LEH anyone else think it's flawed?

[dudly]

I've been applying for almost 20 years with one draw total. Getting tired of their enhanced odds system. While other people get 3 to 4 draws 4 to 5 years in a row. Anyone else think there has to be a better system? :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

[KB90]

Nope, not much wrong with our system.

[bforce750]

No our system isn't flawed...we have way more opportunity than any where else..stop relying on leh draws or put in for better odds ...or just go hunt general season....another bad post....sigh....:roll:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I've been applying for almost 20 years with one draw total. Getting tired of their enhanced odds system. While other people get 3 to 4 draws 4 to 5 years in a row. Anyone else think there has to be a better system? :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

What are the odds of the draws that you typically put in for???

SSS

[winchester284]

I was waiting for this topic to come up... :-D

Is Lotto649 flawed?

[Ddog]

makes one think why does one person get a "lower odds" draw 2 or 3x and i have not got the same draw? I have put in for the same moose draw my friends have put in for at the same time at the same table and they have received it 2 out of 4 and i have not got one, what s that.
hard to say if the enhanced odds are even working. I just wish that i would get some draws i put in for, each year i always think that i have to at least get one this year, but always NIL.

[Bigbear]

I defiantly do think its Flawed. There is a Man and wife In Prince George, I know and for ten years now he has had a Bull Draw and her a cow Draw for Moose. They called the other day to Gloat about it again. I know of other type of incidences as well.

Last year I turned in a Party that were Hunting two Zones (LEH for one ) But hunting the z0one next to as well. That was for Oct 2010 502 C . they got back to me in mar 2011.. I was told that they knew who the party was because they had trouble with them the year before that 2009.
Am i missing some thing here??? They should have had their Hunting Right Pulled Period. Never mind Getting and LEH 2 years in a row.
In Williams Lake here Region 7 is only an Hour and 1/2 away, and the same for region 3 From the Horse Fly, Likely area. They both have a spike Moose season. I think you get my drift. and it does Happen.

[dudly]

I Have tried playing the odds. And with only one draw in twenty years how could I ever be relying on leh? That statement doesn't even make sense. Why is this a bad post just because I wondered what other people think? Never did I say we didn't have good general opportunity. Where did you read that?

[wsm]

i believe it is . however, i have been on the side of getting 8 draws over 3 years. as far as what would be better it's open for debate

[KB90]

lot·ter·y/ˈlätərē/Noun
A process or thing whose success or outcome is governed by chance.

Some people are luckier than others.

There is no system more fair than a lottery.

[steel_ram]

Relies too much on luck, of which not everyone has. I see no reason why a person putting in for something with 1:4 odds shouldn't be guaranteed a draw on their 5th year. Nor do I see why someone who has been successful in the same, not be given a draw more than once every 4 years. That would be a fair allocation to everyone, but of course there are those lucky individuals that don't believe in sharing. Of course it's more complicated than that, but certainly doable.

[madrona sh]

It's not flawed, I just have no luck.

[1/2 slam]

Don't get me started. Yes it is flawed.

[Brett]

Kyle I have to disagree, more "fair" would be like Albertas system. He who puts in the longest gets the draw.

[Wild one]

Don't like the system and think it needs to change but I also pull draws here and there so I can't complain too much

I think with a lot of the guys that never get drawn it is because of the odds they choose to apply for.

[308Lover]

Yes it's flawed. After 24 years with no moose or deer tags I should know. When the system was transparent and run by Fish and Wildlife, they posted hunter numbers (and names before that) along with winning entries. It seemed to show more fairness. Every time this rant of mine is posted some jackass tries to tell me about odds, luck and how to fill out a card. I'm very much in tune with this system Anyone who thinks odds are NOT stacked against northern zones has his head in a dark hole. P.S. I have NEVER committed a wildlife offence or been given a ticket. I do believe that after 24 years, it's NOT related to mathematical probability. A private outfit is doing the draw. I WANT A HUNTER/MEMBER TO BE GIVEN OBSERVER STATUS TO WATCH AND REPORT HOW THE DRAW IS DONE! (I VOLUNTEER) I got an elk draw this year because there are 800 tags and no guarantees you can even get onto private land .
These cards are sorted (somehow) and I do not believe they have the time/manpower to give second choices or accurately track who had a tag last year and should have reduced odds. One solution. No one should be allowed to APPLY for a moose or deer draw for three years after being successfully drawn.That would cut down on the nonsense of my friends getting two or three draws while I get none.
This is my yearly rant. I feel better now, but not as good as when I contact the Minister himself and the director of this draw farce.

[Tenacious Billy]

I'd rather take my chances on a lottery system and still have some of the best GO hunting in the world than go to a system like Alberta.....Put in for the same draw every year for 4 or 5 years knowing that you won't get it, but on your 6th or 7th attempt you'll get pulled......no thanks. Make alternate plans, put in for low odd hunts, do some legwork or take advantage of all the open seasons in this province.......Really though, more GOS would be aces.

[308Lover]

PS Please listen to Brett!

[barry1974w]

Most areas with point systems have gotten to the point that if you start applying for an in demand tag in your twenties, you might get to hunt sometime after you retire. But the odds get worse every year for those people who don't draw. How long do you think it would take to draw a Kamloops lake sheep permit on a points system? Our system isn't perfect. But I think it's probably about as fair as you can make it.

[houndsman]

Ithink its flawed. I usedto fall with a guy on the cost that was drawn 4 times then missed a year then drawn agan for roosevelt elk . this year is my 8th year in a row to draw a grizzly bear tag .I cant say that im not happy to get another tag but it dosent seem fair to me . I think alberta has it right

[barry1974w]

"I WANT A HUNTER/MEMBER TO BE GIVEN OBSERVER STATUS TO WATCH AND REPORT HOW THE DRAW IS DONE!"

Doesn't the B.C. wildlife federation have an observer there? I know they have had, but I'm not sure if they do every year.

[KB90]

Kyle I have to disagree, more "fair" would be like Albertas system. He who puts in the longest gets the draw.

Well I do understand where your coming from, I think it depends on what people think is "fair" ... Is it that everyone has the same opportunity or everyone gets a draw (eventually). Personally I'm okay with it the way it is, I know I have the same chance as you if we put in for the same draw, and to me that is "fair" .... Let 10 years go by without me getting a draw and I might think differently?

[Moose72]

So what is it they draw like the lottery? Your hunters number or the numbers on the top of the card?

[Ltbullken]

It's a draw, lottery, chance. I don't think the enhanced odds system is all that unfair if anything it gives people wo haven't received a draw (for certain species only like Elk and Moose I believe) more of a chance to get a draw. Other species don't have that enhanced odds system so it is possible to get a repeat draw year after year.

[Gateholio]

The major flaw of Leh is that we have too much Leh where we should have gos.

[Moose72]

Another question. After the draw and it is put out in such a hurry because of all the phone calls and emails, do they go over it again to correct THEIR mistakes?

[Geo.338]

I definitely think the system is flawed .They call it a lottery but you are penalized for winning .If BC Lotto corp tried that what would happen.I think enhanced odds should be tossed out and luck of the cards should prevail.
I think we need to increase resident GOS opportunity so we are not griping about what may be the fairest system of it's kind.
Lets face reality .Some of us will never draw that coveted Rosie Bull or Kamloops Sheep . But I am happy to get a chance to put my name in the hat .

One change I would like to see.If a group of hunters all draws tags and they deem some excess to their needs or if a hunter is unable to commit to the hunt then
he/she can give the authorization up so the next in line can get the chance.With no penalty in the next three years of course.

[moosecaller]

The system is NOT a true lottery it is already bias toward people who have not been drawn they get the "enhanced" odds so you already have a better chance than someone who has been drawn, do you think they should dispence with the draw and just hand them out to people who have not been drawn for say more than 5-6 years? Come on get over it this is a lottery and not a standard one it's bias you put in your card you take your chances nothing much in life is a guarantee except of course you know........death and more taxes. We should have more GOS rather than a money generator like the LEH if some animals need special management. The LEH is fixed already how much more do you want?

[Whonnock Boy]

First, before anyone hops on on says that I am whining, take it for what it is, a calm, cool, and collected conversation on what I would like to see happen with the LEH system. I have no reason to complain, I have been drawn for bison, and west kootenay bull elk as well as many other lower odd hunts.

There are two hunts that are sought out the most, bison, and rosie elk. I believe that if someone is drawn for either, they should not be able to apply for those hunts for a minimum of 5 years, maybe even 10.

The way that first and second choice is handled could be changed. The way that it works now, discourages hunters from applying for the higher odds hunts. When your application is drawn, if your first choice is unavailable, the second choice should also be looked at. If your card is drawn before others, why shouldn't you get your second choice before their first choice if authorizations are still available? You were drawn first. I don't believe it should go through everyones first choices, then on the second round, the second choices are looked at. Yes, this would increase the odds for a lot of the draws, but at least applicants would be inclined to enter for the draws that they would most like to receive. It would even work the other way around. Hunters that apply for those high odds draws every year without fail would then have the opportunity to get drawn for a lower odds hunt.

These two changes might counteract one another, but they may give the appearance of a system that is more fair to all who enter. Take these comments for what they are worth, barely .02 cents. :-D

[Tenacious Billy]

The system is NOT a true lottery it is already bias toward people who have not been drawn they get the "enhanced" odds so you already have a better chance than someone who has been drawn, do you think they should dispence with the draw and just hand them out to people who have not been drawn for say more than 5-6 years? Come on get over it this is a lottery and not a standard one it's bias you put in your card you take your chances nothing much in life is a guarantee except of course you know........death and more taxes. We should have more GOS rather than a money generator like the LEH if some animals need special management. The LEH is fixed already how much more do you want?

Enhanced odds is not for people who have not been drawn in the past....enhanced odds is applied to people who have had success for a particular species in previous years - theoretically reducing that persons chances of being drawn again in successive years. But I agree, people need to stop whining so much......;)

[dwflyrod]

i have never won a draw since the birth of the leh

[Fisher-Dude]

"I WANT A HUNTER/MEMBER TO BE GIVEN OBSERVER STATUS TO WATCH AND REPORT HOW THE DRAW IS DONE!"

Doesn't the B.C. wildlife federation have an observer there? I know they have had, but I'm not sure if they do every year.

BCWF participated in and auditted the full process. It passed with flying colours.

The LEH system is not flawed at all. People who think that they should get drawn for a 5:1 hunt when there is an 80% chance EVERY year with those odds of NOT being drawn are the ones with flaws.

[moosecaller]

Enhanced odds is not for people who have not been drawn in the past....enhanced odds is applied to people who have had success for a particular species in previous years - theoretically reducing that persons chances of being drawn again in successive years. But I agree, people need to stop whining so much......;)
Thanks for picking up on my error I mean they (people who have NOT been drawn get a better chance) my fingers got ahead of my thoughts? go figuire. I don't understand why people who pay the same as me for a lottery card should have better odds of being picked just because I was lucky and got a draw, now that is not fair..... apply their though process to any game of chance it's twisted... playing in a casino buddy sitting next to you wins a hand now he can't win the next hand no matter what?? that's wrong. Again I must say life is not fair.... ya place your bets ya takes your chances! now that's a fair system. Stop the whineing and get on with hunting and just be thankful that we can do that, imagine a system that would say if you shot an animal one year you couldn't hunt the next three!

[Gateholio]

Considering the huge amount of GOS in BC, a lottery style draw for the small amount of LEH we have seems to be the most fair way for everyone. That said, there are a few things that I'd like to see with our LEH system, if the world was perfect and I was in charge of it.

First, computerize/online everything, including HL's and tags. (Yes, I know some of it is coming)

that done, set up a system that maximizes opportunity and streamlines LEH. What I mean by this is that if you get drawn you will have the option to participate or pass your tag to the next guy.

For example, for every authorization, 10 hunters get drawn, and listed in order

Hunter one gets first choice on whether he wants the tag or not, and if he refuses, it goes to the next guy, and so on.

When someone confirms they want the authorization, they get billed for a tag on the spot, and either get mailed a tag or print off a voucher that they take to a sporting goods store.

This would eliminate the guys that get LEH's and decide not to go, unless they want to pay for a tag and not go.

I'd also like to see guys that are successful on high odds hunts like Rosie Elk and Bison, not be able to apply for 5 years or so. If unsuccessful in killing an animal, no restrictions.

[BiG Boar]

I'd also like to see guys that are successful on high odds hunts like Rosie Elk and Bison, not be able to apply for 5 years or so. If unsuccessful in killing an animal, no restrictions.

I agree with everything except this part. If you get drawn for a tag and are unsuccessful or don't go, you should still not be able to apply for 5 years or so.

Of course I may have a different opinion after my rosie hunt.

[Gateholio]

I agree with everything except this part. If you get drawn for a tag and are unsuccessful or don't go, you should still not be able to apply for 5 years or so.

Of course I may have a different opinion after my rosie hunt.

My feeling is that if you bought your tag and went hunting but had bad luck or ran into unforeseen circumstances, you shouldn't be penalized. If you don't even buy a tag, then you should be penalized, but if the first part of my idea was ever put into effect, that should never happen.

[bighorn]

i get drawn for a moose almost every year,anything else is a bonus.the trick,put in a group hunt where the odds are 1to1 or less,you might have to put some miles on the truck,but you'll have your tag.and most likely a moose.

[trapperRick]

Of course it is flawed but trust me you will just get insulted by some people on this site who just can't have a conversation without insulting someone who is just expressing a differant idea or approach to the LEH. I know one person who has been dissappointed for so long he gave up and quit hunting, sad. One more hunter who may not be taking his kids out hunting now, will not be passing on the hunting tradition. Bottom line it is not fair that two people put in for the same draw in the same area over a number of years and one gets many draws while the other never does.
Just my own thought on this.
PS: My son got a bull moose in 12a first time ever putting in.

[Kirby]

I defiantly do think its Flawed. There is a Man and wife In Prince George, I know and for ten years now he has had a Bull Draw and her a cow Draw for Moose. They called the other day to Gloat about it again. I know of other type of incidences as well. Sure they are drawing and not lying? and what are the odds where they draw?


Last year I turned in a Party that were Hunting two Zones (LEH for one ) But hunting the z0one next to as well. That was for Oct 2010 502 C . they got back to me in mar 2011.. I was told that they knew who the party was because they had trouble with them the year before that 2009.
Am i missing some thing here??? They should have had their Hunting Right Pulled Period. Never mind Getting and LEH 2 years in a row.
In Williams Lake here Region 7 is only an Hour and 1/2 away, and the same for region 3 From the Horse Fly, Likely area. They both have a spike Moose season. I think you get my drift. and it does Happen.

