Guess What Date Mule Deer Does Go Into Estrus? [Archive]

Bigbuckadams

08-03-2006, 06:08 AM

I have seen Mulie bucks breeding does as early as about the 24th of October. In the area that I hunt ( Vernon-Kelowna ), I find that the actual breeding takes place roughly between Oct.28-Nov.12 give or take a day or 2. Yes, a secondary and/or 3rd time frame for does that did not get bred occurs about 28+56 days later. However, if you would like to know the specific time(s) for your perticular area, contact a Government Wildlife Biologist. It does take a bit of time for them to get back to you, but the normally will respond to a message left if you cannot get ahold of them initially.

Byson

08-03-2006, 06:43 AM

Im going to say november 1st to the 13th

mapguy

08-03-2006, 06:54 AM

nov 8 approximately

dana

08-03-2006, 07:15 AM

There can be significant prerut activity in Oct but actual breeding that early is very very rare. The Okanagan hunters normally don't see the real ruting activity because their season ends to soon. Small bucks being horny and mounting the odd doe is not breeding.
The odd doe will come in early the first week of Nov but the majority will come in between Nov 9-20th. I've found that from year to year it can be 3 to 4 days different but always within that time frame. Weather plays a huge roll in how much action you actually get to see. Last year was a full moon with bright clear nights and much of the rutting was done at night and the bucks were resting up during the day. If there is very little snow in the highcountry to push a lot of deer low, the rut can string out that entire week with a second rut happening around Dec 8-12th.

3kills

08-03-2006, 08:17 AM

i thought that the amount of day light has to do with the rut i remember readin an article that said i had to do with the amount of light in a day that sends does into estrus....

Jelvis

08-03-2006, 09:38 AM

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boonerbuck

08-03-2006, 10:18 AM

I will not accept that peak rut in region 3 for Mule Deer is Oct 23rd to Nov 2nd. No way.

dana

08-03-2006, 10:25 AM

Been hunting Region 3 for 15 years now, and I'm not just a causal observer. There is never even a hint of does being bred in Oct. Hell, the big boys don't even start thinking about getting laid until that first week of Nov. It is the young bucks that are showing signs of hornyness in Oct, and they ain't the ones that get to do the dirty deed.

Elkhound

08-03-2006, 12:16 PM

Not sure about Mulies as not enough experience with them but the blacktails here all seem to be 2nd week of Nov for peak activity

palmer

08-03-2006, 03:04 PM

I will not accept that peak rut in region 3 for Mule Deer is Oct 23rd to Nov 2nd. No way.

Then don't.... but I can tell you in Chrsitina Lake those dates are about perfect...Our bucks really start moving about Oct 15-20 and breeding takes place any time after that..

Jelvis

08-03-2006, 03:23 PM

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270WIN

08-03-2006, 03:49 PM

I would say there no set time does go into heat they probly do it throught out the year but come oct nov that when the bucks take more intrest. i seen buck chasing does as early as sept. but just a guess

Ridge-Runner

08-03-2006, 06:14 PM

The rut is totally correlated with the timing of parturition of off-spring, which is photoperiodic, therefore, fawns born too early or to late have lower survival rates. Rocky Mountain mule deer gestation period is approx 203 days N=36, Robinette, 1976.Determining the timing of estrous cycles or actual copulation is difficult for the casual observer. The rut can be difficult to determine depending on the overall dynamics of the population ie. buck to doe ratios and the abundance of mature breeding males. Activity levels of breeding bucks changes as the rut proceeds, bucks tending estrous females have lesser movements, which decreases sightability. As pregnancy rates increases so do the males activities in search of estrous females, or younger females with later cycles, which increases sightabilty. So my point is you either have to observe actual copulation or parturition, with a significant sample size to accurately determine the rut, also keeping in mind the timing of the rut changes with latitude and weather conditions do not effect the timing of the rut, only the intensity. So be careful of your assumptions?Cheers, RR

dana

08-03-2006, 06:47 PM

Seen the act of copulation many many times between Nov 9-20. See many many times that week every year. Never seen the act of copulation ever in Oct. ever in my years of observing muleys. What Jelvis says this one bio thinks is contray to many of the leading bios thoughts. Dr. Valerius Geist being one of them. Sooo, given what I've observed and what I've read, I'll take that man's opinion as just that an opinion.

