cutting trails

[dino]

Just wondering how many guys here have cut atv trails, or hiking trails to get into an area not just to retrieve dead game? How legal is it?

[Gateholio]

It's not legal to cut trails on Crown land without a permit.

That said, mountain bikers have been going nuts with illegal trial building for the last 2 decades with virtually zero enforcement.

[Torch]

Yeah, thats a tough one... do you have a specific spot your trying to get to? How are you cutting a trail? ie: nipping down a few (small)trees here and there where you have no choice...or punching straight through come hell or high water...

I am making trails on my property right now... and will be making a quad trail or two to get to the back side for hunting soon and i just ride slowly and methodically through the bush letting the trees tell me which way to go...

And watch for old skidder trails!! It's like a freaking jackpot when you want to get through the bush easily... :)

[jeff]

up in region 7 25 we cut a trail over 20 km over about a five year period for getting back into some secluded swamps they have ended up being some best moose hunting grounds ever i never even thought about the legal aspect

[one-shot-wonder]

What about clearing old horse logging trails from years and years ago......can you maintain a road/trail?

[Paulyman]

What about clearing old horse logging trails from years and years ago......can you maintain a road/trail?

Ya that's no problem. I spoke with someone from parks BC when I was looking into helping with a trail building project up to Hanging Lake near Chilliwack Lake.The ranger said it was no issue at all to clear existing trails of overgrowth,but making a new trail was not allowed.

[.300WSMImpact!]

Ya that's no problem. I spoke with someone from parks BC when I was looking into helping with a trail building project up to Hanging Lake near Chilliwack Lake.The ranger said it was no issue at all to clear existing trails of overgrowth,but making a new trail was not allowed.

How about in a provincial park can you maintain old trails?

[jeff]

once your off the beaten path whoose going to no and to make room for your quad and just clearing deadfalls and small underbrush whats the big deal look what the logging companies do up there they rape it

[one-shot-wonder]

Ya that's no problem. I spoke with someone from parks BC when I was looking into helping with a trail building project up to Hanging Lake near Chilliwack Lake.The ranger said it was no issue at all to clear existing trails of overgrowth,but making a new trail was not allowed.

That's what I figured, it's scaring leaving the judgement up to the guy running the saw/axe.........."it sure looked like an old existing trail"????

Interesting BC parks would say that as some parks don't even allow wood chopping or flower picking.

[One Shot]

once your off the beaten path whoose going to no and to make room for your quad and just clearing deadfalls and small underbrush whats the big deal look what the logging companies do up there they rape it

So you just want to make it worse? It sounds like you do not care about the condition of our wilderness but you seem willing to make more of of a mess of it........

[Gateholio]

I doubt anyone is going to try to stop you.

[jeff]

are you kdding me how is cutting a trail have anything to do with not careing about the condition of our wilderness makes no sense to me buddy but everyone has an opinion

[Jagermeister]

If I did I would tell no one.

[dino]

so putting a sign up saying "Dino's Trail" is a bad idea?

[CanuckShooter]

so putting a sign up saying "Dino's Trail" is a bad idea?


Probably not the brightest idea on the planet. :-) If you called it the Christy Clarke heritage trail, they might fix it up for you, put in some nice out houses and such??

[Dirty Steve]

Good thread, funny no one has chimed in that really knows the true answer. If so I would like to hear it... I think it comes down to common sense, respect, and morrals.
I am a quader, hunter and general lover of the outdoors. Doesen't mean I am ignorent of my amazing surroundings or disrespectfull of what time and nature has built... but I still ride my quad and I still build trails. Hard trails!... Good Trails.... If I had any doubt in my mind that I had a negative impact I would be the first to rectify it. It is a well ballanced eco system, with people that respect it and have common sense we can all live in good ballance.

[Gateholio]

Good thread, funny no one has chimed in that really knows the true answer. If so I would like to hear it... I think it comes down to common sense, respect, and morrals.
I am a quader, hunter and general lover of the outdoors. Doesen't mean I am ignorent of my amazing surroundings or disrespectfull of what time and nature has built... but I still ride my quad and I still build trails. Hard trails!... Good Trails.... If I had any doubt in my mind that I had a negative impact I would be the first to rectify it. It is a well ballanced eco system, with people that respect it and have common sense we can all live in good ballance.


