Muledeer in certain areas of BC

[Snowpatrol]

AS many know, there was a big bitch-athon about the muledeer in region 5 in another thread. Here's my questions for you guys. There are certain sections in each region that are typically hit hard by many hunters... Some areas are barely touched. There has got to be a way to manage the areas that are hit hard better.. ie everyone and their dog goes to the gang ranch.. The muledeer in that area have suffered.. empire valley, deer numbers are down. From empire all the way down to lillooet along the river numbers have dropped as well.

What do you think the cause of this is ????? Predation I know is a huge part in this...as wolf numbers have exploded all along the river. Region 5, region 3 both being effected !

Lets hear your thoughts !

[CanuckShooter]

Just think for a little while...what has changed in the last few years??

LEH doe draws...hundreds and hundreds given in each reg. 5 MU year after year after year.



Shouldn't take a rocket scientist to give a calculated guess.....

[Snowpatrol]

Didn't need the attack ! Just wanted some opinions ! nice start to the thread !

[CanuckShooter]

Sorry if that sounded like an attack.

IMO the major cause is all the doe leh tags, combined with moving the any buck into the november season....after those two changes is when I noticed a drop in deer pops.:-D

And I ain't no rocket scientist.

[Snowpatrol]

Sorry if that sounded like an attack.

IMO the major cause is all the doe leh tags, combined with moving the any buck into the november season....after those two changes is when I noticed a drop in deer pops.:-D

And I ain't no rocket scientist.

Not a problem.. just seems like everyone on this site has their back up as soon as you ask a question.. ! So your answer to my question ( how can we manage these small areas better) would be better manage the herd better period ??.

[CanuckShooter]

Cut back on the doe harvest, limit the 'any buck' to Sept/Oct with 4 pt in Nov/Dec. That would be #1.

#2>> Sell a limited number of special deer tags for specific MUs. to direct hunter pressure away from areas that your trying to increase the herd in. ie. [as an example] sell 2 doe tags that are only good for 5-13....

[GoatGuy]

AS many know, there was a big bitch-athon about the muledeer in region 5 in another thread. Here's my questions for you guys. There are certain sections in each region that are typically hit hard by many hunters... Some areas are barely touched. There has got to be a way to manage the areas that are hit hard better.. ie everyone and their dog goes to the gang ranch.. The muledeer in that area have suffered.. empire valley, deer numbers are down. From empire all the way down to lillooet along the river numbers have dropped as well.

What do you think the cause of this is ????? Predation I know is a huge part in this...as wolf numbers have exploded all along the river. Region 5, region 3 both being effected !

Lets hear your thoughts !

We've surveyed the hardest hit areas in the province and the deer numbers (buck:doe and fawn:doe) typically look good to great.

The areas in Region 3 with the longest season in the province, highest visibility, hunting pressure and harvest are all showing very healthy buck:doe ratios and excellent recruitment.

In the hardest hit areas of the Cariboo the buck:doe is typically around 20:100 or better, which is much higher than many other mule deer populations in North America and has no effect on productivity.

The areas where the buck:doe ratio is going to be below 20:100 are in the Granby and north of Creston. These ratios have no effect on the total population, just that they are below the threshold set up for social issues.

The biggest issue mule deer face across BC is a lack of fire - habitat enchancement. With good habitat you can have high harvest, lots of predators and deer/moose/elk populations that will explode despite of all this.

[CanuckShooter]

We've surveyed the hardest hit areas in the province and the deer numbers (buck:doe and fawn:doe) typically look good to great.

The areas in Region 3 with the longest season in the province, highest visibility, hunting pressure and harvest are all showing very healthy buck:doe ratios and excellent recruitment.

In the hardest hit areas of the Cariboo the buck:doe is typically around 20:100 or better, which is much higher than many other mule deer populations in North America and has no effect on productivity.

The areas where the buck:doe ratio is going to be below 20:100 are in the Granby and north of Creston. These ratios have no effect on the total population, just that they are below the threshold set up for social issues.

The biggest issue mule deer face across BC is a lack of fire - habitat enchancement. With good habitat you can have high harvest, lots of predators and deer/moose/elk populations that will explode despite of all this.

Well if this is the case we are in for some booner years in 7a..sure having lots of big burns the last few years.

BTW, how much use are buck:doe ratios really? 100 deer: 20 bucks/ 80 does looks pretty good....10 deer: 2 buck/8 does...doesn't look so good??

[GoatGuy]

Well if this is the case we are in for some booner years in 7a..sure having lots of big burns the last few years.

BTW, how much use are buck:doe ratios really? 100 deer: 20 bucks/ 80 does looks pretty good....10 deer: 2 buck/8 does...doesn't look so good??

Depends on the area but typically we're counting a couple hundred deer. More a function of budget and resulting chopper time.

[CanuckShooter]

Depends on the area but typically we're counting a couple hundred deer. More a function of budget and resulting chopper time.


I also wonder how migration patterns extrapolate into things....we know from experience of a certain MD hunting spot where the deer migrate through in large numbers for a couple of weeks each year....if you flew over in your chopper during that period your results would be pretty skewed???

[BCrams]

AS many know, there was a big bitch-athon about the muledeer in region 5 in another thread. Here's my questions for you guys. There are certain sections in each region that are typically hit hard by many hunters... Some areas are barely touched. There has got to be a way to manage the areas that are hit hard better.. ie everyone and their dog goes to the gang ranch.. The muledeer in that area have suffered.. empire valley, deer numbers are down. From empire all the way down to lillooet along the river numbers have dropped as well.

What do you think the cause of this is ????? Predation I know is a huge part in this...as wolf numbers have exploded all along the river. Region 5, region 3 both being effected !

Lets hear your thoughts !

The deer numbers in the Empire Valley are not 'down'. And when I say not down, its from both a population standpoint and the fact the deer are not "down" ....

The winters for quite a few years have just been more and more mild. The bucks hunters are hoping to harvest in the Empire / Gang havn't migrated there during the season. You're hunting primarily resident bucks and even those big resident bucks can avoid the crowds of the Empire / Gang in November. I've seen it.

Mule deer hunting is one of my favorite game animals to pursue. My first time in the Empire, I encountered quite a few deer camps and talked to quite a few hunters. No deer around they would all say and just lots of small bucks (spike, 2 pts and 3 pts).

I asked more than a few if anyone was hunting up high and nobody had or was. In all my time hunting down there, I only saw 1 vehicle go up high but just turned around and went back down low ... never stepped out of the truck.

I knew bucks would be up high in the timber and thats exactly where I went. The bucks were all over up there over 5000-6000 feet and pushing knee to thigh deep snow. Multiple 4 pt buck sightings / day. Another year, the last week of November, same thing, all the camps down low and it was -15 or so ... there was no snow up high this particular year yet it was an inversion and we were hunting in just sweaters all week in plus 5 weather. We also found sheds all over the place at over 5000 feet. Also - no hunters!!

Those bucks are smart - I am sure you're familiar with the Perlite Road and how everyone camps at the end of that road (as well as before the turn off). While checking out the area with fresh snow on the ground, everyone was headed east into the beautiful open timbered areas to hunt each and every day. Not one boot track went west :rolleyes: Where the larger mature bucks were. :-D

I saw big mule deer tracks along the Perlite. About the same number headed east as there were headed back west and up the mountain into that steep heavy timber. Everyone was hunting the nice stuff while the big bucks were west of the road during the day in relative security of heavy timbered slopes and chasing does down low by night. Some hunters would get lucky catching a nice buck who lingered or hung out down low.

So if you and your friends were hunting the Empire / Churn and complaining of no bucks ....... look higher and into the timber. Its not as fun hunting the timber / semi open alpine areas as compared to the open grasslands and sagebrush areas (unless you hit the rugged holes or certain pockets that require a good grunt to access. Most guys just aren't putting that effort in.

So in answer to your question .... its not about managing areas like this or the deer populations ... its educating the hunters and teaching them how / where to hunt the bucks they're trying to find :wink:

[Jelvis]

Believe it or not a lot of people don't like mule deer meat too much, whitetail they say is better and prefer moose or elk, so I wouldn't worry about mule deer too much.
If you only go out for a hunting trip or two for a long week end it's very hard to tell how many deer are around a big area especially when the season is on.
JP

[slyfox]

You hit it right on the nose bcram,s hit the thick stuff and start walking.

[GoatGuy]

I also wonder how migration patterns extrapolate into things....we know from experience of a certain MD hunting spot where the deer migrate through in large numbers for a couple of weeks each year....if you flew over in your chopper during that period your results would be pretty skewed???

The flights are typically conducted in early December and in some areas we'll also have carry-over counts in the spring.

[CanuckShooter]

The flights are typically conducted in early December and in some areas we'll also have carry-over counts in the spring.

OK, just trying to get a feel for this...your flying over in early Dec. and sometimes in other areas in the spring...how is it possible to use that data to determine deer populations between all the various MUs??? Or even the various regions for that matter??

[tomahawk]

The deer numbers in the Empire Valley are not 'down'. And when I say not down, its from both a population standpoint and the fact the deer are not "down" ....

The winters for quite a few years have just been more and more mild. The bucks hunters are hoping to harvest in the Empire / Gang havn't migrated there during the season. You're hunting primarily resident bucks and even those big resident bucks can avoid the crowds of the Empire / Gang in November. I've seen it.

Mule deer hunting is one of my favorite game animals to pursue. My first time in the Empire, I encountered quite a few deer camps and talked to quite a few hunters. No deer around they would all say and just lots of small bucks (spike, 2 pts and 3 pts).

I asked more than a few if anyone was hunting up high and nobody had or was. In all my time hunting down there, I only saw 1 vehicle go up high but just turned around and went back down low ... never stepped out of the truck.

I knew bucks would be up high in the timber and thats exactly where I went. The bucks were all over up there over 5000-6000 feet and pushing knee to thigh deep snow. Multiple 4 pt buck sightings / day. Another year, the last week of November, same thing, all the camps down low and it was -15 or so ... there was no snow up high this particular year yet it was an inversion and we were hunting in just sweaters all week in plus 5 weather. We also found sheds all over the place at over 5000 feet. Also - no hunters!!

Those bucks are smart - I am sure you're familiar with the Perlite Road and how everyone camps at the end of that road (as well as before the turn off). While checking out the area with fresh snow on the ground, everyone was headed east into the beautiful open timbered areas to hunt each and every day. Not one boot track went west :rolleyes: Where the larger mature bucks were. :-D

I saw big mule deer tracks along the Perlite. About the same number headed east as there were headed back west and up the mountain into that steep heavy timber. Everyone was hunting the nice stuff while the big bucks were west of the road during the day in relative security of heavy timbered slopes and chasing does down low by night. Some hunters would get lucky catching a nice buck who lingered or hung out down low.

So if you and your friends were hunting the Empire / Churn and complaining of no bucks ....... look higher and into the timber. Its not as fun hunting the timber / semi open alpine areas as compared to the open grasslands and sagebrush areas (unless you hit the rugged holes or certain pockets that require a good grunt to access. Most guys just aren't putting that effort in.

So in answer to your question .... its not about managing areas like this or the deer populations ... its educating the hunters and teaching them how / where to hunt the bucks they're trying to find :wink:

Your bang on, not just for the Empire Valley either, most area's its just like you said! More effort put into the hunt = more returns!!

[Sitkaspruce]

Rams has got a great point.

When we used to hunt the "ranch", we would hunt the last few days of the any buck season and then the week of 4 point season, back when we had any buck up to Nov 25, then 4 point from the 26th until the end of Nov. We would see lots of bucks, some big, some small. What we would also see is lots of snow and cold temps. I remember the the whole area being closed due to too much snow one time, lots of guys got stuck and had to be rescued.

Now we have much milder winters with later than normal snowfall back in the summer range, which has resulted in a late or no migration of the deer. There was a report a long time ago that had some radio collared deer summering in the ranges around Knights Inlet and migrating down to the Fraser in the winter.

Habitat and milder winters are all playing a part in why there is "no deer in the Ranch/Empire Valley" complaints.

And why, when there was more hunters, was the deer population healthy and sustainable when we used to have any buck until the 25th on Nov????

The deer are still there, but a lot stay higher and migrate later.

Cheers

SS

[Snowpatrol]

The deer numbers in the Empire Valley are not 'down'. And when I say not down, its from both a population standpoint and the fact the deer are not "down" ....

The winters for quite a few years have just been more and more mild. The bucks hunters are hoping to harvest in the Empire / Gang havn't migrated there during the season. You're hunting primarily resident bucks and even those big resident bucks can avoid the crowds of the Empire / Gang in November. I've seen it.

Mule deer hunting is one of my favorite game animals to pursue. My first time in the Empire, I encountered quite a few deer camps and talked to quite a few hunters. No deer around they would all say and just lots of small bucks (spike, 2 pts and 3 pts).

I asked more than a few if anyone was hunting up high and nobody had or was. In all my time hunting down there, I only saw 1 vehicle go up high but just turned around and went back down low ... never stepped out of the truck.

I knew bucks would be up high in the timber and thats exactly where I went. The bucks were all over up there over 5000-6000 feet and pushing knee to thigh deep snow. Multiple 4 pt buck sightings / day. Another year, the last week of November, same thing, all the camps down low and it was -15 or so ... there was no snow up high this particular year yet it was an inversion and we were hunting in just sweaters all week in plus 5 weather. We also found sheds all over the place at over 5000 feet. Also - no hunters!!

Those bucks are smart - I am sure you're familiar with the Perlite Road and how everyone camps at the end of that road (as well as before the turn off). While checking out the area with fresh snow on the ground, everyone was headed east into the beautiful open timbered areas to hunt each and every day. Not one boot track went west :rolleyes: Where the larger mature bucks were. :-D

I saw big mule deer tracks along the Perlite. About the same number headed east as there were headed back west and up the mountain into that steep heavy timber. Everyone was hunting the nice stuff while the big bucks were west of the road during the day in relative security of heavy timbered slopes and chasing does down low by night. Some hunters would get lucky catching a nice buck who lingered or hung out down low.

So if you and your friends were hunting the Empire / Churn and complaining of no bucks ....... look higher and into the timber. Its not as fun hunting the timber / semi open alpine areas as compared to the open grasslands and sagebrush areas (unless you hit the rugged holes or certain pockets that require a good grunt to access. Most guys just aren't putting that effort in.

So in answer to your question .... its not about managing areas like this or the deer populations ... its educating the hunters and teaching them how / where to hunt the bucks they're trying to find :wink:

BC Rams... I don't disagree with you on a lot of what you wrote... My number one passion is hunting mule deer... I hunt hard, don't see many people where I go because it is to tough for most.. I'm also a avid sheep hunter.. I know how hard to work. My number 2 passion is hunting cats.. I don't think that these huge bucks that you're talking about can stay up high all year... maybe the occasional year.. but not years like this year where there is alot of snow up high... I spend all winter in wintering grounds,... don't you think a guy should see the odd monster ???? I sled up into the highcountry looking for cat tracks.. don't you think I would see deer tracks if they were up there.. ??? Don't take this as a hack on you... take it as me throwing ideas at you ! please.. !!! You have a lot of good info !

[frenchbar]

easy access.... personaly i used to hunt a few drainages that produced a lot of muleys..untill quad trails were cut into the alpine ..they are now FUBAR ..and it only took a couple yrs !!

[BCrams]

snowpatrol - I believe mule deer bucks and especially the larger ones, are every bit as elusive after hunting season and through winter until they drop their antlers. Overwintering bucks may only occupy a small habitat niche all winter in order to survive by conserving fuel and energy with minimal movement. You could run your sled along a section of trail a couple times a week and never see a deer track all winter, yet only 500 meters away might be a small D'fir ridge area in which a big mule deer buck won't stray more than a few hundred meters for long stretches of time post rut and right through winter and only extraordinary snow depths or a predator moving him out.

My relative told me of a couple big mule deer bucks that would show up every year in January / February on part of his trapline within his property where they would reside all winter long - a spot only approx. 450x450 meters within a D'fir ridge / area until the snow disappeared. You wouldn't think there was a deer was within miles due to no tracks on the surrounding roads until you walked into that small patch of bush.

I've done some winter track counts on mule deer winter range and quite frankly, turning up a big buck is / was every bit as hard yet bumping does or small bucks weren't too difficult. I know some big bucks were there as I had a glimpse of one.

[dino]

What happens when those same mule deer that are wintering higher up because of mild winters when a freak snow storm blows through and dumps 2-3 or more feet of snow in an area where it can take more than a few days to get to traditional wintering grounds. Is there a chance that they are caught to high up and cant make the low ground. I know deer can manage quite easily in 2-3 feet of snow but if there is 5-6 feet of snow for miles and miles will they survive?

[Jelvis]

Mule deer migrate down b4 the rut, lots of hunters don't realize what bio's have been studying for years it goes by hours of daylight entering the animals eyes. Same thing every year since it started.
Breeding is done on winter range every year not way up on Mt Everest, lol.
Winter range in BC is under 3900 feet in general.
Jel PHD.photoperiodismspecialistbc.ba ( You dint know? ) Now you know.
Chuck Norris .. Invented Photo-Periodism .. Amount of light entering eye creates all activity for deer ..

