problem finding 6 point bulls?? [Archive]

willyqbc

09-10-2006, 07:18 PM

So we were up in the Pink Mountain-ish area for the last week and the elk were really not doing much except the 1st 1/2 hour and the last 1/2 hour. Still, we managed to call in 4 nice bulls, all were 5 pointers. Two may have possibly matured into 6 pointers next year, but then again theymay not have, but two were definately BIG, THICK mature bulls. I'm just wondering if the 6 point restriction is creating a gene pool with more than a normal amount of 5 pointers? I suspect this may be like the tripalm restriction on moose creating a gene pool of 2 point brows on moose requiring them to add the ten point rule to allow the animals they want harvested to be taken. Have any of you noticed a marked increase in 5 point bulls over the last few years or were we simply unlucky?

any thoughts appreciated
Chris

mainland hunter

09-10-2006, 07:23 PM

i had a fellow in my shop who got a 6 pt but was saying the 5 pts looked alot larger and more mature. He was saying the same thing as you. might be something to it

Fisher-Dude

09-10-2006, 08:31 PM

Actually, the genetics of the elk in the north are different from those in the south part of the province. There are lots of elk with strange antler development in the north, and many don't seem to branch "normally" like their southern cousins. I shot a 6 point up the Muskwa that was super heavy (9 inch bases!) but had short points - his 5th points were only 1.5 and 2 inches long. I also remember seeing a 4 point with 18" eye guards. Another was missing his second eye guards. Lots of the folks I spoke with who have hunted the north have also seen many odd antlers on elk.

The purpose of the 6 point rule is for "recruitment" of younger bulls to become 6 points. The management strategy is different from the moose or deer strategies. Each species needs to be managed on its own population dynamics. With the way the elk population in the north continues to expand and provide hunting opportunities, I'd say the rule is working!

willyqbc

09-10-2006, 08:58 PM

interesting...the biggest bull we called in was a large heavy bull that had everything but was missing both 3rds.

Chris

3kills

09-10-2006, 09:19 PM

i had a fellow in my shop who got a 6 pt but was saying the 5 pts looked alot larger and more mature. He was saying the same thing as you. might be something to it

my buddy was up that way last year and he got a 6 point elk and he said it was fightin with a 5 point that was way bigger....

brotherjack

09-10-2006, 09:31 PM

I have always found that finding six point bulls is a terrible pain in the butt. If I didn't really really like eating elk, I would have long since gave up on hunting them under six point antler restrictions. It drives me up the wall to spend dozens of mornings a year in the bush (usually over 30 for me), honking elk calls which scare off any deer that I might have otherwise had a shot at, to most years never even see a single six point - much less get a shot at one.

Jelvis

09-10-2006, 10:15 PM

BrotherJack, nice to see your post-reply brother trying to help figure out why only five pointers and all are five points. You know another thing that might help in this mystery, of only ever spotting 5 points when you're counting the points, like 1 2 3 4 5 and thats all the points you can count, on all the bulls, no matter how big they appear and your so frustrated, your ready to bang your head against the nearest tree and thinking of never getting a shot at a legal bull in your life time. Try using at least one of the fingers on the other hand to count, too. Then you can reach six and finally get passed seeing only all those 5 points. Good Luck on your future hunts Jel

Gateholio

09-10-2006, 11:00 PM

On our recent trip, I had no problems finding 6 pt elk, just shooting them before they moved out of range while I kept counting the points!!:lol:

The largest bull I saw had large, thick antlers, was a 6 pt, but I was only able to tell that after pulling out the spotting scope at about 800-1000 metres, as his sixth point was a small stub, only a ocuple of inches long.

Still, he was pretty heavy, and I just wish I had at least managed to get a picture of him.:lol:

Checking the last fork at the top of the natler for that *sixth* point seems to work fairly well with typical racks, but not so good with the oddballs, and often not so good when you are 300 yards away ,a nd the 6th point is only a little one.

tmarschall

09-11-2006, 05:54 AM

Willy.... to get the full story... you will have to go outside the province. It is true as Fisher-Dude stated that the "purpose" of the restriction is to help recruitment of younger bulls to become 6-pointers. His assessment that the plan might be working... the question is to what degree is it working??? The rest of the story is that this management plan is poisoned by the desires of mostly foreigners with deep pockets to get 6-point animals. Anyone with a fourth grade education in genetics will know that if you are managing for "quality" animals of any species... you don't manage that population by killing off the breeding stock. The only elk you can harvest are the ones with the potential to increase the quality of the herd. It is too early to tell the full impact of the 6-point season on the quality of herd genetics. But the science will tell anyone it can't be good!!
As far as the population increasing, there are many factors that could cause this besides the 6-point restriction. Look around and see what others are doing and their results... then make your own conclusions..... Tom

brotherjack

09-11-2006, 08:59 AM

OK, something more constructive for Jelvis:

I agree, that shooting all the six points will lead to 5 points that never grow into six points - in heavily hunted areas. I recently ran across a winterkilled 5x5 that had antlers that would dwarf the six point I shot last year by a huge margin (as well as a lot of other 6 point's I've seen hanging on various walls). You can bet he was doing a lot of breeding until last winter - the area is pretty heavily hunted, and six point's don't last much past opening day over there, so come breeding time, he would have been the biggest bull there by a large margin.

By the same coin, there is an absolute monster mule deer that runs around a well known area for mulies around here (under a 4 point restriction). He's only a 3x3, but his antlers are past twice as wide as his ears, and the single rear tine that should have long since branched is probably pushing two feet in length and starting to plamate pretty heavily. He's been around there for years, as I've talked with other guys who hunt there, and they know exactly the deer I'm talking about when I mention him. You can bet, he breeds every doe in his area, as all the four-or-more points get killed ASAP every year - as the are in question gets tons of hunter traffic. Give that area some more years, and I bet there'll be lots of monster 3x3's running around over there that will likely not turn into 4 point's.

There, was that better?

bckev

09-11-2006, 09:07 AM

I hate the six point restriction. I agree that when you hunt your best breeding animals it is the smaller animals that do the breeding. As a farmer I wouldn't let my immatures do the breeding they don't produce quality off spring. I have seen far too many heavy antlered animals in areas with point restrictions. I would rather see them go to a limited entry season only. But then they would sell a lot less tags as people wouldn't buy a tag on the off chance they might find a legal animal.

tmarschall

09-11-2006, 10:09 AM

Kev... the biological answer that will promote recruitment and not get into the beaurocracy of LEH etc...... is to move the rifle season out of the main rut. That method has shown to be an effective tool for healthy population growth in many areas. Of course then the bankers, lawyers and real estate brokers from wherever would have to hunt a little harder. But the residents would have more game to hunt... who do you think will get the priority???

Elkhound

09-11-2006, 10:54 AM

Saw a real nice 6pt elk last night. Young 6pt.... but he was a beauty

talver

09-11-2006, 01:33 PM

Its funny that this thread came to be I have been saying this about moose in 7b. Ive hunted a area which one year had 11 bull moose which were pushing 50 inch spreads but none of then had 3 brow tines or 10 on one antler. My theory is that most of these bulls will never get 3 brow tines or 10 points on one antler and either dye of old age or poaching. But I have seen alot of these bulls with cows during the rut and you can bet your bottom dollr that they breed the cows up there. I was talking to a Co up there and he said that the bullls may never get the 3 on the brow or 10 points on one side but their offspring could have that gene. In my opinon get rid of the Aug season close it down during the rut and wave a couple of short any bull season post rut. Thats my cents

bckev

09-11-2006, 03:54 PM

tmarschall

09-11-2006, 05:36 PM

It would be curious to see an out of rut season. If you make it too difficult I think the off shoot would be an increase in poaching. Though I think increased poaching is already an issue due to difficulty getting animals and the cost of tags etc.

Kev... was really referring to the foreigners as far as making it harder for them. The local residents would know where the elk are and still be able to harvest for their freezers. IMO... the current increase in poaching is due to the 6-point restriction and fewer legal animals to harvest. The increase in poaching would decrease if they moved the rifle season out of the rut and lifted the 6-point restriction. There would be more animals in the near future and poaching should decrease due to availability of more legal animals.

Fisher-Dude

09-11-2006, 05:48 PM

I wish I could find the link I had that explained the rationale of the 6 point season and how it positively affects the overall elk population. Armchair population specialists and geneticists are high on "in my opinion" statements but are short on facts. The fact is that the harvest remains strong (Goat Guy feel free to chime in with your harvest data), and the population is the highest it has been in 10 years. Statements that "all the six points get shot off and the little bulls do the all the breeding" are blatantly incorrect. The vast, difficult terrain in BC and cunning ability of the animals prevent this.

One poster on this board is lamenting how difficult it is to find a 6 point, but when the game managers give him the opportunity to kill a cow elk in bow season and fill his freezer, his bow is too cheap to make a killing shot at 28 yards. Should the seasons or the hunter change?