Thats enforcement not LEH different issue

[KodiakHntr]

Bottom line it is not fair that two people put in for the same draw in the same area over a number of years and one gets many draws while the other never does.


Life isn't fair. Deal with it and move on. A guy I used to work with won everything he ever entered, period. Door prizes, leh's, you name it, he won it. Thats life, some guys are lucky, some aren't.

The system isn't perfect that we have now, but its a hell of a lot better than spending money on accumulating preference points for years to come on hunts you may never get to go on. I'll take my chances on pulling a grizz or goat or rosie tag the same as everyone else every spring.

[happyhunter]

Of course it is flawed but trust me you will just get insulted by some people on this site who just can't have a conversation without insulting someone who is just expressing a differant idea or approach to the LEH. I know one person who has been dissappointed for so long he gave up and quit hunting, sad. One more hunter who may not be taking his kids out hunting now, will not be passing on the hunting tradition. Bottom line it is not fair that two people put in for the same draw in the same area over a number of years and one gets many draws while the other never does.
Just my own thought on this.
PS: My son got a bull moose in 12a first time ever putting in.

I dont understand why someone would quit hunting just because they couldn't get drawn on LEH. Every region in BC have a wide variety of species available in GOS so why not hunt those? I live in the east kootenays and for example we have GOS this fall for whitetail, muleys, cow elk, spike elk, 6 pt elk, black bear, spike fork moose, bighorn sheep, turkey, grouse etc. Thats a heck of a lot of stuff to go after without getting a draw. Every region offers quite a bit of options in GOS to give a guy something to chase is all Im saying.

[kebes]

I know one person who has been dissappointed for so long he gave up and quit hunting, sad. One more hunter who may not be taking his kids out hunting now, will not be passing on the hunting tradition.

Ever heard of a GOS? Pretty much everything in BC is on it in one place or another.

[Savage Man]

Yes very flawed but we have been down this road before and I have been told how verrrrryyyy wrong I am , That a system like Albeta and everrrry where else won't work .

[Kirby]

I know one person who has been dissappointed for so long he gave up and quit hunting, sad. One more hunter who may not be taking his kids out hunting now, will not be passing on the hunting tradition.

Sounds like a whinny kid throwing a temper tantrum. Seirously How much GOS do we have and they are gonna stop because he can't get a draw?

[Tenacious Billy]

Of course it is flawed but trust me you will just get insulted by some people on this site who just can't have a conversation without insulting someone who is just expressing a differant idea or approach to the LEH. I know one person who has been dissappointed for so long he gave up and quit hunting, sad. One more hunter who may not be taking his kids out hunting now, will not be passing on the hunting tradition. Bottom line it is not fair that two people put in for the same draw in the same area over a number of years and one gets many draws while the other never does.
Just my own thought on this.
PS: My son got a bull moose in 12a first time ever putting in.

Sounds to me like your friend probably never enjoyed hunting that much to begin with. Giving up hunting all together simply because a person never pulled an LEH draw seems a little drastic.....

It's not the LEH system his kids have to blame for never going hunting........it's their dad.

[bighornbob]

Of course it is flawed but trust me you will just get insulted by some people on this site who just can't have a conversation without insulting someone who is just expressing a differant idea or approach to the LEH. I know one person who has been dissappointed for so long he gave up and quit hunting, sad. One more hunter who may not be taking his kids out hunting now, will not be passing on the hunting tradition. Bottom line it is not fair that two people put in for the same draw in the same area over a number of years and one gets many draws while the other never does.
Just my own thought on this.
PS: My son got a bull moose in 12a first time ever putting in.

I think its unfair that half the people out there have ATV's and I dont. They can go alot of places I cant. I think if you use an ATV one year you cant the next. That would be fair in my book.

See where I am going with this. Like others have said life is not fair, one guys works his ass off and get paid minimum wage while the next guy hardley works and makes 100,000 a year etc etc etc.

BHB

[moosinaround]

I think there should be more general open seasons. Use the LEH as a tool, give managers the ability to use it where they deem necessary. Do not use it as a political bargaining chip to appease specific user groups!!! Science should be used to manage our resource. GOS, LEH, and closed seasons are all tools that should be used where scientific data collected by professional, ethical practitioners need to use them. I don't mind buying a lottery ticket to hunt a species, if I don't win I hunt somewhere that has a GOS. I drew a Bison tag this year, first time in 16 years, once in a lifetime hunt for me, and that is fine! I don't need to hunt bison every year, but moose I do! If I don't have a LEH, I will go to where there is a moose season. Moosin

[boxhitch]

For example, for every authorization, 10 hunters get drawn, and listed in order

Hunter one gets first choice on whether he wants the tag or not, and if he refuses, it goes to the next guy, and so on.

When someone confirms they want the authorization, they get billed for a tag on the spot, and either get mailed a tag or print off a voucher that they take to a sporting goods store.

This would eliminate the guys that get LEH's and decide not to go, unless they want to pay for a tag and not go.

The flaw there is in the timing of the decision making. If the list of ten is worked through at the time of the draw only. most everyong still has desire to go on the hunt they applied for and would buy the tag. Its what goes on in the time up to the hunt that determines if a guy can go or not.

[Weatherby Fan]

Of course it is flawed but trust me you will just get insulted by some people on this site who just can't have a conversation without insulting someone who is just expressing a differant idea or approach to the LEH. I know one person who has been dissappointed for so long he gave up and quit hunting, sad. One more hunter who may not be taking his kids out hunting now, will not be passing on the hunting tradition. Bottom line it is not fair that two people put in for the same draw in the same area over a number of years and one gets many draws while the other never does.
Just my own thought on this.
PS: My son got a bull moose in 12a first time ever putting in.

Trapperrick
dont take this the wrong way but your pal quitting hunting because you don't get an LEH draw is like saying Im quitting work because I didnt win 6/49 for the last 20 yrs
Hunter's should never plan a hunt around a LEH draw,we plan our hunting trips, pick LEH draws that coincide timing wise with our GOS hunting if you get the LEH tags it's a bonus.
We in BC have the best GOS in North America if not worldwide so we should consider ourselves lucky,again I just treat the LEH as a bonus.

[cloverphil]

I've gone 3-6 in the last 2 years

[behemoth]

Considering the huge amount of GOS in BC, a lottery style draw for the small amount of LEH we have seems to be the most fair way for everyone. That said, there are a few things that I'd like to see with our LEH system, if the world was perfect and I was in charge of it.

First, computerize/online everything, including HL's and tags. (Yes, I know some of it is coming)

that done, set up a system that maximizes opportunity and streamlines LEH. What I mean by this is that if you get drawn you will have the option to participate or pass your tag to the next guy.

For example, for every authorization, 10 hunters get drawn, and listed in order

Hunter one gets first choice on whether he wants the tag or not, and if he refuses, it goes to the next guy, and so on.

When someone confirms they want the authorization, they get billed for a tag on the spot, and either get mailed a tag or print off a voucher that they take to a sporting goods store.

This would eliminate the guys that get LEH's and decide not to go, unless they want to pay for a tag and not go.

I'd also like to see guys that are successful on high odds hunts like Rosie Elk and Bison, not be able to apply for 5 years or so. If unsuccessful in killing an animal, no restrictions.

Great suggestions, I like the passing on of the tag ONLY if the ministry does it and you couldnt give it to whoever you want. this would avoid black market tags

Also I think that some tags should be good for 2 years. This would be for areas that have low success rates and difficult access. (read "goat") I think allot of these people that go on these types of hunts arent successful but they would be if they went again after learning the area.

[yukon john]

BCWF participated in and auditted the full process. It passed with flying colours.

The LEH system is not flawed at all. People who think that they should get drawn for a 5:1 hunt when there is an 80% chance EVERY year with those odds of NOT being drawn are the ones with flaws.
good stuff fisher-dude, there is no cosmic force trying to screw people over here, grow up guys sometimes you win sometimes you lose

[Gateholio]

The flaw there is in the timing of the decision making. If the list of ten is worked through at the time of the draw only. most everyong still has desire to go on the hunt they applied for and would buy the tag. Its what goes on in the time up to the hunt that determines if a guy can go or not.

Not a flaw if it's computerized. Draw is done and results posted. You have x amount of days to respond YES and then it goes to the next guy. People would have to be on top of it, but it could work.

If you buy the tag and then break your leg a week before the trip, there could be a provision to refund your money and offer it to the next guy, see if he wants it. I'm just giving a general concept here that could work, I am sure details like this could be worked out.

Possibly only have this system for draws over 10-1 or whatever.


Great suggestions, I like the passing on of the tag ONLY if the ministry does it and you couldnt give it to whoever you want. this would avoid black market tags

Also I think that some tags should be good for 2 years. This would be for areas that have low success rates and difficult access. (read "goat") I think allot of these people that go on these types of hunts arent successful but they would be if they went again after learning the area.

It would HAVE to be run by the ministry, for sure.

[Gateholio]

Bottom line it is not fair[/U] that two people put in for the same draw in the same area over a number of years and one gets many draws while the other never does.
.

Wow, he sounds like a real loser.

I am one of those people that has not had great LEH luck. I've got a handful (like 4 or 5) draws from about 100 applications. I've never, ever shot an animal using an LEH authorization, either. (Although I did have a spectacular miss :) )

However every year I manage to have a successful hunting season and enjoy myself immensely. This is because of BC's liberal GOS and accompanying friends on their LEH hunts, and I enjoy both. If I never ever get another LEH I will still hunt every year.

[trapperRick]

Considering the huge amount of GOS in BC, a lottery style draw for the small amount of LEH we have seems to be the most fair way for everyone. That said, there are a few things that I'd like to see with our LEH system, if the world was perfect and I was in charge of it.

First, computerize/online everything, including HL's and tags. (Yes, I know some of it is coming)

that done, set up a system that maximizes opportunity and streamlines LEH. What I mean by this is that if you get drawn you will have the option to participate or pass your tag to the next guy.

For example, for every authorization, 10 hunters get drawn, and listed in order

Hunter one gets first choice on whether he wants the tag or not, and if he refuses, it goes to the next guy, and so on.

When someone confirms they want the authorization, they get billed for a tag on the spot, and either get mailed a tag or print off a voucher that they take to a sporting goods store.

This would eliminate the guys that get LEH's and decide not to go, unless they want to pay for a tag and not go.

I'd also like to see guys that are successful on high odds hunts like Rosie Elk and Bison, not be able to apply for 5 years or so. If unsuccessful in killing an animal, no restrictions.


I Like it

[moosinaround]

Wow, he sounds like a real loser.

I am one of those people that has not had great LEH luck. I've got a handful (like 4 or 5) draws from about 100 applications. I've never, ever shot an animal using an LEH authorization, either. (Although I did have a spectacular miss :) )

However every year I manage to have a successful hunting season and enjoy myself immensely. This is because of BC's liberal GOS and accompanying friends on their LEH hunts, and I enjoy both. If I never ever get another LEH I will still hunt every year.
Me too! I hunt for the meat, but I donot rely on the meat to survive. If I don't get a LEH, I hunt a GOS somewhere! Usaully always have wild game in my freezer every year. Been skunked maybe 5 years out of 17 years whaen it comes to wild game in my freezer. Get out and explore the province, it is a beautiful place!!! Moosin

[trapperRick]

I just passed what he told me on, I said all those things to him

don't shoot the messenger

[Gateholio]

Not shooting you, but a guy that quits because he doesn't get an LEH is a loser, or was expecting hunting to be easy.

[Darksith]

I like the idea of people not being able to apply for a certain hunts that are extremely high odds, but that would only apply to a very few hunts. That being said I have no problem with the system as it is now, and I have only ever been drawn for hunts that were less than 1-1 odds, and this is ongoing for the last 19 years. For all the other guys that say they simply don't get pulled for x amount of years, but none of them are willing to say where they are putting in for. If your putting in for somewhere that is 12-1, or 20-1 you might want to rethink your strategy. Get into shared hunts, go for places that have less than 1-1 odds. Yes that might mean you need to drive to the other end of the province, but who cares, honestly those are the best hunts IMO. Get a wall tent, a few buddies and giver, you'll never have as much fun as that I promise you. If you aren't willing to do that, or your pissed that you didn't get the rosi draw or the kamloops sheep draw or a bison well guess what, me either and its been 19 years, but I still go hunting every year, I still bag an animal, and why is a rosi so sought after? Simply b/c its a couple hours from your house, or not on the other side of the province? Get out there, get into GOS. Get moving, but I do agree that some draws maybe should be changed how they operate, rosi, bison, sheep thats it. If you are complaining that you haven't got a mulie draw...where the f are you putting in? Seriously...

[dana]

I believe too many people are comparing apples to oranges when they look over the fence to Alberta. Which are species are you comparing. Yes they get priority points and know that in 2 or 3 years they will get a deer tag. Sooo what. We know we can have 3 deer tags each and every year!!!! Look at their mountain goat draw. What is it, something like 10 tags for the entire province. Here we have both GOS and LEH on goats. Many many goat tags at 2:1 or undersubscribed. And yet we have hunters who put in for those high 5:1 or 10:1 tags and bitch that they never get drawn. You want to hunt goats, go hunt goats. There are lots of GOS goat hunts in this province. What are Albertas priority wait on moose? Here we have GOS and LEH. Again many units are 2:1 or less. You don't get drawn, you still have Spike/Fork in the south or open bulls in the north. Lots of opportunity to hunt moose every year if you want to. Yet guys bitch because they haven't been drawn a 30:1 tag in the last 20 years. Those that don't ever get drawn are lying to ya. They are consistantly putting in for higher odds hunts and then bitching about not getting drawn. Sure some people have $hitty luck, but not most. I've had a muley doe tag every year for the last 8 years. Am I lucky? HELL NO! I put in for very very low odds hunts. 1.5:1 or even undersubscribed. No luck there. I put in for units most guys don't want to hunt because the hunting is very very hard. It is easy to draw a tag in many units in this province. Killing a critter with those tags is the hard part.

[greenhorn]

Ithink its flawed. I usedto fall with a guy on the cost that was drawn 4 times then missed a year then drawn agan for roosevelt elk . this year is my 8th year in a row to draw a grizzly bear tag .I cant say that im not happy to get another tag but it dosent seem fair to me . I think alberta has it right

That's F-ing nuts..... 5 draws for rosie elk!!! I can't believe it!!

[Ambush]

I got nothing again this year. I usualy put in 4 - 7 cards per year since LEH started, and most years I get nothing.

It makes me mad for about five minutes after I check the results. Then I go about planning and getting excited about my hunting season.

Some people are very lucky and others have no luck.

