Disgrace in sheep country! Part II

[mark]

So by now many of you have read the garbage thread.....fast forward to the same afternoon after we cleaned up the mess......the rain slowed, the fog lifted, so we went for a hike up the mountain directly above our camp....
While sitting, glassing, I heard what i initially thought were gunshots....very distant and from the direction I thought they came from I ruled it as rams headbutting????? We made a lap around the mountain, it was getting late now, the weather was getting really bad again, mega wind, fog, and rain, we were basically booking time back to camp, when buddy makes the motion to get down (ram spotted)
Only 75 yards away hunkered down in the rocks by himself!
I do the belly crawl over and we size him up quickly as being way short of legal, but he's facing away and not moving???? I say, lets get him to turn his head just for a better look....so we whistle, no movement, "hey ram" we yell.....(all the time I keep insisting that he looks dead) We begin to howl like wolves....still nothing....he's dead we both agreed, and we run up to him!
A 3/4 curl ram, just lying there dead, 2 hours I figured, still warm, in the pits and crotch, rigimortis almost fully set in.....W.T.F.???

What kind of triggerhappy, dumbass could shoot a lamb-tipped ram this short of legal Im wondering?????

(We had seen no sign of any other humans in the days we had been there, and its the kind of place where if someone else was in the area, you would certainly know about it!!!)

Then it hit me, this ram is 8 years old....the most clear, easy to count annuli Ive ever seen, as plain as day!!!
Then we discover a small hole, way back, and low down in the belly, a complete pass through, small exit as well!

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/sheep_trip_II_032_Small_.jpg

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/sheep_trip_II_039_Small_.jpg
Even from this front view, the annuli are easy to count!
(Note, this pic was taken the next day, it it was a brutal storm and nearly dark at the time of the find!)

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/sheep_trip_II_031_Small_.jpg
Now up to this point, I hadnt bothered to count annuli on any lamb-tipped rams this shy of legal....Me sheep rookie, yes, but I figured a ram of this horn size would be much younger??? (A little learning curve right here)
I believe the dead ram is the one in the center of this pic, there was actually 10 rams in this group, and I took this pic from 300 yards.....tried as I did, I couldnt make one of them legal......I certainly didnt think to count rings on this guy?????

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/8_rams_Small_.jpg

(Thats all for now, there is more to this story, I will post later, but its not good news)

[ThinAir]

Wow that is a pinner 8 year old... you are having one of the most bizarre hunts I have ever heard of! Eagerly awaiting the rest!

[wos]

And the plot thickens!

[OutWest]

This is absolutely bizarre. Awaiting the rest. Maybe both hunting parties come face to face!?

[Gateholio]

What a bizarre sheep hunt. :)

[Tenacious Billy]

And then?........

[Glenny]

What'd you do go out for a sammich? Suspense is getting to me...

[Ozone]

Gotta love the sheep hunters drama

[mark]

Wow that is a pinner 8 year old... you are having one of the most bizarre hunts I have ever heard of! Eagerly awaiting the rest!

As Ive told several people, it was the most bizzare sheep hunt Ive ever heard of by far, and you guys havent even heard the half of it! :shock:

[Weatherby Fan]

Did you break a wrist Mark ? get writing you ol bugger !

[srupp]

hmmm Mark..first photo of the dead ram..were those maggots on the rear leg??..Sheesh the word Bizzare is not too far off...unreal..

Srr

[lightmag]

we want more, can't wait.............muuuuusssst have MORE!!

[Ghillie]

Wow. I didn't think people would be so low to litter in the heart of the woods all secluded and serene. How could someone leave garbage in a place so beautiful? And then to take a ram that isn't legal and to just leave it there? I hope they reported themselves. The ethical thing to do.
What dirtbags.

[sfire436]

As Ive told several people, it was the most bizzare sheep hunt Ive ever heard of by far, and you guys havent even heard the half of it! :shock:

Just don't go all brokeback on us.

[Jelvis]

This is absolute craziness I hope your setting us up but hey, this is nutz.
Jelvis .. it's a small world out there folks, now don't get any nuttier.

[moose2]

Wow. I didn't think people would be so low to litter in the heart of the woods all secluded and serene. How could someone leave garbage in a place so beautiful? And then to take a ram that isn't legal and to just leave it there? I hope they reported themselves. The ethical thing to do.
What dirtbags.

The Ram is legal on age and I am guessing from the shot being so far back it got away on the hunter. I am sure mark will tell us that he meet the shooter. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. I guess were better to hear it from him than to go on hunches.
Mike

[KodiakHntr]

I just don't see how that ram makes 8 yrs on age. Looks can be very deceiving on sheep annuli. And that one doesn't even really look of age, however, it can be pretty tough to count from a pic.

The ram my partner killed this year, holding the horns in my hands, I'd have been willing to bet my left nut that he was 10yrs old....CI came in at 8. A few of another buddies rams, I'd of counted them all as 9yr olds based on full circle annuli, and they all aged at 7yrs old to 8yr olds. (But well over bridge.)

Annuli are a tough gig. And that one simply doesn't look like 8yrs old. No mass, no rings, no nothing. But, maybe in person he looks different.

However, whatever his age, a shitty deal he got shot and not recovered.

