Road above the Spius Fish Hatchery- No Tresspassing?!?

[behemoth]

Took the family out for a swim in one of the great swimming holes up this road yesterday and all of the sudden there is a "No Tresspassing- private road" sign at the bottom of the road??

Does anyone know what is happening here?? I find it very hard to believe this is now a private road considering the road branches into Jack Swartz road. There was allot of talk about it at the canyon, people saying some rich guy bought all of the different parcels of land on the road and is now making up some BS story about "insurance issues". Apparently notice has been given that a gate is going up.

This is a recreational road that has been used by generations of families to access BC camping FSRecsites to fish, camp, hike, swim and hunt.

I am trying to figure out who to call to find out if this road can be legally closed. If anyone has any contact info, or some accurate information it would be appreciated.

[Steeleco]

That sounds bunk!! That road is and has been a FSR for years, I hunted there last Nov and got my Doe out of that area.

[Caribou_lou]

I'm thinking if it's no trespassing above a fish hatchery it most likely has something to do with where they get their water.

[Swamp mule]

Give me the Lat and long coordinates for start of this road and I will look it up to see who the primary tenure holder is.

[Steeleco]

Try 10 U 642379.23 E 5552411.19 That's sort of in the middle of that area. Maybe the OP can be more specific?

[bcfirefly]

Call the Min of Forests @ 250-378-8400. I used to work there and that road was public last time i was there. Things change though. However if the road is private but access public lands and historically has been its hard to legally gate it.

[behemoth]

Thanks I will call them

coordinates of the gate
500805.65N
1210143.97W

[Steeleco]

Any updates on the goings on in the area?

[Big Lew]

I agree with the comment regarding 'fight it now', especially if it has traditionally been an access road to other public lands.
My family had a small farm at the end of a maintained municipal road. There was a road easement from the end of the maintained
road that ran through our property. Many local people used this road allowance easement as a shortcut which saved them several kms.
When my Dad sold the property, the new owner immediately put up a massive gate 200 yds. from the end of the maintained road end.
Nobody challenged it, believing he probably had the right, I suppose, or that they couldn't make a difference and have it removed.
All it took was one person who wanted access to the back of his adjoining property and the offender had to remove all traces of the gate.

[shelg]

That is too bad. I would camp there when I was a kid. The fishing was incredible. Trout, dollies, steelhead, and salmon. The west side did have some private land but the east side was forestry campgrounds in the 80s.

[woodworm2]

Any updates on the goings on in the area?

I just noticed this. I live in the area. Always enjoyed reading on this site!

The north end of Jack Swartz has ALWAYS been on private property. The property was owed by various sawmill companies for decades eventually coming to be owned by Weyerhauser. They built the road across their property to access logging areas on that end of Jack Swartz RD. That too was decades ago. They never made any efforts (that I recall) to post the property or road so the public always assumed all those years that it was a forest service road in that area. Recently they sold the property to an individual. He has put up signs.....

I have talked to forestry about it. They can't purchase a road allowance because technically they have access from the south side. They can't "waste" money on something they already have...I have talked to the ministry of highways. It would have to be upgraded to their standards before they could accept ownership of it. That would be cost prohibitive for the owner. One of the Govt departments I talked to said that the owner proposed GIVING the section of road to Forestry in exchange for a small area of crown land adjacent to his property. Ministry of Forests said fine by them but Ministry of lands said no way. I was told that the only way it MIGHT happen is with political intervention... If you want more info I suggest you talk to the appropriate people in Ministry of Forests. There's one person as I recall in merritt and his boss in Kamloops.

Further up, going in from the north end of the road, it also crosses private property at that ranch too, in a couple areas.

[3kills]

the fact remains that the road will never be private cuz there is public land on the other side of it and there is acess to water which no one can own. u just cant go off the road. however the owner can attempt to put up a gate but it has to be done the right way he has to put a letter in all newspapers stating what he is doin and why and if there is any interest for use of the crown land or public land on the other side of his lil private section then he cant put a gate..all he can do is have the land one either side of the road way private cuz he owns it. this can get shut down fast and i m sure if it is happening it will be. i know a few guys on the access comittee here with the fish and game club i will talk to them at the next meeting and see what they know about this. woodworm2 do i know u?

[woodworm2]

I don't think we've met 3kills. I've lived here for 27 years...

[3kills]

i have lived here for 30 off and on grew up here

[bighornbob]

i have lived here for 30 off and on grew up here

You guys are probably related:):)

BHB

[woodworm2]

I hope you have more success than i did with this. The most helpful person I found was the roads guy at the Merritt Forestry office. I forget his name. Basically, the public have access through the south side. They are well aware of the situation and were expecting a bit of an outcry if gates ever go up. There wasn't much they thought they could do about it. Maybe the club can hold a bit of sway in the matter.

[behemoth]

woodworm, I got the same information from forestry, except they told me there was a new round of negotiations taking place that was looking good.

One thing that aggrivates the sitiuation is that the landowner is an extremely wealthy guy from the coast who moved to merritt when he retired. He is very arrogant and talks down to people, extremely rude obnooxious guy. Knowing that he's the guy that cut off access to the road will be too much for the locals

[woodworm2]

Hmm.. He's been OK when I've talked to him. Which isn't all that much, though..haha

Good to hear some more efforts are being made!

[SimilkameenSlayer]

One thing that aggrivates the sitiuation is that the landowner is an extremely wealthy guy from the coast who moved to merritt when he retired. He is very arrogant and talks down to people, extremely rude obnooxious guy. Knowing that he's the guy that cut off access to the road will be too much for the locals

is access on his land? is there a legal right of way?

usually there are two sides to a story, calling names on a well known "forum" may not be the best way to resolve the issue.

.002 cents

[3kills]

I hope you have more success than i did with this. The most helpful person I found was the roads guy at the Merritt Forestry office. I forget his name. Basically, the public have access through the south side. They are well aware of the situation and were expecting a bit of an outcry if gates ever go up. There wasn't much they thought they could do about it. Maybe the club can hold a bit of sway in the matter.

are u a fish and game member? I also have a contact at the forestry office in town and the lands office in kamloops so i will see what i can find out i am goin to look for some email address right now and see what i can find out.

[woodworm2]

are u a fish and game member? I also have a contact at the forestry office in town and the lands office in kamloops so i will see what i can find out i am goin to look for some email address right now and see what i can find out.

Yes, although I don't have time to be involved with it a lot.

Let's not forget that while there is the situation with the property in question, there are also at least 2 other (IIRC) properties a bit further up that don't have proper legal access across either. If anyone wants to pursue this, those landowners would also have to be dealt with. It really should be made a proper Forest Service Road where it crosses all of those properties. Most people know nothing about all of this.

I should add that it's been a few months since I got to the bottom of all this. Things may have changed since.

[Steeleco]

We hunted just south of the cattle guard last fall and we're rather successful for our LEH Doe tags. Not once did we see any signs of "private property" in the area. There's a good chance my son and his Unc Chappy will be in there this weekend. I'll let them know to be VERY observant!!

Thanks Guys

[3kills]

might see them in there on the weekend what they driving?

[3kills]

Yes, although I don't have time to be involved with it a lot.

Let's not forget that while there is the situation with the property in question, there are also at least 2 other (IIRC) properties a bit further up that don't have proper legal access across either. If anyone wants to pursue this, those landowners would also have to be dealt with. It really should be made a proper Forest Service Road where it crosses all of those properties. Most people know nothing about all of this.

I should add that it's been a few months since I got to the bottom of all this. Things may have changed since.

i have fired off an email to get the email address of some one i want to ask about this he will know the answers for sure i will keep u posted

[woodworm2]

i have fired off an email to get the email address of some one i want to ask about this he will know the answers for sure i will keep u posted
Thanks!

Steeleco there's not much for signs or enforcement for that matter... If you know where the road splits and goes into the little box canyon, There's a several hundred yard straight stretch north of that and a gravel pit. Stay south of the north end of the gravel pit and you'll be fine. Hope that makes sense.

[bosca]

Are you talking about the road to Little Box canyon? If so that is really going to piss off a lot of people.

[3kills]

if I remember correctly I remember seeing a no trespassing sign in there last time I was in there, I cant remember if it was last year or the year before but I just ignored it will be interesting what I can find out.

[woodworm2]

Are you talking about the road to Little Box canyon? If so that is really going to piss off a lot of people.

Yes. and Yes for sure. Most people never knew it wasn't crown land...

[Steeleco]

Darcy, they will be in a 4 door red GMC Canyon. Shane will remember you!!
Last Nov we came in to the area from the south along the road from Murray. Lots of nice pockets to hunt, didn't see any signs, but then again I wasn't looking!!!

[3kills]

k David. I might take a loook up there for my sisters doe on saturday. have a few other places to look too

[3kills]

k got an email address for one of the people that knows alot about this stuff and sent him an email if that doesnt get me anywhere I will look farther into it but i m sure I will get the answers I m lookin for from him.

[3kills]

got an email back today and this is the info I got. if I need anymore I can get more. This is from a guy that knows the ins and outs on private roads and access and stuff.


Darcy

I received your e-mail regarding the Jack Swartz area and I do have some info that might help you. In past years I have surveyed that road, the highways is in error in saying that this road has to be upgraded to their standards. The highways act states that, ( If public monies other than snow removal ,has been spent on that road, it is in fact a public road.) The Spius Creek gravel pit is right there and this road has definitely been graveled and graded many times by the highways before privatation and after, also our surveying costs were public funds There are case law that have determined that once a road is public it is always public, i.e. if a road has been established as public by use and public expenditures and has traditionally not been posted or locked, it is a public road. One could also pay to research the original crown grants and original survey notes, there is a good chance that the road is public by grants, as it provides access to lands beyond and the new owner can not block access to those lands

I was also talkin to a friend of mine today that knows that area quite well as he lives not far from there and he knows the knew owner and what he is like and he said he bout 100 some acres out there and he can be real "fun" to deal with and he doesnt see him winning his fight to get the road closed or whatever it is he is trying to do.

[Steeleco]

Thanks Darcy, the kid and his Unc are leaving in a few hours (Dad's working :() so hopefully they find deer and not the guy and his signs. I've warned them to be extra vigialnt about this area.

[Rubberfist]

If its an illegal closure, fight it now, if you give up the rights you'll have the same problem as whats going on at Douglas Lake ranch...

http://www.merrittnews.net/article/20110312/MERRITT0101/110319915/-1/MERRITT/outdoorsmen-protest-blocked-lake-access-with-fishing-derby

The Douglas Lake Ranch is owned by one of the Waltons a.k.a. Wal-Mart. The ranch is considered to be a real trophy propery amongst the ultra-rich. I've heard plenty of stories of the attitude there now and how they view residents and our claim to the lakes. Think about that the next time you spend your paycheck in their stores.

[woodworm2]

got an email back today and this is the info I got. if I need anymore I can get more. This is from a guy that knows the ins and outs on private roads and access and stuff.



I was also talkin to a friend of mine today that knows that area quite well as he lives not far from there and he knows the knew owner and what he is like and he said he bout 100 some acres out there and he can be real "fun" to deal with and he doesnt see him winning his fight to get the road closed or whatever it is he is trying to do.

Interesting. One thing I notice is that the Min. of Hwys Spius Creek Gravel Pit referred to is located on what is technically called Spius Creek Rd. That section is between the hatchery driveway and Sunshine Valley RD and is owned by Min of Hwys. Jack Swartz Rd. is further south. I wonder if your contact has confused Prospect Creek FSR with jack swartz???? Prospect IS owned by forestry..... and is surveyed and has been maintained.. It wouldn't be the first time gov't officials have been confused on the mess of roads here! haha

i have seen many of the survey maps of the area and been involved in some of them, but that's another story......I wonder if I know your contact? Jack Swartz where it is on the property in question didn't used to show on survey plans. I haven't looked to see if it's changed lately though.

It's good that it sounds like it would be hard to close, IF that's even what the guy wants to do.

Thanks 3 kills.

[woodworm2]

Another thing as I mentioned earlier, the road was built AFTER it became private land by the owner of the land. Hence there would be no exceptions to be found on original land grants as the road didn't exist then.

[3kills]

i think the point of the land grants is that if there was public land there has to be public access to the land and ministry is allowed to take a 60 ft right away through if they want to.

[3kills]

The Douglas Lake Ranch is owned by one of the Waltons a.k.a. Wal-Mart. The ranch is considered to be a real trophy propery amongst the ultra-rich. I've heard plenty of stories of the attitude there now and how they view residents and our claim to the lakes. Think about that the next time you spend your paycheck in their stores.

yup its sam waltons grand daughter i believe

[3kills]

Thanks Darcy, the kid and his Unc are leaving in a few hours (Dad's working :() so hopefully they find deer and not the guy and his signs. I've warned them to be extra vigialnt about this area.

how they make out?

[Steeleco]

They didn't!! Saw one guy with a nice buck up Jack Swartz and then found a bear, dead long enough to be frozen through but missing it's front feet only. The kids not happy one bit, Unc neither. Took a waypoint and called it in on the drive home.

Bar stards that do this should be treated in kind.

We'll be in that area next weekend, 3 doe tags to cut "somehow"!!

[3kills]

David pm coming!