Jelvis

08-03-2006, 07:02 PM

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boonerbuck

08-03-2006, 07:14 PM

Well I know that. That's why I asked how far north these mulies were that you speaketh.

Jelvis

08-03-2006, 09:13 PM

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Ridge-Runner

08-03-2006, 09:27 PM

Its interesting that Valerius Geist was mentioned. Maybe you would like to get me up to speed on his newest theory on "shirkers." Large antlered mule deer bucks that during the rutting season avoid other deer, bucks especially, and fail to court or breed?

Cheers, RR

Jelvis

08-03-2006, 09:48 PM

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dana

08-03-2006, 10:26 PM

You mean 'O' bucks. Opterouters. In this country there are bucks that never come down, that live their whole lives right near the timberline. They live all winter in the big ass spruce types in the treewells. No predators to worry about and yes, they get big. Found their sheds just below treeline. One winter I hit Hawg tracks in the alpine and he was eating the tops off the subalpine fir. Snow was firm enough for me to walk on top without any snowshoes. He certainly wasn't having any issues with mobility. Survival of the fittest no doubt. He certainly was winning the battle against the lions.

Ridge-Runner

08-04-2006, 06:29 AM

No I mean shirkers;mature bucks that have large antlers and body sizes that avoid the rut or breeding possibilities, definately not survival of the fittest, genetically speaking. Shirking is also potentially reverisible according to Geist.

Bucks that winter at high elevations still participate in the rut, and retreat into these secluded areas, yes for predator avoidance, but also for interspecfic competition reasons from the females they breed, though it may not be the best nutritionally. Poole and Mowatt published a recent paper (2002?) on wintering habitats and movements of mule deer in the West Kootenay's based on GPS collars, track transects, snow conditions, and habitat types, which is a very good read.

I would love to chat about mule deer more, but I start holidays today and I'll be gone for a while.

Cheers, RR

dana

08-04-2006, 07:42 AM

Opterouters, is how Geist puts it. They decide not to participate in the rut. Of the bucks that I was talking about, I'm sure there are a few that don't participate. They never drop down to actually catch the smell of estrus, therefore they miss the whole event. Like I said, they spend there whole lives up high.
The 'O' bucks that Geist refers to in his studies are the ones that got their asses kicked as a young buck. They decide that to win they need to optout of the rut for a few years. As their competition weakens themselves throughout the rut and then the winter, they are is worse shape, or even dead for the next year's rut and the 'O' buck then takes dominance.
It is believed that the famous Wyoming buck 'Popeye' was a 'O' buck. He always showed up on the winter range well after the rut was over.

Ridge-Runner

08-04-2006, 12:23 PM

Pardon my ignorance on this subject but I have not read any of Geist’s literature on this usual behavior. Maybe you could clarify a few questions?

How are testosterone levels depressed or reduce to ****** reproductive urges?

You mentioned that buck will stay high in elevation habitats missing breeding opportunities by not scenting estrous females, ( to my knowledge male ungulates are not testosterone induced from the females, testosterone level increase regardless if females are present or not, and bucks will search out breeding opportunities), and how does this work for mule deer in the Prairie Provinces?

How was it determined that these individuals did not breed nocturnally, so what type of monitoring was done to ensure good observational confident limits were obtained?

What are the benefits or advantages for a prime large antlered, large body sized male to be repressed from spreading his genetics? when his prime fitness can be short lived?

What was the population dynamics or vital statistics of the study animals?

Quantifying behavior ecology is hard to analyze with any statistical strength, I would like to have a copy of this paper?

Interesting subject, hopefully you can help.