[mpotzold]

After reading Part 1 (the garbage thread) it reminded me of a poaching crew.
At 2 camps we frequented often one had the recent remains of 2 mule deer bucks lying on the ground with only the hindquarters gone & the other one had the remains of at least 2 eagles still smoldering in the campfire.(Hence Eagle Camp). At both camps garbage was strewn all over the place as though a bear worked through it but no bear signs anywhere. The only excrement found was human! As the season just opened the deer were shot illegally.
The ram probably suffered a slow painful death. Probably the same unguided crew that left all that garbage behind!
I hope they catch these low-lives & fully throw the book at them!

[Bighorn hunter]

IAnnuli are a tough gig. And that one simply doesn't look like 8yrs old. No mass, no rings, no nothing.


certainly no mass and very poor genetics, but the rings seem quite clear, I see 8 rings quite clearly

[BillBraskii]

If you can't make eight on that ram you shouldn't hunt sheep.
It's plain as day.


I just don't see how that ram makes 8 yrs on age. Looks can be very deceiving on sheep annuli. And that one doesn't even really look of age, however, it can be pretty tough to count from a pic.

The ram my partner killed this year, holding the horns in my hands, I'd have been willing to bet my left nut that he was 10yrs old....CI came in at 8. A few of another buddies rams, I'd of counted them all as 9yr olds based on full circle annuli, and they all aged at 7yrs old to 8yr olds. (But well over bridge.)

Annuli are a tough gig. And that one simply doesn't look like 8yrs old. No mass, no rings, no nothing. But, maybe in person he looks different.

However, whatever his age, a shitty deal he got shot and not recovered.

[KodiakHntr]

I hunt sheep more than the average guy, and look at a lot of rams, and what I'm saying is that there is a reason that the regs specify that guys shouldn't use annuli to assess age.

If that sheep passed a CI, I'd be surprised is all I'm saying. Having seen more than a few sets of sheep horns up close and personal, and knowing what gets counted during a CI, I'll be surprised. Sheep rings aren't the easy thing to count that everyone seems to figure, and a lot of people haven't seen what the Inspector counts.

*Hopefully* Mark packed him out, and took him in to the CI.

[Rackmastr]

Wow this is one heck of a weird story, and its CRAZY to see a ram that size go 8 years old.....yikes.

[bigwhiteys]

I just don't see how that ram makes 8 yrs on age. Looks can be very deceiving on sheep annuli. And that one doesn't even really look of age, however, it can be pretty tough to count from a pic.

If I was looking at that Ram through field optics, in a band of other rams, he wouldn't get much of a look over. He IS an 8 year old ram though... Looking forward to hearing the end of this Saga.

Carl

[Bchunter3006]

suspense is killing us...

[Bighorn hunter]

*Hopefully* Mark packed him out, and took him in to the CI.


No idea why mark would bother to pack this ram out? The only thing required if he did not run into the party that did the shooting would be to let the CO's know about it and it's location.

[pg83]

Very strange hunt you were on Mark. Hopefully the rest of your story is brighter than what you've told us so far.

[mark]

Ok so Im packing up for a quick elk overnighter right now, but I see you guys are chomping at the bit and jumping to conclusions here, (i dont want to get voted off of HBC) ,so Ill give ya a bit more!
You've seen the scene, we hade very little time to do anything.....I assumed, and hoped that maybe the shooter would resume the search at first light.....so I made the descision to split the cape along the back, from base of tail to base of horn, (as one would do for a full mount) I figured this could only help someone, by buying them some time to save the cape, and some meat. I didnt want to do anything that could possibly piss someone off!!!

I GPS'd the spot, and we hussled back to camp......upon arrival we noticed that HORSE tracks had ridden to our camp, someone had paid our camp a friendly visit, then left, exiting the valley????
I spent the entire next day trying to find the horse back hunters, I spent the better part of the day on the mountain near the sheep, but where I could see the trail up to our camp as well the guides spike camp far below us......
There was some new tarps hanging at the guides spike camp that wernt there the day before, but I never did see any sign of life there.
It appears they rode up, took a couple shots at the ram, figured they missed (which as a very experienced hunter, I can totally understand) the ram ran off, a mile or so and died of his wound!
We figure after seeing the resident camp ( us) he took his client somewhere else to hunt...Logical??
Id like to add that this incident has nothing to do with the garbage thread as the garbage may be a year old already......Also I wholeheartedly believe that this was an honest mistake that unfortunately happens sometimes, like I said it was a pencil size hole in and out through the belly, no bones for impact, no blood!
We wanted no part in removing the sheep, so there it lays, we never saw any trace of another human for the duration of the trip......I have spoke to a CO from the north region, told him the story, emailed the pics etc. He claims to have a very good relationship with the guides up there and trying to contact him about the situation!
I desperately hope that the client hasnt shot another ram, has gone home bummed out, then recieves a call that the ram he poked at has been located, and recovered!!!!

Oh and by the way, the ram IS legal by age, no iffs about this one!!!!!!

More bizzare pics and stories to come I assure you guys, but im out till tomorrow eve!

[bigwhiteys]

I desperately hope that the client hasnt shot another ram, has gone home bummed out, then recieves a call that the ram he poked at has been located, and
recovered!!!! Oh and by the way, the ram IS legal by age, no iffs about this one!!!!!!

