native fisheries "out of control"

[sarg]

read this in the local paper today and figured i'll share it.


By Jeff Nagel - BC Local News (?subject=BC%20Local%20News%20-%20Illegal%20trade%20in%20native-caught%20salmon%20rampant:%20DFO)
Published: May 18, 2011 5:00 PM
Updated: May 18, 2011 5:57 PM
Aboriginal fisheries on the lower Fraser River are "out of control" and vast amounts of salmon supposed to go strictly for food, social and ceremonial purposes are instead sold on the black market.
That's the assessment of Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) staff tabled in evidence this week at the Cohen Commission into the decline of Fraser sockeye.
DFO investigators estimated 97 per cent of lower Fraser sockeye harvested under aboriginal food fisheries are sold, according to one document summarizing internal department concerns after an April 2010 meeting.
Scott Coultish, who heads DFO's Intelligence and Investigation Services branch, defended the figure before the commission Tuesday, saying it reflects staff estimates.
That and other evidence filed at the inquiry gave fresh weight to long-running claims of widespread native poaching and illegal sale of salmon.
"The root cause of illegal harvest is the sale of that product," said the 2010 document.
A 2006 operational intelligence assessment by DFO's Special Investigations Unit warned illegal sales of First Nations-caught fish is widespread across B.C. via back door dealing to restaurants and fish shops as well as door-to-door sales.
"The FSC (food, social and ceremonial) First Nations fishery on the Lower Fraser River is largely out of control and should be considered in all contexts, a commercial fishery," the assessment said, warning DFO is "unable to effectively control the illegal sales."
Various methods and levels of sophistication allow First Nations-caught salmon to be laundered into regular commercial markets, it added.
The assessment called for more effort to identify and charge retail buyers in the Lower Mainland and said more resources are needed to step up enforcement.
The findings were in response to a 2005 probe by fishery officers who suspected large amounts of First Nations-caught sockeye was going into cold storage at outlets across the Lower Mainland for later illegal sale.
Project Ice Storm was an audit of 110 Lower Mainland fish plants that found 345,000 sockeye in storage as of September 2005.
That was the end of a season where low sockeye returns meant no commercial fishery was allowed, nor was any aboriginal economic opportunity fishing (a limited for-profit commercial fishery for First Nations.)
All the fish in the plants was therefore FSC fish and much of it seemed packaged for sale.
But the investigation ran out of funding, DFO officers never got proof any of the frozen salmon were sold and no prosecutions resulted, the inquiry was told.
Randy Nelson, DFO's director of conservation and protection in the Pacific region, said further budget cuts expected will likely continue to limit the department's ability to target illegal sales and poaching.
Although it's impossible to say how much illegal fishing happens, Nelson told the inquiry he believes it may account for hundreds of thousands of sockeye vanishing each year, but not millions.
Many people fish illegally, he said, not just First Nations.
Even when poachers are caught many never pay their fines.
There's more than $1 million in outstanding fines for illegal fishing in the Pacific region, according to an update tabled at the inquiry.
Sto:lo fisher advisor Ernie Crey, speaking outside the hearings, dismissed the allegation large amounts of sockeye are illegally sold by First Nations.
He said aboriginal people don't use traditional preservation methods as much and have increasingly turned to industrial freezers.
"It's not prohibited," Crey said. "We can do that if we choose, along with all other Canadians."
He said DFO wrongly assumed the fish in 2005 was destined for the black market.
"They don't have any direct evidence that's the case," he said.
B.C. Conservative party leader John Cummins said he feels vindicated by the evidence presented this week.
The longtime commercial fishermen was fined $200 in Surrey court Monday for his role in a 2002 protest fishery that tried to shame DFO into cracking down on aboriginal food fish sales.
"It just underscores what we have been protesting and saying all these years," Cummins said.
He said he doesn't blame First Nations for the entire downturn of Fraser sockeye, but he said they are part of the problem.
"It makes the management of the fishery so much more difficult for the department when they don't know how many are going upstream," Cummins said.
"The resource is at risk. If we don't do the right thing, we're going to lose it."
Cummins has not yet paid the latest $200 fine nor another one for $300 handed down last December for another fishing protest in 2001.

[Steeleco]

This is always a very contentious issue both in the public eye and here on HBC. I don't like it as much as the next guy, but in the end, if there's nobody buying the fish, they've no reason to catch them.

[Jagermeister]

"He said DFO wrongly assumed the fish in 2005 was destined for the black market."
"They don't have any direct evidence that's the case," he said.

Ernie...Ernie....

DFO said, "But the investigation ran out of funding, DFO officers never got proof any of the frozen salmon were sold and no prosecutions resulted, the inquiry was told.."

Otherwise DFO would have had you by the "gunnies".

[Johnnybear]

This is always a very contentious issue both in the public eye and here on HBC. I don't like it as much as the next guy, but in the end, if there's nobody buying the fish, they've no reason to catch them.

These publications of late I hope will help the "buying public" notice what they are doing is very wrong. These native fisheries sure have been popping up alot in the news lately and I think it is a good thing. The more attention to the issue the better.

[sarg]

the sad thing is a lot of people know the issues and just dont care and by the fish any ways, i think the people that buy the fish should be fine as well (if cought), but it a big issue and it need to be dealt with or our kids or there kids will not have a chance to enjoys fishing the mighty fraser. i'm glad to read this kind of stuff in the paper, hopefully we will start saying it on the 6 o'clock news.

[CanuckShooter]

read this in the local paper today and figured i'll share it.


