2011 LEH Statistics

[jml11]

Not sure how many of you noticed but they posted the draws stats already:

2011 Draw Statistics



We issued 30,080 authorisations to 25,760 individuals. There were a total of 26,316 authorisations available.
28,968 authorisations were issued as “first choices”; 1112 as “second choice”
Shared hunts for moose allowed roughly 5000 additional hunters to be drawn than would be without shared hunts.
2 people won 6 species; 2 people won 5 species. 21,866 people won once.
75,609 hunters submitted roughly 158,000 applications, 156,714 of which made it into the draw.
12 people applied for all 8 species.
52,544 people applied for just one or 2 species.
352 authorisations – 204 (of 3400 available) goat; and 148 (of 4401 available) mule deer – were not awarded due to being undersubscribed (not enough applicants to take all the draws either as first or second choice).
What I find most interesting is that roughly 1,300 applications were thrown out...likely due to errors, wow! And for the 2 guys who got 6 draws, I hope you are able to book the entire fall off!!

[The Dude]

I'm not a mathematardican, but read the first line again. What am i missing.
They handed out more than were available?

Can you IMAGINE getting SIX authorizations? Holy stinkin' fartsack, Batman!

[835]

If i got 6 i'd feel bad. Mind you i only put in for three and 2 of which are same place same time.

[mark]

I'm not a mathematardican, but read the first line again. What am i missing.
They handed out more than were available?

Can you IMAGINE getting SIX authorizations? Holy stinkin' fartsack, Batman!

I was thinking the same thing.....then it hit me.....2 authorizations for every moose draw=more!

some guys get 5 or 6 draws and most of us get nothing????? :evil:

[Philcott]

Interesting numbers.

[Amphibious]

i put in for every species except boo every year. it's a great system and a great way to donate to an amazing sport regardless of the outcome.

[Drillbit]

"2 people won 6 species; 2 people won 5 species. 21,866 people won once. "

There's a guy on gunnutz that claims he got 3 draws, "bison, Mtn Goat, Anterless Mule Deer. this should make up for missing both 2010 seasons http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif "

What's with that?

The biggest thing I noticed is that 75000 guys applied and there are 30000 winners. That should mean a win every 2-3 years. But it doesn't.
Still, neat to see the stats! Good luck to all the lucky winners, I'm jealous.

[KB90]

i put in for every species except boo every year. it's a great system and a great way to donate to an amazing sport regardless of the outcome.

I do the same as well. I went 2 for 7, with a grizz and goat. What's 50 bucks for the opportunity to hunt such a variety of animals.

[Amphibious]

There's a guy on gunnutz that claims he got 3 draws, "bison, Mtn Goat, Anterless Mule Deer. this should make up for missing both 2010 seasons http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif "

What's with that?

.

well that would be me. problem with that?




The biggest thing I noticed is that 75000 guys applied and there are 30000 winners. That should mean a win every 2-3 years. But it doesn't.


doesn't mean that at all. you don't know which draws those people put in for. how many put in for low odd hunts? Sheep? Rosie? Bison? I spend a huge amount of time researching my choices, so I have been very lucky so far. I also choose hunts with excellent odds. do your homework and "luck" will find you.

[Drillbit]

No problem, just saying that that the LEH guys don't claim anybody won 3 draws.

"2 people won 6 species; 2 people won 5 species. 21,866 people won once. "

You won 3, and I just talked to 2 of my buddies and they also won 3. They must be leaving something off there stats sheet.

[shadow1982]

I learned my leason last season, put in onces you know you can handle, so this year i only went with Doe and i got it.

[GoatGuy]

"2 people won 6 species; 2 people won 5 species. 21,866 people won once. "

There's a guy on gunnutz that claims he got 3 draws, "bison, Mtn Goat, Anterless Mule Deer. this should make up for missing both 2010 seasons http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif "

What's with that?

The biggest thing I noticed is that 75000 guys applied and there are 30000 winners. That should mean a win every 2-3 years. But it doesn't.
Still, neat to see the stats! Good luck to all the lucky winners, I'm jealous.

getting 3 draws isn't a big deal. A person who wants to get 3 leh's per year could easily. Under-subscribed goat/grizz and mule doe will guarantee you 3 per year.