[dana]

Val Geist states that there are some places in NA (he actually named the Interior of BC) where it is quite common for bucks not to come out of the highcountry. They will stay up just below timberline for most of the winter. Amazing how much feed those Big Spruce Tree Wells can produce. One or two bucks can winter in the ESSF all winter and never have to worry about predation because the predators are in the low country hunting the large herds of does and fawns and little bucks. I've seen it with my own eyes by picking up sheds in that country. I can even remember as a kid picking up a big ol' muley shed in the high country meadows of the Greystokes of the Okanagan. One winter I was laying out some high elevation spruce that bordered scrub sub alpine. The snow conditions were rock hard and I didn't need snowshoes. I found a little creek that was still flowing and I jumped down into the snowwell to get a drink. Was over 7 feet of snow in that location. Later on in the day I hit a big buck track, and I mean Big Buck. He was walking on top and eatin' the tops off the scub sub-alpine fir. He had no need to bail down to the low country. While some deer travel over 100 kms from summer range to winter range, other deer only have to go 5-10kms straight down hill. It can be well over belly deep, actually as deep as the top of their backs before they swim their way down. Not a big deal at all.
So with this in mind, IMO, this is actually what we have going on in many areas of the province. The big boys just ain't coming down low because the winters are super mild. And when they do come down, it is later in the winter when they are already shed out. This year is an example of that. Around here, the big bucks shed out the second week of Jan. There wasn't a lot of snow around then but we did get a bunch of snow shortly after that. So you can bet I'm going to be hitting some of those higher areas looking for sheds this year.

As for managing heavily hunted areas, it is really easy, have unified hunting seasons in all the southern Interior to keep the hunters from bouncing around following the open areas. If every Region followed Region 3's example and had their seasons open from Sept 1-Dec 10th, you would find far less pressure in those 'special areas'.

[Jelvis]

If you were a big virile stud buck and in the middle of October the does and yearling females moved down ahead of deep snow, you telling me your not going down to mix it up? lol .. I guess your not as virile as you think lol ..
Might as well stay up high in the four feet of snow with your buddy lol ....
Jel .. ( lol ) I guess you ain't gettin nun lol .. haha .. don't work that way lol .. they come down too
Giest lives in Alberta on the plains, he never hunted bc ever lol .. he's a school teacher lol ............
He works during hunting season .. what elevation was your monster buck shot at this season? lol
Hu hah there yah go .. contradicts your own info .. Please don't say they run up and down from top to bottom each day lol .. I heard it b4 ..

[dana]

Jelly, if you it took ya a couple of hours to get to those does, why would you spend the rest of the winter there? Never heard of bucks going down, breeding the does, and then heading back up again all within the same night? Happens quite often. And if you think all does head down at the slightest skiff of snow, you are saidly mistaken. I've had numerous years where I've hunted the high ESSF zones in the rut and seen a lot of rutting action. Not every deer lives in the valley bottom in the winter. Heck, seems to be quite the occurance this year when it snows big, the does are down on the highway. When she melts back like this week, they are back up on top of the mountain.

[CanuckShooter]

You guys are both right...have even seen the big boys right down on the Fraser river in august.....:mrgreen::mrgreen:

Pressure has a lot to do with where they hang out later IMO.

[Jelvis]

Bucks want action and they will kill to get it, any doe with this years fawns will head down around October end of first week because those lil ones have short legs so no deep snow for mamma and fawn.
Mature does are the first to be bred from October 23rd to Nov 4th then the yearlings, then the left overs according to Kamloops bio's who studied the mule deer in the Kamloops region for decades, with collars and night vision etc.
Around mid October the big bucks think of coming down, I talked to one lol, no but the local specialist told me this. Then approx October 23rd it's time to tango, and it takes two to tango. Ask Tango and Cash.
Again what elevation did buddy get big booker, I bet at about 3000 feet give or take a couple hundred.
Jel .. You want to tango you gotta get down .. where the majority of the ladies are.
Can yah smell that smell?
.. Lyn ard skin ard

[GoatGuy]

If you were a big virile stud buck and in the middle of October the does and yearling females moved down ahead of deep snow, you telling me your not going down to mix it up? lol .. I guess your not as virile as you think lol ..
Might as well stay up high in the four feet of snow with your buddy lol ....
Jel .. ( lol ) I guess you ain't gettin nun lol .. haha .. don't work that way lol .. they come down too
Giest lives in Alberta on the plains, he never hunted bc ever lol .. he's a school teacher lol ............
He works during hunting season .. what elevation was your monster buck shot at this season? lol
Hu hah there yah go .. contradicts your own info .. Please don't say they run up and down from top to bottom each day lol .. I heard it b4 ..

Geist lives in BC and he's spent a pile of time following mule deer around in
the rut.

Mule bucks are traditional where they rut. The best place to find a big buck is to find age and age is tied to lower harvest. Of course this wasn't the topic of the thread.

[horshur]

Jelly, if you it took ya a couple of hours to get to those does, why would you spend the rest of the winter there? Never heard of bucks going down, breeding the does, and then heading back up again all within the same night? Happens quite often. And if you think all does head down at the slightest skiff of snow, you are saidly mistaken. I've had numerous years where I've hunted the high ESSF zones in the rut and seen a lot of rutting action. Not every deer lives in the valley bottom in the winter. Heck, seems to be quite the occurance this year when it snows big, the does are down on the highway. When she melts back like this week, they are back up on top of the mountain.

you shot several nice bucks in a relitively small area.....you have some of their sheds.....your small area isn't really very high is it? and the sheds were found pretty near where you shot the bucks as well..

I have been there......I'd really hate to see some new hunting recruit getting the idea that he has to be in four feet of snow above 4000 feet like the Dana crew.....cause that is not what you typicaly do with much success.

[Snowpatrol]

Geist lives in BC and he's spent a pile of time following mule deer around in
the rut.

Mule bucks are traditional where they rut. The best place to find a big buck is to find age and age is tied to lower harvest. Of course this wasn't the topic of the thread.

But it was in the other thread that some of you guys wanted more opportunity for the resi's to shoot every 2 pt they see... And Goatguy.. Just for the record ! You posted a rude comment towards me in the other thread.... First of all... You have no idea who I am.... Quote " none of my friends would post the things I post because most of them are guides and wouldn't come up with the stuff that you do... Well guess what... I'm a full time guide. Its all I do.. All year, all the time.. All over BC and the NWT... I guess I think outside the box sometimes.. So don't call me an uneducated resident hunter that knows jack shit and doesn't spend time in the bush... On and given year I spend 50-70 days at home... the rest ??? You got it.. in the bush learning about and observing the wildlife.. Not like you, who sits in an office and comes up with all these numbers !!!

[Snowpatrol]

Ken Miller is a resident of BC... Not sure if he is still with us.. He used to do seminars on mule deer to teach us little hunter about the deer.. He shot a lot of huge buck in sept. in the low country.. not resident big bucks but migrating big bucks... he called them stakers ! They would come down to their traditional breeding grounds to STAKE out his doe's.. Go back up to the high country until the rut and come back down to breed in Nov. This is a guy that has shot numerous deer out of the same stand with pictures of bucks taken by the same tree every year.. He knows his shit ! Ever seen a mule deer that after the guts out weighing 420lbs ??? Ask Ken Miller ! We're not talking about 170 inch buck here.. we're talking 185 and higher... every year in september in LOW country !

[todbartell]

"I have been there......I'd really hate to see some new hunting recruit getting the idea that he has to be in four feet of snow above 4000 feet like the Dana crew.....cause that is not what you typicaly do with much success."

...............:mrgreen:

[GoatGuy]

[/b]

But it was in the other thread that some of you guys wanted more opportunity for the resi's to shoot every 2 pt they see... And Goatguy.. Just for the record ! You posted a rude comment towards me in the other thread.... First of all... You have no idea who I am.... Quote " none of my friends would post the things I post because most of them are guides and wouldn't come up with the stuff that you do... Well guess what... I'm a full time guide. Its all I do.. All year, all the time.. All over BC and the NWT... I guess I think outside the box sometimes.. So don't call me an uneducated resident hunter that knows jack shit and doesn't spend time in the bush... On and given year I spend 50-70 days at home... the rest ??? You got it.. in the bush learning about and observing the wildlife.. Not like you, who sits in an office and comes up with all these numbers !!!

What does a resident hunter shooting a 2 pt have to do with sustainability? Why should a resident have to be regulated to shoot a big buck because you think that's what he should be doing. And what does that have to do with conservation?

Through you're thread you have implied a decline in mule deer is due to hunting when it isn't. There are indicators that are easily measured when over-hunting is an issue and we dont see any of those for mule deer in BC.

Having a productive discussion is tied to either being informed or learning as much as possible and supporting your argument with some kind of fact. What you're saying and what science tells us are heading in opposite directions. If you want more deer than look at habitat- hunting isn't the problem. Spending that many days guiding is great, but if you have no intention of informing yourself you will be able to see a decline but you won't be able to trap the problems and identify solutions. Hence, this thread and your other posts. Conservation and what you want to see are two totally different issues. Eliminating hunting in the areas you're talking about will not miraculously result in thousands of more deer. And to be honest in a lot of these spots low fawn counts is not going to be tied to bucks but condition of the habitat. You'll have a much healthier and productive population if you keep things on the lower end as opposed to the higher end.

I think your issue is not one of conservation but a social issue tied to not being able to find big bucks. There are plenty of threads on here about that already and there are still plenty of guys that complain about other hunters being the reason they can't find a decent buck or that deer have declined. There are several others who have talked about big bucks and haven't been able to find them. We even have one member who has been touring North America in search of something the goes over 160 and can't find it. All the while the rest of us are hunting in BC and finding 170+ bucks no problem.

If the girls can do it the guys should be able to.

[GoatGuy]

you shot several nice bucks in a relitively small area.....you have some of their sheds.....your small area isn't really very high is it? and the sheds were found pretty near where you shot the bucks as well..

I have been there......I'd really hate to see some new hunting recruit getting the idea that he has to be in four feet of snow above 4000 feet like the Dana crew.....cause that is not what you typicaly do with much success.

There's three spots we hunt that are in the sub-alpine and right into the high country in the rut. Can be a lot of hiking to get in there, usually not a pile of deer, but deer nonetheless. They're nice little hidey holes as everybody else is typically down running around in the cutblocks.

[6616]

AS many know, there was a big bitch-athon about the muledeer in region 5 in another thread. Here's my questions for you guys. There are certain sections in each region that are typically hit hard by many hunters... Some areas are barely touched. There has got to be a way to manage the areas that are hit hard better.. ie everyone and their dog goes to the gang ranch.. The muledeer in that area have suffered.. empire valley, deer numbers are down. From empire all the way down to lillooet along the river numbers have dropped as well.

What do you think the cause of this is ????? Predation I know is a huge part in this...as wolf numbers have exploded all along the river. Region 5, region 3 both being effected !

Lets hear your thoughts !

My thoughts:

It's very difficult to micro-manage small pockets. The hunting regulations would be 300 pages long. Typically as with all species there are areas that develop a reputation and get hit hard, there are areas that have easy access and get hit hard, there are areas completely opposite that are hard to get to and don't get hunted much. Same happens all over and with all species. Is it really such a big worry as long as overall regional populations are doing OK. It's really not feasible and not necessary to have different regulations for each MU as long as there are some population sinks in existence.

Actually, considering that mule deer optimally should be kept at a density of 60 to 65% of carrying capacity, there are probably more areas in BC that have too many mule deer than areas that don't have enough. Big trophy bucks traditionally come from low density populations, not high density stressed populations with over-used habitat conditions.

You also have to look at areas like the Okanagan that have too many white tails that may be eating the mulies out of house and home and driving up predator numbers, or the East Kootenay where the elk/WTD combined populations are competing heavily with mule deer. A point I tried to make when MOE was developing the Southern Interior Mule Deer Management Strategy was that where there's a competition factor involved mule deer cannot be managed as a stand alone species. Elk management and WTD management should be integral to and part of a bigger management plan that includes mule deer and maintains a population balance between spatial and forage competing species.

[boxhitch]

It's very difficult to micro-manage small pockets. and rather pointless.
deer will react to hunting pressure and habitat degradation by just moving to another area, they don't stand around waiting to die. Hunters just have to react. Thats why it is called hunting

The new trend of homogonizing seasons is to move away from micro management in a way supported by science and sustainability. Why go backwards ?

[Snowpatrol]

What does a resident hunter shooting a 2 pt have to do with sustainability? Why should a resident have to be regulated to shoot a big buck because you think that's what he should be doing. And what does that have to do with conservation?

Through you're thread you have implied a decline in mule deer is due to hunting when it isn't. There are indicators that are easily measured when over-hunting is an issue and we dont see any of those for mule deer in BC.

Having a productive discussion is tied to either being informed or learning as much as possible and supporting your argument with some kind of fact. What you're saying and what science tells us are heading in opposite directions. If you want more deer than look at habitat- hunting isn't the problem. Spending that many days guiding is great, but if you have no intention of informing yourself you will be able to see a decline but you won't be able to trap the problems and identify solutions. Hence, this thread and your other posts. Conservation and what you want to see are two totally different issues. Eliminating hunting in the areas you're talking about will not miraculously result in thousands of more deer. And to be honest in a lot of these spots low fawn counts is not going to be tied to bucks but condition of the habitat. You'll have a much healthier and productive population if you keep things on the lower end as opposed to the higher end.

I think your issue is not one of conservation but a social issue tied to not being able to find big bucks. There are plenty of threads on here about that already and there are still plenty of guys that complain about other hunters being the reason they can't find a decent buck or that deer have declined. There are several others who have talked about big bucks and haven't been able to find them. We even have one member who has been touring North America in search of something the goes over 160 and can't find it. All the while the rest of us are hunting in BC and finding 170+ bucks no problem.

If the girls can do it the guys should be able to.

Where in my question in the original post say that the decline of the deer is from hunting.. read the question dude !!!!!!!! Also where have I ever said the "I" can't find big bucks... Every resident hunter that I bump into except a few of them ask.. what happened here, there are no big bucks like there used to be... And goatguy... for the most it is true ! Predation is a huge factor right now... if you spend so much time in the bush you would know that.. Along the river and down low where all the does and fawn are they are getting wailed on by wolves.. The gang ranch alone lost 120 calves one spring to wolves.. empire valley ranch is getting hit as well... and the deer ??? yup they are taking a shit kick'n. I'm not talking about eliminating hunting in certain areas.. that would be stupid ! I'm asking how can we manage those areas better... read the questions. Also.. you ask how does shooting 2 pts hurt the population ? They are young dumb deer usually and easy to shoot.. When I roll into a resident camp with 30 guys in it as a big group from the lower mainland... and they have 20 deer hanging throughout the camp all 2 pts.. there might be a problem ???? I wonder if all those got counted in the harvest numbers for that year ?? It all adds to the problem.. the problems are migration route have been changed due to logging and beetle kill, predators,winters, etc..

[horshur]

There's three spots we hunt that are in the sub-alpine and right into the high country in the rut. Can be a lot of hiking to get in there, usually not a pile of deer, but deer nonetheless. They're nice little hidey holes as everybody else is typically down running around in the cutblocks.

why don't you guys just be honest and tell them that yah it isn't what it once was nor can be with the current range conditions and management strategies rather then blowing sunshine up everyones ass.

in the count that you have refered to it is sure someone squeezing the trigger on the counter also noticed noticed the age class of the bucks up high or down low. Why don't you guys post the percentage%

you know the percentages in you sheep counts or at least it is infered when those statistics are posted.

the bioligists obviously know the numbers.

[Sitkaspruce]

[/B]

But it was in the other thread that some of you guys wanted more opportunity for the resi's to shoot every 2 pt they see... And Goatguy.. Just for the record ! You posted a rude comment towards me in the other thread.... First of all... You have no idea who I am.... Quote " none of my friends would post the things I post because most of them are guides and wouldn't come up with the stuff that you do... Well guess what... I'm a full time guide. Its all I do.. All year, all the time.. All over BC and the NWT... I guess I think outside the box sometimes.. So don't call me an uneducated resident hunter that knows jack shit and doesn't spend time in the bush... On and given year I spend 50-70 days at home... the rest ??? You got it.. in the bush learning about and observing the wildlife.. Not like you, who sits in an office and comes up with all these numbers !!!

What the F@#$k does this have to do with the question of your original post???????

If you have a problem with someone, send them a PM, nobody cares if you are a guide or not and are only home 50-70 days.

You asked a question and are getting OPINIONS on what different folks think....and they are just OPINIONS.....(ok some are actual facts)....but man, keep it on topic or soon this one will be locked as well....and for once, stay off the GUIDE issue, this is an interesting topic and I want to see what others say.

Cheers

SS

[GoatGuy]

There are certain sections in each region that are typically hit hard by many hunters... Some areas are barely touched. There has got to be a way to manage the areas that are hit hard better.. ie everyone and their dog goes to the gang ranch.. The muledeer in that area have suffered.. empire valley, deer numbers are down. From empire all the way down to lillooet along the river numbers have dropped as well.


This was just filler?


