View Full Version : NEW PROVINCIAL RECORD BLACKTAIL..opinions?
proguide66
08-23-2011, 02:38 PM
Lets 'just say' there was a blacktail buck living its life on the blacktail side of 'the line' from late spring till early fall.( the Boone and Crocket line that is!..the 'line' that decides wether its a blacktail deer or a mule deer).
Now...lets say this buck has around 165" + net of antler on its head and he doesnt get shot before the snow and his 'p-p' drive him to chase chicks and as well nestle in his 'winter benches' wich are maybe 800 yrds on the mule deer side of 'The Line'.
Uh OH....'someone' gets lucky and shoots him and its 'just' on the mule deer side of 'The Line'.( meanwhile mule deer physical traits do not show up for 30 miles as the crow flies).
In order for the 'scorer' for the B.C. records book to score it as a 'blacktail' ( and new #1 trophy blacktail antlers for the B.C. book )he needs to be shown where its harvested.Now after months of observing this 'blacktail' on the 'Btail side of 'The Line' as well noting its absolute 'blacktial colored tail , double white throat patch , body weighing around 200lbs..small ears ect ect.....what are YOU going to say??:neutral:
Welll Im going to say "F#$K YEA!" when i drop it first of all then find out they call it a Mulie when i try to score it under your situation and then im going to hang it on my wall and whenever anyone comes over i'll tell them the story.
Id give my left nut ( Almost) to have that problem, only to not give a damn about what B&C Say.
Steeleco
08-23-2011, 02:59 PM
I have a friend that took a book BT years ago, he's hunted that fringe area for years. The deer he took is BT all the way, not #1 in the book but very highly placed had they not counted it as mulie because he was on the wrong side of some arbitrary line. In the end he said screw it and just admires it on his wall.
madrona sh
08-23-2011, 03:12 PM
I say Yeaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh
Islandeer
08-23-2011, 03:13 PM
Fu.. the bean counters,drop it and hang it in your cave!!
lovemywinchester
08-23-2011, 03:25 PM
Sounds like some one knows where the big boy lives! What are you driving these days? So we don`t get in your way when you are hunting. On a serious note, can't you get a dna test to say its all blacktail? For a record it would be worth the cost.
proguide66
08-23-2011, 04:51 PM
Sounds like some one knows where the big boy lives! What are you driving these days? So we don`t get in your way when you are hunting. On a serious note, can't you get a dna test to say its all blacktail? For a record it would be worth the cost.
hmm..well , I have a stack of b tail antlers that make the book and have never entered any..as well a few mounts. BUT...it is an iteresting question 'if' it were to happen.
if DNA were to come into place a PILE..and I mean MANY blacktails in 'The Book' would be disqualified.
There are numerous b tails entered from Pemberton in 'The Book' and remain listed as blacktails even though biologists did the 'DNA thing' only to have Pemby deer proven to have mule deer blood. Pemberton Doe's have also been tracked to Goldbrige and back to the Mackenzie Basin during migration times.
I am familiar with and use the scors to descrribe a size o a rack..but am not a fan of entering my shit in books....BUT , dropping the new #1 blacktail would HAVE to be listed as many many blacktail enthusiasts would be appreciative for sure!..maybe it'll happen in a month..:razz:
As far as what I drive goes , dont lower yourself to the 'truck chasers' level of laziness and hunt trucks as opposed to gaining hunting knowlege...yer doing great now!;-)
StoneChaser
08-23-2011, 04:52 PM
I'd kill him, grill him, and admire the mount on my wall (Blacktail all the way BTW)....B+C and the rest of the "awards clubs" could pound sand.
Good Luck!
ruger#1
08-23-2011, 05:02 PM
You would have to beat 167 1/8. I used to hunt with the guy that has this one. He is Number 1 in the B.C books.
