Hybrid Theory

[PGKris]

This has probably been done but I wasn't in on it so I'm bringing it up. Mulie/Whitetail interbreeding. It happens and I'm told that the interbred offspring are not capable of reproduction and are therefore not a separate species. So my main concern, and I'm sure yours as well, is: If you shoot a deer you thought to be a mulie or a whitetail and it turns out to be a hybrid, which tag do you punch? Or if you only have a mulie or whitetail tag, do you get fined for shooting what you thought was a mulie/whitetail? I've been told that the CO's go by antler configuration, which in my books is the #1 ID for deer. But for deer with just 2pts, it's tough. I'm going to be in a few areas this fall where there are hybrids so I'm hoping to get some hard info on this.
Let the debate begin...
Kris

[brotherjack]

I have been told that you should probably call the C.O., show him what's up, and then punch whatever tag he tells you to. It only costs an extra $15 or whatever to have one of each while on your trip... Really-truly hybrids are out there (I got a buddy of mine who shot one a few years ago), but they are rarer than I think most people think - he'd been hunting for 30 years and never seen one till the one he shot.

[Steeleco]

It has been talked about here before but this one never gets boring!!
I called Victoria a few years back and asked them what's the main criteria for shooting and animal namely deer? Was it the Rack or the tail?
The answer I got was "if your not sure don't shoot" which is fine in most cases. But if you've got the tags which one to cut. if it's got a whitetail rump and a mulie rack what do you do if there's a restriction on one or the other but not both.

As far as reproduction, I call BS on them being sterile. People breed dogs of all kinds and their offspring are fertile. I bred tropical fish for years, breeding and cross breeding to get the traits we were looking for.

Mother nature sure is a funny thing, last time this came up one member told of a friend that shot a buck that had female genitals???

[sealevel]

All game is identifide by the horns so why not a hybred . You count tines not the size of its tail. But what happens if you shoot a buck in the late season in region 8 its a whitetail but has mulie horns. you don`t have to count the tines as its any whitetail buck. but mulies are closed.

[416]

I bred tropical fish for years,

You know, l met the guy and really liked him, but l always thought there was something a little different...:mrgreen: :mrgreen:



Personally, l always have both tags come hunting season and if l ever came across one l would make up mind as to what l am looking at and if shot, cancel the corresponding tag. If the C/O wants to make an issue that's their prerogative...... There is a difference poaching or going out of your way to break the law and making a judgement call that is open for interpretation.....IMHO

[Steeleco]

All game is identifide by the horns so why not a hybred . You count tines not the size of its tail. But what happens if you shoot a buck in the late season in region 8 its a whitetail but has mulie horns. you don`t have to count the tines as its any whitetail buck. but mulies are closed.

That's almost exactly what I asked a CO in Victoria and got the usual government answer, NONE!! He also said that they don't exist, I know they do because I passed on a whitetail buck that had a mulie rack but only had three points. I had both tags but mulie were closed (1day)

I suppose we'd better not ask too many times or they'll make us buy a hybrid tag as well.

[BCrams]

You should not be going entirely by antler configuration when hunting deer. They show the rump shots of mule deer and whitetails in the hunting regulations for a good reason. The antler shots are to help you know whats legal (example: 4 point mule deer).

You are going to be highly mistaken if you look shoot a big 3 point buck thinking its a whitetail and then you walk up to it to see a muley rump and announce to the world you shot a hybrid ........ fact is, you shot a 3 point muley. They look just like whitey antlers before they get their forks in the next year or two.

The fact people believe there are alot of hybrids (its quite rare) is funny and simply due to a lack of education in a simple sense.

Antler configuration changes. You can have a whitetail that will have non-typical characteristics to it and happen to have some forked tines near the tips ... making it appear similar to a mule deer. The fact is, you're likely just looking at a whitey with a non-typical antler.

A muley tail is a muley tail. There is no mistaking a muley tail.

A whitetail tail is a whitetail tail. They DO come in shades of colours when the tail is down from light tan to having a dark stripe (the darker shades tend to make hunters think they're looking at a hybrid when its not).

One guy on here showed me pictures of whitetails with black tails and said with a matter of fact that its a hybrid because of the tail ......... I also produced a photo showing the same thing and he said ....."yep, thats a hybrid" to which I just replied - that photo is from Pennsylvania ....not a muley for miles unless that was one wayward 'hybrid' lol.

This came up before and I will bring it up again --- if you think you have a hybrid - lets see the photos.

PGkris - give me the name of the dude who told you that antler configuration is purely what they go by.......I'll talk to him personally myself and get the scoop.

That being said, one just needs to read Val Giests Mule Deer Country to learn about hybrids......a farce ? lets see what claims you have to back yourself up as the expert!

[bighornbob]

I hate to break it to you guys but deer have all sorts of antler configurations. I have seen a lot of mule deer with only three points ( all coming off the main beam). Looked like whitetail antlers.

Rarer I have seen a whitetail with stickers coming off his G2's. Most likely non-typical characteristics but looked like mule deer anters.

Look at the body if it has a whitetail looking head, color and a whitetail tail, ragardless of antlers you tag a whitetail. Cross breed do happen but they are very very rare.

What happens if you shoot a whitetail with palmation characteristics in the antlers. Seen them in mags. Is this a moose/whitetail crossbreed? What would you tag?

BHB

[BCrams]

Thats right fellows BHB made good points also .... I've seen several with palmations too !!

I'd hate to shoot one, I'd be in such a twist over which of 3 tags to cancel.

[mainland hunter]

im sure id seen a hybrid doe while bear hunting this year. it had a whitetail face, mulie ears, a tail that was a solid tan color with a rump patch around it. i had read somewhere once that hybrid deer lose their natural defence strategies and are therefore killed off fairly quickly. ive also read that a mulie buck will not breed a whitetail doe but a whitetail buck will breed a mulie doe, meaning whitetails could in theory start to breed out mulies. i think i read this in petersens hunting mag so who knows how acurate that is

[Elkhound]

As far as reproduction, I call BS on them being sterile.

Mother nature sure is a funny thing, last time this came up one member told of a friend that shot a buck that had female genitals???

Sure got that right, a very good friend of mine has a pelt on his wall. He thought it was a fallow buck. Shot it. Closer inspection was that it was a hermaphrodite (Both sex organs) and was pregnant. 2 very rare conditions. Nature is incredible

[tmarschall]

The difference between cross-breeding and Hybrid-breeding gets confusing sometimes... maybe I can clarify for those who are not sure. Crossbreeding means that the genes are compatible to the point that the offspring can re-produce. This seldom happens between two different species. The sex genes have to line up when the two zygotes get together. There is usually enough difference between species that cross breeding produces a hybrid instead of a true cross breed. An example would be the cross between a horse and a donkey------ a Mule!! A mule cannot reproduce, but is got at what it was bred for. If a hybrid reproduces, its offspring will not necessarily have the same characteristics as the parent. To go any deeper really gets confusing... so I will stop here.

As far as mulies being a cross between a whitetail and a blacktail, there is a little more to the story. True that mulies have whitetails and blacktails as ancestors, but there was evidently some evolution that took place during the mellinia since the first two got together to create a cross breed. Apparently something about the white/blacktail cross allowed them to better exploit some niche in the habitat. So the mulies moved into that niche andset up their own camp so to speak. As times change, the camps of the mulies, whities and blackies can cross/overlap, thus you can see crosses and hybrids of all kinds. If any of these "new" species have characteristics that allow them to better exploit the habitat, a "new" species could result. An example of a survival characteristic could even be what has been discussed here on the forum. If they are not identifyable for certain as a whitey, blackie or mulie, some hunters may pass on the shot, allowing for future reproduction. Over the years, and it might take many lifetimes, a new species could develop... theoretically of course.... something to think about.... Tom

[todbartell]

personally its going to have to come downt ot he body type, not antlers

[bigwhiteys]

personally its going to have to come downt ot he body type, not antlers

Agreed, I've seen plenty of whitetails and muleys with some pretty wierd racks that could be interpreted in many different ways depending on who was looking at it.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[GoatGuy]

\ do you get fined for shooting what you thought was a mulie/whitetail?

Here's the answer:

YES!

Guy I was hunting with shot a 4 pt whitetail that was infact a mulie! Had a nice white ass and a black tail. Called the CO (who's a friend) and got a fine. CO agreed that it indefinitely had a white-tail rack but the rear end gave it all away.

How's that for an answer?

[PGKris]

Ok well I think anyone who says hybrids are rare hasn't hunted areas where they are. BCRams, you say in another thread that you've hunted 7-03 quite a bit. Well then you should have seen plenty of hybrids out that way. I can draw you a map to a field out behind McBride where I've been told on any given night you can watch a herd of mulies, a herd of whitetails and a herd of hybrids all at the same time in different parts of the field. This year I'm going to confirm that story, whether it be false or true. Hybrids are not all that rare. It's just that a lot of times, the different characteristics get blended together so well it's impossible to see any distinct characteristics.
Anyone who's hunted deer for any length of time can tell between a 3 point mulie antler and a 3 point whitetail antler. Those are everyday distinctions that you have to make in the field. AS far as non-typicals and weird racks go, that's the exception more than the rule. I'm not trying to say that I can't tell the difference between the two. Anyone can. It's when you get a rack that is clearly mulie and a great big white flag tail. Two unmistakeable characteristics on the same deer.
I said that antler configuration is my number one basis for judging deer. It is. But hey! hello! it's not the only thing I use to ID deer. If you don't know what it is, don't shoot. But I, for one, would love to have a hybrid hanging on my wall.
Kris

[GoatGuy]

Ok well I think anyone who says hybrids are rare hasn't hunted areas where they are. BCRams, you say in another thread that you've hunted 7-03 quite a bit. Well then you should have seen plenty of hybrids out that way. I can draw you a map to a field out behind McBride where I've been told on any given night you can watch a herd of mulies, a herd of whitetails and a herd of hybrids all at the same time in different parts of the field. This year I'm going to confirm that story, whether it be false or true. Hybrids are not all that rare. It's just that a lot of times, the different characteristics get blended together so well it's impossible to see any distinct characteristics.
Anyone who's hunted deer for any length of time can tell between a 3 point mulie antler and a 3 point whitetail antler. Those are everyday distinctions that you have to make in the field. AS far as non-typicals and weird racks go, that's the exception more than the rule. I'm not trying to say that I can't tell the difference between the two. Anyone can. It's when you get a rack that is clearly mulie and a great big white flag tail. Two unmistakeable characteristics on the same deer.
I said that antler configuration is my number one basis for judging deer. It is. But hey! hello! it's not the only thing I use to ID deer. If you don't know what it is, don't shoot. But I, for one, would love to have a hybrid hanging on my wall.
Kris

Hmmmmmm, on the first page of this thread there was a question posted by an individual with the same name as you - you seemed to have answered all those questions. Wish you would have posted up sooner and saved the rest of us our breath.

"If you shoot a deer you thought to be a mulie or a whitetail and it turns out to be a hybrid, which tag do you punch? Or if you only have a mulie or whitetail tag, do you get fined for shooting what you thought was a mulie/whitetail? I've been told that the CO's go by antler configuration, which in my books is the #1 ID for deer. But for deer with just 2pts, it's tough. I'm going to be in a few areas this fall where there are hybrids so I'm hoping to get some hard info on this."

I think this was the original question by the individual with the same handle as you. They (COs) don't go by antler configuration. Refer to above post.

[Steeleco]

I think if nothing else the powers that be need to address this issue SOON and in a DEFINATIVE way so the rest of us know exactly what to do when we cross one of these things.

But I know I'm dreaming, because when I talked to the biologist he told me that "hybrids won't show the traits of both parents, just the one with the dominant gene". How is it that those of us in the bush know different?

[BCrams]

PGkris -

You're kidding me right ......

Let me get this straight - I have hunted that area 7-03 for years (privvy to ranches to boot) as well as the Peace and other areas ..... and let me tell you something, I can draw you 100 maps where you can observe mule deer groups, whitetail groups and groups with both of them in different areas of a field.........does this make them hybrids or there are hybrids in there .....Not a chance.

Hybrids are not all that rare. It's just that a lot of times, the different characteristics get blended together so well it's impossible to see any distinct characteristics.

Just where did you pull this brilliant piece of opinion from ??? Certainly it did not come from Val Giest ..... where's your source .... and don't tell me its your own personal opinion as it won't fly.

You honestly really believe hybrids are common .....

Dude, as many deer as I've seen, I can't honestly say I've seen a bonafide hybrid that everyone talks about seeing ......you probably would sound like a couple fellas I've hunted with who would go, "Hey look at that funny lookin deer....must be a hybrid". They then honestly believe its a hybrid........and announce it to everyone who will listen.

[PGKris]

Ahh no. And who is this Val Giest who you've so nicely placed on a pedestal.....I'm talking genetics. Characteristics get blended. The blending comes from the combination of genotypes from the two separate species. It's called co-dominance. tmarschall got it pretty close. It gets real confusing to anyone without a background in genetics. I'm not saying every funny looking deer in the bush is a hybrid, I'm saying they're not as rare as some people would like to think. And I want to know for damned sure what to do if and when I shoot one, because if I'm standing in an area which is open to mulie and whitetail bucks (most of region 7A), if I see antlers, I'm shooting.
Once again we have the classic "I'm the guy on the ground, I know what I see!" view versus the "This is what science says!" view. This is not what i was aiming at with this thread. I wanted to find out if anyone had any definitive answers about what happens when you put one of these critters on the ground.
Kris

[Kirby]

PGkris, seeing as you know that much about genetics you should also know about complete dominance. Thats where one phenotype hides another phenotype:wink: this can happen as well.

Just curious but what is your background in genetics? Or Animal Biology?

Kirby

[bochunk2000]

Good thread!! I am learning about this topic and being entertained.:)

[PGKris]

I'm sure complete dominance occurs too. I think that this whole hybrid thing works almost like epistasis. But for the most part, what I've heard about these hybrids, is that they will show significant characteristics of both species. I'm third year Wildlife/Fisheries at UNBC. I'm defnitely not an expert, I don't claim to be. But it doesn't come down to animal ID, it comes down to......WTF!! How do you classify these critters. And being lambasted for saying that these hybrids exist and are somewhat prolific in certain areas is a bit over the top. I know they're there. I'm not a name dropper and I think the people that give me my info on these deer don't want to be used as cannon fodder. By the end of the fall I will have tried my damndest to figure out more about these deer.
Kris

[dana]

Dude, before you make a fool out of yourself even more, Go To The Library and read Mule Deer Country by Dr. Valerus Geist. If it is in my little library here, I'm sure it'll be in PG. Who is Val Geist you say? Only the most respected ungulate biologist on the planet. And yes, he has spent more time than most of us out in the field observing muleys.

[dana]

If you are going to UNBC and are indeed in your 3rd year and you don't know who Dr. Val Geist is, you either need to drop out and get into something else cause you haven't been paying attention in class or you need to drop out and switch schools. :) :)

[Bow Walker]

Interesting discussion of an interesting topic. I to am learning while being entertained.

I hope this continues in the same way - spirited, informative, and not personal.

[Kirby]

I think that this whole hybrid thing works almost like epistasis.
Kris

You think? Thats why your getting lambasted. Your stating opinions to people who have just as much, or more education about biology. Its easy to sway uneducated, much harder to impress people with knowledge too. And like Dana said grab giests book and read it. Then log onto the University library and bring up some scientific data. IDing the animal is one thing, questioning the data already collected is another. Perhaps you can do a masters on it.

On another note what do you think of the program there? I know a couple people going into it this year, I've heard good and bad about it.

Kirby

[GoatGuy]

I'm third year Wildlife/Fisheries at UNBC. I'm defnitely not an expert, I don't claim to be.
Kris

Kris,

Thought you were talking about going into forestry? Sticking with Wildlife/Fisheries??? That's great to hear!

If you can find a prof to support you and collect some data to support your theory funding could probably be found/come available should you want to do your master's.

You may be surprised to learn that a couple of folks on this board have gone through a bit more than their 3rd/4th years and are practicing bios/ hardcore hunters! They may even be people you know! :wink:

[dana]

Decided against Forestry???? Geeze, you actually may know what you're talking about then:mrgreen: :mrgreen: The industry will be on the verge of collapse by 2013 so chosing another field of study is indeed a good move.

[greybark]

If you are going to UNBC and are indeed in your 3rd year and you don't know who Dr. Val Geist is, you either need to drop out and get into something else cause you haven't been paying attention in class or you need to drop out and switch schools. :) :)

PgKris I agree with dana on this one and last I heard he retired and is living not far from your school .

[greybark]

:mrgreen: Most hunters are not aware of any deer cross untill they shoot it . One of the telltail signs may be a 4-5in long irregular tarsel gland . I onced rifled a large WT buck that had a typical MD antlers with 1in browtines .

REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

[tmarschall]

PGkris, seeing as you know that much about genetics you should also know about complete dominance. Thats where one phenotype hides another phenotype:wink: this can happen as well.

I'm a little confused by this post, I don't mean to throw stones, but as my old memory cells recollect, one phenotype cannot hide another phenotype. The phenotype of any animal is just that.... its own particular phenotype... phenotype being the physical expression of the animal's genes... or genotype. Genotypes is where you get into dominant or recessive characteristics.

For example, lets say that a whitey breeds with a mulie, and for argument's sake, lets say that white rump is the dominant gene. (I have no idea if either has dominance)The offspring will display white rumps as their phenotype. But you don't say that the white rump phenotype is dominant... it is the geneotype that is dominant. This particular genotypical trait is not influenced by the animal's environment.

On the other hand, take antler growth. A mulie buck may have the genes for a typical mulie rack, but because of injury, or maybe diet, it may not display the typical mulie genotype. It may have a genotype like that of a whitetail.... long tines with no forks. If the buck's parents were both mulies, there is no issue of dominance, it is an issue of phenotype, due to injury or not enough groceries. It would be correct to say that the phenotype is dominant over the genotype, but the phenotype is not dominant over another phenotype. Lets say next season the buck gets enough groceries, then he will display a phenotype that is consistent with its genotype.

But what if this buck was the product of crossbreeding...... nevermind.... its getting too deep.... LOL.... I will continue if anyone is really interested in my ramblings.... hope this confuses a few folks out there.... Tom

[BCrams]

Kris,

I would highly recommend listing to Dana's, Kirby's and Goatguys advice. There are even those on line without having gone the route to be a biologist and they are more in tune with what is going on than you are.

For someone who is all high and mighty on mule deer, whitetails and hybrids - I am surprised you have not heard of Dr. Valerius Geist and his books / papers he has written --- which include of all things --> hybrids.

There are folks here that probably have viewed, watched and learned from mule deer and whitetails more in 1 month than you have your entire life so far. My eyes roll everytime this hybrid issue comes up because frankly, I've seen a hell of alot of deer and I've yet to even see anything that would make me think it was a hybrid. It is such a rarity........

I think you and 3kills should team up....... like yourself, he thinks hybrids are pretty common in his neck of the woods down by Merritt. :)

[dana]

No one is disputing the fact of Muley/whitetail crosses. Yes they do exist. If you read Geist you'll see he has researched the issue pretty extensively. What we are disputing is the statement that crosses are common and that you determine that by antler configuration.

Have I ever seen a cross? Yes, I believe I have seen one. I have observed thousands of deer in my life and I can only say I believe I've only seen one. It was a fawn of a whitetail doe. It had muley ears, muley colouration and muley rump. It's tail was long and jet black with an enormous football size growth in the middle of it. When it ran it flagged. It was the strangest looking creature I've ever seen.

[dana]

This issue BCrams and I have discussed in detail in the past because having a whitetail bred by a muley is the rarest form of a cross. Typically when a cross happens it is the other way around, muley doe whitetail buck.

[greybark]

;-) Hey Dana and BCrams , Years ago the Scientific America magazine did a detailed artical on WT/MD crosses at the U of Edmonton. They had a time lapse photo (three page foldout) of three deer running down a controlled fence coridor.
The MD did his STOTTING run . The WT did his GALLOPING run. The WT/MD cross did something between the two styles of running . That was long ago . It was an example of just how complex genetics can be .

REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

[dana]

According to Geist, crosses neither stott nor run. They don't inherit the survival characteristics of either parent. So they therefore are very susceptable to predation. With the predator levels that we have in much of the province, it would indeed be rare to encounter a mature cross, therefore making it extremely rare indeed that a hunter would shoot one.

[BCrams]

Darn, Dana beat me to it.

Thats correct, chances of a hybrid living long enough to become mature is quite miniscule. Particularly with all the yotes and wolves we have!!

[dana]

Don't forget the lions.;-) That Merrit country must just be void of predators eh?:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[BCrams]

;-) gotcha !

[rock]

10 yrs ago a buddy of mine shot a perfect 4 point whitetail on further inspection it was a doe safe to say we where both confused. all in all talking to the co's the next day everything work out fine and he was able to keep the deer.

[mainland hunter]

thats why the tags use the words antlered and antlerless iinstead of doe or buck

[abbyfireguy]

Getting back to the original question ,,what does one do if one shots a so called hybrid...All genetics,zygotes,dominant characteristics etc,etc aside,,,,lets find out what happens after the trigger is pulled...
My head is aching from reading all this egg-head haggling,,,lets address the question because sooner or later one of us is going to be faced with a CO with little or no understanding that hybrids do exist .We should expect something other than rigid rubber stamped go by the letter of the law decisions....
These are kind of odd animals, and it would seem that they could fall into either mulie or white-tail classification...
It would be nice to know the CO would be basing his decisions on something other than what kind of mood he was in that day, or if he was a Ford man and you were driving a Dodge...;-)

[BCrams]

To begin with, its such a rarity and the odds of one reaching maturity where it would get shot is so miniscule.

Just have a look at the tail. If its a whitetail tail, its a whitey, if its a mule deer tail / rump, its a mule deer. I am sure we can dive into this further but we wouldn't want to complicate things would we.

Quite simple......really......and just using common sense.

[Steeleco]

Not to stir the pot anymore but I don't think it's that simple. I've seen two, without a doubt. One buck one doe, the buck was whitetail in everyway except the rack it was a 3x3 mulie rack. I didn't shoot it because I wasn't sure what I was looking at. But if I had and had been stopped at a game check what would I say to the officer? Rare as they may be there needs to be a guidline for us all to follow.

[BCrams]

Steelco - you don't need to tell the officer anything, that officer would recognize that its a whitetail.

That 3x3 rack was still a whitetail rack. The angle in which the antlers protrude from the head probably factored in this one. Not all antlers have to be exact etc. One needs to only look at the buck Randy Lloyd shot a few years back and is tops in the book. Reduce it to a 3 point size while maintaining the antler shape upwards and you'd thing it was a whitetail with a mule deer antler.

Before you interject - I have seen 3 point whitetails (even in Saskatchewan) that if you really looked at it, looked like it would be right at home on a muley bucks body as a 3 point, but its not a hybrid.

Without a doubt in your own mind ........ but most likely wasn't. The power of ones own belief can be so strong that years after seeing something, they refuse to change that view of what they saw.

Poor example here but its like a casual city person who saw a big grizzly and was so convinced and disillusioned that he saw a sasquatch and to this day, believes he saw a sasquatch. :mrgreen:

The number of individuals on this site alone piping up they've seen hybrids would indicate its a rather common occurence provincewide........when the fact of the matter and everything written about hybrids points the other direction.

With that -- as I have before -- I issue a challenge to anybody on this hunting site to actually show me a hybrid --- dead or alive here in BC. And better yet, give me the name or names of wildlife professionals who will back up your statements.....and I am not talking about CO's... alot of CO's don't know squat and were probably just like someone we know on here when they came out of school right into the job without any prior experience.

If someone can actually prove this about hybrids (and I don't want to see a mule deer rack mounted on a whitetail cape -- I've seen plenty of those jokes) I will acknowledge it, on this site........."ok, just maybe, we're looking at something here!".......

Seeing how alot of folks here, yourself included have seen hybrids, I don't think it would be any problem bringing that evidence here.

[bochunk2000]

Seeing how alot of folks here, yourself included have seen hybrids, I don't think it would any problem bringing that evidence here
Well said.

TSMarschall I would like to hear more about Geno/Phenotypes.

[PGKris]

You guys post too much. Aside from all the personal attacks and heckling directed at me (I really don't care who has the degree or who's talking out thier @ss. If you know what you're talking about you wouldn't need to personally attack me.....leave it alone and talk DEER), abbyfireguy said it best....what happens when you blast one of these critters? I don't care who says they're not common enough to worry about. There are guys here who have seen them and I have it on really good authority that the areaI plan to hunt this september has a substantial number of them. So since it appears NOONE has any consistent answers as to what happens when you shoot one, I guess I'll find out when and if I do.
Thanks
Kris

[BCrams]

Kris - its no personal attack on you...... who is this good authority anyways ????? You need to put some substance on what you're saying, including your source.

Some of us are really keen to see these hybrids considering they appear so abundant (myself included). You, yourself, said you can see a whole herd of them in a field separate from whitetails and mule deer all at the same time behind McBride.

It should be pretty easy to confirm it this weekend as those deer are in those fields in the valley all summer long too. I dare you, double dare you to go out there in the next two weekends and take pictures of those hybrids. Its just a measly 2 hour drive ... you can make a day trip of it.

I hunt there and have put more time out there than I care to admit and I am authority enough to declare and tell you, there are not the hybrids you're talking about.

[30-06]

this is a bit off the topic but what ever happened with that polar/grizzly bear that guy shot

[bigwhiteys]

30-06.

That bear was in fact proven to be a Grizzly/Polar bear hybrid. The gentleman was allowed to keep his trophy as well.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[tmarschall]

BoChunk.... here goes....

Back to a hypothetical situation where a buck is a hybrid/cross WT/MD. In case one, lets say that mulie antler formation is dominant. If all goes well, he will show the mulie antler phenotype, because of the dominance of the mulie antler gene. If he don't get enough groceries, his antlers may recess into a whitetail phenotype, but that will be due to his diet, not because he is carrying the WT antler gene.
In case two, lets say that the WT antler gene is dominant. The buck will dispaly the WT phenotype, unless, his particular WT gene has traits that will cause his tines to fork, which some whitetails do have. In years of good food supply, he might show the MD phenotype.
So you see... it can really be a crap shoot. Phenotype can not always be an accurate indication of genotype. When it comes down to shooting a suspicious animal, you have to rely on the preponderance of the evidence, antlers, ears, rump, tail etc.

[tmarschall]

Here is some interestring reading on the topic..... check out the area on deer hybrids.... some concern for elk herds also!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stag#Hybrid_deer

[30-06]

thanks bigwhiteys

[bighornbob]

I always find it funny that when somebody quotes a world renowned expert on deer like Mr. Geist who says "hybrids are very very rare" you get other guys saying they are very plentiful becuase they go hunting or spend time in the woods.

I personnally have an open mind to it. Do hybrids exist, yes. Do they exist in large numbers anywhere, I doubt it very much.

Its like bigfoot, does he exist, maybe. Even experts say there may be something and there is always some evidence. Do people who clame to have seen them say they have seen a bunch no its always one animal. Not a heard or pack or group.

Regardless if I see a hybrid or bigfoot I will paying a visit to taxidermist:biggrin:

BHB

[mainland hunter]

i think most CO's will look at the animal that has been shot and make a judgment call on whether or not you had reason to believe you were shooting at the species you were after. i dont think too many CO's are out there trying to crucify guys who are making an effort to be legal, of course if you're a dick to them probably you'll get nailed.

[PGKris]

I'm not wasting 50 bucks in perfectly good gas money (which I could spend to go fishing) to prove something on the internet for pete sake. Get real. Like I said, not using names as cannon fodder. I've never seen a hybrid. But I have it from more than one person that they're out in that area. I never said they were plentiful. I said they're somewhat prolific in certain areas. Wait your friggin time and we'll see what I can find during hunting season. I'm with BHB, bigfoot or hybrid, heading to the taxidermist (right after I post my pics here :D )

Oh BTW mainland, that's what bugs me.....judgement call? What happens if you get the CO that missed his coffee and had his truck keyed that morning? There is way too much grey area here.
Kris

[BCrams]

For your sake, and credibility, I would highly suggest a fishing trip out in that direction and check those deer from those ""CREDIBLE"" sources of yours. It won't be a waste of gas.

I can hardly believe after reading some of these posts that you still actually believe they're prolific in some areas from others. :shock:

You do know what prolific means don't you --> abundant....of which hybrids are so not!

[PGKris]

Ya OK I'll get right on that....major credibility loss.....mmhmmm.....pics to come. BTW....exactly what made you an expert on the topic again? You read a book........and you've hunted 7-03 a lot.....cool.....

[willyqbc]

play nice kiddies...this thread has been somewhat interesting and informative...hate to see it dgenerate into something we will have to remove.

Chris

[mainland hunter]

if you get Bigfoot, ill stuff him for free. provided i wont get arrested

[Steeleco]

Without a doubt in your own mind ........ but most likely wasn't. The power of ones own belief can be so strong that years after seeing something, they refuse to change that view of what they saw.
On this I would have to agree. But as Kris has asked so long ago!!! It's the "what if", I'm worried about. I had so much doubt at that time I let it walk, had it been a day eariler I may have had something to talk about and pictures to go with my belief. I follow the rules like the rest of us and don't want that CO that's not getting any at home to stop me. :cool:

[Steeleco]

if you get Bigfoot, ill stuff him for free. provided i wont get arrested

Your on Mr. and I have witnesses, HUM which gun to use???

For the record I think they exist, but I won't get into why here!!!!
Now back to the original programing.

[dana]

Before you guys get too carried away you should know that under the Wildlife Act of BC both Bigfoot and Ogopogo are protected species. :)

BCRams has told you the answer to the question. If (don't be holding your breath that you'll ever see one let alone kill one) you drop a hybred, you go by the tail. If you think you have a cross on the ground, you better pray to God you have the right tag in your pocket and the species of that tail is open. The CO's will go by the tail. Antler configuration is out of the question. If you want to press the issue, I'm sure you can get your lawyers to do a DNA test to prove you didn't shoot a hybred.:roll:

But, all these issues aside, maybe some of you should read your regs. "If in doubt, don't shoot." Given the fact that most areas in the province have antler restrictions and the such, there is no room for cowboy shooting. Shoot first ask questions later. If you are that type of hunter, you are bound to have way bigger issues to deal with than the question of whether an animal is a cross or not.:eek:

[greybark]

;-) To those who insist there is a lot of hy-breds out there . In over 45 years of hunting WT and MD in the Rock Ck area of BC , I have seen only one of what i am reasonably sure was a Hy-bred and only one small doe with antlers. Lets see now , For proof of another one it would be another 45 years . Lets not count on it . LOL

REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

[Gateholio]

BC rams

please dump ome of your PM's both coming and going...We onlyhave 50 PM capacity here for some reason...

[GoatGuy]

On this I would have to agree. But as Kris has asked so long ago!!! It's the "what if", I'm worried about. I had so much doubt at that time I let it walk, had it been a day eariler I may have had something to talk about and pictures to go with my belief. I follow the rules like the rest of us and don't want that CO that's not getting any at home to stop me. :cool:


Here's the what if. CO went by the ass- black tail and white ass. Agreed that it was a white tail rack through and through. The individual that shot the buck has dumped more sheep, moose and deer than most have seen and shot it as a white tailed. Saw the back end after the kill, called it in and had it confiscated by the CO.

So there's your answer. Don't shoot unless you're damned sure. You asked the question and there's you're answer,. Guy could have taken it to court but really wasn't that worried about a 140 class whitey.

Kris, hybrids aren't behind every tree. If you want to be by the law make sure you have the back end cleared out. If you aren't sure DON'T SHOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's that simple.


THERE'S YOUR ANSWER!

As I mentioned there are a couple on this board who are biologists and several who have hunted the areas you've mentioned. Some of them have shot book bucks and others have passed up what most would consider monsters. A lot of guys who have hunted that country live in your neck of the woods.

Some might have even trained you at some point in your life!!!!!:wink: :wink: :wink:

Take everything as it comes and believe it when you see it. Hybrids do occur but they aren't that common. Sound good???? Remember, you asked the question.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Dana,You want some more fun. :lol:

[Ddog]

so most of you that have posted on this do believe hybrid deer exist, and also alot of people here are in the woods seeing all sorts of deer, where"s all the pictures of the hybrids?

I HAVE A PICTURE OF A MULE DEER WITH WHITETAIL ANTLERS, in my opinion it is a hybrid.
and he is a dandy buck
cheers...ddog

[Tinney]

I been waitin for this. Where is it? MattB alluded to something like this coming up

[Ddog]

I been waitin for this. Where is it? MattB alluded to something like this coming up

do you mean you have been waiting for a picture of a hybrid?

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Tinney,I think its your move,or is this check mate.:lol:

[Tinney]

Well, I've now heard from three different folks that someone is holding onto a hybrid deer pic but that they're too pansy to post it up and take the heat. The razz is gettin old boys, let's get down to seein if this thing is real or not.

[Tinney]

BHF shut up. You annoy me. The joke is always over your head

[Ddog]

i wish i knew how to post these pics,,can anyone help me. and yes i have the pics and yes i have sent them to few people on here and asked them not to post until.....is it time?

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Tinney, What joke? You make comments that you know a field where herds of Hybrid deer come out every night,and you want people to take you seriously.Then they make fun of you and you go cry,and say you are leaving this site for good,only to return and hide under another name.You are a hybrid :cry:

[LEH]

im sure id seen a hybrid doe while bear hunting this year. it had a whitetail face, mulie ears, a tail that was a solid tan color with a rump patch around it. i had read somewhere once that hybrid deer lose their natural defence strategies and are therefore killed off fairly quickly. ive also read that a mulie buck will not breed a whitetail doe but a whitetail buck will breed a mulie doe, meaning whitetails could in theory start to breed out mulies. i think i read this in petersens hunting mag so who knows how acurate that is

I've been in my treestand and have watched a three point whitetail deer chase around sniffing at all the mule deer does. I had at least 4 mule deer does as well as their fawns and, he never passed up one doe, he sniffed every last one of them. He came around several times that morning, this guy was on a mission. Interesting.

[Steeleco]

OK First off!!! Debate the existence of the creatures all you like, DON'T make it personal, bad things happen when you do!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/steeleco/fwgreenbuck004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/steeleco/fwgreenbuck003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/steeleco/fwgreenbuck002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/steeleco/fwgreenbuck001.jpg

I'd like to think I've seen two hybrids, but none as convincing as this. For details about the pictures Ddog is the man!!!

Remember Debate not insults!!

[Tinney]

Enough for me. Eat crow boys. I aint arguing this one anymore lol. ........*****

[ianwuzhere]

no arguin there...

[Fisher-Dude]

That's a three point mule deer. A really nice buck too! Kinda like this is a four point mule deer. Got anything else?

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/widerack1.jpg

[Jetboater]

OK First off!!! Debate the existence of the creatures all you like, DON'T make it personal, bad things happen when you do!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/steeleco/fwgreenbuck004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/steeleco/fwgreenbuck003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/steeleco/fwgreenbuck002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/steeleco/fwgreenbuck001.jpg

I'd like to think I've seen two hybrids, but none as convincing as this. For details about the pictures Ddog is the man!!!

Remember Debate not insults!!

Non typical but not hybrid!! too much junk forming!. Till some one photographs the bucks chasing wrong does or a photo of a herd of hybrids then I call Bull$HIT.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

My dad shot a big mulie that has antlers that are palmated and look exactly like a moose,the fact is there are alot of muledeer with wierd antlers ,I also believe there are hybrids but they are very rare,but for a 19 year old greenhorn to say there are fields of them near Mcbride tells me this guy couldnt tell you the diffrence between a bobcat and a lynx. :|

[ARC]

OK First off!!! Debate the existence of the creatures all you like, DON'T make it personal, bad things happen when you do!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/steeleco/fwgreenbuck004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/steeleco/fwgreenbuck003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/steeleco/fwgreenbuck002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/steeleco/fwgreenbuck001.jpg

I'd like to think I've seen two hybrids, but none as convincing as this. For details about the pictures Ddog is the man!!!

Remember Debate not insults!!

I am not sure if this was posted as a joke or not, but is there honestly anybody out there that would consider shooting this animal thinking it was a whitetail??? I would be very surprised if there is a CO in the province that would even consider, for half a second, letting someone tag that as a whitey. Unless that thing has a big broad whitetail tail, there is no question....it's just a mule deer with slightly odd antlers.

[bigwhiteys]

Yeah I'd like to see someone tag that as a whitetail deer too... Ha Ha.... Have fun getting your horns back. Nice looking buck though.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[Browningmirage]

That may look like a whitey, but there are no pics of the back end. Antlers can grow in wierd shapes, i saw a pic of a deer with them growing down and around his head, almost piercing his neck. The whole thing is, dont base all of your ID on the antlers. If you see a nice deer with horns, scope it out, if you have a tag for the antler configuration, possibly get ready, but also make sure the back end is your main ID, judge the body, not the horns.

[Browningmirage]

This summer, i caught a spring salmon out by Port Hardy. This may be off topic a bit, but the tail was not that of a spring, but it looked like a coho. The thing that you go by for salmon if in doubt is the mouth, springs have strong black mouths, cohos also have strong mouths, but the gums are white. Look at the body, not the add ons

[3kills]

My dad shot a big mulie that has antlers that are palmated and look exactly like a moose,the fact is there are alot of muledeer with wierd antlers ,I also believe there are hybrids but they are very rare,but for a 19 year old greenhorn to say there are fields of them near Mcbride tells me this guy couldnt tell you the diffrence between a bobcat and a lynx. :|

hell i dont think i could tell the difference between a linx and a bobcat lol....but i have to agree if thats a hybrid then so was the buck i took this year....i believe they are out there but i dont think thats one....

[dana]

First off,
MattB didn't allude to anything, Steveo32 did. :) The fact of hybrid's existance is not in question. The claim that they are all over the friggin place taking over complete fields in McBride and Merrit is. They are RARE!!! How many times does one have to say that. I believe it was in this thread (maybe a different PGKris thread) where I said I have actually seen one before. One! Not a field of them frolicing and playing.

As for the pics of the muley in the flower garden, give me a break. Pure Muley through and through. No doubts at all. Antler configuration is of a young nontypical. Looks like one with a lot of potential to be a slammer in 3 or 4 years. If someone were to hammer him and try to cut their whitey tag they would surely be hammered by a CO and be facing a hefty fine.

[Iron-Head]

Enough for me. Eat crow boys. I aint arguing this one anymore lol. ........***** Your a joke... Why are you back again, Missed all your 'buds' on HBC;) . Lol, Ill laugh my f'in ass off
:lol:

[3kills]

hey dana i never said there was fields of them in merritt...and i have never claimed to see any i have told things that have been told to me....

[GoatGuy]

Enough for me. Eat crow boys. I aint arguing this one anymore lol. ........*****

You're a sucker for punishment, aren't you???:)

[browningboy]

Need a moose to nail a few does, then you'll have a definate hybred, funny thing is that some guys would still consider it a whitetail!:lol:

[Ddog]

first off... ARC bigwhiteys. no-one ever said they would shoot this animal and try to pass it off as a WT.
Dana... so in your old, wise opinion it is a mulie through and through, well,, the fact of the matter is this animal will never get to be another 3 or 4 years older cause he is around 10 -12 yrs old now so your assumption is completely wrong. Fact of the matter in this case is there has even been a biologist here and he assumes it is a hybrid.
1- the ears
2- the antlers.
and if you look yes you can see his tail complete, rope like tail with a black tip.

[browningboy]

Okay all seriousness, the deer in the flower bed can be passed off as a whitetail, almost all the markings look mule but a mules antlers are bifurcated ( antlers fork at each joint) and whitetails antlers stem off the main beam, and what does this deers antlers do??? To say it's a weird growth or whatever is irrelavent, and without seeing the tail and looking at it no co will argue with you, its antler configuration is that of a whitetail, no beefs on that. As well the ears don't seem as large as normal and it does have a little white around the nose and eyes.

[dana]

d-dog,
Who was the biologist? Is he a crack addict too? I challenge you to sign up on Monster Muleys and post those pics. I betcha not one of those die hard muley nuts would call that anything but muley through and through. Did the biologist age that buck too? How'd he do that? Did he pull a tooth? It scares the $hit out of me to hear that CO's and biologist's are that naive that they know nothing about the animals they are commenting about. What are we teaching in the schools nowadays? Goatguy tell me it ain't the norm that guys like PGkris are enrolled in the programs nowadays. If a guy can't tell the difference between a muley and a whitey then how the hell are they going to manage our wildlife effectively?

[Hidehanger]

I'm a biologist and I'll tell you there are Mule deer and white-tail hybrids...they are both odicoilus, the fact that one species is hemionus and the other virginianus should only make you question the viability of that offspring to reproduce on its own.....there is no difference in the sperm size or the egg pore size...they both fit....now give it a rest! Here's some other earth shattering news...steelhead and chinook can also cross...as can brown trout and coho....as can small and large-mouth bass....as can grizzly and polar bears.....gez!

[dana]

Browning boy,
Ears look perfect size to me. Young bucks have an average ear spread of 18 inches. Older bucks average ear spread is 22 inches although I have seen 25 and 26 inch ear spread. The facial mask is not that of an old buck. Young, young, young. Old bucks are grey, grizzelled, ripped ears with a tattered and torn cape. Age means scars. And lots of them.

[browningboy]

Hey hidehanger, whats your take on the lawn art deer, its antlers are whitetail but the body is a mule, I personally think the main beams are very distinctive, but in the end who cares, nothing like hunting moose!

[dana]

Hidehanger,
As stated many many times in this thread, there is no disputing the fact that hybreds exist, the dispute is that they are rampant across the province. In your proffessional opinion, do you think the flower bed buck is a cross?

[browningboy]

Dana,
Theres no denying the "look" of the deer being a mule through and through, but the way I see the horns , its layed out like a whitey, no forks, and a solid main beam (no bifurcation), where do you get a mule rack out of this?:|

[bigwhiteys]

first off... ARC bigwhiteys. no-one ever said they would shoot this animal and try to pass it off as a WT.
Dana... so in your old, wise opinion it is a mulie through and through, well,, the fact of the matter is this animal will never get to be another 3 or 4 years older cause he is around 10 -12 yrs old now so your assumption is completely wrong. Fact of the matter in this case is there has even been a biologist here and he assumes it is a hybrid.
1- the ears
2- the antlers.
and if you look yes you can see his tail complete, rope like tail with a black tip.


Shoot the buck and show me DNA evidence proof it's a hybrid. Just because someone is a CO doesn't mean SQUAT and because a biologist "looked" at it doesn't mean squat either...

I've seen all kinds of bucks "this" guy and "that" guy have shown me to be hybrids and I call bullshit everytime. I don't doubt they exist but until I've seen a dead one with some DNA proof then sorry... Pics mean zero.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[browningboy]

Wow!, big whiteys, how does that response make you feel!!:lol: LOL

[dana]

Browning boy,
I guess you ain't looked at a enough muley racks if you somehow think that is a whitey rack. I've personally got a ton of sheds in my bonepile that aren't forked like the 'classic' image of a muley that you have in your mindseye. I've seen a ton of bucks live on the hoof that have that same look as the little young buck in the flower bed. I've got friends that are professional photographers and videographers that live no where near whitetails that take pics and video of bucks with similiar antler characteristics. Just because a muley doesn't fork doesn't mean it ain't a muley. Muley racks are like people, they come in all shapes and sizes.

[bigwhiteys]

BBoy,

It's a dispute that has gone on here forever... There are several Bio's that read this site, there are probably several CO's to. I've hunted lot's of muleys and whitetails and there is ZERO mistaking that deer for a whitetail (for me anyways). It's a mule deer and if I shot it I would tag it as such.

End of story.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[Hidehanger]

There's lots I don't know about that photo...where was it? Are there many mulies and white-tails that overlap in range there? Is this antler configuration common there? Was it hanging with white-tails or mulies? So I can't give you a great answer...I would say though that if the male was a white-tail and the doe a mulie it's possible because genetic traits fror antler development, from what I have read, come primarily from the father...the only way to know for sure is by DNA....sorry to dodge your question that way....
The 2 hybrids I have seen look goofy to me...both have had a mixture of traits like big ears and a white-tail head/markings or a hugely awkward body and tiny little mulie antlers and a white-tail tail...both from the Grand Forks and Midway region....they were truly a donkey/horse cross...kinda ugly actually....

[dana]

Good dodge, but that ain't good enough for me. Look at the photo. If someone handed you that photo what is the first thing that comes to your mind. Avoid the PC BS, I want to know what you would call it.

[browningboy]

Dana, its true, anything is possible and it may very well be a mule, but it probly has some WT genes in there, thats a pretty strong WT configuration on the rack, one main beam with stem off tines, I'm not a mule "nut" like yourself, but if you were to take just the rack, no deer in the background, I bet you would get different opinions?:| I've got a few respectable whiteys and mules over the years and seen a good amount of racks (help my buddy "stuffing" animals), but I don't hunt deer, my heart's into moose, elk and bear.8)

[dana]

Browning Boy,
The only whitey genes are from thousands and thousands of years ago when the whitetail and the blacktail created the muley.

[bigwhiteys]

but if you were to take just the rack, no deer in the background, I bet you would get different opinions?

BBoy, I agree with you 100% completely on that statement. But fortunately we are looking at the deer as a "whole".

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[Fisher-Dude]

That deer in the garden is as muley as they get. The ears are normal muley, the face is muley...whitetails have a longer, pointier nose, white eye rings, brown (not black) forehead. The body screams muley with the dark grey coat, brown legs, yellow ass. As dana says, this guy is a young buck...3.5 years I would expect, with great genetics. Look at the muley buck I posted earlier on this thread...he's older...scars and grizzled white face. Anyone who thinks this mule deer is anything close to a whitetail should surrender their license and take the CORE course again. Anyone who needs to see the tail of a whitetail to identify it as such should also take the CORE course again.



Is the whitetail below a hybrid because its G2s fork like a muley's? NO!!!!!!! It's just the way its antlers grew.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/wt-150-c_jackson.jpg

[browningboy]

Well, big whitey, thats all I was saying, but anyways, better off to have both species in the booklet in case you run across one of those "crosses", c'mon Dana wouldn't you agree!:lol:

[BCrams]

browning -

Antlers come in all shapes and sizes. 3 point mule deer bucks that have not reached maturity (young bucks) or old regressed bucks past their prime will frequently take on the form of a whitetail shape if you were to stand it alone away from the rest of the body. This does not make it part whitetail or a hybrid.

The most common error hunters make when seeing a 3 point mule deer is assuming its a hybrid because the 3 point configuration looks like a whitetail buck when it is in fact a mule deer. The claim bucks are hybrids almost always centre around bucks that are 3 pointers or bucks with extra's that are just simply non-typical points. Because antler configuration is never the same between bucks and shapes / sizes vary - it is no surprise that a mule deer buck with 3 point configurations along with a non-typical point or two can take on a very realistic looking whitetail shape when its naturally still just a 3 point muley.

I have seen pictures alive and dead of far too numerous 3 point bucks to know that its natural. To the uneducated - it is automatically assumed to be a hybrid because the antlers look like a whitey.

Hybrids do exist and have been documented. However they are such a rarity that I would highly doubt the claims to be the number of hybrids running around as stated by hunters.

I even have a couple pics of dead 3 point muleys taken in areas with no whitetail populations that would be a dead ringer whitetail rack when stood alone and if I didn't say anything - you would adamantly claim it was a hybrid.

When identifying the deer species you are after - you need to identify it primarily by tail. They are pretty easy to distinguish. After all - if you are in doubt - you shouldn't be pulling the trigger.

[browningboy]

Yes I know guys, its getting off topic, alls I'm saying if the rack was off the deer and you asked people WT or mule, the opinions would vary in where you have the body intact, its quite simple. I was just saying that the antler configuration is damn close to a whitey and it could have some genes in it as it doesn't come across too often, usally it's a dead ringer either way, but the lawn art's rack was pretty cool, the "racks" look only was just like a whitey, I personally thought it had a little white around the eyes but not like a whitetail, the body was a distinctive mule, no doubts about that. If you really want to start something, start talking about ducks, brants etc. :lol: :|

[3kills]

here is another prime example of a 3 point mulie lookin like a whitie...i held my uncles whitie from a couple years up to it and it looked identical except his buck had longer brows...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/3killslookin4more/deerpics008.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/3killslookin4more/deerpics009.jpg

[browningboy]

Hi 3Kills, your buck is a very distinctive mule, easy to pick out joints etc. but did you make pepporoni or hamburger?:lol:

[Kirby]

Alright, here we go... Lets do this scientifically.


Hybridization between white-tail deer and mule deer has been documented, and the offspring proven viable (Soper 1964 and Kramer 1973). The presence of which has been in dispute not over the existence, but the number of. Now we have a picture of what is said to be a mule deer/white-tailed deer hybrid.
If we break the picture into several parts we can use several the standards set forth by Wishart(1980). Unfortunatly the lack of photo angles doesn’t allow the use of all observations.

Tail
“The most striking feature of all hybrids described was the dark tail shaded into black towards the tip” Wishart W.D. 1980
The photo of the buck in this thread has an obviously white tail, with a black tip. Of the hybrids observed, photographs, over the course of the study and previously observed hybrids, the hybrids were observed to have dark tails shading into black.

MetaTarsal glands
“The most significant and consistent hybrid character was the intermediate locationa and size of the metatarsal gland and the conspicuous white or mostly white hairs that surrounded the gland” Wishart W.D. 1980
Unfortunatly these photos do not show a good picture of the metatarsal gland. However, hybrids were recorded to have a tarsal gland higher up, and white. While the mule deer were brown. What is shown of the metatarsal gland show a brown gland with brown hair surrounding it.

For those not familiar with the metatarsal gland
http://www.whitetailstewards.com/glossaryonsite/metatarsalgland.htm (http://www.whitetailstewards.com/glossaryonsite/metatarsalgland.htm)

Rump patch
Another observation of the hybrids recorded in the studies was the fact that the pure bred mule deer have a very obvious and conspicuous rump patch (Alberta Gov 2006) while white tail deer are lacking in this.
The Hybrids were recorded to vary from either a inconspicuous rump patch or poorly developed, to no rump patch present. Again if we turn out eyes towards the pictures within the thread you will see a very obvious and noticeable white ass. That’s its rump patch.

Antlers:
The use of antlers to determine the species present is an unfavorable means. As stated and observed by most people mule deer are capable of growning different styles of antlers, both dichotomous and not dichotomous.
Hybrid males were recorded to have both styles of antlers, however I couldn’t find any literature to back up the maturity or the actual antler size.

Cited Literature:

William D. Wishart. Hybrids of White-Tailed and Mule Deer in Alberta,
Journal of Mammalogy, 1980 Vol 61 no 4 pg 716-720

Kramer, A. 1973. Interspecific behaviour and dispersion of two sympatric deer species. Journal of Wildlife Management. Vol 37, pg 288-300

Soper, J. D. 1964 The mammals of Alberta. Hamly press ltd. Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. Pg 402(As cited by Wishart 1980)

Sustainable Resource Development. http://www.srd.gov.ab.ca/fw/hunting/mule.html (http://www.srd.gov.ab.ca/fw/hunting/mule.html) Accessed Nov 24 2006.




Thanks for reading.

Kirby

[3kills]

Hi 3Kills, your buck is a very distinctive mule, easy to pick out joints etc. but did you make pepporoni or hamburger?:lol:

i know he is a distinctive mulie...but he looks identical like a mirrored image of my uncles whitey....and i havent made pepperoni or hamburger..lol cut it all and took the trim and froze waiting for another one to decide what i m going to do with it...and still tryin to find a shop to take it to if i do pepperoni....

[todbartell]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/421212_10150633312647992_512917991_9327137_1639179 189_n.jpg

WT or MD???

[6616]

I would say the tail of this deer indicates some possibility of it being a hybrid. The metatarsal glands although not really clear in the photo also look similar to mulie glands. According to Val Geist's theory WTD/MD hybrids are usually sired by WTD bucks and have mule deer mothers, so a key question is, was this fawn running with WTD or mule deer. If it was with a herd of mulies it adds to the possibility it's a hybrid but if it's with a group of WTD it is more likely not.

[Ltbullken]

If you can't ID it, don't shoot it. But, if both deer are in season and point configuration is legal, shoot it. Cancel the most correct tag and then consult with a CO, as the CO may say one or the other and reinstate the proper tag as long as you have both. Or, the CO may confiscate the animal, your gun and your truck, fine you, call you a poacher and put your picture on the BCWF web page... your call... :-P

[todbartell]

According to Val Geist's theory WTD/MD hybrids are usually sired by WTD bucks and have mule deer mothers, so a key question is, was this fawn running with WTD or mule deer. If it was with a herd of mulies it adds to the possibility it's a hybrid but if it's with a group of WTD it is more likely not.

this one was with WTD or at least there was WTD on cam a half hour later. I'll post more pics if I get some next time I check the cam. The fawn looks MD except for the tail, which doesn't look WT either

[Bow Walker]

Everybody's got nothing better to do than to resurrect a six year old thread?

[Fisher-Dude]

PGK is gonna be following Toddler around like a lost puppy.

[todbartell]

Everybody's got nothing better to do than to resurrect a six year old thread?

I figured it was better to add my question to this thread than start my own. Lots of good hybrid info here, questions that have already been answered. Is there an intraweb law that states yiou cant reply to a thread unless its a week old?

[REMINGTON JIM]

Everybody's got nothing better to do than to resurrect a six year old thread?

Whos MAKING you read it ? Maybe its interesting to some people !

[Fisher-Dude]

I want Bow Sqwalker to post that same line on Jelly's threads.

[Bow Walker]

Wow. The nanny's are all out tonight!!

[REMINGTON JIM]

wow. The nanny's are all out tonight!!

ha! Lmao ! Rj

[todbartell]

well I bumped the topic up so if you got a problem with it, feel free to report a post to a moderator if you feel I've broken some sort of HBC rule. ;)

[Bow Walker]

Now Toddy - you know that both you and I are mods - so take a pill and relax. It's OK to re-open a topic if it of interest to you...........

[todbartell]

it was never closed to begin with

[Ambush]

I have seen one of the myterious Hybrids.
It was near the Rudy Johnson Bridge, just northwest of Williams Lake. A group of muley does crossed the road in front of me and I stopped to glass them and check for bucks, in the trees. Just looked like a regular bunch of several does, untill one of the does that had lagged behind, flagged a big white tail and ran to catch up. Other than the tail it looked like a mule deer. It may have had a bit more of a whitetail gait, as well.
I've never seen a whitetail in that specific area, but have seen them not that many kms away.

Maybe when a wandering whitetail buck finds himself in hitherto un-whitey territory, he just makes the best of it. He may find the mule does ugly, but hey, "any port in a storm" you know.
It likely doesn't happen very often where there is a good supply of both species to supply the bucks urges.

[todbartell]

. If it was with a herd of mulies it adds to the possibility it's a hybrid but if it's with a group of WTD it is more likely not.

looks like it's hanging with a WT doe

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/375663_10150647730132992_512917991_9380121_1839326 219_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/398982_10150647730407992_512917991_9380122_1536624 368_n.jpg


hybrid false alarm! :mrgreen:

[kootenayelkslayer]

hybrid false alarm! :mrgreen:

Somewhere, PGK just shed a tear.