Where in my question in the original post say that the decline of the deer is from hunting.. read the question dude !!!!!!!! Also where have I ever said the "I" can't find big bucks... Every resident hunter that I bump into except a few of them ask.. what happened here, there are no big bucks like there used to be... And goatguy... for the most it is true ! Predation is a huge factor right now... if you spend so much time in the bush you would know that.. Along the river and down low where all the does and fawn are they are getting wailed on by wolves.. The gang ranch alone lost 120 calves one spring to wolves.. empire valley ranch is getting hit as well... and the deer ??? yup they are taking a shit kick'n. I'm not talking about eliminating hunting in certain areas.. that would be stupid ! I'm asking how can we manage those areas better... read the questions. Also.. you ask how does shooting 2 pts hurt the population ? They are young dumb deer usually and easy to shoot.. When I roll into a resident camp with 30 guys in it as a big group from the lower mainland... and they have 20 deer hanging throughout the camp all 2 pts.. there might be a problem ???? I wonder if all those got counted in the harvest numbers for that year ?? It all adds to the problem.. the problems are migration route have been changed due to logging and beetle kill, predators,winters, etc..

Since the moose GOS was closed the buck:doe ratios have never been so high. The number of Class IV bucks also increased after moose was closed and there are certainly far more deer than there were back then.

So how does shooting 2 pts hurt the population? The buck;doe ratios are very healthy, much better than most places across North America. So no, it doesn't 'add to the problem.'

[GoatGuy]

why don't you guys just be honest and tell them that yah it isn't what it once was nor can be with the current range conditions and management strategies rather then blowing sunshine up everyones ass.

in the count that you have refered to it is sure someone squeezing the trigger on the counter also noticed noticed the age class of the bucks up high or down low. Why don't you guys post the percentage%

you know the percentages in you sheep counts or at least it is infered when those statistics are posted.

the bioligists obviously know the numbers.

What does age or the % of class bucks have to do with population dynamics? When it comes to deer, sperm is sperm is sperm is sperm. Whether it's 2 or 8 years old it all works just the same.

The original topic is all about 'deer disappearing', at least I think it was. The buck:doe and fawn:doe ratios tells us hunting is not the problem.

We keep track for sheep because bringing the age of males down actually has a negative effect on the entire sheep population - the same is not true for deer.

[horshur]

What does age or the % of class bucks have to do with population dynamics? When it comes to deer, sperm is sperm is sperm is sperm. Whether it's 2 or 8 years old it all works just the same.

The original topic is all about 'deer disappearing', at least I think it was. The buck:doe and fawn:doe ratios tells us hunting is not the problem.

We keep track for sheep because bringing the age of males down actually has a negative effect on the entire sheep population - the same is not true for deer.

you know why locals are complaining.....why don't you just be honest?

[Snowpatrol]

What the F@#$k does this have to do with the question of your original post???????

If you have a problem with someone, send them a PM, nobody cares if you are a guide or not and are only home 50-70 days.

You asked a question and are getting OPINIONS on what different folks think....and they are just OPINIONS.....(ok some are actual facts)....but man, keep it on topic or soon this one will be locked as well....and for once, stay off the GUIDE issue, this is an interesting topic and I want to see what others say.

Cheers

SS

It has to do with alot.. its called respect.. you're right this is a good topic.. why is it that all the hunters that I talk to are asking "what happened to the deer around here ?.. Goatguy is adamant that the deer populations are better than they ever were.. I disagree ! buck-doe ratio's don't mean shit to me... like was posted before.. before 200 doe's 40 bucks.. now maybe 100 doe's 20 buck or maybe there are 10 doe's to 2 bucks.. they still come up with a good buck to doe ratio. In the big picture the deer numbers are down. Admit it !!

I wasn't on the guide topic.. Goatguy said I was stupid and knew nothing and him and all his guide friends did.. It was a personal attack.. not a guide issue.. just for your clarity !

[Fisher-Dude]

When I roll into a resident camp with 30 guys in it as a big group from the lower mainland... and they have 20 deer hanging throughout the camp all 2 pts.. there might be a problem ????

Why don't YOU be truthful? You've outlined YOUR problem quite clearly in this post: people from other areas hunting where you like to take your clients. It has nothing to do with conservation or the health of the herd. What you've revealed is your disdain for hunters from the lower mainland.

Also, the "fact" that you're seeing 30 guys with 20 deer hanging is, in itself, indicative of a high success rate that only comes from a healthy deer herd with tonnes of sperm-filled bucks running around. 67% success in mule deer hunting is a terrific percentage, and shows that populations are very strong.

If you'd told us that camp of 30 guys had only a couple of bucks because all the deer have disappeared as you have stated in many posts, then you'd be credible on your original claim. But, crying that there are no deer, then posting that you've seen 30 lower mainlanders (who, as we all know, are "shitty" hunters compared to you wonderful local guides) with 20 bucks totally discredits your original claim.

A good bullshitter needs to keep track of his lies, lest he contradict them later. You're a BAD bullshitter Snowballs. And your motive to keep people out of "your" territory is as plain as the nose on your face.

[horshur]

Snowpatrol.....it has been pre-ordained that the BCWF support maximum sustainable yield strategy for your hunting area as long as science says there is no conservation concern they wish to push the maximum hard.......and that means that things have and will change from what it once was.
they can say this with good conscience because there are some papers out that show hunter numbers are declining rapidly and that certain factors are to blame.....they also believe that if they cannot get the numbers back they will lose hunting altogether or at least some autonomy in decision making.
I take exception regarding what factors are actually to blame but that is my opinion.

Goat said it years ago on this forum..that hunters will have to sacrifice or give up stuff ...you will not have as good of hunting for mature deer as you once had. The BCWF wants this!

I wonder if the lack of participation in region 5 AGM is because the FED is not listening to locals and is voting the party line? There are certainly rumours of this.

In time it won't matter much...because the recruitment strategy will not be successful because it doesn't actually address the real barriers nor could it anyway. The real barriers are outside our influence.

[GoatGuy]

It has to do with alot.. its called respect.. you're right this is a good topic.. why is it that all the hunters that I talk to are asking "what happened to the deer around here ?.. Goatguy is adamant that the deer populations are better than they ever were.. I disagree ! buck-doe ratio's don't mean shit to me... like was posted before.. before 200 doe's 40 bucks.. now maybe 100 doe's 20 buck or maybe there are 10 doe's to 2 bucks.. they still come up with a good buck to doe ratio. In the big picture the deer numbers are down. Admit it !!

I wasn't on the guide topic.. Goatguy said I was stupid and knew nothing and him and all his guide friends did.. It was a personal attack.. not a guide issue.. just for your clarity !

Deer numbers might be down compared to a couple years ago. It is unlikely that they are lower then they were 15 years ago.

If deer are down in some spots it will be habitat or a combination of habitat and predation and in the long-term deer numbers will continue to decline.

[GoatGuy]

you know why locals are complaining.....why don't you just be honest?

Is that the topic of the thread or would you like to start another one?


Snowpatrol.....it has been pre-ordained that the BCWF support maximum sustainable yield strategy for your hunting area as long as science says there is no conservation concern they wish to push the maximum hard.......and that means that things have and will change from what it once was.
they can say this with good conscience because there are some papers out that show hunter numbers are declining rapidly and that certain factors are to blame.....they also believe that if they cannot get the numbers back they will lose hunting altogether or at least some autonomy in decision making.
I take exception regarding what factors are actually to blame but that is my opinion.

Goat said it years ago on this forum..that hunters will have to sacrifice or give up stuff ...you will not have as good of hunting for mature deer as you once had. The BCWF wants this!

I wonder if the lack of participation in region 5 AGM is because the FED is not listening to locals and is voting the party line? There are certainly rumours of this.

In time it won't matter much...because the recruitment strategy will not be successful because it doesn't actually address the real barriers nor could it anyway. The real barriers are outside our influence.

The management in Region 5 is no where near max sustainable yield, it's still extremely conservative and the buck:doe ratios are still much better then they were when moose was GOS.

[BCrams]

[quote=Snowpatrol;858017]Also where have I ever said the "I" can't find big bucks...


As a guide, are you finding bucks for your clients?


Every resident hunter that I bump into except a few of them ask.. what happened here, there are no big bucks like there used to be...

I typically run into that no matter where or when I hunt and I just dismiss it because big bucks simply require a fair bit of effort to hunt irregardless of where one hunts in BC.


Predation is a huge factor right now... Along the river and down low where all the does and fawn are they are getting wailed on by wolves.. The gang ranch alone lost 120 calves one spring to wolves.. empire valley ranch is getting hit as well... and the deer ??? yup they are taking a shit kick'n.

Quite natural and its also natural that some deer are going to adapt. Finding big deer is hard enough with no pressure - throw in a pack of wolves in an area and you've got yourself a tough hunt for bucks that are just sitting tight in thick bush almost year 'round.

Wolves won't kill every single deer in an area. I hunted the Robson last fall and the amount of wolf sign was crazy. Higher than in past years but a little figuring out - I found the deer ..... in the thickest bush and thick wetlands and timber immediatly adjacent to these areas. Like deer, resident hunters / guides need to adapt as well.


I'm asking how can we manage those areas better...

Seeing as its your question - What do you think needs to be done? and why? What do you want accomplished? and why?


They are young dumb deer usually and easy to shoot.. When I roll into a resident camp with 30 guys in it as a big group from the lower mainland... and they have 20 deer hanging throughout the camp all 2 pts.. there might be a problem ????

Where is the problem? I see a camp with a high success rate and some fantastic deer hunting had by all participants. I would give my congrats and be happy about their success and continue on to find the bigger bucks they're not putting an effort into hunting.

[frenchbar]

I typically run into that no matter where or when I hunt and I just dismiss it because big bucks simply require a fair bit of effort to hunt irregardless of where one hunts in BC.

yup ...its all about cheap and easy for some and when they cant fullfill their expectations ...they have to lay the blame on something:???:

[Snowpatrol]

Why don't YOU be truthful? You've outlined YOUR problem quite clearly in this post: people from other areas hunting where you like to take your clients. It has nothing to do with conservation or the health of the herd. What you've revealed is your disdain for hunters from the lower mainland.

Also, the "fact" that you're seeing 30 guys with 20 deer hanging is, in itself, indicative of a high success rate that only comes from a healthy deer herd with tonnes of sperm-filled bucks running around. 67% success in mule deer hunting is a terrific percentage, and shows that populations are very strong.

If you'd told us that camp of 30 guys had only a couple of bucks because all the deer have disappeared as you have stated in many posts, then you'd be credible on your original claim. But, crying that there are no deer, then posting that you've seen 30 lower mainlanders (who, as we all know, are "shitty" hunters compared to you wonderful local guides) with 20 bucks totally discredits your original claim.

A good bullshitter needs to keep track of his lies, lest he contradict them later. You're a BAD bullshitter Snowballs. And your motive to keep people out of "your" territory is as plain as the nose on your face.

Well fisher-price.... you're WRONG because I did not mention what year that was that I saw the group of hunters... and it doesn't matter where they are from... they could be from kamloops.. could be from williams lake.. it don't matter... This was an observation a number of years ago before the decline in deer numbers.. Maybe should should collect all the info before you slam someone next time. So maybe just maybe instead of being the dick that you have been on this site ... you could have asked "when I observed this" instead of assuming it was last deer season. No its not my guiding territory and I don't give a shit who hunts there ! Another one of your fine assumptions !!! No one will go where I go !

67% is what it probably used to be.. and those number don't mean shit ! I have never filled out a harvest questionnaire for deer.. EVER and I've killed a bunch of them !

[kootenayelkslayer]

No one will go where I go !


Well, you must truly be an amazing hunter!...:roll:

If we managed wildlife in BC based on you're type of hearsay and hunter observation, we'd probably have a mess on our hands. Just because some hunters spend a lot of time in field, doesn't mean they know exactly what's going on in terms of population dynamics.

[GoatGuy]

No its not my guiding territory and I don't give a shit who hunts there ! Another one of your fine assumptions !!! No one will go where I go !

67% is what it probably used to be.. and those number don't mean shit ! I have never filled out a harvest questionnaire for deer.. EVER and I've killed a bunch of them !

This certainly isn't the approach we want to wildlife management in BC.

You need good information to identify issues and identify the solutions. "[T]hose numbers don't meant shit" is not good information and doesn't really help anyone.

[Fisher-Dude]

Well fisher-price.... you're WRONG because I did not mention what year that was that I saw the group of hunters... and it doesn't matter where they are from... they could be from kamloops.. could be from williams lake.. it don't matter... This was an observation a number of years ago before the decline in deer numbers.. Maybe should should collect all the info before you slam someone next time. So maybe just maybe instead of being the dick that you have been on this site ... you could have asked "when I observed this" instead of assuming it was last deer season. No its not my guiding territory and I don't give a shit who hunts there ! Another one of your fine assumptions !!! No one will go where I go !

67% is what it probably used to be.. and those number don't mean shit ! I have never filled out a harvest questionnaire for deer.. EVER and I've killed a bunch of them !

Bull. Your original post was in the here and now. Anyone that read it knows that.

Keep on diggin' the hole, you're getting closer to where you'll ultimately end up for BSing the public and lobbying hunting opportunities away from BC families anyway.

[Fisher-Dude]

67% is what it probably used to be.. and those number don't mean shit ! I have never filled out a harvest questionnaire for deer.. EVER and I've killed a bunch of them !

Average mule deer success rate is 41% (1987 to 2006 inclusive) in BC.

By year:


1987 42%
1988 52%
1989 44%
1990 48%
1991 44%
1992 47%
1993 39%
1994 40%
1995 39%
1996 34%
1997 32%
1998 32%
1999 31%
2000 33%
2001 41%
2002 37%
2003 44%
2004 49%
2005 50%
2006 45%


It's as good or better now as it ever was, and getting better every year.

[todbartell]

1995 39%
1996 34%
1997 32%
1998 32%
1999 31%
2000 33%

haha....funny how the lowest success rates were in the years I shot most of my deer. Strange:-D

[Snowpatrol]

Still doesn't give us accurate harvest numbers and it never will... just face it fisher price

[KB90]

I have never filled out a harvest questionnaire for deer.. EVER and I've killed a bunch of them !

Just because you haven't filled out a questionnaire does not mean the numbers are wrong.

I'm pretty sure they account for that.

[Snowpatrol]

Bull. Your original post was in the here and now. Anyone that read it knows that.

Keep on diggin' the hole, you're getting closer to where you'll ultimately end up for BSing the public and lobbying hunting opportunities away from BC families anyway.

Haven't hunted there in over 2 years... get over it man ! don't try to make yourself look good by cutting others down ! It will never happen !

[Fisher-Dude]

Some have no idea about random sampling and confidence intervals. :rolleyes:

Dr Valerius Geist praised BC's harvest data collection system and accuracy as "among the best in North America, very good, very reliable" at the 2009 BCWF convention in Fernie.

[Snowpatrol]

Some have no idea about random sampling and confidence intervals. :rolleyes:

Dr Valerius Geist praised BC's harvest data collection system and accuracy as "among the best in North America, very good, very reliable" at the 2009 BCWF convention in Fernie.

Well if the doctor says it... wow it must be true ! I guess I'm just a dumb ass !

Enjoy !

[Gunner]

You do know who Valerius Geist is right?He doesn't have a clue....:rolleyes: Gunner

[dana]

What I find interesting is the trend that hunters look at a couple years of hard hunting and then jump to the simple conclusion that 'all the deer are gone'. Like I have said many many times on this site, 2010 was a tough friggin year. I hunted for 2 months straight with my kids and only saw a handful of deer in that timeframe. I had scouted for the 2 months straight before deer season started and had about the same results. Every local I talked to said the same thing, 'where'd the deer go?'. My response every time, they are in the thick crap, holed up and extremely noctural. 2009 was a pretty tough year too. Lots of locals didn't find their meat bucks that year either. So you put 2 and 2 together and suddenly the deer all died. 2008/2009 winter was pretty brutal. Lots of locals said the bucks took a shit kicking that winter. Me, being an avid shed hunter, pounding the winter range for 2 straight springs, I have not found the evidence that there was a mass winter kill like some want to jump too. Sure I've found the usual lionkill or wolf kill, but not mass amounts of dead deer. I like to pay attention to things year round, not just in season. So I watched the spring range to see if there was a lack of deer and what did I see, more deer than I have ever seen in almost 20 years of living here. They were everywhere in April, May and June and then suddenly they vanished come July. I hit the highcountry and low country and everywhere in between. I could find evidence of deer in all zones. Lots of tracks. Just nothing living in those tracks. So that told me the deer were in an extreme nocturnal pattern. Why? I think it might have been a combination of a lush summer with lots of rain but also lots of sunshine. The veg growth was incredible. And then there is the wolves. Everywhere I went I was seeing dog tracks. Didn't matter if it was the many drainages I was working or the many mountainsides I was scouting, I was seeing wolf sign. So put that together and the deer can remain safe in the comfort of the thick timber and still have high quality lush feed right where they are hiding without having to expose themselves in the open of alpine or cutblocks. So hunting a population of deer that are going to the extremes to stay low key, isn't an easy hunt now is it. But it is amazing how a $hitty season can turn into an amazing season in a very short timeframe. In one week in Nov we were able to kill 3 mature muley bucks, one of which was a freakin Giant. And we also happened to see several extremely large bucks that we will be hunting for next year. My post season scouting was well above average for the amount of trophy class deer I saw. And I've seen countless smaller bucks that were legal 4 points that survived the hunting season. It ain't a matter of jumping to the easy conclusions that the deer are all dead because your hunting season was tuff. It is a matter of changing things up and hunting differently and keep on pounding it with a 'never give up' attitude. I remember having the same kind of conditions back in the late 90's. Funny how there was this thing called El Nino and La Nina that happened during those tuff years too. :wink:

[6616]

I have never filled out a harvest questionnaire for deer.. EVER and I've killed a bunch of them !