Amphibious
08-23-2011, 05:04 PM
I'd kill him, grill him, and admire the mount on my wall (Blacktail all the way BTW)....B+C and the rest of the "awards clubs" could pound sand.
Good Luck!
+1
the hype surrounding the B&C&P&Y gold medal grand slam world record Hawg Toad booner non-typical circle jerk gets old.
mikey
08-23-2011, 05:24 PM
sounds like we might be in for another interesting blacktail thread this year..."if" someone were know where a buck like this hung out in the fall....
Jelvis
08-23-2011, 06:41 PM
If it's 200 pounds like your saying, it's not a black tail.
Shit Jel what happened?
That is the single most normal post i have ever read by you.
RayHill
08-23-2011, 08:06 PM
I have shot lots of blacktail that are close to 200 lbs not to hard to find
Jelvis
08-23-2011, 08:08 PM
Lots of blacktails @ 200 pounds? C'mon man git reel lol.
Gateholio
08-23-2011, 08:29 PM
Jelvis, what is the top weight for a mature blacktail buck?
RayHill
08-23-2011, 08:36 PM
I guess my scale has been broken for the last 10 or so years. The one in my pic is the biggest BT that I have shot and it weighed in at a tad over 210lbs. I do have a pic with him hanging on the scale a nice 4X3
RayHill
08-23-2011, 08:41 PM
O how I love Google search !!!!
Females ( does ) weigh from 30 to 66 Kg (70 to 140 lbs). Males ( bucks ) range in weight from 57 to 120 Kg (120-250 lbs). Weight of individuals varies depending on the availability of food. Larger animals generally live in in areas with more food, or less competition for food. Large males may measure up to 90 cm (36 inches) at shoulder.
Ozone
08-23-2011, 08:42 PM
Were is this "line"? Is there a map somewere I could look at?
Jelvis
08-23-2011, 08:42 PM
Top weight alive, field dressed, hog dressed or carcass with no legs, head or skin on?
If your talking about record size as an exception could reach 200 but only the extreme buck with genetics and excellent feed and where it was from, or a hybrid of mule and black.
Most blacktails are the size of a good rottwyler or german sheperd.
Mature blacktail bucks stand 3 feet at the shoulder and weigh 125 t0 135 pounds.
The heaviest ever blacktail weighed 212 pounds.
Jel .. Guessing weight won't be accurate you must use a proper butcher scale.
Also google would put mule deer as a blacktail or blacktail as mule. They wouldn't differentiate.
proguide66
08-23-2011, 08:45 PM
Lots of blacktails @ 200 pounds? C'mon man git reel lol. Stick to those EASY mulies you know about!!:razz: most prime 5 yr old blacktail bucks on the west coast of mainland bc are 200 plus( at times) on the footies!..just as most prime mulies are 300 !
Jelvis
08-23-2011, 08:48 PM
I've shot lots of blacktails up Chilliwack valley so I know how heavy they are.
How many blacktails did you weigh? lol.
Gateholio
08-23-2011, 08:48 PM
Top weight alive, field dressed, hog dressed or carcass with no legs, head or skin on?
If your talking about record size as an exception could reach 200 but only the extreme buck with genetics and excellent feed and where it was from, or a hybrid of mule and black.
Most blacktails are the size of a good rottwyler or german sheperd.
Mature blacktail bucks stand 3 feet at the shoulder and weigh 125 t0 135 pounds.
The heaviest ever blacktail weighed 212 pounds.
Jel .. Guessing weight won't be accurate you must use a proper butcher scale.
Also google would put mule deer as a blacktail or blacktail as mule. They wouldn't differentiate.
How heavy were the blacktail bucks that you have personally weighed?
proguide66
08-23-2011, 08:53 PM
Top weight alive, field dressed, hog dressed or carcass with no legs, head or skin on?
If your talking about record size as an exception could reach 200 but only the extreme buck with genetics and excellent feed and where it was from, or a hybrid of mule and black.
Most blacktails are the size of a good rottwyler or german sheperd.