Problem is most people put in for high odds draws (>4:1) and expect to be drawn- that ain't the way it works. If you're putting in for 2:1 or higher don't plan on getting an LEH.

[boxhitch]

They must be leaving something off there stats sheet. Doesn't sound like an official document release, so it has gaps
Like no listing for 4x or 2x winners either. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[North Star]

I'd like to be able to see if they actually entered my cards for the money I payed. Who buys a lottery ticket and walks away from the store with a promise from the clerk he'll call me should I win? How hard can this be considering the info should be entered in their comps anyways.

NIL in a 0.8:1 zone :roll:

[jml11]

As mark stated shared hunts. Me and my father drew moose but its shared so only one tag, two authorizations.

As it states in line 3 of the list:

"Shared hunts for moose allowed roughly 5000 additional hunters to be drawn than would be without shared hunts". Not sure why the say roughly as it is simple math (I think).

30,080 Authorisations handed out - (26,316 available authorisations - 352 Autorisation not given out) = 4116 "extra" authorizations.

[GoatGuy]

I'd like to be able to see if they actually entered my cards for the money I payed. Who buys a lottery ticket and walks away from the store with a promise from the clerk he'll call me should I win? How hard can this be considering the info should be entered in their comps anyways.

NIL in a 0.8:1 zone :roll:

just gotta pay more to have others draws thrown out.:wink:

[jml11]

I'd like to be able to see if they actually entered my cards for the money I payed. Who buys a lottery ticket and walks away from the store with a promise from the clerk he'll call me should I win? How hard can this be considering the info should be entered in their comps anyways.

NIL in a 0.8:1 zone :roll:

Remember the 0.8:1 was last years odds, could have easily been 1-2:1 this year or even greater. Some draws (usually goat) can go form 0:1 to 4:1 in subsequent years. If you have to know, just phone them and should tell you the odds of the hunt, but I agree it should show up in the online database as all the other info does as well now.

[boxhitch]

just wait for the paper to arrive in the mail

[Gateholio]

The problem with applying for last years 0.8-1 hunt is that others may have the same idea and the hunt odds go to 10-1 this years! :)

[The Dawg]

I drew Bison and Elk. 2 for 3

[jml11]

just wait for the paper to arrive in the mail

I don't believe they are sending paper for unsuccesful hunts...and with the mail strike we may not get them for successful hunts either :?

[coach]

The problem with applying for last years 0.8-1 hunt is that others may have the same idea and the hunt odds go to 10-1 this years! :)

Very true. Last year, I put in for a cow/calf moose draw that was less than 2:1 the year before. (I actually think it was less than 1:1) A spike/fork season opened in that region for the first time and the number of cow/calf authorizations was reduced from 15 to 1. In the end, I put in for a draw with 120:1 odds. Needless to say, I was unsuccessful..

[Darksith]

just wait for the paper to arrive in the mail
no paperwork on nils anymore. I have no problem with that, especially since they are moving to a paperless system, which I think we all will appreciate. It will eliminate entries being thrown out I would imagine, so that will benefit some peeps, it should save them some $$ which is always good, and you won't need to worry about whether or not you screwed up, it got lost in the mail, or its still sitting under someones filing cabinet when they dumped a folder full of paperwork.

[bforce750]

I drew 4 draws ,moose,goat,grizz and antlerless elk and I don't feel bad because everything I drew is less than an hour away except the grizz, but I will hunt them all...cheers

[pg83]

Cool to see some of the stats. Must be nice nailing 6 tags in a year. Little bit of luck goes into that. I'm happy with my goat draw. Four out of five of my buddies got their results, we all put in for Goat, Moose, Mule Doe, in the same area and ended up with 4 goat tags, 2 moose, and 2 does. My brother and I also missed on Grizz, Sheep and Bison, but that was mostly to be expected. I'm excited to get behind the camera this fall and get footage of some cherry-popping kills for my buds.

[Seth]

Does any one know whether we can phone to find out what the final odds were for a given area?