Well if there's anything wrong with the system, you're certainly not doing anything to make it better by not reporting...!

Sounds like your proud of it too? ,,,,,and your a guide-outfitter??? ,,,the kind of guy Willie says are caretakers and stewards of the wildlife.....??????? What a joke...!

[Snowpatrol]

Well if there's anything wrong with the system, you're certainly not doing anything to make it better by not reporting...!

Sounds like your proud of it too? ,,,,,and your a guide-outfitter??? ,,,the kind of guy Willie says are caretakers and stewards of the wildlife.....??????? What a joke...!

MAybe we should start a poll on how many people that took deer in the past and didn't get a questionnaire ??? Like I said before.. the harvest numbers are an educated "GUESS" at best ! Care more about the wildlife than my own "HUNTER OPPORTUNITY" I can tell you that ! And where did I say I was an outfitter ???? I GUIDE.. learn how to read !

[bridger]

in some jurisdictions if you do not return the hunter harvest questionaire you cannot buy a tag the following year. Perhaps that is something we should install in bc.

[Sitkaspruce]

So Snowpatrol

If all the gov can come up with is a guess, what do YOU suggest they should do to get better numbers. And don't go spewing crap about more $$$$ should be put into better counts, as we all know that is not going to happen, so with the amount of $$$ the the MOE has, tell me how they can come up with a better guess?????

I am curious as to how you think you can make things better....

and you are not off to a good start by saying you have never filled in a questionnaire....which does help with the guessing...... if you have never received one, then maybe you should say that instead of leaving things hanging.

Cheers

SS

[CanuckShooter]

:(
So Snowpatrol

If all the gov can come up with is a guess, what do YOU suggest they should do to get better numbers. And don't go spewing crap about more $$$$ should be put into better counts, as we all know that is not going to happen, so with the amount of $$$ the the MOE has, tell me how they can come up with a better guess?????

I am curious as to how you think you can make things better....

and you are not off to a good start by saying you have never filled in a questionnaire....which does help with the guessing...... if you have never received one, then maybe you should say that instead of leaving things hanging.

Cheers

SS

They could put the questionnaire online...link it to HBC website...I haven't gotten a questionnaire in years....why not?? Don't I count.:confused:LOL

[Snowpatrol]

So Snowpatrol

If all the gov can come up with is a guess, what do YOU suggest they should do to get better numbers. And don't go spewing crap about more $$$$ should be put into better counts, as we all know that is not going to happen, so with the amount of $$$ the the MOE has, tell me how they can come up with a better guess?????

I am curious as to how you think you can make things better....

and you are not off to a good start by saying you have never filled in a questionnaire....which does help with the guessing...... if you have never received one, then maybe you should say that instead of leaving things hanging.

Cheers

SS

That bring up a very good point... all you guys assumed I HAVEN'T filled the ones out that I've got ! Not true... I fill out cougar, wolf, questionnaires as I receive them... I've never personally received a deer questionnaire ( i believe i mentioned that in a earlier post !) So one of my suggestions to getting better harvest data would be... what if we had to to a compulsory report when we shoot a deer as you have to do with a bobcat for example... not a compulsory inspection... a report.. could be as easy as fill out a form online telling MOE the date of kill and the M-U.. cat hunters have to do it.. why couldn't we do the same with deer.. I know not everyone would do it.. but it would be better than send out a couple questionnaires out and guessing at the rest ! As for counts in the field for population ??? I know MOE has their hands tied.. they are doing the best they can (I believe). More counts at the same time of day, on the same day as last year etc.. I don't think the counts are accurate ! If they think they are they're full of shit.. it would be impossible to count every deer from a chopper... Maybe listen to the guys that spend every day out there ! Ie... ranchers, guides, etc. We all know that places like the gang ranch are not as good as they were in the 70's and 80's... some people on here seem to want to argue that fact.. but they too, know its not the same ! They are just hung up on numbers from their desks ! That is all the point that I'm trying to get across here..

[Husky7mm]

[quote=horshur;858260]Snowpatrol.....it has been pre-ordained that the BCWF support maximum sustainable yield strategy for your hunting area as long as science says there is no conservation concern they wish to push the maximum hard.......and that means that things have and will change from what it once was.
they can say this with good conscience because there are some papers out that show hunter numbers are declining rapidly and that certain factors are to blame.....they also believe that if they cannot get the numbers back they will lose hunting altogether or at least some autonomy in decision making.
I take exception regarding what factors are actually to blame but that is my opinion.

Goat said it years ago on this forum..that hunters will have to sacrifice or give up stuff ...you will not have as good of hunting for mature deer as you once had. The BCWF wants this!)

Bingo! Not bad thing for hunting, just tougher for big buck hunting.

[Snowpatrol]

MAybe we should start a poll on how many people that took deer in the past and didn't get a questionnaire ??? Like I said before.. the harvest numbers are an educated "GUESS" at best ! Care more about the wildlife than my own "HUNTER OPPORTUNITY" I can tell you that ! And where did I say I was an outfitter ???? I GUIDE.. learn how to read !

This should have been a sign that I haven't received them, for all the smart asses out there !!!!!

[Husky7mm]

In time it won't matter much...because the recruitment strategy will not be successful because it doesn't actually address the real barriers nor could it anyway. The real barriers are outside our influence.

Please explain?


Also why is the name Ken Miller so familiar? Was he a writer? Wheres he from?

[Husky7mm]

You must be a bio as not many folks are familiar with that model

[kootenayelkslayer]

You must be a bio as not many folks are familiar with that model

The man knows what he's talking about for sure... I believe he's done alot of inventory work!

[BCrams]

An interesting read for those wishing to see how composition counts are done:

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wildlife/wsi/reports/4633_WSI_4633_RPT_2009MULEDEERCOMPOSITION.PDF

[kootenayelkslayer]

I don't think the counts are accurate ! If they think they are they're full of shit.. it would be impossible to count every deer from a chopper... Maybe listen to the guys that spend every day out there ! Ie... ranchers, guides, etc.

You should take a look through the paper BCRams just posted to get a better idea of how things are done, becasue it sounds like you need to brush up on your sampling techniques just a bit!

[6616]

That bring up a very good point... all you guys assumed I HAVEN'T filled the ones out that I've got ! Not true... I fill out cougar, wolf, questionnaires as I receive them... I've never personally received a deer questionnaire ( i believe i mentioned that in a earlier post !) So one of my suggestions to getting better harvest data would be... what if we had to to a compulsory report when we shoot a deer as you have to do with a bobcat for example... not a compulsory inspection... a report.. could be as easy as fill out a form online telling MOE the date of kill and the M-U.. cat hunters have to do it.. why couldn't we do the same with deer.. I know not everyone would do it.. but it would be better than send out a couple questionnaires out and guessing at the rest ! As for counts in the field for population ??? I know MOE has their hands tied.. they are doing the best they can (I believe). More counts at the same time of day, on the same day as last year etc.. I don't think the counts are accurate ! If they think they are they're full of shit.. it would be impossible to count every deer from a chopper... Maybe listen to the guys that spend every day out there ! Ie... ranchers, guides, etc. We all know that places like the gang ranch are not as good as they were in the 70's and 80's... some people on here seem to want to argue that fact.. but they too, know its not the same ! They are just hung up on numbers from their desks ! That is all the point that I'm trying to get across here..

Actually they don't need to send questionnaires to each and every hunter.

All they really need is a statistical sample size big enough to have a decent confidence interval, an I'm told questionnaire data has an 85% confidence interval which is probably good enough for generic management of GOS species, and it doesn't cost a fortune.

Of course if one doesn't believe in science, one won't bvelieve in statistical analysis either I guess....

[srupp]

hmmmm Ive hunted deer for many years in the Chilcotin...over 30 of em..

and I have hunted the GANG for deer and sheep..the last few years there have been tremedous #s of "deer" in the spring..resident and migratory..some groups #ing in the thousands...I have seen it...both from the ground and the air...some areas are close to carrying capacity??

I have hunted for big deer on occasion and have shot several over 275 pounds -300 pounds live weight and "reasonable" racks..seen some dandies some low down by the Fraser River and some very high..the most big deer sign was after big snows..its eems to me "imho" that it takes approx 30 " of snow to move the bucks.. less for does and fawns..

However I have seen deer on the same day..both high up and low down..with vastly different levels of snow..

what seems to make the difference is pressure from predators 2 legged and 4 legged..thes ebig bucks go to where they are not being pushed around..no matter where that is...I have seen 20 rigs drive right past where I have counted numerous big bucks in preceeding days..

Interesting when flying over the area early am and doing so during the hunting season seeing hunters out there and seeing where the deer are and where the big bucks are...different..they are where the pressure isnt..wheather 30" of snow or a skiff...and there will always be resident deer that wont move if not pushed..pressured....

srupp

[Jelvis]

Certain areas? What is the top ten of the " Certain Areas?"
Reduce this nonsense to some reality instead of a cat fight, a gun fight, a sword fight, a knife fight, I won't say brain fight lol, no one homey, lol.
Deer are where they are standing, they don't fly yet lol, rotfl, lol, trails, trails over the century carved into rock and thick shale, you got to luv it and live it, live the life you love and love the life you live. LOL.
Jelly Belly .. aka's Jelly Parsley .. Jelvis .. Jello .. Jellydonut .. JelloRamma .. JelloPudding ..MelloJello .. Jeloppy

[kootenayelkslayer]

Certain areas? What is the top ten of the " Certain Areas?"
Reduce this nonsense to some reality instead of a cat fight, a gun fight, a sword fight, a knife fight, I won't say brain fight lol, no one homey, lol.
Deer are where they are standing, they don't fly yet lol, rotfl, lol, trails, trails over the century carved into rock and thick shale, you got to luv it and live it, live the life you love and love the life you live. LOL.
Jelly Belly .. aka's Jelly Parsley .. Jelvis .. Jello .. Jellydonut .. JelloRamma .. JelloPudding ..MelloJello .. Jeloppy

That was a very helpful and constructive post...:roll:

[shadow1982]

Is it just me or is jelly making more sense then usual, i am understanding all of his posts...

thanks for all the info guys keep it coming

[CanuckShooter]

Do steroids result in mental instability?

Not to that degree.....usually instability to this degree is caused by 'huffing' various solvents.

[BCBear]

why don't they cut it in half 5a and 5b. the western portion of 5 and the eastern portion of 5

[jml11]

You should take a look through the paper BCRams just posted to get a better idea of how things are done, becasue it sounds like you need to brush up on your sampling techniques just a bit!

Definitely a few who could use some 'brushing up' on here...interesting thing is all of them run from the same crowd...at least you have some education to back up any of your claims and it probably helps you do your job as well. If guide-outfitters actually took the time time to learn even a little bit how wildife management works in BC instead of disregarding it entirely, it could go a long way in helping them lobby realistic solutions that are achievable instead of these outlandish claims about quotas, LEH and AAH that make no sense to anyone, especially the wildlife! We can only hope the upcoming generation of Guide-outfitters is more realistic as I've meet a couple newer outfitters and several guides who have recently graduated with degrees in Wildlife Management.

[GoatGuy]

You are absolutely right, but they don't need to count every deer if they are collecting composition data. You can tell a lot about the effect of hunter harvest just by the buck ratio. The variables collected for deer observations during surveys (forest cover, snow cover, group size, etc.) allow the bios to tell if the bucks and does had similar sightability, and if not, a sightability model is used to correct for the number of bucks, does and fawns that were likely missed. The end result is population ratios that are a lot more accurate and defensible than data you get from the ground.

So long as the composition flights aren't restricted solely to one chunk (ie high su or in the case of the cariboo grassland only), particularly post rut.

[GoatGuy]

That bring up a very good point... all you guys assumed I HAVEN'T filled the ones out that I've got ! Not true... I fill out cougar, wolf, questionnaires as I receive them... I've never personally received a deer questionnaire ( i believe i mentioned that in a earlier post !) So one of my suggestions to getting better harvest data would be... what if we had to to a compulsory report when we shoot a deer as you have to do with a bobcat for example... not a compulsory inspection... a report.. could be as easy as fill out a form online telling MOE the date of kill and the M-U.. cat hunters have to do it.. why couldn't we do the same with deer.. I know not everyone would do it.. but it would be better than send out a couple questionnaires out and guessing at the rest ! As for counts in the field for population ??? I know MOE has their hands tied.. they are doing the best they can (I believe). More counts at the same time of day, on the same day as last year etc.. I don't think the counts are accurate ! If they think they are they're full of shit.. it would be impossible to count every deer from a chopper... Maybe listen to the guys that spend every day out there ! Ie... ranchers, guides, etc. We all know that places like the gang ranch are not as good as they were in the 70's and 80's... some people on here seem to want to argue that fact.. but they too, know its not the same ! They are just hung up on numbers from their desks ! That is all the point that I'm trying to get across here..

Don't need to spend more time sampling hunters in places like the cariboo when it comes to hunter harvest. It's small populations and areas with low participation rates where you run into issues. CR or CI for mule deer bucks would be a tremendous waste of money.

Regardless, this has nothing to do with the status of deer in the Cariboo.

[GoatGuy]

:(

They could put the questionnaire online...link it to HBC website...I haven't gotten a questionnaire in years....why not?? Don't I count.:confused:LOL

Questionnaires will be available online this year.

Without a sampling model we are going to end up with bias and I still haven't seen how this is going to be addressed.

[kootenayelkslayer]

If guide-outfitters actually took the time time to learn even a little bit how wildife management works in BC instead of disregarding it entirely, it could go a long way in helping them lobby realistic solutions that are achievable instead of these outlandish claims about quotas, LEH and AAH that make no sense to anyone, especially the wildlife!

That sure would be nice! Not to say some outfitters don't have a realistic view on things, but a better understanding of wildlife management practices would benefit both sides involved, as I would imagine both lobbying groups would be able to see eye-to-eye more often.

[GoatGuy]

That sure would be nice! Not to say some outfitters don't have a realistic view on things, but a better understanding of wildlife management practices would benefit both sides involved, as I would imagine both lobbying groups would be able to see eye-to-eye more often.

Don't kid yourself. There are plenty that are up on things. The rumors about 14 stone's sheep being harvested in spatsizi the first week of the season came straight from some very smart outfitters. There are plenty of outfitters that worked as biologists at some point; they're the first ones pushing the fear and social agenda. That isn't due to a lack of education. Quite the opposite actually.:wink:

[BCBear]

Because it accomplishes nothing. Increased cost/headache of management with no benefit to wildlife.

Kirby

Yeah right, no moose season from Bella Coola to 100 mile makes no sense
(and yes i know this is a muley thread)

[CanuckShooter]

That's the problem, guys are arguing stuff when they have absolutely no idea whats going on.

Kirby

That is probably because what they are being told doesn't jive with what they are seeing in the field???

We stopped in 5-14 for 2 1/2 day hunt in november 09...have hunted there for over 25 years...saw 2 bucks, 2 does....not bad? On the drive out, basically from Bella Coola highway, west side of Fraser, thru moon ranch, across soda creek bridge to highway....not one fresh deer track in the fresh snow. I've never seen that in all the time we have hunted there.....I would have lost a serious amount of money on a bet if anyone had said you could drive that section and not see any fresh tracks. And yet the bios are saying the deer are thriving...something just doesn't jive???

[kootenayelkslayer]

Don't kid yourself. There are plenty that are up on things. The rumors about 14 stone's sheep being harvested in spatsizi the first week of the season came straight from some very smart outfitters. There are plenty of outfitters that worked as biologists at some point; they're the first ones pushing the fear and social agenda. That isn't due to a lack of education. Quite the opposite actually.:wink:

Well therein lies the problem. They're business and livelihood depends on getting the tags, so you're right, no matter how knowledgeable they are about current management techniques, the smart ones are still going to push for hard for what they want, even if it's contrary to what they know about wildlife management.

[Fisher-Dude]

That is probably because what they are being told doesn't jive with what they are seeing in the field???

We stopped in 5-14 for 2 1/2 day hunt in november 09...have hunted there for over 25 years...saw 2 bucks, 2 does....not bad? On the drive out, basically from Bella Coola highway, west side of Fraser, thru moon ranch, across soda creek bridge to highway....not one fresh deer track in the fresh snow. I've never seen that in all the time we have hunted there.....I would have lost a serious amount of money on a bet if anyone had said you could drive that section and not see any fresh tracks. And yet the bios are saying the deer are thriving...something just doesn't jive???

Yeah, well last fall I went to my usual hunting spot on a Thursday and barely saw a chipmunk, no deer. On the Friday, I went back to the same spot and saw 27 deer by 9:30 am and plunked a nice fat muley buck.