It would be easy to lose a wounded ram in the rocks, very easy, especially if he rolled/ran out of your line of site even for just a few seconds. So your scenario seems quite likely.

Carl

[Sitkaspruce]

Not to start anything, but I thought the guides only shot mature, full curl rams and no dinks were ever shot:confused:....at least that is according to some of the righteous sheep hunter on here......:wink:

Now back to regular programming, weird story so far Mark.

Good luck on your elk hunt.

Cheers

SS

[srupp]

there's more??....

sheeesh

[Jelvis]

Did the CO believe your story? Or did he ask you what caliber you shot?
JP .. just thinking he or she might have doubts, yah never know eh?
You did say you caped it out so he or she could be scratching their heads lol.

[Fishhound]

I must say I can't wait to read the last chapter of this hunt, well done

[Salty]

I just figured out what I have to say about all this. I'll let you know in a couple days when I get back from speed skating. lol

[Orangethunder]

Wow, sounds like you were following a circus around up there.

[BCrams]

Hell of a story to follow!!

Kodiak - that ram is a legal 8 yr old ram plain as day!

[KodiakHntr]

Hell of a story to follow!!

Kodiak - that ram is a legal 8 yr old ram plain as day!

Oddball story alright.

But sorry boys, I can make him as 7.5, but not 8.5.....Regardless, to each their own, some may kill him as a legal 8, personally I wouldn't even think about killing that ram.

And judging by the pm's I got from more than a few sheephunters here, I'm not the only one. However, we really don't need to derail this thread away from its intent.

My only point is that sometimes CI's (who look at dozens of dead rams every year) don't necessarily count the same rings as what a hunter might, so BE CAREFUL counting rings and using them as legality determination.

[Gateholio]

Somebody needs to do the red arrow thing with counting the rings:)

[BCrams]

Wouldn't shoot the ram myself. This rams rings are so clear it isn't funny. Even Mark who is new to sheep hunting could count them.

Regarding CI's - I can't wait to find a CI who will count differently than myself on a ram I or partners shoot and I'll be the first to put the challenge on their status as a qualified CI. We've seen evidence many can't age sheep.

In fact - I'd love to track down questionable CI's for just that in the future and see what they come up with.

Your last point hammers the point home regarding aging to determine legality. I don't recommend it to anyone. You really need to fully understand and know growth rings and what you're looking at.

[KodiakHntr]

Anyone can draw all the little red arrows they like, but unless that ram had a plug in it from the CI it wouldn't mean jackshit to me, as that little aluminum plug is pretty much the only thing that counts.

And there's a pile of sheep hunters on this site here, that have had their own horns in their hands, counted the rings, and then had the CI tell them its a year or more younger than the shooter thought.

Again, BE CAREFUL using rings to establish legality if you are below the bridge of the nose.

But, to each their own. Its too bad that there are a few people here that are worried about being ridiculed, that have killed sheep, that don't make that ram as legal. And its really no skin off my ass whatsoever, I just think that folks need to be aware (especially guys new to sheep hunting, or who want to try it) that annuli aren't as cut and dried as some would have you think.

And as an example, two younger guys I met this year had a pretty nice ram with them, broomed, that looked to be 10+. The partner without a ram yet said that after seeing that one, and how easy it was to count, he had "no problem whatsoever shooting one based on age that was below the bridge now, as now he knew what a ring was"....Ran into them a few weeks later, and the broomed ram aged at 8. The other guy didn't say word one about anything. Heard later that here in FSJ there's been a few below the bridge 7 yr old rams brought in and seized........

But like I said, no skin off my ass, and I really don't care one way or the other, as that ram pictured isn't why I hunt sheep.

I just don't want someone to end up disappointed and fined after viewing a thread like this, and dumping a sub 3/4 curl because they saw a picture on the 'net.

I'm out.

[srupp]

I was one that requested help with this ram...as I got him at 7 1/2 years..I watched my stone ram as the biologist aged him...he disregarded everything before the first annuli..and started at 1 ....10" or 12 inches up the horn...??I dont pretend to know lots about annuli and when the subject comes up I always enjoy learning from Rams,Carl,Jim, it truly is an education...past results on guys getting it wrong by age have left me only shooting fulll curls..

But I did have a problem finding 8 "visible" annuli/// must be thes eold eyes...lol


steven

[bigwhiteys]

The CI process is going to get some changes soon I hope... A couple more days and there should be some good threads I reckon. Not a ram I would've considered shooting.

http://bchuntingblog.com/images/sruppram.jpg

[srupp]

Thanks for the white #s on the photo Carl... so...the front horn where its split..it also "bulges" thats his lamb-tips in the first year..making that first visibke annuli #2...on mine the biologist started counting 1 there...

dont question you guys knowlege just trying to increase mine thanks i do appreciate the expertise..and the diagram..it does help..

cheers

going back for a second year at grade 1

[moose2]

My ram from last year was broomed just below the nose I aged him at 9 and when the CI counted they called it 8 they said one of the rams they did with their training on had a 5" lamb tip and they would not give credit for missing lamb tip rings. I learned then if I shoot another one on age I need to feel confident on 9 just incase this happened again. This was on a mature 14.25 x 36" broomed ram. I would be concerned about the above ram ram myself. I clearly see 8 but would they.
Mike

