Clear cutting and wild life

[alexboyprin]

Hi. I am wondering...does the government take into consideration the deers/mooses/elk population (well being) when they do clear cutting. I mean, in some place it is like a war zone! may be because of the pine beatle they have had to cut more trees than usual? in some place, i swear that, no matter how deep you walk "in the forest" (or what is left of it) it seem that one is never further awas from a road or cut block by more than half a kilometer!!!?? Are these large denuded surface somehow useful for ongulates?? or, they they just uses the wooden valley, mostly?

thanks to all for your comments!
alexboy

[mjmbc]

before they log an area off yes they do take it into consideration, there are so many hoops you have to jump through before you can cut it would make your head spin . as for the pine beetle cut blocks its either that or looseing the whole forest not to mention how unsafe it is to walk through a dead forest trees can come down on you at any time

[moosecaller]

Certain animals do better in clear cut areas, it opens up more feed for them and allows them to increase their range. it's not bad for all of the grazers and browsers. Populations have increased in some of the ungulates due to clear cut, although it looks terrible it's not all bad.

[Barracuda]

clear cuts are good

[goatdancer]

The government does not care about wildlife. Their only concern is to get as much money as they can from the trees. The forest companies do clearcuts because it's the cheapest method of harvesting the trees.

[KodiakHntr]

The government does not care about wildlife. Their only concern is to get as much money as they can from the trees. The forest companies do clearcuts because it's the cheapest method of harvesting the trees.

Do those of us that make our living doing this a favour would you goat?

Some of us spend inordinate amounts of time and energy to make sure that the forest land base is managed correctly. Please try to not state personaly opinion as fact.

There is so much that goes into creating a cutblock that you evidently have no idea about that perhaps you should refrain from posting further on this thread.

[oldtimer]

Do those of us that make our living doing this a favour would you goat?

Some of us spend inordinate amounts of time and energy to make sure that the forest land base is managed correctly. Please try to not state personaly opinion as fact.

There is so much that goes into creating a cutblock that you evidently have no idea about that perhaps you should refrain from posting further on this thread.

Perfectly said!! For those of you that want to listen.
Besides the devastation of the Pine Beetle, Pine Forests need to be replanted because their seeds open up usually under extreme heat (forsest fires). The best way to allow tree planters to do their jobs safely is through a clear cut. The bigger clear cuts now are a direct result of the pine beetle not corporate greed or indifference. Mike

[barry1974w]

Most large clear cuts have WTP's (wildlife tree patch) in them also. But with some of the large beetle blocks this becomes difficult, so in most of those cuts the WTP's will be patches of spruce. Those are left for thermal cover and bedding areas.

[Piperdown]

Well alex maybe you and your droggy wogs might have to walk a little further into the woods to find a little bit of the ole ultra violence, maybe at the milk bar :) love your avatar

[uraarchr]

As far as I know most ungulates benefit some from logging and burning.The ungulate that is most negatively affected is the caribou.They eat the mosses and lichens in the old growth forest and need connected areas like this for habitat :but this is in caribou areas only.Not much we can do about the pine beetle thing but cut it all.

[Gateholio]

Clear cuts are a benefit to most large animals. Produce lots of nice yummy food for them. The reason moose made it's way to southern BC probably had much to do with following clear cuts.

[alexboyprin]

...i guess it is mostly because of the pine beetles that the clear cuts are bigger. It cannot be help i suppose. in general, the forest seem to be well manage (chess board cuts) they leave forest cover along the lakes and streams, they plant new trees etc etc. they just have to make sure that they do not cut at a faster rate that the forest is growing. that's all. i suppose that it must takes at least 60-80 years rotation before they come back to an area to harvest again?

[goatdancer]

Do those of us that make our living doing this a favour would you goat?

Some of us spend inordinate amounts of time and energy to make sure that the forest land base is managed correctly. Please try to not state personaly opinion as fact.

There is so much that goes into creating a cutblock that you evidently have no idea about that perhaps you should refrain from posting further on this thread.

There was a time when the forest service had the manpower to police and enforce. The BCFS has been gutted and a lot of the forest 'management' has been left to the industry. I have spent a lot of time in the 'bush' and have noted the differences between 20 years ago and now. A few years back I was hunting in the east Kootenays and came across a sign that said "This is a managed forest by" I can't remember the company name. It was definitely managed all right. For as far as one could see, they managed to cut down every tree. I'm not talking cut blocks, I'm talking one massive clear cut. This was before the pine beetle infestation so that was not the issue.