By Jeff Nagel - BC Local News (?subject=BC%20Local%20News%20-%20Illegal%20trade%20in%20native-caught%20salmon%20rampant:%20DFO)
Published: May 18, 2011 5:00 PM
Updated: May 18, 2011 5:57 PM
Aboriginal fisheries on the lower Fraser River are "out of control" and vast amounts of salmon supposed to go strictly for food, social and ceremonial purposes are instead sold on the black market.
That's the assessment of Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) staff tabled in evidence this week at the Cohen Commission into the decline of Fraser sockeye.
DFO investigators estimated 97 per cent of lower Fraser sockeye harvested under aboriginal food fisheries are sold, according to one document summarizing internal department concerns after an April 2010 meeting.
Scott Coultish, who heads DFO's Intelligence and Investigation Services branch, defended the figure before the commission Tuesday, saying it reflects staff estimates.
That and other evidence filed at the inquiry gave fresh weight to long-running claims of widespread native poaching and illegal sale of salmon.
"The root cause of illegal harvest is the sale of that product," said the 2010 document.
A 2006 operational intelligence assessment by DFO's Special Investigations Unit warned illegal sales of First Nations-caught fish is widespread across B.C. via back door dealing to restaurants and fish shops as well as door-to-door sales.
"The FSC (food, social and ceremonial) First Nations fishery on the Lower Fraser River is largely out of control and should be considered in all contexts, a commercial fishery," the assessment said, warning DFO is "unable to effectively control the illegal sales."
Various methods and levels of sophistication allow First Nations-caught salmon to be laundered into regular commercial markets, it added.
The assessment called for more effort to identify and charge retail buyers in the Lower Mainland and said more resources are needed to step up enforcement.
The findings were in response to a 2005 probe by fishery officers who suspected large amounts of First Nations-caught sockeye was going into cold storage at outlets across the Lower Mainland for later illegal sale.
Project Ice Storm was an audit of 110 Lower Mainland fish plants that found 345,000 sockeye in storage as of September 2005.
That was the end of a season where low sockeye returns meant no commercial fishery was allowed, nor was any aboriginal economic opportunity fishing (a limited for-profit commercial fishery for First Nations.)
All the fish in the plants was therefore FSC fish and much of it seemed packaged for sale.
But the investigation ran out of funding, DFO officers never got proof any of the frozen salmon were sold and no prosecutions resulted, the inquiry was told.
Randy Nelson, DFO's director of conservation and protection in the Pacific region, said further budget cuts expected will likely continue to limit the department's ability to target illegal sales and poaching.
Although it's impossible to say how much illegal fishing happens, Nelson told the inquiry he believes it may account for hundreds of thousands of sockeye vanishing each year, but not millions.
Many people fish illegally, he said, not just First Nations.
Even when poachers are caught many never pay their fines.
There's more than $1 million in outstanding fines for illegal fishing in the Pacific region, according to an update tabled at the inquiry.
Sto:lo fisher advisor Ernie Crey, speaking outside the hearings, dismissed the allegation large amounts of sockeye are illegally sold by First Nations.
He said aboriginal people don't use traditional preservation methods as much and have increasingly turned to industrial freezers.
"It's not prohibited," Crey said. "We can do that if we choose, along with all other Canadians."
He said DFO wrongly assumed the fish in 2005 was destined for the black market.
"They don't have any direct evidence that's the case," he said.
B.C. Conservative party leader John Cummins said he feels vindicated by the evidence presented this week.
The longtime commercial fishermen was fined $200 in Surrey court Monday for his role in a 2002 protest fishery that tried to shame DFO into cracking down on aboriginal food fish sales.
"It just underscores what we have been protesting and saying all these years," Cummins said.
He said he doesn't blame First Nations for the entire downturn of Fraser sockeye, but he said they are part of the problem.
"It makes the management of the fishery so much more difficult for the department when they don't know how many are going upstream," Cummins said.
"The resource is at risk. If we don't do the right thing, we're going to lose it."
Cummins has not yet paid the latest $200 fine nor another one for $300 handed down last December for another fishing protest in 2001.

Is this Cummins fellow being charged for fishing out of season?? {poaching} Or for participating in a harmless protest?? I never realized you could be fined for protesting???????????????

[MuleyMadness]

Is this Cummins fellow being charged for fishing out of season?? {poaching} Or for participating in a harmless protest?? I never realized you could be fined for protesting???????????????

I do believe, CS, his protesting took the form of fishing out of season (along with a lot of others). So in that case, I would say you can be fined for protesting, if your method of protesting is against the law :)

[CanuckShooter]

I do believe, CS, his protesting took the form of fishing out of season (along with a lot of others). So in that case, I would say you can be fined for protesting, if your method of protesting is against the law :)

A paltry $200 or $300 fine isn't much of a detriment for participating in a protest that includes poaching fish?? I think hearing this fellows views on FN issues is going to be a gang-buster!!!!

[mjmbc]

when they are protesting they set thier nets where there arent any fish . at least he pays his fines , if as a group we all stood up to get the fisheries that are based on race closed there would be a lot less of this type of thing going on

[CanuckShooter]

when they are protesting they set thier nets where there arent any fish . at least he pays his fines , if as a group we all stood up to get the fisheries that are based on race closed there would be a lot less of this type of thing going on

They set the nets where there were no fish??? Boy they must be pretty magical knowing where no fish would go!!! I don't buy that unless the nets were in the meadow next to the river.

If you read the last line in the article he hasn't paid the fine levied in December...that's five [5] months in arrears.

Don't you find it interesting that so many will protest the indian fishery....but not worry about the commercial guys getting the lions share of halibut and salmon openings over the resident sports fisherman??? I think the next time they have a commercial coho opening we should all go toss our nets in to protest them not being limited to 2 fish per day..........

[mjmbc]

we live in a free society go ahead protest the commercial opening if you want , hey well your at it protest all the spotfishing lodges along the coast too they are commercial fisheries as well do what ever floats your boat at least those fisheries arent based on race. by the way look at who owns a good portion of the salmon fleet anymore . if the natives want a traditional fisherie then by all means doit in the traditional way ie ; in canoes rather than motorboats,fishwheels, dipnets and spears get rid of thier monofiliment gill nets . supposed to be a food fisherieand for cremonial purposes

[CanuckShooter]

Sportsfishing lodges are hotels......they don't hold a quota for thousands of pounds of prime coho salmon....while the individual fisherman that rents their boats is restricted to a couple of fish per day.

BTW the FN fishery isn't based upon race, it's based upon agreements made Nation to Nation......as you are probably not aware there are many thousands of STATUS holding individuals that don't have one drop of Aboriginal DNA and yet they are afforded 'aboriginal fishing rights'....so much for race based accusations.;-)

[mjmbc]

yes actually im fully aware of the aboriginal fishing rights and how they all work, furthermore as for non aboriginals that dont have a drop of dna that have status some where in the last i belive its 3 generations there must have been some in thier genepool in order to get status so its still race based imo. remember not all status indians are allowed to net only those designated by the band . but when they have a food fisherie then everyone in the band can, its also race related when you can go out and sell thier ceremonial food fish . these fish were supposed to be designated for the band members themselves not meant to be sold to whomever will pay the highest price . im not argueing with you on this point anymore ive done enough argueing on this matter and actually this story in the last couple of weeks in another thread this is old news. Btw when you have a band leader laughing in the face of fisheries saying you cant prove it because you ran out of money during the investigation , which isnt exactlly the way it whent down it was more like the funding for the investigation got pulled for political reasons thats why it was shut down have a great day canuck shooter see ya

[CanuckShooter]

yes actually im fully aware of the aboriginal fishing rights and how they all work, furthermore as for non aboriginals that dont have a drop of dna that have status some where in the last i belive its 3 generations there must have been some in thier genepool in order to get status so its still race based imo. remember not all status indians are allowed to net only those designated by the band . but when they have a food fisherie then everyone in the band can, its also race related when you can go out and sell thier ceremonial food fish . these fish were supposed to be designated for the band members themselves not meant to be sold to whomever will pay the highest price . im not argueing with you on this point anymore ive done enough argueing on this matter and actually this story in the last couple of weeks in another thread this is old news. Btw when you have a band leader laughing in the face of fisheries saying you cant prove it because you ran out of money during the investigation , which isnt exactlly the way it whent down it was more like the funding for the investigation got pulled for political reasons thats why it was shut down have a great day canuck shooter see ya

Prior to 1985 when a non-aboriginal married a status indian they were automatically given status as full members of the band. They could then divorce, leave the band, marry again..and all the kids would have status...thus status indians without one drop of native dna. And then there are adoptions....adopted kids prior to 1985 were given full status also....btw it's not arguing it's educating you about something you don't seem to be aware of. ;-)

[Ioneth]

Prior to 1985 when a non-aboriginal married a status indian they were automatically given status as full members of the band. They could then divorce, leave the band, marry again..and all the kids would have status...thus status indians without one drop of native dna. And then there are adoptions....adopted kids prior to 1985 were given full status also....btw it's not arguing it's educating you about something you don't seem to be aware of. ;-)

If a none status woman marred a status man she was given status however if a status woman married a none status man she lost her status.