Here is the true answer:

Building new trails in 2011 in BC on Crown Land is ILLEGAL unless you have a permit. What you are doing is ILLEGAL.

[Swamp mule]

Yes it is illegal as you are harvesting green standing timber. in order to fall any standing timber a person would require a Forest License to Cut but that is not pertaining to trail building. That is for actual harvesting of timber for consumption. This is under the Forest and Range Practices Act and Forest act

[ryanb]

Someone was cutting a quad trail at the end of an old and rather long spur road near where I hunt. MOE posted a notice at the trail head that it was illegal and they would badly deactivate the spur road if it continued. Enforcement? Not really, but they are watching.

[Livewire322]

Just get a permit to cut beetle kill! I've heard of these permits they are something like less than 50$

[hunter1947]

Any trees that are alive you can not cut without a permit on crown land.

[gwillim]

Gatehouse gave the accurate answer way back at the beginning of this thread. It doesn't matter if you are cutting timber or not, unauthorized trail building is illegal. The problems with poorly planned trails include diverting water onto unstable slopes, and degradation of areas with moist to wet soils. Anyone in the Nelson area who has been into Hazeldeane lake knows what I mean (braided quad tracks, mud pits where seepage meadows used to be). I also understand that the govt enforcement folks have been directed to pay more attention to this, based on complaints from the public.

[Squamch]

why not just not cut trees down to build trails? If I can go places in a toyota truck without needing to cut trees, I'm sure you can do it with a quad.

[Mauser98]

Here's what the Forest Recreation Regs say:


3*(1)* For the purposes of section 57 of the Act, the construction, rehabilitation or maintenance of a trail or recreation facility does not include

(a)*marking a route with ribbons, cairns or other directional indicators, or
(b)*minor clearing of brush, downed trees or repairs to a trail or recreation facility.
(2)* Despite section 57 of the Act, a person may construct, rehabilitate or maintain a trail without the authorization of the minister if doing so is the only reasonable means of minimizing a risk to personal safety.

So it is legal to build a trail on Crown Land. A couple of years ago we found where someone had cut a 4 km trail into a hunting area. They hadn't cut down any trees but had done a lot of bucking and cutting brush. No adverse impact to the area as the terrain was fairly flat or rolling. Completely legal imo.

[Wild one]

You need a permit but a trapper can cut trails on his trap line

[Gateholio]

Here's what the Forest Recreation Regs say:


So it is legal to build a trail on Crown Land. A couple of years ago we found where someone had cut a 4 km trail into a hunting area. They hadn't cut down any trees but had done a lot of bucking and cutting brush. No adverse impact to the area as the terrain was fairly flat or rolling. Completely legal imo.

I'm not sure you would want to rely on that exemption as a Get out of jail Free card to construct a trail carte blanche........They are talking about a bit of minor brushing and if there was a real safety concern, and you would have to demonstrate the safety concern. There is a process to apply for permission, though.




Unauthorized trail or recreation
facility construction
102.(1.) Subject to subsection (2), a person must obtain the consent of the district manager
before constructing, rehabilitating or maintaining a trail or other recreation facility on
Crown land.
(2.) Subsection (1) does not apply to a person who is authorized under another enactment to
construct, rehabilitate or maintain a trail or recreational facility on Crown land.
(3.) The district manager may, in a notice given to a person who contravenes subsection (1),
order the person to
(a) remove or destroy, or both, the trail or facility, and
(b) restore the land underlying the trail or facility.

How to obtain consent required under section 102 of Act

4 (1) For the purposes of section 102 (1) of the Act, a person who is required to obtain the consent of the district manager before constructing, rehabilitating or maintaining a trail or recreation facility on Crown land must deliver a proposal regarding the matter to the district manager.
(2) A proposal must contain
(a) the name and address of the person making the proposal,
(b) the description of the proposal, including the purpose, location and date of the proposed work, and
(c) the action requested of the district manager.
(3) If a proposal fails to meet the requirements of subsection (2), the district manager must promptly notify the person named in the proposal of that failure.
(4) Within 60 days of receiving a proposal the district manager must determine whether or not to consent to it.
(5) The district manager may refuse to consent to a proposal only if he or she determines that the proposal will result in one or more of the following:
(a) significant risk to public safety;
(b) unacceptable damage to the environment;
(c) unresolvable conflict with other resource values or uses.
(6) The district manager must promptly notify the person named in the proposal of the district manger's determination to consent to, or to refuse to consent to, the proposal.
Right of review