Mature blacktail bucks stand 3 feet at the shoulder and weigh 125 t0 135 pounds.
The heaviest ever blacktail weighed 212 pounds.
Jel .. Guessing weight won't be accurate you must use a proper butcher scale.
Also google would put mule deer as a blacktail or blacktail as mule. They wouldn't differentiate.
If you wish to se multiple 200lbr's go back and run through he 'huge bodied blacktail' thread.;-)
proguide66
08-23-2011, 08:55 PM
:smile:
I've shot lots of blacktails up Chilliwack valley so I know how heavy they are.
How many blacktails did you weigh? lol.
This post means nothing without pics!
RayHill
08-23-2011, 08:56 PM
Top weight alive, field dressed, hog dressed or carcass with no legs, head or skin on?
If your talking about record size as an exception could reach 200 but only the extreme buck with genetics and excellent feed and where it was from, or a hybrid of mule and black.
Most blacktails are the size of a good rottwyler or german sheperd.
Mature blacktail bucks stand 3 feet at the shoulder and weigh 125 t0 135 pounds.
The heaviest ever blacktail weighed 212 pounds.
Jel .. Guessing weight won't be accurate you must use a proper butcher scale.
Also google would put mule deer as a blacktail or blacktail as mule. They wouldn't differentiate.
Well I guess that would make me the new "heaviest ever blacktail" now because mine weighed over 212 lbs with the guts out and hide off on a butcher's scale. And I have the pic to prove it!
Jelvis
08-23-2011, 09:02 PM
A lot lighter than the mule deer I got lol. Honestly I got big four point blacktail, three points and fork horns. I weighed a few. 140 for the huge buck and the rest way under.
If a person wants to believe blacktails are commonly seen at 200 pounds, hey that's not a problem, but it's definitely an exception where I've hunted blacktail.
I hunted Harrison Lake, Chilliwack Mountain, Chilliwack Valley, Thurston Mt, Chipmunck Run, Pierce Creek, Sumas Mt, Vedder Mt, Elk Mt, Tamihi Creek, Slesse, and have never seen the elusive 200 pounder yet.
Maybe Pemberton with a hybrid or Pitt Lake area could reach 180 or so for a mature big four blackie.
I hunted blacktails in the 70's and 80's might be different now, I been hunting mules.
Jel .. Sizes of deer are mule deer biggest, whitetail next then coastal blacktail then Sitka blacks. imho I've been wrong b4 lol.
Hey Ray put that picture on for us please. I'd love to see that cranker.
RayHill
08-23-2011, 09:03 PM
This guy weighs more then 200lbs
http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff364/raysmailbank/DSCN0627.jpg
Gateholio
08-23-2011, 09:06 PM
Jelvis, was the 140lb buck whole when you weighed it or had it been gutted?
Lets 'just say' there was a blacktail buck living its life on the blacktail side of 'the line' from late spring till early fall.( the Boone and Crocket line that is!..the 'line' that decides wether its a blacktail deer or a mule deer).
Now...lets say this buck has around 165" + net of antler on its head and he doesnt get shot before the snow and his 'p-p' drive him to chase chicks and as well nestle in his 'winter benches' wich are maybe 800 yrds on the mule deer side of 'The Line'.
Uh OH....'someone' gets lucky and shoots him and its 'just' on the mule deer side of 'The Line'.( meanwhile mule deer physical traits do not show up for 30 miles as the crow flies).
In order for the 'scorer' for the B.C. records book to score it as a 'blacktail' ( and new #1 trophy blacktail antlers for the B.C. book )he needs to be shown where its harvested.Now after months of observing this 'blacktail' on the 'Btail side of 'The Line' as well noting its absolute 'blacktial colored tail , double white throat patch , body weighing around 200lbs..small ears ect ect.....what are YOU going to say??:neutral:
Id say its a mulie....give him a pass, and look for a bigger one! ....yawn...