[abbyfireguy]

I don't really care who married who or who is status and who isn't. Fish that are taken and stored in warehouses against the time when they can be transported and sold are definately not covered under any treaty. They are not Food,sustinence or ceremmonial fish and therefore are harvested illegally.
Ernie Crey is and always will be a masterful spin-doctor who just ignores any arguments and barfs up the same crap about FN fishing rights at nauseum. Its getting way past old Ernie,get some new info and accountability. I don't believe much if anything he spouts off about.

[coyotebc]

The assessment called for more effort to identify and charge retail buyers in the Lower Mainland and said more resources are needed to step up enforcement.


Funny you are a drug dealer, the cops want to go after you more than your customer.
You steal or sell stolen property the cops want you more than your customer.
You are an aboriginal fish poacher and they want to go after your customers more than you.
Anyone living here on the coast knows how big the problem is

[Ioneth]

Funny you are a drug dealer, the cops want to go after you more than your customer.
You steal or sell stolen property the cops want you more than your customer.
You are an aboriginal fish poacher and they want to go after your customers more than you.
Anyone living here on the coast knows how big the problem is

I can't remember the name of the TV show but its on national geographic channel about California wild life officers. In one episode they had a lady with a cooler full of fish drive out to fish markets to try and sell her fish and then fined anyone who attempted to buy them.

It isn't just here that that happens. I guess everywhere they figure if people won't buy it then no one will catch it?
The fish are being legally caught but illegally sold. I guess its easier to catch someone buying fish illegally than it is to prove someone is fishing legally with the intent to sell them illegally

[Tripitaka]

They set the nets where there were no fish??? Boy they must be pretty magical knowing where no fish would go!!!

I seem to have no problems finding all the places where the fish aren't! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[SUAFOYT]

Well here we go again on a FN topic that will surely get locked. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that this practice is going on and will continue as long as the potential for the race issue is to be at the centre of it rather than a fish issue continues. The only surprising thing in all of this is that it took DFO this long to admit to an obvious problem. The response to this article to me is a major well DUH!

[pork n beans]

i might chime in here. The media likes to associate all the food fish in freezers and food fish sold with poaching. First Nation fishermen on the fraser river have no need to bother poaching fish on the river in any appreciable numbers because the legal food fishery is quite liberal and they can catch enough figh then to satiate any demand that they may have for fish. Also the fishing looks rampant and out of control and uncounted by the general public but DFO has a very good system in place to determine catches of fish. Fraser river native fisheries are betterr monitored than the commercial fisheries in actuality.

their fishery is a legla right protected by the constitution and they fought in court to get these rights. DFo's hands are tied in the legal sense when it comes to fn fisheries in many ways.

the other thing is supply and demand makes FN fish an attractive commodity. commercial fishermen sell their fish to canadian fish for 1.25 a lb and then most of it gets exported or they try to sell it back to the consumer at save on foods in the same town that the fsih was landed for 13$ a lb. and then it's only fresh ly landed during two or three or no openings a summer. or do you buy the stuff for 12$ a fish from you friendly neighbourhood native guy all summer long and it's all sunshine and roses.

the fish caught by FN is all accounted for and you cut jimmy p out of the loop, that's why people buy native fish. cuz they want fish more than they care about all that other shit. the fn fishery is how the commercial fishery used to be some time ago. small dips of fishbeing caught more frequently than less big openings. it's the same shit just caught by different people.

DFO will lose the sale of fish battle in court eventually, so they're trying to accomodate fn entry into the commercial fisheries in a mutally agreeable organized fashion rather than spend millions on legal battles to end up with a mish mash mess.

isn't it better if the resource extracted locally gets used locally and consumed locally i mean isn't it wierd that we catch fish here send it somehwere else and then import pork chops from somehwere else? why don't we jsut eat locally caught fish who cares who catches it it's still money and food in the commumity whether it's native guy down the street or white guy downt he street.

one note though is that lot's of FN who food fish on the coast saltwater folks are commercial as well, the fraser river guys ahve always caught fish and traded adn stuff too so it is historically inaccurate to say that they just caught enough for food adn never traded/sold in the past. they fished as hard as they could and traded surplus for stuff they didn't have in their area. so selling food fish is some concept that white gov't put on them, when the govt made it illegal for them to sell fish so the white cannery owners in theory were handed the resource.

with that rationale you are more right to buy native fish than to let jimmy p get a nickel of it.

[winchester284]

i might chime in here. The media likes to associate all the food fish in freezers and food fish sold with poaching. First Nation fishermen on the fraser river have no need to bother poaching fish on the river in any appreciable numbers because the legal food fishery is quite liberal and they can catch enough figh then to satiate any demand that they may have for fish. Also the fishing looks rampant and out of control and uncounted by the general public but DFO has a very good system in place to determine catches of fish. Fraser river native fisheries are betterr monitored than the commercial fisheries in actuality.

their fishery is a legla right protected by the constitution and they fought in court to get these rights. DFo's hands are tied in the legal sense when it comes to fn fisheries in many ways.

the other thing is supply and demand makes FN fish an attractive commodity. commercial fishermen sell their fish to canadian fish for 1.25 a lb and then most of it gets exported or they try to sell it back to the consumer at save on foods in the same town that the fsih was landed for 13$ a lb. and then it's only fresh ly landed during two or three or no openings a summer. or do you buy the stuff for 12$ a fish from you friendly neighbourhood native guy all summer long and it's all sunshine and roses.

the fish caught by FN is all accounted for and you cut jimmy p out of the loop, that's why people buy native fish. cuz they want fish more than they care about all that other shit. the fn fishery is how the commercial fishery used to be some time ago. small dips of fishbeing caught more frequently than less big openings. it's the same shit just caught by different people.