[Marc]

I've managed my first moose draw since I moved to BC in 2003, the only other LEH I managed to pull besides that one was a doe draw back in 2007. Has it stoped me from getting off the island every other year or so? Hell no, it's all about the adventure and new places to see. I love hunting in other peoples back yards and eating all their baby animals.:mrgreen:

[ROEBUCK]

Im generally quite a lucky person
will win money at the casino,horses
win raffles without investing much
but the LEH is another matter ,my luck there sucks, but again we have generous hunting in open season
so it aint all bad

[GreatWhitePopogeebo]

hell yeah its flawed its all based on luck slap in a point system of some kind so when people actually get a draw they go and if they dont oh well back of the line i know a guy a work puts in then throws them in the garbage so guys like us dont go thats brutal it would b nice to know that in our life time we can pursue our dream animal sheep goat elk deer whatever the case drives a guy nuts im getting pissed just typing need a beer

[lloydster]

heard a rumor that tree huggers, leaf lickers and antis get their hunter number get a draw and dont even hunt let alone buy license. any truth or just fishing? ten years without a moose draw!!!!!!! group hunts n all!

[Sitkaspruce]

Considering the huge amount of GOS in BC, a lottery style draw for the small amount of LEH we have seems to be the most fair way for everyone. That said, there are a few things that I'd like to see with our LEH system, if the world was perfect and I was in charge of it.

First, computerize/online everything, including HL's and tags. (Yes, I know some of it is coming)

that done, set up a system that maximizes opportunity and streamlines LEH. What I mean by this is that if you get drawn you will have the option to participate or pass your tag to the next guy.

For example, for every authorization, 10 hunters get drawn, and listed in order

Hunter one gets first choice on whether he wants the tag or not, and if he refuses, it goes to the next guy, and so on.

When someone confirms they want the authorization, they get billed for a tag on the spot, and either get mailed a tag or print off a voucher that they take to a sporting goods store.

This would eliminate the guys that get LEH's and decide not to go, unless they want to pay for a tag and not go.

I'd also like to see guys that are successful on high odds hunts like Rosie Elk and Bison, not be able to apply for 5 years or so. If unsuccessful in killing an animal, no restrictions.

I like it Gates except for the the if you do not need the tag and the last one.

There has to be a good time line between the LEH drawn and the guy turning it down. A buddy of mine is over in Europe working (one month on, one off) and he found out through the computer that he has a moose tag and will be able to hunt it. If you went with the notification system, we would have to make sure we have email and other ways to communicate with the lucky guy....other wise he would lose it if they could not get a hold of him.

The last one, I like, but I could see it being a cost because there would have to be a manual check to see if they were lucky and some people simply would not say anything if they did get something....lots of reporting on that one.

To all those who think it is unfair, there is a simple answer to that....STOP PUTTING IN FOR IT, SAVE YOUR $$$$ AND HUNT THE GOS.

man I just cannot see the reason to complain....LEH is a bonus to hunting GOS in this province....if you plan your season with LEH, you are missing out on some of the best hunting in the world!!!!

Keep LEH!!!!!

Cheers

SS

[brksey]

Can someone explain how odds change in a shared or group situation. There were three of us that put in for a shared moose hunt in wich the odds were 3 to 1 and low and behold no tags. We were under the assumption that we went in as individual entries but we would only receive 2 tags, wouldn't that make the odds 1 to 1 or am i off here?

[SR80]

Same old posts every year on this site after the leh draws are run.

[ROEBUCK]

Can someone explain how odds change in a shared or group situation. There were three of us that put in for a shared moose hunt in wich the odds were 3 to 1 and low and behold no tags. We were under the assumption that we went in as individual entries but we would only receive 2 tags, wouldn't that make the odds 1 to 1 or am i off here?
yes your off
if its 3-1 then you could pick a unsuccessfull number every throw if your unlucky

[Boner]

I got nothing again this year. I usualy put in 4 - 7 cards per year since LEH started, and most years I get nothing.

It makes me mad for about five minutes after I check the results. Then I go about planning and getting excited about my hunting season.

Some people are very lucky and others have no luck.

Very well stated. I wish everyone had the same reaction to that kind of news.

[brksey]

I think i get it ,each of the guys in my group has 3 to 1 odds, but there are 3 of us applying so if one of us hits it in the 3 to 1 odds we all benefit , or something like that. Anyway no biggie all for a good cause time to concentrate on the GOS. cheers...

[Gateholio]

I like it Gates except for the the if you do not need the tag and the last one.

There has to be a good time line between the LEH drawn and the guy turning it down. A buddy of mine is over in Europe working (one month on, one off) and he found out through the computer that he has a moose tag and will be able to hunt it. If you went with the notification system, we would have to make sure we have email and other ways to communicate with the lucky guy....other wise he would lose it if they could not get a hold of him.

Again,that comes down to details. The first guy drawn shoudl have priority, and they could be allowed up to a month or even more to decide to take or refuse the authorization. Then it can go down the line. Sure, it may not leave much time for a guy to prep for a hunt, but someone on the list is going to say "sure, I can do it" and take the tag. At the very least, it's a chance that he wouldn't have had under the current system.


The last one, I like, but I could see it being a cost because there would have to be a manual check to see if they were lucky and some people simply would not say anything if they did get something....lots of reporting on that one.


I think that there is already compulsary reporting on the high odds hunts like Rosie elk and bison? Certainly there is with sheep.

[wos]

I always saw the leh as something extra that you cant ordinarily hunt so for me Its sort of just a gimme hunt if i don't get one I take advantage of a gos. If i get a doe draw the pressure is off and I can focus more on antler than filling the freezer.

[GreatWhitePopogeebo]

To say don't apply cause u think it's unfair is bs were just stating our opinion hell lifes not fair but we go on system is flawed I've benefited lots from it doesn't mean it's ok little more fair for next guy is all

[CanuckShooter]

Not shooting you, but a guy that quits because he doesn't get an LEH is a loser, or was expecting hunting to be easy.


You shouldn't be so quick to judge....he may not have the luxury of being able to travel to where there is a GOS...he may be restricted by finances and or health reasons...he may only hunt one species, maybe his time available for hunting is severly limited?? You just don't know enough of the variables to justify calling someone a loser for quitting. Your bad...imo. ;-)

[Glassman]

I the last 4 years Junior #1 has got zippo and Junior #2 gets something every year. I get 1 every 2nd year. We all put in the same every year.

[1899]

Just a bit of interesting probabilities for those who may be interested. Lets say you put in for 5 draws, the odds are 1:5 (moose), 1:8 (doe muley), 1:10 (caibou), 1:25 (elk) and 1:25 (bison).

What are the odds of getting 1 draw out of the 5? You add all of the probabilities - 1/5 + 1/8 + 1/10 + 1/25 + 1/25 = 0.505, or basically 50-50 (better than 50% cance of getting one draw).

What are the odds of getting all of the draws? Multiply the probabilities - 1/5 * 1/8 * 1/10 * 1/25 * 1/25 = 0.000004, or 1 in 250,000. For comparison, matching 5/6 numbers in the 6/49 is 1 in 55,492.

So, if you put in for the above noted LEH, you should, on average, get one draw every other year. What are the odds of going 5 years without drawing a single tag in that scenario? There is roughly a 1:2 chance of drawing a tag, so there is the same chance of not drawing a tag.

Then we do the math - 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/32 = 1 in 32 chance of not getting a draw in that time. For 10 years it would be a 1 in 1024, or roughly the same as drawing the Kamloops sheep tag!

[kuiu]

Can we agree to dissagree, and move on from all the LEH crap???? Every year its the same thing over and over again until sheep season starts. Lets not talk about this anymore, and get back to the important stuff like how we need to get rid of Lou....

[CanuckShooter]

Just a bit of interesting probabilities for those who may be interested. Lets say you put in for 5 draws, the odds are 1:5 (moose), 1:8 (doe muley), 1:10 (caibou), 1:25 (elk) and 1:25 (bison).

What are the odds of getting 1 draw out of the 5? You add all of the probabilities - 1/5 + 1/8 + 1/10 + 1/25 + 1/25 = 0.505, or basically 50-50 (better than 50% cance of getting one draw).

What are the odds of getting all of the draws? Multiply the probabilities - 1/5 * 1/8 * 1/10 * 1/25 * 1/25 = 0.000004, or 1 in 250,000. For comparison, matching 5/6 numbers in the 6/49 is 1 in 55,492.

So, if you put in for the above noted LEH, you should, on average, get one draw every other year. What are the odds of going 5 years without drawing a single tag in that scenario? There is roughly a 1:2 chance of drawing a tag, so there is the same chance of not drawing a tag.

Then we do the math - 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/32 = 1 in 32 chance of not getting a draw in that time. For 10 years it would be a 1 in 1024, or roughly the same as drawing the Kamloops sheep tag!

Probabilities have nothing to do with the LEH draws....and neither do enhanced odds that everyone keeps touting...there are people that are LUCKY and there are those that are UNLUCKY...plain and simple. THE absolute best idea put forward so far was from Gatehouse....get rid of most of the LEHs that we don't need......

You still want to play with the math...do one on the lady I know that drew, bull moose 7-10.....4 out of 5 consecutive years....apparently with 'enhanced odds' working against her!! While that guy way back on post #16 is still waiting after over 20 years to get one in the same zone!!!

[sheephunter17]

Seems like alot of guys don't understand the Alberta system. Sure we have alot of animals on draw but there's just as many GOS. I can't think of an animal that isn't a GOS other than goat, antelope, and bison. I know that I can shoot a deer, elk, moose, sheep what have you every year but I can also guarantee myself a chance at this same animals in "trophy" zones. To me a guarantee beats a chance everytime!

[Gateholio]

You shouldn't be so quick to judge....he may not have the luxury of being able to travel to where there is a GOS...he may be restricted by finances and or health reasons...he may only hunt one species, maybe his time available for hunting is severly limited?? You just don't know enough of the variables to justify calling someone a loser for quitting. Your bad...imo. ;-)

Maybe I was too quick to call him a loser.

He's actually a whining, crybaby loser that wants life handed to him on a plate.

[1899]

Maybe I was too quick to call him a loser.

He's actually a whining, crybaby loser that wants life handed to him on a plate.

Wow, lots of love in that post! :)

[ryanb]

It's a lottery! Some get lucky , some don't. I personally like it the way it is. Everyone has an equal chance whether you been putting in for 50 years or one (unless on reduced odds)...just the way a LOTTERY should be. The main problem is that most people don't understand odds and figure if they put in for a 1/4 draw they should get it every four years...WRONG.

Leave it the way it is

[goatdancer]

Some of the ideas kicked around here will do nothing but complicate the system. The Alberta system works for us non-residents that need a hunter host. I don't think we need to change our LEH draw even though I haven't got my moose draw for quite a few years now.

[Lillypuff]

I put in for lousy odds yearly for moose and I never get drawn I do not even get excited how can you when you know your chances are 25 to 1 and guess what I have never been drawn no bitch here. However spring grizz 5 to 1, I get excited but never get drawn oh well maybe next year. I will just have to take advantage of our general season and whack a wiener whitetail in a different region and I still have 2 deer tags that really bites. Hell I might even get lucky and get in on another 6 point bull this year. Alberta is great 1 and done when it comes to deer boy do you have to be picky when you think about pulling the trigger on a 150 whitetail. Nah let him live hold on for the monster 165 plus. I have moose in the freezer got drawn 6 out of 6 years.

[pg83]

I haven't read anything in this thread besides the original post.

Of course our system is flawed, nothing in this world is perfect. That said, we are miles ahead of anywhere else I know of with regards to our hunting options. We are lucky enough to live in a province that has a variety of wildlife matched only by certain areas of Africa. We have general open season for almost all of the species available to hunt in our province. We have tons of options with regards to our LEH system. Yes, there are a number of draws that you will realistically never win, but we can all be assured of drawing every species in the province at some point in our life besides maybe a Rosie or a Buffalo by choosing the right draw. There are low odds draws for everything. Our system is completely fair as far as I am aware. It doesn't matter if you are broke or rich, if you can afford $50 a year you have the same odds as everyone else. If you can't afford $50 a year for leh cards the only hunting you are doing is off your back porch anyways.

[CanuckShooter]

I agree with Gatehouse........we don't need LEH for so many species in so many MUs....get rid of the ones that are not necessary and have more general open seasons......especially for the bread and butter species, moose/elk/deer......

[BCrams]

I put in for lousy odds yearly for moose and I never get drawn I do not even get excited how can you when you know your chances are 25 to 1 and guess what I have never been drawn no bitch here. However spring grizz 5 to 1, I get excited but never get drawn oh well maybe next year. I will just have to take advantage of our general season and whack a wiener whitetail in a different region and I still have 2 deer tags that really bites. Hell I might even get lucky and get in on another 6 point bull this year. Alberta is great 1 and done when it comes to deer boy do you have to be picky when you think about pulling the trigger on a 150 whitetail. Nah let him live hold on for the monster 165 plus. I have moose in the freezer got drawn 6 out of 6 years.

You put in for moose draws in Alberta and then go hunt moose there? You do know there's good moose hunting in Northern BC with no draw required on any bulls in BC?

[dana]

Seems like alot of guys don't understand the Alberta system. Sure we have alot of animals on draw but there's just as many GOS. I can't think of an animal that isn't a GOS other than goat, antelope, and bison. I know that I can shoot a deer, elk, moose, sheep what have you every year but I can also guarantee myself a chance at this same animals in "trophy" zones. To me a guarantee beats a chance everytime!

So can you shoot 3 trophy muleys a year every year???? Again comparing apples and oranges. We can guarantee ourselves a chance in trophy areas just by hunting GOS with over the counter tags. And the variety of species that BC has compared to Alberta, come on now. There is no comparison now is there? If you want Alberta hunting, apply for there. Buy a non-resident licence and get a hunter host. The fact is if you do that, you will be leaving the most game rich jurisdiction in North America to hunt a sub-par province.

[Lillypuff]

You put in for moose draws in Alberta and then go hunt moose there? You do know there's good moose hunting in Northern BC with no draw required on any bulls in BC
Nah I lived there for 6 years

[dana]

You put in for moose draws in Alberta and then go hunt moose there? You do know there's good moose hunting in Northern BC with no draw required on any bulls in BC?

And then open the pages of the Boone and Crocket Record Book and see where the vast majority of Booner Canada's come from. They ain't coming from Alberta. They are coming from BC, in units that are GOS. ;)

[happyhunter]

hell yeah its flawed its all based on luck slap in a point system of some kind so when people actually get a draw they go and if they dont oh well back of the line i know a guy a work puts in then throws them in the garbage so guys like us dont go thats brutal it would b nice to know that in our life time we can pursue our dream animal sheep goat elk deer whatever the case drives a guy nuts im getting pissed just typing need a beer

Those dream animals are all available in a GOS. There isn't much in this province that isn't.

