realistic odds of immatures?

[ratherbefishin]

what are the realistic odds of actually seeing a legal immature out of the bull population?and what time-pre rut, rut or post rut?When you don't have a LEH and the hunt is going to be a one time week long shot at it?

[sealevel]

I think about 12 % of bulls are ever spikes or two points so those are your odds.

[3kills]

i have never seen one when out huntin moose but i know lots of people that have shot them and i would say probably pre rut would be a good time but pretty much any time i would think....

[Schmaus]

I have shot a couple of them and seen a couple more. My theory on getting the little bulls is calling them late october when the rut is mostly over. I think that they are more likely to respond because they probaly didn't get a lot of action during the normal rut and they are just maybe hoping for one last cow to be in estrus.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

They'll also hang with cows just before the rut gets going before they get chased off by the bigger bulls. Cow calling early can also work.

SSS

[GoatGuy]

Odds are low - if it is 12% of bulls and the bull/cow ratio is 1/3 that means around 4 in 100 moose will be a spike/fork.

Those odds haven't worked for me. I have yet to ever see an immature bull although I did call a perfect 3X3 in once.

[ianwuzhere]

ive shot one and positively seen 2 more while huntin- one i got was in early Sept. Not sure when a good time would be- all i know is they are out there. Lucky to see them while you are hunting. Last year i seen 2 really small bulls together a long ways away- too far for the binocs to positively tell me if they had exactly 2 points on one side and watched them walk away. grrrrr- maybe this year...

[3kills]

in one area that we hunt i know of 6 immys for sure that was pulled out of there in one year....3 being family members....

[ratherbefishin]

Moosecaller set us up in a very good area last year and I managed to call in a beautiful bull-first time I wanted to see less antler-not more!It was a thrill just the same and we did have a good hunt-but no meat to take home.I don't like hunting the early ''any bull''season because of the heat, flies,spoilage issues,so that pretty much means we have to go way north if we want a bull.Guys who live in the area can go weekends-but we are limited to a one week hunt due to the distances

[dana]

I see way more immys in the summer than I do in the fall. With the season starting on the 20th and the rut starting in the same ballpark, many get pushed out by the bigger bulls. I have been lucky during the season having taken 2 in the last 3 season. They do exist and if you hunt hard enough, you will eventually run into one. In 2004 I saw 17 bulls and not a single legal bull during the season. 2 days after the season, saw a spiker. Just how the ball drops sometimes.

[Jelvis]

I would start looking opening day sept 20th before they get shot down in numbers. Hunt and look spike forks are curious too.Try established areas that have been known for success. Hunt early morning,daybreak.Have some good optics to see the spike or fork. Use all three calls cow call, bull grunting/calling and calf whine is real good. Like the other guys said, you have about 12% chance which isn't too bad good luck

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Odds are low - if it is 12% of bulls and the bull/cow ratio is 1/3 that means around 4 in 100 moose will be a spike/fork.

Wouldn't the sex ratio as yearlings be 50/50 still or at least close to it?? If it is it would be only a slight improvement in your odds.

SSS

[bushape]

Saw a nice one in your area last Nov. 3Kills just off Aberdeen Rd only a couple km's from where the asphalt ends. Nice 3 point in there too.

[CanuckShooter]

There was a time about 15 years ago that we hunted immatures for a whole season...saw over 300 moose and not one...so we started hunting Pink Mountain..now when I drive through 7-9 going to work I see immatures all the time along the highway...years ago if you asked that question I would have had a real good laugh...now I would say your odds are pretty decent.

[todbartell]

Ive seen four and shot two since 1996

[BCLongshot]

Pretend your looking for BinLaden.

Maybe you won't find him but Oh baby if you do he's going down !

It's hard to be switched on for long periods.

That's what's great about hunting !

[sealevel]

Wouldn't the sex ratio as yearlings be 50/50 still or at least close to it?? If it is it would be only a slight improvement in your odds.

SSSmost heathy bulls are more then 2 points the second year. a spike or two point is geneticly inferere thats acorrding the a game bioligest who gave a talk to our FG club.

