Region 8 wish list from BCWF

[358mag]

Fire up the Popcorn machine and grab a cold Beer
Hunting Regulation Proposals for 2012 and 2013
Which are supported by BCWF Okanagan Region




Bighorn Introduce a new ¾ curl GOS for Sheep in all huntable populations in the
Sheep region.



Moose Reinstate the GOS on spike/fork bulls September 20th-. Oct 31st
The moose population estimate has been far too low as the recent
survey has shown and the previous harvest is consistent with a
population double the size of past estimations.
.

Moose Open an antlerless LEH in all MU's with sufficient populations




Mule Deer Extend the four point from November 10th season to November 15th
This is recommended in all MU's where the season presently closes
on Nov 10th and is not a conservation concern as it is only for 4
point Mule Deer


Mule Deer Archery Move the late archery season to psrrell the late whitetail season
Dec 1 - 20




Deer Change the bag limit to 3 deer regional
Request that the bag limit be made up of any 3 of the following
(1) whitetail buck (1) whitetail doe (1) mule deer buck
(1) mule deer doe.




Elk archery Open an archery only season for 6 point Bull Elk September 1-9 in all MU's
Season that presently have an Elk GOS


Coyote Extend the present season to year round with no bag limit.


Wolf GOS Sept 10 -June 15 Strong support from the region clubs



Wolf Trapping season A proposal to open a wolf trapping season is unanimously supported througout
the region.




Canada Geese Increase the regional bag limit from 5 to 10 per day.


CI's Remove the CI reporting for Elk in Region 8 from the regulations




Access Move the existing road closures for Crater Mt, Border Lake and Durruseau from the Forest Act to the Wildlife Act







Access Remove the Lawless Jacobson road closure in MU 8-5 as the purpose it was originally intended for is not applicable.



Fishing Remove the Single barbless hook designation from all designated waters in the Okanagan and replace it with a barbless only designation.








Al Springer


Region 8 BCWF
Allocations & Regulations
Committee

[ufishifish2]

Wow. I love it, but it sounds too good to be true. I especially like the idea of extending the bow season for mulies, although I don't think it should start any later, just run longer. Maybe I'll finally dust off the old bow for that one!!!!

[uraarchr]

I really like the extended mulie archery season to match the ext wt archery.

[hillclimber]

Lots of guys have been asking for a Wolf season lately. Looks like they got their wish.

[groove]

Nice, this would be great!

[one-shot-wonder]

Lots of guys have been asking for a Wolf season lately. Looks like they got their wish.

This is onlya proposal by the OKBCWF, doesn't mean it will carry through.

[one-shot-wonder]

Deer Change the bag limit to 3 deer regional
Request that the bag limit be made up of any 3 of the following
(1) whitetail buck (1) whitetail doe (1) mule deer buck
(1) mule deer doe.

Thats a hell of an idea, maybe guys will actually shoot an antlerless deer without fear of burning up their only tag. mmmmmmm WT doe :-D

[snareman1234]

I like the Sheep and the Muley season!!! Love reg 8

[peashooter]

You had me at moose. I'm in.

[kebes]

Would sheep be granby, okanagan mountain park and the keremeos area?????? I would've thought they would try for something more like region 3 (mature bighorns) any particular reason for aiming straight for a 3/4 gos?

[358mag]

Would sheep be granby, okanagan mountain park and the keremeos area?????? I would've thought they would try for something more like region 3 (mature bighorns) any particular reason for aiming straight for a 3/4 gos?
Have to ask the BCWF Head wigs to find there thinking behind that one.
It would only place in BC with a 3/4 curl GOS season been closed for over 8+ years ,lots of easy access,15 min hike off most roads , looks like it might be a bit of a Gong Show type hunt but I dont have any stats to prove it just a gut feeling .

[mark]

I like the sounds of every proposal, except maybe the 3/4 curl thing???? What the heck is the logic in that????
Gong show sheep hunting might be an understatement!

[Andy83]

I agree, hope it works out

[Gunner]

I like the sounds of every proposal, except maybe the 3/4 curl thing???? What the heck is the logic in that????
Gong show sheep hunting might be an understatement!Yep,I can't find anything there that rings any bells for me,except the sheep proposal.Might be OK in Ashnola or the south OK,but not Granby. Gunner

[Fisher-Dude]

Hats off to the OKBCWF and member club Wildlife Committee members for all these well-reasoned proposals.

It will be nice to see the single barbless changed to barbless in Okanagan Lake - too many of those smaller trout were getting their brain cavities punctured by the big single hooks. A barbless treble is definitely the way to go to prevent this.

Let's hope the MoE makes science-based decisions on these proposals and leaves the social bullshit out of it.

[GRIZZEZE]

I like the sounds of every proposal, except maybe the 3/4 curl thing???? What the heck is the logic in that????
Gong show sheep hunting might be an understatement!

I know that they have been trying to get a full curl GOS for a while now, so maby they are asking for the 3/4 curl in hope that they will receive a full curl opening. Ask for more than what you want to get what you want.
Just my idea of the logic

[.300WSMImpact!]

elk bow season, sweet! anybody explain the regional deer thing?

[Singleshotneeded]

:-D That all works for me...one thing in particular, I've seen a lot of moose
in the last few years in the Okanagan...a GOS makes sense!

[Fisher-Dude]

elk bow season, sweet! anybody explain the regional deer thing?

Proposal is you can shoot 3 deer (instead of the current 2). But, only one WT buck, one MD buck, one WT doe, and/or one MD doe on LEH. So, only one of each type and sex, to a maximum of 3. Make sense?

[ROEBUCK]

How Do These Proposals Work,do The Moe Take Much Notice ?

[hunter1947]

In region 4 there has been an archery season that has been open for years for any bull elk sept first to the ninth I 'would not like this change entroducing a 6 point only archery season http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif all others mentioned sound ok to me..

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Personally, I'd like to see the sheep season match the season on the Frazer....some 3/4 curl LEH's along with a "full curl bighorn" GOS. Having the "mature bighorn" season on Calis is going a little too far. I know we want to move away from LEH's to GOS .....and I also realize that the Vaseaux herd grew to 800+ sheep with a GOS 3/4 curl season...but with regional shifting popular today, it would great to match the seasons from region to region.

It will be interesting to see how "parks" react to an Ashnola GOS.

As far as moving the archery muley season to Dec 1 to Dec 20th, I think it will be lost opportunity. That first week of archery season on Nov 25 th is usually some great action!

SSS

[Fisher-Dude]

In region 4 there has been an archery season that has been open for years for any bull elk sept first to the ninth I 'would not like this change entroducing a 6 point only archery season http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif all others mentioned sound ok to me..


This proposal has nothing to do with region 4.

[CatsPreb]

I'd be Plenty happy with an no bag limit or closed season for wolves. the rest is fine the way it is for another couple years. if anything they should shut down the mule doe draws and seasons.......

[Fisher-Dude]

I'd be Plenty happy with an no bag limit or closed season for wolves. the rest is fine the way it is for another couple years. if anything they should shut down the mule doe draws and seasons.......

Any conservation reason or do you just not like shooting does?

[.300WSMImpact!]

Proposal is you can shoot 3 deer (instead of the current 2). But, only one WT buck, one MD buck, one WT doe, and/or one MD doe on LEH. So, only one of each type and sex, to a maximum of 3. Make sense?

yes thanks!

[.300WSMImpact!]

I'd be Plenty happy with an no bag limit or closed season for wolves. the rest is fine the way it is for another couple years. if anything they should shut down the mule doe draws and seasons.......

I was out hiking, and went into am area that usually has 20 to 30 deer, a few elk, and moose, but all I saw was dead animals and wolf track, we need a wolf season, they will kill everything off, I have seen it in other provinces,

[mgnm300]

I don't agree with moving the late muley bow season to dec 1. they should leave the nov 25 opening as is since they can still be in the rut and are a little easier to hunt with the bow. it's hard enough to try and get close to shoot a 4pt. (personal goal) with the late bow season.
i've had my best success with muleys in the first week of opening, (nov 25), it would a shame to lose that oppertunity since i've only hunted deer with the bow for the last 10yrs.

[Fisher-Dude]

I don't agree with moving the late muley bow season to dec 1. they should leave the nov 25 opening as is since they can still be in the rut and are a little easier to hunt with the bow. it's hard enough to try and get close to shoot a 4pt. (personal goal) with the late bow season.
i've had my best success with muleys in the first week of opening, (nov 25), it would a shame to lose that oppertunity since i've only hunted deer with the bow for the last 10yrs.

