LEH Doe Draw ???

[BearStump]

Here's an interesting topic.
I'm taking on a couple of new hunters this year, guys from work. I've walked them through the process of C.O.R.E and obtaining licences before it came time to put in for LEH. I've offered to take them to my moose spot if we get our draws. I trust these guys alot, they both have alot of integrity and I know that they will respect this area as a spot that was shown to them based on an ethical hunters premise of not returning to that spot with someone else.
So I tell one of them to just pick up a couple of LEH cards and drop them off with me, and I'll fill them out and put the shared moose one together in the same envelope and get 'em mailed out. He says "are ya gonna fill in the doe draw one too?" I say "yah sure" then he says "Ok I'm just gonna rip it up anyway" ????????????? "what do you mean you'll rip it up anyway?" he says thats what his dad and his brother in law have always done. When I asked why he said cuz its another buck around for next year.
Now, I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this crap. This pisses me off!! (and yes I let him know this.) This sounds like something that an anti would do just so bambi doesnt die. I told him "like hell i'm gonna put in a doe draw for you in my area just so you can diminish my odds of getting one if you're gonna rip it up anyway.
Any of you guys know anyone who does this? Is this even legal? what are your thoughts?

[Marc]

My thoughts are you may want to look for some new hunting partners if they're not on the same wave length as you. To each their own for not shooting a doe but purposely putting in for the draw to save a doe from getting shot is not the kind of guy I want to hunt with. What will happen next is they'll increase the quota the following year if their target isn't met so it's not doing anyone any favour.

[troutseeker]

It sounds like that fellow needs to learn what's up with the doe draws. Just because his dad and brother in-law practice this silly card ripping does not mean he will do it if you explain things to him. And if he insist's on doing it, well, I'd take someone else moose hunting.... As far as legality, it's their tag, they can do whatever they want with it.

[TESKELLY]

What will happen next is they'll increase the quota the following year if their target isn't met so it's not doing anyone any favour. my thoughts exactly

[Whonnock Boy]

You have learned something about your co-worker that you did not know before. What else might you learn about him? I think before you take them into your cherished honey holes, I would go hunting with them somewhere that none of you have hunted before or at least a spot that is not your spot for moose. Next thing you know, you get him fired from work for banging your wife, he has told everyone on a hunting forum where your spot is, and he has taken everyone he knows to your spot. Just saying.

[BearStump]

thanx for some of the quick replies. I will certainly keep on him and I'm sure that I will persuade him to see the light. Like I said, I have no question whether this guy has integrity I trust him with my life on a daily basis at work. I think its more just education on a subject that he knows little about. anybody have more fuel that I can thow at him to convince him that his dad and brother in law are wrong in their thinking.

[kgs]

I agree bearstump they and he need more education on that subject but what bothers me is that they actually think they are helping the population when really these draws are based on wild life management concepts and not to mention ruining the chances for other hunters to enjoy a possible successful deer hunt and screwing with the odds of the draw.

[Fisher-Dude]

When I asked why he said cuz its another buck around for next year.


I'm not sure how he thinks not shooting a doe but hunting bucks will ensure another buck around for next year. Tell him he's putting more pressure on bucks by passing on does.

There's 100% chance that if he shoots a buck only, there's one less buck around; but only a 50% chance that if he shoots a doe, that she would have given birth to a buck. In fact, post-rut bucks suffer on winter range by too many does consuming feed, and some bucks die from malnutrition after being weakened by the rut.

The best managed herds have harvest across all age and sex classes, and produce more and healthier deer for harvest.

[kgriz]

I think if you pass on friends for not agreeing with you or "the sound management priciples of the day"....you might find yourself doing many things by yourself..........I would love to take the time to dig up all of the regs from back in the 70's until now and posting them so that everybody could see how many ideas have come and gone and I'm sure all managers felt they were right at the time.....but I think that people would miss the point and just call me a MOE hater as usual.....
If buddy wants to burn one tag, its his money....same with the antis. I'm sure there are lots of "hard-core" hunters on this site that have not used a tag for a reason that another would think is stupid.
I laugh at the level of micromanagment that goes on these days when the train and the highway kills the amount it did this winter.