[Jelvis]

Imagine if the deer and moose talked this way lol, hey leveling a human's house flat to the ground is good for humans lol, and cutting all the trees around that house flat too, hey it will be good for the humans in ten years, just wait and see.
Until the trees grow back tall enough in twenty years the humans won't have any canopy or place to hide, but hey the animals don't mind, so the humans don't either, lol.
Jel .. If animals could talk you'd get an earful believe me lol ..
Hey can yah please cut all the trees down then, if it's good for us. Weird thinking 101
Humans can make anything sound ok if they want to lol.

[alexboyprin]

...i have heard the same thing as you by a forestry engineer. he told me that the forests where better manage before and then, the government left the management to the industries (which are certainly more driven by profits) so, may be they cut faster than they should.

[firestorm1]

Hi everyone !
I have did a lot of scouting in these clear cut areas when it is replanted and the re-gen has grown up to about 6 feet and the amount of feed in these areas is very good for deer ; moose and other ungulates.
Another important part of this is that the forest has been replanted to allow the trees to give off Oxygen were as if we leave the dead trees and don't plant right away it takes longer for the natural trees to come back.
Thank you for reading my response and good hunting !!!

Firestorm1

[goatdancer]

Hi everyone !
I have did a lot of scouting in these clear cut areas when it is replanted and the re-gen has grown up to about 6 feet and the amount of feed in these areas is very good for deer ; moose and other ungulates.
Another important part of this is that the forest has been replanted to allow the trees to give off Oxygen were as if we leave the dead trees and don't plant right away it takes longer for the natural trees to come back.
Thank you for reading my response and good hunting !!!


Firestorm1

The replanting is essential for good management. The one thing I can say about it is it seems that the replanting is done a lot sooner after harvesting in modern times compared to what was done in the past. That is a very good thing. Can anyone explain why some areas are physically replanted and other areas are left to natural seeding?

[KodiakHntr]

There was a time when the forest service had the manpower to police and enforce. The BCFS has been gutted and a lot of the forest 'management' has been left to the industry. I have spent a lot of time in the 'bush' and have noted the differences between 20 years ago and now. A few years back I was hunting in the east Kootenays and came across a sign that said "This is a managed forest by" I can't remember the company name. It was definitely managed all right. For as far as one could see, they managed to cut down every tree. I'm not talking cut blocks, I'm talking one massive clear cut. This was before the pine beetle infestation so that was not the issue.

Again, no clue as to how things actually work. Personal opinion, not fact. You obviously have no idea how forest management works, or even when the Mountain Pine Beetle first made an appearance in BC.

In the 90's (20 years ago by your timeline) the Ministry of Forests was so heavily involved in industry business that it might as well of been a MOF managed cut. Industry did NOTHING without every step being approved by a beauracrat in a green shirt.

The signs for instance, were a legal requirement. Printed, upkeep, etc....What value does that add to the forest?

And at that time, the MOF was getting creative and trying to mimic forest fires. I can well remember laying out a few 1000 hectare plus clearcuts back then.

[Jelvis]

One forester guy I talked to and told him what I thought of the huge clear cut he supervised and being it was leveled in my hunting grounds said, oh yah the loggers took more than was allowed, he took way more and he will be fined.
I said, ok but it's kinda late hah? Yah he said it is.
I couldn't believe how they can cut the forest bald in wintering range and not do the select logging, but he said it is too expensive and easier too plant on an open terrain.
I could have ko'd the jack ass but stupidity is so common now a days, my hands would be broken slammin all the dopes out there.
Jel loppy .. Leave my mountain alone .. STAY OFF MY Mountain ..

[KodiakHntr]

The replanting is essential for good management. The one thing I can say about it is it seems that the replanting is done a lot sooner after harvesting in modern times compared to what was done in the past. That is a very good thing. Can anyone explain why some areas are physically replanted and other areas are left to natural seeding?


Of course replanting is going to be done faster. What is going to get you a better vegetable, digging up a plot of soil and planting seeds and caring for them, or tossing some carrot seeds on your lawn?

Some areas are replanted to get the best crop of trees possible based on site conditions, while other times the particular species or target crop is better suited from natural regeneration. Around 100 Mile area for years there was very little planting done, as there would be too many pine trees sprout up from dropped cones during harvest that they would have to be thinned out, much less putting EXTRA trees in the ground.

[Jelvis]

Also they replant the trees too close after, another A hole move. Some one's head should roll right out of the job.
Jel .. Terminator .. Your fired! .. Get out now!

[fearless]

Kodiakhntr your dealing with ignorance do'nt even bite.

[KodiakHntr]

Yeah.....