[dana]

Pretty simple to play the stats game to have it work out in your favour. Pay attention to the stats from year to year. Hold onto your LEH regs. Now they are digital, really easy to save them onto your drive and refer back to them over the years. When you watch certain units you can see how the odds go up and down and how when they get to a certain high, most hunters bail and they drop that year. Watch low odds hunts how they will increase from year to year. With this knowledge, you can put in and have a good chance at actually pulling it. There are also some hunts that the odds stay low consistantly. There is a reason for this. The hunts are hard to see success. Easy access with good populations typically mean poor odds. Poor access typically means better odds. If you want tags, pretty easy to get them. Don't mean you'll kill anything, but at least you are hunting. ;)

[Buck]

well that would be me. problem with that?



doesn't mean that at all. you don't know which draws those people put in for. how many put in for low odd hunts? Sheep? Rosie? Bison? I spend a huge amount of time researching my choices, so I have been very lucky so far. I also choose hunts with excellent odds. do your homework and "luck" will find you.

I got three draws as well all in the Same Mu My lucky day

[MuleyMadness]

I'd like to be able to see if they actually entered my cards for the money I payed. Who buys a lottery ticket and walks away from the store with a promise from the clerk he'll call me should I win? How hard can this be considering the info should be entered in their comps anyways.

NIL in a 0.8:1 zone :roll:

But the issue is, those odds are NOT this years odds, but rather LAST years odds. It could be 3x the number of hunters put in for that hunt, because of the great odds than did last year. You won't know until you look at the synopsis next year, or this year if they are sending out info about unsuccessful draws (I think they said they weren't).

When the system goes electronic you will know if they were entered or not, because it will be up to you to enter them. Until then I suspect we will all end up wondering to some degree.

[NaStY]

Would be nice if they just sent out the rest of the doe tags to people that didnt get anything in hopes they get filled.

[islandarcher]

what the hell is an undersubscribed hunt? If people put in they should get the draw. Who cares if 50 people didnt put in for the draw, if one person did and the opportunity was advertised as being there, they should be awarded it.

[Buckmeister]

I talked to a guy 2 weeks ago who said he got 5 (moose, bear, elk, doe, goat) draws last year and didn't even get a chance to go out hunting!!! I told him he won't get a draw for the next 25 years at least now.

[dana]

what the hell is an undersubscribed hunt? If people put in they should get the draw. Who cares if 50 people didnt put in for the draw, if one person did and the opportunity was advertised as being there, they should be awarded it.

Undersubscribed means they let out more tags than people apply. Say a particular unit has 50 tags available and only 46 people apply. Odds are less than 1:1 and those left over 4 tags go unused. For the most part, these units are tough tough hunting. The idea of handing those tags to people who didn't apply for them sounds good, but it would be more a curse than a blessing for most. Really would you want a tag in a $hitty unit in butt**** nowhere just to say you got a tag?

[notellyridge]

this province's draw system is a joke, it creates more poachers if ya ask me!!!!!!!!. i hunt in alberta every year and put in for draws there, they are on a priority system and it works!!!! guys get their draws depending on their priority, meaning if it was a 3 year wait in a zone to get their draw, they would start at "priority 2" and every year it gets closer to priority 0, when u have that priority, u get the draw. it enables you to plan certain hunts for certain animals and allows you to plan your vacation time for other things depending on your lifestyle and draw status for the upcoming year. you can also "999" a draw which means you may be a priority 0 for that year but wont be available for the hunt and want to push the draw to the next year... if i confused anyone, just look into the leh draws for alberta.... THIS PROVINCE'S DRAW SYSTEM SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dougan]

i got moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooose yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooo

[dana]

Funny that there's always guys that compare us to Alberta. Guess what? They have to put in for freakin deer tags. We don't. We can shoot 3 deer over the counter every year. Aside from Grizz, Bison and Rosey elk, we can hunt all the species that occur on LEH in GOS with over the counter tags. Can Alberta do that? Didn't think so. Ever hear that old joke, why doesn't BC fall in the ocean??? Because ALBERTA SUCKS!!!!

[Sitkaspruce]

Here we go again, comparing the great state....I mean province, of Alberta to BC.

There is no comparison, like Dana said, Alberta has to draw for a lot of their species, we on the other hand, can go hunt pretty well every species on GOS, with over the counter tags.

Get over it, the LEH is just a bonus hunt, like a lottery to win a few $$$. We have so many areas to just pack up and go hunt, better than any other province in Canada. If you plan your whole season around your LEH draw, you are missing out on some of the best hunting in the world, but that OK, as it leave more areas for me to go with out the pressure.