Population dynamics are balanced with creating hunter opportunity when seasons and restrictions are determined. Moving the season out of the rut will further kill hunter numbers in this province. There are a lot of hunters like myself that hunt elk because we get to hear them bugle and can call them in...that's how I measure success on my hunt, NOT by the number of kills I make. I think many are losing sight of what hunting is all about.

Our current hunter numbers are only about half of what they were in the 80's. Your hunting resource is managed with the revenues from hunting. Reducing the number of hunters will directly affect the management of our game populations. We need to avoid this! We need hunter opportunity. We need recruitment of junior hunters. Look beyond your own desires and think about what is best to accomplish this.

Walksalot

09-11-2006, 06:02 PM

Put the six points on LEH and have a shorter general season on 3 point or less. With the 6 point or better you are cropping off the genetically superior, older mature bulls as they are the proof of the pudding.

willyqbc

09-11-2006, 06:17 PM

very interesting replies so far.

fisher-dude, I would be quite interested to read the report you speak of explaining the rationale for the 6 point season if you could manage to find it. I don't consider myself any sort of armchair population specialist, especially when it comes to elk, but I still have to think that shooting exclusively 6 point bulls will over time shift the percentage of 6 points in any given area or population. It stands to reason that if I kill a 6 point bull that is in its first season as a 6 point I am eliminating probably 4 or 5 years of breeding from that bull while in the same period of time the big 5 that I am forced to let walk will most likely breed those same 4 or 5 years. I would think the spirit of the regulation is to target the more mature animals, same as four point deer and tripalm moose. Not sure how the mature animals can be specifically harvested any other way but using antler restrictions. Perhaps the addition of some any bull LEH's to this season will help, but for me, as the VP of the United bowhunters Of B.C., I believe that I will begin campaigning for the addition of a lesser antler restriction for archers in this season.

Chris

Maxx

09-11-2006, 08:12 PM

I think that the 5 point season should be extended to the end of September, there are gentic 5 points that will never be 6. I saw a MONSTER 5 point near Tuchodi last year, that was a huge trophy, as well as many other 5 points. The elk are breeding like rats, I see no reason to extend this season,

For the amount of people that travel this distance for an elk, the "trophy" hunters can hold out for that "elusive" 6 point IMO,

bighornbob

09-11-2006, 08:50 PM

cwocarsten

09-11-2006, 11:17 PM

Sorry to hear your Pink Mtn hunt came up with only 5 pointer Elk. I have been going up there for 8 yrs now and got my 6X6 4 of those yrs. Last yr B4 I bagged my 5X6 I called in more than a doz different bulls that were 5X5's. Every 6X6 I have shot up there have been the pack from hell and each time I swear not to shoot them so far up and in again, but in 2 wks time I imagine that I will get stupid again wander too far up the hills and get me a 6X6. However there has been alot of hunting pressure up there. It would be nice to have an LEH for any bull so I can wack a massive 5X5. By the way there are a few 5X5's that have made the BC record book.

Maxx

09-12-2006, 06:31 AM

The point of the six point season is to give oppurtunity to hunt and still leave mature animals to bread (the few :???: 6's that survive and the big 5's)

The whole point of any antler restrictions to to let some mature animals breed. If a big old 5 point does all the breeding, good, a old mature bull is doinhg the breeding, not a spike. There is no evidence that a 5 points offspring will only be 5 points.

Somebody said all the 6 points are getting shot so we should open the 5 points. Wouldn't they just get shot too. While we are opening up 5 points lets give out 1200 calf tags and some more cow tags. Oh wait we are back in the 80's and record low elk numbers.:frown:

Saw about 10 six points after the season closed. People you are kidding yourself if you think all the 6's are being shot.

BHB

First of all awe are not talking about the Kootenay region, we are talking region 7 elk. There is area's where genetic 5 points will never be 6 points. Over time, as the pressure on the 6 points continues, this group of 5 points will rarely get shot. Extending the 5 point season to Sept 30 I doubt would drastically affect the population, you can already kill a 3 point until the 10th.

No one said that the 6 points are all shot out, there are lots of them BUT how many of them would live longer/breed more/get bigger if more 5 points were taken. Lots of 5 point elk are great Trophies IMO, I am sure that other agree- What is so great about shooting a "6 point" with a 2" last point?

