Help Tuning Drop Away - Trophy Taker Smackdown

[Ike]

Hi Folks,

I am trying to tune a Trophy Taker Smackdown but cannot make the launcher fall fast enough. I am getting fletching contact (black marks from the launcher on the blazers)

The Smackdown works like the Limbdriver -it is opposite spring action than most fall aways. (The spring action lifts the launcher, and the string attaches to the upcable or the bottom limb and pulls the launcher down by the movement of the cable or limb as the bow fires.) I tried both cable and limb attachment witout luck, I also moved the internal spring location to take some tension out - that reduced but has not eliminated the problem.

Appreciate any help or suggestions, I am about ready to turf it which would be a shame because it is a great rest. Limbdriver should be the same approach.
Cheers

[Vader]

Although I am not familiar with the smackdown I do have the Limb driver that works really well for me.. Same principal for both.
Found this on you tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXIt0igXLG4

If you follow these directions should be no problem. Looks really simple. Try turning cock feather up. Is your nocking point\d-loop too low? if so this causes tail low departure and probably causes contact with the arm of the smackdown even at it's lowest..
Try paper tune or walk back yet?

[oldtimer]

Don't know if this is relevant but I always shoot with cock feather up with my drop away as do everyone else I know. Mike

[Ike]

Hi folks,
I forgot to mention that I am shooting cock vane up, the arrow markings are on the bootom of the two hen vanes as they ride over the launcher prongs. Is there a way to make the Limbdriver, Smackdown design fall sooner? It is basically the opposite design of a standard drop away - the launcher is up at full draw by its own spring tension and the limb pulls the launcher down as the bow is fired.

Bow has been walkback tuned is set up slightly nock high, I could/will try a little higher but I need to make the launcher clear at least an two or three inches sooner....that's a fair bit more than I think I will get from raising the nock set a bit.

Thanks and Cheers

[willyqbc]

could be a nock travel issue......pretty hard to check without a draw board though. Have someone look at the arrow to see how it sits bofre you draw, then have them watch as you slowly draw the bow and watch to see if the nock end seems to climb higher as you draw. Basically looking to see if the arrow is more nock high at full draw then it is pre-draw. How it sits in relation to the cable rod in both positions can give you a good visual comparison. If you have downward nock travel it will drive the nock end of the arrow down as it comes off the string. Can easily be fixed on a dual cam bow by adjusting the cam timing....can be a little trickier on a solocam. What kind of bow? Dual cam, solocam???

If that all looks ok the cable length on limbdriver style rests should be short enough that the launcher only reaches its full height in the last couple inches of draw, same idea as a conventional drop-away. Wherever it lifts to full height as you draw is where it will fall as the string comes forward....the closer you make that spot to full draw, the sooner it will get out of the way, the arrow only needs support for the first few inches of the shot.

Hope this helps
Chris

[Vader]

On this rest as soon as you take tension off the driver cable the rest lifts into position by a spring and dropped by the control cable or limb.. opposite to conventional where the control cable lifts the rest into position and the spring drops the rest when the arrow is released.
I'm thinking more cam timing or arrow spine. Spine first.. although even a new bow can have issues.

[Bow Walker]

Wow, what a hassle. You gotta ask yourself - 'is it worth the hassle?'

I'd be thinking seriously of changing rests.

[Ike]

Wow lots of good comments thanks,

The bow is a twin cam and in time, the problem is the launcher comes up within the first inch or less of arrow travel.....and conversely starts to fall within the last inch or less when released.....too close and I need to find a way to make it rise/fall sooner.

Bow Walker I agree and it was originally meant for my X-force but I ended up switching to a G5 rest for the same reasons. When I got this new bow it seemed a shame to have a 'perfectly good' unused rest (and it is a nice rest BTW) so I tried it again on the King Cobra. Unfortaunately I seem to be missing something in the details and am going to switch to a Ripcord Red (probably should have just done that from the start and let the shop install and set up the ripcord for me).

I will try stiffer spined arrows as well out of curiosity. Right now I am shooting 27.5" dl, 26.75" arrows (.400 spine with 85 grain points) and 62#.

The Smackdown is a really nice rest and I wanted to make it work, it will likely work perfectly on a different bow.

Cheers

[Bowzone_Mikey]

I am with Chris...... I would look at cam timing and nock height first ...

you might tear nock high but i am willing to bet that the only reason for that is the fact you are hitting the rest on the way out

[Bow Walker]

Wow lots of good comments thanks,

The bow is a twin cam and in time, the problem is the launcher only comes up within the last inch or less of arrow travel.....and conversely starts to fall within the last inch or less when released.....too close and I need to find a way to make it rise/fall sooner.