[BearStump]

I'm not sure how he thinks not shooting a doe but hunting bucks will ensure another buck around for next year. Tell him he's putting more pressure on bucks by passing on does.

There's 100% chance that if he shoots a buck only, there's one less buck around; but only a 50% chance that if he shoots a doe, that she would have given birth to a buck. In fact, post-rut bucks suffer on winter range by too many does consuming feed, and some bucks die from malnutrition after being weakened by the rut.

The best managed herds have harvest across all age and sex classes, and produce more and healthier deer for harvest.

Thanks FD thats the intell I need to maintain a persuasive conversation with him and change his uneducated mind.

[BearStump]

If buddy wants to burn one tag, its his money....same with the antis. I'm sure there are lots of "hard-core" hunters on this site that have not used a tag for a reason that another would think is stupid.
I laugh at the level of micromanagment that goes on these days when the train and the highway kills the amount it did this winter.
True..........but we're talking about intentionally obtaining a tag with no intent to fill it. only reason to do this would be to stop 1 other hunter from killing a doe. not filling a tag here or there for other reasons (broke and cant go, death in the family hunt was cancelled, truck broke down) is more acceptable, but this guys way of thinking has got to change.

[kgriz]

I agree that their opinion might be crappy but when we impose too much thought or say into what another's opinion should be it can become a slippery slope......if one buys into the system hard enough I would suggest that if enough people did this, it could be decided that success is low so to increase the harvest rates to help the population, tags should be increased.....yah for us...you're buddy's now helping! Hah

[Fisher-Dude]

The number of tags doesn't really determine your long term success (ie of killing a doe) in any draw. The Annual Allowable Harvest and hunter success rates are the determining factors.

If they want 10 does killed, your success is determined by success rates of hunters who get drawn. If only 7 does on average get killed, they will bump up the number of hunters and you'll have a better chance of going hunting (but not of killing a doe). Conversely, if 12 does on average are killed, the number of hunters will be reduced and your chances of going hunting will be reduced. Ultimately, your chances of killing a doe is dependent on how successful all hunters are on that draw. At least, that's how the system is supposed to be managed...I'd elaborate but it will derail the thread. ;)

[rides bike to work]

I definatly recomend bringing this guy on a couple other hunts before bringing him to your honey hole .Ive introduced five different guys to hunting and it only took one trip in the woods to figure out they were horrible hunting partners.One wouldnt stop pointing his gun at me (arguing it was safe)another wouldnt walk more than 50 ft from the truck another would get bord after a hour and start talking loudly eaven when tracking fresh prints no mader how how I tried wouldnt shut up,the list goes on my best hunting partner is the guy who taught me my dad.

[kgriz]

Really, is that how it works all of the time? Supposedly the tag allocations for griz in 7-06 went down because of poor hunter success....with the assumption that there must be fewer bears than predicted when actually the access just changed drastically ie. 2 bridges were pulled. And no, this is not derailing anything.....I'm pointing out that believing that the current managing techniques and rules are the end-all and then criticizing somebody really harshly for opennly denying them could be a little naive at times......or maybe the guys an idiot...but this thread seemed to be an obvious fishing expedition for slamming this guy....I wonder what he'd think of his new "buddy" bashing him on here......might not be your decision to take him anywhere when he sees he was thrown under the bus.

[muledeercrazy]

I agree with the doe draw in theory, but have seen some areas where it was implimented in a way that i really didnt agree with, such as along the Fraser River at the Williams Lake area. I think it is in poor taste to rip up a draw, but did the guy say he was in the habit of putting in for draws he wouldnt hunt? Or is this mostly about him not wanting to hunt does with you? Because that i can understand.

[hunter1947]

My thoughts are its his tag and if he wants the eat it then so be it this is his choice ..