And tell that guy u work with to quit that shit, how much does he spend yearly just to keep guys out of a certain area? Your coworker must be a real shitty hunter with deep pockets if he can't deal with a few other people going after the same animals as him.

[hunter1947]

Most of the system works well as far as I am concerned the only problem I have with the system hunters getting repeat draws they have to fix this problem so they the ones that got picked for that year will not have a chance at getting another draw for the same species till 5 years has gone by ,they are the experts let them figure it out on how to stop repeat draws..

[gitnadoix]

The only problem with the LEH draw is the prize is too much like "crack" to the waiting hunters, they come up with all sorts of conspiracy therories etc etc when they dont win. I have been trying for a moose draw for 15 years at an average of 5 to 1 and got it once. It seems most on here would say that at those odds I should be sure of getting it every 5 years.....wrong because a lottery has no memory much like a coin......flip a coin if it comes up heads, what are the odds the next flip will be heads as well.............wait for it.................50/50......

The draw has all been explained many times in such publications as BC out doors etc we have the best territory in North America to hunt in.....if your still complaining.....get some help to get off the "crack"

[CanuckShooter]

Most of the system works well as far as I am concerned the only problem I have with the system hunters getting repeat draws they have to fix this problem so they the ones that got picked for that year will not have a chance at getting another draw for the same species till 5 years has gone by ,they are the experts let them figure it out on how to stop repeat draws..

I would agree with you for 'same species/same MU'.....the very least it should be impossible to draw the same species in the same MU year after year after year......spread the wealth as they say.

[Fisher-Dude]

Probabilities have nothing to do with the LEH draws....

That right there is some funny shit!

People need to know this, and understand this conclusion from the LEH Review:

It does not matter which type of system we have for the LEH draw (priority, points, random, etc). Your odds of killing a (moose, elk, bison, samsquantch, etc) is not determined by the type of draw, but rather it is determined by the annual allowable harvest of that class of animals.

Changing the type of draw will do absolutely nothing to increase your chance of harvesting a given class of animal. Only changing the annual allowable harvest will. Period.

[Gateholio]

The only problem with the LEH draw is the prize is too much like "crack" to the waiting hunters, they come up with all sorts of conspiracy therories etc etc when they dont win.

The draw has all been explained many times in such publications as BC out doors etc we have the best territory in North America to hunt in.....if your still complaining.....get some help to get off the "crack"

SO true....I find it incredible how people can moan and sulk when they don't get a LEH. It must be something ingrained in some people's psyche that causes them to lose sight of the big picture and focus on something that is truly a small part of hunting opportunity in BC.

[Tenacious Billy]

hell yeah its flawed its all based on luck slap in a point system of some kind so when people actually get a draw they go and if they dont oh well back of the line i know a guy a work puts in then throws them in the garbage so guys like us dont go thats brutal it would b nice to know that in our life time we can pursue our dream animal sheep goat elk deer whatever the case drives a guy nuts im getting pissed just typing need a beer

Every animal you mentioned in this post is available in GOS in many parts of the province, so if it's your dream animal - go get it. That guy you work with sounds like an idiot.

[moosecaller]

This "lottery" is not a true lottery as it stands, it has been "fixed" to give a group of people a better chance of winning.....and yet you still complain again let me repeat what more do you want? The "lottery " was fixed because of whiners and you still whine; didn't somebody in your past tell you life isn't fair some win some lose accept it! Is it really "fair " as the word says to handicap a person so that another person could have a greater chance of winning? Maybe it's how the draw is labelled "lottery" change the name to something more appropriate to what it acutually is "a fixed draw"? I don't think anything would work because in a draw system some will win some won't nothing will make everyone happy.
Go out and enjoy the GOS enjoy the bush enjoy the fact that you can get out, spend time with a loved one this time will pass and all you will be left with is memories (miss you Dad) just don't let them be bitter memories of not getting a draw.....really there are much more important things to fixate on.

[jetboat jim]

would be better to see , if you get a draw your name gets pulled till all others get at least 1 draw. there is no need for some guys to get 2 or 3 draws and some get none.

this would make for better usage of the hunting draws.

I have a friend with 3 draws, different times and different areas and limited funds......can he hunt all the draws he recieved ?

[6 K]

It is A LOTTERY if you don't get it suck it up.
If you like Alberta's system better, move there and get out of my system.
Not haveing a chance at a second draw in five years is STUPID BEYOND IMAGINATION.
The problem with our enhanced odds is it does not enhance anything only penalizes.
It was only ever put in place to try to apease the whiners.
If a change is needed it is to go back to one application one chance. No exceptions. No age restrictions or other bull crap.
Pay your money, take your chance or don't, either way........suck it up and shut up already.

And no I am not one of those with the horseshoes up where the sun don't shine. I've put in for bison since it came out in 92 and I have yet to see a autherization. My name will be in the hat again next year.

[1899]

The only problem with the LEH draw is the prize is too much like "crack" to the waiting hunters, they come up with all sorts of conspiracy therories etc etc when they dont win. I have been trying for a moose draw for 15 years at an average of 5 to 1 and got it once. It seems most on here would say that at those odds I should be sure of getting it every 5 years.....wrong because a lottery has no memory much like a coin......flip a coin if it comes up heads, what are the odds the next flip will be heads as well.............wait for it.................50/50......

The draw has all been explained many times in such publications as BC out doors etc we have the best territory in North America to hunt in.....if your still complaining.....get some help to get off the "crack"

Yes the odds are 50/50 if you look at it without considering the past result, but the odds of getting heads two times in a row is NOT 50/50. The odds of getting heads three times in a row is NOT 50/50. Contrary to a previous post probabilities DO have something to do with the LEH draw. Assume that the system is NOT flawed: Is it possible to get the same 10:1 draw three times? Yes, but the probability of that happening is very low. Is it possible to not get drawn on a 2:1 draw for three years in a row? Yes, but the odds of that are also very low.

My point is this, and again assume that the system is not flawed: a few people out of the thousands will get drawn several times in a row, or get multiple draws, a few people out of the thousands will not get drawn for many years, but most will fall into a fairly clustered range as predicted by the math.

[Gr8 white hunter]

Ya if your not a lodge member your screwed.and you know what lodge i'm talking about.

[moosecaller]

Ya if your not a lodge member your screwed.and you know what lodge i'm talking about.
No I don't know what lodge you are talking about please fill me and the others in on this and give names and examples of your evidence of this lodge? Just the facts ....just the facts! If you have something concrete to add then by all means do it, help to clarify this for us.

[Barracuda]

http://youtu.be/dSpOjj4YD8c

[Livewire322]

i believe that its fine but you just need to try and go for the places with better odds. ive gotten 4 draws been hunting for 6 years

[40incher]

I agree with 6 K. Our system penalizes rather than enhances.

I also believe it is flawed. There is little effort made to ensure our BC resident allocations are achieved over the short or long term. The bureaucrats need to remember that LEH is a restriction, not an allocation. Putting out 1000's of LEH's means nothing if we are not achieving our allocated harvest. Peace Region LEH elk is a good example where we should be on GOS, not LEH.

There has also been little effort made to be innovative to get our harvest up without putting out 10 or more LEH's per each available animal. If we as hunters are serious about actually putting in the effort on a remote and difficult hunt then putting up your license and tag fee up fron (license and tag to be mailed to you when an LEH is drawn, or refunded if not) should be required. We would end up needing less LEH's per animal (less risk) and would have a chance at achieving our allocations on a consistent basis (higher utilization).

A few examples where LEH is not working are: Edziza sheep, Spatsizi (all five species), Atlin sheep, most remote grizzly hunts and mtn. goat hunts. And the list goes on.

The bottom line is that it is easier to leave things the same, even when other viable options are there. That's our bureaucracy "at work".

[emerson]

Democracy sucks too, it's just better than most of the alternatives. If there is no engagement the sport will wither and die (because of not enough voters being hunters). If everyone has some kind of chance many will try, if they know there is almost no chance then they recreate in another way and anyone left will become a marginalized minority.

[GreatWhitePopogeebo]

What a lame comeback u dont like dont apply so not right. Is it flawed YES or no? How does it need improving. Im the last one to complain i guess i have alot of horseshoes but it doest make it right. I agree some take this topic a go on a rant about nada anyways diff strokes fo diff folks.

[FirePower]

I have to say I've been very lucky over the years, however I do put in for a lot of difficult access draw areas. I have heard it bandied about that perhaps a successfull draw should proclude you from that species or at least that area for the following year. It would deffinately open the odds up a bit, and I'm not sure I would be all that put out IF it was implimented. That being said for as long as the system we have is in place I will continue to put in for what I want regardless of my sucess rate and take what they "give" me. "IS LOTTO 649 FLAWED?" Great quote and question lol would gladly "transfer" some of my LEH luck to "The Big One"

[dana]

So I get muley doe draws that are undersubscribed and some of you think I should be penalized so that I don't receive any other draws? How fair is that? I take the hit and get a tag in hard to harvest areas and I shouldn't recieve another draw if luck were to go my way on some of the higher odds hunts I apply for???? A guy only needs one LEH eh? I can tell you from a ton of experience, some draws are more a curse than a blessing.

[buford19]

Not sure if its flawed, but this is what I would like see happen. First no more cards, submitt limited entry on line and pay with visa or pay pal. Nexts after the draw is run, and you are successful, you would automatically be charged the tag fee for each winning entry. This would eliminate those people who treat the draw like it's christmas, but don't have any intentions on pursuing all the game they put in for. For hunters that are serious about filling a particular tag, your odds would go up dramatically. Just tired of people calling themselfs hunters, when they are more like Greenpiecer. What do you think?

[GreatWhitePopogeebo]

Amen thank you I like it going to zzzz now

[Ltbullken]

Relies too much on luck, of which not everyone has. I see no reason why a person putting in for something with 1:4 odds shouldn't be guaranteed a draw on their 5th year. Nor do I see why someone who has been successful in the same, not be given a draw more than once every 4 years. That would be a fair allocation to everyone, but of course there are those lucky individuals that don't believe in sharing. Of course it's more complicated than that, but certainly doable.


That's why there is an enhanced odds system. You get lucky for some species then you're disadvantaged. for the next few years Chance is merely chance. It is not a guarantee that you will get drawn. By theory, if you flip a coin, exactly 50% of the time, heads will come up. If you flip it 3 times and get heads each time, you can't argue that definintely the next flip will be tails because it's due. Chance does not work that way. People who complain about the neighbour who keeps coming up with a draw should dig deeper and ask what draws they are putting in for. If the odds are 0.5:1 you'll get the draw everytime. Or we go to a system that totally removes you from the LEH if you have a successful draw. I would not like that.

[Darksith]

Not sure if its flawed, but this is what I would like see happen. First no more cards, submitt limited entry on line and pay with visa or pay pal. Nexts after the draw is run, and you are successful, you would automatically be charged the tag fee for each winning entry. This would eliminate those people who treat the draw like it's christmas, but don't have any intentions on pursuing all the game they put in for. For hunters that are serious about filling a particular tag, your odds would go up dramatically. Just tired of people calling themselfs hunters, when they are more like Greenpiecer. What do you think?

I don't think being charged a tag fee would eliminate anything. I don't think there are many people out there that are putting in for a specific draw knowing they never intend to go on that hunt (sans the antis). I also don't think there are many people that put in for everything at the same time, so the hunts would conflict if they got everything they put in for. Myself anyway (and I assume most serious hunters) will submit each LEH application for different times so you always have the ability to both if you get so lucky. That being said its impossible to plan for certain events, and things happen in day to day life that might change peoples ability to go on that hunt. Unless you have a crystal ball and know that grandma is gonna get sick so you can plan around that people are gonna miss hunts, its just a fact of life, and shouldn't be the end of the world. I don't believe your odds would increase 1 bit honestly. How is a hunter more like a greenie? Just because some people don't have the time to devote to hunting that other do doesn't make them less deserving of a hunt. Its fair and equal right now, its a roll of the dice, just like life. If you prepare yourself well enough you will always have a successful hunting season draw or no draw, its always up to you to make it happen one way or another whether it be a GOS hunt that you plan, going for the super low/undersubscribed hunts, or simply playing the odds by submitting for every species and planning around that.

I met a group of hunters a few years ago when we went to an undersubscribed moose hunt across Ootsa Lake that actually built their own landing craft to get their quads across the lake. They get drawn there every year and go for a couple weeks every year. If they can do it, why can't others? Thats 1 moose draw that is always near 1-1 odds, with lots of moose and a ton of roads. Im sure there are a ton of other draws just like that. If you really want it you will find a way to make it happen. I think they said their boat cost 5k to build...split that with 4 guys and you are hunting super cheap over then next 10 years in an area that is packed full of moose.

[Fisher-Dude]

It doesn't matter if there is a tag fee or not. It won't affect your success rates.

Again, your chances of killing an animal are determined solely by the annual allowable harvest, and not by the system of draw used. Higher AAH = better chances, lower AAH = worse chances.

[barry6.5x55]

12 years running and I have never been drawn, Ive never actually seen what an LEH tag
looks like. I take solice in the fact that the LEH application money goes to a good cause.

[buzz720]

It is only flawed because I didn't get drawn :P but it is pretty fair

[steel_ram]

If I got even a taste of draw, within the odds once in a while I'd say it's OK. But I don't, so I won't. Throw me bone every few years please, I'm not asking for an Island Elk, Kamloops sheep, just a 3 - 5:1 moose.

[bforce750]

If I got even a taste of draw, within the odds once in a while I'd say it's OK. But I don't, so I won't. Throw me bone every few years please, I'm not asking for an Island Elk, Kamloops sheep, just a 3 - 5:1 moose.

So drive up north/south and go shoot something in general season....? whats the difference

[steel_ram]

So drive up north/south and go shoot something in general season....? whats the difference

I'd really like to share the unique experience of hunting moose in the Rut, without the crazy mayhem of GOS, without spending 4 days of my very limited vacation just getting there and back. Just once, that's all I ask.

[hommer]

almost all other areas as you apply you get in line and wait your turn. Fair? Here we just go on random luck. still fair, but I hate to see some people never draw, while others get their 3rd or 4th tag. I shouldn't complain as I have had a couple of good tags, but I have still been waiting 25 years or so with 0 moose draws in region 4. Homer.
Thanks

[guest]

The entire system needs a revamp !

I like SASK SYSTEM .

CT

[22savage]

Change it all you want ,the unlucky wil still be unlucky and the lucky will still be lucky then we will have to change it again because some guys still won't be lucky and the lucky guy's will still be lucky. I think it's fair do your home work and you might just get lucky. wow I think i'll go have a lucky It's all about the lucky

[Moose Guide]

Considering the huge amount of GOS in BC, a lottery style draw for the small amount of LEH we have seems to be the most fair way for everyone. That said, there are a few things that I'd like to see with our LEH system, if the world was perfect and I was in charge of it.