5 (1) A person whose proposal is refused by the district manager under section 4 may have the refusal reviewed.
(2) The wording of sections 126, 127, 129 and 130 of the Act applies to the review under subsection (1) of this section as if the review was authorized under section 127 (1) of the Act


PART 3 - UNAUTHORIZED TRAIL OR RECREATION FACILITY CONSTRUCTION

Consent under section 102 of Act not required

3 (1) For the purposes of section 102 of the Act, the construction, rehabilitation or maintenance of a trail or recreation facility does not include
(a) marking a route with ribbons, cairns or other directional indicators,
(b) minor, piecemeal clearing of brush or downed trees, or
(c) emergency repairs to a trail or recreation facility that are necessary to prevent imminent damage to the trail or facility.
(2) Despite section 102 of the Act, a person may construct, rehabilitate or maintain a trail without the consent of the district manager if d

[dino]

Am I a criminal for travelling on a trail that was cut without a permit. I cant help but think that it would be a stretch for someone to prosecute me especially when there is far worse destruction made by some logging outfits that seem to regulate themselves with environmental damage. I say this because I noticed a trail that was just deactivated by a large excavator and the trail he deactivated was just logs that were removed from an old skidder trail to the above timber. This trail had been there for years and although it helps me by reducing hunting pressure by atvers it now seems that the machine created more environmental damage than the original trail. I own an excavator and I know that a 14 foot wide 50000 pound machine does more damage than a four foot trail in the middle of a slash. Im not trying to justify trail cutting but it is hard to swallow that there are far worse environmental crimes in the bush that is legal.

[RayHill]

i think you need a permit to cut firewood out of slash piles too?

[Gateholio]

Welcome to law making...... :)

[budismyhorse]

are you kdding me how is cutting a trail have anything to do with not careing about the condition of our wilderness makes no sense to me buddy but everyone has an opinion

Jeff, it is ILLEGAL to take your quad off a previously constructed road surface in this province (outside of private land).............so NO, you can't make your own trails.

regardless of what you think about the logging industry, they are doing that with permits

[budismyhorse]

Am I a criminal for travelling on a trail that was cut without a permit. I cant help but think that it would be a stretch for someone to prosecute me especially when there is far worse destruction made by some logging outfits that seem to regulate themselves with environmental damage. I say this because I noticed a trail that was just deactivated by a large excavator and the trail he deactivated was just logs that were removed from an old skidder trail to the above timber. This trail had been there for years and although it helps me by reducing hunting pressure by atvers it now seems that the machine created more environmental damage than the original trail. I own an excavator and I know that a 14 foot wide 50000 pound machine does more damage than a four foot trail in the middle of a slash. Im not trying to justify trail cutting but it is hard to swallow that there are far worse environmental crimes in the bush that is legal.

no one argues that an excavator would do more damage than your quad......but there aren't thousands of excavators rambling around in the bush all around every town in the country.....but every truck in this province has a quad in the back.

Stick to old roads and your laughing.

If you see "environmental crimes" out there REPORT THEM........

In my opinion, every Tom Dick and Harry out there cutting their own trails of any kind is an Environmental Crime.

That logging slash you talk about.....the forestry company is legally bound to reforest that area, when you destroy their ground and crop trees you are taking away from the reforestation aspects of that particular area. You cost them money and are contributing to the "environmental crimes" you claim to see in the bush. So who is the criminal?

[dino]

no one argues that an excavator would do more damage than your quad......but there aren't thousands of excavators rambling around in the bush all around every town in the country.....but every truck in this province has a quad in the back.

Stick to old roads and your laughing.

If you see "environmental crimes" out there REPORT THEM........

In my opinion, every Tom Dick and Harry out there cutting their own trails of any kind is an Environmental Crime.