[Mik]

Great thread, i too enjoy these educational threads on "aging by rings"........but these mini part series on stories drives me nutz

[Jagermeister]

If you can't make eight on that ram you shouldn't hunt sheep.
It's plain as day.Personally, I can't make 8 on it either, but then I have no experience. That being said, your statement, "If you can't make eight on that ram you shouldn't hunt sheep." is pretty callous toward Kodiakhntr.
Counting rings will always bring in the question of legality of the horn. Whereas, there is no doubt about legality when the horn is equal to or extends beyond the bridge of the nose.
It appears to me that Kodiakhntr and others want to make sure that there is no question and will only shoot if the animal only by determination by definition of legal as laid out in the synopsis.
From the synopsis:


Mountain Sheep

- Full Curl Thinhorn Ram

- means any male thinhorn mountain sheep
whose horn tip extends upwards beyond the
forehead-nose bridge when viewed squarely
from the side or which has attained the age of
8 years as evidenced by yearly horn growth
annuli as determined by the Regional Manager
or designate. Do not use yearly horn growth
annuli to determine the age of a ram in the
field, because "false" annuli may be present.

[burger]

Anyone can draw all the little red arrows they like, but unless that ram had a plug in it from the CI it wouldn't mean jackshit to me, as that little aluminum plug is pretty much the only thing that counts.

And there's a pile of sheep hunters on this site here, that have had their own horns in their hands, counted the rings, and then had the CI tell them its a year or more younger than the shooter thought.

Again, BE CAREFUL using rings to establish legality if you are below the bridge of the nose.

But, to each their own. Its too bad that there are a few people here that are worried about being ridiculed, that have killed sheep, that don't make that ram as legal. And its really no skin off my ass whatsoever, I just think that folks need to be aware (especially guys new to sheep hunting, or who want to try it) that annuli aren't as cut and dried as some would have you think.

And as an example, two younger guys I met this year had a pretty nice ram with them, broomed, that looked to be 10+. The partner without a ram yet said that after seeing that one, and how easy it was to count, he had "no problem whatsoever shooting one based on age that was below the bridge now, as now he knew what a ring was"....Ran into them a few weeks later, and the broomed ram aged at 8. The other guy didn't say word one about anything. Heard later that here in FSJ there's been a few below the bridge 7 yr old rams brought in and seized........

But like I said, no skin off my ass, and I really don't care one way or the other, as that ram pictured isn't why I hunt sheep.

I just don't want someone to end up disappointed and fined after viewing a thread like this, and dumping a sub 3/4 curl because they saw a picture on the 'net.

I'm out.

I would not always count on that. There was someone on here a few years ago that had his ram plugged but was later deemed too young. Even CI's make mistakes. I am not a sheep guy but I think i would for insurance sakes only shoot a full curl unless I was authorized to legally shoot something else.

[bigwhiteys]

I clearly see 8 but would they.

After a few grand in court costs they probably would and you'd get the ram back. But why bother with the hassle? If it's a dink and not full curl take some pictures, move on.


Thanks for the white #s on the photo Carl... so...the front horn where its split..it also "bulges" thats his lamb-tips in the first year..making that first visibke annuli #2...on mine the biologist started counting 1 there...

I just continue doing it the way I was taught by guys who guided more stones than anyone else I know. A few hundred rams and many years in sheep country between a couple old guides is a good pool of knowledge to tap into... Too bad Willy got banned because when he was civil he could sometimes be quite helpful in these regards.

False Annuli stick out like a sore thumb once you can establish a growth pattern, some rams the horns are so rough and rigid it's much tougher, then you have to look at other clues (like his rough and rigid horns for example) and then make your judgement based on the sum of your field observations. The difference between a 40" inch ram and a 36" ram is only 4" in overall length... Average that 4" out over their lifespan (1/2" difference a year on 8 year olds) and you'll see their annuli don't fall in radically different spots, it is fairly consistent among healthy rams in a given area.

Carl

[Jagermeister]

After a few grand in court costs they probably would and you'd get the ram back. But why bother with the hassle? If it's a dink and not full curl take some pictures, move on.



I just continue doing it the way I was taught by guys who guided more stones than anyone else I know. A few hundred rams and many years in sheep country between a couple old guides is a good pool of knowledge to tap into... Too bad Willy got banned because when he was civil he could sometimes be quite helpful in these regards.

False Annuli stick out like a sore thumb once you can establish a growth pattern, some rams the horns are so rough and rigid it's much tougher, then you have to look at other clues (like his rough and rigid horns for example) and then make your judgement based on the sum of your field observations. The difference between a 40" inch ram and a 36" ram is only 4" in overall length... Average that 4" out over their lifespan (1/2" difference a year on 8 year olds) and you'll see their annuli don't fall in radically different spots, it is fairly consistent among healthy rams in a given area.

CarlWilly442 got punted? Damm, I just took him off my ignore list.
Yes, this is quite the educational thread as all sheep threads seem to be. I think there are times when a novice sheephunter's zeal to prove his prowess to harvest an animal is overshadowed by sound judgement. Threads like this, (although it deviates a bit from the OP's story), should temper that zeal.