DFO will lose the sale of fish battle in court eventually, so they're trying to accomodate fn entry into the commercial fisheries in a mutally agreeable organized fashion rather than spend millions on legal battles to end up with a mish mash mess.

isn't it better if the resource extracted locally gets used locally and consumed locally i mean isn't it wierd that we catch fish here send it somehwere else and then import pork chops from somehwere else? why don't we jsut eat locally caught fish who cares who catches it it's still money and food in the commumity whether it's native guy down the street or white guy downt he street.

one note though is that lot's of FN who food fish on the coast saltwater folks are commercial as well, the fraser river guys ahve always caught fish and traded adn stuff too so it is historically inaccurate to say that they just caught enough for food adn never traded/sold in the past. they fished as hard as they could and traded surplus for stuff they didn't have in their area. so selling food fish is some concept that white gov't put on them, when the govt made it illegal for them to sell fish so the white cannery owners in theory were handed the resource.

with that rationale you are more right to buy native fish than to let jimmy p get a nickel of it.

That there is a post with a lot of words but little substance.

Fact: Natives monitor natives, the system isn't even close to accurate on how many fish are being caught.
Fact: The law says selling native food fish is illegal. It's irrelevant how the law got that way or if you think it's just or not.
Fact: It's illegal to buy fish from other than a retailer or a non-commercial fisherman. Read the regs!

[emkul]

Can't prove it what a bunch of bull $hit go to port alberni there will be fn on the side of the road or sign's point down drive ways 7days a week that say fresh fish just give them 15$ they give you fish doesn't that prove it


As for the first protest fishery it was most of the comercial fleet and they were catching lots of fish there was guys giving them away at the warf in campbell river.That one was because there was lots of fish and the fn were fishing in johnstone straight 7 days a week with no comercial or recreational openings .The fisheries tried to charge a bunch of them judge threw it out of court said you can't have a raced based fishery sounds to me the guy that got the 200$ fine should of had a better lawyer

[pork n beans]

haha. true, true, and true. but it ain't gonna change the reality of it.

BTW.
Port alberni bands have sales agreements, they're often allowed to sell their fish. so the fish for sale signs are legal.

Also there's no incentive for the natives to misrepresent their catch to the catch monitors. there's no catch limit on food fishing. also the numbers counted and the monitors are also audited all the time by DFO. there's a fairly rigorous program of counting the fish caught.

regardless the argument will continue, everybody will get mad at everybody else adn blame and point fingers until there's no fish left to argue over.

wouldn't it be nice if people would be happy with what they've got instead of being pissed about what someone else has. i don't think getting all fussed over the fish is productive or healthy. i've been there and don't have the fight left in me anymore. it's better to work constructively with the way the world really works than to fight over how you think it should be and why it isn't that way.

Good luck to everyone who has a vested interest here. i hope a workable solution is acheived before the end of my time.

[pork n beans]

hey winchester 284 how do you know the system isn't even accurate?

don't want to start a pissing match with you just wanna hear your facts. I bet i got a better idea than you as to how it works. i've had this argument so many times it's not even funny, i've heard all the bs dock talk and pissing and moaning from all sectors a guy can handle without losing it.

if you have proof of inaccurate counting let me know. if you want i'll explain how the fish are accounted for. who wants to hear the real story? anybody intersted or do you all just want to hear a bunch of moan and piss.

[winchester284]

hey winchester 284 how do you know the system isn't even accurate?

don't want to start a pissing match with you just wanna hear your facts. I bet i got a better idea than you as to how it works. i've had this argument so many times it's not even funny, i've heard all the bs dock talk and pissing and moaning from all sectors a guy can handle without losing it.

if you have proof of inaccurate counting let me know. if you want i'll explain how the fish are accounted for. who wants to hear the real story? anybody intersted or do you all just want to hear a bunch of moan and piss.

I have spent a lot of time on the Fraser over the years and in that time I've met and spoken with a number of band members. They are not hesitant to admit that "they do what they want on the river, not what DFO wants them to do." It may be easier for the band monitors to count the fish in a high visibility area like the lower Fraser, it's difficult in much of the Fraser up to Hope and virtually impossible in the Fraser canyon. While most of the legal nets probably report their catches to their band fisheries monitors, the illegal nets do not report their catches. And why would they?

There's no question they run illegal nets, ask anyone who has spent any time on the river...

Feel free to share your knowledge on the subject and we can compare notes. :)

[dryflyguy57]

i might chime in here. The media likes to associate all the food fish in freezers and food fish sold with poaching. First Nation fishermen on the fraser river have no need to bother poaching fish on the river in any appreciable numbers because the legal food fishery is quite liberal and they can catch enough figh then to satiate any demand that they may have for fish. Also the fishing looks rampant and out of control and uncounted by the general public but DFO has a very good system in place to determine catches of fish. Fraser river native fisheries are betterr monitored than the commercial fisheries in actuality.

their fishery is a legla right protected by the constitution and they fought in court to get these rights. DFo's hands are tied in the legal sense when it comes to fn fisheries in many ways.

the other thing is supply and demand makes FN fish an attractive commodity. commercial fishermen sell their fish to canadian fish for 1.25 a lb and then most of it gets exported or they try to sell it back to the consumer at save on foods in the same town that the fsih was landed for 13$ a lb. and then it's only fresh ly landed during two or three or no openings a summer. or do you buy the stuff for 12$ a fish from you friendly neighbourhood native guy all summer long and it's all sunshine and roses.

the fish caught by FN is all accounted for and you cut jimmy p out of the loop, that's why people buy native fish. cuz they want fish more than they care about all that other shit. the fn fishery is how the commercial fishery used to be some time ago. small dips of fishbeing caught more frequently than less big openings. it's the same shit just caught by different people.

DFO will lose the sale of fish battle in court eventually, so they're trying to accomodate fn entry into the commercial fisheries in a mutally agreeable organized fashion rather than spend millions on legal battles to end up with a mish mash mess.

isn't it better if the resource extracted locally gets used locally and consumed locally i mean isn't it wierd that we catch fish here send it somehwere else and then import pork chops from somehwere else? why don't we jsut eat locally caught fish who cares who catches it it's still money and food in the commumity whether it's native guy down the street or white guy downt he street.

one note though is that lot's of FN who food fish on the coast saltwater folks are commercial as well, the fraser river guys ahve always caught fish and traded adn stuff too so it is historically inaccurate to say that they just caught enough for food adn never traded/sold in the past. they fished as hard as they could and traded surplus for stuff they didn't have in their area. so selling food fish is some concept that white gov't put on them, when the govt made it illegal for them to sell fish so the white cannery owners in theory were handed the resource.

with that rationale you are more right to buy native fish than to let jimmy p get a nickel of it.

Years ago at the first B C Survival Coalition meeting held in Richmond i had a native lady come up to me and say , You screwed us for the last hundred years and now we are going to screw you for the next 100 . It made me understand what the rationale was at the time and still is with some aboriginal fishers . By the way the only people on side with the Survival Coalition at the time was the Cattleman's Assoc . as they were concerned about water rights . The BCWF was nowhere to be seen and still isn't as far as i am concerned .