That logging slash you talk about.....the forestry company is legally bound to reforest that area, when you destroy their ground and crop trees you are taking away from the reforestation aspects of that particular area. You cost them money and are contributing to the "environmental crimes" you claim to see in the bush. So who is the criminal?
I agree with some of what you say, the tree planters had planted around the trail and possibly they might have made the trail and the company is obligated to repair the damage, but their machine drove over the planted trees and only time will tell if they replant the deactivated road. As far as travelling logging roads goes I have a jeep for that and I can tell you that Ive seen more damage done by horses then by atv. Cutting new logging roads should be a crime by your logic if Tom Dick and Harry are cutting trails.

[budismyhorse]

Dino, it IS illegal to cut logging roads without the proper permits and approval.........

I own horses and have used quads in the bush and personal life for as long as I remember.......how do you justify that horses do more damage? Seems far fetched when you consider how many people are out there with rangers and quads these days. Do you have a specific example? or just blowing smoke?

[Big Lew]

For those of you that are cutting trails for your atv's, or are curious as to why the gov't has made it illegal to cut trails without permit, or has introduced laws making it illegal to take motorized vehicles off established roads and trails, log onto "mudd-ox hydraulic hill climbing." When you see how much damage that one vehicle does in just a few minutes, and then consider how many similar atv's etc. are used in B.C., it pretty well is self-explanatory.

[dino]

budis myhorse. I want to make one thing clear, I do not cut trails with or without permits but if I so desire to I have no moral issues doing it without a permit. Just because someone retains a permit to make a road for logging doesnt make it morally right. The gov't makes everything illegal without a permit. As far as the horses doing more damage than an atv it is a proven fact and all you have to do is google it. I have been in the alpine many times on old horse trails that atvs cant access and those horses will have damaged that landscape for hundreds of years. That is just one simple example. When I hike on old horse trails I hate the mud holes they create and if horses were banned I guarantee I would not get stuck knee deep in horse rutts with a pack on my back. Horses have been linked to introducing invasive weeds and the list goes on. I think that the land has a limit to what it can take and an atv or horse should be ridden with respect to the land. I hope one day to own horses so I can ride them on the many trails this province has to offer and if I do and run into a quader I will not curse at the quaders because they have every right to be there as I do.

[budismyhorse]

UHHHH consider how many atv's are out there compared to horses........and they contribute to the spread of invasive plants as well. For every mud hole out there a horse trail has made there are hundreds of destroyed wetlands created by atvs....... and if ATV's were allowed in alpine areas you'd see some real damage. I've personally been part of campaigns and clean up jobs after atv clubs have destroyed or tried to destroy alpine areas around here..........ATV clubs from Alberta used to think alpine basins in the kootenays were playgounds....... Hijack over.

[goatdancer]

You make zero sense and have only proven my point when you consider how many atv's are out there compared to horses........and they contribute to the spread of invasive plants as well. For every mud hole out there a horse trail has made there are hundreds of destroyed wetlands created by atvs....... and if ATV's were allowed in alpine areas you'd see some real damage. I've personally been part of campaigns and clean up jobs after atv clubs have destroyed or tried to destroy alpine areas around here..........ATV clubs from Alberta used to think alpine basins in the kootenays were playgounds....... Hijack over.

Horses, like ATVs do cause serious damage to trails. If ATVs are driven carefully, the damage should be minimal. If just a few horses use a trail, the damage should be minimal. If ATV drivers ride like raped apes, the damage will be extensive. If horses are used a lot on a given trail, the damage will be extensive. I have hiked in the Tombstone Lakes area in the Kananaskis and the trails were gouged out over a foot deep by repetitive horse traffic. Also seen some really bad trails caused by irresponsible ATV riders.

[boxhitch]

Horses, like ATVs do cause serious damage to trails.nothing beyond what should be expected, it is a trail after all.


he trails were gouged out over a foot deep by repetitive horse traffic. gouged out ? Just where does the dirt go ? And don't tell me they carry it away in their shoes.

Any traffic on a any trail will churn up dirt and tend to hold water in spots, no different than potholes on a road.
Eco damage is caused when water is channeled to cause erosion on large areas, or flows are diverted from a natural watercourse.
The rest is not worth acknowledging, in the big picture.