BlacktailStalker
08-23-2011, 09:20 PM
Either way the critics will be jealous.
Kill him.
Jelvis
08-23-2011, 09:20 PM
That one 140 was a guess, I got it at the far end of Chilliwack lake @ Depot creek up Cattermoles a big four point.
I think it was a mix because it was between Chilliwack Lake and the the Skagit valley.
The antlers were mule looking and were quite large, that was in around 1980.
I compare with my mule deer experience on size, I've weighed a few but holding the meat in a container on a bathroom scale, and have had butchers tell me weights of the deer they cut up for me. I do my own deer now anyways and have deboned large mule deer bucks, one I got in real good shape early season went 100 pounds of meat off of.
Jel . Hey like some are saying they have actually seen these big blacktails so they must be out there where they go. Good luck getting that bad boy.
rides bike to work
08-23-2011, 09:22 PM
This year im holding out for a record black tail in the wack area ,a personal record its got to have at least 2 points this year
hillclimber
08-23-2011, 09:24 PM
wheres the trailcam pictures for us to drool over proguide?
Gateholio
08-23-2011, 09:32 PM
That one 140 was a guess, I got it at the far end of Chilliwack lake @ Depot creek up Cattermoles a big four point.
.
I can only guess at weight, too, since most of the big body blacktails I've shot have come out in a backpack. No idea what they weighed on the hoof. Still, I don't have a tough time believing some will top 200 lbs
todbartell
08-23-2011, 09:37 PM
this one was 199 lbs
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o205/todbartell/09%20blacktail/DSCF1901.jpg
todbartell
08-23-2011, 09:39 PM
I'm not sure how much Proguide66 weighs but he looks pretty shrimpy
maybe it was 199.5
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o205/todbartell/09%20blacktail/DSC02273.jpg
First....I'd agree with StoneChaser...all i wanted out of my hunting career was to shoot a moose over 60"....I shot one that was 62 1/4 but shrunk to 59 7/8" and some "folks" won't let me forget that I still hadn't reached my goal!!! Book or no book, the buck you are describing sounds like a hog! Shoot 'em and post some pics for all of us to drool over and dream of shooting something even close....speaking of posting pics....has anyone ever seen a single picture of any of the kills that Jelvis claims to have taken??
Good luck PG66....keep bangin' till the meats a hangin'!!
dmace
08-23-2011, 09:50 PM
Coming from the Island I think only blacktails should be counted from here !! Jealous as hell of you guy's on the mainland ! :)
savage30-06
08-23-2011, 09:50 PM
just like a calf moose cant be over 200 pounds.Jelvis where do you come up with this stuff?Do you even have any pictures o f all these blacktails you shot?
Jelvis
08-23-2011, 10:00 PM
No unfortunately no photo's of my blacktails, I gave them away to the friends.
I don't want to be a jerk and say anything offensive, you see the huge bucks by the Pro guide and the bartell and hey they are huge looking bucks.
I'll just fade out and say good luck to all blacktail hunters this 2011 season.
Jel .. I weigh 190 lol. Remember to weigh your deer this year on some scale ..
RayHill
08-23-2011, 10:09 PM
Coming from the Island I think only blacktails should be counted from here !! Jealous as hell of you guy's on the mainland ! :)
(Post #28 pic) is a VI deer. Out of Nanaimo. Low points but heavy bases and a nice fat body. If he was in a spot I could legally shot, I would have put him down!
TheProvider
08-24-2011, 07:19 PM
If it was me, I'd wouldn't be disappointed. I'd know he was a blacktail and thats all that matters. Oh an on a side note, I'd charge you a beer to come take a look at the rack :D
guest
08-24-2011, 09:48 PM
Next Record will be set by ........ PROGUIDE 66 ....... Pemberton way. But in the BT zone hahaha
CT
PS on film live 1st then bang flop ....... Gatehouse to help haul out.
sfire436
08-25-2011, 01:58 PM
just like a calf moose cant be over 200 pounds.Jelvis where do you come up with this stuff?Do you even have any pictures o f all these blacktails you shot?