First, computerize/online everything, including HL's and tags. (Yes, I know some of it is coming)

that done, set up a system that maximizes opportunity and streamlines LEH. What I mean by this is that if you get drawn you will have the option to participate or pass your tag to the next guy.

For example, for every authorization, 10 hunters get drawn, and listed in order

Hunter one gets first choice on whether he wants the tag or not, and if he refuses, it goes to the next guy, and so on.

When someone confirms they want the authorization, they get billed for a tag on the spot, and either get mailed a tag or print off a voucher that they take to a sporting goods store.

This would eliminate the guys that get LEH's and decide not to go, unless they want to pay for a tag and not go.

I'd also like to see guys that are successful on high odds hunts like Rosie Elk and Bison, not be able to apply for 5 years or so. If unsuccessful in killing an animal, no restrictions.

Not all areas of the province have internet access and not all people have a credit card! I like most of your suggestions but the first one would not be fair to those from remote rural areas of the province!
Rosies and Bison should be a once in a lifetime tag if you get to hunt (transferable if you can't go). If demand dies down you would be eligible again if you hunted but did not kill, if demand fell even lower even successful hunters could re-apply.
If you don't get drawn go hunt in a gos we have a wealth of oppurtunities in B.C., if you like Albertas system move to Alberta

[Gateholio]

LEH will be done online next year, so those without internet or credit card will probably have to figure out some way of doing it.

[madrona sh]

Most towns have a library with internet for free. You don't even need to own a computer.

[Ambush]

I would like to see one change for sure.

If you get the draw, you are billed for the tag. If you don't buy the tag, you can't apply for ANY LEH for one or two years.
Many folks apply with little or no serious thought about the hunt they applied for. And don't start the sob story about falling on hard times and can't afford the $30. If you have the time, money, gas, vehicle and guns to apply for the hunt, then you can buy the tag.
Maybe the family that puts in five or six moose draws, when there is actualy only one trigger man in the house, would think twice about it.

Too many hunters staying home because too many draw happy people are sitting on LEH's that they are not going to use.

Here's a common question:

"Gee, I got the Peace any elk draw. Shucks, I don't even remember putting it in. So, golly, is it worth it for me to drive fourteen hours, hunt half a day and then head the fourteen hours home? I hear it's really cold in January, will I have to bring boots AND a toque. I only got the one weekend and my son/daughter has ballet/hockey that weekend to, so it has to be a high percentage hunt or I don't want to waste my time".

[Moose Guide]

LEH will be done online next year, so those without internet or credit card will probably have to figure out some way of doing it.

I know a few people who have given up fishing because they can't buy their license at the corner store. Will internet licenses improve or further ****** hunter recruitment? I don't mind it being online but would prefer they keep hard copies available for those that prefer cash and snail mail.

[MuleyMadness]

Everywhere in BC has internet access. If you have phone lines, you can get dial up. Is it breakneck speed, no, but then, you're not trying to stream porn on it, just filling out your LEH.

Like was said, you can also do it at the local library for free. I think it's probably the best progress in the game in 20+ years, simply because 90% of the work, which is the data entry, is now going to be done by us, when we submit our info, rather than once by us on the cards, then again by someone in Victoria. You can't halt progress, everyone knows someone with a CC and internet access if they don't have their own.

[Fisher-Dude]

I would like to see one change for sure.

If you get the draw, you are billed for the tag. If you don't buy the tag, you can't apply for ANY LEH for one or two years.
Many folks apply with little or no serious thought about the hunt they applied for. And don't start the sob story about falling on hard times and can't afford the $30. If you have the time, money, gas, vehicle and guns to apply for the hunt, then you can buy the tag.
Maybe the family that puts in five or six moose draws, when there is actualy only one trigger man in the house, would think twice about it.

Too many hunters staying home because too many draw happy people are sitting on LEH's that they are not going to use.

Here's a common question:

"Gee, I got the Peace any elk draw. Shucks, I don't even remember putting it in. So, golly, is it worth it for me to drive fourteen hours, hunt half a day and then head the fourteen hours home? I hear it's really cold in January, will I have to bring boots AND a toque. I only got the one weekend and my son/daughter has ballet/hockey that weekend to, so it has to be a high percentage hunt or I don't want to waste my time".

Won't change your chances of killing an animal. Your chances of killing an animal are determined by the AAH of the animal, not by the type of LEH system or the payment up front for tags. More people going on hunts because they have to pay for the tag = higher participation = fewer authorizations available.

Again, AAH determines your chances, not systems or payments.

[CanuckShooter]

Won't change your chances of killing an animal. Your chances of killing an animal are determined by the AAH of the animal, not by the type of LEH system or the payment up front for tags. More people going on hunts because they have to pay for the tag = higher participation = fewer authorizations available.

Again, AAH determines your chances, not systems or payments.


Are you saying that when more animals are killed under leh the AAH is adjusted downward...so your 'chances' of being drawn are lowered?? How do they determine the AAH in a GOS???

[Fisher-Dude]

Are you saying that when more animals are killed under leh the AAH is adjusted downward...so your 'chances' of being drawn are lowered?? How do they determine the AAH in a GOS???

AAH isn't adjusted downward, tags available are. AAH is the lowest common denominator. Higher success rates = fewer tags available. 100% success rates = AAH being the number of tags available. If X number of people want to kill Y number of animals, that determines your chances of killing an animal, not the type of draw available.

AAH is determined in GOS with calculations of success factors, taking days/kill, hunter days, and animal populations into consideration. Then season length, antler/horn restrictions, and/or access is adjusted to keep harvest within AAH.

[boxhitch]

To an applicant looking at a particular draw, AAH means nothing. He looks at the previous odds against and wishes they were lower somehow, that only qualified hunters could apply.
Change in AAH or management strategy may effect odds in future draws, but not in the present.

Success of a particular hunter on his leh hunt depends on population numbers and the chance of planning meeting opportunity. Nothing to do with AAH again.
Previous AAH may effect current pop. numbers, but not hunter success.

[Philcott]

I went many, many years without getting anything but a doe draw here and there. My hunting partner drew a moose tag every two or three years and I went along to hunt deer and help with packing out the meat when success was had. For years I thought my hunter number was on a banned list or something but I have drawn moose tags the last two years. Luck comes around in time.

I think the system of handing out the LEH works pretty well. Is it perfect, of course not but what is. Keep putting in and hopefully you will have success. If not, do what we do. Get out there and hunt something else in a GOS. It's much healthier than complaining about the LEH draw.

Luck is luck. Some have it and some don't. I didn't for years (won't even mention the years putting in for Island Elk) and have for the last two. We'll see what the future holds.

[alexboyprin]

..well, the odds to win doesn't seem very high to me. It makes us dream and hope, that's all. Just like the 6/49. As the country become more and more populated and crowded, we are bound to lose some freedom of action. In the future, hunting will only be through leh probably or, only for rich hunters going with guides. They are changing our "rights' over to "privileges", slowly but surely. Did you know that driving is a privilege? that your passport is not yours, but the property of the government?
Alexboy

[Ambush]

Won't change your chances of killing an animal. Your chances of killing an animal are determined by the AAH of the animal, not by the type of LEH system or the payment up front for tags. More people going on hunts because they have to pay for the tag = higher participation = fewer authorizations available.

Again, AAH determines your chances, not systems or payments.

Agreed. But:
Right now managers have to take into account some probables. If, for example, an area can handle the hunter mortality of X number of G-bears. They know that normaly there is only about 50% participation and 50% success rate. So issue that many tags based on the normal math? But no, they have to plan on the possibilty that participation AND success COULD be close to 100%, which would decimate the population, on paper.
Better to have tighter numbers and a more predictable outcome.

[kootenayslam]

ALBERTA SYSTEM!
People who argue against it are old school, don't know the facts and don't like change, BC's "Lottery" is garbage, unfair, not easy to plan around and should be made a thing of the past, use ALBERTA's system. PERIOD. Priority system, works perfectly, has the bugs worked out, all albertans like it.......time for change.

[Gateholio]

ALBERTA SYSTEM!
People who argue against it are old school, don't know the facts and don't like change, BC's "Lottery" is garbage, unfair, not easy to plan around and should be made a thing of the past, use ALBERTA's system. PERIOD. Priority system, works perfectly, has the bugs worked out, all albertans like it.......time for change.


You haven't really done research into this, have you? :)

[Gateholio]

Here is a good thread that has lots of explanations on why BC uses the system it does:

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?11203-Ask-your-LEH-questions-here...

[smoke-eater]

ALBERTA SYSTEM!
People who argue against it are old school, don't know the facts and don't like change, BC's "Lottery" is garbage, unfair, not easy to plan around and should be made a thing of the past, use ALBERTA's system. PERIOD. Priority system, works perfectly, has the bugs worked out, all albertans like it.......time for change.


Have you ever lived in Alberta and taken part in their draw system? How many new Alberta hunters have you talked to in the last few years? Im guessing you havn't.

[emerson]

Here is a good thread that has lots of explanations on why BC uses the system it does:

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?11203-Ask-your-LEH-questions-here...
It says invalid forum, Gatehouse. How does the AB system work?

[Gateholio]

Try it now, it should work.

[pearljam]

From the link....


2. This is probably the single biggest question I get asked. Here is
the answer:

WHY BC DOES NOT USE A POINT PREFERENCE SYSTEM FOR ALLOCATING L.E. HUNTS

Point preference systems and pool systems (which are very similar) are
used in a number of North American jurisdictions. Alberta uses a
system in which points are accumulated each time an individual applies
unsuccessfully. Draws are preferentially given to those with the most
points first; the second most points second, and so on. When the system
reaches a point level where there are more applicants than remaining
available licences, the available licences are randomly assigned at that
point level. Upon being drawn, an applicant's points are deleted and
they start accumulating from zero again.

In 2005, Alberta had 213,749 applications for 71,950 available licences,
with overall average odds of 2.97 to 1. With such odds, on average,
applicants would be drawn roughly every 3 years even in a completely
random system. In B.C.'s 2005 draw, we received 151,972 applications for
26,476 available authorizations for overall average odds of 5.74 to 1,
nearly twice the average odds in Alberta.

If you examine Alberta's hunts in detail, you find that some of their
hunts are very easy to get, with many hunts in their WMU's actually
going undersubscribed. Eleven of their twenty-three categories have a
20% or better overall success rate (ie, odds of 5 to 1 or better),
encompassing 168,613 of their total 213,749 applications (79%). For
these hunts, their system will work very nicely, with people getting
drawn once every 5 years or better. However, with their high odds hunts,
it's a different story. If you want to hunt sheep in Alberta, you will
wait many years to reach the highest point level. In fact, some of
Alberta's sheep and goat hunts are not on a priority system because they
recognize that the demand is so high that nobody would get to hunt until
they reached extreme age. Fortunately, relatively few of Alberta's LEH
opportunities have such high demand, so overall their system meets their
needs.

In B.C. we are not so fortunate. In the 2005 draw, 286 of our 951 LEH
hunts had odds of 10 to 1 or higher, 161 hunts had odds of 20 to 1 or
higher and in 120 cases, the odds were 30 to 1 or higher. In some cases,
they were as high as 600 to 1. In fact, only 465 (about half) of our
hunts had odds of 5 to one or better. These 465 hunts represented only
39,834 applications out of a total of 151,972, therefore, only 26% or
our total applications were for hunts with odds of 5 to 1 or better. In
Alberta, about 80% of applicants are drawn after 3 attempts. In B.C.,
only 13% (19,751) of applicants faced odds of 3 to 1 or better in the
2005 draw, so no such turnover is possible here. Carrying the analysis
further, 41% (62,584) of our applications were for hunts with odds
greater than 10 to 1, 28% (42,992) of our applications were for hunts
with odds greater than 20 to 1 and 24% (36,690 ) of our applications
were for hunts with odds greater than 30 to 1. What this all means is
that if we go to a priority system, nearly half of our applicants can
expect to wait at least a decade, if not many times that, before they
will have any chance of being drawn. In a very few years, for many
hunts, the priority list will be so long that no new person taking up
hunting will have an opportunity to hunt prior to advanced age. Can you
imagine a teenager paying money annually to enter a system that might
provide them with a chance to hunt when they're 65 years old? Having
examined our odds situation, we believe that asking hunters to pay for
so many years before they have any chance of being drawn would be
fraudulent. Indeed, in the early 1980's, Montana scrapped their priority
system for elk because they found that nobody under a certain age would
draw a licence in their lifetime.

One suggestion we have considered relates to periods of ineligibility.
For example, we could decide that once a person has drawn a particular
species, they are not allowed to apply for some period of time.
Unfortunately, for many hunts, even once in a lifetime opportunities
don't help much. Using bison as an example, up to 2006, 38,153 people
have applied for bison in all of the draws that have ever been offered,
but only 1,454 have ever been drawn. If those 1,454 individuals were
barred from ever applying again, that would still leave 36,699 people
applying for 79 licences in the 2006 draw... not much of an improvement.
Additionally, periods of ineligibility have been offered to the BC
Wildlife Federation, but disagreement around the length of such periods
is always intense.

THE BC APPROACH

In British Columbia, we have developed a system we call 'enhanced odds'.
Rather than reward unsuccessful applicants, we reduce the chances of
previously successful applicants. All applicants that are drawn have
their chances reduced by 50% in the following year. In the case of
successful applicants for moose and Roosevelt elk, their chances are
reduced by 66% for the following three draws. This is done for all
species except deer, and the method was developed with the approval of
the BC Wildlife Federation.

The beauty of this system is that it does not discriminate against first
time applicants and it self-adjusts according to demand. If very few
people apply for a given hunt, then the system will automatically adjust
the odds reduction to less than 50% (or less than 66% for moose and
Roosevelt elk). This does not happen very often, but there are always a
few hunts that have low subscription, so there is no point in denying
opportunity to any applicant. This system does not eliminate repeat
success, but it keeps it at a low level.

The two main concerns with point systems are the length of turn-over
time for high odds hunts and the potential for these turn-over times to
discourage hunter recruitment. That being said, introducing a point
system for the compulsory inspection species (caribou, goats, grizzlies
and sheep) may be feasible if hunters want it. These are not entry
level species, so lengthy wait times would not significantly discourage
hunter recruitment.



If you still think we should switch to the Alberta system after reading the above, something is wrong with you! We have the best system out there. People need to stop being so greedy and take life as it comes! LEH autherizations are a bonus hunt, not something that you must have just because you want it.