[Gateholio]

Horses don't do near the damage that mountain bikes do....It's incredible to see decades old horse/foot/wildlife trails turn into ditches in a few years from mountain bike use.

[boxhitch]

trails turn into ditches in a few years from mountain bike use.Yeah, they don't build them with water control in mind. The steep sections get a long continuous rut carved in and the water follows the course all the way...........but only to the first depression or corner where it runs out.

[budismyhorse]

Horses don't do near the damage that mountain bikes do....It's incredible to see decades old horse/foot/wildlife trails turn into ditches in a few years from mountain bike use.

Gatehouse, I just have to walk a few blocks away and take a few pics that would blow this thread to pieces........it is unreal what two wheeled folks are doing in the bush.

In my opinion, the Gov't should be stepping in and cracking down on that type of building.......they really just don't know what they are doing is wrong.

[frenchbar]

A few spots i use to hunt on foot that took a couple hrs to hike into and was decent hunting had quad trails cut in and they are now f@@@@d.. after a couple yrs of constant quad traffic...thanks alot mofos!!

[Darksith]

You guys are beating a "dead horse trail"

I think everyone can agree that both horses and motorized vehicles both do damage to the environment as seen before either crosses it. The big thing everyone likes to overlook is simple amount of use. A quad can drive over an area and not do damage, same with a horse. Now if we say that same quad drives the same route 500 times, guess what, there will be damage, same with a horse.

If you can find a route into an area that you can maneuver through without cutting down any trees, and you can continuously alter the route slightly each time, or after a few times you will find that neither mode of transportation damages the environment significantly compared to its state as observed before it was traveled upon. Moderation is the key to life for almost everything.

As for is it legal to build a trail, nah, but can I drive my quad through the woods legally in some places, yuppers. What about cutting a piece of dead blow down out of my way, sure. Would it be most ethical of me to limit the number of times I travel that exact path, thus altering my route, thus not building, maintaining or traversing a trail yet still getting to my destination. of course it would. Is it doable, maybe...maybe not. Each situation is unique.

[goatdancer]

nothing beyond what should be expected, it is a trail after all.

gouged out ? Just where does the dirt go ? And don't tell me they carry it away in their shoes.

Any traffic on a any trail will churn up dirt and tend to hold water in spots, no different than potholes on a road.
Eco damage is caused when water is channeled to cause erosion on large areas, or flows are diverted from a natural watercourse.
The rest is not worth acknowledging, in the big picture.

The dirt was washed away by runoffs and rain. My point was that anything that repetitively churns up trails on slopes will lead to erosion.

[goatdancer]

Gatehouse, I just have to walk a few blocks away and take a few pics that would blow this thread to pieces........it is unreal what two wheeled folks are doing in the bush.

In my opinion, the Gov't should be stepping in and cracking down on that type of building.......they really just don't know what they are doing is wrong.

The gov't doesn't have the guts to do anything. After all, these people are not using 'noisy ATVs and motorcycles'. They are out there getting excercise. It's easy to single out the motorized riders because the 'green movement' thinks mountain bikes are just wonderful.......

[dino]

You guys are beating a "dead horse trail"

I think everyone can agree that both horses and motorized vehicles both do damage to the environment as seen before either crosses it. The big thing everyone likes to overlook is simple amount of use. A quad can drive over an area and not do damage, same with a horse. Now if we say that same quad drives the same route 500 times, guess what, there will be damage, same with a horse.

If you can find a route into an area that you can maneuver through without cutting down any trees, and you can continuously alter the route slightly each time, or after a few times you will find that neither mode of transportation damages the environment significantly compared to its state as observed before it was traveled upon. Moderation is the key to life for almost everything.

As for is it legal to build a trail, nah, but can I drive my quad through the woods legally in some places, yuppers. What about cutting a piece of dead blow down out of my way, sure. Would it be most ethical of me to limit the number of times I travel that exact path, thus altering my route, thus not building, maintaining or traversing a trail yet still getting to my destination. of course it would. Is it doable, maybe...maybe not. Each situation is unique.

I think thats how alot of guys feel. Nice to see some honesty.

[Livewire322]

what about all those damned cows running around shitting everywhere, wrecking all the watering holes? they cause just as much damage as dirt bikes, quads, or horses.

