Like I said my dads ram is 8 1/2yrs old. Its way heavier than that ram broomed to a touch larger dia. and has about the same distance from being legal and only had 3" max(long for the area) to the first age ring. So if the case you are stating is that they are way longer on the yearly growth(witch should include every year not just the first) in that area then there is no way that ram is 8. So either he grew slow or someone is out to lunch on the age. You able to pick that up? Im not saying the the area doesnt have fast horn growth but if thats the case that ram should be alott longer at the age of 8!
And again not saying your wrong at all, just to get an age of 8 with that horn length he isnt a fast growing ram.
SG

Agreed.

From the pics I've seen of that ram it is 7 + years old, not 8.

[6616]

The Spences Bridge herd does indeed have the reputation for having fast growth. I've seen some amazing rams over the years from that area and I've also seen some full curl rams that are said to be only 4 to 6 years old. However that doesn't mean that every the ram will enjoy the same growth rate, the area has the potential to have more than it's share of Booners but every ram isn't going to be a Booner. In any band some rams grow faster than the norm, some average, and some even slower than normal.

I've noticed the same thing with the Kicking Horse Canyon herd which has produced three Booners in the last 20 years out of a herd numbering between 25 to 50 animals. At the same time we had two Booners running around we also had a ram over 10 years old who was a runt and whose horns never did reach the legal length. There seems to be two or three genetic lines in the herd judging by horn architecture and the right ram has to breed the right ewe for another Booner to develop.

The Kicking Horse Canyon sheep may not have the genetics like spences Bridge, the growth rate is more than likely due to the winter feeding program and the fact that they winter so well, but I've indeed witnessed lambs in the spring (just under 1 year old) that had 7" horns, and yearlings that had 12" horns. As a matter of fact Goatguys picture captions are accurate from what I've witnessed and those pictures could easily have been taken in the Kicking Horse because the sheep there exhibit very similar horn growth rates.

I personally conducted the feeding program in the Kicking Horse for many years, and when you're dealing with that small number of animals and you see them every day, you soon get to recognize individuals. There are only 5 or 6 surviving lambs by fall when they reach the winter range (feeding area) and half of them are males usually, then you have a corresponding number of yearlings the following year, and 2 1/2 year olds the following year, etc. I've witnessed many individual and easily identifiable rams grow from lambs of the year to full curl adults and the growth rate of ram horns is generally about the same as GoatGuys pictures identify for average rams.

[Rockycruz]

I too believed that the rams in Spences Bridge have fast growing horns but this is not so. In a case a couple of years ago this question about fast growing horns at Spences was put to the biologist in Kamloops.

His answer was "I don't know how it compares to the Rocky Mountains where the bulk of the Rocky Mountain Sheep are. But I know for my region, I find it amazing that they can put on that much growth in that short of time. But that's only a very small proportion of the population. I would say that well less than five percent of the rams will do that."

So what this biologist is saying that less than one ram in twenty has fast growing horns!!! That being so then that is why we are not rewriting the record book and is the reason this case is so interesting for this ram is just another 7 or 8 year old and is not the recipient of fast growing horns.

[ishootbambi]

Most central to norther sheep be it BC bighorns, stones, yukon dalls or alberta bighorns are more around the 1 - 3" mark with the southern sheep getting a couple inches more on average of coarse with exceptions in certain areas.
SG

GOTCHA!!!!!! you finally admitted that southern sheep are on average bigger....all things equal of course.....lolololol.

that wasnt so hard was it? lolol.

hey WB....i have never seen you pitch that idea for sheep over in alberta....but i might agree with that. could be a good compromise, although it would still limit the upper age of rams.

[GoatGuy]

I too believed that the rams in Spences Bridge have fast growing horns but this is not so. In a case a couple of years ago this question about fast growing horns at Spences was put to the biologist in Kamloops.

His answer was "I don't know how it compares to the Rocky Mountains where the bulk of the Rocky Mountain Sheep are. But I know for my region, I find it amazing that they can put on that much growth in that short of time. But that's only a very small proportion of the population. I would say that well less than five percent of the rams will do that."

So what this biologist is saying that less than one ram in twenty has fast growing horns!!! That being so then that is why we are not rewriting the record book and is the reason this case is so interesting for this ram is just another 7 or 8 year old and is not the recipient of fast growing horns.

The CI data is the indicator.

The definition of full curl for the area (ie breaking the nose) versus full curl bighorns in the rest of the province (through the bottom of the eye) would be a secondary indicator.

Regardless, the rings in this case are pretty clear.

The bigger issue here is the lack of proper education on aging to support the regulations and/or the failure of hunting regulations as conservation measures and indirectly enforcement. In any case one of the outcomes of this will likely be the removal of the 8+ rule for spences due to a failure of education PRIOR to regulation implementation. Guess there's some learning to be done on the social side.

[stoneguide]

GOTCHA!!!!!! you finally admitted that southern sheep are on average bigger....all things equal of course.....lolololol.

that wasnt so hard was it? lolol.

hey WB....i have never seen you pitch that idea for sheep over in alberta....but i might agree with that. could be a good compromise, although it would still limit the upper age of rams.

Where did I state they are bigger? I said they may get a little more length on lamb tips but I far from stated anywhere that they grow larger in general. Do you want me to bring up the Alberta numbers as I did for you, Schwanky and a few others before. Yes the south produces good rams so does many other areas.
In Alberta you could say that central produces the biggest rams. A couple very small general tag zones just south of the Red Deer have produced more record book rams than the whole rest of the province combined(not counting late draw seasons).