If I applied your model on Thursday, I'd say deer were extinct and the season should be closed immediately. If I applied your model on Friday, I'd say open does because we have a major over-population problem.

Using proper sampling and survey methods, these highs and lows are taken out of the equation and the REAL population/harvest numbers are determined. That's the problem with guys like you and snowflake, you're unwilling to read the literature posted by guys like BCRams, GG, Kirby, jml, etc and would rather live in a world of ignorance. I think you're afraid of having your preconceived notions dashed by factual information. For some people, pride can be a bitch to deal with.

Too bad, 'cause you aren't doing yourselves, wildlife, or the future of hunting any favours by staying in a knowledgeless state. :neutral:

[Jelvis]

Seeing no tracks in snow, now here's an example of some information that is relative.
ie .. How long since it snowed last?
..... How much did it snow?
..... Is it still snowing?
..... Many variables make for lots of information on statistics and facts to compare
..... Compared to what?
See how different ways people percieve things because there was no tracks
.. in the snow?
Jel .. Not judging but noticing information that is very general and personal perception
Not based on scientific study .. Properly done is time consuming, expensive and scientific.
Done by experienced highly qualified field people with many talents and skills
These folks have degrees from BC universities etc.
Jel .. Many have hunted certain areas for over forty years and can see year by year also.

[Husky7mm]

I think the correction factor if a little generous. Flying around in a chopper above approved winter range with snow all over it and seeing a few bucks then adding 2 to 4 X as much because you assume you missed them seems like a stretch. Maby what your seeing from the air is what is there and thats it. You know what they say about assume..... This was a kooteny survey mind you.
As for a place like the gang I was told litterly thousands more deer show up there after the hunt is over. They actually think the population is increasing there. I hunted there a few times. One time no snow or very little very few bucks. One time with four chains on and it was all we could do to get around to even glass and it was nuts. Great hunt lots of big buck sightings but to far to shoot, snow up to your nuts makes for a tough hike believe me we tried. It didnt work out but it could of and it was still a great hunt with great memories.

[CanuckShooter]

Yeah, well last fall I went to my usual hunting spot on a Thursday and barely saw a chipmunk, no deer. On the Friday, I went back to the same spot and saw 27 deer by 9:30 am and plunked a nice fat muley buck.

If I applied your model on Thursday, I'd say deer were extinct and the season should be closed immediately. If I applied your model on Friday, I'd say open does because we have a major over-population problem.

Using proper sampling and survey methods, these highs and lows are taken out of the equation and the REAL population/harvest numbers are determined. That's the problem with guys like you and snowflake, you're unwilling to read the literature posted by guys like BCRams, GG, Kirby, jml, etc and would rather live in a world of ignorance. I think you're afraid of having your preconceived notions dashed by factual information. For some people, pride can be a bitch to deal with.

Too bad, 'cause you aren't doing yourselves, wildlife, or the future of hunting any favours by staying in a knowledgeless state. :neutral:


Not in the least, just telling a story of what we experienced. Unlike some sheeple I'll question what the 'experts' are telling us.

Like "the HST will make prices drop"...see any of that yet??:mrgreen: Me neither.

[Fisher-Dude]

Did you read the article yet CS? If not, why?

[Gamebuster]

snowfool, er, I mean patrol...guys like you are funny...Jelly brings up a good point, what about the bios that spend a lot of their free time hunting as well? How are your field observations any better than theirs? plus they do the survey work.

[Jelvis]

No one wants to define an area that is personal to the hunter. They talk about oh yah the Gang and ah Willys Pond but no one wants to zero in on his or her spot over the past decades. Why? Pin points the place you hunt.
In general terms about some certain place only your friends and you don't go is just something over a beverage or two.
If you said MU 5-01 then it still big but it's divided into leh moose sections therefor making your area a target to hit by the fastest gunz in town all looking for your honey holyness. Mule deer are all the same, Rocky Mountain Mule Deer in BC
JP ... More Gun ...imho..lol..ca Rocky Mountain Mule Deer the Proto type of muley deers.
The biggest and strongest of all ... So he says, lol ...big ears like a mule ........... Bucks n Does ..
The MCleese Lakers the record breakerz ....Mule Deer Main Bag .. Moose also main run a way train it's insane.
Tatla coming at yah, 100 Mile .. Gang .. Lee's Corner Taseko Lakes .. Anahim Lake .. Chilly Cootin..
Riske Creek .. Quezznel .. Bow ron ron .. Lake .. PARK .. MU 5-16 .. Good Plastic bag for clothes twist tye ..
... put in another plastic bag facing the other way then add a third bag .. dry like a feather ..
Mosely Sapeye for some POP EYEZ on the Ba Hucks .. and on the ridges just north of Tatla Village MU 5-5
Upland bird hunting as well folks I suppose you like fishing too? .. Ducks n Grouse .. Gots it all Fish n Game
Lac La Hache MU 5-2 .. Spout .. without a doubt .. Kersley Rail You can hit the game trails Canim.Bridge MU 5-1

[Snowpatrol]

That is probably because what they are being told doesn't jive with what they are seeing in the field???

We stopped in 5-14 for 2 1/2 day hunt in november 09...have hunted there for over 25 years...saw 2 bucks, 2 does....not bad? On the drive out, basically from Bella Coola highway, west side of Fraser, thru moon ranch, across soda creek bridge to highway....not one fresh deer track in the fresh snow. I've never seen that in all the time we have hunted there.....I would have lost a serious amount of money on a bet if anyone had said you could drive that section and not see any fresh tracks. And yet the bios are saying the deer are thriving...something just doesn't jive???

Finally someone has observed the same thing as I have ! There are many more out there that have seen it as well they just won't admit it because they want all the "hunter opportunity"

[GoatGuy]

Finally someone has observed the same thing as I have ! There are many more out there that have seen it as well they just won't admit it because they want all the "hunter opportunity"

The best part of this thread is that your entire precept for this thread is that over-hunting has caused a decline in deer. There was never a question, the message is over-hunting with no belief in or support for science or wildlife management.

Funniest part is the cariboo has the most restrictive hunting seasons it has ever had and how does the hunting compare to the past? One would imagine that hunting would 'improve' (at least in your eyes) and that more restrictive regulations are not 'hunter opportunity'- they are actually the opposite of hunter opportunity.

So your message is we need restrictions because over-hunting has led to a decline in mule deer. However we have half the hunters and the most restrictive hunting seasons we've ever had. How does that make any sense and how does that have anything to do with hunter opportunity? If you were anywhere near correct with your ANY of your assertions youd be seeing more deer but your aren't. Why do you think that is?

[CanuckShooter]

Great idea to question. Another great idea is to become informed. Why don't you go back and start reading some of the reports that are published. Look at it, read it, question it. Ask Why did they survey that way? Then find where they Cite their references, and go read it.

If you want to question what your being told the first thing someone should do is do background homework.

So
Have you read literature reports from MOE?
Literature from BCWF and or Retired Biologist?
The survey method litearture?
Do you truly understand the correction factor modeling?
Do you understand how the Habitat modeling parameters work?
Have you read Mule deer management literature? Such as :Valerius Geist books or Mule deer Conservations Issues and Management?
US Mule deer Management literature?

If you can't say yes to 3 of those things there is no point continuing this discussion.

You'd be uninformed. If you cannot bring a logical resonable argument to the table to discuss then no point in being here. Your personal observations are just that, unquantifiable observations. Things like Time since snow fall, amount of snow fall, Temperature, Moon phase etc etc etc etc all come into play and in good science these variables are included. In your personal obervations they aren't. You have an the most random sampling possible. FD statement of Deer extinct one day, over populated the next is dead on example.





Thank you for stressing the point that if you don't follow all the scientific papers your just plain old stupid. While I don't see any point in arguing that point with one of the sheeple, I feel a need to address your disdain for a personal observation. My personal observations, in region 5-14, over a period of about 25 years include every phase of weather, heavy and light snowfall, changes in government, hunting openings and closures, different wind directions, differences in logging patterns, differences in visible predators.....differences in hunting pressure etc etc etc etc...so go ahead discount what individuals tell you because you would rather read what Valerie writes as the gospel that's OK..your probably collecting all of your hst savings by now too...or in other works individual observations CAN be added to the mix too you know.

[Fisher-Dude]

An interesting read for those wishing to see how composition counts are done:

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wildlife/wsi/reports/4633_WSI_4633_RPT_2009MULEDEERCOMPOSITION.PDF

Have you read this yet CS? If not, why?

[CanuckShooter]

Have you read this yet CS? If not, why?

I read some of it...why not more?...it's Reg. 4 stuff, I don't hunt there.

Lets try to be clear here...I am not disputing what they are doing and what the results are...I am just stating that in many instances my 'in the field' observations don't jive with them. BTW, when I observed a noticeable drop in 'viewed' deer and 'sign'....I attributed it to the main body of the deer herd migrating to a different area [just my guess]. I have also seen your scenario, no deer today~deer everywhere tomorrow, but I have never seen a total absence of tracks as I described earlier....so when I hear or read that bio's are saying the deer populations are on the rise there imagine my surprise.:-? I would really really like it to be so.

[Fisher-Dude]

Studies have determined that the region 5 deer herd has been expanding at ~15% per year for the past number of years.

[Whip]

5-10 years ago I hardly saw any wolf sign in our area and the game was plentiful. Maybe there was a lag as the wolf/predator population caught up to the prey populations??? We have seen an incredible amount of wolves, wolf sign and kills in the last 5 years as well as cougar sign. Also noticed a reduction in lambs, usually 5-7 ewes per lamb these days. Hunting pressure seems fairly constant, however I hear it is more of a gong show later in the season in the wintering grounds. This is just some observations from 2 weeks out of every year over a short time........just sayin....

[bighornbob]

CanuckShooter

You call us sheeple and question what the scientists (experts) are saying for what you have seen or what you have heard, that's fine. But let me ask you a question, if your child (I assume you have one by your picture) gets diagnosed with cancer (GOD Forbid) will you take them to childrens hospital in Vancouver to get treatment from the doctors (experts), using techniques that have been proven to help other kids around the world. Or do you sit at home and do nothing as thats what you feel (or your neighbor told you) would help your child?????

You have gotta realize that the "experts" dont usually pull this stuff out of their asses, they look at whats worked in other places and areas that have been doing it for years.

BHB

[CanuckShooter]

CanuckShooter

You call us sheeple and question what the scientists (experts) are saying for what you have seen or what you have heard, that's fine. But let me ask you a question, if your child (I assume you have one by your picture) gets diagnosed with cancer (GOD Forbid) will you take them to childrens hospital in Vancouver to get treatment from the doctors (experts), using techniques that have been proven to help other kids around the world. Or do you sit at home and do nothing as thats what you feel (or your neighbor told you) would help your child?????

You have gotta realize that the "experts" dont usually pull this stuff out of their asses, they look at whats worked in other places and areas that have been doing it for years.

BHB

BHB>>and the experts are not always correct. They told us that some species of fish were extinct and then some were caught in nets. Some experts says that opening veins in peoples necks will do good things for people suffering from MS..other experts say it's unproven and dangerous. One expert diagnosed a member of my family as having ALS, the treatments almost killed her before another expert diagnosed it as thyroid problems.....the sheeple are the ones that believe that because someone has credentials they speak the gospel.

[Snowpatrol]

YES ONE OTHER PERSON!!! That totally justifies your position! Sweet, congrats what a strong argument you have, bring it to MOE and see what they say.

The only one that will admit it.. the others can't because of their position with the BCWF ! lol No one has answered my question still... can you honestly say that deer hunting in places like the gang are as good as in the 70's and 80's ????? NO

[bighornbob]

BHB>>and the experts are not always correct. They told us that some species of fish were extinct and then some were caught in nets. Some experts says that opening veins in peoples necks will do good things for people suffering from MS..other experts say it's unproven and dangerous. One expert diagnosed a member of my family as having ALS, the treatments almost killed her before another expert diagnosed it as thyroid problems.....the sheeple are the ones that believe that because someone has credentials they speak the gospel.


Still did not answer the question, would you take your kid to the Cancer clinic in Vancouver if your doctor told you too??? or would you wait and see what someone else says???

In your example its an expert finding a problem with what another expert said. I will go with that. Becuase sure mistakes do happen but you have to look at what others have done in similar situations or in this case, what have other places done to see what the health of a mule deer herd is doing.

So I will ask you another question, what expert or professional says the Region 5 Mule deer are in trouble or disagrees with the experts that say there is not a problem???

BHB

[CanuckShooter]

Still did not answer the question, would you take your kid to the Cancer clinic in Vancouver if your doctor told you too??? or would you wait and see what someone else says???

In your example its an expert finding a problem with what another expert said. I will go with that. Becuase sure mistakes do happen but you have to look at what others have done in similar situations or in this case, what have other places done to see what the health of a mule deer herd is doing.

So I will ask you another question, what expert or professional says the Region 5 Mule deer are in trouble or disagrees with the experts that say there is not a problem???

BHB

Your missing the point.....the experts are not always right. AND I am not saying they are wrong in regards to what they are saying about Region 5...all I said was what I see doesn't jive with what they are saying....I actually hope they are underestimating things because FD says they are claiming a 15% increase...good, hunting will be better!!

[CanuckShooter]

never said that, perhaps you have feelings of inadequacy?

Still no point in discussing it. Start reading.

Kirby

Of course I do.....when faced with intelligence to the level your displaying here...talk to the hand.

[CanuckShooter]

If you don't agree with what your seeing and you don't believe the reports do the background reading to strengthen your arguments. If you want I'll lend you some of my books to read (generally interesting stuff regardless of management implications).

If you can step up and say:
"______________" is why I believe the reports are inaccurate

rather than:

I don't like it, it doesn't "jive" with what I see.

Bring an strong argument don't simply dismiss something because you can't understand it, do the reading, get informed and make an educated decision.

Kirby

The reports MAY be accurate....I only hunt a small portion of Region5....in the area I hunted last..in 2009..there was a very very noticeable difference in sign left in the fresh snow from what I had seen in the previous 24 years. Find me a report that is about that and I would welcome reading it, as it would provide far more pertinent reading than the reg 4 documents FD provided for reading material.

[bighornbob]

Your missing the point.....the experts are not always right. AND I am not saying they are wrong in regards to what they are saying about Region 5...all I said was what I see doesn't jive with what they are saying....I actually hope they are underestimating things because FD says they are claiming a 15% increase...good, hunting will be better!!


Actually I am not missing the point, I am trying to prove mine!!!!

Still have not answered my first question?

Or my second one??

BHB

[CanuckShooter]

Actually I am not missing the point, I am trying to prove mine!!!!

Still have not answered my first question?

Or my second one??

BHB
#1. Still did not answer the question, would you take your kid to the Cancer clinic in Vancouver if your doctor told you too???

Yes, would be pretty stupid not too...are you asking if I am stupid??

#2. So I will ask you another question, what expert or professional says the Region 5 Mule deer are in trouble or disagrees with the experts that say there is not a problem???

Not a single expert is refuting what they are saying to the best of my knowledge.

We had a layperson say they think the deer populations are down in a specific area of Region 5...the Experts say deer populations are up in Region 5....is there some logical reason you are so sure both of these opinions cannot be right?? Your turn to answer the question. :-D

[bighornbob]

#1. Still did not answer the question, would you take your kid to the Cancer clinic in Vancouver if your doctor told you too???

Yes, would be pretty stupid not too...are you asking if I am stupid??

No not saying you are stupid, but when it comes to your childs health you dont question the experts, but for the mule deer you are??? Now who is the sheepal. BBBBAAAAAA. get in line:-D

#2. So I will ask you another question, what expert or professional says the Region 5 Mule deer are in trouble or disagrees with the experts that say there is not a problem???

Not a single expert is refuting what they are saying to the best of my knowledge.

We had a layperson say they think the deer populations are down in a specific area of Region 5...the Experts say deer populations are up in Region 5....is there some logical reason you are so sure both of these opinions cannot be right?? Your turn to answer the question. :-D

No I am not sure, and I actually beleive you when you say the numbers were down in the area you hunted. But you have been questioning/doubting what the experts are saying i.e. 20:100 buck to doe ratio or the actual numbers the experts are putting out there.



The area I hunted last year was also a poor year, did not see a antler in 5 different days of hunting. Do you see me saying there is a problem with the deer herd. No I sock it up to something I cant explain. Great habitat, mild winter, doubt there's a predator problem, does the area have pressure (you bet). Still I am waiting to see what the expert says for the whole region. Maybe the deer have moved for whatever reason. Maybe where there were low counts last year, there were high counts this year. We dont know why animals do what they do or hunting would be a lot easier.

For example look at the sockeye return this year. Unseen like this in 100 years. Why, even the experts dont really have a reason why taking into consideration warming water temperature and loss of habitat.

BHB

[Gateholio]

The only one that will admit it.. the others can't because of their position with the BCWF ! lol No one has answered my question still... can you honestly say that deer hunting in places like the gang are as good as in the 70's and 80's ????? NO

What is your definition of "good?"