Just some thoughts, RR

dana

08-04-2006, 12:41 PM

I'm sure Geist has the documentation to back up his claims. When you spend years living with the deer and are accepted as one of their own, you see things that many don't get the chance to see. Geist is one of those individuals. He mentions the 'O' buck theory in Mule Deer Country which is a book for laymen. I'm sure his papers go into much deeper detail.
As for the bucks I've observed, I am not a Bio and do not live with the critters 24/7. I am a layman. I've never claimed to anything more than a guy that is a hard-core trophy muley fanatic. It is very widely know that wackos like me make outlandish claims from time to time that can never be backed up with evidence. ;)

Ridge-Runner

08-04-2006, 12:51 PM

Thanks Dana, usually hard fanatical hunters have a fairly good grip on biology, thier digging usually brings up more and more questions. I'll have to try through the U of C for any of his papers, thanks again.

Cheers, RR

000buck

08-04-2006, 01:49 PM

having only ever hunted the south island (blacktail) it has been my experiance that the pre rut festivities can begin as early as the last 2 weeks of sept with my two largest thick necks being taken in the first week of Oct!!! That said I have also noticed significant increases in buck movemnt and vulnerability in early nov, 28 days? always book my time for the first week of oct though. any one else had similar experiance??

Jelvis

08-04-2006, 02:10 PM

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Islandeer

08-05-2006, 10:31 AM

I am late on this thread, but my 2cents might be worth a nickel. Re the original rut start for muleys, the bucks are ready to go as soon as their antlers harden. So when the first does come into estrous they are there. In the east Kootenay where I chase mulies, it seems that alot of the buck /doe behaviour is just before the dance begins. Lot's of sniffing,posturing,from the bucks,and lot's of running away from the does. We see lots of does that are very close to their peak estrous exemplified by lots of peeing infront of the bucks. The bucks can then tell if they are ready to go. But the does will only stand fot the bucks when they are ready. The time line for this is usually from the 5th of November to the 15th,which is the end of the season. When there is deep snow in the high country the herds move lower which seems to bring on the rut. This may only be because of their higher concentrations. I have read all of Geist's work and my Dad is a friend of his which is helpful in trying to figure these critters out.

Geist told my Dad that the opterouteres actually do breed,not every year,but when the opurtunity presents itself.

Jelvis

08-05-2006, 09:56 PM

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Jelvis

09-22-2006, 07:23 PM

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Darren

09-23-2006, 12:36 PM

I have seen the most activity on Nov. 13th, but thats for blacktails on the coast.

GoatGuy

09-24-2006, 10:23 PM

How close are we to the Rut we are now in pre-rut 9 22 06 so what do you say how close to Estrus are we? Mule deer rut and estrus? Reg 3, 5, 7, 8 and when will the deer start coming down I. say October 15, 06 The top Bucks will start to come down to establish breeding area dominance. Some will be at 2500 ft by October 9th, 06 makin trail, believe it or not?

I think it depends on the area - some spots they same to bail out in early October. One of the high country spots I've hunted seems to come alive around the long weekend of Oct (give or take a day or two) and the deer pile out of the country regardless of snow/weather.

Other areas they'll hang in there right to the bitter end - until the rut fires right up. Combine that with a dump of snow and you get a major concentration of deer which is a lot of fun.

Seem to see the most buck activity 8-10 to Nov-20 on and then again right at the end of November (do I ever miss the late muley seasons). Not sure if that's when most of the does are actually bred but that's when it seems the bucks are doing the most cruising.