Bow Walker I agree and it was originally meant for my X-force but I ended up switching to a G5 rest for the same reasons. When I got this new bow it seemed a shame to have a 'perfectly good' unused rest (and it is a nice rest BTW) so I tried it again on the King Cobra. Unfortaunately I seem to be missing something in the details and am going to switch to a Ripcord Red (probably should have just done that from the start and let the shop install and set up the ripcord for me)........
That sounds to me like an issue with the attachment cord length or where the cord is actually attached to either the limb or the cable. Are you sure that the cord is tightened up enough?

[Ike]

I will try raising the nock point a bit and see if that helps.
Results to follow.
Cheers

[Vader]

Limb driver attaches to the top limb. This one attaches to the bottom limb.
It should start to rise as soon as the bow is drawn as the spring should lift it up. Something doesn't add up.

[willyqbc]

The bow is a twin cam and in time

A bow can be in time and still have nock travel issues. If both cams are slightly advanced or ******ed but still in time with one another you may have nock travel issues. Kind of hard to explain, sorry but the more info you supply the more I am thinking this may not be the issue.


the problem is the launcher only comes up within the last inch or less of arrow travel.....and conversely starts to fall within the last inch or less when released.....too close and I need to find a way to make it rise/fall sooner.



Strange that it falls at a different point than it raises up. As the limb flexes in during the draw cycle the tension is taken off the cord allowing the rest to rise, conversely as the limb flexes back out during the shot the rest should be activated when the limb passes the same point that made it rise.......hmmmmm, this ones a bit of a head scratcher!

Chris

[Ike]

A bow can be in time and still have nock travel issues. If both cams are slightly advanced or ******ed but still in time with one another you may have nock travel issues. Kind of hard to explain, sorry but the more info you supply the more I am thinking this may not be the issue.

I am still learning about this stuff. I haven't messed with it ....that said I will have to ask in another thread about a good source of info on how to tune a bow so I don't mess it up ;)

Strange that it falls at a different point than it raises up. As the limb flexes in during the draw cycle the tension is taken off the cord allowing the rest to rise, conversely as the limb flexes back out during the shot the rest should be activated when the limb passes the same point that made it rise.......hmmmmm, this ones a bit of a head scratcher!

That was my mistake, I meant to say the launcher rises up in the first inch or less of draw and falls in the last inch or less. I have corrected the initial post.

Chris

Response above in post.
I probably fall into that catagory where I know enough to be dangeruous and get things 85% of the way but have yet to learn the fine points of tuning and setup to get that final 15% proper. I have a real interest and will learn this stuff eventually.

Thanks and Cheers

[Ike]

deleted....(double tap)

[willyqbc]

Ok, that makes more sense. I would tighten (shorten) your draw cord a bit at a time until the bow is most of the way drawn before the rest activates, should fix your problem. Easiest way to do this would be to unhook the cord and twist it 5 turns or so then try again, keep doing this until you get the drop timing you need. If the problem persists then I would look at the nock travel, but i suspect this will fix your problem.

Chris

[Ike]

Hi all,
I started to work on raising the nocking point last night but with no immediate change I put it back into place and have decided to leave it alone until after next weekend's match since I don't want to break something like I am apt to do.

I am getting really comfortable with the King Cobra now. I had an unexpected Robin Hood with my first two arrows at 40yards (hate it when that happens) and then arrows touching (sometimes) out to 50 so I think I will live with the vane contact for next weekend since it seems to be consistent at least, and work on it again after then with some stiffer spined arrows and more time.
(Note to self - no more group shooting)

Thanks for all of your help so far
Cheers

[Bow Walker]

That's the ticket - patience, and trying just one thing at a time. Eliminate what doesn't affect the problem and what's left will be your solution.

[Ike]

UPDATE:
I tried the Smackdown at the Williams Lake shoot, unfortunately with dismal results. Rather than mess with it Saturday night I swapped it out for a Ripcord Red rest and stiffer 350 spine arrows, what a difference!!
It was so much better, there is absolutely no contact with the Ripcord Red and the stiffer arrows flew straight and true. I didn't try the .400s so am not sure if they contributed to the problem or not.... at that time I was not into troubleshooting. Sunday's score increased 35 points, I didn't shoot the lights out but I shot to my ability (unlike Saturday).

I took a close look and have some theories which I will explore; one having to do with the 5" brace height and the fact that my blazers are hitting the launcher when the arrow is nocked and the rest held up, meaning there really isn't enough brace height with my arrow setup to allow the necessary clearance.....but I will look more into that later and discuss with Trophy Taker. The TT rest is a great product that I could probably get to work with some modification and tweaking, I think on a longer bh bow it would work no problem.

Thanks for the input and Cheers

[Bow Walker]

Ok, that makes more sense. I would tighten (shorten) your draw cord a bit at a time until the bow is most of the way drawn before the rest activates, should fix your problem. Easiest way to do this would be to unhook the cord and twist it 5 turns or so then try again, keep doing this until you get the drop timing you need. If the problem persists then I would look at the nock travel, but i suspect this will fix your problem.