[BearStump]

Really, is that how it works all of the time? Supposedly the tag allocations for griz in 7-06 went down because of poor hunter success....with the assumption that there must be fewer bears than predicted when actually the access just changed drastically ie. 2 bridges were pulled. And no, this is not derailing anything.....I'm pointing out that believing that the current managing techniques and rules are the end-all and then criticizing somebody really harshly for opennly denying them could be a little naive at times......or maybe the guys an idiot...but this thread seemed to be an obvious fishing expedition for slamming this guy....I wonder what he'd think of his new "buddy" bashing him on here......might not be your decision to take him anywhere when he sees he was thrown under the bus

no-ones slamming anything except you. I've logged on this morning so that I can print off this thread and show him the replies today at work. There was some good feedback. Most to support my theory of "dont mess around and think you can manage deer herds on your own" but also a couple of points that point out that it wont make a difference either way in the big picture.
the other point of this thread was to see if this was maybe a little more common than I thought. I had never thought that this was done by anyone before buddy brought it up.

[BearStump]

but did the guy say he was in the habit of putting in for draws he wouldnt hunt? Or is this mostly about him not wanting to hunt does with you? Because that i can understand

He's never hunted before, this is just some thing that his dad and brother in law do. also he doesnt even know what region we're going to, so it cant be based on any specific area.
Anyhow, I'm off to work heres another opportunity to educate the new hunter that I've decided to help out.

[fearnodeer]

Okay someone i know does the same thing, he puts in for doe draws just to stop someone else from getting it. He will only shot bulls or bucks and deer must be a min 3 point. One of my employes dad and brother do the same thing as well and i've known several people that hve put in for cow/calf elk for the same reason. I don't agree with them and tell them why bother, but its still there choice and respect them for it.

[Foxton Gundogs]

here's an interesting topic.
I'm taking on a couple of new hunters this year, guys from work. I've walked them through the process of c.o.r.e and obtaining licences before it came time to put in for leh. I've offered to take them to my moose spot if we get our draws. I trust these guys alot, they both have alot of integrity and i know that they will respect this area as a spot that was shown to them based on an ethical hunters premise of not returning to that spot with someone else.
So i tell one of them to just pick up a couple of leh cards and drop them off with me, and i'll fill them out and put the shared moose one together in the same envelope and get 'em mailed out. He says "are ya gonna fill in the doe draw one too?" i say "yah sure" then he says "ok i'm just gonna rip it up anyway" ????????????? "what do you mean you'll rip it up anyway?" he says thats what his dad and his brother in law have always done. When i asked why he said cuz its another buck around for next year.
Now, i'm having trouble wrapping my head around this crap. This pisses me off!! (and yes i let him know this.) this sounds like something that an anti would do just so bambi doesnt die. I told him "like hell i'm gonna put in a doe draw for you in my area just so you can diminish my odds of getting one if you're gonna rip it up anyway.
Any of you guys know anyone who does this? Is this even legal? What are your thoughts?

"YOU TRUST THIS GUY A LOT"?????...I cowboyed in 5-2 for over 12 years always carried a saddle gun and always put in for a doe draw in hopes of getting a dry doe for the freezer. dispite the odds being in the 2-3 to 1 range never got a draw. Being on the range offten and on horse back to boot deer were neve a problem and I was always able to conect with a young buck BUT that's not the point. Then I hear of guy like this.......all I can say is NICE.... if you dont want a doe then don,t screw the "meat hunters" what kind of hunter "ethics" is that?

[Piperdown]

Hey ask Blindguy on this site about giving up halibut spots for just one day :) Seems the guy is there all day every day!

[Iron Glove]

Hmm, so your friend applies for a tag with no intention of using it, basically to prevent others from having the opportunity.
How would he feel if a few thousand anti-hunting activists went out and did their CORE and then all applied for LEH's with the intent of ripping them up ??
Their reasons might be different than your friends but evryone is entitled to their reasoning. Right. ;)

[CanuckShooter]

You have his hunter number...just send it to the LEH people, they can make sure he never gets another doe draw...simple. ;-)

[Steeleco]

Hmm, so your friend applies for a tag with no intention of using it, basically to prevent others from having the opportunity.
How would he feel if a few thousand anti-hunting activists went out and did their CORE and then all applied for LEH's with the intent of ripping them up ??
Their reasons might be different than your friends but evryone is entitled to their reasoning. Right. ;)

That actually happens, I used to have 2 co-workers that did just that. Lets just say they always ate lunch by themselves!! That and I'm sure it wasn't their idea??

Bear Stump, tell your wannabe that shooting one doe at most will take three deer out of the pool. The mother and possibly twins, shooting one buck, who knows how much siring he could have done?