[CanuckShooter]

The area I hunted last year was also a poor year, did not see a antler in 5 different days of hunting. Do you see me saying there is a problem with the deer herd. No I sock it up to something I cant explain. Great habitat, mild winter, doubt there's a predator problem, does the area have pressure (you bet). Still I am waiting to see what the expert says for the whole region. Maybe the deer have moved for whatever reason. Maybe where there were low counts last year, there were high counts this year. We dont know why animals do what they do or hunting would be a lot easier.

For example look at the sockeye return this year. Unseen like this in 100 years. Why, even the experts dont really have a reason why taking into consideration warming water temperature and loss of habitat.

BHB

What the experts were wrong, the runs they projected were out to lunch??....imagine that.:mrgreen: Point well made. The last time there was just a stop in...I saw two bucks in two and one half days of hunting...not bad really considering one was a cranker 4 pt that out smarted me....and a fair bit of sign in the heavy timber indicative of nocturnal behaviour. It was that drive out that really stunned me.....never imagined that we would ever be able to travel that portion of road and see zero tracks...:confused:

[Fisher-Dude]

The only one that will admit it.. the others can't because of their position with the BCWF ! lol No one has answered my question still... can you honestly say that deer hunting in places like the gang are as good as in the 70's and 80's ????? NO


Days per kill in the 80s in the Gang/Churn are 14.1. Days per kill 2000 - 2006 are 14.2. So, yes, it takes an extra hour or two to kill your deer now on a 3 week hunt. :mrgreen: Of course, the 80s were generally any buck, none of this 4 point stuff. :wink:

So now what? The hunting is as good, or probably better now even with 4 point seasons and the same days/kill number between the 80s and the 2000s. What bullshit can you spew now that your theory is proven 100% incorrect?

[Goliath]

I think as hunters we all want better wildlife management and hense, better hunting opportunities. I get it.

But what's up with all the pissing contests? If you've got a problem, turn the other cheek OR send a PM. Unfortunately there's a few out there that are turning this site into a high school popularity contest.

Please don't plug up this site with useless posts beating your chest. Some of us want to read and/or participate in "real" discussions.

[Jelvis]

Clear cuts and beetle kill logging changes the way a deer adjust to new things, but the first season after logging an area out is when most get plugged, new forest, no, no forest, cut right down like a moon scape .....
Sometime mamma nature moves the main trail over or dispands a family group for exploring reasons for the deer to forage and expand into new dna, new blood, new genes, different family so mating and new birth can take place.
Many diverse reasons for changes that an average hunter would not even come near to see in a three day weekend is so mine ute that it's not even a hic-up worth.
If you asked a hunter whose hunted in the same spots year after year, same bat time same bat station over five decades he or she would see a trend or two over the years.
Jelpper .. Good deer hunting in the southern part of MU 5-03
MU 5-04 .. Fair to Good, deer and moose hunting .. Hanceville Southwest ..
Lee's Corner is on Hwy 20, 57 miles (91k) west of Williams lake .. The Big Creek/Fletcher Lake/Taseko road turns south here, forking 3.5 miles along with left fork to Big creek and a right fork a logging road running down to Taseko River and Lakes. Deer and Moose? Is the Pope Catholic?

[Snowpatrol]

Days per kill in the 80s in the Gang/Churn are 14.1. Days per kill 2000 - 2006 are 14.2. So, yes, it takes an extra hour or two to kill your deer now on a 3 week hunt. :mrgreen: Of course, the 80s were generally any buck, none of this 4 point stuff. :wink:

So now what? The hunting is as good, or probably better now even with 4 point seasons and the same days/kill number between the 80s and the 2000s. What bullshit can you spew now that your theory is proven 100% incorrect?

So why did they change the seasons and put in place a rut closure all together if he population has increased ?? STILL Not buying it ! Post all the useless numbers you want fisher price.

[frenchbar]

[quote=Jelvis;859812]Clear cuts and beetle kill logging changes the way a deer adjust to new things, but the first season after logging an area out is when most get plugged, new forest, no, no forest, cut right down like a moon scape .....
Sometime mamma nature moves the main trail over or dispands a family group for exploring reasons for the deer to forage and expand into new dna, new blood, new genes, different family so mating and new birth can take place.
Many diverse reasons for changes that an average hunter would not even come near to see in a three day weekend is so mine ute that it's not even a hic-up worth.
If you asked a hunter whose hunted in the same spots year after year, same bat time same bat station over five decades he or she would see a trend or two over the years.

Good call jellytrend... some hunters just cant adapt to change like the animals

[Gateholio]

Let's not get into childish name calling, please....

[sawmill]

Sounds like there is going to be a trial relocation program to get rid of some of the mulies in town here.Those puppies would be easy to hunt,just set up with a big bag of garbage as bait.
Any deer relocated to the bush from here won`t last a month,they are so used to dogs and people a ******ed 3 legged coyote could wipe them out.

[sawmill]

Oops,not ret@rded,I meant differently abled,or "special"

[CanuckShooter]

Sounds like there is going to be a trial relocation program to get rid of some of the mulies in town here.Those puppies would be easy to hunt,just set up with a big bag of garbage as bait.
Any deer relocated to the bush from here won`t last a month,they are so used to dogs and people a ******ed 3 legged coyote could wipe them out.


Ship them to my place..the wife would feed them and keep them safe...:mrgreen::cry:

[Jelvis]

Some mule deer in MU 5-01 were changed around when the roads and cabins and then homes were built years ago, they adapt to changes.
Drive off Hwy 97 from 70 Mile on Green Lake road, Hwy 24 through Lone Butte, the Eightythree road and, from 100 Mile House, the Canim lake system of roads also but if you want real good mule deer it's in the southeast section of 5-01 still fair deer in the rest of the unit too with moose.
Jel .. 5-01 .. Canim Lake - Bridge Lake .. Fair moose and deer ..
If you like good deer and moose and like horseback riding or hiking try
Access from Hwy 20 - 35 km west of Anahim Lake.
.. mostly hike-ins or horse back into good mule deer and moose hunting.
This is MU 5-10 & 5-11 Tweedsmuir Park Southern Half .. Mule Deer .. the odd Grizz n goat always check, you know, the BC Reg's
B4 hunting this wonderful region ..

[Snowpatrol]

So why did they change the seasons and put in place a rut closure all together if he population has increased ?? STILL Not buying it ! Post all the useless numbers you want fisher price.

Still waiting.. you got some numbers there to.. answer the question.. why did the experts change the seasons if there wasn't a problem ???????

[Jelvis]

Mu 5-13 has had it's ups and downs with mulies in the east Chicotin because of the plethora of access roads north and northwest of Alexis Creek. This used to be the bestest deer hunting in the Chilcotin is now so so but STILL, lovely country to hunt however there are still mule deer around.
You can run in from Alexis Creek on several roads and the northern part of 5-13 via Nazko road from Quesnel. Or Beaver Dam Creek on Rosita-Meldrun Forest Road, check distance from centerline of road-no hunting within one quarter mile brothers and sisters.
See MU 5-13 was pounded by road access and logged and changed from the best deer to so so, see the reason above.
Jel ( Like Johnny Cash On Black ) Alexis Creek .. Nasko road .. Beaver Dam Creek .. Please No Freaks .

[KevinB]

Thank you for stressing the point that if you don't follow all the scientific papers your just plain old stupid.


CS, there's a big difference between being stupid, and being ignorant about a certain subject. I don't believe anyone has called you stupid.

I'm pretty good with computers, but I'll admit I'm mostly ignorant of how they work. I'm smart enough not to argue with a computer systems engineer about how to make it run more efficiently until I did a whole lot of self-education on the subject, because although there's a chance they may be wrong, the odds are they wouldn't be, and the odds are I'd be way off the mark with my wild guessing.

I get the feeling you're just stirring the pot anyways. Go hunt some coyotes or rabbits or something.:wink:

[Jelvis]

MU 5-12 in the West Chilcotin has access from Hwy 20 by system of roads east from Anahim Lake, also by a road north from Anahim Lake along the Dean River, then crank it east past Eliguk Lake.
From Chilanko Forks on Hwy 20 more roads penetrating lol the southeastern portion.
Try just east of Red bone, in MU 5-13 a road running northwest connects with Chilanko Forks road. Big bone mule ba hucks oh man, lol,
Pretty good deer and moose hunting, if you want supreme hunting go into the north portion access is difficult tho.
Cariboo hoo check the reg's .. for current season .. All terrain vee hic alz are a NO NO .. Negatory ..

[CanuckShooter]

Days per kill in the 80s in the Gang/Churn are 14.1. Days per kill 2000 - 2006 are 14.2. So, yes, it takes an extra hour or two to kill your deer now on a 3 week hunt. :mrgreen: Of course, the 80s were generally any buck, none of this 4 point stuff. :wink:

So now what? The hunting is as good, or probably better now even with 4 point seasons and the same days/kill number between the 80s and the 2000s. What bullshit can you spew now that your theory is proven 100% incorrect?


14.2 days per kill.....that is pretty slow hunting.....where is the data for the last four seasons??

[Fisher-Dude]

Slow hunting? Again, you need to do some reading. Region 5 is way better than the rest of BC, where the average over the 20 year period was 20.3 days per kill. Not one year in 20 came as low as 14.2 provincially.

That's the problem dealing with people that have preconceived notions and no desire to educate themselves. Those of us who lobby for opportunity in areas like region 5 where we've done comparisons to other regions, and found mule deer to be under utilized find considerable frustration dealing with the ignorant. The ignorant don't know the facts, but are the first to scream NO! They are the first to say "pretty slow hunting." They are the first to speak against opportunity that will help ensure hunting has a future in BC.

[CanuckShooter]

Slow hunting? Again, you need to do some reading. Region 5 is way better than the rest of BC, where the average over the 20 year period was 20.3 days per kill. Not one year in 20 came as low as 14.2 provincially.

That's the problem dealing with people that have preconceived notions and no desire to educate themselves. Those of us who lobby for opportunity in areas like region 5 where we've done comparisons to other regions, and found mule deer to be under utilized find considerable frustration dealing with the ignorant. The ignorant don't know the facts, but are the first to scream NO! They are the first to say "pretty slow hunting." They are the first to speak against opportunity that will help ensure hunting has a future in BC.


Wow....talk about high blood pressure!!:mrgreen:

We took the kids on a mule deer hunt last fall, in 7a, came home with 4 deer in 6 days....this is normal, it's good hunting. If we had to hunt 20.3 days on average [meaning sometimes you spend way more] FOR EACH KILL........I'd say the hunting was pretty slow!!

Now, back to the question...where are the numbers for the last 4 seasons?

[Fisher-Dude]

Don't have them on this 'puter. You'll have to go ask for them yourself. And 2010 isn't even compiled yet, all I have is some CI data so far.

You've obviously lost sight of what hunting is all about. If you can't wack and stack 4 deer in 6 days, hunting sucks. Sorry, but I don't think we can find enough game or opportunity to hunt it in BC to keep you happy. :-|

[CanuckShooter]

Don't have them on this 'puter. You'll have to go ask for them yourself. And 2010 isn't even compiled yet, all I have is some CI data so far.

You've obviously lost sight of what hunting is all about. If you can't wack and stack 4 deer in 6 days, hunting sucks. Sorry, but I don't think we can find enough game or opportunity to hunt it in BC to keep you happy. :-|


Hunting never sucks!!! Some trips are slower than others, but never so slow as to be 14 days on average to tag a deer. Hunting never sucks!!! I love hunting, and I am good at it.......:mrgreen::mrgreen:.......you need some pointers?


Starting a poll on how many days to harvest...come and give us your take!!!

[Snowpatrol]

Slow hunting? Again, you need to do some reading. Region 5 is way better than the rest of BC, where the average over the 20 year period was 20.3 days per kill. Not one year in 20 came as low as 14.2 provincially.

That's the problem dealing with people that have preconceived notions and no desire to educate themselves. Those of us who lobby for opportunity in areas like region 5 where we've done comparisons to other regions, and found mule deer to be under utilized find considerable frustration dealing with the ignorant. The ignorant don't know the facts, but are the first to scream NO! They are the first to say "pretty slow hunting." They are the first to speak against opportunity that will help ensure hunting has a future in BC.

Ya.. region 5 is the best in BC !! Right.. does that number include all the couple thousand doe's that are taken.. because that would bring that average down lower ?? Ie: if you can't shoot a doe in a few days you should quit hunting !

[Snowpatrol]

really? Are you sure you want the answer? And if I give it to you will you believe it? Or you just gonna say its Bull shit?

Kirby

wouldn't ask a question for fun... lets hear it ! I guess why you are saying that is because you're gonna come out and say the outfitters did it ! Ya.. ok !

[dana]

Snow patrol,
Do you know why the amount of hunters have been flocking to the Gang? Hmm, might have something to do with the buck Allen Shearer killed with Lancasters eh? With a small area like that people got Gold Fever. People who had never hunted it before were suddenly drawn to it. And guess what? The bucks actually adapted rather quickly. I always thought it was quite amazing to glass up 40-50 does in front of me and only the odd little buck. I then started glassing the timber edges and normally within the last 15 mins of legal light, suddenly I was seeing bucks. They cling to that timber and know they are a target if they step out in the open. I have watched unharrassed bucks run full out to cross an opening only to stop at the timber edge and relax. Soooo, who caused the deer to change their patterns. An outfitter that actually did kill a monster only to plaster it in every magazine to drum up business. Of course that is going to draw residents to the area as well. :) If you hunted the area before and after the Gold Rush, of course you will see a difference in the amount of bucks you were seeing. Doesn't mean they ain't there though. They have just adapted and hunters who want to see success need to adapt as well. Funny story, one morning I was sitting on a high knob in Churn glassing deer. I had seen numerous 4 points already that morning, just nothing I was wanting. I hear a noise behind me and here comes a hunter. He asks me what I am doing? I said glassin'. He looked puzzled and asked me what that thing I was looking through was. I told him it was a spotting scope. He said do you see much through that. I then went on to tell him how I had seen several 4 points already that morning. The guy was shocked. His group had been hunting for an entire week and they had yet to see a 4 piont. I point down to a large flat and say how only minutes before I watched a 4 point run across the flat and dive into a little pocked of aspen all because there was a hunter in an orange hat that spooked him. The guy says, my partner has an orange hat and he's down there. He then calls the guy on a hand held radio and asks him if he saw a 4 point run in front of him. The answer back was no. Then the guy leaves and I can hear him muttering as he walks off that I was full of $hit. The guy was decked out in the latest gear but had no binos and had never seen a spotter before. Now, what do ya think his perception of the area given the lack of 4 points he was seeing? And what was my perception of the area given the large amounts of 4 points I was seeing. We were both there at the same time and hunting the same place, yet 2 complete different perceptions.

[Jelvis]

MU 5-03 west of the Fraser, from Dog Creek the Gang Ranch road drops down, down to cross the Fraser. A gazetted road runs through the ranch, connects with the 2200 road and on into Riske Creek, take a peek Zeke.
It's relatively close to the Lower Strangeland.
The best deer hunting is in the southern part of MU 5-3, Dash, Churn and along the river breaks Jake just go down towards French Bar Creek way where 5-3 meets Region 3 POW!
Jelly Belly Donutz .. the Gang's all here .. deer everywhere after migration from big snow up higher ..
Thousands of mule deer mule deer hiding all along the river breaks in the ravines .. and on up into forest.
Plus the most eye pleasing, eye popping mule deer topography with habitat any hunter would squirm in the truck heading in, just to see that grassland will get your mo-jo workin .. be ready to have some fun experience.

[dana]

MU 5-03 west of the Fraser, from Dog Creek the Gang Ranch road drops down, down to cross the Fraser. A gazetted road runs through the ranch, connects with the 2200 road and on into Riske Creek, take a peek Zeke.
It's relatively close to the Lower Strangeland.
The best deer hunting is in the southern part of MU 5-3, Dash, Churn and along the river breaks Jake just go down towards French Bar Creek way where 5-3 meets Region 3 POW!
Jelly Belly Donutz .. the Gang's all here .. deer everywhere after migration from big snow up higher ..
Thousands of mule deer mule deer hiding all along the river breaks in the ravines .. and on up into forest.
Plus the most eye pleasing, eye popping mule deer topography with habitat any hunter would squirm in the truck heading in, just to see that grassland will get your mo-jo workin .. be ready to have some fun experience.

Jelvis,
It is the Holy Grail, Mule Deer Heaven, the Land of the GIANT MONSTERS like this one.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/LancasterBuck.jpg

[Husky7mm]

:biggrin:Grin Kinda like what happened in your neck of the woods when everyone saw what your crew was killin:razz: You got to love multi media:wink:

[dana]

Yup, everyone and their dog figures that there are 180 class deer behind every tree in Clearwater. The reality hits hard when they get here just like it does when they hit the Fraser. Sure people luck into big bucks every year but to get them consistantly, there is far more than luck involved. Countless threads on HBC have been typed by people who think there is some magical potion that will get them big bucks. Very few actually want to take the advice given to get the job done though. Why??? Because it requires a ton of HARD WORK!

[Husky7mm]

For sure but successful or not it still fills up the country with hunters and alot of any form of legal bucks get to pay the price.

[bc cooker]

Yeah, well last fall I went to my usual hunting spot on a Thursday and barely saw a chipmunk, no deer. On the Friday, I went back to the same spot and saw 27 deer by 9:30 am and plunked a nice fat muley buck.