[ford1]

Let the First nations do what they want with the fish. It is better then letting them starve and if they make a buck then good on them. It's not like the small amount of first nations will have any detrimental effect to any fishery.

[winchester284]

Let the First nations do what they want with the fish. It is better then letting them starve and if they make a buck then good on them. It's not like the small amount of first nations will have any detrimental effect to any fishery.

Spoken like a true non-fisherman. Am I right?

[betteroffishing]

so to sumarise your views porknbeans , rosa parks should have just gotten comfortable in the back of the bus ?? it was the law at the time , and civil disobedience is what it took to end that race based inequall access to resources . i tip my hat to cummins and phill eidsvick and all the rest of the participants of the protest fisheries past and future. racially based rules have no place in a modern developed society , and laws that exist to cement them need to be re-done and re-done again till any foul odour is gone from them , its not so easy to throw your hands up in the air with a devil may care attitude when its you that is denied access to the front seats of the bus and it has nothing to do with who you are or what youve done , but rather has everything to do with what race you belong to.

[vortex hunter]

I Commercial fished for over two years .. I fished from 1999-2001 and I dont hate anybody but when someone says it's there right bullsh_t cause if the fish they caught was for there family why the heck do u need a boat load full.....................just my two cents

[ford1]

Spoken like a true non-fisherman. Am I right?

I fish, just not commercially.

[sarg]

I fish, just not commercially.
commercailly or not it screws everyone that fishies the river, there is no reason why we all can't have the some rule and regs when it comes to hunting and fishing, i can feed my family with my 2 fish a day and my 1 deer or moose a year so why can't the FN do the same? any thing more is just wastefull.
thats just my 2 cents for the day
sarg:)

[Ioneth]

I have spent a lot of time on the Fraser over the years and in that time I've met and spoken with a number of band members. They are not hesitant to admit that "they do what they want on the river, not what DFO wants them to do." It may be easier for the band monitors to count the fish in a high visibility area like the lower Fraser, it's difficult in much of the Fraser up to Hope and virtually impossible in the Fraser canyon. While most of the legal nets probably report their catches to their band fisheries monitors, the illegal nets do not report their catches. And why would they?

There's no question they run illegal nets, ask anyone who has spent any time on the river...

Feel free to share your knowledge on the subject and we can compare notes. :)

Here the monitors come to you and ask you your catch and sometimes take scale samples for DFO as soon as you step off your boat. and During FN sales openings there is actual paper work needed to be filled out and signed by the fisherman.



commercailly or not it screws everyone that fishies the river, there is no reason why we all can't have the some rule and regs when it comes to hunting and fishing, i can feed my family with my 2 fish a day and my 1 deer or moose a year so why can't the FN do the same? any thing more is just wastefull.
thats just my 2 cents for the day
sarg:)

FN have the same bag limits you do, they just do not have to pay for a license or tags. "Except" when it comes to their traditional territory in that case they may hunt out of season etc. as long as its for ceremonial / spiritual or for food. and they do not need to purchase a fresh water fishing license or species tags. but they are required by DFO to buy a tidal waters license. (that could just be for bands not out on the coast or island.)

Some bands in BC don't even have any fishing rights at all.

[mjmbc]

ive had this arguement many times as well and it just frustrates me . if you want to change the rules get together protest write your mp bring the issue to everones attn. tell your buddies to quit buying the fish off the natives if there isnt a market then it wont be worth there time or energy

[The Dude]

I used to share a house with a guy that always had a ton of Sockeye in his freezer. Wed have BBQs, Sushi, fill our faces with fresh Fraser Sockeye, life was good. At first i assumed he fished, or knew some sport fishermen, or got it off some commercial fishermen we knew.
Nope.
Turns out he got an 7-8 lb whole sockeye for five bucks. Five stinkin dollars. He had bags of them.
I asked him where he got them, and he told me some guy would come into his work lot (Moving Co.) and sell them from a truck. Guys would line up, and he'd sell as many as they'd like. Then he'd go to the next company lot, and do the same. Just like the Gutwagon at work, only precious red gold was in the back of the truck. I stopped eating it.
Several years later I was on the Fraser near Mission, working, and at lunch time was watching aluminum boats tend their gill nets.
They would pull them up, keep the Sockeye and Coho, and throw all the Chum, Pinks, whitefish and other 'worthless' bycatch over the side, dead, into the river.
I estimate they kept one in five fish.
I still have the video of this event, as I filmed them for 30 mins from the bank.
Make me sick? Yeah.
Do anything?
Racist *******.

I feel genuinely sorry for the DFO guys, I really do.

[CanuckShooter]

>>>>>the other thing is supply and demand makes FN fish an attractive commodity. commercial fishermen sell their fish to canadian fish for 1.25 a lb and then most of it gets exported or they try to sell it back to the consumer at save on foods in the same town that the fsih was landed for 13$ a lb. and then it's only fresh ly landed during two or three or no openings a summer. or do you buy the stuff for 12$ a fish from you friendly neighbourhood native guy all summer long and it's all sunshine and roses. <<<<

Are you saying there is over $11 per pound in mark up on commercial caught salmon??? WOW!!! It's no wonder people buy them at $12bucks per fish from the natives, just nothing like deep discounts.

[mjmbc]

as sportsmen most of us are lazy sit back and let someone else doit then when you looose some of your rights we bitch and whine well where were you when push came to shove did anyone write thier mp probablly not instead you said it wont go through when thirs a fisherie going on do ya band together go to the boat ramps and blockade nope if you want rights ya have to fight for them not just laybak and watch them get taken from you look at the gun registry ,we let that pass and you all say what a waste of money did anyone one of the millions of gun owners protest or write .GET OFF YOUR ASSES AND DO SOMETHING

[CanuckShooter]

as sportsmen most of us are lazy sit back and let someone else doit then when you looose some of your rights we bitch and whine well where were you when push came to shove did anyone write thier mp probablly not instead you said it wont go through when thirs a fisherie going on do ya band together go to the boat ramps and blockade nope if you want rights ya have to fight for them not just laybak and watch them get taken from you look at the gun registry ,we let that pass and you all say what a waste of money did anyone one of the millions of gun owners protest or write .GET OFF YOUR ASSES AND DO SOMETHING

You have RIGHTS covered under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms...and fishing for salmon isn't one of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms

[ford1]

You have RIGHTS covered under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms...and fishing for salmon isn't one of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms

Well said CanuckShooter.

[winchester284]

You have RIGHTS covered under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms...and fishing for salmon isn't one of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms

After conservation and then native food allocation the salmon are a public resource.

Of course the Charter of rights and freedoms doesn't give the right to fish for salmon. It also doesn't take that right away.

The Charter covers civil and political rights....