[bigwhiteys]

Willy442 got punted? Damm, I just took him off my ignore list.

Yep, he lambasted someone for shooting a dink ram... As he always does and the hammer swung down hard and fierce... lol...

I don't ignore anyone on here, because at some point everybody provides some value somewhere along the line., whether it's knowledge or entertainment value. This place would be boring if all we did was cheerlead and blow smoke and kisses up a hunters arse. If someone can't take a few negative posts on a hunting forum how in the heck are they dealing with real life!!!

Carl

[burger]

Yep, he lambasted someone for shooting a dink ram... As he always does and the hammer swung down hard and fierce... lol...

I don't ignore anyone on here, because at some point everybody provides some value somewhere along the line., whether it's knowledge or entertainment value. This place would be boring if all we did was cheerlead and blow smoke and kisses up a hunters arse. If someone can't take a few negative posts on a hunting forum how in the heck are they dealing with real life!!!


Carl

I bet dollars to doughnuts that for some on here this forum is real life for them!!

[cruiser]

Great info on aging. Not really a sheep hunter yet, but I have read a bunch of these horn aging threads in preparation. Based on that side view, I would have stopped at the year 7 annuli on that left horn and called the rest this years growth. Ah well, guess I'll stick to full curl as the deciding factor.
cheers

[bigwhiteys]

Based on that side view, I would have stopped at the year 7 annuli on that left horn and called the rest this years growth.

It's a safe decision for sure, but the growth pattern says different. Not too many rams would grow more than the year before after they reach 3 or 4 years of age. If you called from 7 down this years growth, you've given him more credit than he grew in his 6th year... It just doesn't make sense :-D

http://bchuntingblog.com/images/markram2.jpg

Here it is without the ram

http://bchuntingblog.com/images/gropattern.jpg

[greenhorn]

Yep, he lambasted someone for shooting a dink ram... As he always does and the hammer swung down hard and fierce... lol...

I don't ignore anyone on here, because at some point everybody provides some value somewhere along the line., whether it's knowledge or entertainment value. This place would be boring if all we did was cheerlead and blow smoke and kisses up a hunters arse. If someone can't take a few negative posts on a hunting forum how in the heck are they dealing with real life!!!

Carl

Don't want to get too off topic or start a side argument, but I think that most people are capable of dealing with negativity in life and negative posts on this site. The issue is probably more about incentive.

What incentive does someone have to make a positive contribution to this site, when they know they're going to garner negative feedback? Most people will do the cost/benefit analysis in their head and realize that they may as well just share their good news with the people who are truly happy for them and may not post here.

Not saying it's right or the mature thing to do, but over time people will probably avoid unnecessary criticism.

[Jagermeister]

Yep, he lambasted someone for shooting a dink ram... As he always does and the hammer swung down hard and fierce... lol...

I don't ignore anyone on here, because at some point everybody provides some value somewhere along the line., whether it's knowledge or entertainment value. This place would be boring if all we did was cheerlead and blow smoke and kisses up a hunters arse. If someone can't take a few negative posts on a hunting forum how in the heck are they dealing with real life!!!

Carl
I know that Willy442 always got a woodie when it came to sheep and especially if he considered them as dink. As for me, I just put him on my ignore list a while back for his usual diatribe on his pet subject. The man has a wealth of knowledge and experience, too bad he was so critical and not more helpful in educating others.
The negativity, cripes, for most, the better part of life is negative. The positive side is proportionally smaller. If everything was rosie, we would be doing what gives us pleasure all the time.

"I bet dollars to doughnuts that for some on here this forum is real life for them!! " Lately, that's how I have found it. Maybe I should go pack for my trip next week. Wait, I'm still packed from my false start. Okay, back to the forum crap, or perhaps I could go fishing.

[Glenny]

." Do not use yearly horn growth
annuli to determine the age of a ram in the
field, because "false" annuli may be present."

I'm no sheep hunter by any means but I think I would follow this advice/rule?

[srupp]

ok dumb question ..wont be my first..

Why isnt what is marked ( 2 ) , in fact the 1st VISIBLE ANNULI??That would make him 7 1/2??

steven

[BCrams]

ok dumb question ..wont be my first..

Why isnt what is marked ( 2 ) , in fact the 1st VISIBLE ANNULI??That would make him 7 1/2??

steven

The nub (sort of shows as a dark line beside the light spot about 1" down from tip or roughly midway between tip and where the crack starts) is the #1. Carl's got a great drawing and he can add it.

[ThinAir]

Man Carl, that is a damn good drawing!!
It's about as good of an example as a guys gonna get.

[silvertipp]

http://bchuntingblog.com/images/markram2.jpg

This is a great posting of ageing this sheep ,there is a good example of a false annuli right above the second year but if your looking at the groth pattern it just doent fit in ,all the distances between the rings are vary consecutive except for that false ring ,i find this to be a leagle 8 yr old ram ,and personaly if someone was to to shoot him i see know problem in it
i believe he is poor genetics and iy wouldnt hurt to remove them from any heard in
















































Here it is without the ram

http://bchuntingblog.com/images/gropattern.jpg[/QUOTE]

[RJ]

I agree with Carl, the first one inch nub is the first annuli. It could be a pissing contest if the CI makes it the first distinct annuli though.
Once you see the patten it makes sense.