[jeff]

ya there you go listen to some of theese posts fricken rediculous look at almost every forest service road out there some idiots droppen off there garbage old washin machines microwaves paint cans burnt cars i can go on and weve all seen this crap out there but rideing your quad thru the bush to retreive a kill aint hurten a bloody thing now give your head a shake some of u tree huggers

[jeff]

tree huggen hunters HUH

[budismyhorse]

Typical disrespectful attitude..... No surprise there.

I work in the Forest industry and coordinate mining exploration programs....... But I'm a tree hugger Lol.

It's called conservation dude.... Look it up in a dictionary if you know what that is.

If everyone had your attitude we'd have nothing left in this fine province.

[frenchbar]

Typical disrespectful attitude.... No surprise there. Instead of people wondering if you are an idiot it's better for you to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

no kiddin......

[budismyhorse]

ya there you go listen to some of theese posts fricken rediculous look at almost every forest service road out there some idiots droppen off there garbage old washin machines microwaves paint cans burnt cars i can go on and weve all seen this crap out there but rideing your quad thru the bush to retreive a kill aint hurten a bloody thing now give your head a shake some of u tree huggers

All that is ILLEGAL as well....................Yes there are lots of idiots out there that need a change in attitude towards the environment we all enjoy.

[cruiser]

Most trails keep expanding. A hiking or pack trail gets big enough and the guys on the quad thinks, that's a trail. Then the next guy that comes along sees someone else drove their quad through and does the same. Then the 2 seater guys do the same, then the 4wds. Just the nature of wanting to get further into the woods. Same with those trails in the alpine.

But really other than the exemptions posted earlier:

Section 57, Forest and Range Practices Act (FRPA):
Prohibits anyone from constructing, rehabilitating or maintaining a trail or other recreation facility on
Crown land without authorization. A new provision under this section enables the Minister to require
security as a condition for authorizing trail or recreation facility construction, if deemed necessary.

[835]

Here we go again fighting with ourselves. All user groups need a place to use. I aggree with every one in this thread right up to the arguing bit. There must be a way for the ATV clubs to have places to ride and the mtn bikers and the hikers. We all do our damage.

What we need to do as users as Dark sith said is self regulate. The horse guy to me is no better then the guy with the 81 Chevy 4x4 we all need a place.
yse i know there are hot spots of distruction, but if there is only one place for a community of users there is nothing wrong with that. No i am not promoting quads in alpine.

In my area There was harbour view, a place for 4x4 and bikes and mtn bikes we all used it and just it. yep if you went there it looked like it was hit with agent orange but that was where we went. All around it was still green and fine. Till they closed it because of 4x4 ing and now we have spread out because people are too damn high and mighty. If every one stopped arguing and just had a space to play and played in that space there would me miles of un harmed BC left to log. :) Sorry for the jab.

[jeff]

boy i got lots to say to you budismyhorse but ill bite my tongue i might get in trouble

[budismyhorse]

pm me tough guy

[Livewire322]

ok its just a thread! no need to let tempers flare.

[jeff]

i wont waste my time i got better things to do than talk to an internet tuff guy

[oldtimer]

i think you need a permit to cut firewood out of slash piles too?

Theoretically correct unless it is on a TFL and then you need the TFL holders permission in writing. If it is in a regular TSA then a permit is supposed to be necessary but nobody up here that I know gets one .
As to cutting ANY trees, Gatehouse is absolutely correct, end of discussion.Whatever you do don't bring common sense in to the equation......Mike

[budismyhorse]

Jeff, you are the one who is puffing their chest out.........if you want to discuss it further through PM I'd love to chat........ I'll give you my phone number if you want to talk about it that much. But don't air out some veiled threat to me on this thread.

I've said from the beginning what is illegal and what isn't.........some guys just don't agree and thats fine. I couldn't care less what guys like that think.

[aggiehunter]

Jeff, One of my favourite Elk spots that was hike in only was destroyed by a trail cut by quadders...end of comment.