[kootenayslam]

I have used the Alberta system as I lived there for several years, still use it with hunter hosts. I have also used the BC system for allot longer, and it does not make sense that we cannot go to a priority system. I've read the reasons why....BC would have to address one issue, once a hunter gets to priority 5 or 6 then transfer him into the lottery style draw for the high odds draws. This would work with ALL high odds draws. Meaning max wait times would be 5-6 years then your chances of drawing a high odds tag is actually feasible within a lifetime. I have gotten draws in the lottery system, i'm not one of the guys who has never got anything, I am though, like MOST people... someone who likes to plan hunts ahead of time. Each to there own but I've used both systems extensively and BC has a major issue and won't address it. Every time this issue comes out someone new posts the book report on how confusing and backasswards our BC system is in attempts to convince people "there is no other way"....., Actually there is another way but my best guess is there is political or financial reasons for keeping our current Lottery.

One day, one day, maybe, just maybe an open minded individual will take the reins and get BC's system back on track, easy yet so not.

my 2 cents.

[Gateholio]

I have used the Alberta system as I lived there for several years, still use it with hunter hosts. I have also used the BC system for allot longer, and it does not make sense that we cannot go to a priority system. I've read the reasons why....BC would have to address one issue, once a hunter gets to priority 5 or 6 then transfer him into the lottery style draw for the high odds draws. This would work with ALL high odds draws. Meaning max wait times would be 5-6 years then your chances of drawing a high odds tag is actually feasible within a lifetime. I have gotten draws in the lottery system, i'm not one of the guys who has never got anything, I am though, like MOST people... someone who likes to plan hunts ahead of time. Each to there own but I've used both systems extensively and BC has a major issue and won't address it. Ever time this issue comes out someone new posts the book report on how confusing and backasswards our BC system is in attempts to convince people "there is no other way"....., Actually there is another way but my best guess is there is political or financial reasons for keeping our current Lottery.

my 2 cents.

Show us how it would be done, using actual numbers. (Authorizations vs Applications)

Read above or the other thread....Clear numbers are presented.

[kootenayslam]

I have better things to do with my time than crunch numbers.

I know on a whole Albertans are by far and wide more satisfied with their system than are BC residents. If this is the case, which in FACT it is why would BC limited entry not at least try to go this route or else slowly try a priority on some species. Seems like a very closed minded approach, like a king losing his monarchy......we'll get there...... but there is definetly some old school mentalities that are apposed to change that will fight it all the way.....

[smoke-eater]

I have better things to do with my time than crunch numbers.

I know on a whole Albertans are by far and wide more satisfied with their system than are BC residents. If this is the case, which in FACT it is why would BC limited entry not at least try to go this route or else slowly try a priority on some species. Seems like a very closed minded approach, like a king losing his monarchy......we'll get there...... but there is definetly some old school mentalities that are apposed to change that will fight it all the way.....

You won't do it because you know your wrong! If you don't like BC, go move to Alberta and then you can tell us how good you have it there.

[dana]

Sooo, you would sit for 5 to 6 years collecting priority points only to go on a lottery after the 6th year??? Sounds like a good deal. Meanwhile, with the current system in BC I'll have had 2 moose draws in the timeframe you are waiting just to get into the lottery.

[steel_ram]

Sooo, you would sit for 5 to 6 years collecting priority points only to go on a lottery after the 6th year??? Sounds like a good deal. Meanwhile, with the current system in BC I'll have had 2 moose draws in the timeframe you are waiting just to get into the lottery.

And had you not got two moose draws, would you be thinking differently?

[Gateholio]

I have better things to do with my time than crunch numbers.

translation: I really don't have any numbers to back up my statement. :-D


I know on a whole Albertans are by far and wide more satisfied with their system than are BC residents. If this is the case, which in FACT it is why would BC limited entry not at least try to go this route or else slowly try a priority on some species. Seems like a very closed minded approach, like a king losing his monarchy......we'll get there...... but there is definetly some old school mentalities that are apposed to change that will fight it all the way...


I guess you think that looking at data in front of you and coming to the conclusion that an Alberta style system would not be the best for ALL of BC hunters is considered close minded and old school?

Read this again:

In B.C. we are not so fortunate. In the 2005 draw, 286 of our 951 LEH
hunts had odds of 10 to 1 or higher, 161 hunts had odds of 20 to 1 or
higher and in 120 cases, the odds were 30 to 1 or higher. In some cases,
they were as high as 600 to 1. In fact, only 465 (about half) of our
hunts had odds of 5 to one or better. These 465 hunts represented only
39,834 applications out of a total of 151,972, therefore, only 26% or
our total applications were for hunts with odds of 5 to 1 or better. In
Alberta, about 80% of applicants are drawn after 3 attempts. In B.C.,
only 13% (19,751) of applicants faced odds of 3 to 1 or better in the
2005 draw, so no such turnover is possible here. Carrying the analysis
further, 41% (62,584) of our applications were for hunts with odds
greater than 10 to 1, 28% (42,992) of our applications were for hunts
with odds greater than 20 to 1 and 24% (36,690 ) of our applications
were for hunts with odds greater than 30 to 1. What this all means is
that if we go to a priority system, nearly half of our applicants can
expect to wait at least a decade, if not many times that, before they
will have any chance of being drawn. In a very few years, for many
hunts, the priority list will be so long that no new person taking up
hunting will have an opportunity to hunt prior to advanced age. Can you
imagine a teenager paying money annually to enter a system that might
provide them with a chance to hunt when they're 65 years old? Having
examined our odds situation, we believe that asking hunters to pay for
so many years before they have any chance of being drawn would be
fraudulent. Indeed, in the early 1980's, Montana scrapped their priority
system for elk because they found that nobody under a certain age would
draw a licence in their lifetime.


So only half of the LEH's would have you waiting for 5 years. The rest would be much, much longer.

I wouldn't be against making a points system for draws with 1-5 or less odds, that would seem reasonably fair. But that list will change as more new hunters apply, and the odds could climb into the 6-10 year wait rapidly.

I still think the best system for a BC hunter is:

If you REALLY WANT to hunt LEH, apply for low odds (3 or less-1)

If you are applying for 5-1 + odds draws, then make plans to hunt in GOS and view LEH as a bonus.

[Gateholio]

And had you not got two moose draws, would you be thinking differently?

I think the point he is making is that he applies for low odds draws, with better success rate.

[steel_ram]

And if he hadn't got those two low odds draws in 6 years would he be thinking differently? Many don',t even when applying for low odds draws. On the other hand a luck few seem to consistantly get them. It's luck, and I know life isn't fair, but at $7 + a ticket and todays technology, the luck factor can be greatly reduced giving everyone a share of the "bonus" hunts. Certainly the reduced odds system is a step in the right direction. If someone puts in for a draw that has 4:1 odds, they shouldn't be getting nothing in 5 years.

[dana]

And had you not got two moose draws, would you be thinking differently?

I've had 6 bull moose draws in the last 15 years. So, nope, I wouldn't be thinkin' differently. I consistantly put in for tags I have a good chance of drawing ie 3:1 or less. In the same 15 years I've also been drawn for 7 goat tags, 10+ muley doe tags, 2 grizz tags, and 1 elk tag. Only high odds draw I've ever drawn was the elk tag (16:1) and I didn't even go hunt for it cause it was a Jan private land antlerless tag and I already had the freezer full of other game, most of which was killed in General Open Seasons. My son has been in the draws for 5 years. He has had 2 bull moose tags, 4 muley doe tags, 1 mountain goat tag, and 1 grizz tag. This is the first year my daughter has put in. She was drawn for a bull moose tag and a muley doe tag. But....I've put in for Kamloops Sheep every year of those 15 years and I haven't been drawn once for sheep. So therefore the system must be flawed. LMAO!!!
If you want to be drawn for tags in this province, it is really easy. I can assure you, I don't have LUCK. I can't even win a dollar with a scratch and win. I've never won even a coffee in a Roll up To Win cup. LUCK has nothing to do with drawing low odds hunts. You actually need to piece the puzzle together and use your brain. I have kept every set of LEH regs from those last 15 years, all of which have the previous draw odds listed in them. Pretty easy to see the trends and know when and where to put in an application. Some low odds tags I've had consistantly are 2:1 or less. Others range from 2:1 to 8:1 or even higher. If you look at the numbers on those draws you can see the trends where people will stop applying due to too high of odds the previous year. That my friend is the year you need to put in.

[kgs]

I do not think the system is flawed just not fair to everyone who applies for a draw. I would like a system where everyone was guarantied a draw every three years as long as you apply every year. Four years a go a buddy of mine got a notice in the mail telling him that he had a fishing fine for $100.00 dating back to 1988 and if he paid it right away they would register his LEH applications. The funny thing is he has applied every year since 1988 and never got a draw and could not figure out why no one had called him about this before as he had long forgotten about this fine. So he called them and they said pay the fine and your draws will be entered. He paid his fine and when the draw was done he received a grizz draw, moose draw, deer draw, and a buffalo draw as some of the odds on these draws were very high; he was dumbfounded that he had got every draw he had applied for. To this day I feel the draw is not fair as there is no way he could get every draw with out help. It makes me very suspicious of the draw system and the government. Who else is getting special treatment!!!! I know there are hunters who are lucky and that's cool however they may feel the system works only because they are more successful than others and yes playing the odds is good. In the last nine years I have had 4 moose draws and consider myself lucky but when I see a situation like I mentioned above I have to question how fair is this LEH system and maybe the government should make the draw more transparent. I have also met hunters who apply for LEHs just to screw with the odds and they do not hunt the draws if the get them. Now that really pisses me off.

[Fisher-Dude]

I would like a system where everyone was guarantied a draw every three years as long as you apply every year.

That would be tough with average odds running about 6:1.

[kootenayslam]

Dana, you don't understand how that works, once you read into the alberta system you will not make that comment as it does not make sense.

Unfortunatly the arguements are coming from people that have not used each system thouroughly, not a knock to the person at all just saying if you have used both systems i would be very surprised if you would want to continue on the lottery as most do not.

Smoke eater, i got nothing for you... you are arguing on a different level than me, unfortunately it's your type that would be better off with a move to another province to learn that there are other methods to doing things than your own.

[mpotzold]

I don’t think that the LEH draw system is flawed.
It’s just a matter of the luck of the draw.
Each draw you apply for is an independent event.
e.g. one applies for LEH moose(1 in 5 odds) each year for 20 years –the odds don’t get better with time.
By intuition one would think that one would be assured a draw at least every 5 years. Not true.
I’m against reduced odds (3 years for moose) & group/shared hunt draws.
It’s a lottery -1 person per draw- if he/she is consistently lucky SO BE IT!

Last couple of years drew goose eggs but over the years had more than my fair share of LEH draws.

Simple solution- Abolish the LEH system in general(a few exceptions) in favour of shortening or closing the season for “all” Canadians until populations are sustainable.
In the meantime I treat a successful draw simply as a bonus.

[kootenayslam]

I don't think LEH is flawed persay, just could be allot better

[dana]

So you just read my post about how I've personally had 6 bull moose LEH tags over the last 15 years and you think I'd be happy about loosing that and waiting 5 to 6 years per tag instead???? How does that benefit me again??? I've had 7 mountain goat LEH tags over that same period. How many years would I have to wait to get just 1 Alberta mountain goat tag???? I've had 2 grizz LEH tags in the last 5 years. How many years would I have to wait under the Alberta system for a grizz tag??? And just because I had only had 6 LEH tags during the last 15 years doesn't mean I only hunted moose those 6 times. I hunted moose all 15 years. Hmmm, can you do that in Alberta??? Sure you can pick a unit and apply and know full well you will get a trophy muley tag in 3 to 4 years, but here in BC, I can do it EVERY YEAR!!! Matter of fact I can kill 3 trophy muleys every year if I so desired. And I have 3 solid months to do it, with a rifle (not bow or muzzy) in my hand. Can you do that in Alberta??? Yet in so many people's minds, the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. If you think that, hunt there! I know full well BC has most diversed hunting and the best seasons in any jurisdiction in North America. No changing of the LEH methods is going to change that. All it will do is put new hunters on a long long waiting list, when currently, they can draw the year they put in. It is as fair as it gets. I already said how I draw tags. I put in for low odds hunts. I ain't got no luck in the draw. I choose to hunt units that the vast majority of hunters don't want to hunt. If they want a tag, they can put in for those same type of units and get drawn as often as I do. But if you think you should get a tag every 4 years when you put in for a tag with 16:1 odds, you are fooling yourself. Suck it up princess! Get a dose of reality and stop whinning.

[steel_ram]

Suck it up princess! Get a dose of reality and stop whinning.

Wouldn't be much of a discussion board if nobody took a contrary position once in a while. No need to be a DH!

[dana]

Don't Alberta hunters have a website. Maybe join that one if you think it is so good there and so $hitty here. :)

[dana]

Here's a question to those people who think the BC system is flawed. How many of you are putting in for the same unit and same season dates every year, year in and year out? Or do you put in for a couple of years, get discouraged and then switch it up and put in for a different unit? If you are bouncing around, you have nothing to bitch about. You wouldn't see the benefits of a Priority point system either. If you are putting in consistantly for a lower odds hunt 5:1 or less, you will indeed see success in pulling that tag, just takes time. Unless you are one of those rare individuals with real real real $hitty luck.

Another question is, do you put in as shared or as individual or as group. There are benefits and disadvantages to each of these methods. You need to weigh all the pros and cons of each method. Who you partner up with and their draw history plays a role in your success if you go as shared or group.

[Fisher-Dude]

I’m against reduced odds (3 years for moose) & group/shared hunt draws.
It’s a lottery -1 person per draw- if he/she is consistently lucky SO BE IT!

Last couple of years drew goose eggs but over the years had more than my fair share of LEH draws.

Simple solution- Abolish the LEH system in general(a few exceptions) in favour of shortening or closing the season for “all” Canadians until populations are sustainable.
In the meantime I treat a successful draw simply as a bonus.


Shared draws should be expanded. It allows hunting groups to stay together, encourages participation, and doesn't require more animals to be harvested to achieve increased participation.

Closing hunting seasons "until populations are sustainable" will do nothing when habitat in most cases won't support higher game populations.

And, you mention closing hunting to all Canadians, so I can only assume you think that foreigners will be allowed to hunt with guide outfitters while we Canadians stay home and pout. Over my dead body, Potzy.

[steel_ram]

Don't Alberta hunters have a website. Maybe join that one if you think it is so good there and so $hitty here. :)

It's not $hitty here. Always room for discussion about improvement. If you can't dicuss a topic's without resorting to calling contributors whiners, bitches etc..may I suggest you don't discuss at all. Working at it continually is why are opportunities are as good as they are. Some of you would rather just sit back and enjoy the gravy . . . till it's gone. The wheel has to squeek to be heard.