What about hunting them in the extra 5 days in the rut Nov 11 - 15 with your bow if the other proposal is accepted? There would also be an extra 4 days in late bow if the Dec 1 - 20 proposal is passed. That could equate to 9 more days to achieve your goal! :wink:

[mgnm300]

quote by fd; What about hunting them in the extra 5 days in the rut Nov 11 - 15 with your bow if the other proposal is accepted? There would also be an extra 4 days in late bow if the Dec 1 - 20 proposal is passed. That could equate to 9 more days to achieve your goal! :wink:.

that would be during rifle season. which i'll leave alone to rifle hunters.
i really like the nov 25th opening since it has given the muleys a rest from hearing gunfire and they are more at ease on concentrating on the does which helps me on getting closer, besides the later opening wouldn't help since the rut is done and the big boys disappear into thick cover and are harder to find,,yaya before you go on "that's hunting" i really know this. i've bin really successful with the nov 25th opening and after hunting for over 40yrs and finally getting a chance at some of the bigger boys with the bow has bin a rush and it would be sad to lose that oppertunity.
it's only bin the last 4 yrs in a row that i've managed to get a 4pt and the last one was 161",,my best ever and that was on nov25th and the others were bagged in the first weekend of opening.
just my experince with the late bow season opening nov 25th

[one-shot-wonder]

And I don't understand the mule deer only to Nov 15? Why not Nov 30 or Dec 10?

Easy there big fella! Baby steps........it's hard enough convincing the Nimby's and MOE just to get the MD season back to the per 1998 regulations let alone the end of the month.......

After all the Mule deer bucks are stupider in region 8 than in region 3 didn't you know!

[coach]

Great suggestions. I too would like to see the reasoning behind the 3/4 curl sheep suggestion - purely from an interest point of view. Is this a case of playing politics and pushing for 3/4 in hopes of getting full plus 3/4 GOS? I like having the extra days to hunt with the MD an WT late bow seasons open at the same time. It did seem strange to be packing a rifle for whitetails and a bow for mule deer between the start of late MD bow season and the end of WT GOS. I hope the Elk and moose suggestions also go ahead.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

[quote=Kirby;874395]
The sheep I would like to know the reason behind the 3/4 GOS over Full curl or 4/5 curl.
quote]


As I said I'm not quite supportive of the 3/4 curl GOS to be reinstated.....but previous to the die-off in 99/2000 there was a Sept 10-18 GOS 3/4 curl season in place for quite a number of yrs (maybe someone can help me with how many yrs is was in place?)....and the herd was still able to grow to over 800 sheep(can remember the yr the population peeked as I've loaned out a book that contains that info).

With the 3/4 GOS in place there was also a 1 in 5 yr rule. It may have been 1 in 3 at some point previous but I only have regulations dating back to 94/95.....and "yes" there were still some decent rams to be had back then for those lucky enough to find them.

SSS

[The Dude]

Wolf: Great
Coyote: Great
Elk Bow: Great

What's with the 3/4 curl sheep thing? What's the idea there? Clean out some smaller donut rams? Don't quite get that one.
Sheepsperts? Anyone?

[The Dude]

It will be interesting to see how "parks" react to an Ashnola GOS.

SSS

Geez......it's already a Gong Show with LEH. can't imagine a GOS there......bring a lawnchair and popcorn. :D

[Fisher-Dude]

quote by fd; What about hunting them in the extra 5 days in the rut Nov 11 - 15 with your bow if the other proposal is accepted? There would also be an extra 4 days in late bow if the Dec 1 - 20 proposal is passed. That could equate to 9 more days to achieve your goal! :wink:.

that would be during rifle season. which i'll leave alone to rifle hunters.
i really like the nov 25th opening since it has given the muleys a rest from hearing gunfire and they are more at ease on concentrating on the does which helps me on getting closer, besides the later opening wouldn't help since the rut is done and the big boys disappear into thick cover and are harder to find,,yaya before you go on "that's hunting" i really know this. i've bin really successful with the nov 25th opening and after hunting for over 40yrs and finally getting a chance at some of the bigger boys with the bow has bin a rush and it would be sad to lose that oppertunity.
it's only bin the last 4 yrs in a row that i've managed to get a 4pt and the last one was 161",,my best ever and that was on nov25th and the others were bagged in the first weekend of opening.
just my experince with the late bow season opening nov 25th

Is there a good reason for not bow hunting during rifle season? I know quite a few guys who do, and they are really successful with some crankers to show for their efforts. A 10 minute walk for me, and I don't see another hunter all day long.

Let's keep in mind that throughout most of region 8, WT bucks are being GOS rifle hunted on the same lower elevation rut areas from Nov 25 - Nov 30 as bow hunted mule deer. So, I'm uncertain about your not wanting to bow hunt during a rifle season - you already are.

Since you're tagging out on Nov 25 - 27, it's hard for you to give a good opinion on a Dec 1 MD opening, right? Maybe, if rifle hunters are so detrimental to bow hunting (I don't buy it, but I'll play along), the extra 6 days of "rest" will line those big bucks up along the edge of the main roads like cordwood? :wink:

[one-shot-wonder]

What's with the 3/4 curl sheep thing? What's the idea there? Clean out some smaller donut rams? Don't quite get that one.
Sheepsperts? Anyone?

3/4 curl doesn't mean that only young rams will be harvested. many of these california rams will never grow to a full curl length as they tend to broom their horns back beforehand. I shot a 12 yr old ram that barely broke the 3/4 mark and the other rams in the band that were longer (yet not as heavy) were just over or around 3/4 and not even close to full curl.

As it has been mentioned already the region had a 3/4 GOS for the first week of the season and the herds grew strong. I like the sounds of a short GOS followed by LEH to supplement the harvest.

[dana]

For those that don't get out of Region 8, you may not realize that the bulk of the first mule deer rut happens from Nov 11-Nov 20th. After that, the big boys hit the thick crap and rest up, barely moving for a few weeks. The younger bucks still think something is going on and they are the ones rutting with their tongues hanging out just hoping and praying they might get a piece of tail. Now along comes Dec 8th through about the 15th and most years you have what is called the second rut. Any does that came in early and were missed during the first go around are bred during this timeframe. And the big boys are rested up after having a few weeks off. You want some great action as a bowhunter, that would be way better than Nov 25th. On top of that, the heavy snows normally have come by then and a lot of bucks are in their winter modes. They have a lot of calories they have to put back on since the peak of the rut. They feed most of the day. Hmmm, if this goes through, I might just have to save a tag and take up bowhunting again.

[Fishhound]

I do not think that extending the deer season along with increasing the bag limit is sustainable.

One or the other should be tried for a couple of seasons to determine the impact, then it could be fully implimented in those areas that could sustain it.

Full curl ram as a test then 3/4 curl where sustainable.

[kebes]

Mature Ram makes way more sense then full curl with cali's.....beyond that I won't pretend I know much....but like was mentioned on the last page, lots of california rams will never reach full curl.

[Fisher-Dude]

I do not think that extending the deer season along with increasing the bag limit is sustainable.

One or the other should be tried for a couple of seasons to determine the impact, then it could be fully implimented in those areas that could sustain it.


The bag limit for mule deer bucks remains at one.

There is no conservation concern hunting only bucks, and especially so with a 4 point season. We manage for 20:100 bucks:does, yet we can go as low as 10:100 and still see all does bred. Surveys have shown the buck:doe ratio is robust in the region.

Why wouldn't we hunt them for a measley 5 days under a strict 4 point harvest? There's no science-based argument that supports your point. Are you basing your point on social aspects of hunting?

[dana]

I do not think that extending the deer season along with increasing the bag limit is sustainable.

One or the other should be tried for a couple of seasons to determine the impact, then it could be fully implimented in those areas that could sustain it.

How is it that just across the line, Region 3 can have a month longer season and a 3 deer limit (1 muley buck, 1 whitetail buck, 1 whitetail doe, 1 LEH muley doe) and yet Region 3 is more than sustaining their deer populations? Region 3 has higher pressure from out-of-Region hunters, with a lot of OK hunters, Lower Mainland/Island hunters and now Region 5 hunters taking advantage of the rut hunt. Region 3 can do it, why can't Region 8??? We also have the longest whitetail buck season in the entire province. Region 3 also would like to extend the GOS on whitetail does to be both Oct and Nov, to actually see the numbers of the whitetail invasion start dropping instead of increasing like it has.

[SHAKER]

Would be interested to look into this, I don't honestly know area very well and have an extremely limited knowledge of access/success etc in the area but with a short enough season anything is sustainable.

I've been getting a history lesson for some time now about when their was a GOS 3\4 season. Average harvest # was around 15 and didn't vary much and the season was short...... 7-10 days if I remember right.

[358mag]

CI's Remove the CI reporting for Elk in Region 8 from the regulations


Why does BCWF want to remove the Cl's for elk in region 8 ??? seems to me its a great MOE management tool to keep track on what type and how many Elk were harvested in Region 8 not to mention a bit of a deteriant for poachers.

[Fisher-Dude]

CI's Remove the CI reporting for Elk in Region 8 from the regulations


Why does BCWF want to remove the Cl's for elk in region 8 ??? seems to me its a great MOE management tool to keep track on what type and how many Elk were harvested in Region 8 not to mention a bit of a deteriant for poachers.


Put the money into surveys and enhancement projects instead, to do something worthwhile for elk. We have years of CI data that should tell us all we need to know. Also, the regular questionnaire lets us determine harvest accurately.

Oh yeah, poachers don't give a rat's ass about CIs. Chance of being tracked down for not CIing an illegal elk is pretty close to NIL.

[behemoth]

Single barbless to barbless

Does this mean I could potentially have a dropper fly now????

[358mag]

Put the money into surveys and enhancement projects instead, to do something worthwhile for elk. We have years of CI data that should tell us all we need to know. Also, the regular questionnaire lets us determine harvest accurately.

Oh yeah, poachers don't give a rat's ass about CIs. Chance of being tracked down for not CIing an illegal elk is pretty close to NIL.
So what your saying is that BWCF whats to get rid of all CI's ?????? or just Elk :confused:

[Fisher-Dude]

So what your saying is that BWCF whats to get rid of all CI's ?????? or just Elk :confused:

Just elk in region 8 in this proposal. I can't speak for other CIs, but I'm certain sheep will still need to get CIed and plugged, for example.

[moose2]

The proposals sound good I hope you guys down there can get a couple of them. I have been involved in fish and game clubs before were we had submitted a dozen or more of what we thought were reasonable ideas and only part of one was used by fish and wildlife. We were always told ask for alot and hope for a little.
Mike

[J_T]

Am I reading the Mule Deer proposal right?
The proposal moves the close of GOS 4 pt from Nov 10th to the 15th and the late season MD Bow would be Dec 1 - 20th?

[Fisher-Dude]

Am I reading the Mule Deer proposal right?
The proposal moves the close of GOS 4 pt from Nov 10th to the 15th and the late season MD Bow would be Dec 1 - 20th?

That would be correct. The GOS going to Nov 15 would be only in those MUs with a current Nov 10 closure.

[Fisher-Dude]

Single barbless to barbless

Does this mean I could potentially have a dropper fly now????

No. This means waters with current single barbless restrictions would now allow barbless trebles.


IT IS UNLAWFUL TO....

Angle with a fishing line to which more
than one artificial fly is attached

(i.e., to use “dropper flies”).

[J_T]

That would be correct. The GOS going to Nov 15 would be only in those MUs with a current Nov 10 closure.
Seems to me it would be an increase in opportunity to have the bow season move to the closing date of GOS.

[Fisher-Dude]

Seems to me it would be an increase in opportunity to have the bow season move to the closing date of GOS.

According to the bow hunting poster above, mule deer need to "rest" before they can be bow hunted. :wink:

Maybe someday another bow org will step up and submit their proposals before the deadline to MoE. Too late now for the next two year regulation cycle.

The world is run by those who show up. The bow committee of the OKBCWF showed up and submitted these bow proposals.

[Onesock]

Heh heh.......

[J_T]

According to the bow hunting poster above, mule deer need to "rest" before they can be bow hunted. :wink:

Maybe someday another bow org will step up and submit their proposals before the deadline to MoE. Too late now for the next two year regulation cycle.

The world is run by those who show up. The bow committee of the OKBCWF showed up and submitted these bow proposals. ??? Whoever whatever, I'm just saying, common sense would suggest..... It just seems there's a hidden agenda and common sense doesn't always apply with hidden agendas. I know you like to spin things your way and attack those who don't agree with your manipulations, so I'll leave you with it.

FYI, bowhunting groups external to the OKBCWF, did submit proposals, on time. Not quite the same. But not far off either.

[one-shot-wonder]

FYI, bowhunting groups external to the OKBCWF, did submit proposals, on time. Not quite the same. But not far off either.

Can you post the other proposals so we can see everything (except the GO's) on MOE's plate?

[GoatGuy]

Seems to me it would be an increase in opportunity to have the bow season move to the closing date of GOS.

A Dec 1-20 bow only season was requested from bowhunters to line up both the wt and md bow season.

It made sense so it was supported. :confused:


??? Whoever whatever, I'm just saying, common sense would suggest.....


If we suppose the regulations are set up using common sense, what you're talking about is uncommon sense.

[GoatGuy]

CI's Remove the CI reporting for Elk in Region 8 from the regulations


Why does BCWF want to remove the Cl's for elk in region 8 ??? seems to me its a great MOE management tool to keep track on what type and how many Elk were harvested in Region 8 not to mention a bit of a deteriant for poachers.

There's no need for CIs on 6 pts bull elk. If introducing a hunt where there's potential for over-harvest (ie 3 pt, any elk, new spike-fork hunt) CIs have merit. There will always be CIs for sheep/goats.

Don't understand how CIs would deter poachers. Unlikely a poacher is going to tell anybody they shot an elk, especially an inspector. :wink:

[GoatGuy]

Sheep Harvest 3/4 Curl GOS

Resident Harvest 1976-1999

Grief with the software for HBC


MU 801 2 1 7 10 8 15 14 16 15 8 8 12 16 12 10 7 9 7 4 2 4 5 4 0
MU 809 4 3 4 2 1 . 5 5 3 7 3 1 1 1 2 1 0 2 2 2 1 4 2 4

[Stone Sheep Steve]

A Dec 1-20 bow only season was requested from bowhunters to line up both the wt and md bow season.

It made sense so it was supported. :confused:



If we suppose the regulations are set up using common sense, what you're talking about is uncommon sense.

Lining up the seasons certainly made sense. Packing both rifle and bow can be a pain in the arse.

If it means keeping the GOS whitey season until Nov 30th then I support the changes.

SSS

[SHAKER]

Sheep Harvest 3/4 Curl GOS

Resident Harvest 1976-1999

Grief with the software for HBC


MU 801 2 1 7 10 8 15 14 16 15 8 8 12 16 12 10 7 9 7 4 2 4 5 4 0
MU 809 4 3 4 2 1 . 5 5 3 7 3 1 1 1 2 1 0 2 2 2 1 4 2 4

Thanks.... I've been look'n to get these #'s. Doesn't look like we were kill'n off every last sheep on the mountain.

[CatsPreb]

Any conservation reason or do you just not like shooting does?
Not to many mule does where I hunt and with the wolves it's not going to get any better.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif If you wanna shoot a doe go to vancouver ( Blacktail) or whitetail not a mule. A couple old timers told me when they where hunting back in the early 60's or later there where more mules than whities now look.
Just conservation to me.

[knockturnal]

I don't think that the mule deer population has suffered. I think that the whitetail population has exploded.

[one-shot-wonder]

you want to save mule deer? Shoot more white tails. The beliefe that eliminating a doe season will result in more deer is incorrect. Limiting factors are suitable habitat to hold animals.

Exactly right. And the way I see this proposal is to increase the regional bag linmit in order to have people shoot a WT doe in the GOS, and not be concerned about losing their opportunity to shoot a WT buck or MD buck also in the region.

Make sense to me.....we really need to start harvesting some WT does, those "RAT" deer are getting out of control!

[Fisher-Dude]

Not to many mule does where I hunt and with the wolves it's not going to get any better.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif If you wanna shoot a doe go to vancouver ( Blacktail) or whitetail not a mule. A couple old timers told me when they where hunting back in the early 60's or later there where more mules than whities now look.
Just conservation to me.

Conservation means having suitable habitat and food supplies to balance the level of the population. We can't grow more deer without food. The mule deer populations are very robust throughout region 8 (at historical high levels again according to MoE bios, except maybe in 8-15). WT encroachment has had a limiting factor on other ungulates, but MD levels are still very high right now.

We shoot about 150 MD does in all of region 8 per season. In a population of something near 15,000 - 20,000 animals, that has no discernable impact.

Like I said, science-based decision making should be used in place of social-based opinion, such as "old timers told me..."

[358mag]

There's no need for CIs on 6 pts bull elk. If introducing a hunt where there's potential for over-harvest (ie 3 pt, any elk, new spike-fork hunt) CIs have merit. There will always be CIs for sheep/goats.

Don't understand how CIs would deter poachers. Unlikely a poacher is going to tell anybody they shot an elk, especially an inspector. :wink:
Maybe stated that wrong ie pochers, maybe should have said resident hunter who now knows theres no CI's on place and just might pop a primer on a non legal bull Elk knowing that he just might be able to sneek it out of the hills and not have to check it in with a inspector .

[358mag]

[quote=Fisher-Dude;874630]Put the money into surveys and enhancement projects instead, to do something worthwhile for elk. We have years of CI data that should tell us all we need to know. Also, the regular questionnaire lets us determine harvest accurately.
All for doing something worthwhile for the Elk , but not by having longer seasons !!!!

[Fisher-Dude]

All for doing something worthwhile for the Elk , but not by having longer seasons !!!!

We have the shortest, most restrictive seasons on region 8 elk we've ever had. It used to be 3 point from Sept 10 to Nov 15!

Again, attempting to stockpile game is NOT a science-based approach to game management. You know that, but of course you just don't want someone else to shoot "your" elk.

And, elk hunter participation has dropped 60% in region 8 in the past 10 years. Isn't that low enough competition for you?

[BCrams]

resident hunter who now knows theres no CI's on place and just might pop a primer on a non legal bull Elk knowing that he just might be able to sneek it out of the hills and not have to check it in with a inspector .

Still classified as a poacher if someone does that. You're just fear mongering and just don't want a longer season because it will give hunters more opportunity to shoot elk out of the Okanogan.

[358mag]

We have the shortest, most restrictive seasons on region 8 elk we've ever had. It used to be 3 point from Sept 10 to Nov 15!

Again, attempting to stockpile game is NOT a science-based approach to game management. You know that, but of course you just don't want someone else to shoot "your" elk.

elk hunter participation has dropped 60% in region 8 in the past 10 years. Isn't that low enough competition for you?
And what has the harvest been for 6 point Bull Elk in the last 10 years ???? dont think its dropped 60% !!!!! if fact the harvest last couple years its gone up but that still not good enuff ??? Iam sure you will have the ###. Who's stockpiling game ?? The elk have always been out there just like the Deer you just have to hunt for them ,Not just shoot them
No problem shooting a elk there out there if you want to work for then ,it just the lazy truck-quad hunters cant find then on the roads so I think they want to extend the season till end of Dec make it a 3 point bull and you know I still think that wouldnt be good enuff for some of them.
See you at the meeting

[358mag]

Still classified as a poacher if someone does that. You're just fear mongering and just don't want a longer season because it will give hunters more opportunity to shoot elk out of the Okanogan.
Were are you coming from ????????
How long is long enuff ???? hard working hunters will always be successful,lazy hunters will never be.

[Fisher-Dude]

And what has the harvest been for 6 point Bull Elk in the last 10 years ???? dont think its dropped 60% !!!!! if fact the harvest last couple years its gone up but that still not good enuff ??? Iam sure you will have the ###. Who's stockpiling game ?? The elk have always been out there just like the Deer you just have to hunt for them ,Not just shoot them
No problem shooting a elk there out there if you want to work for then ,it just the lazy truck-quad hunters cant find then on the roads so I think they want to extend the season till end of Dec make it a 3 point bull and you know I still think that wouldnt be good enuff for some of them.
See you at the meeting

Who said that people want that? Only change is a 10 day bow season for 6 points.

Also, during the 10 year pre-1998 period, average annual harvest was 69.8 bulls. Post 1998, average annual harvest declined to 34.8 bulls.

You do the math.

[Fisher-Dude]

Oh yeah Skip, I have information about who apparently proposed the early elk bow season through his BCWF club. You better ask around before you bad mouth it. It could cost you your September job. :wink:

[358mag]

Oh yeah Skip, I have information about who apparently proposed the early elk bow season through his BCWF club. You better ask around before you bad mouth it. It could cost you your September job. :wink:
Ok Patrick will do and I could care less about a early season Bull Elk hunt all the more power to the String + Stick boys and it more resident opporntunity isnt that what its all about ???
And being a Wal-Mart greeter dont think I have to worry about my job come September, but thanks anyway

[BCrams]

358mag -

A Guide Outfitter proposed the elk extension to the elk season.

Does that change your stance now or is it still the same?

[358mag]

Who said that people want that? Only change is a 10 day bow season for 6 points.

Also, during the 10 year pre-1998 period, average annual harvest was 69.8 bulls. Post 1998, average annual harvest declined to 34.8 bulls.

You do the math.
Ok you must have a ## count per management unit dont you ??
and you have remeber one thing .Even if I agreed with you Patick you would still be wrong !:twisted:

[358mag]

358mag -

A Guide Outfitter proposed the elk extension to the elk season.

Does that change your stance now or is it still the same?
What Guide Outfitter ???? and what would have to do with my stance :confused:

[J_T]

Can you post the other proposals so we can see everything (except the GO's) on MOE's plate?

Sorry for being slow to get back to you I was traveling yesterday and unable to get online. In Region 8 bowhunters recommended:

Adjusting the late season archery Mule Deer hunt to commence following GOS. What we promote is an alignment with proposals for region 4.
And we recommended the early archery elk, which I believe is common with the OKBCWF proposal.
We also requested an increase in regional bag limit to 3. Again, similar to the one posted.
Provincially we recommend a Municipal ungulate management program. This does not suggest 'bow only' but an overarching program to manage municipal deer. Part of the solution might include shotgun, unique seasons, and involvement/authorization of the municipality. That perhaps the bag limit would not impact a "Provincial" bag limit.
We are also looking at extended turkey seasons (Dec 1 - 20) where it might be supported by populations and rancher/turkey conflict.

[Fisher-Dude]

Sorry for being slow to get back to you I was traveling yesterday and unable to get online. In Region 8 bowhunters recommended:

Adjusting the late season archery Mule Deer hunt to commence following GOS. What we promote is an alignment with proposals for region 4.

Is this a new R4 proposal? There's no MD late bow there now. What's the wording?

[GoatGuy]

Maybe stated that wrong ie pochers, maybe should have said resident hunter who now knows theres no CI's on place and just might pop a primer on a non legal bull Elk knowing that he just might be able to sneek it out of the hills and not have to check it in with a inspector .

Don't think that changes anything other than species that need a plug. Poacher's a poacher's a poacher, CI or no CI.

[horshur]

this is my opinion only.....the mule deer proposal is most certainly sustainable however it is not meeting what were the said ends of hunter recruitment and retention that suggested strongly that point restrictions were a major factor in hunters hanging up there rifles and discouraging new people to take up the activity.
To me a longer GOS on mule deer which has been shown to be sustainable ad nauseum here already would truly reflect better intentions.

the extension is only a region 8's hunters wish for a rut hunt for trophy deer. Which is fine, but nothing to do with what has been preached about retention and recruitment.

[Fisher-Dude]

this is my opinion only.....the mule deer proposal is most certainly sustainable however it is not meeting what were the said ends of hunter recruitment and retention that suggested strongly that point restrictions were a major factor in hunters hanging up there rifles and discouraging new people to take up the activity.
To me a longer GOS on mule deer which has been shown to be sustainable ad nauseum here already would truly reflect better intentions.

the extension is only a region 8's hunters wish for a rut hunt for trophy deer. Which is fine, but nothing to do with what has been preached about retention and recruitment.

I'd agree with ya, but:

Last year we were successful in getting an extra 11 days of any buck in place, and did get youth any buck all season (Sep 1 - Nov 10 is any MD buck for youth).

You've seen the backlash we face from those on here who scream "slaughter!" at 5 extra days of 4 point - can you imagine what we would face from NIMBY hunters if we asked for any buck GOS during that time? There's not a single "trophy hunter" at the table from the OKBCWF in these discussions, I can assure you of that!

Following the current season structure, youth season should also extend to any buck to Nov 15 if the 4 point extension is approved, and although that was not specifically stated in this proposal, OKBCWF has passed a motion that has gone to MoE that "As long as there is an open season for Mule Deer, a youth should be allowed to shoot any mule deer buck."

[horshur]

I'd agree with ya, but:

Last year we were successful in getting an extra 11 days of any buck in place, and did get youth any buck all season (Sep 1 - Nov 10 is any MD buck for youth).

You've seen the backlash we face from those on here who scream "slaughter!" at 5 extra days of 4 point - can you imagine what we would face from NIMBY hunters if we asked for any buck GOS during that time? There's not a single "trophy hunter" at the table from the OKBCWF in these discussions, I can assure you of that!

Following the current season structure, youth season should also extend to any buck to Nov 15 if the 4 point extension is approved, and although that was not specifically stated in this proposal, OKBCWF has passed a motion that has gone to MoE that "As long as there is an open season for Mule Deer, a youth should be allowed to shoot any mule deer buck."


in that way region 8 leads the way as I see it for youth..

the mule deer youth GOS season in region 3 is only 9 days.... of those days a school kid could maybe participate fully in 5 of them. There are youth whitetail seasons but much of region 5 does not have many whitetails like region 8.
Region 3 youth have 40 day GOS for mule deer as opposed to region 8 youth having 71 days GOS as a read it.

[Walksalot]

I think the CI on elk in region 8 is an excellent way of keeping track of harvest numbers. The elk population in 8-09 is not big enough, in my estimation, to discontinue keeping track of the harvest numbers. The numbers are growing because of the habitat created by the fires but the burn will grow up and the amount of habitat will eventually start to diminish. As the burn starts to mature and competition for the habitat becomes more intense the focus, in my opinion will be on the sheep herd which was introduced to Okanagan Mountain and exist thoughout the valley. The net,net will eventually be the elk population will be targeted for reduction. This may seem a long way down the road but just look how the goat population in Penticton Creek crashed as the habitat declined. As the burn matures the amount of winter range will be the deciding factor in the fate of the elk in 8-09. Also the growing elk population will increase the friction between the agrucultural community in reguards to the destruction caused by the elk to orchards and vineyards. If you add all this up it does not bode well for the elk and I think we must continue to monitor the harvest numbers. I have not mentioned the number of elk taken by native hunters because no one seems to have any idea how many they shoot.

[Fisher-Dude]

You're micro-managing, Walks.

However, since you bring it up, the MoE has committed to ongoing controlled burns in OKMP to maintain the habitat created in 2003.

[Walksalot]

You're micro-managing, Walks.

However, since you bring it up, the MoE has committed to ongoing controlled burns in OKMP to maintain the habitat created in 2003.

I guess I am but is that not the reason the province was broken up into so many MUs?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I think the CI on elk in region 8 is an excellent way of keeping track of harvest numbers. The elk population in 8-09 is not big enough, in my estimation, to discontinue keeping track of the harvest numbers. The numbers are growing because of the habitat created by the fires but the burn will grow up and the amount of habitat will eventually start to diminish. As the burn starts to mature and competition for the habitat becomes more intense the focus, in my opinion will be on the sheep herd which was introduced to Okanagan Mountain and exist thoughout the valley. The net,net will eventually be the elk population will be targeted for reduction. This may seem a long way down the road but just look how the goat population in Penticton Creek crashed as the habitat declined. As the burn matures the amount of winter range will be the deciding factor in the fate of the elk in 8-09. Also the growing elk population will increase the friction between the agrucultural community in reguards to the destruction caused by the elk to orchards and vineyards. If you add all this up it does not bode well for the elk and I think we must continue to monitor the harvest numbers. I have not mentioned the number of elk taken by native hunters because no one seems to have any idea how many they shoot.

According to the Reg 8 bio the elk herd in 8-09 is doing "fantastic"..."wonderful"...ect!!

And they are planning on keeping up with more burns in the park so we don't have to experience what we did in 2003.

SSS

[GoatGuy]

I think the CI on elk in region 8 is an excellent way of keeping track of harvest numbers. The elk population in 8-09 is not big enough, in my estimation, to discontinue keeping track of the harvest numbers. The numbers are growing because of the habitat created by the fires but the burn will grow up and the amount of habitat will eventually start to diminish. As the burn starts to mature and competition for the habitat becomes more intense the focus, in my opinion will be on the sheep herd which was introduced to Okanagan Mountain and exist thoughout the valley. The net,net will eventually be the elk population will be targeted for reduction. This may seem a long way down the road but just look how the goat population in Penticton Creek crashed as the habitat declined. As the burn matures the amount of winter range will be the deciding factor in the fate of the elk in 8-09. Also the growing elk population will increase the friction between the agrucultural community in reguards to the destruction caused by the elk to orchards and vineyards. If you add all this up it does not bode well for the elk and I think we must continue to monitor the harvest numbers. I have not mentioned the number of elk taken by native hunters because no one seems to have any idea how many they shoot.

Sure, if it was something other than a 6 pts season. Even if there were 10 elk in 8-09 you wouldn't need CI.

It's statistically impossible to create a conservation concern with a 6 pts season. That's what makes it a waste of money.

Complete different from goat hunting, agricultural conflict or FN harvest.

[Walksalot]

[
quote=GoatGuy;876678]Sure, if it was something other than a 6 pts season. Even if there were 10 elk in 8-09 you wouldn't need CI.

It's statistically impossible to create a conservation concern with a 6 pts season. That's what makes it a waste of money.

Complete different from goat hunting, agricultural conflict or FN harvest.
[/QUOTE]

That's my concern that there will be 10 elk left in the herd and everyone will still think there is no need for CI.


I can remember talking to Bob Lincon expressing my concern about the elk population and his lack of concern. A short time later they woke up to the fact the herd was in trouble.

I love hearing people quote statistics. Many a disaster has come as a result of people relying on statistics.

I discussed the enhancement of the elk herd in our region by introducing new blood and was told not a chance in hell because of the conflict it would cause with the agricultural community.

I voiced my concern again win regards to the goat population declining and no one seemed to notice. It wasn't because of hunting it was because of loss of habitat.

I sure hope my concerns are unfounded but I have seen it to many times that people wake up to the fact there is a problem but by that time it is a mess.

[GoatGuy]

That's my concern that there will be 10 elk left in the herd and everyone will still think there is no need for CI.


I can remember talking to Bob Lincon expressing my concern about the elk population and his lack of concern. A short time later they woke up to the fact the herd was in trouble.

I love hearing people quote statistics. Many a disaster has come as a result of people relying on statistics.

I discussed the enhancement of the elk herd in our region by introducing new blood and was told not a chance in hell because of the conflict it would cause with the agricultural community.

I voiced my concern again win regards to the goat population declining and no one seemed to notice. It wasn't because of hunting it was because of loss of habitat.

I sure hope my concerns are unfounded but I have seen it to many times that people wake up to the fact there is a problem but by that time it is a mess.

Elk used to be 3 pt in Region 8 and there is a chance that hunting could result in a population decline (although a slim one at that). New blood wouldn't have solved the problem, although a fire would. You need to get down to a bull:cow ratio well below 10:100 to have an impact and you won't see that with a 6 pts season. It is impossible.

Habitat was the problem, and will be in the future. Dealing with habitat is a long-term plan, not a reaction through regulations.

I love hearing people think the current hunting regulations have some sort of regulating affect on wildlife populations. That might have been true in the past but today, by and large, all we're doing is cherry picking in most spots in BC. You control wildlife populations through harvesting the female segment and we really don't do that.

[Walksalot]

Elk used to be 3 pt in Region 8 and there is a chance that hunting could result in a population decline (although a slim one at that). New blood wouldn't have solved the problem, although a fire would. You need to get down to a bull:cow ratio well below 10:100 to have an impact and you won't see that with a 6 pts season. It is impossible.

Habitat was the problem, and will be in the future. Dealing with habitat is a long-term plan, not a reaction through regulations.


I love hearing people think the current hunting regulations have some sort of regulating affect on wildlife populations. That might have been true in the past but today, by and large, all we're doing is cherry picking in most spots in BC. You control wildlife populations through harvesting the female segment and we really don't do that.


Actually GoatGuy the female segment of the population may very well be harvested by the FN hunters. I asked our wildlife biologist how many animals were taken by the FN hunters and the reply was that no one knew. I asked if females were being harvested and the reply was they very well might be. As the herd increases the hunting opportunities for the females may very well increase as FN people fill their larders.
When the 6 point season was introduced, compimented by CI, the only reason they knew there was a big problem with the population numbers was the increadibly small number of animals being reported.

[GoatGuy]

Actually GoatGuy the female segment of the population may very well be harvested by the FN hunters. I asked our wildlife biologist how many animals were taken by the FN hunters and the reply was that no one knew. I asked if females were being harvested and the reply was they very well might be. As the herd increases the hunting opportunities for the females may very well increase as FN people fill their larders.
When the 6 point season was introduced, compimented by CI, the only reason they knew there was a big problem with the population numbers was the increadibly small number of animals being reported.

FN certainly do harvest elk.

However, FN harvest has nothing to do with 6 pts and CI. The 6 pts management is independent of FN harvest.

The number of animals harvested is also reported in the hunter survey.

For $25 a shot on 6 pts the money would be much better spent on inventory, habitat or CIs on species that could actually be impacted by hunting regulations (ie spike-fork/LEH combo seasons).

[one-shot-wonder]

I love hearing people quote statistics. Many a disaster has come as a result of people relying on statistics.

I discussed the enhancement of the elk herd in our region by introducing new blood and was told not a chance in hell because of the conflict it would cause with the agricultural community.

Well I love hearing the ol' timers like you that were all over the bio's and preached to the CO's how we had "runt, rag horn" elk that need fresh blood by way of a transplant....... Mean while a certain contract biologist in the area kept saying there is nothing wrong with the elk herd, they are borderline malnutritioned.......give 'em a fire and they'll be fine.

Many a disaster has come in their own minds as a result of people thinking they know everything.:roll:

[Walksalot]

FN certainly do harvest elk.

However, FN harvest has nothing to do with 6 pts and CI. The 6 pts management is independent of FN harvest.

The number of animals harvested is also reported in the hunter survey.

For $25 a shot on 6 pts the money would be much better spent on inventory, habitat or CIs on species that could actually be impacted by hunting regulations (ie spike-fork/LEH combo seasons).


I guess I also look upon CI as an excellent way of keeping track of harvest numbers. The elk herd may be doing well now but I have seen the population numbers decimated to a very low number. I guess I would like to see any tool used to reflect harvest numbers to make sure the numbers remain strong.

[Fisher-Dude]

Well I love hearing the ol' timers like you that were all over the bio's and preached to the CO's how we had "runt, rag horn" elk that need fresh blood by way of a transplant....... Mean while a certain contract biologist in the area kept saying there is nothing wrong with the elk herd, they are borderline malnutritioned.......give 'em a fire and they'll be fine.

Many a disaster has come in their own minds as a result of people thinking they know everything.:roll:


Those damned "runt, rag horn elk" in region 8. And the area this one came from hasn't seen fire in 100+ years. :wink:



http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/ElkES.jpg

[Fisher-Dude]

I guess I also look upon CI as an excellent way of keeping track of harvest numbers. The elk herd may be doing well now but I have seen the population numbers decimated to a very low number. I guess I would like to see any tool used to reflect harvest numbers to make sure the numbers remain strong.


Decimated from what? Not a 6 point season.

Dr Val Geist says our harvest questionnaires give the most reliable harvest information in North America. CI is a waste of time and money.

[358mag]

You're micro-managing, Walks.

However, since you bring it up, the MoE has committed to ongoing controlled burns in OKMP to maintain the habitat created in 2003.
Good luck on the MOE doing any burns and if they happen to get the Ok from forestery they will just be "Mirco Burns" at best unless mother nature takes over and does it on here own.

[GoatGuy]

Good luck on the MOE doing any burns and if they happen to get the Ok from forestery they will just be "Mirco Burns" at best unless mother nature takes over and does it on here own.

The mps are all in place, just need money.

[358mag]

The mps are all in place, just need money.
Wish them luck as you know it takes a big set of balls to sign off on a fire permit .

[GoatGuy]

Wish them luck as you know it takes a big set of balls to sign off on a fire permit .

Sheep balls, lol.

[358mag]

Sheep balls, lol.
Speaking of Sheep balls you going to loops next weekend ??

[GoatGuy]

Speaking of Sheep balls you going to loops next weekend ??

No, hanging out at tremblant instead. Darn work.

I'll buy the drinks if you buy the plane ticket.

Have fun.

[358mag]

No, hanging out at tremblant instead. Darn work.

I'll buy the drinks if you buy the plane ticket.

Have fun.
Always will have extra drink just for you

[Fisher-Dude]

See ya there Skip, I'm gonna get pissed to the gills.

[Walksalot]

]Decimated from what? Not a 6 point season.

Dr Val Geist says our harvest questionnaires give the most reliable harvest information in North America. CI is a waste of time and money.[/quote]

We used to harvest some nice bulls but then population numbers plummeted. Why? I think logging spelled increased access and over harvesting was the result. Places we used to packed out elk 4 klicks or so one could drive to. I never bought an elk tag for ten years. The implementation of the 6 point bull season turned the numbers around. The CI showed the numbers rebounding. I guess I figure the system is working and if it works then leave it alone.

[BlacktailStalker]

See ya there Skip, I'm gonna get pissed to the gills.

You must have been pretty pissed when you painted your shed in that picture pink.... it matches gatehouses tu-tu though...

[BlacktailStalker]

Good luck on the MOE doing any burns and if they happen to get the Ok from forestery they will just be "Mirco Burns" at best unless mother nature takes over and does it on here own.

Too bad pyros don't hunt ?

[6616]

We used to harvest some nice bulls but then population numbers plummeted. Why? I think logging spelled increased access and over harvesting was the result. Places we used to packed out elk 4 klicks or so one could drive to. I never bought an elk tag for ten years. The implementation of the 6 point bull season turned the numbers around. The CI showed the numbers rebounding. I guess I figure the system is working and if it works then leave it alone.

People thought the same with the East Kootenay elk herd regarding the 6pt season, but any type of bull only season was not likely the reason for the increase in elk numbers. Population density is not able to be manipulated with male only harvest, females yes, but not male only harvests no matter what the point restriction is. The 6pt season increases the bull/cow ratio but that's about all. The likely reason for the increase was probably the same as in the EK, a bunch of mild winters in a row, a smaller number of hunters, some access restrictions, and all of these coupled with no harvesting of females.

I agree with you that CIs are a good method of keeping track of harvest trends and more importantly that harvest data is known to regional biologists much quicker than questionnaire data, but the trade-off is cost. The questionnaire data is almost as good, comes in later, but costs a heck of a lot less. So, managers need to decide where to spend their limited funds to get the biggest bang for the buck.

The CI data costs $25.00 just to do each CI, then the data has to be assembled, sorted and entered onto spreadsheets. The eventual cost is probably $35.00 or more per animal. In the EK we harvest nearly 2000 elk per year, you can see how much money that would end up being.

F&W can do mini composition surveys every third year or so for less than that amount and have money left over for habitat enhancement and some field survey work. In the end they will actually have better data since CI data really is only useful for monitoring harvest trends, but having money for composition surveys allows biologists to keep on top of bull/cow ratios, calf/cow ratios, and recruitment rates as well.

There is always a risk involved when managers get over reliant on dead-side data and CI data is dead-side data! There must be money for field survey work or sooner or later things tend to go bad.

A good example of managing by dead-side data going bad is the mountain goat situation in the EK during the 70's which got so bad the season had to be completelly closed for several years. This situation was not avoided by having CI data available since the harvest trends stayed level until the last goat was hung and then nose-dived in a single year. The only thing that could have avoided that event was biologists doing actual field surveys.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

We used to harvest some nice bulls but then population numbers plummeted. Why? I think logging spelled increased access and over harvesting was the result. Places we used to packed out elk 4 klicks or so one could drive to. I never bought an elk tag for ten years. The implementation of the 6 point bull season turned the numbers around. The CI showed the numbers rebounding. I guess I figure the system is working and if it works then leave it alone.


The elk took a kicking in the same winter as our deer took a kicking..the winter of 96/97. Muley regs changed in 97 to account for the die-off but the elk season lagged behind one more yr. My guess is that they "hoped" the elk faired better than the mulies(as they sometimes do) ...but obviously they did not. Since it may have not been an inventory yr, the CI data (as you mentioned) confirmed the decrease in elk population. The elk season was changed to a 6pt the following yr (98/99). A 6 pt elk season is known as a "recovery strategy"...and that's what we did. Add the burn in 2003 and the elk have flourished.
According to the Reg 8 bio the elk are doing "excellent... awesome".....(his words).

We still have a 6 pt season so there is no chance that those restrictions can cause harm to the herd....so why continue with CI's??
I can see continuing with complulsory inspection if we had a 3 pt season..but no one is asking for that............ yet.

SSS

[Walksalot]

The elk took a kicking in the same winter as our deer took a kicking..the winter of 96/97. Muley regs changed in 97 to account for the die-off but the elk season lagged behind one more yr. My guess is that they "hoped" the elk faired better than the mulies(as they sometimes do) ...but obviously they did not. Since it may have not been an inventory yr, the CI data (as you mentioned) confirmed the decrease in elk population. The elk season was changed to a 6pt the following yr (98/99). A 6 pt elk season is known as a "recovery strategy"...and that's what we did. Add the burn in 2003 and the elk have flourished.
According to the Reg 8 bio the elk are doing "excellent... awesome".....(his words).

We still have a 6 pt season so there is no chance that those restrictions can cause harm to the herd....so why continue with CI's??

I can see continuing with complulsory inspection if we had a 3 pt season..but no one is asking for that............ yet.

SSS

I have heard a few people talk about going back to the 3 point or better season and our local wildlife biologist is not in favor of that, the last time I spoke with him. The people who are talking about going back to the 3 point system are, in my opinion, not concerned about a responsible wildlife management strategy they just want to shoot an elk.
Hell I remember back when the elk season consisted of a See An Elk Shoot An Elk and the numbers seemed to remain steady. But then again access was very limited. A friend if mine popped in for a coffee a couple of days ago and we were reminiscing how we chased the the elk around and the places we packed those animals out of. We were bloody crazy back in those days.

[Fisher-Dude]

I have heard a few people talk about going back to the 3 point or better season and our local wildlife biologist is not in favor of that, the last time I spoke with him. The people who are talking about going back to the 3 point system are, in my opinion, not concerned about a responsible wildlife management strategy they just want to shoot an elk.
Hell I remember back when the elk season consisted of a See An Elk Shoot An Elk and the numbers seemed to remain steady. But then again access was very limited. A friend if mine popped in for a coffee a couple of days ago and we were reminiscing how we chased the the elk around and the places we packed those animals out of. We were bloody crazy back in those days.


Actually, even a 3 point harvest wouldn't change the overall population numbers over time. It would alter the bull:cow ratio, but again, the elk are limited in overall numbers by habitat not by hunting. We've heard no one from the BCWF trying for a 3 point season, nor from the guides, and Brian's not wanting one, so I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell that it would happen. None of the FHAC members have proposed it.

There's lots of information about the effects of a 6 point only season on elk too, and over the long term, there are some negative consequences from it. As SSS mentioned, it's a recovery strategy but does create some issues down the road. Maybe, if the population level continues to expand, some LEHs on other classes of animals might be one way of mitigating the effects of long term 6 point only harvest. I don't see that happening for several years - we'll have to scrounge some money for habitat work first, and lots of it.

[Fisher-Dude]

You must have been pretty pissed when you painted your shed in that picture pink.... it matches gatehouses tu-tu though...

Ha! The scan distorted the colours in that pic.

That's a friend of mine holding those antlers - he's about 6'4", so you can get an idea of the size of that rack. I think it netted 340 or something like that.

[BlacktailStalker]

Looks like a solid elk, no doubt about it.

[6616]

It's kind of a misconception to consider a 6pt bull season by itself as a recovery strategy.

After the 96/97 die-off the 6pt season was a component of an overall recovery strategy with the real guts of the recovery strategy being simply not to harvest females.

A 6pt season by itself doesn't add much and wouldn't aid in recovery by itself without the other components unless there was a shortage of sperm.

[6616]

Last year I asked the R4 Regional biologist why they didn't have a CI program for the newly opened 6pt bull season in the West Kootenay. I was told that the felt they could get more complete data including bull and calf ratios, and get it more timely by using the same amount of money doing their own aerial surveys. They flew the WK winter ranges after hunting season and found a good number of very big trophy bulls had survived the hunting season. CI data by itself would not have given them this information since CI data only pretains to the elk that were shot, not the elk that are alive in the field.

[Walking Buffalo]

I lived in the south OK during the late 80's- early 90's. It's great to hear the herd is healthy again after the die-off.

The rams did well with the 3/4 rule in the past. There were quite a few educated rams that were hunted hard, and always won.

I'd put my money on a GOS 3/4 season being sustainable with a sufficient number of legal rams surviving the hunt each year.


Back then, few mature bulls were around. We did get some great bulls. Especially in unexpected places. My favorite memories are the bulls taken the day before a certain GO could get his client into the area. :mrgreen:

Putting the season on a 6 point rule was/is great for allowing more bulls to survive to maturity. I'm glad it was changed from the three point rule. But the change has nothing to do with the herds population growth.

[Fisher-Dude]

Back then, few mature bulls were around. We did get some great bulls. Especially in unexpected places. My favorite memories are the bulls taken the day before a certain GO could get his client into the area. :mrgreen:


Anyone remember that monster that the late Kenny Gibson got up towards Big White in the 80s? Talk about finding an absolute stud in an "unexpected" place. Now, there's a fairly good population of 'em up that way.

[358mag]

Too bad pyros don't hunt ?
Or fly a Super-Cub

[358mag]

See ya there Skip, I'm gonna get pissed to the gills.
Thanks for the warning See ya there too Patick

[358mag]

Anyone remember that monster that the late Kenny Gibson got up towards Big White in the 80s? Talk about finding an absolute stud in an "unexpected" place. Now, there's a fairly good population of 'em up that way.
There always has been it just took a but of foot work to find them

[dana]

I remember as a kid in the 80's going to a gunshow in Penticton and seeing a pair of absolutely huge elk sheds that were found on OK Mtn. IRRC the bull was killed the next year.

[358mag]

I remember as a kid in the 80's going to a gunshow in Penticton and seeing a pair of absolutely huge elk sheds that were found on OK Mtn. IRRC the bull was killed the next year.
One of the last great NT bull elk that was ever shot in Region 8

[Craven200]

Last year I asked the R4 Regional biologist why they didn't have a CI program for the newly opened 6pt bull season in the West Kootenay. I was told that the felt they could get more complete data including bull and calf ratios, and get it more timely by using the same amount of money doing their own aerial surveys. They flew the WK winter ranges after hunting season and found a good number of very big trophy bulls had survived the hunting season. CI data by itself would not have given them this information since CI data only pretains to the elk that were shot, not the elk that are alive in the field.

Those trophy bulls were not found in all the areas...in fact in the Pend Oreille area they never even saw a six point...but they did see wolves.

[Fisher-Dude]

One of the last great NT bull elk that was ever shot in Region 8


Last? This one was taken a few years ago.


http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/elk_003.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=3364&limit=last7)

[358mag]

Last? This one was taken a few years ago.


http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/elk_003.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=3364&limit=last7)
Thats nice bull that Bill shot but not even close to the NT bull that Lyall shoot

[358mag]

Again, attempting to stockpile game is NOT a science-based approach to game management. You know that, but of course you just don't want someone else to shoot "your" elk.
F-D these our not my Elk our "your" Elk or BCWF Elk or GOBC Elk
maybe FN Elk <depends on the court ruling > they belong to the people of BC Elk to set if by the MOE to be use by all users of the fine Province
As far as someone shootng my "elk" havent had any problem in the last 30 years nor do if see any problem in the next 30 years < the good Lord willing> .The Elk our out there but some people still havent figure out the diff between hunting + shooting .

[Fisher-Dude]

Good for you.

If the BCWF is asking for an early 9 day bow season, why are you squeaking about it?

[358mag]

Good for you.

If the BCWF is asking for an early 9 day bow season, why are you squeaking about it?
Squeaking about it ??? not me <could care less about the string + stick boys> but isnt that were the grease goes ???

[Fisher-Dude]

I guess I must have read this wrong.



All for doing something worthwhile for the Elk , but not by having longer seasons !!!!

Try as I might, I can't see how 9 days of bow season isn't a longer season. Maybe Skip can tell the class how it isn't.

[358mag]

I guess I must have read this wrong.



Try as I might, I can't see how 9 days of bow season isn't a longer season. Maybe Skip can tell the class how it isn't.
Sorry Teacher Patick didnt know class was still in session , guess should have stated a longer "Rifle "season . Please dont send a nasty note home with my report card.

[elcazador]

Is there a good reason for not bow hunting during rifle season? I know quite a few guys who do, and they are really successful with some crankers to show for their efforts. A 10 minute walk for me, and I don't see another hunter all day long.

Let's keep in mind that throughout most of region 8, WT bucks are being GOS rifle hunted on the same lower elevation rut areas from Nov 25 - Nov 30 as bow hunted mule deer. So, I'm uncertain about your not wanting to bow hunt during a rifle season - you already are.

Since you're tagging out on Nov 25 - 27, it's hard for you to give a good opinion on a Dec 1 MD opening, right? Maybe, if rifle hunters are so detrimental to bow hunting (I don't buy it, but I'll play along), the extra 6 days of "rest" will line those big bucks up along the edge of the main roads like cordwood? :wink:

the reason that bow and rifle seasons should be in different times, is that the approach to hunting game animals with a bow (30 yards, scent camo and fully camo, no 200 yards shots here, now imagine a rifle hunter trying to hit a deer that the bow hunter is trying to take, the bow hynter will be close to the line of fire.

[Fisher-Dude]

the reason that bow and rifle seasons should be in different times, is that the approach to hunting game animals with a bow (30 yards, scent camo and fully camo, no 200 yards shots here, now imagine a rifle hunter trying to hit a deer that the bow hunter is trying to take, the bow hynter will be close to the line of fire.


All the guys I know who choose to bow hunt all season never say this is a problem.

How many accidents have happened in BC in the past 20 years during overlapping bow/rifle seasons, wherein a bow hunter was shot by a rifle hunter shooting from a greater distance? In fact, name one instance in BC where this has happened. :wink:

I think we should concentrate on reality rather than unfounded fear-mongering if we are going to build consensus on resource use.

[Walksalot]

Being a bow hunter I would like to see a bow season for elk from Sept.1-9.

[J_T]

All the guys I know who choose to bow hunt all season never say this is a problem.

How many accidents have happened in BC in the past 20 years during overlapping bow/rifle seasons, wherein a bow hunter was shot by a rifle hunter shooting from a greater distance? In fact, name one instance in BC where this has happened. :wink:

I think we should concentrate on reality rather than unfounded fear-mongering if we are going to build consensus on resource use. Just to answer your question FD. I've had shots fired from afar while I was working a bull at about 50 yards. I had a mule deer buck shot (dead) out from under me as I stalked in on it at about 75yards and I was bugling an elk once and as it came in a hunter shot it (killed it) from behind me. I have never been shot, or shot at, but I have been in proximity of shots being fired at, an animal.

[6616]

Just to answer your question FD. I've had shots fired from afar while I was working a bull at about 50 yards. I had a mule deer buck shot (dead) out from under me as I stalked in on it at about 75yards and I was bugling an elk once and as it came in a hunter shot it (killed it) from behind me. I have never been shot, or shot at, but I have been in proximity of shots being fired at, an animal.


So have I and I was rifle hunting.

[Gateholio]

the reason that bow and rifle seasons should be in different times, is that the approach to hunting game animals with a bow (30 yards, scent camo and fully camo, no 200 yards shots here, now imagine a rifle hunter trying to hit a deer that the bow hunter is trying to take, the bow hynter will be close to the line of fire.


I'm quite often right up next to deer and bear in GOS season. Last deer 3 deer I shot were 20 ft, 50 yards, 30 ft.

Last 2 bear I shot were 20 ft, 30 ft.

To get shot by accident while hunting in BC would be very, very unfortunate, as well as very, very unlikely. Almost impossible, judging from the stats.

[GoatGuy]

Just to answer your question FD. I've had shots fired from afar while I was working a bull at about 50 yards. I had a mule deer buck shot (dead) out from under me as I stalked in on it at about 75yards and I was bugling an elk once and as it came in a hunter shot it (killed it) from behind me. I have never been shot, or shot at, but I have been in proximity of shots being fired at, an animal.

Don't think there's any difference whether you're holding a bow or rifle in your hands. If you're hunting in an area with a pile of other hunters it's bound to happen, I suppose. :confused:

[BCrams]

Just to answer your question FD. I've had shots fired from afar while I was working a bull at about 50 yards. I had a mule deer buck shot (dead) out from under me as I stalked in on it at about 75yards and I was bugling an elk once and as it came in a hunter shot it (killed it) from behind me. I have never been shot, or shot at, but I have been in proximity of shots being fired at, an animal.

Rifle shots are always going off during season and I havn't seen it alarm animals!

Sounds like you're hunting in 'open spaces' in popular areas that any person can drive to. I'd suggest modifying your hunting style / tactics.