[jeff]

so say u shot a moose back in a swamp the moose is a couple kms in the bush u going to pack it out by hand or u going to push a trail in and quad it out and then the trail aint used again till u bag another one maybe the next year or so and the only thing cut on the trail is deadfall i dont get the issue maybe its cuz i grew up in a logging town and most my family are loggers its not like every time u hunt that area u take your quad in that just wouldnt make much sense u only ever use the trail for retreival and the trai is hardly seeable every year cuz of growth and more deadfall

[Torch]

And they put the city of richmond over the best farmalnd in canada... wiped it out...gone forever...you know, a place that used to create food to eat so people can live.... bread basket of this province...is now condos and shooping malls with some massage parlors thrown in (for happy endings ;) ) ...

I think you fellas need to check back and really look at WHAT you write and HOW you word it... I can easily undeestand jeffs frustration with "the man" telling you Your confined to the areas "HE" approves... yeah **** that! I get enough of that in my day to day...don't need it out here while i'm trying to enjoy the wilds...

Now maybe for a fella like bud... Maybe he knows a little more about what is required (currently) to recieve a permit for a logging or access road...but keep in mind it wasn't always that way, I'm sure it all started as a tax...for the "man" to get a bigger cut of the pie... BUT we all can agree that we wan't the wilds to stay that way...but accessable (with some effort) by all types of enthusiests (sp)... any volume of traffic will harm the environment, doesn't matter what mode of travel...

The thing we need to keep in mind is that regardles of how you emotionally recieve the governments dictation of how/when/where you may travel in the wilds, The easyiest solution for any government is to FORBID it... or user pay... the last thing we need is more regulation for recreational users who do care about the environment but not about the government...there's a distinct diffrence.

Education and support for the communities that do enjoy the outdoors should have access to apply for new trails EASILY... doesent mean they all have to be approved but at least there is a channel to go through so the FEELING that there is fair and honest oppurtunity for non industry related trail expansion...

This is not a situation where you want government making decisions for you, instead we should bring solutions to them...

Aggiehunter< would you not be pissed off if your hike in elk spot was opened up by a foreign owned mining company doing some exploratory drilling? (serious question,not trying to be a smart ass)

We're very lucky to have the land we do to explore, and it's not wrong for people of all ability to want to access and enjoy it responsibly... But everywhere man is we've killed the environment to be there....and you can't stop that.(yes, you should minimise it)

I'm not such a good puter typer so let me know if parts of this are confusing...

[jeff]

same here makes sense to me

[Torch]

Jeff, use your best judgement...no trees cut...once a year to remove your food, not in a sensitive area... giver

I think the hardest part of this discussion is that what were seeing is that there is a lack of education and (UN)common sense...

There's no good answers...

I'm in a heavily logged area...I avoid saplings etc... and try very hard to use my (good) judgement when out in the bush...

[jeff]

ofcoarse commen sense is the ticket i aint falling trees strictly deadfalls and alota tricky manuvering i leave all the falling for my brother he falls for a liveing but we dont use his husqavarna with a four foot blade for a quad trail

[budismyhorse]

up in region 7 25 we cut a trail over 20 km over about a five year period for getting back into some secluded swamps they have ended up being some best moose hunting grounds ever i never even thought about the legal aspect

Torch, great post............Jeff posted he cut a 20 km trail to hunt moose in a remote area.........?

should we all go out and cut quad trails for 20 km to our favorite spot?

If everyone can't go out and do that.......what makes him so special that he gets to do it?

Its a selfish, "me first and screw everyone else" attitude at work there.

And I make no apologies for calling a spade a spade.

[jeff]

that 20km trail has been there for years my uncle guided off that trail for his clients and we slowly moved it deeper year after year useing google earth and budismyhorse if u dont like kiss my ASS

[jeff]

and budismyhorse selfish how can u say that u dont no me i really dont understand guys like u i got 3 teenagers so i dont get a chance to be selfish go save a tree

[Whonnock Boy]

So, if you do it slowly, that makes it ok? Phew! I was hoping someone would justify how to make it legal. :-D

[jeff]

jesus u guys should all go move to tofino lots of your kind there

[budismyhorse]

there you go getting all upset again.....and childish......and you have teenagers? Sheezus I thought YOU were a teenager! You act like it.

You never answered my question......what makes you so special?