[.300wsm]

I would be happy if everyone put in for a species and if your name gets pulled you get a designated area of the ministry's choice. Even if it's in the middle of moose nut falls at least I can say I got a draw. Also it would be interesting to know if all draws get filled and if not why cant a substitution hunt be offered to next in line or have a substitution hunt draw on un filled area's

[kootenayslam]

I can assure you Dana if you join the alberta site there will be no arguments about how lousy the draw system is, shouldn't that tell you something......hmmmm.........i don't care if i get a thing this year or next but would be a HUGE bonus as a hunter to plan to get a draw and plan hunts in advance.....doesn't matter what level of the sport you're at having an organized methodical draw system makes sense. I can't even argue with you because your comments don't make sense, if you were to understand both systems fully then an argument can be made....

why would mulies go to priority? they aren't now........ you can still be greedy and kill 3 muly bucks a year if you so wish too, sounds like a guy who needs to up his standards and settle for one.......

[mpotzold]

Shared draws should be expanded. It allows hunting groups to stay together, encourages participation, and doesn't require more animals to be harvested to achieve increased participation.

Closing hunting seasons "until populations are sustainable" will do nothing when habitat in most cases won't support higher game populations.

And, you mention closing hunting to all Canadians, so I can only assume you think that foreigners will be allowed to hunt with guide outfitters while we Canadians stay home and pout. Over my dead body, Potzy.
By all I meant no special treatment for our FN brethren!
Re: foreign hunters/guide-outfitters – I consider them at the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to game allocation policy. The resident hunter is top priority! PERIOD


Don’t like this set up at all!

Groups of two will be allowed to take
one Moose only, and a group of three or
four will be allowed to take two Moose only.

Communication is necessary within the group
while hunting in order to avoid exceeding
the group limit.

[dana]

I can assure you Dana if you join the alberta site there will be no arguments about how lousy the draw system is, shouldn't that tell you something......hmmmm.........i don't care if i get a thing this year or next but would be a HUGE bonus as a hunter to plan to get a draw and plan hunts in advance.....doesn't matter what level of the sport you're at having an organized methodical draw system makes sense. I can't even argue with you because your comments don't make sense, if you were to understand both systems fully then an argument can be made....

why would mulies go to priority? they aren't now........ you can still be greedy and kill 3 muly bucks a year if you so wish too, sounds like a guy who needs to up his standards and settle for one.......

I used muleys as an example of the Alberta system that you hold so dear to your heart. And when you talk about easy priority points in Alberta the species that you are refering too is indeed muleys. Certainly ain't mountain goats or speed goats. ;) Start comparing apples to apples instead of comparing apples to oranges. Alberta doesn't have near the GOS hunting opportunity as BC. Heck, there isn't a jurisdiction in North America that can compare to BC. So why should we hear whinning each and every year after the draws. Because people here don't know how AWESOME they have it. Looking over the fence to Alberta and thinking the grass is greener is a sad state of affairs. People need to be hit in the head with a 2x4 sometimes so they can wake up to reality.
As for people from Alberta whinning, hmmm, I've seen numerous threads on this site over the years from Alberta hunters that want a hunter host to hunt in BC. Some just for the opportunity to actually hunt a mountain goat in their life time. ;)

[dana]

I would be happy if everyone put in for a species and if your name gets pulled you get a designated area of the ministry's choice. Even if it's in the middle of moose nut falls at least I can say I got a draw. Also it would be interesting to know if all draws get filled and if not why cant a substitution hunt be offered to next in line or have a substitution hunt draw on un filled area's

If you just want a tag, then why the hell aren't you putting in for the many 1:1 odds hunts in this province or better yet the undersubscribed hunts. The choice is yours when you fill out your cards. You have only yourself to blame if all you want is a draw. But to put this into perspective, having a draw means nothing when you have little to no chance at killing an animal right?

[dana]

It's not $hitty here. Always room for discussion about improvement. If you can't dicuss a topic's without resorting to calling contributors whiners, bitches etc..may I suggest you don't discuss at all. Working at it continually is why are opportunities are as good as they are. Some of you would rather just sit back and enjoy the gravy . . . till it's gone. The wheel has to squeek to be heard.

One way to avoid the squeek is to talk louder. :) So you are saying it is alright for you to bitch and whine but it isn't alright for me to bitch about you bitching and whinning? Only you can talk and I should just shut up and take it up the arse? If the people that disagree with ya don't say a thing, then maybe your squeek might get some attention. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I am allowed to voice my concerns just as much as you are allowed to voice yours.

And if any of you would bother to pay attention, I've given ya some real good ways to actually get an LEH next year. Who's going to listen and who's going to continue to whine?

[kootenayslam]

There's a big difference between whining and suggesting an improvement, big difference.

BC does have the best hunting opportunity in North American in my opinion also, not because of our lottery LEH but simply because of our Geographical location, that does not mean we can't continually improve our draw system, this should actually mean we should be the pinicle of draw systems and judging by the huge number of people unhappy with our system we are not. To get the best system new idea's need to be looked at seriously.

[Fisher-Dude]

Kootenayslam, what you don't understand is that the type of draw system does NOT change your chances of killing a certain animal. That is determined by AAH, not by the type of draw. Changing the type of draw will NOT increase anyone's chances of harvesting any particular animal. Period.

[boxhitch]

Type of draw system does determine the opportunity to go hunting, not chances of killing. Chances of killing are effected by population numbers and hunter effort.
AAH means nothing to the hunter with a species tag in hand.

[Fisher-Dude]

Nope, sorry B/H. AAH determines the number of tags allotted, demand determines hunters applying, AAH/demand = % chance of harvest. AAH * MoE gobblegoop = tags available. Lowest common denominator is AAH, which does not depend on draw system.

The type of draw does not determine hunter opportunity, only AAH ultimately determines opportunity. Zero AAH = zero opportunity, regardless of draw system.

[steel_ram]

One way to avoid the squeek is to talk louder. :) So you are saying it is alright for you to bitch and whine but it isn't alright for me to bitch about you bitching and whinning? Only you can talk and I should just shut up and take it up the arse? If the people that disagree with ya don't say a thing, then maybe your squeek might get some attention. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I am allowed to voice my concerns just as much as you are allowed to voice yours.

And if any of you would bother to pay attention, I've given ya some real good ways to actually get an LEH next year. Who's going to listen and who's going to continue to whine?

Putting in for low odd hunts, as you suggest, should work but for some unexplainable reason does not for everyone. Watching trends in odds isn't something new and wise you've come up with. It can backfire if others are doing the same. . . . and about "taking up the arse", that's something you've got buried in your subconscious son, can't help you out there.

[Darksith]

OMG, I can't believe this thread is still going. Why don't you guys all just get together, whip your dicks out and see whos boss lol.

First...anyone who thinks there is no room for improvement in anything in this world, including our LEH system is lying to themselves. There is always room for improvement, that being said the alberta system is NOT the way to go. Nor are most of the ideas thrown out so far. Im not saying I have the answers, but there is always room for improvement.

Second if your one of those guys that always strikes out (myself included), then its time to change what you are doing. If you get this upset about not getting pulled then you only have yourself to blame. We all use the same system, most of us will sacrifice something to ensure that we are able to go on the hunts we desire. If it means you gotta save your pennies and then shell out some cash to get somewhere remote via plane, boat helicopter then trust me, its worth it and you will never forget that adventure. There are very few exceptions to this truth, so quit making excuses and get planning your next hunting trip. I didn't even put in for any LEH this year except for the kamloops sheep draw since we are already going on a major trip for GOS Elk, Moose, Goat and Sheep. How can you beat an adventure like that. I usually put in LEH for a minimum of 6 peeps x 4 species each, and we still never get anything, but we still get to go on the hunts we want.

[Moose Guide]

If you just want a tag, then why the hell aren't you putting in for the many 1:1 odds hunts in this province or better yet the undersubscribed hunts. The choice is yours when you fill out your cards. You have only yourself to blame if all you want is a draw. But to put this into perspective, having a draw means nothing when you have little to no chance at killing an animal right?

You must admit, the Alberta system would work perfectly for Kamloops sheep!!!! If I start now I would get a draw in 615 years!!! That would allow me to really plan my hunt!

[kootenayslam]

"all the trees are turkey making elephants."

Unfortunately I believe that this thread is getting clogged up with too many statements like mine above therefore i'll back away from this little discussion.

[jackychiles]

Maybe someone can clear this up for. The way I read it, if I ( or my group) is not drawn for a moose this year we move up and our chances are better next year ? or maybe better put those who do get a draw have their chances reduced for one year. Right ?

Well my Dad and I got a moose draw in 2005 ( I think) and have put in every year for the (same region each time) and have yet to be drawn. Is this just bad luck ? or is the system not working ?
I get the odd draw but not much, however I have put in for spring grizzley every year since 2005 in region 4-38 and have yet to get a draw. That one seems odd to me.

I feel bad for my dad. The open whitetail season was great for him though. A perfect hunt for an old hunter.

[Matty_ola]

Once drawn your odds are reduced thus increasing the odds of other hunters not drawn

[reach]

or maybe better put those who do get a draw have their chances reduced for one year. Right ?
This. Actually for moose it's three years. For everything else (except deer) it's one year.


I get the odd draw but not much, however I have put in for spring grizzley every year since 2005 in region 4-38 and have yet to get a draw. That one seems odd to me.
It's just luck. I wouldn't even call it bad luck at this point. That draw has varied between 4:1 and 7:1 over that time period. Let's assume 5.5:1 just as an example. Your probability of not being drawn in any one draw is 0.81818181... Your probability of not being drawn 7 times in a row is then 0.81818181... ^ 7 = 0.245, or about 4:1.

Let's put it this way: you are more likely to NOT be drawn 7 times in a row at 5.5:1 odds than you are to BE drawn in any given year. 5.5:1 are not good odds.

[aaronfisher]

ive had 100% luck i put in for moose in 6-4 with 4:1 odds in 2006 and again this year but yea its easy to say ive got the luck when ive put in twice in 5 years

[lesterv]

Do you have a lucky rabbits foot I can borrow? My luck has always been good except for LEH. 20 years and 2 draws per year . Odds between 1:2 - 1:4. Nothing in 20 years. Statistically something should have come my way..........cheers

[aaronfisher]

yea my luck once I go out is a big fat 0 ive got about a dozen grouse to show for 5 years of hunting

[Moose Guide]

I have been drawn 4 times in 4 years, always low odds,3-1 or less and always in a 4 person group, before this I went 3 or 4 years without a draw but still hunted moose.

[jackychiles]

This. Actually for moose it's three years. For everything else (except deer) it's one year.


It's just luck. I wouldn't even call it bad luck at this point. That draw has varied between 4:1 and 7:1 over that time period. Let's assume 5.5:1 just as an example. Your probability of not being drawn in any one draw is 0.81818181... Your probability of not being drawn 7 times in a row is then 0.81818181... ^ 7 = 0.245, or about 4:1.

Let's put it this way: you are more likely to NOT be drawn 7 times in a row at 5.5:1 odds than you are to BE drawn in any given year. 5.5:1 are not good odds.

Nice work but yes I already new this ( I have a degree in Math and Stats) and I am impressed with your understanding of odds. It does however appear to be a bit of good luck on the part of others who I know have been drawn twice in a row. I think they could make a few tweeks to the system and it would be better for all involved but if we get into that someone will get pissed fast.

[curt]

I'll put this out here for fun bare with me I had and Uncle who lived in Huston BC Family of 4. 7 yrs in a row he was drawn for a bull moose my Aunt got a bull moose and both my cousin's got cow draws eventually I was pissed enough to write a long letter to the head office in Victoria. Weeks later I called to make sure they received my letter The senior project officer who at the time was a guy by the name of Barry Thorton took the call he know right away who I was apparently my letter was received and read because he mentioned many parts of my letter without any reference from me I was impressed!! Basically I called BS on how the draw was done and to me it makes perfect sense, if you had people putting in for draws in Huston, PG, williams Lake, Kamloops where ever and they happened to live in the region wouldnt you try and make it so that most of those people get the draws 1st????? I would and the reason i would is simple, if the avid resident wants game there is a good chance tag or not they will fill their freezer. I'm not saying all but some for sure, whats the chances a hunter from the Island, the fraser valley or Vancouver would drive up to any of these areas with the intention of poaching an animal.......a whole lot less likley than the resident who lives 30 minutes from his hunting territory IMO!? I also used to hunt with a guy he had a buddy this buddies sister worked in the Victoria office where the draw was held so he and all his buddies sent her their draws and were successful every year regardless of odds so connect the dots. Funny thing was Mr Thorton was trying to use the logic on me about hunt odds and people that are continually successful were putting in for hunts with better odds again I called BS because my uncles senerio was proof I was putting in for the same draw with zero success!!! It was a decent conversation he was a nice guy at the end I thanked him for his time but I told him I still didnt beleive him he laughed at said goodbye. Even funnier than that I got off the phone and my mom looked at me and said "this year you get your draw I'll bet you anything".............. Group hunt for cow moose that fall 2 draws between me and my Buddy funny how things work out sometimes!?!?!? Now Im not compaining here just sharing a story I fully beleive the system is flawed and back doorish but it is what it is!! there is corruption at every level of government so we need to just get over it and be happy when we are lucky enough to get a draw.........this year between 5 of us roughly 20 draws we got FA....just saying congrats to all you successful guys enjoy!!!

[meat eater]

i never got any draw's but my oldlady put in for the first time this year and got a doe draw so i can't complain to much!!!lol not that it does any good anyway's!!

[Fisher-Dude]

I also used to hunt with a guy he had a buddy this buddies sister worked in the Victoria office where the draw was held so he and all his buddies sent her their draws and were successful every year regardless of odds so connect the dots.


What an absolute crock of bullshit. No one has access to the LEH software program to do anything at all like you are implying. It has been fully auditted on the IT side and found to be completely impenetrable to affect the results.

You swallowed a bald-faced lie from your buddy. Tell him that next time you see him.

BTW, the guy you talked to was John Thornton, not "Barry Thorton." John is a stand up guy, as honest as the day is long, and does NOT deserve the slagging a sour grapes poor sport throws his way.

[quadrakid]

Every year the same whining about LEH. So what if the occasional hunter beats the odds and gets lucky more often than you. Lifes not always fair,buy some tags and get hunting.

[reach]

I think they could make a few tweeks to the system and it would be better for all involved but if we get into that someone will get pissed fast.
That seems to be the root of the problem. Nothing you can change will make everyone happy. If we go to a points system and everyone is guaranteed to not get a moose draw until 2018 or something, you can bet there would be screaming. It would be just as fair (*average* waiting time to get a tag would still be the same - 5.5 years for a 5.5:1 draw) but a different set of people would be unhappy :)

[jackychiles]

I would be less bitter if you had to buy a hunting licence before you can put in for LEH. I can see quadrakid's point for sure but if it isn't fair then it should be reworked so that it is. Life isn't fair for sure, but the LEH system should be.