Threads like this piss me off no end. Everyone's got an opinion I suppose, and very little real knowledge of how things work in this province.

I'm out.

[Jelvis]

I saw it with my own eyes and so did my hunting buddies and we were livid, cut everything down in prime winter range so don't try to tell me every bodies honest and perfect. Some should be penalized for this craziness. At least get your wood from other than prime big game winter range, stay away from winter range habitat, you got enough wood in other spots.
Jelly Belly .. Just cuz the access is easier is not good enough .. STOP IT! .. NOW!
Life is a lot more than just making financial gain .. Save the wintering range .. OK?

[Look74]

Go and have a look in the rain forest and see what live in it. And look for the food for wildlife. All plant life needs sun light, without the sun the food value is very low. Wildlife need food and cover not just cover in a jack pine forest.

[moosinaround]

The replanting is essential for good management. The one thing I can say about it is it seems that the replanting is done a lot sooner after harvesting in modern times compared to what was done in the past. That is a very good thing. Can anyone explain why some areas are physically replanted and other areas are left to natural seeding?
One of the most important steps in establishing a healthy crop of second growth trees is the establishment of the seedlings roots. These roots are best suited to the humus layers in the soil profile. Raised microsites are prone to earlier soil warming, which leads to earlier root development, which leads to earlier foliar development. This is the machinery that trees use to grow. Sometimes natural regeneration is used, but in most cases, especially with Lodgepole pine, the cones need a heat source for the sorotinous cones to open up and release the seeds. All this leads to a few different issues when it comes to regenerating a forest. There is a specific times period a forest licence holder has to establish a "new" forest on the clearcutted site. With artificial reforestation, trees can be placed on the "best" microsites which are indusive to quick establishment, and higher survival rates. This leads to quicker compliance for the licence holder to meet the regeneration requirements, and gives the tree a chance to establish its roots before the competing vegetation. In a naturally reforested stand, seeds must first be "released" from the cones of Pine.

They must be then distributed within the disturbed area, and the seeds need a growing site where they can germinate and start to establish a root system. This could take years and while the seed is doing this, so are the seedlings competitors(aspen, fireweed, willow ect). With artificial reforestation we can get trees on the disturbed site faster, on the proper microsites, and we can give the seedlings the best chance at surviving to becoming a mature tree. Moosin

[Jelvis]

Yah but making a moon scape is not the answer in wild life winter range, I know select logging with horses can give better forest floor protection and leave some canopy to hold the snow and give some valuable oxygen to our areas.
Select horse logging only in sensitive winter range from now on.
Jel. Now you can see through the forest of select logging and still see some healthy trees.
No balding, in the range of winter, we need cover for protection of wind and cold.

[chinookkiller]

the more clear cuts,the more animal,and the more hunting fun!

[oldtimer]

Horse logging has been tried in the Quesnel area for years in the pine stands and all it created was huge "blow down" sites that the forest companies had to clean up at considerable exspense and danger to the men.
They plant close together and then do thinning and also " juvenile spacing" later. this clears out the site to a " free to grow " state.Not all seedlings end up growing properly. Hope you understand this Jelvis. Mike

[Jelvis]

chinook I know what yer saying is for fun lol, but seriously no trees, no cover, no protection, no animals.
Jel .. No shirt no shoes, no problem for Kenny Chestny but deer need cover brother.

[blacklab]

So instead of those "massive" clearcuts, you'd rather see massive patches of dead trees piled up like pickup sticks.

[Ozone]

Cut it down or it will burn. Its simple really.

[Jelvis]

A lot depends on the location of the beetle kill or the after fire stands.
Lots of these work projects are there to put laid off workers on a salary to live.
Therefore the old saying, " Jobs are more important for the whole community than a few wild animals."
Some of the mills are going back to work to supply Japan wood after the soo nommi.
Jel .. This will get some of the cutters out of the valley and into the mountains, higher up where they should be, above wintering grounds, which is gooder.

[Downwind]

The other issue to keep in mind is that pine trees need a large amount of light to grow, they require clear cuts to grow, selective harvesting and replanting doesn't work. My biggest issue is the lack of diversified timber species. I understand that pine is more valuable based on its growth rate and how quickly it can be reharvested. But the issue with that is exactly what we see with the huge pine beetle epidemic. They can just bounce from tree to tree right through the entire province. Breaking up the types of trees could slow it down or prevent it from spreading as quickly or as greatly as it did in the future.

[field marshal]

Clear cuts are a benefit to most large animals. Produce lots of nice yummy food for them. The reason moose made it's way to southern BC probably had much to do with following clear cuts.
Actually I believe the southern moose migration had more to do with extensive forest fires than logging ? Although nowadays logging has certainly aided moose browse and of course they do very well at the heads of the big inlets where this occurs!-------Cheers----Field Marshal.