[stoneguide]

I too believed that the rams in Spences Bridge have fast growing horns but this is not so. In a case a couple of years ago this question about fast growing horns at Spences was put to the biologist in Kamloops.

His answer was "I don't know how it compares to the Rocky Mountains where the bulk of the Rocky Mountain Sheep are. But I know for my region, I find it amazing that they can put on that much growth in that short of time. But that's only a very small proportion of the population. I would say that well less than five percent of the rams will do that."

So what this biologist is saying that less than one ram in twenty has fast growing horns!!! That being so then that is why we are not rewriting the record book and is the reason this case is so interesting for this ram is just another 7 or 8 year old and is not the recipient of fast growing horns.

Funny thing. That is almost all areas bighorn populations exist horn growth is exactly that. Some get average, some get rapid growth and some get the short end of the stick.
Rams in the area of question have to be at least 8 or full curl. That right there is half of what is helping produce big rams. Id love to see what most other prime bighorn areas could produce if this type of limit was put in affect. Not saying the curl length or age is the right method but if rams were left till these ages 8+ the majority of areas would be seeing the same type of situation.

[GoatGuy]

Funny thing. That is almost all areas bighorn populations exist horn growth is exactly that. Some get average, some get rapid growth and some get the short end of the stick.
Rams in the area of question have to be at least 8 or full curl. That right there is half of what is helping produce big rams. Id love to see what most other prime bighorn areas could produce if this type of limit was put in affect. Not saying the curl length or age is the right method but if rams were left till these ages 8+ the majority of areas would be seeing the same type of situation.

It's an entirely different regulation.

Full curl in spences breaks the nose just like thinhorns up north or 8+.

The rest of bighorns full curl is through the bottom of the eye.

While you can have 4-6 year olds break the nose in spences, in the EK typically they don't break the bottom of the eye until 6, then normally broom back and don't break below the eye again until 8+. Course there are variations between sheep populations within the EK, even by moving over to the next set of mountains.

You find horn growth and score entirely different across these areas, even from range to range. In the EK you have areas where rams will regularly break 180 and other spots where they will never break 180. There are a few spots where you have rams that will be over 8 and would score into the low 180s that don't make the full curl regulation (bottom of the eye) and others where the rams will break regularly as 6 year olds.

Then there's the Kakwa where you have lots and lots of old age rams that are lucky to break into the 170s...............................

There is also more than genetics. Years two and three can have a huge effect on score and legal as well.

[6616]

Funny thing. That is almost all areas bighorn populations exist horn growth is exactly that. Some get average, some get rapid growth and some get the short end of the stick.
Rams in the area of question have to be at least 8 or full curl. That right there is half of what is helping produce big rams. Id love to see what most other prime bighorn areas could produce if this type of limit was put in affect. Not saying the curl length or age is the right method but if rams were left till these ages 8+ the majority of areas would be seeing the same type of situation.

I don't believe the mature full curl regulation is by itself soley responsible for the big rams that have been shot at Spences Bridge over the years. Simply because most of the 190 to 200 class honkers that have been killed there were taken in the 60's, 70's and 80's before the current mature full curl regulation was in effect and the Spences Bridge sheep at that time were hunted under the same horn length regulation as all the rest of the Rocky Mountain Bighorns in BC, that is full curl or 8 years old (meaning to the bottom of the eye socket). At that time the Koots as well as the rest of the province still had the 8 year age option still in place, but it was removed in the Koots because there were too many short rams being shot on speculation.

[ishootbambi]

Where did I state they are bigger? .

it was in the quote that i posted. relax darcy, im just yankin your chains.

[stoneguide]

Years two and three can have a huge effect on score and legal as well.

That is for sure, the two most important years of a sheeps life.

[Walking Buffalo]

GOTCHA!!!!!! you finally admitted that southern sheep are on average bigger....all things equal of course.....lolololol.

that wasnt so hard was it? lolol.

hey WB....i have never seen you pitch that idea for sheep over in alberta....but i might agree with that. could be a good compromise, although it would still limit the upper age of rams.

And SG slipps away.... lol.

ISB, I've pushed the two tier (general full curl and any ram or other legal designation draw) season a few times. It seems to get brushed aside as most people see a complete draw or general season as the only option. system I want to see a two tier season happen in Alberta, but where the low mature ram component of a population is a proven concern, I feel this is MUCH better than going to a draw only.

Any hunting season will have an effect on the ram population age structure....:confused:

[stoneguide]

Didnt slip anywhere Buff! And can I ask how you would like to see the low mature ram component prooven? No matter what is documented, studied or said someone will counter it with another theory or study because the originals dont go along with what they feel or want.
SG

[ishootbambi]

sg, its clear when you said that southern sheep get a little more growth that you understand what we were saying. partly its genetics and partly its nutrition and weather giving them a little more growing time....but on average a sheep of a given age will be bigger from the south than the north. no one has ever said that big rams dont exist in the north, or that all sheep from the south are big......only that sheep in the south have the advantage when compared with sheep from the north of the same age. the post i quoted shows you know that, but its just a little miscommunication in making the point.

as for the low mature ram harvest....you have said the same thing yourself. we would all like to see more mature rams on the mountains. everyone seems to have a different opinion on what is the best way to make it happen, and no matter what changes, some are going to hate it.