[Livewire322]

There is a point where it goes from a public right to raping a resource specifically for profit. The sad reality is that you can go to almost any res in BC am buy a whole salmon for $10 or less.
Last year in the thompson river area right around savona they allowed natives p use boats with sein nets to cath salmon they had a temporary fishery set up on the beach.

[pork n beans]

the set net fishery above mission is counted like this. the area is divided into 5 sections, based on catch rates. the set nets are tended adn the fish are landed at specific landing sites, usually close to the res, or boat ramp used by the guys cuz they hand bomb the fish from the boats to totes on trucks.

the set net spots are prettty much owned by individuals so theyre the same guys fishing, the fishermen land the fish at the landing adn the fish are counted the number of nets being fished and the hours the nets fish are recorded. this gives the catch rate per hour of the net. there's several landing spots in each zone of the river so one can derive an average catch rate per hour of net being fished. and get a profile of the change in fishing effort over the fishery usually 48-72 hours. a helicopter overflight is done once a day adn that gives a peak effort count. from the overflight you know by what factor to expand your recorded effort from teh landings by to represent the total effort. and thus you can derive catch.

so you see you don't have to counte every fish you sample the effort and catch and then expand based on peak effort and this gives you a pretty good estimation of catch.

the monitors are audited by dfo and some are really good, some are a bit unreliable but you get that with any thing. most of them have been doing that joba while and everybody knows the routine, the fishermen know the routine it's just business as usual.

some individuals are bad apples and fish out of the open times. you get that all over. but the problem really isn't rampant. as people think.

the groups are allowed to get permits to fish for special purposes if there isn't fish left over from teh weekend.

in reality they sold all the weekend fish and now need a few fish for an elders dinner or something and so they get extra time. it's not good but it is licenced and the fish are mostly accounted for.

so the fishery as it stands is well monitored whether or not you agree with it in principle is up to the individual. I just know that the way the world works this thing ain't going away.

Also as an aside the native fishery on the fraser river is better monitored than the commercial salmon fishery. there's tons of catch recording adn reporting in the commercial fishery but it isn't that carefully audited. the recreational salmon fishery has a fairly robust system to account for catch in most places.

Yes theres some fish not being accounted for in every fishery but it's pretty damn close, close enough to manage the fisheries without jeopardizing the resource.

every public resource is being raped specifically for profit, mining, forestry, fisheries, you can go into home depot and buy a 2 X 4 for 2$. nobody complains about that.

nobody complains that the guy with a commercial gillnet licence catches sockeye and sells them? even though he paid next to frig all for a licence 30 years ago.

i'm not dissing the commercial fleet either, it's how we build communites by the tax dollars and consumer power of the revenue generated from extracting and selling resources.

but the native fishery is big, visible, and most people don't know much about it. and it isnt' going away. that i know for fact.

[bc mike]

In 1774 when the Haida found Juan Perez sailing by and in 1778 when Captain Cook sailed into the Nootka Sound there was immediate trade. This included fish. This was a commercial transaction. I have no problem buying a few sockeye from the local natives. Every native gets a specific number of food fish. Some don't like to eat it. Some can't freeze or can them. They sell their dozen fish and get their $120 to but some groceries. We are not talking about native millionaires. 99.9% of them are simply puting other food on their table.

[pappy]

Non-natives come to this land harvest tons of fish, when everything gets regulated they blame the natives for overfishing and ruining it for everyone. Ha ha ha and then they complain about how everything is ruined for their future generations. Not until they f#cked it up for themselves do they see the wrong they did to others.

[winchester284]

In 1774 when the Haida found Juan Perez sailing by and in 1778 when Captain Cook sailed into the Nootka Sound there was immediate trade. This included fish. This was a commercial transaction. I have no problem buying a few sockeye from the local natives. Every native gets a specific number of food fish. Some don't like to eat it. Some can't freeze or can them. They sell their dozen fish and get their $120 to but some groceries. We are not talking about native millionaires. 99.9% of them are simply puting other food on their table.

Why don't you post your address so I can make a RAPP report.... You can't be so naive as to think that what you are doing is legal, do you??

[Livewire322]

Sounds like there's lot of people on here who support the natives. I think everyone should have equal opportunities for hunting and fishing, the fact that natives can pitlamp, and have fish and other game allocated specifically for "Sustinance" or village support when it doesn't always get used for these purposes. No one should Hve special privileges. If the salmon population is suffering then we should all receive cuts in our allocated shares including the commercial fishery and the native fisheries.
It pains me to see a single group of people rise above others with special privelages.

[Livewire322]

In 1774 when the Haida found Juan Perez sailing by and in 1778 when Captain Cook sailed into the Nootka Sound there was immediate trade. This included fish. This was a commercial transaction. I have no problem buying a few sockeye from the local natives. Every native gets a specific number of food fish. Some don't like to eat it. Some can't freeze or can them. They sell their dozen fish and get their $120 to but some groceries. We are not talking about native millionaires. 99.9% of them are simply puting other food on their table.
I agree entirely with winchester284. You are naive to think that. The only reason the natives should be allowed to harvest fish in these areas should be for sustenance. They shouldn't be allowed to sell it so that they can buy other food. That like me going out and harvesting a mule deer and selling it then going out and buying groceries.

[winchester284]

the set net fishery above mission is counted like this. the area is divided into 5 sections, based on catch rates. the set nets are tended adn the fish are landed at specific landing sites, usually close to the res, or boat ramp used by the guys cuz they hand bomb the fish from the boats to totes on trucks.

the set net spots are prettty much owned by individuals so theyre the same guys fishing, the fishermen land the fish at the landing adn the fish are counted the number of nets being fished and the hours the nets fish are recorded. this gives the catch rate per hour of the net. there's several landing spots in each zone of the river so one can derive an average catch rate per hour of net being fished. and get a profile of the change in fishing effort over the fishery usually 48-72 hours. a helicopter overflight is done once a day adn that gives a peak effort count. from the overflight you know by what factor to expand your recorded effort from teh landings by to represent the total effort. and thus you can derive catch.

so you see you don't have to counte every fish you sample the effort and catch and then expand based on peak effort and this gives you a pretty good estimation of catch.

the monitors are audited by dfo and some are really good, some are a bit unreliable but you get that with any thing. most of them have been doing that joba while and everybody knows the routine, the fishermen know the routine it's just business as usual.

some individuals are bad apples and fish out of the open times. you get that all over. but the problem really isn't rampant. as people think.

the groups are allowed to get permits to fish for special purposes if there isn't fish left over from teh weekend.

in reality they sold all the weekend fish and now need a few fish for an elders dinner or something and so they get extra time. it's not good but it is licenced and the fish are mostly accounted for.

so the fishery as it stands is well monitored whether or not you agree with it in principle is up to the individual. I just know that the way the world works this thing ain't going away.