[bigwhiteys]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/misc/quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by srupphttp://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=980916#post980916)


ok dumb question ..wont be my first..

Why isnt what
is marked ( 2 ) , in fact the 1st VISIBLE ANNULI??That would make him 7
1/2??

steven


The nub (sort of shows as a dark line beside the light spot about 1" down
from tip or roughly midway between tip and where the crack starts) is the #1.
Carl's got a great drawing and he can add it.


I didn't add other markings in the original because most guys just won't get a mature lamb tipped ram. He may have broomed it already... If they broom past the 3rd I'd say it's broken.

I revised them now.

Carl

[srupp]

Thanks Carl...I appreciate the education..

cheers
Steven

[BCrams]

I didn't add other markings in the original because most guys just won't get a mature lamb tipped ram. He may have broomed it already... If they broom past the 3rd I'd say it's broken.
Carl

Not to nit pick or anything but I disagree and think the majority will have it. Have a look at the Stone's sheep photo's in moose2's thread.....most of the mature rams are showing their nub on at least at least on 1 side and most meet full curl regulation with exception of a couple.

That said the ram we took last year does not have the 1 yr as it was broomed / busted to the 2 yr on one side and past it on the other.

Top notch drawing.

[bigwhiteys]

Not to nit pick or anything but I disagree and think the majority will have it. Have a look at the Stone's sheep photo's in moose2's thread.....most of the mature rams are showing their nub on at least at least on 1 side and most meet full curl regulation with exception of a couple.

I agree with you, instead of "most" I could have used a different word "some" would have been more applicable. At any rate, it's on the drawing now.

Carl

[Jagermeister]

Full curl for me or it's a pass. I'd rather walk away for anything less. It seems to me that the only time you can be certain about anuli is when the animal is on the ground and you're standing over it. By then it's too late to turn back a mistake. Better to be safe than sorry. I will agree with Willy442 on the aspect of harvesting a "dink". It's akin to shooting a 2 point mule deer as opposed to shooting a large beamed 4 point. When you're hunting sheep, it's not the meat that is the primary interest.

[325]

Full curl for me or it's a pass. I'd rather walk away for anything less. It seems to me that the only time you can be certain about anuli is when the animal is on the ground and you're standing over it. By then it's too late to turn back a mistake. Better to be safe than sorry. I will agree with Willy442 on the aspect of harvesting a "dink". It's akin to shooting a 2 point mule deer as opposed to shooting a large beamed 4 point. When you're hunting sheep, it's not the meat that is the primary interest.

Are you saying you would pass a broomed ram?

[RJ]

I thought the dinks were the immature full curl rams. At 8 years old wouldn't that be considered a mature sheep (although only a half curl)?

[silvertipp]

according to willy you are right

[Jagermeister]

"Are you saying you would pass a broomed ram?"
Yup, I do believe I would. In Dall sheep species, I would want a clean curl, both sides.

[srupp]

Jagermeister..in 2009 I studied 11 rams for hours..the best 3 rams were so different one was really wide, but didnt drop much I didnt like that look, there was the full curl deep dishing ram with his lambtips..which I shot...and one that was much more massive..bases..and carried much more weight out however he didnt quite go full curl..but his body and horns told me he was older..but I couldnt count his annuli as he was broomed off so badly...to me the broomed ram would have scored better??? but he didnt go full curl and he had broomed off so much horn length I was sure there were not going to be 8 countable annuli..so Indeed passed the broomed off ram in oder to be certain..shot the one that went full curl..

Great thred guys thanks again Carl..Greg..


Steven

[ElectricDyck]

False Annuli stick out like a sore thumb once you can establish a growth pattern

Carl

I follow these threads for fun and for a while was baffled how to tell the difference between false and true annuli but my epiffany came when you look at the annuli section size (as Carl stated) and how they are consistant and as mass gets larger length gets smaller.

Interesting hunt Mark, thanks for posting. That's pretty awesome you can dedicate 23 days to sheep hunting and still get away to chase elk.

[Rubberfist]

"Are you saying you would pass a broomed ram?"
Yup, I do believe I would. In Dall sheep species, I would want a clean curl, both sides.

I hope you aren't drawing a parallel between your dink comment above and the taking of broomed rams.

Many consider a heavily broomed ram to be a trophy unto it's own. In Dall camp this year, my father took a suitably ancient and battered old veteran, snapped and cracked on both sides. Another gentleman passed on a clean 40-ish ram, for a broomed ram with much heavier horn - that was what he was looking for. I took an unblemished twister, however I do want to take a heavy, broomed ram at some point.

[mark]

Although I am a rookie sheep hunter, first time for stones this year....I have spent the past several years educating myself on the horn aging process......If I had 10 dead rams under my belt it wouldnt change a thing....Ive seen hundreds of mounted rams, attended many of the wild sheep society conventions, talked first hand to many guides, bio's and other experts in the field.......not to mention followed all the horn aging educational threads on here!
Ive actually tied for first place at the WSS horn aging contest, and im now very confident at it!
Having said that, I had lots of dandy rams in my glass, falling just shy of the breach, that I just couldnt call 8 with enough confidence to shoot!
I did err on the side of caution, probably let some legal rams go, this dead ram was one of them, I saw, and photo'd him a couple times.