[quadrakid]

Maybe some tweeking is in order,nothing is perfect, but unless they up the harvest numbers your not going to see much of a change.

[Fishhound]

I think that the people that think it is flawed should stop putting in for LEH draws then they wouldn't have anything to bitch about, then the odds would be better for the rest of us

[quadrakid]

Just as a side note,i live on the coast and of course everyone wants a rosie elk tag,one of the toughest to pull. They complain to no end yet with very few exceptions they don,t go hunt elk on the mainland. When i mention i,m going elk hunting the first response is where did you get a draw. When i tell them i didn,t get a draw but that you can buy a 6ag and get at er they are often surprised. I swear some guys read the regs once twenty years ago and have not since.

[steel_ram]

You are not allowed to think the system is flawed, or have an opinion other than that of those that enjoy a fair amount of success. Otherwise one will be classified as a bitch or whiner or someone who has an interest in other men's posteriors. So one conversations arguments only please. Everybody hold hands and sing around the campfire.

[Barracuda]

Just as a side note,i live on the coast and of course everyone wants a rosie elk tag,one of the toughest to pull. They complain to no end yet with very few exceptions they don,t go hunt elk on the mainland. When i mention i,m going elk hunting the first response is where did you get a draw. When i tell them i didn,t get a draw but that you can buy a 6ag and get at er they are often surprised. I swear some guys read the regs once twenty years ago and have not since.

this is very true, with the exception of Grizzly and Bison there is a GOS somewhere in BC .
An LEH does not gurrantee success it simply gives the ability to hunt a species in a region that it isnt available as a GOS.

[flyfishinmidget]

only draw ever got 1986 and that was a moose in black water and could not go had to work been putting in for elk nanaimo lakes and river camp as a 2nd for as long as draws have been out still waiting too. put in for moose tunkaw area 14 years in a row nothin time for area change. been puting in for moose for the last 8 years kamloops area and still waiting maybe next year ha ha my luck i will get both ya right thinking about taping a 50 to each draw

[Livewire322]

its unfortunate that people can go on such an unlucky streak but thats how gambling works...

[dutchie]

If people knew how to do math, and look at the odds of the hunts that people are getting multiple times... then they would see what the actual odds of them getting them are.

if you know any tricks on how to get drawn... BASED ON STATISTICS... you will get drawn every year.

I could draw every animal every year if I was to go on very low odds hunts!

I would suggest if you want to get drawn for a tag, you stop shooting for the stars in the 18:1 and go for the low odds 2:1 or 1.1:1 hunts. If you want to keep on going for high odds then do not complain! there is nothing wrong with the system.. the people that are applying and boosting odds of a pirticular hunt is the problem!

Dutchie

[dana]

An LEH does not gurrantee success it simply gives the ability to hunt a species in a region that it isnt available as a GOS.

Exactly my point. I have been very successful in the draws. It seems some are jealous of that, but lets put this into perspective. Out of all the bull moose draws I've had, I've yet to kill a moose under an LEH hunt. WHAT? Yup, you heard me. I've had a ton of mountain goat draws. I've only ever killed 1 goat, a small billy in over 16 years of hunting them on LEH. Low odds hunts are low odds for a reason. They typically are damn tough hunts. I am one of those insane people that actually enjoys hunting and the harvest is only a bonus. I'd rather go hunt with a low chance at actually getting a critter than sit at home pouting that the LEH system sucks. So while you might look on the internet and see guys like me drawing every year, it don't really mean $hit cause 99% of those who are drawing on a regular basis are drawing low odds hunts, the same hunts that all the whiners on this site pass over as they fill out their cards. Both of my LEH draws this year were under 2:1 and get this I didn't draw a grizzly tag at 1.5:1. Oh gawd, how could this be? The system must be flawed. ;)

[Island Redneck]

When I put in for a draw, I put in for an animal in an area I want to hunt and I dont really care about the odds, if I happen to get drawn great, but if I dont get drawn, no big deal.

I have gotten 2 Roosevelt Elk draws one at 62 to 1 odds and one 2 years later at 70 to 1 odds, I was lucky enough to get 2 really good bulls, I have been putting in for Roosevelt Elk ever since (about 25 yrs. ) and havent gotten drawn again. The area's I usually put in for are are around 100 to 1 so the law of averages says I have to wait another 75 yrs. before I can whine about not getting a Roosie draw. I put in every yr., but dont really expect to get drawn again but would sure enjoy hunting them again.

[flyfishinmidget]

im not wining i have stalked to within 30 yds 3 times over the years and thats a rush, for me it dont matter one way or other if i ever get a draw but i would like to let the air out of an elk one time so i will keep making my yearly donation one year maybe

[curt]

Fisher-dude you need to re read posts before you go sideways #1 I wasnt slagging Mr thorton in fact I said quite the opposite he was a nice guy and we had a good chat, sorry I got his first name wrong its been a number of years since that day. #2 the draw is done manually the ministry has only been talking about this for years now thats why it's always late, there is obviously some computer input along the way but I dont know to what degree. You can beleive what you want as will I, there is always ways around procedures and policies specially when you work there! I wasnt complaining either btw I accept the flawed system for what it is I have had my share of draws but still think its FIXED!!!

[curt]

People put out a post and right away many jump on the bandwagon to insult them! I certainly wasnt complaining a shared an experience from yrs past when I did give a sh** but I come to realize I cant do anything about it anyway so it doesnt bother me. Most of these posts werent guys whining and bitching, it was just giving people something to chat about while we wait for the season to start quite honestly it was a breath of fresh air from all the posts about
"Hey I put in a draw for an area I know nothing about can you tell me where to hunt please"...........

[CanuckShooter]

If people knew how to do math, and look at the odds of the hunts that people are getting multiple times... then they would see what the actual odds of them getting them are.

if you know any tricks on how to get drawn... BASED ON STATISTICS... you will get drawn every year.

I could draw every animal every year if I was to go on very low odds hunts!

I would suggest if you want to get drawn for a tag, you stop shooting for the stars in the 18:1 and go for the low odds 2:1 or 1.1:1 hunts. If you want to keep on going for high odds then do not complain! there is nothing wrong with the system.. the people that are applying and boosting odds of a pirticular hunt is the problem!

Dutchie


We tried that on goat...the previous year it showed 1.1>1 for 2 tags ....6 of us applied, and it came back 3.2>1 actuals, and NONE of us got the goat draw...so somehow the 0.4 applicants got both those draws??? Go figure.

[jennedper]

it may be that you need to enter draws with better odds. in the 2010 draw, there were 705 LEH moose authorizations that had odds of less than 1:1. those draws would have netted you 20 tags over the last 20 years.

[Grizzly Squirrel]

Our system is very flawed.

If you fail to get a draw one season, your chances of winning a draw should increase with each successive season of failed draw attempts.

[deerstocker]

i agree there is something not right i put in for moose , deer and griz for 19 years i have only got one moose and that was the first year i put in for the draw ---- ITS JUST A CASH GRAB

[xcaribooer]

it must be flawed , how else do I explain getting drawn for moose 3 out of the last 5 years!, and my cards never even made it to victoria last year (lost in mail...). I hear of guys not getting a draw for 10 years or more strait and it makes me wonder if they are just stubborn and keep trying the same crappy odds popular spots.

[barry1974w]

Our system is very flawed.

If you fail to get a draw one season, your chances of winning a draw should increase with each successive season of failed draw attempts.

So if you apply for 16 to 1 hunts and I apply for 3 to 1 hunts, you think you should get better chances than me. I think that there's too many ways to play the system in that sort of thing. Our system isn't perfect but it works pretty well. And for the record, yes I get draws. I seem to manage to get a moose draw about every five or six years (same hunt code), and I got a Robson valley elk draw once after about five years of trying (a big thanks to the HBCers to helped me out on that one), and I used to get under subcribed mule deer doe in the peace every year. And I got a Holmes river goat draw on my first attempt, the regs showed 1 to 1 odds the year I applied, but I won with 6 to 1. Turns out other people can read too....

[reach]

i agree there is something not right i put in for moose , deer and griz for 19 years i have only got one moose and that was the first year i put in for the draw ---- ITS JUST A CASH GRAB

it must be flawed , how else do I explain getting drawn for moose 3 out of the last 5 years!, and my cards never even made it to victoria last year (lost in mail...).
So these two guys together have 4 draws out of the last 19 years. Assuming these are "normal" odds draws - 5:1 - 8:1 sort of thing - this is exactly what you would expect with the current random system. Any one person might get more or less draws than average but the average always equals the overall odds, by definition.

As we beat to death in last year's LEH complaining thread (and probably every other year too...) there is no way to get you your moose draw any sooner on average. You can add all sorts of points/priority tweaks if you like, such as the current "enhanced odds" rule. But all this can possibly do is narrow the bell curve. The average number of years to get your draw will still be the same.

If 200 people are applying for 25 tags then on average everyone waits 8 years. There's no way around it. With a strict priority system like Alberta everyone waits exactly 8 years and new hunters are discouraged. With our current system you have some people waiting a lot longer and some getting multiple draws, but you have the exact same chance every single year (not counting "enhanced odds"). The average is still 8 years. You can juggle the points/priority values any way you like to reduce or eliminate the "randomness" but it will not change the average.

[bigben]

it must be flawed , how else do I explain getting drawn for moose 3 out of the last 5 years!, and my cards never even made it to victoria last year (lost in mail...). I hear of guys not getting a draw for 10 years or more strait and it makes me wonder if they are just stubborn and keep trying the same crappy odds popular spots.

Can you please put up your draws so we can all see them I have been putting in for moose in my zone for 20 years and have not gotten a sniff but I have people that move here into cranbrook and lived here 6 years and they get drawn Yup system sucks but that is what were stuck with next year I might try somewhere different and see what happens aslo I like to add my buddy has 4 moose draw in same zone in last 12 years and his wife had 3 go figure

[bigben]

So these two guys together have 4 draws out of the last 19 years. Assuming these are "normal" odds draws - 5:1 - 8:1 sort of thing - this is exactly what you would expect with the current random system. Any one person might get more or less draws than average but the average always equals the overall odds, by definition.

As we beat to death in last year's LEH complaining thread (and probably every other year too...) there is no way to get you your moose draw any sooner on average. You can add all sorts of points/priority tweaks if you like, such as the current "enhanced odds" rule. But all this can possibly do is narrow the bell curve. The average number of years to get your draw will still be the same.

If 200 people are applying for 25 tags then on average everyone waits 8 years. There's no way around it. With a strict priority system like Alberta everyone waits exactly 8 years and new hunters are discouraged. With our current system you have some people waiting a lot longer and some getting multiple draws, but you have the exact same chance every single year (not counting "enhanced odds"). The average is still 8 years. You can juggle the points/priority values any way you like to reduce or eliminate the "randomness" but it will not change the average.

Then why isn t it happening?

[Fisher-Dude]

Then why isn t it happening?

Do you understand that at 8:1 odds, you have an 87.5% chance of NOT being drawn EVERY year that you apply? Then you might realize why "it isn't happening."

[bigben]

Do you understand that at 8:1 odds, you have an 87.5% chance of NOT being drawn EVERY year that you apply? Then you might realize why "it isn't happening."
Nope don t understand your logic the sytem is FLAWED ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 20 years without a moose draw ................ went to alberta 3 year wait and drew moose and harvested a nice one and enjoyed moose meat on the table .............might have to wait three or four more years going to get another one ....................... system priority or point will work and that is why it works in alberta ,,,,,,,,,,,,,not in B C becuase our government will not enhance this system ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and I might add when I talked to Bob Forbes in a meeting when he was head biologist for the kootenays .........he stated the priority system will not work here because teh government does not have the funds to do all the paperwork needed to make this system work ...........anyhow my take on this is the system is what it is and I will further refrain from beating myself up what I have no control over the outcome of this system........Good luck to all the lottery winners may you have a successful hunt and maybe one day in my lifetime I can join you in gettinga moose tag ................Good luck

[Fisher-Dude]

Nope don t understand your logic the sytem is FLAWED


No, you don't understand probabilities, the cornerstone of statistics.

At 8:1 odds, there is a 12.5% chance (1/8 ) that you will be drawn this year, and an 87.5% chance (7/8 ) that you won't. 12.5% + 87.5% = 100%.

Next year, at 8:1 odds, there is a 12.5% chance (1/8 ) that you will be drawn, and an 87.5% chance (7/8 ) that you won't.

And the year after, the same thing. Every year the odds are the same, 87.5% chance of getting nothing.

The only flaw is your ability to understand why you don't get drawn at 8:1 odds. Maybe if I said "Hey Ben, walk across the freeway and there is an 87.5% chance you will get killed by a car" you might catch on. Likely, you'd stay off the freeway, because the odds are you'd get killed. Those are the same odds you have, every year, of getting nothing in an 8:1 LEH draw.

[Fisher-Dude]

went to alberta 3 year wait and drew moose and harvested a nice one and enjoyed moose meat on the table .............might have to wait three or four more years going to get another one

I can hunt moose in BC every year. We have GOS in every moose region except 5. How about in Alberta? I doubt it. Why wait 3 or 4 years when I can hunt moose every year in BC?

[bigben]

I can hunt moose in BC every year. We have GOS in every moose region except 5. How about in Alberta? I doubt it. Why wait 3 or 4 years when I can hunt moose every year in BC?
There are areas that you can be drawn annually , some people don t have the means or time to make the trip up north , I would like to hunt them in my part of the province being the kootenays and alot of my friend would like to too , and if your referring to the spike/fork horn season in region 4 go ahead and shoot one I would like to get a respectable speciement with a tag that I have never drawn in 20 years

[BiG Boar]

Well, may as well drag this one up again.

[SR80]

Lol I love these threads...leh season gives the best drama ever on this forum.

[Wild one]

Yep the LEH system in BC has flaws but I get drawn every second year so I don't really worry about it

I do meet a lot who complain about never getting drawn but usually it is they don't play the odds. I do know 2 guys I swear are cursed over 20 year applying a mix of really low odds(1:1 or less) draws and long shot and still don't get drawn

[604redneck]

Put in for better draws with better odds I drew the same goat draw 4 out of 5 times and a caribou and sheep this year.....

[Aaron Evans]

Some of us can't afford to drive 500 miles to hunt. We live were we do as a lifestyle choice. It would be nice to have a point system so that you were at least guaranteed a tag once in a while.
1 to 5 odds here. Ive got 5 licenses in the house and haven't pulled a moose tag in 4 years.?????????????