Keep the LEH as it makes for fun reading on HBC!!!!:mrgreen:

Cheers

SS

[dana]

So lets play a game. List which species you can hunt in Alberta every year with an over the counter tag? And then list all the species you can hunt in BC every year with an over the counter tag? Aside from dinky dog rat deer aka whitetails, you really don't have anything else in Alberta do ya? There might be a couple mountain units for muleys that are open GOS. IIRC there are a few areas for elk too, but I could be wrong. I'm not sure on Black bears but I would imagine they are GOS like the whiteys. Now lets look at BC GOS. We've got 4 species of deer (Columbian Blacktail, Sitka Blacktail, Mule Deer, Whitetail Deer), moose, RM Elk, mountain caribou, Stone sheep, RM Bighorn, Cali Bighorn, mountain goat, cougar and black bear. All these species you can hunt every year with a over the counter tag. So which province has the best system? :)

[Piledriver]

For over 35 years I've been filling out those cards. On average about 4 cards per year. In 35 years I've been drawn for 3 deer, 1 moose and 1 elk (cow/calf)! 4x35=140 cards. I could understand my poor record if I put in for popular hunts but with the exception of Island Elk which I don't often do, I put in for species in remote locations with favorable odds of draw success. This year of the 10 people I've heard back from 00 have authorizations. Oh ya, my little brother has had 2 Island Bull draws in the last 15 years! "Me thinks the system may be in need of fixn"

[kuiu]

So lets play a game. List which species you can hunt in Alberta every year with an over the counter tag? And then list all the species you can hunt in BC every year with an over the counter tag? Aside from dinky dog rat deer aka whitetails, you really don't have anything else in Alberta do ya? There might be a couple mountain units for muleys that are open GOS. IIRC there are a few areas for elk too, but I could be wrong. I'm not sure on Black bears but I would imagine they are GOS like the whiteys. Now lets look at BC GOS. We've got 4 species of deer (Columbian Blacktail, Sitka Blacktail, Mule Deer, Whitetail Deer), moose, RM Elk, mountain caribou, Stone sheep, RM Bighorn, Cali Bighorn, mountain goat, cougar and black bear. All these species you can hunt every year with a over the counter tag. So which province has the best system? :)


Im with yeah Dana, I lived in Alberta for a while. There system was good for the guys that put in for the first 4-5 years after they started the priority system. Now there are tags that a guy won't be able to draw until hes 70. Great system!

For anyone that doesn't like our Fair, lotto LEH system... Leave! go move to Alberta if you think they have it so good.

[Gateholio]

SIgh....how many times have we heard "we need the Alberta system here" whining? :?

[smoke-eater]

For over 35 years I've been filling out those cards. On average about 4 cards per year. In 35 years I've been drawn for 3 deer, 1 moose and 1 elk (cow/calf)! 4x35=140 cards. I could understand my poor record if I put in for popular hunts but with the exception of Island Elk which I don't often do, I put in for species in remote locations with favorable odds of draw success. This year of the 10 people I've heard back from 00 have authorizations. Oh ya, my little brother has had 2 Island Bull draws in the last 15 years! "Me thinks the system may be in need of fixn"


I have been buying lotto 6/49 tickets for the last 20 years without winning a million. Guess the system may be in need of a fixn........

Get real man. We have the most fair system out there. A new hunter has just as much right of drawing a tag as a vet. of 35 years......

[wiggy]

Dont like the game; you can always go pay a GO and hunt the leh area lol

[bridger]

i have applied for a bison draw for about 25 yrs with no luck some guys I know have received mulitple tags. what is fair with that?

[smoke-eater]

i have applied for a bison draw for about 25 yrs with no luck some guys I know have received mulitple tags. what is fair with that?


Some people win 6/49 more then once, some people win 50/50 draws at hockey games more then once, some people win meat draws more then once.......... Our system is the fairest out there. put your name in a hat and who ever has there name drawn wins! Fair, you have just been unlucky, Who cares! life goes on!

[Freshtracks]

i have applied for a bison draw for about 25 yrs with no luck some guys I know have received mulitple tags. what is fair with that?

You have shatty luck?