If we all pounded trails into remote areas we'd have one big mess of a province pal.... So there are reasons why trail building is regulated.

[springpin]

so say u shot a moose back in a swamp the moose is a couple kms in the bush u going to pack it out by hand or u going to push a trail in and quad it out and then the trail aint used again till u bag another one maybe the next year or so and the only thing cut on the trail is deadfall i dont get the issue maybe its cuz i grew up in a logging town and most my family are loggers its not like every time u hunt that area u take your quad in that just wouldnt make much sense u only ever use the trail for retreival and the trai is hardly seeable every year cuz of growth and more deadfall


If your man enough to shoot the Moose a couple K out in the bush...Man up and Pack it out! I've been involved in packing out moose...It ain't easy. But, just cause you drop it a couple K in doesn't justify a new trail cut.

[budismyhorse]

If your man enough to shoot the Moose a couple K out in the bush...Man up and Pack it out! I've been involved in packing out moose...It ain't easy. But, just cause you drop it a couple K in doesn't justify a new trail cut.

No doubt......

[jeff]

listen buddy theese trails are barely vissible and i surely dont think im special so just pipe it up with that u tell me exacty what enviromentaldamage im causing by cutting a deadfall and moveing it outa my way the quad goes in then goes out wheres the damage oh maybe the nuclear plant i built back there i gotchya now

[jeff]

u guys make me sick pusses any DAY ANY TIME sick of listening to a bunch of tree huggen whiners IM OUT

[budismyhorse]

relax.

I've hugged lots of trees.......when I was putting layout ribbon around them and directing skidders and fallers which ones to cut.........

[Walksalot]

Take a look at the amount of trails the mountain bikers have constructed through out the province. There are maps showing the location of these trails and there are videos showing the mountain bikers riding these trails one can watch on the tv. There are jumps, bridges and raised platforms constructed with lumber and nails. The fact that nothing was done to curtail the mountain bike community from constructing these trails makes it hard for anyone to be prosecuted for constructing a trail of any kind. Would it not be safe to say a precedent was set when the mountain bikers were allowed to construct these trails with out any interference from any government officials.

[lunatic]

u guys make me sick pusses any DAY ANY TIME sick of listening to a bunch of tree huggen whiners IM OUT


Prozak, Zolatin, Effexor......these are just a few that MAY help you lol!

[Squamch]

Yeah, they don't build them with water control in mind. The steep sections get a long continuous rut carved in and the water follows the course all the way...........but only to the first depression or corner where it runs out.

I guess a lot has changed since I was building bike trails...but in the late 90's/early 00's, we were very concerned with run off and erosion, and would put in ladder bridges or big rocks to stay out of or over the water...in fact, that's why the whole "ladder bridge/northshore style riding was invented, digger had to get over a swamp and so he built a bridge....

And I guess no one was around for what we called the "chainsaw massacre" when the GVRD went into mt fromme and he cypress woodlot and cut all the bridges and left 'em there...I love how every user group has to be the only responsible ones...there is gov't supervision of those trails and the building of 'em. Not much, but "they" do watch.

On island4x4.com, we get quad guys bitching that we've ruined their trails by wheelin on them. Cruise over to thumpertalk and check out the dirtbikers bitching about quad guys ruining their trails. Find a horse site, I bet they're pissed at everyone. See what I'm saying here??

[Livewire322]

no but seriously the dirt bikers cause way more damage than quads.
as for Jeff the problem with your idealism is that if everyone followed your mentality and said well its only one more trail it wont hurt anything then there would be way too many trails.
and there is an erosion problem with the dirt bike trails, i dont know about you but i rarely ride a trail more than once. i scout it out in the summer and then in hunting season i drive close by and walk in. so i guess if i had to i could bring my quad into the trail and pull an animal out. If you don't think that the dirt bikes are a problem then go up to Savona, or to 3-17 by Spences bridge/ lytton.

[steel_ram]

I like single track trails. Some of the best walking, running trails are those created by Mtn. Bikes. (not my sport) Seems places where tires are spinning like buzz saws creates the most damage and then the sequence of people trying to use larger and larger vehicles.

I've seen several well praised video's where the opporater has detoured around a deep rut, and by doing so has widened the path, increasing the damage.