Fisher-Dude

09-12-2006, 08:06 AM

First of all awe are not talking about the Kootenay region, we are talking region 7 elk. There is area's where genetic 5 points will never be 6 points. Over time, as the pressure on the 6 points continues, this group of 5 points will rarely get shot. Extending the 5 point season to Sept 30 I doubt would drastically affect the population, you can already kill a 3 point until the 10th.

No one said that the 6 points are all shot out, there are lots of them BUT how many of them would live longer/breed more/get bigger if more 5 points were taken. Lots of 5 point elk are great Trophies IMO, I am sure that other agree- What is so great about shooting a "6 point" with a 2" last point?

On the contrary, there would be a huge slaughter of 3, 4 and 5 points if the 3-point or better season were extended to Sept 30 from the 10th. The rut is barely happening by the 10th, but would be in full swing through to the 30th, and there would be a lot of elk shot, especially the younger bulls who tend to travel more looking for stray cows, and respond well to the bugle. That's the reason you guys are seeing so many 5 points coming in to your calls compared to 6 points. The herd bulls are well protected by the many ears, eyes and noses of their cows and calves. Also, the herd bulls are far less likely to come into an elk call...they will answer to see where you are, but most often they will push their cows away and leave the area. They don't want their harems near other bulls.

There are techniques to suck the big guys away from their cows, and I've figured a couple of them out over the past 30 years of hunting them. They don't always work, but that's why it's hunting. Do you ever wonder why the same guys seem to have success hunting elk over and over again?

Shop Lord

09-12-2006, 08:35 AM

I always thought the idea behind point restrictions was to allow the young bulls a chance to grow into mature animals. I live on the region 2-3 boundry, region 2 is any buck and 3 has a four point restriction for most of the season. I see alot more four points in the region 3 side.

rocksteady

09-12-2006, 08:49 AM

We, in the Kootenays, went through the same ordeal over 10 years ago with our elk..We used to be able to shoot a 3 or better, then they changed it to a 6 point rule.

There was a huge public outcry and controversy over it for a long time, but now there seems to be very little bitchin about it.. There are lots of six points out there and a lot are being harvested. The local biologist told me that if there is no large herd bull, a spike will breed the cows, and if his daddy was a 6 point, the genetics will still be passed on....

I think a lot of this strategy came from an elk management strategy that was produces and tried in Montana first, and since it worked quite well for them, the Kootenays adopted it..

Contact the biologist responsible for the strategy in that area, and I am sure he can provide the documentation (study) that the 6 point rule is based on...

tmarschall

09-12-2006, 10:52 AM

When I talked to the Montana biologist about point restrictions, he told me that they are useful for maybe a few years and thats it. In the long run he said it will harm the herd. Looking at the draft management plan for Montana a few years ago... I didn't see any point restrictions in place!! He did agree that removing the breeding stock from the population... over time... will do harm to the herd genetics.

Maxx

09-12-2006, 11:15 AM

On the contrary, there would be a huge slaughter of 3, 4 and 5 points if the 3-point or better season were extended to Sept 30 from the 10th. The rut is barely happening by the 10th, but would be in full swing through to the 30th, and there would be a lot of elk shot, especially the younger bulls who tend to travel more looking for stray cows, and respond well to the bugle. That's the reason you guys are seeing so many 5 points coming in to your calls compared to 6 points. The herd bulls are well protected by the many ears, eyes and noses of their cows and calves. Also, the herd bulls are far less likely to come into an elk call...they will answer to see where you are, but most often they will push their cows away and leave the area. They don't want their harems near other bulls.

There are techniques to suck the big guys away from their cows, and I've figured a couple of them out over the past 30 years of hunting them. They don't always work, but that's why it's hunting. Do you ever wonder why the same guys seem to have success hunting elk over and over again?

I did not say to open the 3 or better season to the end of September, I said that the 5 point season should be extended. Whether you like it or not, there are Genetic 5 points that will never become a 6 point. Currently the herd of elk in the Muskwa is at "capacity", hence the reason for the cow season. Are you telling me that the 5 points that could potentially be killed would affect the herd? I think not,

The northern herd is much different than the Kootenays, the terrrain and habitat are significantly different. My point stands, I would rather shoot a "trophy" 5 point, than a dink 6 point,

GoatGuy

09-12-2006, 02:04 PM

Do a search on google there are plenty of papers and thoughts on elk management through antler restrictions. There are also plans for the east koots and probably the peace. Go to www.gov.bc.ca and search for elk antler restrictions or something to that effect for provincial stuff. There are several different 'theories' as mentioned above.