[Caveman]

A buddy of mine got some stats a few years ago about this. I don't remember the ratio of cow or bull calf but I do remember that he was told that 65% of immature bulls will already have 3 points on each side. so if the male/female ratio is 50/50 and 65% already has 3 points, we should be looking for the last 17 out of 100 being legal immature. Not a hole lot better than the 12 previously posted. My own experience tells me to find the cows early in the season, the younger bulls are usually close by until the rut brings the big boys.

[abbyfireguy]

If you are hunting for immies only(no LEH) you won't see as many..If you have a bull draw you will see tons when it doesn't matter as much....Thats how it always seems to work with me..Never see what you want when you need to..Funny how that works....Something like Murphy's Law for hunting....:sad:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

most heathy bulls are more then 2 points the second year. a spike or two point is geneticly inferere thats acorrding the a game bioligest who gave a talk to our FG club.
I realize that most bulls make it past 2 point their first year but I was just referring to the math. Don't most wildlife give birth in approximately 50:50 ratios?? So if you start with 50% then mulitply it by 17% (or whatever the actual # or 2point/spike % is -I heard 25%) you get 8.5% of the yearling population being up for the taking.
G/G used a ratio of bulls to cows (1:3)that most likely considered all age classes of moose(depending on the hunting/leh pressure) and not the yearling ratio. That is, unless moose give birth in that ratio.:confused:

SSS

[ratherbefishin]

we've had the ''immature'' rule for a few years now-so theoretically that leaves the breeding population to do what they do best-and therefore the moose populations,along with declining hunting licences,should be increasing-are they?

[Jelvis]

Theres more males born in the deer family then females. Males take more chances and die off a little more than females so the balance of mother nature. Bull to cow ratio determines breeding. Eligible bulls and cows 3 and a half yr olds and more. Right or Wrong? Must be 40 bulls to sixty cows right or wrong? Usually 10 % are mature males out of the deer herds right or wrong?

[ratherbefishin]

so...how many cows will a mature bull breed?[other than as many as he can get]from a management point of view-what is the optimal breeding bull/cow ratio?

[one-shot-wonder]

so...how many cows will a mature bull breed?[other than as many as he can get]from a management point of view-what is the optimal breeding bull/cow ratio?

I read a report once stating the reason for an open Immature bull season is to increased mature (breeding) bulls.
Mature bulls travel widely in search of a cow entering estrous and stay with them for one to several days.Some researches think that prime bulls may breed an average of only two cows per year in heavily forested areas. In more open country such as tundra, moose tend to congregsate in large harems during the breeding season and prime bulls may average five or six cows. Younger bulls tend to be slow starters in the mating season and are inefficent at either finding or impregnating a cow.
If a cow isn't impregnated during first heat (brief period of time) she becomes unable to concieve for a month. If again she isn't bred, she may become fertile again yet another month later. With this delay, her calf will be born a month later the following spring (if it makes it through the winter). This cycle is problematic if there are too few mature bulls to keep the rut period short and the popluation healthy and stable.

[Jelvis]

If a mature cow moose isn't impressed with the bulls head gear she won't let him mount her. Simple as that. He must impress her with his rack size and symetrical or evenly matched sides of the rack. A little bull she will send him away from her. When big bull comes little bull slinks off.

[GoatGuy]

Wouldn't the sex ratio as yearlings be 50/50 still or at least close to it?? If it is it would be only a slight improvement in your odds.

SSS\

Of yearlings kinda ---- but I was stating based on 12% of the bull population. Bull to cow is usually close to 1:3 or 33% in these parts.

50/50 sounds good - but you're assuming 100% of cows will be bred - you're also assuming all calves will survive through their first and toughest year. Highly unlikely on a good day. You'd have to look at mortality and reproduction.

Steve and others have seen and do kill immatures. I've been in on a lot of moose kills and have called a lot of moose in and have yet to see one. Heck I've seen 100+ moose in the past three weeks and haven't seen one. Guess I have bad luck.