Also as an aside the native fishery on the fraser river is better monitored than the commercial salmon fishery. there's tons of catch recording adn reporting in the commercial fishery but it isn't that carefully audited. the recreational salmon fishery has a fairly robust system to account for catch in most places.

Yes theres some fish not being accounted for in every fishery but it's pretty damn close, close enough to manage the fisheries without jeopardizing the resource.

every public resource is being raped specifically for profit, mining, forestry, fisheries, you can go into home depot and buy a 2 X 4 for 2$. nobody complains about that.

nobody complains that the guy with a commercial gillnet licence catches sockeye and sells them? even though he paid next to frig all for a licence 30 years ago.

i'm not dissing the commercial fleet either, it's how we build communites by the tax dollars and consumer power of the revenue generated from extracting and selling resources.

but the native fishery is big, visible, and most people don't know much about it. and it isnt' going away. that i know for fact.

I suggest you don't know a whole lot about how the native fish are counted above mission.

There may be 5 "stations", however fish are landed and driven away in the backs of cars, pickups and trucks at literally 100's of spots on the Fraser above Mission. And do you really think that the fish caught in the illegal nightly drift nets are actually counted?? Helicopter flights are conducted twice a day and never at night. DFO has 2 or 3 boats that patrol the river, however the natives have a communication network that lets them know if a boat is on the way and can stop their illegal drift before the boat shows up. Every year several recreational fishermen nearly lose their lives from having their engines hooked up on the hidden set nets that are rampant in the river. No one can quantify the number of fish being poached this way.

It's like trying to figure out the value of the marijuana trade in BC. Some have estimated it to be well over $3 billion per year, but no one knows.

I suggest the illegal trade of salmon is rampant and poached salmon numbers could easily exceed the "legally counted" salmon.

[pork n beans]

284, i did this for a living, i know what i'm saying. the river from Mission to Sawmill Creek is divided into 5 zones, there are several landing stations in each zone, i've been to all of them.

some set nets get lost adn can be a navigational hazard. there's lots of discarded fishing gear all over the coast, gear gets hung up and lost. it's one of the hazards of throwing fishing gear in the water sometimes you don't get it back.

the drifters are licenced now. DFO allowed drifting eventually because they would never win a court case if the no drift nets above mission rule was challenged by FN's, they're constitutionally allowed to fish by their preferred method, if the resource allows it. exact same reason FN are allowed to hunt with a spot light.

I ran that river all the time from steveston to Harrison, i flew it lots of times. the guys leave their lines and anchors out there, they don't want to lose nets,\. nets cost money, whenthe fishing is slow word is out gear is sparse, heavy effort during the sockeye fishing, really lots if there's sales. most of the fish above mission is caught in a few select spots by a few select individuals who have those spots.

the hot spot is below and above Yale,

the guys drift around Cheam because the set netting in that part of the river is not that good and they're looking to catch more fish, human nature.

I'll say it again, the FN's don't have to poach, they get so much time to fish legally that honestly there's no incentive to poach fish. the disposition of the fish once they're landed is a whole other story,

yup lots if not most of the fish gets sold to whoever, that has gone on forever and will continue. the cold storage lockers in the lower mainland do a brisk business off of FSC fish. the FN below sawmill creek catch anywhere from 300k to 800k sockeye in a year depending on run size. so the 345k fish in cold storage that another member posted is totally normal. It's a lot of fish but it's all legally caught and mostly accounted for. mark my word.

I understand all peoples frustration over the question of equality. it's a tough debate and it will take time to sort out.

sockeye are comin round in another month or so or right now if you live in the right place. hope there's enough so everyone gets theirs. i know i got about 2 left in the freezer til the straits open

good luck.

[bc mike]

Why don't you post your address so I can make a RAPP report.... You can't be so naive as to think that what you are doing is legal, do you??
Interesting character trait. You are going to tell on me because "I have no problem buying a few sockeye from the local natives" . I am so scard. Like a little kid in a playground. I see you are a financial planner in Chwk. Please don't be blinded by the western civilization that has led to the demise of the natives to live off their land. Their land that we took. We rape and export. My opinion.

[pork n beans]

i'll clarify ....there's poaching going on but it's pretty small scale stuff in the fraser river if FN are involved, there just isn't the need for it, there's so much opportunity provided for fishing that there just isn't that much need to poach.

[pork n beans]

bc mike i think you got the idea. FN really don't have to recognize the govt's claim of sovereignty over the land and it's resources. as far as they are concerned we are trespassing in their territory. THe gov't and the people FN and non FN have a sort of collaborative agreement to make society work in a civilized fashion. there's a few bugs left to iron out along the way. it takes time and isnt' it nice that we argue over fish and stuff and go to court and debate like civilized people many places in the world don't have that right and a tyrannical government can make you disappear if they don't like what you have to say or if you are in their way. fish aint worth killing people over. .there's always gonna be salmon if we let them spawn and live like they do, they're a precious natural resource that keeps coming back to feed us if we let them. how they die by whom doesn't really matter to the fish. the factis someone is gonna kill them and eat them adn i say if the fish are eaten locally if caught locally then that's a good thing. Jimmy p doesn't need to get a piece of it. also is it right that someone in ottawa tells us how to manage a resource that is here? not sure. it's like a bunch of children that need to be babysat by big brother because they can't sort out their own sandbox argument. embarrassing

[bc mike]

I agree entirely with winchester284. You are naive to think that. The only reason the natives should be allowed to harvest fish in these areas should be for sustenance. They shouldn't be allowed to sell it so that they can buy other food. That like me going out and harvesting a mule deer and selling it then going out and buying groceries.

This is my opinion based on well stated history. Based on much time spent in native communities with native families.

[Livewire322]

Wheres my copper pots?.....
My ancestors gave up their copper pots for the thousands of acres of land that natives lay claim too, I do not recollect receiving any copper pots in return for the land that they want back.

People here in Canada plea for universal equality, I do not see equality.
Quite frankly when I see a specific group of people that get special privileges it gets under my skin. Call it what you like but it's nothing but BULL$#|+.
When I see a group of natives out in a boat gillnetting salmon that run up the Thompson. You cannot tell me that all of they are going to eat all of them!
We (and I'm going to assume when you say "we" that you mean white people) may have damaged this country, but when we realized we were doing damage we stopped, I'll direct your attention to the cod moratorium back east. When things got bad we stopped.

[sarg]

I. Please don't be blinded by the western civilization that has led to the demise of the natives to live off their land. Their land that we took. We rape and export. My opinion.
does that mean all races should get every thing handed to them thats were be wronged? like the jews or african americans, they have had to suck up the sh*tty past of there familys and move on and they had it alot wrose then the FN did, i'm just saying every one in the world has had bad shit happen to them had there family but it time to move on and forget about the past and look forwards to the furture.