As far as reg 4 goes hunters can probably expect BIG changes to the regs next year (maybe a short 3 pt season.) Everyone in that office is pretty tight lipped - probably depends on the winter this year.

Bio in region 7b will have an exscuse, errrrrrr I mean reason why it's 6 pt or better. Certainly doesn't mean it's a good reason; a few bio's don't agree with it mostly because there are sooooooooooo many elk not genetics. Also the majority of it has extremely limited access.

As far as genetics go it depends on the area. If memory serves me correctly some of those elk are transplants out of the East Koots - I think there are also some from Manitoba.

In my experience there seem to be a few 5 pts up there but there are also LOADS of 6 pts. I've seen 6 pts that you'd be lucky to squeeze 230" out of. I'm definitely not much of an elk hunter but in my experience there are more 6 pts bulls and elk than you can shake a stick at in that part of the province.

Flying around the trench you'll see more elk in one day than you will in the winter in the kootenay's. If you're running into lots of 5 pts my guess would be that you're hunting in a high pressure area. In that case I don't think it matters if you're hunting in 4,7a, 8 or 7b you'll have a tough time finding 6 pts.

Maxx

09-12-2006, 04:01 PM

Goat Guy- I agree with most of what you have said,

I heard a rumor that they might transplant some better genetic bulls into the 7B area, but some of the Bio's were against this, any truth?

Stone Sheep Steve

09-12-2006, 07:09 PM

GoatGuy

09-12-2006, 08:07 PM

Goat Guy- I agree with most of what you have said,

I heard a rumor that they might transplant some better genetic bulls into the 7B area, but some of the Bio's were against this, any truth?
Didn't know about it - I'm not in the loop that much up there as to what the ministry is doing (not a big fan of the regional if you couldn't already tell). BC Bucks would know about anything that's going on up there.

As mentioned by SSS there are some monster bulls in 7B (bigger than most if not all of the bulls that come out of GOS in 4) - you just need to know where they live.

Stone Sheep Steve

09-13-2006, 09:14 AM

Just got a couple of pics from a friend and two bulls they took in 7B in two different areas than the one that I was thinking about. 350" and 365"+. Apparently there are more good elk up there than most people think. Sorry, not allowed to post pics.

SSS

Maxx

09-13-2006, 09:35 AM

BCrams

09-13-2006, 09:40 AM

SSS and GG said it. There are huge bull elk in region 7-b in quite a few different areas......

The rumour of elk transplants to enhance genetics is just that ....... a rumour. There are plenty of 6 pt bulls to chase around.

Ltbullken

09-13-2006, 09:47 AM

i had a fellow in my shop who got a 6 pt but was saying the 5 pts looked alot larger and more mature. He was saying the same thing as you. might be something to it

Perhaps the 6 pointers are smaller because they are the breeding bulls who expend a tremendous amount of energy and hence loose weight keeping the harem together. The breeders do get extremely warn out and don't tend to eat when keeping the cows together, fending off challenges, etc. Any credence to this?

Plenty of 5 pointers were seen. Were they with cows? Was the rut on? Find the cows and find the 6 pointers. Comments? Any wildlife biologists out there willing to wade into this discussion?

mainland hunter

09-13-2006, 10:59 AM

he didnt really give me any details. im guessing they werent worn down yet, he just shot his bull on the 4th i believe.
i personally have seen some really nice 6 pts up there and not to far from heavily hunted areas. if, like others said, you know where to look. usually you just gotta get off the roads a bit.

Jelvis

09-13-2006, 12:35 PM

If you want Large Bull Elk try MU 4:8 Nelson South go east of Salmo River and/or Pend Oreille River for deer action at the same trip. I think it's all LEH tho (Check Hunt Regs) large Bulls 4:8 for bugling six'point elk. according to BC outdoors pocket book

GoatGuy

09-13-2006, 02:32 PM

Perhaps the 6 pointers are smaller because they are the breeding bulls who expend a tremendous amount of energy and hence loose weight keeping the harem together. The breeders do get extremely warn out and don't tend to eat when keeping the cows together, fending off challenges, etc. Any credence to this?

Plenty of 5 pointers were seen. Were they with cows? Was the rut on? Find the cows and find the 6 pointers. Comments? Any wildlife biologists out there willing to wade into this discussion?

They're small because they're young. As said a couple of times there are huge bulls in 7b.

Last time I checked BCBucks was a biologist, I'm not sure about now - he seems to hunt/hang out on the internet way too much for that.