[dana]

I've put in for Kamloops sheep for almost 20 years now and haven't drawn yet. Damn how unfair is that? Seriously, you are only lucky if you put in for low odds hunts on a regular basis. Bison the last time I checked has some high odds now don't it. Bitchin about not drawing bison is almost as bad as bitchin about not drawing Kamloops Sheep is it not?

[bridger]

yeh for sure my luck is sucking big time but why not a system that takes the lucky guys out of the premeire tag draws for one or two years and give the unlucky guys better odds?

[smoke-eater]

For all the guys on here that think the LEH system is flawed, or rigged, or unfair, please stop your whinning!

We have the best system going! There is no seniority, money does not get you drawn, who you know means nothing! you can have horse shoes up your butt and get drawn back to back to back, or not drawn year after year after year..... It is random luck! Plain and simple!

And really, who cares!! because we BC Residents have the best GOS out there! Get off the "LEH is shitty" band wagon and get out there and go hunting!

[NaStY]

And you live where?

[smoke-eater]

yeh for sure my luck is sucking big time but why not a system that takes the lucky guys out of the premeire tag draws for one or two years and give the unlucky guys better odds?


Why take their right to hunt away???????? How is that fair?


Lets just say you were drawn for a bison 10 years ago........ Hunt goes bad and you don't kill anything. But wait, you can't put in for a bison again until all other BC resident hunters get a bison tag......


Sounds pretty shitty to me.... What do you think?

[smoke-eater]

And you live where?


Must be on Mars....... I'm not sure how this only makes sence to me.....

[Rhyno]

Couldn't agree more! We have tons of GOS opportunity, an LEH every few year is a bonus. I really wonder about the people who complain about putting in for 10,15,or even 20 years with no luck. It must be one of 3 things:
1) Some sort of extreme error completing the application
2) Applying to some long odds
3) Are the unluckiest person on the planet
If you think Alberta has such a great system HUNT THERE!

[boxhitch]

yeh for sure my luck is sucking big time but why not a system that takes the lucky guys out of the premeire tag draws for one or two years and give the unlucky guys better odds?enhanced odds takes care of that for one year

[behemoth]

Why does every LEH thread turn into a whine-fest from guys who didnt get their draw??


This thread has been done about 1000 times--

[behemoth]

Great thread smoke eater!!

Congratulations to all who were successfull in the draw!! good luck this year!!

[bearhunter338-06]

My moose area is huge, but just once I would like the leh, so I can shoot a moose, or atleast come across a "SPIKE FORK" moose. OH well I guess a 14 hour drive is in order lol

[steel_ram]

Some people are luckier than others. Some numbers get drawn more than others. It shouldn't work that way when the odds are suppose to be equal, but it does. See a chart for the 6-49 draw numbers.
In this day of technology, I see no reason for someone not be guaranteed to get a draw in 3 years if they're putting in for draws that are 3:1. But they don't.

[boxhitch]

I put in for species in remote locations with favorable odds of draw success. "If the odds were favorable, that would be less than 1:1, and you would have a permit.
Higher than 1:1 is unfavorable and there will be loosers.
In BC we have it so dammed good we are the envy of the world, and one just has to look around to see that. Maybe the Yukon is freer, but they don't ahve the species list.

[BiG Boar]

This is about the greatest thread of the year! People who can't grasp simple odds are beyond explanation! These are probably people buying lotto tickets and scratch tickets. Stop whining and go back to math 12. Simple probabilities. We're not talking university level. If one person can prove to me that they WELL defy the odds I will eat my hat. Get a clue idiots!

[kuiu]

Some people are luckier than others. Some numbers get drawn more than others. It shouldn't work that way when the odds are suppose to be equal, but it does. See a chart for the 6-49 draw numbers.
In this day of technology, I see no reason for someone not be guaranteed to get a draw in 3 years if they're putting in for draws that are 3:1. But they don't.

How do you not get it????? Every year new people put in for area "x" and other ones stop putting in for area "x" It is impossible to say you should be drawn once ever 3 years for a 3:1 odd tag...... Impossible! Every year you and every other person putting in for that tag have 33.333% chance of being drawn on a 3:1 tag. Thats it, no more, no less....

3:1 odds sound good on paper, but when you really think about it, it is not very good odds. The guys that get drawn every year are the ones putting in for 2:1 or 1:1 odd tags..... thats how to get draws almost every year.