[pappy]

The jews and african americans have had their hardships stopped. There is treaties that have never been honored by the gov't of Canada involving lots of bands. Wrong shit is still happening to native bands across Canada, that is why soo many natives don't give a shit about regulations. Most non-natives don't know or don't care about these issues not concerning themselves, but they will complain when natives protest about the issues between these bands and our gov't. The mohawks of the bay of Quinte have had the gov't place an area as a reserve for them, agreed on a treaty and the gov't later on tried to sell part of the native reserve land to contractors to develope. These natives found out that the gov't sold there land when the contractors started to develope. All this bulshit happened in the early 90's after the treaty was made a longtime before hand. Of couse they protested and the cops came in and charged them with tresspassing on there own land. It all had to go to court and the contractors had to leave. This kind of shit still happens, its just not mainstream news.

[bc mike]

does that mean all races should get every thing handed to them thats were be wronged? like the jews or african americans, they have had to suck up the sh*tty past of there familys and move on and they had it alot wrose then the FN did, i'm just saying every one in the world has had bad shit happen to them had there family but it time to move on and forget about the past and look forwards to the furture.

Great debate. I don't know enough about the Jews and Palaseinians to get into that. US has an Africian American President...thats great. It shows concrete progress. I believe we as a country are moving forward. I wish all our BC resources were governed by the BC gov't ...we the people... not Ottawa. No, I don't think that FN should get everything handed to them. Nor do they. I think we should understand history and keep an open mind to what western civilation has done to the FN good and bad. Then be fair and move together as one. Arguing over a few fish that feed local families is not worth it. Rich or poor we all have to put food on the table. Then I am the type of person that thinks we should solve our in Country problems like poverty, hunger, mental illness, addiction and homelessness before we tell other Countries how to deal with their problems.

[ford1]

Great debate. I don't know enough about the Jews and Palaseinians to get into that. US has an Africian American President...thats great. It shows concrete progress. I believe we as a country are moving forward. I wish all our BC resources were governed by the BC gov't ...we the people... not Ottawa. No, I don't think that FN should get everything handed to them. Nor do they. I think we should understand history and keep an open mind to what western civilation has done to the FN good and bad. Then be fair and move together as one. Arguing over a few fish that feed local families is not worth it. Rich or poor we all have to put food on the table. Then I am the type of person that thinks we should solve our in Country problems like poverty, hunger, mental illness, addiction and homelessness before we tell other Countries how to deal with their problems.

I like this and agree.

[Livewire322]

I dissagre With both BCmike and ford1 there is a problem that needs to be recognized if the natives don't want handouts then they wouldnt take them but they do. Its not just a couple fish either.
If natives want to be treated equally maybe they should try to follow the same laws as I do, without special loopholes or privileges.

[sarg]

I dissagre With both BCmike and ford1 there is a problem that needs to be recognized if the natives don't want handouts then they wouldnt take them but they do. Its not just a couple fish either.
If natives want to be treated equally maybe they should try to follow the same laws as I do, without special loopholes or privileges.
X2 well said

[fearless]

If you don't like it boat leaves everyday. All this whining ain't going to change a thing. My .02

[The Dude]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/Avatar_-_In_Before_the_Lock.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=5008)

[Ioneth]

I suggest you don't know a whole lot about how the native fish are counted above mission.

There may be 5 "stations", however fish are landed and driven away in the backs of cars, pickups and trucks at literally 100's of spots on the Fraser above Mission. And do you really think that the fish caught in the illegal nightly drift nets are actually counted?? Helicopter flights are conducted twice a day and never at night. DFO has 2 or 3 boats that patrol the river, however the natives have a communication network that lets them know if a boat is on the way and can stop their illegal drift before the boat shows up. Every year several recreational fishermen nearly lose their lives from having their engines hooked up on the hidden set nets that are rampant in the river. No one can quantify the number of fish being poached this way.

It's like trying to figure out the value of the marijuana trade in BC. Some have estimated it to be well over $3 billion per year, but no one knows.

I suggest the illegal trade of salmon is rampant and poached salmon numbers could easily exceed the "legally counted" salmon.

Communication network? Ya most indians have a cell phone. But I think you give them to much credit.

In 9 years I have only seen one person at this rez poach salmon and he was a white guy with a native girl friend.

Illegal night set netting? Last time I checked most set netting openings were 12+ hours long. Here at least set netting only really works during slack and flood tide when the river is ebbing your net normally goes horizontal I'm not sure what they do in Mission to keep their nets down? and because of drifting most set netting is done at night if at all

I don't live in mission so I don't know if what I say applies up river.

[Ioneth]

I dissagre With both BCmike and ford1 there is a problem that needs to be recognized if the natives don't want handouts then they wouldnt take them but they do. Its not just a couple fish either.
If natives want to be treated equally maybe they should try to follow the same laws as I do, without special loopholes or privileges.

If you are talking about money hand outs from the government to first nations bands then you should figure out why they get them before you complain about them. if not ignore this lol

Running a band is not free? Chief, Council, Receptionist, Accountant, Support workers, Health Centre Nurse and employees, Community support workers. they all need to be paid. The lands on the rez also need to be serviced (roads band owned buildings community housing etc.) All that cost money and where is that money supposed to come from? In a town or city all that money would come from property taxes. But a reservation is federal land and no one can "own" it so no one can be taxed for owning it. Some reserves have industry and land leases that generate a fair bit of income and well get less handouts. other reservations have 0 industry and 0 land leases and 0 income so they survive on handouts.

And its not like those handouts sit in a bank somewhere if the money isn't used it is taken back.

[pork n beans]

the set nets above mission are set in eddies and the like they sort of hang off the shoreline and dangle in the eddy or are set in a dead water spot so they can fish properly. the drifting yeah on the slack tide the fish come off the bottom and then will hit the net. the drift spots are different than the set net spots. there's lots of room for everybody, that being said the set net spots are all claimed by someone and it's the same people fishing the same spots. when i did the net counts, you'd know who's net was whos after a while so you knew who was fishing. you're right ioneth about the poaching that's about the size of it. you live near Katzie?

[Ioneth]

the set nets above mission are set in eddies and the like they sort of hang off the shoreline and dangle in the eddy or are set in a dead water spot so they can fish properly. the drifting yeah on the slack tide the fish come off the bottom and then will hit the net. the drift spots are different than the set net spots. there's lots of room for everybody, that being said the set net spots are all claimed by someone and it's the same people fishing the same spots. when i did the net counts, you'd know who's net was whos after a while so you knew who was fishing. you're right ioneth about the poaching that's about the size of it. you live near Katzie?

Didn't know that down river set netting is mostly done during the right tide and is first come first fish :)

I live in Katzie :) I'm a white guy looking out opposed to a white guy looking in

[pork n beans]

all the guys gillnetting during the weekend openings catch most of the fish on the tide, from what i recall there's a couple of guys that set net around the mouth of the Pitt, and old Antone from kwantlen were the only setnetters from around your area. with any sort of regularity. mostly that area the guys drift.

that's a nice part of the world about this time of year.