[Benthos]

last year was my first year hunting. on my third day trip out i saw and shot an immature (2x1) bull.

after i shot the moose, i decided to go deer hunting. my second day trip out deer hunting i saw another immature (2x2).

so, out of my first 5 hunting days last year i saw two immatures.

since i didn't get a draw again this year, i guess we'll see if it was dumb luck i saw two last year, or, if i actually know where to look...

[ratherbefishin]

does a mature cow moose generally have singles or twins?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

\

Of yearlings kinda ---- but I was stating based on 12% of the bull population. Bull to cow is usually close to 1:3 or 33% in these parts.

50/50 sounds good - but you're assuming 100% of cows will be bred - you're also assuming all calves will survive through their first and toughest year. Highly unlikely on a good day. You'd have to look at mortality and reproduction.

Steve and others have seen and do kill immatures. I've been in on a lot of moose kills and have called a lot of moose in and have yet to see one. Heck I've seen 100+ moose in the past three weeks and haven't seen one. Guess I have bad luck.
Actually, I was only assuming that 50% of calfs born will be male and 50% born will be female. Assume that the ratio is still 50/50 when that age class becomes yearlings. Out of that 50% male yearlings, only 12% or so will be immies. That's only 8% of yearlings that are harvestable for us.
I wasn't looking ahead to the all age classess. Just the yearlings.
SSS

[Jelvis]

Lots of variables, First pregnancy, when young has one. Then genetics, heredity, quality of food, minerals, calcium, sodium rich water plants etc. Help determine twins or not. The most important range for herds is winter range. If destroyed, could have drastic effect on animals. Then tick infestation can cause health problems. Bears take moose calfs, wolves, etc so chance of survival is precarious. Thats why taking a cow moose with a young calf can be a death for the calf too, can't survive without the cow showing it how. What do you think about this? I'm talking a calf born in the last spring. Does it make sense?

[ratherbefishin]

I wouldn't like to take a cow if it had a calf-even if it was legal.Something about personal ethics,I would like the meat, but I don'y need it that bad.
The local blacktails typically have a single the first time,then twins thereafter.However,by the following spring, you don;t see many twins that have survived.

[Jelvis]

Hey Rather, do you think moose and mule deer/blacktails have a lot in common since there from the deer family. Same habitats, feed etc. or do you think their way different in many ways? What do you think about this subject? The deer family. How do you think there the same and how different? It's quite an interesting comparison don't you think? Jel

[ratherbefishin]

I;m more familiar with blacktails[in my yard as we speak]but this does give me the opportunity to observe their habits on a daily basis,rut periods, number of fawns, survival rates, periods of activety etc.Funny,I've tried calling but either they aren't much affected ,or I'm a lousy caller.I have tried grunt calls-and a doe just kept on eating-didn't even seem to notice.I have occasionaly heard a buck grunt -but they don't seem to come to either grunts or rattling.Seems pretty hit or miss.But I do know moose will come in-tried it and it works

[Caveman]

Another factor that could affect the numbers, was the bull one of twins because I have also seen two immatures together a couple of times and they both were very small 1X2 or 2X2 :?:

[Jelvis]

In order to get a spike / fork bull moose, you have to get out early season, early mornings, hunt hard early, till late. Drive slowly passed marshes, swamps wet areas in the mornings. Find a nice quiet spot in a long clearing thats narrow. Maybe on a hill so you can look around. at least two ways to look. Then do some calling and listen hard. Sooner or later you will get your opportunity and see if your gun is still shooting straight. Find an area that you know produces good young calves and the rest is up to Bullwinkle.

[dana]

Goatguy,
You must have bad luck dude. I've already got my Forky tied up for opening day. :)

Fact is immatures are where you find them, just like any critter. To say they make up 12% of the bull population is BS. How the hell did they come up with that number? It's just a guess they have thrown out there. Maybe 12% of the bulls harvested each year are immys, maybe. There are way more issues involved in antler growth and configuration than just genetics. One year you might have a bumper crop of spike/fork bulls and the next year you might not. If a population of calves gets hit hard by predation one winter, do you think that that population will have 12% immy bulls? Probably not as a mature bull can defend itself against predators a lot better than a calf moose can.