If I applied your model on Thursday, I'd say deer were extinct and the season should be closed immediately. If I applied your model on Friday, I'd say open does because we have a major over-population problem.

Using proper sampling and survey methods, these highs and lows are taken out of the equation and the REAL population/harvest numbers are determined. That's the problem with guys like you and snowflake, you're unwilling to read the literature posted by guys like BCRams, GG, Kirby, jml, etc and would rather live in a world of ignorance. I think you're afraid of having your preconceived notions dashed by factual information. For some people, pride can be a bitch to deal with.

Too bad, 'cause you aren't doing yourselves, wildlife, or the future of hunting any favours by staying in a knowledgeless state. :neutral:

Well said FD!!! Statistics and how they are interpreted may seem simple but not so. To a game manager or population bio.....yes.....that is what they have studied, but from what I have read so far, many are not statisticians!!! This is not to insult anyone but there does need to be some kind of a background. Stats are not the answer to everything all the time. They are indicators.

[dana]

Husky,
Yea and a lot of the local business' reap the benefits of out-of-town hunters chasing that elusive gold. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. It would be rather hypocritical to bitch about out-of-towners hunting here when I become the out-of-towner hunting other areas of the province. You don't see me bitching about the lack of deer in my area or the saying the place is shot out like some of the Region 5 boys on this site are doing. It has been 2 seasons now since they closed down the Region 5 rut making Region 3 the only game in town. Many Region 5 hunters have been hitting Region 3 during that timeframe. That means a lot of bucks have matured in Region 5 the last couple of years with very little pressure. Shouldn't that make for better big buck huntin'?

[Fisher-Dude]

For sure but successful or not it still fills up the country with hunters and alot of any form of legal bucks get to pay the price.

Harvest across all age classes is the ideal model for growing a healthy herd of mule deer, and allows maximum harvest and the most large deer in the herd as a result. Why do you think it's bad?

[Husky7mm]

I'd think its bad if it works for everyone I just dont like peaks and valleys. I'd love it if people said there are too many mule deer, kind of like a the elk and whities around the ek.

[Jelvis]

Open ridges and grassy meadow land begins around Tatla Lake mule deer provide the best hunting.
Logging roads around Tatla makes it easier to reach out into moose and the tuff mule deer on the open timber ridges with grassy meadows you'd be nutz not to try it once in your hunting life lol .. Tatla Tattle Tales ..
Jelly tattlin on Tatla
MU 5-5 Tatla Lake .. The Chilko-Tsuniah road turns south from Hwy 20, 134 km west of Williams Lake 84 miles, marking the eastern boundary of 5-5.
Some deer hunting along this road. 50 miles (80 Klix) beyond this turnoff the Eagle Lake turn-off runs south into 5-5, some deer hunting.
Want fair deer hunting then take the Tatlyoko-Bluff Lake road which turns south insight of the village of Tatla Lake. Take the right fork on Bluff Lake road, good deer hunting on the ridges (behind) Mosley Creek and Sapeye Lake.
You want good mule deer hunting, on ridges go just north of Tatla village.
Look I see ridges just north of Tatla village those got to be the one's jelly was talkin bout, hey STOP!
Good deer hunting on the ridges just north of Tatla village ...........................hunting muley START planning
Jel .. "Looky approved this message." Don't be a Sapeye you, .................... I'll tattle on yah NOW!
Tatla .. Tatla .. Tatla .. 5-5 .. Chilko-Tsuniah road .. just north of Tatla village .... Tatla Tale$ .. GO! .. hunting

[GoatGuy]

Ya.. region 5 is the best in BC !! Right.. does that number include all the couple thousand doe's that are taken.. because that would bring that average down lower ?? Ie: if you can't shoot a doe in a few days you should quit hunting !

Here we go. Your motivation here isn't the deer, it's about you. You want to see more deer and fewer hunters. No care for wildlife management, science or the deer and their habitat.

Any kind of science you argue with or come up with some nimrod comment about people's hunting skills.

We can circle the wagons all day long, your motivation is self-interest. What a waste of a thread.

[Snowpatrol]

Open ridges and grassy meadow land begins around Tatla Lake mule deer provide the best hunting.
Logging roads around Tatla makes it easier to reach out into moose and the tuff mule deer on the open timber ridges with grassy meadows you'd be nutz not to try it once in your hunting life lol .. Tatla Tattle Tales ..
Jelly tattlin on Tatla
MU 5-5 Tatla Lake .. The Chilko-Tsuniah road turns south from Hwy 20, 134 km west of Williams Lake 84 miles, marking the eastern boundary of 5-5.
Some deer hunting along this road. 50 miles (80 Klix) beyond this turnoff the Eagle Lake turn-off runs south into 5-5, some deer hunting.
Want fair deer hunting then take the Tatlyoko-Bluff Lake road which turns south insight of the village of Tatla Lake. Take the right fork on Bluff Lake road, good deer hunting on the ridges (behind) Mosley Creek and Sapeye Lake.
You want good mule deer hunting, on ridges go just north of Tatla village.
Look I see ridges just north of Tatla village those got to be the one's jelly was talkin bout, hey STOP!
Good deer hunting on the ridges just north of Tatla village ...........................hunting muley START planning
Jel .. "Looky approved this message." Don't be a Sapeye you, .................... I'll tattle on yah ..
Tatla .. Tatla .. Tatla .. 5-5 .. Chilko-Tsuniah road .. just north of Tatla village .... Tatla Tale$ .. GO! .. hunting

Jelvis ......... you have the funniest post around dude ! Awesome... the only laughs I get from this site are from your posts !

Dana.. you do have some good points ! I have hunted that area for many many many years.. I know what it takes to kill good bucks there... I see people all the time not seeing deer... never mind the crankers. however.. I can assure you, it isn't the same as it once was.. thats the only point I'm trying to get across to the hard heads... I hunted it way before Al Shear killed his first buck there, and the 5 bucks that he has killed there after. It definitely isn't no region 3 anymore. Yes there are deer there.. sometimes you see lots.. sometimes you don't. but on an overall picture... it isn't the same.. these guys can throw all the numbers at it they want... It ISN't the same as the 70's and early 80's !

[Snowpatrol]

Harvest across all age classes is the ideal model for growing a healthy herd of mule deer, and allows maximum harvest and the most large deer in the herd as a result. Why do you think it's bad?

Still haven't answered my question ! Do the numbers of hours hunted and the number of deer harvested include the hundreds of doe's that are killed on LEH ??

[Snowpatrol]

Here we go. Your motivation here isn't the deer, it's about you. You want to see more deer and fewer hunters. No care for wildlife management, science or the deer and their habitat.

Any kind of science you argue with or come up with some nimrod comment about people's hunting skills.

We can circle the wagons all day long, your motivation is self-interest. What a waste of a thread.

Talk about a waste.. you're a waste of space on the thread ! Its not about me.. It is about the deer and the BCWF trying to kill them all for hunter opportunity ! Quit belittling everything I say to make yourself look like a hero.. You aren't all that ! Go goat hunting if you're the goat guy ! POS

[Jelvis]

I'm thinking everyone should try hard to understand no one is perfect in wild life counting or predicting population numbers.
Pure science without some psuedo just ain't going to work or pure psuedo with out some science ain't going to work either.
Hit and miss guessing against a pro statician in an office with just the facts mam.
Jel .. It ain't brain surgery ok lol, it's deer and deer are important to lots of things.
Let's argue and fight but let's try to come to a reasonable theory that tho can't be proven right now, could open the thoughts to better management of all wild life and fish.
I went to classes to learn, lot's, some me and other guys and others were women in some .. one class
.. was me and 10 women .. You got to lighten up, they went in for the facts too, I went in for the figures

[dana]

Jelvis ......... you have the funniest post around dude ! Awesome... the only laughs I get from this site are from your posts !

Dana.. you do have some good points ! I have hunted that area for many many many years.. I know what it takes to kill good bucks there... I see people all the time not seeing deer... never mind the crankers. however.. I can assure you, it isn't the same as it once was.. thats the only point I'm trying to get across to the hard heads... I hunted it way before Al Shear killed his first buck there, and the 5 bucks that he has killed there after. It definitely isn't no region 3 anymore. Yes there are deer there.. sometimes you see lots.. sometimes you don't. but on an overall picture... it isn't the same.. these guys can throw all the numbers at it they want... It ISN't the same as the 70's and early 80's !

Snowpatrol,
No place in this province is the same as it was in the 70's and early 80's. Nature changes and if you don't want to be left behind, you need to change too. I'm sure you can attest to the fact that we don't have near as cold or hard of winters as we did in the 70's. That country is as classic winter range as you can find in this province. When was the last time it burned? Some of that sage is as old as the early European settlements. There has been over 100 years of ranching in that country beating to pulp that classic range. Deer go where the food is good. And the food changes. The mid-elevation fir produces far better winter feed than that overgrazed grassland. In the 70's there was extensive predator control as the ranchers had a vested intrest in seeing them dead. Poison was still being used and very few people from the Lower Mainland even knew the place existed so there was no mass protests against killing wolves. The list goes on and on and on. Things change. Jelly already mentioned one of the biggest changes as of late, the Mountain Pine Beetle and the big cuts that followed to try to halt the invasion. Those big cuts changed patterns. And they changed the feed. A big clearcut is like a big forest fire. The amount of good deer eats are tremendous. Why migrate all the way down into that overgrazed grassland country when you can stay on the plateau and eat good. The winters are certainly not going to push them that low. Sooo, what do ya do? Live in the past and long for the days of hundreds of deer in the grasslands with your pick of mature bucks with the noses up does asses, or live in the here and now and figure out where and when the big bucks are? I can tell ya some of those big fires would be my focus. That's just me though. I can assure you there are other areas of the Chilcotin that don't see near as much pressure that you can have vast wilderness areas all to your self. I've hunted them. They might be another place for you to start relearning big bucks in your Region. I can also attest to mass changes here in Region 3. I've been living in this place for 20 years now and I don't hunt the same as I used to. I've had areas that once were good hunting grow up so much I can't see into them anymore. I have had entire road systems grow up in alder so bad I can't drive to where I used to get out and hike. I have seen blocks I've layed out get logged, be awesome for hunting and then grow up to never see a deer there again. I am always looking for new areas to hunt and change things up on a yearly basis. I remember the 70's and early 80's as a kid in the Okanagan. Hunting there sucked. You'd be lucky to see a few bucks in an entire year. Now, the Okanagan is producing more monsters than any other Region. Again, things change. You gotta get with it and change too. No use about bitching about how it's not like it used to be. Time to make the Good Ol' Days the Here and Now.

[Jelvis]

Dana your last post was very well written and some real thought put into it. I think that format displays schooling with experience because it shows.
I think your on to something. Yes it has changed since the 70's was eye opening.
JP .. Good report

[GoatGuy]

Talk about a waste.. you're a waste of space on the thread ! Its not about me.. It is about the deer and the BCWF trying to kill them all for hunter opportunity ! Quit belittling everything I say to make yourself look like a hero.. You aren't all that ! Go goat hunting if you're the goat guy ! POS

It's very simple. If you want more deer take care of the habitat.

If you're on the ostrich program and you want to stick your head in the ground keep complaining about hunting.

You've got half the hunters and the most restrictive regulations they have ever had in the cariboo. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that hunting is not the issue that is front and center for mule deer in BC.

[Snowpatrol]

It's very simple. If you want more deer take care of the habitat.

If you're on the ostrich program and you want to stick your head in the ground keep complaining about hunting.

You've got half the hunters and the most restrictive regulations they have ever had in the cariboo. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that hunting is not the issue that is front and center for mule deer in BC.

Those changes just happened the the past 2 years.. before they searched as to what regulations to implement ! Thats why in the past 5-8 yrs there has been many changes in the seasons.. They are searching for something that works !! Apparently something isn't working or they wouldn't be changing it !!!! I'm definitely not complaining about hunting.. never have.. I love to hunt... I love to see animals... go back to my original post and read it.... then ask yourself if I'm complaining.. there has been a lot of good points in this thread that I have not thought about lately .. mostly by Dana in his last one. Maybe the grassland have been over grazed in the past and now the deer are seeking other parts to live... I also pointed out in my first post about the predators, pine beetle, winters, logging etc... I also see what happens there in different times of the year as I don't live all that far away.. and if you have seen what I've seen you maybe would start questioning things yourself...

Dana.. last post was very well written !

[GoatGuy]

Those changes just happened the the past 2 years.. before they searched as to what regulations to implement ! Thats why in the past 5-8 yrs there has been many changes in the seasons.. They are searching for something that works !! Apparently something isn't working or they wouldn't be changing it !!!! I'm definitely not complaining about hunting.. never have.. I love to hunt... I love to see animals... go back to my original post and read it.... then ask yourself if I'm complaining.. there has been a lot of good points in this thread that I have not thought about lately .. mostly by Dana in his last one. Maybe the grassland have been over grazed in the past and now the deer are seeking other parts to live... I also pointed out in my first post about the predators, pine beetle, winters, logging etc... I also see what happens there in different times of the year as I don't live all that far away.. and if you have seen what I've seen you maybe would start questioning things yourself...

Dana.. last post was very well written !

The hunting regulations have been changed because outfitters wanted more easy big bucks. They are social without any guided or concerted research. This is not about conservation and you will not find a biologist or wildlife manager that will tell you any different.

Those deer live in a fire maintained ecosystem. When was the last time that country burned?

[Snowpatrol]

The hunting regulations have been changed because outfitters wanted more easy big bucks. They are social without any guided or concerted research. This is not about conservation and you will not find a biologist or wildlife manager that will tell you any different.

Those deer live in a fire maintained ecosystem. When was the last time that country burned?

I don't think just the outfitters could get the seasons changed that often.... back and forth.. the outfitters would have never wanted it to a any buck season all through Nov. except for the last 10 days.. Anyways.. you always want the outfitter battle in your posts.. not interested !

Can't even answer that question.. it burned a long long time ago I'll tell ya that !! The only thing that they burn now is slash piles !

[dana]

Those changes just happened the the past 2 years.. before they searched as to what regulations to implement ! Thats why in the past 5-8 yrs there has been many changes in the seasons.. They are searching for something that works !! Apparently something isn't working or they wouldn't be changing it !!!! I'm definitely not complaining about hunting.. never have.. I love to hunt... I love to see animals... go back to my original post and read it.... then ask yourself if I'm complaining.. there has been a lot of good points in this thread that I have not thought about lately .. mostly by Dana in his last one. Maybe the grassland have been over grazed in the past and now the deer are seeking other parts to live... I also pointed out in my first post about the predators, pine beetle, winters, logging etc... I also see what happens there in different times of the year as I don't live all that far away.. and if you have seen what I've seen you maybe would start questioning things yourself...

Dana.. last post was very well written !

I'm with ya when it comes to being frustrated with the changes in Region 5. I personally don't understand what they are trying to do there. While some on this site make the jump to them trying to appease the outfitters, I personally don't buy that. Shutting down the season from Nov 11-20th does not help any outfitters. You are just taking away the best time for them to get their clients deer. All they have accomplished by making that change is screwing over Region 3 which is now the only hunt available in the southern Interior during the peak of the rut. They were suposed to align the seasons and they couldn't get er done. No one was willing to do it and the only one with balls was Doug Jury. All the southern regions needed to do was align there seasons to be exactly the same as Region 3 and all their so-called over crowding problems would have disappeared. So what we are left with is more of the same. Now the masses hit Region 8's closure, jump to Region 3 the next day and then jump to Region 5 for their last week. I haven't been to Churn the last few years, but I betcha the hunting pressure was still there wasn't it. They just delayed it by 10 days.

[Snowpatrol]

I'm with ya when it comes to being frustrated with the changes in Region 5. I personally don't understand what they are trying to do there. While some on this site make the jump to them trying to appease the outfitters, I personally don't buy that. Shutting down the season from Nov 11-20th does not help any outfitters. You are just taking away the best time for them to get their clients deer. All they have accomplished by making that change is screwing over Region 3 which is now the only hunt available in the southern Interior during the peak of the rut. They were suposed to align the seasons and they couldn't get er done. No one was willing to do it and the only one with balls was Doug Jury. All the southern regions needed to do was align there seasons to be exactly the same as Region 3 and all their so-called over crowding problems would have disappeared. So what we are left with is more of the same. Now the masses hit Region 8's closure, jump to Region 3 the next day and then jump to Region 5 for their last week. I haven't been to Churn the last few years, but I betcha the hunting pressure was still there wasn't it. They just delayed it by 10 days.

100% agree with ya there Dana.. Been telling everyone that has anything to do with it for years to align the season with region 3 ! All the hunters just seem to go from one any buck season to the next around the province. And I agree with you in your thinking of the rut closure.. what outfitter in region 5 fought for that ????? If there is one that did, I'd like to know who it was ??

[BCrams]

Regarding the Region 5 rut closure. I've said it in the past and I could be dead wrong but do you think they will bring back the rut hunt as a GOS 4 pt season or do you think it will only come back as a LEH rut hunt?? Who benefits ;) With the frequent changes the last few years, who's to say this isn't just another ploy when they bring it back...... LEH or the 4 pt GOS .... I'm hoping I'm dead wrong on this assumption and LEH does not happen.