[NaStY]

How do you not get it????? Every year new people put in for area "x" and other ones stop putting in for area "x" It is impossible to say you should be drawn once ever 3 years for a 3:1 odd tag...... Impossible! Every year you and every other person putting in for that tag have 33.333% chance of being drawn on a 3:1 tag. Thats it, no more, no less....

3:1 odds sound good on paper, but when you really think about it, it is not very good odds. The guys that get drawn every year are the ones putting in for 2:1 or 1:1 odd tags..... thats how to get draws almost every year.

Ya and to do that you would have to be a mind reader. No way to really know what will be that low...

[guntech]

I wonder what it costs to run the draws... they took in almost a million dollars...

[hunter1947]

I just checked my draws I got 0 for 6 it looks like I will have to wait till next year LOL..

[6616]

I put in for antelope in Wyoming once, for an extra fee I got put into an "enhanced odds" pool. I got the tag and a nice buck. Some states actually sell priority points under certain conditions, how fair is that to the low income hunter on a budget....???? The only thing wrong with LEH in BC is that there are many hunts on LEH that don't really need to be. LEH has turned into a crutch to compensate for poor inventory data. The system itself could be fine turned a little but basically it's fair to all applicants, some people are just luckier than others, there's no mathematical system that can compensate for that when odds are greater than 5:1.

[Bistchen]

This was my first draw that I actually won a tag. Do they mail them to you??

[kuiu]

This was my first draw that I actually won a tag. Do they mail them to you??


Same as getting the NIL paper as before, except this one will say you won. And FYI, its not a tag. Its an authorization.

[GreatWhitePopogeebo]

i would like to see how many repeat winners there were for same species

[kuiu]

Sweet! Just phoned in and got my first Rosie Elk Draw! Woot woot! Its party time. Also got a goat and a shared moose.

The phone in number is (250) 356-5142, if you have a gmail account you can now call for free using their online phone.


Your one of those guys everyone hates come LEH season.... How many years have you been hunting now?? Less then 5? And you got a bison last year and a rosie draw this year??? Good on yeah! Im sure there will be a good write up with pics come this fall! Good Luck you lucky bugger!

[pg83]

This was my first draw that I actually won a tag. Do they mail them to you??


They mail you an authorization paper. You still need to purchase the appropriate species tag and of course you hunting license. You MUST have your authorization paper with you at all times during your hunt and while transporting your game.

[Camp Cook]

I bought 5 LEH applications this year got so busy in my move to our new house that I didn't fill any of them in so No draws for me... :(

[reach]

Great quote and well said
Their system also GUARANTEES you have ZERO chance of getting a high demand draw for x number of years (x is getting up towards 10-12 for some draws according to one other poster here). Since there are many more applicants in BC, the guaranteed waiting times would be even longer than Alberta.

At least here you have the same chance every year. Sure, with their system you can plan for your moose hunt in 2023, but I'd rather have the chance every year.

[Piledriver]

At my place an LEH hunt is always plan "B". My buddies and me won't miss a trip because we don't get any LEH authorizations but what about expanding the program offering that little box you can "tick" if you will accept a hunt for the same species in another area? If it works for Grizz It would give a few more people an authorization. This option would not appeal to me however others may like another chance anywhere/somewhere. This year there were Goat and Mule Deer draws "undersubscribed".

[CanuckShooter]

For over 35 years I've been filling out those cards. On average about 4 cards per year. In 35 years I've been drawn for 3 deer, 1 moose and 1 elk (cow/calf)! 4x35=140 cards. I could understand my poor record if I put in for popular hunts but with the exception of Island Elk which I don't often do, I put in for species in remote locations with favorable odds of draw success. This year of the 10 people I've heard back from 00 have authorizations. Oh ya, my little brother has had 2 Island Bull draws in the last 15 years! "Me thinks the system may be in need of fixn"


I did fix it, each year I don't get drawn I buy one less application the following season....there is really no point in playing when you basically cannot win is there?? It makes it odds that much better for the people that seem to get drawn pretty regular, and I don't get so pissed off at something that really doesn't matter [win win] because we have enough general open seasons for me to hunt anyways. ps>the money I used to spend on application cards is needed now to cover the cost of the carbon tax on my hunting fuel!!!