One of the key pieces of info Ive gathered, (and Im really shocked that no-one has mentioned it) is that a "STONE" ram, as a lamb, will NEVER grow lamb tips over 1 3/4". Now I realize that "NEVER" is a word that shouldnt be used when talking about nature, but of all the stone rams Ive ever seen (with lamb tips) this has proven to be 100% true....and I beg anyone to show us a picture otherwise!!!

So with that info in mind, there is always a ring, or a year, near the tip, whether its broomed off or not.....its clear as a bell on this ram, and I cant for the life of me understand how anyone who knows how to count, could get lass than 8?????

[325]

I've been extremely patient...now finish the story!!!

[Bchunter3006]

i've been extremely patient...now finish the story!!!

agreed!!!!

[ryanb]

I have to say that first off, this ram is pretty clearly 8 years old. He's not really as small as he looks, his horns curl WAYYY back before droping down, so if he had a tight curl near the base like most mature stones he wouldn't be so far from full curl. Haveing said that, I am very curious to know why anyone would shoot a ram like this. This is certainly not the spirit of the 8 year old rule...And I'm even more curious if it was an outfiter that "let" their client shoot this ram.

[mark]

I've been extremely patient...now finish the story!!!


agreed!!!!


Actually there isnt much more to tell, regarding "THIS" sheep.... We never did find the shooter, the ram is probably still rotting on the mountain side, I have given the details to a CO who is trying to contact the area outfitter, and he will keep me posted with any progress.
The presence of the dead ram seemed to have little effect on the other sheep in the immediate area????
A large part of this post was for educational purposes, as its an unusual set of horns!

[Salty]

Are you a teacher by chance?

[Glenny]

Ok so we went from
"More bizzare pics and stories to come I assure you guys, but im out till tomorrow eve!"
To
"Actually there isnt much more to tell, regarding "THIS" sheep."

"This" sheep. ? So is there more or am I just a sucker for following this thread?

[Jagermeister]

I hope you aren't drawing a parallel between your dink comment above and the taking of broomed rams.

Many consider a heavily broomed ram to be a trophy unto it's own. In Dall camp this year, my father took a suitably ancient and battered old veteran, snapped and cracked on both sides. Another gentleman passed on a clean 40-ish ram, for a broomed ram with much heavier horn - that was what he was looking for. I took an unblemished twister, however I do want to take a heavy, broomed ram at some point.A dink is a dink is a clean horn with no brooming, at least in my mind. A broomed animal is something else, but how do you age a broomed animal that has busted off enough annuli to not make an eight count? So, the not so short answer is no, I am not drawing a parallel. I'm not sure how you arrived at that idea. Doesn't matter.

[Jagermeister]

Hey Mark, thanks for the educational post. And thanks to the others like Kodiakhntr, Big Whiteys and others that posted good dialogue.
The actual age on the ram, if it is ever recovered, would be the icing on the cake. Without a CI, the question will always remain unanswered and subject to conjecture.

[blaker_99]

Mark,
This has been one heck of a thread. Tons of useful information from all different angles, and its not always about the score or horns. Sounds like you had an experience you wont ever forget.

[325]

Hey Mark, thanks for the educational post. And thanks to the others like Kodiakhntr, Big Whiteys and others that posted good dialogue.
The actual age on the ram, if it is ever recovered, would be the icing on the cake. Without a CI, the question will always remain unanswered and subject to conjecture.

Only to you and a few others. There is no doubt that the ram in question is 8.

[Bchunter3006]

I'm with Big Glenny... more bizarre stuff to come???

[mark]

Are you a teacher by chance?

Ha, Ha, no, but I figured we could all learn something from this ram!


Ok so we went from
"More bizzare pics and stories to come I assure you guys, but im out till tomorrow eve!"
To
"Actually there isnt much more to tell, regarding "THIS" sheep."

"This" sheep. ? So is there more or am I just a sucker for following this thread?

This thread is about done, but I do have more bizarre pics and stories, unrelated to this thread!


Hey Mark, thanks for the educational post. And thanks to the others like Kodiakhntr, Big Whiteys and others that posted good dialogue.
The actual age on the ram, if it is ever recovered, would be the icing on the cake. Without a CI, the question will always remain unanswered and subject to conjecture.

"In my mind" there is no question as to the sheeps age, the annuli are the clearest Ive ever seen by far!
I have a feeling these horns will be recovered, even if i have to pack em out myself next year! :)

[budismyhorse]

Hey Mark........any room for a situation where the shooter killed another ram and a pass through or missed shot wounded and eventually killed this sheep? They could have taken care of another sheep and packed out back to camp in no time.

The fact you never saw anyone else come out looking for this ram makes me think no one else knew he was wounded.........just a thought.

[coach]

Too funny, Kirby. Nice effort - but very pale in comparison to Carl's work on page 6! :-D

Great info in this thread! Thanks guys.

[SHAKER]

Too funny, Kirby. Nice effort - but very pale in comparison to Carl's work on page 6! :-D

Great info in this thread! Thanks guys.