[Mountain Hunter]

Lots of good info on this thread from most people.

But, comments have ranged from wet interior and coastal forests, to central BC lodgepole pine forests, to Douglas fir interior forests....and all have different natural disturbance sizes and intervals. So, we're not really on the same page, the original post was concerning large clearcuts in the interior (I presume), so not sure if the clearcuts in question are dominated by lodgepole pine or Douglas fir?

Horse and selective logging may be better in old-growth Douglas fir mule deer winter range, large clearcuts may be better taking the place of large fires in lodgepole pine (beetle killed) forests, and patch cutting in old-growth high elevation forests may be more appropriate, or not harvesting at all in rare or protected ecosystems, etc...logging is not going to stop any time soon in BC and most people in the forest industry care about the future of those forests and the wildlife that live there, and there are good examples and poor examples of current forest management. But overall forest harvesting is good for most ungulates, except mt caribou (but there's more to that issue than logging), and in 4-10 yrs of regeneration moose will love the willows in wetter sites, elk and deer browsing aspen and forbs in drier sites, heck even sheep in high elevation regen cutblocks in the Rockies.

It may seem the gov't doesn't care about the state of our forests and wildlife but I think the gov't people on the ground do, they're just under-funded and under-staffed for the most part, and a lot of issues in this province are going unnoticed and not addressed. Discussions, such as this thread, are good for us to voice our concerns because if you combine those clearcuts with the recreational home/resort developments in rural areas, oil and gas development, etc. then a lot of work needs to be done for healthy wildlife populations to continue in this province! Otherwise we will all be hunting only whitetail deer and coyotes in the future. OK, that's just my opinion.

[J_T]

Cut it down or it will burn. Its simple really.
Or leave it and it loses any economic value it might have. If it burns, it costs to put it out. Good forest management. It's not a living forest if the pine is all dead. Take er down and start over.

[Jelvis]

Moose love old burns, with black trees and the forest floor lighting up and bringing the willow into new browsing. In some burns around the southern interior in mule deer habitat, the government allowed clear cut logging of the burnt trees.
Why all the burnt trees? If they thought a bit they could have left some for the deer to at least hide in or travel through.
But no they cut every one down anyways. I would have left some burnt trees for the many mule deer and the few moose that winter in the area.
It does get bush back of course but the first few years the deer stick out as they move across the openings between hills, bluffs, and on the ridges.
Jel .. Hey I still like the forest service and moe as well, it's just hard to take the first several years seeing that timber gone where it used to be for decades ..

[Sitkaspruce]

Been at this game for 15+ years and have seen the beetle start and grow to become the epidemic it was before it is slowly slowing down.

Another thing to remember is an Old Growth tree in the interior is over 121 years of age, so pine and spruce die a lot faster than the coast tree. Loggiing them gets the best $$$ for value, before they go decadent.

Companies have 15 years from first day of harvesting to get a blck to free to grow and sufficantly restocked (1.5 meters in height and 90% sutable area covered with the desirable species)

Lots more info I can give, but you can find most info on the web.

Cheers

SS

[Jelvis]

It's too bad they don't put the new roads they build for access to the forest out of commission and back to slope. They are supposed to but it seems they use the excuse of replanting or fire access to save the time and money to fix it right.
JP .. If your going to log the timber at least do it to the proper way and finish the job.
Peter Jack's Son .. Amerillo by mornin .. Do more ee eh .. Do it right or not at all ..

[Boner]

I've planted a lot of trees, and the hardest blocks I have ever planted have been the horse logged ones, and the best ones have been soil disturbed clear cuts with the slash piled and burned off. With a hot summer, conifers grow the best in mineral soil, and it's hard to screef out a hole in a brushy block. You end up digging a hole thru slash to get to the mineral, and then the hole fills up with water in the colder months and freezes out the seedling, or it gets too little sunlight.

The pine's dead. Might as well log as much as we can while the wood's still decent. And FWIW, there is lots of new vegetation in the dead pine stands, the willow and alder is coming up exceptionally well. They both produce oxygen from photosynthesis.

[moosinaround]

Yah but making a moon scape is not the answer in wild life winter range, I know select logging with horses can give better forest floor protection and leave some canopy to hold the snow and give some valuable oxygen to our areas.
Select horse logging only in sensitive winter range from now on.
Jel. Now you can see through the forest of select logging and still see some healthy trees.
No balding, in the range of winter, we need cover for protection of wind and cold.