Jelvis does not even have a picture of himself for gods sake.
Big Lew
08-25-2011, 02:27 PM
As others have suggested, blacktail and mulies do interbreed, so unless there's a DNA done, how can the hunter know, especially if it's physical appearance is that of a blacktail? I know a young man that shot a very large-bodied, exceptionally large and heavy-racked blacktail on the east side of Stave lake. It was in the local papers. As far as everyone was concerned, it was a monster blacktail, but even though it was well within blacktail territory, it is far from unreasonable to rule out cross-breeding when one realizes how easy it is for both species to be in the Upper Stave watershed. The same can be argued for the Chilliwack, Hope, and Pemberton areas,
Dmace,
You have a Book Nontypical Muley and you are jealous of guys killing rat blacktails on the other side of the water? LMAO! What you have hanging on your wall is my dream. :)
Proguide,
A better question would be to reverse it. A pure 165+ muley killed on the blacktail side. How many guys would have the character to not enter it because they knew full well it wasn't a blacktail?
sceddy
08-27-2011, 12:00 PM
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/thumbs/blacktails.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=18224&title=blacktails&cat=500)The buck second one in from the left was 108lbs, hide off. Scored 106 plus or minus an inch or two, The next one over was 100 lbs, hide off and scored 108. All blacktails from the southern island. Live weight these bucks would have been around 160lbs , and I 've seen alot bigger.
pro 111
08-27-2011, 10:18 PM
Just a point off interest for some. I live in the Queen Charlottes and have shot many big bucks here . The biggest was 132lbs , with the hide and the head. Mid october. I weigh all the big one just out of curiosity and this was the biggest. Any guess as to what he would have weighed in the whole.
Proguide I dont think that many hunters can appreciate how hard it is to hunt for blacktails let alone something that your looking for. I understand your question and how frustrating it would be. I lived in victoria for a couple of dozen years and primarily hunted BT's especially the 90's . Those were tough years, I would still tag out every year but only saw one decent buck that could be put on a wall. Hunting BT's on the island is similar to here except there was less to no snow there. I dont hunt Bt's here very often anymore because its just to dam tough, hunting muleys is easier. Hunting in a coastal downpour every time your out hunting sucks let alone the thick salal you have to climb threw,I remember taking my scope off my rifle because water kept making it past the covers. Hunting muleys in nasty cold weather is easier than when its pouring rain out. Other hunters may have read about how tough BT hunting is but unless you have done it you really cant appreciate how hard and frustrating it can be. I mean no disrespect to the many hard working muley hunters out there but those ghosts that Proguide are hunting are tough and in my opinion one of if not the toughest animal to kill in this province.I havent hunted sheep so subtract that one from the list.
proguide66
08-31-2011, 07:09 PM
Dmace,
You have a Book Nontypical Muley and you are jealous of guys killing rat blacktails on the other side of the water? LMAO! What you have hanging on your wall is my dream. :)
Proguide,
A better question would be to reverse it. A pure 165+ muley killed on the blacktail side. How many guys would have the character to not enter it because they knew full well it wasn't a blacktail?
Thats an easy one to answer as the answer is in the question " pure muley"...would be impossible to enter as it was just that.
On the other side of the coin , how many muley fanatics ( book fanatics) would spark up protest if a 'hybrid' blacktail' with muley 'looks' to it came in as the new #1 typical or non typical mule deer? how many muley fanatics would say "No way , it aint a pure strain muley" ?