LOL....... he did start at 1 though!

[mark]

Hey Mark........any room for a situation where the shooter killed another ram and a pass through or missed shot wounded and eventually killed this sheep? They could have taken care of another sheep and packed out back to camp in no time.

The fact you never saw anyone else come out looking for this ram makes me think no one else knew he was wounded.........just a thought.

I suppose thats a possibility, but given that I didnt ID even 1 ram as legal in 10 days of being there, would be pretty hard to imagine someone killing a legal ram, and wounding another legal one by accident???? And yes I did count rings on every ram that looked even close!
Not to mention that we never found any remains or guts of anything else in the area, and we hunted the area for several days after!
On top of that, the in hole was pencil size....if a bullet did a complete pass through another animal, I would think it would have expanded somewhat!
Hence, I dismiss your idea!

[bighornbob]

I suppose thats a possibility, but given that I didnt ID even 1 ram as legal in 10 days of being there, would be pretty hard to imagine someone killing a legal ram, and wounding another legal one by accident???? And yes I did count rings on every ram that looked even close!
Not to mention that we never found any remains or guts of anything else in the area, and we hunted the area for several days after!
On top of that, the in hole was pencil size....if a bullet did a complete pass through another animal, I would think it would have expanded somewhat!
Hence, I dismiss your idea!

As you said this was your second sheep hunt of the year. The ram could have been shot during the first week of hunting?? The bullet could have clipped something not vital enough to kill the ram in a week but later on from an infection or who knows what. I am not a doctor or vet in this case but who knows what the bullet hit or damaged. As you say there was no sign of anyone else in there it probably happened during the first week of hunting.

This reminds me of a story my uncle told me about an elk his buddy shot on opening morning. The shot was low and the bullet took one leg right off below the body cavity. The bull took and they never found it. The following week they are in the same basin and they spot a 3 legged elk still herding his cows. One shot and the elk drops. Once they started skinning the elk, they said the whole front shoulder was already pale green and smelled. Not sure how long the elk would have lived but he was still herding cows when he was finally killed.

BHB

[mark]

As you said this was your second sheep hunt of the year. The ram could have been shot during the first week of hunting?? The bullet could have clipped something not vital enough to kill the ram in a week but later on from an infection or who knows what. I am not a doctor or vet in this case but who knows what the bullet hit or damaged. As you say there was no sign of anyone else in there it probably happened during the first week of hunting.

This reminds me of a story my uncle told me about an elk his buddy shot on opening morning. The shot was low and the bullet took one leg right off below the body cavity. The bull took and they never found it. The following week they are in the same basin and they spot a 3 legged elk still herding his cows. One shot and the elk drops. Once they started skinning the elk, they said the whole front shoulder was already pale green and smelled. Not sure how long the elk would have lived but he was still herding cows when he was finally killed.

BHB

I guess you didnt read everything! Not only did I see and photo this very ram in fine health days prior.....I did hear the gunshots hours earlier, and did see fresh horse tracks that rode onto the same mtn, and into our camp, and then exited the area! Happened the same day!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I guess you didnt read everything! Not only did I see and photo this very ram in fine health days prior.....I did hear the gunshots hours earlier, and did see fresh horse tracks that rode onto the same mtn, and into our camp, and then exited the area! Happened the same day!

Please forgive BHB aas he turned 40 this yr. Eyes are going:mrgreen:......followed quickly by the mind. Believe me, I should know:icon_frow.

When's part III??

SSS

[Ruger4]

Please forgive BHB aas he turned 40 this yr. Eyes are going:mrgreen:......followed quickly by the mind. Believe me, I should know:icon_frow.

When's part III??

SSS

hey wasnt there just another SSS birthday ??? wink wink , still older than me big guy !! even if only a couple weeks !!

[SHAKER]

When's part III??

SSS


X's 2 I've been waiting patiantly for more!

[bighornbob]

followed quickly by the mind. Believe me, I should know:icon_frow.

SSS

Does that mean your neighbor has a tree through the middle of their house:):)

BHB

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Does that mean your neighbor has a tree through the middle of their house:):)

BHB

Glad to report "No!" All down but it reached within 10' of my Dad's truck which was pulling on it. I figured it would be 20' but the top ended up 10' from the main trunk.

SSS

[mark]

Part 3 is coming, includes lots of pics of live rams as well 1 dead one......but im goin elking for a couple days!!!

[835]

Mark you dirty sod!
Tellin us thers more but makin us wait!
Good luck on the elk, sure hope you have a different story to tell after this one.

[325]

Part 3 is coming, includes lots of pics of live rams as well 1 dead one......but im goin elking for a couple days!!!

Time for another BAN!!

[burger]

Time for another BAN!!
Agreed!!

Ban Him!!!

I need closure.

[Bighorn hunter]

Agreed!!

Ban Him!!!

I need closure.

Whoa whoa there guys, lets not be to quick on the ban wagon,,, lets wait at least till mark has finished these threads, then BAN HIM!

[Jelvis]

I want the truth and nuttin butt the twooth.
Jeldonaldduckqwack

[SHAKER]

I'm leaving Elk hunting in the morning and been check'n in to read the rest......... NOTHING! Come on lets have it already!