Bigbuckadams

09-25-2006, 05:52 AM

I talked to one of the government biologists about 2-3 years ago. What HE said "peak breeding occurs Oct. 28 - Nov. 3" in the area I hunt, Kelowna-Vernon ( for Mulies ). I've got my Mulie on Nov. 2nd & 3rd the past 2 years, both with a group of 6 or more does. That being said, I have come across bigger bucks that would have been easily taken, breeding/in company of does, in the same area around Nov. 20-24th during the last days of Whitetail hunting. I couldn't tell you if these would be does going into a second estrus, but you would think so. Fewer does in estrus for "2nd rut", more competition for that doe to be bred, is probably why I am seeing these bucks in the open.:lol:

Jelvis

09-25-2006, 01:06 PM

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Jelvis

03-22-2009, 03:40 PM

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PGK

03-22-2009, 03:42 PM

Jelvis :roll:

hunter1947

03-22-2009, 05:23 PM

Jel you got to much time on your hands :eek:.

sfire436

03-22-2009, 06:03 PM

I would point out that even though the does may only be in estrus during certian tomes, the bucks can be rutting long before and after.

born2hunt

03-22-2009, 06:10 PM

i believe its around nov 11 th

Jelvis

03-22-2009, 06:42 PM

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hunter1947

03-23-2009, 06:08 AM

Mule deer Does go into estrus in most regions around 15 Nov.

dutchie

03-23-2009, 01:36 PM

Well, the way that I understood the question was when is the FIRST doe...

I would have to agree that the majority of breeding happeneds in the 2nd week of November but the first does will bein... it is like anything people... Some wake up at 5am every morning and most wake up around 7:30-9...
Then there are the straglers that are up even later around 11-1..

last years rut was late, this year it may be early... I think that the average could be around there but that is a little early for the last few years I think.

dutchie

Jelvis

03-23-2009, 02:21 PM

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ElkMasterC

03-23-2009, 02:42 PM

It starts the day after I have to go back to work.

Every damn year.

Jelvis

03-23-2009, 07:26 PM

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elkdom

03-23-2009, 07:55 PM

as a group/herd, mule deer seldom do more than one or two does share estrus time and date, when observing a herd of mule deer, the large dominant buck will follow the does, rambling back and forth from doe to doe, sniffin the does arse, the dominant bucks will piss and rub trees and make ground scrapes, asserting his dominance over a harem of does, he will pay special attention sniffing the does arse, at the exact moment she is "ready" then she "the doe" will "STAND" he does his thing, it takes a only a few seconds, then he is on his way over to sniff out another doe, the one closest to estrus, as his NOSE,,KNOWs when that time WILL BE!!!, as for EXACT date??? the region,the elevation weather, food availability , hunting pressure, are all factors as to when IT happens!

So it is all about the "smelly hole", not the, Jelly Hole,:)

Jelvis

03-23-2009, 09:25 PM

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elkdom

03-23-2009, 09:41 PM

elkdom --- knows the noze --- is so important --- a sniff --- just one --- but --- wait --- one --- more --- hey ---
Urine tells a lot to a buck or doe. It tells hunter's some things too, if he or she can decifer the evidence in the snow. How old is the snow? When was the deer hear, which way is it going? Doe or buck by the positioning of the spot compared to the four tracks of each leg where it stood at the time of.
Lip curl or flemming is what the buck will do after taking a wiff of the well let's say the doe's hinder parts. The little gland in the bucks lip curler tells the buck how close the doe is to stop moving and dodging and nervously darting about. He will wait then when the lip curl picks up the exact odor the buck attends the doe and completes the union. He could try again and then if it's over will seek out another willing doe in heat. He will be driven into a frenetic pace during the peak of the estrus period trying to cover as many as he possibly can. Don't forget the big tough buck is not alone in the ridges, there are other huge bucks which could throw a challenge onto him and try to drive him into the ground to injure and put him out of the estrus action. Some bucks have limped away from a massive fight with tine cuts and twisted knees and slipped discs in their necks. Then who gets to dance with the estrus doe? It's a cruel world out there in the darkness of the fir ridges. Cuz all of them want in on the action, Jackson.
Jel-the urge is strong-the night is long-the fight is on-

thanks for typin all that out "Smell-Vis",!! I gotta save my typin/trigger finger for G-bear#7-49 commin soon!:-), as for this thread on "mule deer smelly-vision" I agree on most of your views, for my VIEWS, check my HBC Gallery Pics!:cool:, keep sniffin :wink: