Is it good or bad to return unguided after a guided trip

[BCBear]

If a guy pays a guide outfitter to help him get his trophy animal then what's the etiquette so to speak for the hunter to return the following year unguided to the same area? I'm wondering if it is common practise or kind of frowned upon. I can see both points of view on this one, but side with my resident rights, even though I paid a guide to show me where to go before.

[srupp]

hmmm I couldnt do that...

steven

[Trapper D]

if your a resident hunter you have every right to hunt as per regulations say

[CanuckShooter]

If a guy pays a guide outfitter to help him get his trophy animal then what's the etiquette so to speak for the hunter to return the following year unguided to the same area? I'm wondering if it is common practise or kind of frowned upon. I can see both points of view on this one, but side with my resident rights, even though I paid a guide to show me where to go before.


It's a free country.......did you get a discount to keep quiet about where he took you??.......

[Trapper D]

if your a resident hunter you have every right to hunt as per regulations say
as well you paid cold hard cash for the right to know where they are

[urbanhermit]

if you had a good guided hunt maybe its time to see some new country, go in the general area so you know what to look for. might be more fun not to hunt in your old boot tracks..
take the learnings from the guide and apply them somewhere else, might be really rewarding..

[budismyhorse]

its a free world....but, how you would proceed would depend on your character.....being in the same general area would be one thing......being in competition with the same crew that guided you would be quite another....

[BCrams]

......being in competition with the same crew that guided you would be quite another....



take the learnings from the guide and apply them somewhere else, might be really rewarding..

What he said.

[ROEBUCK]

would not tell the guide what your planning.
as all you will be chasing is a wild goose.

[srupp]

hmmm I paid to go in after one animal..not learn the lay of the land to compete with that outfitter guide in perpetuaty..it was a one time in that area and to use those lessons.. wherever...

Sometimes why guide outfitters are reluctant to guide residents???

anyhow thats my personal feelings..

steven

[Island Redneck]

If a guy pays a guide outfitter to help him get his trophy animal then what's the etiquette so to speak for the hunter to return the following year unguided to the same area? I'm wondering if it is common practise or kind of frowned upon. I can see both points of view on this one, but side with my resident rights, even though I paid a guide to show me where to go before.

As you said, you paid the GO. to help you get a trophy animal, you didnt pay him to show you where to go. Legally you have every right to go back in there, morally?????

[Hook or Bullet]

If you had to ask you already know the answer. Guides are hunters too, if you took someone to your honey hole and then the next time you went there its was occupied by your "buddy" how would you feel? Take what you learned and move on.

[Hunt'n Guide]

If you had to ask you already know the answer. Guides are hunters too, if you took someone to your honey hole and then the next time you went there its was occupied by your "buddy" how would you feel? Take what you learned and move on.

Pretty much perfectly summed up! If I take someone I know to a honey hole I'd be pissed to find him and his buddies there the next season. It doesn't make it any more acceptable if you paid to be guided. On a guided hunt you pay for one hunt and whatever animals not to abuse the knowledge of the guide/outfitter for year to come.

[Moose Guide]

If you had to ask you already know the answer. Guides are hunters too, if you took someone to your honey hole and then the next time you went there its was occupied by your "buddy" how would you feel? Take what you learned and move on.

I agree with this for the most part, but you could talk to the outfitter and see if it was possible to do without stepping on his toes. Some friends of mine did this and took a nice stone ram where one of them had guided for a few years, all without a fight.

[2SHALLOW]

I dont think its a good thing, your legally allowed no doubt but good chance you will be in competition for the same animal the whole time your up there. Find a good area to call your own you will feel much better about it. It will probably be more rewarding when you do hammer that trophy!! But thats just my opinion!!

[Big Lew]

I totally agree with "Hook or Bullet" and Huntn'guide". Legally we can't keep others away from our honey holes, but if we take friends into them with the agreement that they only re-visit when invited, it is very annoying to see them in there the next year with a bunch of their friends.(it's happened to me) That's probably the main reason hunting buddies are lost, and many hunters are reluctant to reveal any location at all.

[Matty_ola]

I know I'd be petty pissed off if I paid for a guided hunt to a certain spot only to find you and your buddies in a spot that we spent all day getting to because the guide assured me it was secluded and almost guaranteed a nice animal.

C'mon, We all know the answer to this. These guys are trying to make a living and pay their bills. They are the ones who put in the time to do the scouting and the research on that certain area so they know there is a certain amount number of game to ensure their customers don't go home empty handed.

You're paying for a guided hunt not a guided scouting trip.

Just my opinion though.

[BCBear]

If you had to ask you already know the answer. Guides are hunters too, if you took someone to your honey hole and then the next time you went there its was occupied by your "buddy" how would you feel? Take what you learned and move on.

Having never been on a guided hunt I have no reference point on this one, but I put the question forward precisely because I did not know the answer to this scenario. Internet morallity aside I can't help but think that many hunters may feel that they paid for both the location information and the shot opportunity. I don't realy envision staking out a particular honey hole, but a general area.
After reading the good responses here there seems to be agreeement that there is a lot to learn from that guide that can be applied to hunting in general and help the hunter be more successful wherever he goes. It would be kind of awkward if your good relationship one year was tainted if you met up in the same general area the next year.

[pappy]

I don't personally own where I like to hunt as its public land. So I don't care if a guide is there or not when I'm hunting. If I know its another resident hunter(s) then I will be respectful and find a different area, or work together with them to not interfear with each other. As far as guides go I don't care for them so I will hunt where I want because they don't own it either (if its public). I am not a big fan of non-resident hunters with guides they are greedy.

[6616]

If a guy pays a guide outfitter to help him get his trophy animal then what's the etiquette so to speak for the hunter to return the following year unguided to the same area? I'm wondering if it is common practise or kind of frowned upon. I can see both points of view on this one, but side with my resident rights, even though I paid a guide to show me where to go before.

You are within your rights, but as you say, "creating a very awkward situation". I wouldn't do it personally. That outfitter would certainly think twice before taking out resident clients again, and we couldn't really blame him. At least, wait three or four years before going back on your own. Just a way too much chance for hard feelings to develop.

A good friend of mine owns a territory in the EK. Another friend of mine guided for him for a season, then after learning the area and all the outfitters secrets, he went into the territory with a couple buddies to hunt for himself the following year. They haven't spoke to each other since and even got in a fist-fight at a sportsman's banquet a couple years later. Not worth it, there's lots of places to go hunting.

[870]

what about going out with a fishing guide, to show you the techniques, then going out after that to the spots he showed you and using what the taught you to catch fish. is that frowned upon?

[BromBones]

That's something that's pretty frowned upon. Even though hunters are a fairly civilized bunch, deep down we're still just as territorial as an old boar grizzly in 'his' home range. ;)

[Ozone]

From what I have seen of some guides, you would never get back to were you went before as they have locked gates, put up active logging signs and made other atempts to tell you you are in there private territory. These are just my private observations and I am sure not all guides work like this though.

[Gilmore]

I probably couldn't do that but thats me. I would not however look down my noise at a resident that paid an outfitter $32,000 to hunt stone rams and then used that info to go back in the same area the next year. Its our land, do as you wish as long as its legal. You may want to invest in some kevlar camo though.:)

[Hunt'n Guide]

what about going out with a fishing guide, to show you the techniques, then going out after that to the spots he showed you and using what the taught you to catch fish. is that frowned upon?

From what I hear from fishing guides I know this is also considered uncool.

[betteroffishing]

cant blame the guides for frowning upon this , but cant summon the courage to look down on someone who chose to take such an action. public land is public land and if the guides dont want to take residents on paid hunts , they dont have to. important to note that unlike the scenario where you take a buddy along to your secret honey hole then find him in there the next season with all his buddies , the guide has been paid , often handsomely, for that knowledge. not being one who will likely ever be in a position to pay a guide , your all as safe from me as i am from you , but kinda grey imho.

[M.Dean]

The way I see it, any Man that would book a hunt with a guide, have that guide bend over backwards for him, show him the area, etc, then Go Out of his way to go back in the following year is a real work of Art! And yes, I know it's Public land, but why would a person go out of there way to do this when there's so much Public land to hunt???

[Call of the Wild]

Like others said, as a BC resident it’s legal to do but not very ethical. Here’s how I see the scenario.

Paying for a hunt for example, sheep or goat (in BC or other province/state), is a great way to gain knowledge on how to hunt that animal and its behaviour. Anyone who gets a chance to hang out with successful experience guides or hunters of any game either while hunting, at a camp, events or at a friend’s party etc, will become a better hunter and asking the right questions the right way will build a confidence bond between both parties and then more detailed info should be told. After that it’s up to you to apply the various theories of everyone on real hunting situation. In the end it’s more rewarding to work a bit and learn than buying “where to go hunting for x animal”.

Like many serious and experience sheep hunters on this site mentioned, a rookie sheep hunters can be told where to go but if they don’t know the how and what to look for to find sheep it doesn’t guarantee he’ll find a sheep and even more harvest one.

I speak of myself for whitetail deer I had the opportunity to spend great amount of time with some very experience and successful trophy deer guides/hunters, I learned a lot from them and today I consider myself a good trophy whitetail hunter first due to MY EXPERIENCE combined with the experience of others and being capable of applying whitetail deer biology, needs, reproduction behaviour etc to my hunting techniques.

I believe a successful hunting trip shouldn’t be defined if game is harvested. First it’s a hobby that I take very seriously, a passion, but I want to have FUN, bring wild meat home, spend good times with friends and I choose to be a selective/trophy hunter on some species for personal reasons.

I wish you well

[Caribou_lou]

If a guy pays a guide outfitter to help him get his trophy animal then what's the etiquette so to speak for the hunter to return the following year unguided to the same area? I'm wondering if it is common practise or kind of frowned upon. I can see both points of view on this one, but side with my resident rights, even though I paid a guide to show me where to go before.

I would not feel bad about it... Chances are he took you somewhere he would not feel bad about you going back to one day. Most likely he took you to an area he already see's resident hunters.

He would not take you to his best spots!! Those are for his out of BC Clients. People he know can't come back and hunt legally without him!

Good question though, but you will see some very opposite opinions on this one!

[proguide66]

Damn , not sure how I would react if I sweat my ass off for a guy , delivered him his $$ worth of an experience + , then the next year climbed to a spot to find the same guy and his buddy sitting there glassing...hmm...it would probably be real hard to crack a big smile anyway.

What if a buddy took you to a 'secret awesome spot' ,would you take a buddy er two to 'his spot' the next year? or day?


I'm a resident hunter and feel there is plenty of room and game out there for everyone and respect all. BUT , I will be honest and say that I DO REFUSE to guide residents in my camp. Why? because VERY fortunately there is no residents in my 'zone' and feel its a darned special place , hard to find a place to have to yourself these days and would like to keep it 'special' as long as possible.:-|

[lovemywinchester]

I think if you go back to the same area after being guided there you should consider if you will be able to enjoy yourself worrying the whole time about running into the guide. You don`t need the stress wondering if the guy is over the next ridge every day you are there, even if you are on public land. The hunt may be spoiled if you feel any guilt, whether its deserved or not. We can feel enough guilt for missing time from family, work or buddies when hunting so go somewhere new and enjoy yourself.
This makes me wonder if I should feel guilty hunting Blacktails over 3000` after reading all Proguides threads?

[Call of the Wild]

I'm a resident hunter and feel there is plenty of room and game out there for everyone and respect all.

Very well said and true!!!

[proguide66]

[quote=lovemywinchester;860695]I think if you go back to the same area after being guided there you should consider if you will be able to enjoy yourself worrying the whole time about running into the guide. You don`t need the stress wondering if the guy is over the next ridge every day you are there, even if you are on public land. The hunt may be spoiled if you feel any guilt, whether its deserved or not. We can feel enough guilt for missing time from family, work or buddies when hunting so go somewhere new and enjoy yourself.
This makes me wonder if I should feel guilty hunting Blacktails over 3000` after reading all Proguides threads?

:lol: I help lots of guys , anything I put on here is to help! BUT , I get REAL nasty when my truck gets chased!:twisted:..nothing worse than feeling 'prey'd upon':evil:

[6616]

Damn , not sure how I would react if I sweat my ass off for a guy , delivered him his $$ worth of an experience + , then the next year climbed to a spot to find the same guy and his buddy sitting there glassing...hmm...it would probably be real hard to crack a big smile anyway.

What if a buddy took you to a 'secret awesome spot' ,would you take a buddy er two to 'his spot' the next year? or day?


I'm a resident hunter and feel there is plenty of room and game out there for everyone and respect all. BUT , I will be honest and say that I DO REFUSE to guide residents in my camp. Why? because VERY fortunately there is no residents in my 'zone' and feel its a darned special place , hard to find a place to have to yourself these days and would like to keep it 'special' as long as possible.:-|


I would probably do the same as you. It's a little different up north in very remote areas where clients are flown into a base camp and then go by horse to an even remoter hunting camp. These areas are very difficult for a DIY hunter to access, but if you ask any guide in the southern more accessible areas like the EK if they take resident clients the usual answer is no, and they're pretty up-front about the obvious reason why. Can't say that I blame them...!

[elkdom]

if you wanna spend $15,000 for a ten day Elk hunt ?,,, or $30,000 for a ten day Sheep Hunt, go ahead,fill yor boots,, you will pay the SAME as a non-resident for your hunt,,

ps: book early! lol :tongue:

[lovemywinchester]

[quote=lovemywinchester;860695]I think if you go back to the same area after being guided there you should consider if you will be able to enjoy yourself worrying the whole time about running into the guide. You don`t need the stress wondering if the guy is over the next ridge every day you are there, even if you are on public land. The hunt may be spoiled if you feel any guilt, whether its deserved or not. We can feel enough guilt for missing time from family, work or buddies when hunting so go somewhere new and enjoy yourself.
This makes me wonder if I should feel guilty hunting Blacktails over 3000` after reading all Proguides threads?

:lol: I help lots of guys , anything I put on here is to help! BUT , I get REAL nasty when my truck gets chased!:twisted:..nothing worse than feeling 'prey'd upon':evil:

Duly noted. What are you driving again? :mrgreen:

[proguide66]

[quote=proguide66;860700]

Duly noted. What are you driving again? :mrgreen:

A TAXI :lol:

[308Lover]

I don't need a guide to show me how to find game, but if he/she takes me (on horseback or by plane) to a remote awesome spot, chances are I'd never go back there. If it's easily accessible, chances are you'll meet other hunters anyway.
A guiding territory nowadays is almost always difficult to access. I wouldn't try to go back and ruin good memories from a guided hunt taken there previously. It might be legal, but it wouldn't feel right to me.

[J_T]

its a free world....but, how you would proceed would depend on your character.....being in the same general area would be one thing......being in competition with the same crew that guided you would be quite another....It's a good post and I appreciate how most people here have approached the discussion.

I think I would take the position much stated by Budimyhorse.

As I thought about it and read posts from others, I see an interesting twist to this if we consider you paid a guide, hunted an area he works/has rights to (and probably some infrastructure), but it is crown land and you do have the choice to go back there. The point is, you paid him.

How do we see this if you have a 'friend' and he takes you into an area he's known for a long time, shows you a great hunt, and the next year your out there with another buddy hunting the same ground? The scenario with the guide was for money. The same scenario with a buddy is under the premise of friendship.

Which is more acceptable? Going back to a buddy's spot, or a guide territory?

[.330 Dakota]

Seems a little cheesey to me to use a guide as a game locator, then hunt the same spot without him/her.
Just my opinion but if I was the outfitter I wouldnt appreciate it.

[Gateholio]

FOr curiosities sake, what would the statute of limitations on this?

Would it be acceptable to return to the same spot in 5 years? 10? If the outfitter sold the territory to someone else? If your guides weren't working there anymore?

[luckynuts]

if you had a good guided hunt maybe its time to see some new country, go in the general area so you know what to look for. might be more fun not to hunt in your old boot tracks..
take the learnings from the guide and apply them somewhere else, might be really rewarding..

Well said! Could not agree more. Find a new area, work hard harvest an animal come back with a well earned trophy or with the satisfaction and knowledge that next year could be your year. Nothing better than seeing new country especially when it's in the mountains.:wink:

W.

[lorneparker1]

Maybe i'll get blasted for this?

But my opinion is who the frick is too say why you are paying for the GO? and what you should do with the info? I mean if you are paying 5 grand, do whatever you want with what you get out of that hunt. Also about GO's not taking residents, im sure there are some but i would think that if you have money it wouldnt be the greatest business descision to turn away any case. And lastly comapring taking your buddy to spot then finding him there as a comparsion to the topic at hand is not apples and apples. Your buddy didnt pay you a ton of cash to go there.

Lorne

cant blame the guides for frowning upon this , but cant summon the courage to look down on someone who chose to take such an action

Coudnt have said it better my self

[CanuckShooter]

Ask him if he supports LEH for all tags in BC...if so broadcast his spot to everybody......

[beeugle]

Maybe i'll get blasted for this?

But my opinion is who the frick is too say why you are paying for the GO? and what you should do with the info? I mean if you are paying 5 grand, do whatever you want with what you get out of that hunt. Also about GO's not taking residents, im sure there are some but i would think that if you have money it wouldnt be the greatest business descision to turn away any case. And lastly comapring taking your buddy to spot then finding him thier as a comparsion to the tpic at hand is not apples and apples. Your buddy didnt pay you a ton of cash to go their.

Lorne


Coudnt have said it better my self
I'm with you on this one, they run a business, that's part of the deal, they got paid for their services. honeyholes between buddies isn't the same at all. If you run business on Crown land(belonging to us all) then its reasonable to assume that it is the service thats being paid for , but not the right to hunt there, thats a right we all have and should make sure we keep!

[TyTy]

I think it would be best to just ask the GO (kinda a long shot?). If he agrees it cool, go for it. you're working together. if not, i wouldn't bother his working area.

I've never been on a guided hunt, but i think if i were to ever go for one, i would choose an area which is off limits to me logistically. ei northern saskatchewan or such, isn't that kinda the whole reason for being guided?

[264mag]

A good outfitter spends a lot time in his territory scouting, cutting trails, cutting firewood and preparing for his hunters.

His honey holes are usually very hard to get to unless you use his own trails, bridges, creek crossings etc.

I hunt with an outfitter who trusts that I won't be back unguided with my buddies and he treats me like hunting buddy.

I would not feel right walking his trails.

[Hunt'n Guide]

I probably couldn't do that but thats me. I would not however look down my noise at a resident that paid an outfitter $32,000 to hunt stone rams and then used that info to go back in the same area the next year. Its our land, do as you wish as long as its legal. You may want to invest in some kevlar camo though.:)

FYI there is no reason why a resident should have to pay top dollar for a stone sheep hunt. You are hunting on a resident tag not taking up the outfitter's quota so the hunt should be discounted accordingly.
However, you may find it hard to find an outfitter that will take you since he has to worry about you returning next year with 5000 of you closest hunting buddies from HBC.:wink:

[ufishifish2]

I wouldn't do it. There is so much country out there for all of us to hunt these animals, why piss on the one guy that showed you his area. Instead, hunt in a different guides area that you don't know.
I would never go on a guided hunt, but if I did I am sure I would get to like the guide and respect him. I wouldn't hunt the area he showed me. If he's an a-hole that is a completely different story and all bets are off!!!

[tim3500]

I wouldnt do it ! But I wouldnt use a guide in a area that I would frequently hunt anyways and if I paid a guide it would be for me not my buddys

[Gilmore]

Which is more acceptable? Going back to a buddy's spot, or a guide territory?

Did your buddy pay you $32,000 plus tip?? Nope he didn't. You told him or showed him because you thought you could trust him and he was exactly that, your buddy. Won't make that mistake again.

You owe an outfitter nothing if you've already paid him, simple as that, and thats if you can find one who'll take your money! When you buy a hunt at a wildlife charity auction that is guided on crown land in your home province would you really believe that outfitter is taking you into his honey hole?:lol: If you do I've got some ocean front property here in Pemberton for you.

This is our province where mostly out of country outfitters are offering up our animals to mostly out of country clients at prices most of us can't afford. And I don't have a problem with that but if you are lucky enough to gather some info from a trip you went on and paid for, thats info that was bought and paid dearly for.

[.300WSMImpact!]

I find no problem in going back, you paid good money for knowledge use it any way you like,

[yamadirt 426]

I say your good to go back.

[porcupine]

I've gone on three guided hunts with outiftters and would not think of going back there by myself. It's no different than if your friend took you to one of their secret fishing spots. It's their spot and to use it as your own is not ethical in my opinion. In fact, I think of the GO's as my friends. If I showed you one of my "secret" fishing or hunting spots, that would not give you license to go there. Just my opinion.

[winchester284]

You are paying the guide for his knowledge. The hunting area is public property.

The same thing happens with fishing guides.

[Gilmore]

For curiosities sake, what would the statute of limitations on this?

Would it be acceptable to return to the same spot in 5 years? 10? If the outfitter sold the territory to someone else? If your guides weren't working there anymore?

Or what if you meet some drunk disgruntled guide in a bar who has just been fired by his outfitter for being caught in a comprimising position with the outfitters favorite horse. You buy the guy a couple more drinks and than the guy spills the beans on the greatest sheep hill in the province? Are you supposed to wake up in the morning and forget all you heard? Hell you got that info for the price of a couple beers and letting the guide sleep in your barn!

[Gateholio]

Or what if you meet some drunk disgruntled guide in a bar who has just been fired by his outfitter for being caught in a comprimising position with the outfitters favorite horse. You buy the guy a couple more drinks and than the guy spills the beans on the greatest sheep hill in the province? Are you supposed to wake up in the morning and forget all you heard? Hell you got that info for the price of a couple beers and letting the guide sleep in your barn!

I've actually heard many times that the best hunting info always comes from disgruntled guides!:-D

[bandit]

Did your buddy pay you $32,000 plus tip??

Ironically, if there was more private land in BC I think most guided hunts would be way less expensive. Landowners would be motivated to (artificially) get as many animals in their area as possible. Look at the game ranches in Africa, you can get anything up to and including a rhino for half the price of a sheep in BC.

Any way you look at it 32k is an insane amount of money. Paying that much buys you the right to do pretty much whatever you want IMO!

Telling your buddies about a guides honey holes, thats a different story.

[Will]

I'd have no qualms about returning there as a nonguided Resident Hunter, in fact some might even say I'd enjoy doing so.:neutral:

But it would be a frosty day in hades when I'd hire an Outfitter to pursue game in my Own Province so I'm probably not the one to comment on the matter at hand :-D

[budismyhorse]

An interesting part to this question is what this scenario does to guide outfitters in this province. Many residents are fearfull of booking hunts as the "long scenic tour" is not something they want to pay for.

But as long as GO's are fearfull of residents coming back to hunt their patches, residents on the other hand are fearfull of a waste of money hunt from an outfitter.

And round and round they go, no one wins.

I can tell you my old man was on a cancelation hunt list with a few stone sheep outfitters for a few years, but under no circumstances were they going to allow me to tag along as an observer. Fair enough, its their business.

[Kody94]

Frankly, I don't really see an ethical dilemma with returning to hunt an area if you have previously paid the full retail rate to be guided there. There are lots of scenarios where it might be unethical (if your GO is your buddy, if you got a discounted rate as a resident, etc, etc), but if you paid full price, you are there to enjoy the experience, learn as much as you can, etc.

I don't think I'd do it....I'd apply my new knowlege somewhere else and test my skills, rather than follow the proven recipe in the exact same location. But the more I think of it, the less issue I would have with others doing it. It would not be good for resident/GO relations, but that doesn't make it unethical or even wrong.

Now, when a guide returns and hunts as a resident within the GO's territory, that's a different story to my way of thinking. That's biting the hand that fed you. You were paid while learning the area and the way to hunt it, and IMHO its bad form to return to the area and compete with your ex-employer, using the knowlege and experience you gained when on his payroll. There isn't anything legally wrong with it of course, but unless there are extenuating circumstances (new owner maybe, or the ex-employer never paid you, or ?), to me its pretty low.

I struggle just hunting some of the areas I love, even though I've never paid for a hunt here, or been paid by a GO to hunt here.....but I consider a few of them friends, and feel guilty when I hunt in their territories (even though I know I shouldn't feel any guilt whatsoever).

[Surrey Boy]

For the price of a guided hunt, why don't you save use that money to cover your expenses while you scout out the area for two months, or even a year, as the amount may be? You can do alot of scouting yourself for what you pay a guide.

[hunter1947]

I would not return to this guid area to hunt but I would return to hunt just outside his guiding area you can get maps of there boarder line guid area.

There guides are trying to make a living as we do don't interfear with the outfitter keep to a remote area boardering his area..

If you hunt the serounding areas of his guid area there would be less hard fellings if you where to have hunted his guiding area I am sure there are the game animals boarering his area this is what I would do if it where me..

[CanuckShooter]

If I found out the guide was supporting the lobby to turn all resident hunting LEH...I'd go out of my way to let everybody know his best hunting spots......

[Big Lew]

I might be missing something here, but most of us probably would hire an expensive Guide in order to get into areas we couldn't access without a great deal of difficulty or equipment we don't have, unless we wanted the experience of someone catering a holiday, so in reality, how many of us would likely head back on our own anyway.
I also agree with "Gilmore" about his comment about a significant number of Guides, Outfitters, and Packers being from "out of province". I am not comfortable about these individuals controlling so much prime area, and at the same time, lobbying for total resident LEH.

[Elk-Aholic]

If I found out the guide was supporting the lobby to turn all resident hunting LEH...I'd go out of my way to let everybody know his best hunting spots......

And sadly, another good post/thread is trying to get turned into another BCWF vs Guide/Outfitter fight!

Sticking to the original post, up to this point great discussion guys. And like many people said it all boils down to your morals as it's a free country! If you're paying $5000 for a guided hunt to learn the area to come back and hunt it in the following years, tell the outfitter before the hunt (if you're an honest person) so he knows going in. Then that takes all the back-stabbing out of the equation. So if/when he sees you hunting in his area(public land) in years to come there is no hard feelings as you made it clear what your intentions were. But at the end of the day it comes down to morals, morals, morals!

[uraarchr]

What about all those magazine articles,Fishing shows &Hunting vids,and books that suggest to hire a guide at first to learn the technique and area and then to do it yourself? I've found a few spots through friends,aquaintances and co-workers and I've even been given tips from a few guys that have been guided.As far as I'm concerned it's a buisness transaction and pay for a sevice and can't even be compared to betraying a good friends trusted honeyhole.Of course if I had promised something thats a different story.

[guest]

Personally, and I never can, but if I did pay 20,000 bucks to go in with a guide for a Ram, if I could do it on my own for a fraction after that I would in a heart beat! No questions asked, living great distances, family, lack of time and money, how often would a guy be able to return in a lifetime with no horses of his own, no jet boat, no plane etc.
If I could .... I would, no different then a person hiring me for Salmon, Crab, Prawns, Sturgeon, people do it and there is NOTHING you I or they can do about it.
Frankly if I or you put out the money to access these items, you and ME are entitled to it!
Guides don not out right own the land they hunt or fish

CT

[.300WSMImpact!]

And sadly, another good post/thread is trying to get turned into another BCWF vs Guide/Outfitter fight!

Sticking to the original post, up to this point great discussion guys. And like many people said it all boils down to your morals as it's a free country! If you're paying $5000 for a guided hunt to learn the area to come back and hunt it in the following years, tell the outfitter before the hunt (if you're an honest person) so he knows going in. Then that takes all the back-stabbing out of the equation. So if/when he sees you hunting in his area(public land) in years to come there is no hard feelings as you made it clear what your intentions were. But at the end of the day it comes down to morals, morals, morals!

I don't think morals has anything to do with it, for profit hunting should be second to sustenance hunting, or even third to resident hunting. Plus as we know most residents are not pros, so the success rate is much lower than that of a for profit or "pro" hunter, the guides should not have any issues with this in my mind.

[wiggy]

Why would you want to; too many great places to go and the new adventure is in the new area your gonna go explore. As stated at least tell the GO your intentions. Its all a matter or integrity. Also if i was gonna drop that kinda cash on a hunt id be heading to the Yukon or Alaska shite a dall sheep hunt in Alaska is under 15k. A safari in Africa is even less

[Kody94]

For the price of a guided hunt, why don't you save use that money to cover your expenses while you scout out the area for two months, or even a year, as the amount may be? You can do alot of scouting yourself for what you pay a guide.

Pretty tough when you only get 4 wks vacation a year, and have family obligations to balance with your hunting trips.

[safarichris]

Happened to me twice. I hired dogs to get some cougar out of my area. Obviously the best buck country i had. The next week the dog man was in there guiding friends himself for deer. A blizzard came and they were all lost for three days. The RCMP called on me to accompany them into the Mtns to find them. I took them right to their makeshift camp. When peoples lives are at stake,you will even do that. Despite what you would really like to say. Only once never again. Just don't get lost,the Outfitter might not be as forgiving as i was.

[.300WSMImpact!]

Happened to me twice. I hired dogs to get some cougar out of my area. Obviously the best buck country i had. The next week the dog man was in there guiding friends himself for deer. A blizzard came and they were all lost for three days. The RCMP called on me to accompany them into the Mtns to find them. I took them right to their makeshift camp. When peoples lives are at stake,you will even do that. Despite what you would really like to say. Only once never again. Just don't get lost,the Outfitter might not as forgiving as i was.

wow you are a upstanding person, good on you

[gitnadoix]

It all comes down to how much ownership you recognize. If I was to some how find myself paying for a guide....(never happen) I would not then abandon that valley of BC in recognition of his assumed owner ship....I would not sit under the same tree or use the camp site not out of recognition, but more outa I dont wanna see anyone else when I am in there either.

[Kyle84]

The regs determine if its frowned upon or not. Legal is legal. Even if a guide shows you an area it doesnt matter. Its your province as much as it is anyone elses who lives here. I wouldn't even think twice about it BCBear. Check the regs.

[dino]

You dont have to put in much effort to find out where a guide is taking his clients.one example is freedom of info act. Certain government employees if asked will have to provide you the info you request. That way the outfitter cant be upset because he never guided you before.:-? I hope I didnt upset any of you guys out there but its true.

[tangozulu]

How about outfitters taking my honey hole?
Lets not forget plenty of outfitters are new to an area. They change all the time. I had a certain honey hole for grizzly that a Dease lake pilot showed a certain new female outfitter out of Telegraph Creek. We had been in there for years before she bought the outfitt. Of course she promtly told the pilot he was no longer allowed to take any residents into "her'' area, after takin a couple nice bears.
I would never pay an outfitter for a hunt but now have no problem being in "their" area.

[safarichris]

You dont have to put in much effort to find out where a guide is taking his clients.one example is freedom of info act. Certain government employees if asked will have to provide you the info you request. That way the outfitter cant be upset because he never guided you before.:-? I hope I didnt upset any of you guys out there but its true.

Good point Dino.
If you think a person in his right mind is going to supply the correct and exact location of kill to the Government, Ministry of the Environment or whatever branch requests it. Ha ha, you would certainly be barking up the wrong tree. There have been to many times when a responsible citizen has submitted such information with exact location of kill for management porposes, only to find two Biologists hunting the exact location the very next year at the very exact same time. Forget it Dino. Once bitten twice shy.

[safarichris]

How about outfitters taking my honey hole?
Lets not forget plenty of outfitters are new to an area. They change all the time. I had a certain honey hole for grizzly that a Dease lake pilot showed a certain new female outfitter out of Telegraph Creek. We had been in there for years before she bought the outfitt. Of course she promtly told the pilot he was no longer allowed to take any residents into "her'' area, after takin a couple nice bears.
I would never pay an outfitter for a hunt but now have no problem being in "their" area.

I met here once at the 70 mile pub and witnessed her get into a fight with some guy who was pickin on her man. She decked the guy cold, threw her man(my good buddy) over her shoulder and took him home to lick his wounds.Telegraph Creek is a good place for her.

[bayou]

Good point Dino.
If you think a person in his right mind is going to supply the correct and exact location of kill to the Government, Ministry of the Environment or whatever branch requests it. Ha ha, you would certainly be barking up the wrong tree. There have been to many times when a responsible citizen has submitted such information with exact location of kill for management porposes, only to find two Biologists hunting the exact location the very next year at the very exact same time. Forget it Dino. Once bitten twice shy.
So are you basically saying all the science that is used from harvest data ,inspections etc etc, that in turn is used to make allocations, seasons etc should be throwing out the window for it is all wrong/lies anyway.
Are you saying its common practice for the outfitters to lie about information to the ministry/goverment etc or all people/hunters in general.

[bridger]

when reporting the sucess of your hunt don't get confused with reporting the hunting questionairre repsonse to complusory reporting. the hunter questionairre asks only for a water shed. compulsory reporting asks for a specific location. I agree with safari chris on the point about how accurate the compulsory reporting sites are. in acutual fact the bios only need the mu for most ci species. on the issue of whether is is ok to return to a guide's area after booking a hunt with him I think it is a moot point. how many people would actually spend the dough to find out where an outfitter hunts; when there are lots of other ways to find out with out spending a lot of coin. From personal experience knowing where an outfitter hunts and getting in there on your own are too different things. If i booked a hunt with an outfitter it wouldn't be to find out where he hunts and I doubt if many other residents would either.
For sure I wouldn't go back on my own unless there were some very extenuating circumstances.

[boxhitch]

......There have been to many times when a responsible citizen has submitted such information with exact location of kill for management porposes, only to find two Biologists hunting the exact location the very next year at the very exact same time. Forget it Dino. Once bitten twice shy.Seriously ?? Bios were really that desperate to go to a spot based on a single report, an area that has less animals than before the kill ? Chasing ghosts ?
If that is the case, picture the number of times they are out chasing false leads from false reports.
I tend to give them a little more credit than that.

[islander338]

I feel there is a difference between hunting and fishing. Fisherman return to places they have been guided all the time. wether on there own or even with a cheaper resort. Its annoying and a little slimey but i have to put a smile on my face and deal with it all the time.

[safarichris]

So are you basically saying all the science that is used from harvest data ,inspections etc etc, that in turn is used to make allocations, seasons etc should be throwing out the window for it is all wrong/lies anyway.
Are you saying its common practice for the outfitters to lie about information to the ministry/goverment etc or all people/hunters in general.

I am not asking anyone to lie about their location of kill when trying to assist in a programe. I personally would keep things more "general'' rather than the ''spacific X''. What Outfitters do is their business not mine.

[safarichris]

Seriously ?? Bios were really that desperate to go to a spot based on a single report, an area that has less animals than before the kill ? Chasing ghosts ?
If that is the case, picture the number of times they are out chasing false leads from false reports.
I tend to give them a little more credit than that.

You might be correct in giving the ''current day Bio'' more credit. The experiences I had with them years ago when bringing in a very heavy Bighorn, was guaranteed to see then on the X mark i had made the previous year, when doing my duty as a responsible hunter. A Bio in opinion when open to such sensitive information, should never be allowed to hunt in the same Region he works out of. That's my opinion.

[budismyhorse]

I thought it was "Game Wardens" in your book Chris?

[safarichris]

I thought it was "Game Wardens" in your book Chris?

You are correct. The requested material submitted honestly was to a Game warden now called Conservation Officers in their department. In the next door ten feet away, were the Bios. Maybe now the Bios handle the front desk. In my submissions, it was the Wardens that handled it. Six of one, half dozen of the other, they are all in the same office.
I would even go further and say in my opinion, ALL Ministry employees should NOT be allowed to hunt in the same region they work out of. I would be happy with that.

[model88]

A good friend of mine owns a territory in the EK. Another friend of mine guided for him for a season, then after learning the area and all the outfitters secrets, he went into the territory with a couple buddies to hunt for himself the following year. They haven't spoke to each other since and even got in a fist-fight at a sportsman's banquet a couple years later. Not worth it, there's lots of places to go hunting.

I have guided for the last 10yrs or so and as a guide, it is frowned upon to go back into the area and hunt for yourself, yes its perfectly legal, just not morally right.

88

[Dutch Ppoacher]

what about going out with a fishing guide, to show you the techniques, then going out after that to the spots he showed you and using what the taught you to catch fish. is that frowned upon?


this happens alot! it gets so bad that when we take off in the morning there are boats waiting to follow us to the fishing grounds.
they even have the balls to drop in hali fishing 20-30 ft off. we have a few tricks to deal with this bs noow but usually somene ends up having to take a turn missing the first hr of fishing.
we pray for heavy fog during peak season off the coast here.

really good compairison though. tons of guys come fishing just to be able to do it them selfs.
there is a price difference in trips to think about.

DP

[dino]

Good point Dino.
If you think a person in his right mind is going to supply the correct and exact location of kill to the Government, Ministry of the Environment or whatever branch requests it. Ha ha, you would certainly be barking up the wrong tree. There have been to many times when a responsible citizen has submitted such information with exact location of kill for management porposes, only to find two Biologists hunting the exact location the very next year at the very exact same time. Forget it Dino. Once bitten twice shy.

If I want to find out where an outfitter is going, for example "deer." First I would call one of their past clients up which is easily accessed info and ask him the right questions on locations and you should not be surprised at how many americans carry gadgets like a GPS. Talk to the local CO BIO butcher or any locals that know the outfitter. There are many other ways to find where they go.Ive heard the packers will give you the info you want because we all know the relationship the guides and packers have. This may sound greasy but its easy and true, Its not at all hard to find and see these guys and where they hunt. Some of them advertise on their trucks parked in front of the trailhead ,its that easy. A guide is not going to help me get what I'm after so I wouldn't waste my money, most of them or their clients dont want to get off their horse. Ive glassed them many times below me glassing me where their horses cant go. To answer the thread. Yes! in a heartbeat but I will not spend the money that it sometimes takes to get into these places just to shoot a mediocre animal. We live in BC there's animals everywhere you just have to get out of the truck and look.

[Phreddy]

When I was guiding for salmon in Campbell River years ago, I had folks who would try to follow me after having hired me earlier for a 4-hour trip. When I saw them, I'd head out to the outer kelp bed off Quadra Island, drop a couple of lines with just a weight on them, wait until they put their lines in the water and hooked up to the kelp, then reel in and go to where I originally wanted to go. Worked every time.

[Island Redneck]

http://moldychum.vodspot.tv/video/4684709-firefighter-goes-part-time-guide (http://moldychum.vodspot.tv/video/4684709-firefighter-goes-part-time-guide)

Wanna be fishing guides.

[safarichris]

The reason I submit and propose that ALL Ministry of the Environment employees be denied the privileged of hunting in the Region they work out of, is they have an unfair advantage over sensitive information that can and has been used to their advantage. Simply put most all male employees hunt. Secretaries are exempt.

[Gilmore]

http://moldychum.vodspot.tv/video/4684709-firefighter-goes-part-time-guide (http://moldychum.vodspot.tv/video/4684709-firefighter-goes-part-time-guide)

Wanna be fishing guides.


That was hilarious!!!:lol::lol::lol:

[GoatGuy]

The reason I submit and propose that ALL Ministry of the Environment employees be denied the privileged of hunting in the Region they work out of, is they have an unfair advantage over sensitive information that can and has been used to their advantage. Simply put most all male employees hunt. Secretaries are exempt.

Maybe when you were around. There's plenty of biologists that have been hired (male and female) who don't hunt.

You should also be aware Ministry of Natural Resource Operations employees from other regions have access to all the data and counts. :wink:

[safarichris]

Maybe when you were around. There's plenty of biologists that have been hired (male and female) who don't hunt.

You should also be aware Ministry of Natural Resource Operations employees from other regions have access to all the data and counts. :wink:

Then lets simplify things to any Government employee of any Ministry that is wildlife affiliated who wishes to obtain a hunting license.

[GoatGuy]

Then lets simplify things to any Government employee of any Ministry that is wildlife affiliated who wishes to obtain a hunting license.

I don't think that's the greatest idea, but that's just me.:rolleyes:

[boxhitch]

Sounds good
Wait a minute
Seeing as how CI's are all contract workers they and there extended families should also be banned
How about the network of forestry workers who see whats on the ground every day ? Planters, drivers, road maintenance, surveyors.........they all have radios to comm ......Ban 'em !!
and the list goes on.......

[bridger]

Sounds good
Wait a minute
Seeing as how CI's are all contract workers they and there extended families should also be banned
How about the network of forestry workers who see whats on the ground every day ? Planters, drivers, road maintenance, surveyors.........they all have radios to comm ......Ban 'em !!
and the list goes on.......


now we are getting somewhere!! lol the ci guys i have know over the years have been pretty circumspect about privacy and not using the knowledge to hunt a certain area. most of the moe guys find their good hunting spots doing inventory and that is just as they say a perk.

[safarichris]

Sounds good
Wait a minute
Seeing as how CI's are all contract workers they and there extended families should also be banned
How about the network of forestry workers who see whats on the ground every day ? Planters, drivers, road maintenance, surveyors.........they all have radios to comm ......Ban 'em !!
and the list goes on.......

I don't think it would be asking to much if every employee affiliated with sensitive Ministry of Environment material or any other department of Government with access to those same files be denied the right to hunt in the same region they work out of. It will not stop entirely the advantage they have in using info submitted by the responsible citizen hunter, it might make it a little more difficult. After all, Government is a business, is it not managed on commercial principles? Maybe it's time we said ''enough is enough, we are being used''?

[ALPINE]

The way I see it, any Man that would book a hunt with a guide, have that guide bend over backwards for him, show him the area, etc, then Go Out of his way to go back in the following year is a real work of Art! And yes, I know it's Public land, but why would a person go out of there way to do this when there's so much Public land to hunt???


I agree with Mr.Bean and would find this action disrespectful. Not unless I received the ok from the guide.

[ALPINE]

http://moldychum.vodspot.tv/video/4684709-firefighter-goes-part-time-guide (http://moldychum.vodspot.tv/video/4684709-firefighter-goes-part-time-guide)

Wanna be fishing guides.




I almost pissed my pants! lol :-D In the off season they also become general contractors.

[Will]

http://moldychum.vodspot.tv/video/4684709-firefighter-goes-part-time-guide (http://moldychum.vodspot.tv/video/4684709-firefighter-goes-part-time-guide)

Wanna be fishing guides.


hahaha
"that is easy............... ! " :lol::lol::lol:

[troutseeker]

when I read the title I thought you had chucked the guide into a hole or something...

[dime]

Tell all your friends and their friends and their friends... put all the GOABC out of business.

[brenden]

If the outfitter was a lazy douche and you felt as though you got screwed somehow then pound away in his area but if you had a good, fair experience and had any respect for the guides...... then competing with them after they busted thier asses for you would be pretty slimy.


Brenden

[dino]

If the outfitter was a lazy douche and you felt as though you got screwed somehow then pound away in his area but if you had a good, fair experience and had any respect for the guides...... then competing with them after they busted thier asses for you would be pretty slimy.


Brenden

Their not busting their asses for you. They are busting their asses for the money and thats what there paid to do. When you pay someone to do a job shouldn't they do it to your satisfaction if your paying top dollar.

[bruin]

I would say its pretty low. The outfitter is limited to the areas he can hunt. Residents aren't. Its a great way to cause un-needed friction between outfitters and residents. Its this kind of stuff (from both sides) that lead to unsportsmanlike competition that can ruin a hunting trip (for both sides).

[Barracuda]

i wonder how many are guides or have guided on here?
i know some are protective and some are not but it would be interesting to hear a gbuides point of view?

I have heard about areas from folks that have been guided or have used a guide service (pictures GPS etc) and wonder if that would be considered the same as going back to a guide area even though the information is heresay so to speak.

[bcyukonair]

i flew for a guide in the yukon one summer and the pervious year they took a big sheep he reported the kill site to the co's on a drainage that had no sheep low and behold we fly by the evening before sheep season and there's head of wildlife ,a co and 2 biologist it also happens out of dease lake after a sheep survey

[David Heitsman]

I always offer a handhsake that I won't be back on my own. It's professional courtesy. I'm also a bit vague as to where I've spent the two weeks that I've been away when queried by my friends.

To me it's like backdooring your general contractor by hiring his tradesmen after he has lined them up for you. Or having your realtor bring you a purchaser and you turn him away only to go after his client
on your own to save the cost. It's all the same concept.

Highly unethical.

[Barracuda]

I always offer a handhsake that I won't be back on my own. It's professional courtesy. I'm also a bit vague as to where I've spent the two weeks that I've been away when queried by my friends.

To me it's like backdooring your general contractor by hiring his tradesmen after he has lined them up for you. Or having your realtor bring you a purchaser and you turn him away only to go after his client
on your own to save the cost. It's all the same concept.

Highly unethical.

poor example with realtors LOL!

Realtors are parasites and bottom feeders no different from pushers and pimps.:lol:
Ethics dont apply to them

[lorneparker1]

poor example with realtors LOL!

Realtors are parasites and bottom feeders no different from pushers and pimps.:lol:
Ethics dont apply to them


Why because they are salesmen? thats a tad out of line i think!

Lorne

[dino]

poor example with realtors LOL!

Realtors are parasites and bottom feeders no different from pushers and pimps.:lol:
Ethics dont apply to them
I couldnt agree with you more! Just like lawyers and hookers they will f**k anyone for money. I know not all lawyers and hookers are like that just 99.9% of you.

[Rodd]

That is why many Outfitters won't take resident hunters out and show them all their hard work... Because they come back with their friends, and friends of friends....etc... Can't keep it to themselfs... I like Mr. Heitsman philosiphy... A hand shake that you won't come back and be vague with your friends.... IMHO

[urbanhermit]

That is why many Outfitters won't take resident hunters out and show them all their hard work... Because they come back with their friends, and friends of friends....etc... Can't keep it to themselfs... I like Mr. Heitsman philosiphy... A hand shake that you won't come back and be vague with your friends.... IMHO
x2! or it's just another form of gutpile hunter..i guess that happens when it becomes more important to "get something" than enjoying the hunt itself.

[muledeercrazy]

Is it really a big deal when talking about a fishing charter? I mean, you honestly wouldnt show a person a spot if they asked? On the west coast of Van Island there are not many "secret" salmon spots. As a fishing guide you are not losing anything from your quota. Many people pay for a fishing charter to get to know an area, and this is pretty acceptable (as far as i know). It is pretty silly to think that if a guy pays for a guided trip out of Renfrew he shouldnt run his own boat there ever? Maybe the guys waiting to follow dont have radar and are just trying to be safer?





this happens alot! it gets so bad that when we take off in the morning there are boats waiting to follow us to the fishing grounds.
they even have the balls to drop in hali fishing 20-30 ft off. we have a few tricks to deal with this bs noow but usually somene ends up having to take a turn missing the first hr of fishing.
we pray for heavy fog during peak season off the coast here.

really good compairison though. tons of guys come fishing just to be able to do it them selfs.
there is a price difference in trips to think about.

DP

[dino]

Is it really a big deal when talking about a fishing charter? I mean, you honestly wouldnt show a person a spot if they asked? On the west coast of Van Island there are not many "secret" salmon spots. As a fishing guide you are not losing anything from your quota. Many people pay for a fishing charter to get to know an area, and this is pretty acceptable (as far as i know). It is pretty silly to think that if a guy pays for a guided trip out of Renfrew he shouldnt run his own boat there ever? Maybe the guys waiting to follow dont have radar and are just trying to be safer?
If you got the balls to take your boat out to the bank you will catch fish there and it sure is nice to follow any boat back. Ive seen 100 boats at the point and only a few will venture out to sea. X2 on your opinion about the guide thing. When I was into salmon fishing I always tried to help guys with less experience than me catch fish. There is alot of fish and animals for us all to share.

[Gunner]

Salmon move around and after you find them other boats will too.Halibut are another story,when I was chartering I kept my halibut honey holes as much to myself as possible,as did the other guys in the know.I scrubbed all my waypoints when I sold my GPS:twisted: Gunner