[J_T]

Don't think there's any difference whether you're holding a bow or rifle in your hands. If you're hunting in an area with a pile of other hunters it's bound to happen, I suppose. :confused:I wasn't suggesting there is a difference. He asked the question, I provided some information. There does tend to be a difference in the approach in the style of the hunt, and statistically this does place the bowhunter closer to the animal, while the rifle hunter does have the choice to shoot from further out.

Gatehouse is correct. In BC any negative incident is extremely unlikely, and I didn't reply to FD to suggest anything to the contrary.

[J_T]

Rifle shots are always going off during season and I havn't seen it alarm animals!

Sounds like you're hunting in 'open spaces' in popular areas that any person can drive to. I'd suggest modifying your hunting style / tactics. Christ guys, ease up. "Sounds like I should modify my hunting style". My god. I've hunted over 40 years, and it's happened 3 times. I'm not suggesting it's a regular occurrence, and I wasn't suggesting it's a bow vs rifle issue. I really think you guys have to be a bit less defensive and a bit more open minded.

I must have missed the other post about alarming animals. I'm not sure what you're saying.

[BCrams]

3x in 40 years ! Sounds like hunting with a bow during rifle season isn't a problem! Awsome.

[GoatGuy]

Rifle shots are always going off during season and I havn't seen it alarm animals!

Sounds like you're hunting in 'open spaces' in popular areas that any person can drive to. I'd suggest modifying your hunting style / tactics.

I've got video from last year where we had a little buck come in and bed down about 40 yards out. A couple hours later a bigger buck came through and buttshot stroked it. The buck died about 30 yards from the little guy and he kept on chewing. About twenty minutes later the little buck finally got up, stretched and walked into the timber.

Pretty funny stuff.

[J_T]

3x in 40 years ! Sounds like hunting with a bow during rifle season isn't a problem! Awsome.
Agree, it's a choice. You would also have to agree that unique opportunities become open to a bow weapon choice at any time. IE less restrictive, simply due to the nature of the weapon.

[Gunner]

I've got video from last year where we had a little buck come in and bed down about 40 yards out. A couple hours later a bigger buck came through and buttshot stroked it. The buck died about 30 yards from the little guy and he kept on chewing. About twenty minutes later the little buck finally got up, stretched and walked into the timber.

Pretty funny stuff.I've seen the same thing several times,a buddy whacked a big 5X5 mulie,through the shot and the subsequent cleaning and loading a spike and a 2 point lay chewing their cuds less than 50 yards away.I've been working my way in on feeding deer and heard a fairly close shot,and watched the deer lift their heads and then go back to browsing. Gunner

[Gateholio]

I've got video from last year where we had a little buck come in and bed down about 40 yards out. A couple hours later a bigger buck came through and buttshot stroked it. The buck died about 30 yards from the little guy and he kept on chewing. About twenty minutes later the little buck finally got up, stretched and walked into the timber.

Pretty funny stuff.

I lined up on a 4x4 buck in the alpine at about 200 yards. All I could see was his neck and his head, and about 5 yards away was his little 3x3 buddy, peeking up with just his head and neck, too. I was tucked nicely into a little hole and balanced the rifle on my backpack in front of me, which effectively made my little hole into a bench rest set up.

I lined up on the big guys neck and thought "perfect" and squeezed the trigger of my 7mm RM. BOOM. Nothing. I shot agian BOOM nothing!! Once more...BOOM! This time I see the bullet hit some rocks high and to the right of Mr Buck. I aimed low and to the left, drilled him in the neck, he goes right down. (Turns out I really SHOULD have checked my scope after the horse tried to beat the snot out of my rifle in it's scabbard, as when I tested it later it was way off....)

But anyway, we get up and start walking over rock to the dead buck and to our surprise, his buddy is lying down right next to him, eating! Must have thought his big buddy was having a nap!:-D

4 shots and he doesn't care!:-D

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I lined up on a 4x4 buck in the alpine at about 200 yards. All I could see was his neck and his head, and about 5 yards away was his little 3x3 buddy, peeking up with just his head and neck, too. I was tucked nicely into a little hole and balanced the rifle on my backpack in front of me, which effectively made my little hole into a bench rest set up.

I lined up on the big guys neck and thought "perfect" and squeezed the trigger of my 7mm RM. BOOM. Nothing. I shot agian BOOM nothing!! Once more...BOOM! This time I see the bullet hit some rocks high and to the right of Mr Buck. I aimed low and to the left, drilled him in the neck, he goes right down. (Turns out I really SHOULD have checked my scope after the horse tried to beat the snot out of my rifle in it's scabbard, as when I tested it later it was way off....)

But anyway, we get up and start walking over rock to the dead buck and to our surprise, his buddy is lying down right next to him, eating! Must have thought his big buddy was having a nap!:-D

4 shots and he doesn't care!:-D

Had a similar experience with a caribou....the whole herd(~20bou) was bedded ~100 yrds away and I anchored the big guy with a neck shot. I don't even think an ear twitched in the herd. Had to walk right up to them to get them to move.

Back to Reg 8................................................. .......:wink:

SSS

[coach]

Interesting stories guys! Anecdotes like this really highlight the reason there should be a break between GOS and bow season. The deer really need a rest and a chance to get their natural fight or flight senses back. What kind of challenge is it to sneak up on a deer that isn't even afraid of a rifle shot? :mrgreen:

[coach]

Back to the real discussion.. I'm surprised there hasn't been much in the way of comments regarding JT's bowhunter recommendations.



Sorry for being slow to get back to you I was traveling yesterday and unable to get online. In Region 8 bowhunters recommended:
Adjusting the late season archery Mule Deer hunt to commence following GOS. What we promote is an alignment with proposals for region 4.
And we recommended the early archery elk, which I believe is common with the OKBCWF proposal.
We also requested an increase in regional bag limit to 3. Again, similar to the one posted.
Provincially we recommend a Municipal ungulate management program. This does not suggest 'bow only' but an overarching program to manage municipal deer. Part of the solution might include shotgun, unique seasons, and involvement/authorization of the municipality. That perhaps the bag limit would not impact a "Provincial" bag limit.
We are also looking at extended turkey seasons (Dec 1 - 20) where it might be supported by populations and rancher/turkey conflict.


These suggestions look reasonable. I stated before I like the BCWF proposal regarding Dec 1-20 Mule deer late archery season - so I guess JT and I can agree to disagree on point one. Point 4 is the interesting one and fits with a question I asked on a previous thread. Anyone have anything to say?

[GoatGuy]

These suggestions look reasonable. I stated before I like the BCWF proposal regarding Dec 1-20 Mule deer late archery season - so I guess JT and I can agree to disagree on point one. Point 4 is the interesting one and fits with a question I asked on a previous thread. Anyone have anything to say?

It's in the works. Focus will be places like Kimberley, Crazybrook, Grand Forks.

[Gunner]

I'm really looking forward to a wolf season.Last Tuesday morning I came down my driveway at first light,headed out for spring geese.As I turned on to the main road I noticed 2 animals moving along the back of the big field across from my home(it's still covered with a foot+ of snow).I stopped right away as I knew for sure they weren't coyotes and none of my neighbours have dogs of that size.Got out my binos and watched 2 wolves followed by 4 ravens push through the snow down towards the Shuswap.Talked to a friend later that day,he had seen them 2 days before,again being followed by a bunch of ravens.The last day of whitetail season we cut 2 sets of wolf tracks less than 2 miles from home,I guess they're still hanging around. Gunner (Reported to Brian Harris!)

[358mag]

We have the shortest, most restrictive seasons on region 8 elk we've ever had. It used to be 3 point from Sept 10 to Nov 15!

Again, attempting to stockpile game is NOT a science-based approach to game management. You know that, but of course you just don't want someone else to shoot "your" elk.

And, elk hunter participation has dropped 60% in region 8 in the past 10 years. Isn't that low enough competition for you?
Well maybe lets see why the MOE did what they did.
Yes we use to have a 3 point Elk season back till 1999 the MOE change it to a 6 point season 10 Sep-20 Oct .From the MOE let me quote Junne7,2000
"This regulation change was implemented to elminate harvest pressure on immature bulls allowing for greater recuitment of bulls into the older age class and improving the bull/cow ratio. 1999 census 126 elk counted only 2 were spike bulls, 2000 census 111 elk counted 9 of whitch were bulls only one was greater than a spike While it is likely there were mature bulls in this population we were not ablte to count any in theer successive surveys< fly over helicopter>.a deficit of mature bull is further substantintiated by an analysis of tooth data < CI's>.There were no bulls greater than 3 years old harvested in the OK elk population since 1997 <there was no legal havest in 1999> For those reason we beliver our only option to "keep" hunting season open is to change the season from 3 point to 6 piont.
Have some elk harvest stats to from 2003 -2010 but sure you also have them . 60% less hunters sure seem to be havesting a decent ## of elk and the # keep going up every year but 2004 < down 3 bulls from 2003>, but there just stats and you can alway spin the stats to make them work for you.