I saw pics of a blacktail from CA that scored well over 200 inches NT. The tail was definately blacktail not muley, but it was killed in the cross zones and the hunter was esstatic to kill a giant cross and didn't care about the whole Book thing. Also several years ago saw pics of an old timer blacktail that was in that 215-220 range. The documentation said it was killed way into the Pure blacktail zone of CA. The new owner was in the process of getting it DNA tested but since I haven't seen a 'DECLARATION' of a New World's Record from B&C, I would guess it didn't pass. The fact is there will always be cheats. It sometimes takes some major hoops to jump through before the B&C will Declare a new World Record. Legend has it that there is a typical muley that scores bigger than the Burris Buck. It so happens to be owned by the imfamous Kirt Darner. It is known as Lee's Meat Buck. But the B&C will not touch it with a 10 foot pole because of their past dealings will the cheat known as Darner.
proguide66
08-31-2011, 09:57 PM
hmm..interesting.I also feel that 'sometimes' Canadian trophy's have a tougher time getting a fair score as opposed to U.S. bucks...not always but I have heard of a few incidents that make you shake your head.
Lots of those southern 'pure blacktails' of the U.S have some amazingly long ears and 'teardrop' tainted 'blacktails' but still get blacktail recognition , not to mention the total 'muley' headgear.
thankfully i'm more into hunting them than listing them!:-D
lovemywinchester
09-01-2011, 12:47 PM
Here is the record blacktail. What a monster. Do you think there is a deer close to this between Squam and Pemby Proguide?
http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l573/zippogold/WR_Blacktail_Deer1.jpg
My buddy lives near Kamloops and last year he saw a herd of mulies with three whitetails at the back of the pack. Hybrids may be more common than we expect. Maybe its needed for genetic diversity to prevent inbreeding. Just a thought.
proguide66
09-01-2011, 05:44 PM
With what the americans have as 'blacktails' I dont think the new B&C blacktail will ever be coming from north of the border...BUT..who knows! There is deffinitely btails pushing that frame between Chiliwack to here to farther up the coast ! Theres been a handfull of bucks from B.C. with those same front forks , weight..but those kind of back forks are about as common up here on a Btail as Stone sheep on the Fraser!
A BIG local Btail around here would have 5" back forks...4" is great! 8 "+ fronts are runnin around for sure.
44inchStone
10-25-2013, 08:02 AM
I hear ya on that one.
We kind of get screwed on this BC Book when it comes to Blacktails. I too have killed some nice ones but nothing ever compare to those Pemberton or Chilliwack half breeds.
Better genetics and way bigger bucks, both in horns and body. It's like comparing our Island bucks with Sitka blacktails. The past post with that 200 lb blacktail.....I've seen some huge bodied bucks on the island too and I'm sure some were certainly pushing the 200lb mark for sure, but the horns just are not there. I think he is 200lbs because of all the apples someone is feeding him!! beauty either way!!
Coming from the Island I think only blacktails should be counted from here !! Jealous as hell of you guy's on the mainland ! :)[/QUOTE]
Coast mountain guy
10-25-2013, 05:15 PM
What if the deer scored 210' Gross and was in this imaginary line area? The B&C line can't be properly defined and when the hunter went and had it DNA tested on his own it came back inconclusive? Lab that tested it said it could be 2 things.
1- Poor DNA samples of the area due to very little deer population
2- Blacktail and Mulies in that area have similiar DNA patterns
And never to hear from B&C again!
knockturnal
10-25-2013, 09:16 PM
Congrats on bringing up a 2 year old thread.
IronNoggin
10-27-2013, 12:59 PM
Congrats on bringing up a 2 year old thread.
Might be two years old, but does present an interesting read / discussion :wink:
... if DNA were to come into place a PILE..and I mean MANY blacktails in 'The Book' would be disqualified.
Some Good Truth to that assessment.
Personally I'd like to see some form of distinction between our Island Blacktails and those from the mainland.
They are as different as night and day, and methinks it is overdue that fact should be recognized...
Good Luck this year ProGuide! I'll be pouring over your reports and waiting in anticipation for the next...
Cheers,
Nog
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