Jelly, horse logging is a tool. It is not the end all be all answer. Clearcuts mimic large natural disturbances such as forest fires and beetle infestations as well as blowndown ares. We as humans use the fiber from these disturbances to operate as humans. Silviculture, which is the art and science of growing trees, trys to mimic what happens in nature. I agree that there are some silviculture systems out there that could be used which are more ecosystem appropriate, but in the end clearcutting is the most effective way to do business. Forest companies as well as the BCTS try to deactivate as many roads as they can, but there is a price for this activity. There are also liabilities these licencees face in the form of access for fire fighting, silviculture activities ect. The land base is managed for so many things now days, there are many stakeholders interested in the dirt, trees, water, wildlife and air of our province. Managing these resources is difficult, and seems easy to us armchair biologists, RPF's, Regional managers, environmentalists!!!! Moosin

[moosinaround]

I've planted a lot of trees, and the hardest blocks I have ever planted have been the horse logged ones, and the best ones have been soil disturbed clear cuts with the slash piled and burned off. With a hot summer, conifers grow the best in mineral soil, and it's hard to screef out a hole in a brushy block. You end up digging a hole thru slash to get to the mineral, and then the hole fills up with water in the colder months and freezes out the seedling, or it gets too little sunlight.

The pine's dead. Might as well log as much as we can while the wood's still decent. And FWIW, there is lots of new vegetation in the dead pine stands, the willow and alder is coming up exceptionally well. They both produce oxygen from photosynthesis.
Boner, how long ago was it that you planted? They microsite plant now days, and try to keep the seedlings as high in the soil profile as they can. The best and warmest soils are closest to the LFH, and humus layer of the soil profile. Microsites that are higher in the microtopography of the block are chosen, as they warm up the fastest, and are also the dryer of the microsites. Moosin

[budismyhorse]

Yah but making a moon scape is not the answer in wild life winter range, I know select logging with horses can give better forest floor protection and leave some canopy to hold the snow and give some valuable oxygen to our areas.
Select horse logging only in sensitive winter range from now on.
Jel. Now you can see through the forest of select logging and still see some healthy trees.
No balding, in the range of winter, we need cover for protection of wind and cold.


Just like in Alberta and Sask eh Jelvis........the place is damn near barren except for the calgary zoo!!

Stick to a subject you know have the slightest idea about......like the BC potential of black bears or something....

[seanps]

This is related, I suppose.

A few months ago I was talking to two biologists hired by MoE to survey deer populations in the Whistler/Pemberton area. It was their work that led to the LEH for does in the Pemberton area last season.

They told me that B.C. is nearing carrying capacity for deer, primarily because of clear-cutting and other logging that has led to prime feeding habitat for deer. This huge spike in the deer population has led to a rise in the wolf population as well, as the populations tend to grow/fall with each other.

[goatdancer]

Of course replanting is going to be done faster. What is going to get you a better vegetable, digging up a plot of soil and planting seeds and caring for them, or tossing some carrot seeds on your lawn?

Some areas are replanted to get the best crop of trees possible based on site conditions, while other times the particular species or target crop is better suited from natural regeneration. Around 100 Mile area for years there was very little planting done, as there would be too many pine trees sprout up from dropped cones during harvest that they would have to be thinned out, much less putting EXTRA trees in the ground.

Thanks for the info. Always made me wonder about the reason for the natural regeneration.

[Boner]

Boner, how long ago was it that you planted? They microsite plant now days, and try to keep the seedlings as high in the soil profile as they can. The best and warmest soils are closest to the LFH, and humus layer of the soil profile. Microsites that are higher in the microtopography of the block are chosen, as they warm up the fastest, and are also the dryer of the microsites. Moosin

Microsite planting. You mean 50% rookie interior planting single stem species on the northeast side of stumps? Or coastal planting with 5 species and hitting the best spots for each species? I understand micrositing, it's very important. It's often not done properly though with larger companies with high turnover.

You bet, different species of plugs grow better in different soils. Black wet soil for spruce, but not so wet that your shovel squishes when making the hole. Red rot's ok to plant if it smears, and try to get some dirt in the mix. Pine and sometimes doug fir for the rocky soil and the burns. Actually pine everywhere that's dry enough for it. Spruce if it isn't. Dripline, density, naturals, everything factors into starting a healthy forest. Different specifications all over the province depending on who's forest...

My point was that clearcuts are easier to deal with silviculture-wise. There's usually less slash and you can easily get to the proper medium to plant seedlings.

[moosinaround]

Exactly!! Sounds like you were listening!;) I agree with you! Moosin