Chris
Chris's comments about the cord made me wonder if both ends of the cord are tight and secure. Simple thing to have loosen up on you, and it would have a definite affect on the arrow rest.

[Ike]

Ok, that makes more sense. I would tighten (shorten) your draw cord a bit at a time until the bow is most of the way drawn before the rest activates, should fix your problem. Easiest way to do this would be to unhook the cord and twist it 5 turns or so then try again, keep doing this until you get the drop timing you need. If the problem persists then I would look at the nock travel, but i suspect this will fix your problem.

Chris


Chris's comments about the cord made me wonder if both ends of the cord are tight and secure. Simple thing to have loosen up on you, and it would have a definite affect on the arrow rest.


No it doesn't work that way with that type of rest, not like one that attaches to the downcable, it works totally opposite of a conventional drop away. The rest is held down by the upcable at rest. As the bow is drawn the launcher comes up (by the spring power) since the tension is off the cord, this happens in the first inch or two of draw....and thus will not start to fall until the last inch or so of upcable moving downward. I can't make it rise any later.
If there is any slack in the cord the launcher sits up and will not drop fully, that was when it was tearing vanes off at release. With the cord tight the rest sits down, I tried it a little tight as well as really really tight and it doesn't change things
I believe the problem is due to the short brace height, if the bh was 7" there would be 2" between the time the launcher fully fell and the arrow passed and that would allow clearance. With only 5" this space isn't there and the arrow is passing over the launcher just as the bowstring finishes the forward travel. (Did I explain that well? )

[Bowzone_Mikey]

that makes perfect sense Brad ... hence the reason why I am not a big fan of those style of rests on any parralell limb bow .... very little movement untill the very end of the shot cycle ....they would be no problem on a short brace .. recurve style bow (think Hoyt Super or Turbo Tec) as those limbs each have a good 4" movement on the end from relax to full draw.

even tho I just ordered a another trophy taker original for my Pure (to match the one on my Diamond) I really like the Ripcord Code Red rests ... where they are set and when you draw they flip a cog internally and held up while at draw .... when its let go it drops and stays dropped (no bounce) withing 3" of arrow travel

[Ike]

that makes perfect sense Brad ... hence the reason why I am not a big fan of those style of rests on any parralell limb bow .... very little movement untill the very end of the shot cycle ....they would be no problem on a short brace .. recurve style bow (think Hoyt Super or Turbo Tec) as those limbs each have a good 4" movement on the end from relax to full draw.

even tho I just ordered a another trophy taker original for my Pure (to match the one on my Diamond) I really like the Ripcord Code Red rests ... where they are set and when you draw they flip a cog internally and held up while at draw .... when its let go it drops and stays dropped (no bounce) withing 3" of arrow travel

The Ripcord Red went on and tuned really fast and easily. I am impressed and will keep it on my bow.
I saw somewhere that a spring from a RH rest can be used to turn my LH Smackdown into a standard style rest, that might be the easiest fix. The rest is well made and has a lot of really good features, just didn't work for my brain and and bow setup.

Cheers

[Vader]

I think it had/has more to do with arrow spine than brace height, (fletching clearance). Although the combination of the two was detrimental to optimal flight. If you had optimal spine, you would have known for sure if there was fletch contact because of brace height which would have been an easy fix with shorter fletch. However, once you loose confidence in something, it is very difficult to overcome the anxiety that you experienced with it.
It would still pick my arse that I couldn't figure it out though!

[Ike]

I think it had/has more to do with arrow spine than brace height, (fletching clearance). Although the combination of the two was detrimental to optimal flight. If you had optimal spine, you would have known for sure if there was fletch contact because of brace height which would have been an easy fix with shorter fletch. However, once you loose confidence in something, it is very difficult to overcome the anxiety that you experienced with it.
It would still pick my arse that I couldn't figure it out though!

LOL!Yeah it is a bit annoying for sure. I think if I had more time to mess around with it, and earlier access to stiffer spined arrows and rest I would have tried more things/ Unfortunately I only received the Ripcord and arrows on Friday night, and after shooting badly all day Saturday I just wanted my bow to work. Saturday night in the middle of the shoot didn't leave me a lot of time to mess around with different options anyway. I do agree that spine was likely an additional factor.
Given the initial problems I had with the rest last year I didn't give it a fair shake as I should have. I'll keep it in a box and maybe one day take the time to play with it some more and figure it out.

Cheers

[Bow Walker]

Sounds like the best place for that rest ("I'll keep it in a box"). I feel your frustration and know that you'll have confidence issues with that rest, even though you might get i t working on that bow. It seems to me that the ability to adapt to any bow should be something that any rest should be capable of doing, and doing well.

Reverse-action rests like that one are just asking for problems, especially on such short limbed bows as the PSE speed bows. New rest = problem solved.