Personally I don't have trouble finding bucks in Region 5, including those areas from Farwell through to Empire. Can they do more to enhance the habitat? (i.e., burns) Sure! There's more than a few spots along the Fraser River that could use fire enhancement (grassland ecosystem restoration burns)....the positive spin off from these burns and increasing the overall health of the habitat is beneficial but still won't really benefit those guys trying to find bucks they couldn't find before :)

Regarding the 70's and 80's with twice the hunters. Did they have 4 point restrictions and the like?

[GoatGuy]

I don't think just the outfitters could get the seasons changed that often.... back and forth.. the outfitters would have never wanted it to a any buck season all through Nov. except for the last 10 days.. Anyways.. you always want the outfitter battle in your posts.. not interested !

Can't even answer that question.. it burned a long long time ago I'll tell ya that !! The only thing that they burn now is slash piles !

The outfitters in the cariboo have been complaining about the lack of 'trophy' bucks since moose went leh. It's in all the regs proposals. There's lots of documentation.

You will not find a biologist/researcher/manager in the world who will tell you the hunting seasons in the cariboo have negatively affected the deer.

You last statement says it all. You have no idea what kind of ecosystem those deer live in or how to increase the deer population. This is why habitat protection, wildlife and hunting are going the way of the dodo in BC.

[Jelvis]

A big unit is MU 5-2 east of the Fraser just north of 70 Mile House on Hwy 97 and up to Quesnel.
100 Mile east from Exeter
Dog Creek-Williams Lake road has roads off it that can be pritty dang good huntin
Bonus: moose also
Jell hah matic .....moose and the mule deer live here ....

[Snowpatrol]

Regarding the Region 5 rut closure. I've said it in the past and I could be dead wrong but do you think they will bring back the rut hunt as a GOS 4 pt season or do you think it will only come back as a LEH rut hunt?? Who benefits ;) With the frequent changes the last few years, who's to say this isn't just another ploy when they bring it back...... LEH or the 4 pt GOS .... I'm hoping I'm dead wrong on this assumption and LEH does not happen.

Personally I don't have trouble finding bucks in Region 5, including those areas from Farwell through to Empire. Can they do more to enhance the habitat? (i.e., burns) Sure! There's more than a few spots along the Fraser River that could use fire enhancement (grassland ecosystem restoration burns)....the positive spin off from these burns and increasing the overall health of the habitat is beneficial but still won't really benefit those guys trying to find bucks they couldn't find before :)

Regarding the 70's and 80's with twice the hunters. Did they have 4 point restrictions and the like?

Almost anyone can find a buck in this area... it just won't be big ! Small 4 pts don't interest me or anyone I hunt with. There are very few class 4 bucks in this area. Its stated in all these numbers out there. There sure used to be. Dana showed us what was taken in 98.... Never to see anything remotely close to it since !

I hope you're wrong too.. I don't really want it to go to LEH. I think with the way the seasons have jumped around it may.... but we saw it go from 4 pts to an any buck season and now its back to 4 pts again.. so anything is possible ! A 4 pt season works for region 3 ?? why would it be any different ! More people go there.. More than likely ! If it does go to LEH... There will be some great bucks in there again I believe. JMO

[Jelvis]

Once the government changes something as big as the ten day no shooting in 5 for mules they ain't going to change that back for a long time so I wouldn't get your hopes up to high for that, once changed now, it will be a long long time coming back sorry mho, it's a big ship to turn.
Jelly ( Not so Fast! ) From my experience once changed your going to wait a long time 2 come back

[GoatGuy]

Almost anyone can find a buck in this area... it just won't be big ! Small 4 pts don't interest me or anyone I hunt with. There are very few class 4 bucks in this area. Its stated in all these numbers out there. There sure used to be. Dana showed us what was taken in 98.... Never to see anything remotely close to it since !

I hope you're wrong too.. I don't really want it to go to LEH. I think with the way the seasons have jumped around it may.... but we saw it go from 4 pts to an any buck season and now its back to 4 pts again.. so anything is possible ! A 4 pt season works for region 3 ?? why would it be any different ! More people go there.. More than likely ! If it does go to LEH... There will be some great bucks in there again I believe. JMO
Again, nothing to do with deer, everything to so with the fact you want to shoot big bucks.
Always find it disgusting when anti-hunters ignore science in favor of the agenda.

Not sure why hunters condemn anti-hunters and then take the same approach. There is no difference- all about 'me' first, science second and wildlife a distant third.

[kootenayelkslayer]

It is about the deer and the BCWF trying to kill them all for hunter opportunity !

Ya, I'm sure killing all the deer is a high priority of the BCWF :roll: . That's just a ridiculous statement in many ways.


There are very few class 4 bucks in this area.

Is this proveable? Or is this just another one of your 'observations' that carry very little significance. Maybe you're just looking in the wrong spots. Like many others have stated already, things have changed alot since the '70s, so you may not see big bucks hanging around the rangeland anymore, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

[dana]

Almost anyone can find a buck in this area... it just won't be big ! Small 4 pts don't interest me or anyone I hunt with. There are very few class 4 bucks in this area. Its stated in all these numbers out there. There sure used to be. Dana showed us what was taken in 98.... Never to see anything remotely close to it since !

I hope you're wrong too.. I don't really want it to go to LEH. I think with the way the seasons have jumped around it may.... but we saw it go from 4 pts to an any buck season and now its back to 4 pts again.. so anything is possible ! A 4 pt season works for region 3 ?? why would it be any different ! More people go there.. More than likely ! If it does go to LEH... There will be some great bucks in there again I believe. JMO

IMO that buck killed in 98 was more luck than anything. I've read the magazine stories. They didn't have a clue that buck was in there and were actually going after another deer when they encountered that buck. I don't know if you remember back to the winter of 98/99 it broke a $hitload of records for the amount of snow. I remember ski hills having to shut down because of tooo much snow, as high as the ski lifts. I remember doing forestry that winter in over 25 feet of snow. Soooo, maybe just maybe that big boy knew what was coming and he headed down early that year. Animals are pretty keen to know the weather that is coming.
As for lack of older class bucks, I can tell ya from experience, they don't get that big very often. Everyone thinks Clearwater is a hotspot right? Well I know of only 1 local buck that ever was killed the size of Allen Shearer's 98 Gang buck (230-240 class) and that buck was killed in the early 90's. I've seen pictures of a couple local bucks from the 20's that were in the 220 class. Sooo, nope these bucks don't come around very often. The average buck, given age and good eats, will max out in the 170 class. I haven't had a subscription to Trophy Hunter Magazine for quite some time but Lancasters used to have a story in that magazine in every issue. When they had a mule deer story the bulk of the time it was one of Allen Shearer's bucks. And after his 98 giant, the bulk of the deer he killed were in that 170-180 range, which is actually great hunting. I don't know if he still hunts with Lancaster's but he has gone on to several other states and killed some absolute giants, one of which was on the last Muley Crazy DVD. That is what money allows a person to do.
A good portion of the deer on the Gang are migratory and some come from a long long ways away. Taseko, Big and Dash and Jelly's list go's on and on. That is big country for a monster to hide in. Lots of highcountry and lots of timber too. It could take a serious winter like 98/99 to force those bucks that low. And 98/99 was more a throw back to the average winters of the 60's and 70's.

As for LEH, I can guarentee ya we are sunk as residents if muley bucks go to LEH. I have family members that have applied for 15 years for a local muley doe tag to never have been draw. That is the joy of our LEH system. The luck of the draw. You could end up sitting on the sidelines waiting and waiting and waiting for your chance to hunt. And why??? Not because we have a population issue, but because we have a preceived 'big buck' issue from a small select few people. If someone thinks LEH will fix things, they are on glue. LEH won't cause the mature bucks to change patterns and suddenly show up on degraded winter range now will it? If they are planning a rut LEH it will do nothing but create a cascade of LEH across the entire province. Don't think for once that it will only be limited to a small area like the Gang. Nope, if they tried it, it would be only a couple of years and the entire southern interior would be LEH for bucks. And a good chance a year or 2 after that, the entire North would be swallowed up by the LEH bug as well. And that scares the $hit out of me. All because a select few can't find big bucks for their clients. That is where I take an issue with the outfitters. If they hunted their asses off like my friends and I, they could be acheiving the exact same success, but they aren't willing to do that are they? And if you think mule deer is their only target, you better get you head out of your ass. If mule deer GOS falls, so will every other species on GOS. Do you think they don't want to restrict the resident houndsmen? LEH mountain lion is definately in the cards ain't it? A domino effect. Welcome to hunting in BC.

[CanuckShooter]

Almost anyone can find a buck in this area... it just won't be big ! Small 4 pts don't interest me or anyone I hunt with. There are very few class 4 bucks in this area. Its stated in all these numbers out there. There sure used to be. Dana showed us what was taken in 98.... Never to see anything remotely close to it since !

I hope you're wrong too.. I don't really want it to go to LEH. I think with the way the seasons have jumped around it may.... but we saw it go from 4 pts to an any buck season and now its back to 4 pts again.. so anything is possible ! A 4 pt season works for region 3 ?? why would it be any different ! More people go there.. More than likely ! If it does go to LEH... There will be some great bucks in there again I believe. JMO


Going LEH has nothing to do with big bucks except where the guides can see them floating in front of their eyes $$ !!!! There are always great bucks around if you look hard enough.

[Sitkaspruce]

Almost anyone can find a buck in this area... it just won't be big ! Small 4 pts don't interest me or anyone I hunt with. There are very few class 4 bucks in this area. Its stated in all these numbers out there. There sure used to be. Dana showed us what was taken in 98.... Never to see anything remotely close to it since !

I hope you're wrong too.. I don't really want it to go to LEH. I think with the way the seasons have jumped around it may.... but we saw it go from 4 pts to an any buck season and now its back to 4 pts again.. so anything is possible ! A 4 pt season works for region 3 ?? why would it be any different ! More people go there.. More than likely ! If it does go to LEH... There will be some great bucks in there again I believe. JMO

Snowpatrol

You are saying that the area is not like the 70-80's, there is very few deer there as compared to those golden days, yet you say that almost anyone can find a buck in that area, but it will not be big. So are you now speaking for BC hunters or yourself when it comes to deer hunting??? You say that there is lots of bucks (which contradicts your earlier posts) but they are not the BC book deer that hunters in BC want to kill......says you.

So what is it, are there lots of 4 pt bucks there that do not score the magic 175+, or is there simple very few deer there????

I am confused by your original and follow up posts as compared to your last one......

Cheers

SS

[GoatGuy]

Snowpatrol

You are saying that the area is not like the 70-80's, there is very few deer there as compared to those golden days, yet you say that almost anyone can find a buck in that area, but it will not be big. So are you now speaking for BC hunters or yourself when it comes to deer hunting??? You say that there is lots of bucks (which contradicts your earlier posts) but they are not the BC book deer that hunters in BC want to kill......says you.

So what is it, are there lots of 4 pt bucks there that do not score the magic 175+, or is there simple very few deer there????

I am confused by your original and follow up posts as compared to your last one......

Cheers

SS

The agenda's coming out, that's all.

[frenchbar]

The agenda's coming out, that's all.

Hes all over the place in his posts ...but its DAM clear what he wants:twisted:

[BCrams]

Almost anyone can find a buck in this area... it just won't be big ! Small 4 pts don't interest me or anyone I hunt with. There are very few class 4 bucks in this area. Its stated in all these numbers out there. There sure used to be. Dana showed us what was taken in 98.... Never to see anything remotely close to it since !

I hope you're wrong too.. I don't really want it to go to LEH. I think with the way the seasons have jumped around it may.... but we saw it go from 4 pts to an any buck season and now its back to 4 pts again.. so anything is possible ! A 4 pt season works for region 3 ?? why would it be any different ! More people go there.. More than likely ! If it does go to LEH... There will be some great bucks in there again I believe. JMO

Snowpatrol - Your ignorance and true thoughts run strong here. Did you really give any serious thought to what Dana said or anyone else said in earlier posts??

Your true agenda is that you believe LEH will produce big bucks and that is what you want. LEH is not going to do that for you or any resident hunter. The only thing LEH will do is have less resident hunters in those areas so the GO can drive around with his client on a quality hunt with no residents to be seen.

How do you know there are few class mature bucks?? Who told these bucks they're supposed to be walzing around the grasslands so the guys in the helicopter can see them? They're not being seen because they're in the timber at the time of surveys. The bucks I'm talking about are not your little basket racked bucks but nice 150-170 bucks. Don't give me the BS line there's supposed to be 180+ bucks running the hills because that isn't true anywhere in BC and that threshold is tough to get no matter what and very very very few people will ever shoot anything above 180.

There's one little ridge down there I like to check and on any given day during the November hunting season, there's usually 2, 3 sometimes 4 bucks up to 175". Its a 1.5 km hike down a steep timbered canyon and up to reach but they're there all the time away from the hunting pressure. I'm surprised the outfitter doesn't know about it. It would be a ridge where the outfit could take a nice buck off every year.

The quality bucks are there ... you just aren't looking in the right places for them. I know they exist ;) Just a couple years ago within spitting distance of the 'grasslands' a friend found a typical shed if matched that would go around 200" ...... You and your cronies just aren't adapting and hunting hard for these big boys. These bucks aren't stupid.

I hunted that area before 98 and afterwards. That late season of 98 was incredible ... the snows from the high country pushed bucks from the plateau / headwaters down low. We saw a couple giants that we couldn't get the drop on. I know for a fact, most years those big bucks are up on the plateau / headwaters until well after the hunting season.

I flew some of the headwaters country a few years ago near the end of hunting season and got lucky seeing a couple monster mule deer still at tree line on a wind swept ridge.....I'm pretty sure if the snow depths were there .... they'd end up somewhere along the lower Churn where you're driving around trying to catch one in the grasslands.



Again, nothing to do with deer, everything to so with the fact you want to shoot big bucks.

There is no difference- all about 'me' first, science second and wildlife a distant third.

This sums you up snowpatrol.




Is this proveable? Or is this just another one of your 'observations' that carry very little significance. Maybe you're just looking in the wrong spots. Like many others have stated already, things have changed alot since the '70s, so you may not see big bucks hanging around the rangeland anymore, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

Snow is just set in his old ways? I'm starting to wonder what he considers to be a big buck? What he expects for the grassland hunting? A lot of these bucks are in the timber and timber pockets ... not in the open where he want to see them.




As for lack of older class bucks, I can tell ya from experience, they don't get that big very often. Everyone thinks Clearwater is a hotspot right? Well I know of only 1 local buck that ever was killed the size of Allen Shearer's 98 Gang buck (230-240 class) and that buck was killed in the early 90's. I've seen pictures of a couple local bucks from the 20's that were in the 220 class. Sooo, nope these bucks don't come around very often. The average buck, given age and good eats, will max out in the 170 class. I haven't had a subscription to Trophy Hunter Magazine for quite some time but Lancasters used to have a story in that magazine in every issue. When they had a mule deer story the bulk of the time it was one of Allen Shearer's bucks. And after his 98 giant, the bulk of the deer he killed were in that 170-180 range, which is actually great hunting. I don't know if he still hunts with Lancaster's but he has gone on to several other states and killed some absolute giants, one of which was on the last Muley Crazy DVD. That is what money allows a person to do.
A good portion of the deer on the Gang are migratory and some come from a long long ways away. Taseko, Big and Dash and Jelly's list go's on and on. That is big country for a monster to hide in. Lots of highcountry and lots of timber too. It could take a serious winter like 98/99 to force those bucks that low. And 98/99 was more a throw back to the average winters of the 60's and 70's.

Dana - snowpatrol seems to be thinking these big bucks should be stotting around the sagebrush / grasslands for the taking and that LEH is the answer. :rolleyes:

[Snowpatrol]

Again, nothing to do with deer, everything to so with the fact you want to shoot big bucks.
Always find it disgusting when anti-hunters ignore science in favor of the agenda.

Not sure why hunters condemn anti-hunters and then take the same approach. There is no difference- all about 'me' first, science second and wildlife a distant third.

There ya go again... You got a problem with me ??? GFY

[Snowpatrol]

Ya, I'm sure killing all the deer is a high priority of the BCWF :roll: . That's just a ridiculous statement in many ways.



Is this proveable? Or is this just another one of your 'observations' that carry very little significance. Maybe you're just looking in the wrong spots. Like many others have stated already, things have changed alot since the '70s, so you may not see big bucks hanging around the rangeland anymore, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

Very few class 4 bucks have been stated in all the BS number FD has given us.. its come out in many of MOE flights, there is a known problem.. this is why they have changed the seasons so many times ! Read between the lines dude.. instead of calling me a useless hunter !

[BCrams]

Very few class 4 bucks have been stated in all the BS number FD has given us.. its come out in many of MOE flights, there is a known problem.. this is why they have changed the seasons so many times ! Read between the lines dude.. instead of calling me a useless hunter !

Tell me they were able to see bucks utilizing D'Fir timberstands at the time of winter surveys or the thick stuff where the large bucks are recovering from the rut or bucks that are using different habitat than the grasslands ;)

[dana]

Snowpatrol,
Do you know what the flight surveys for Region 3 produce for mature bucks? None! Why? Because it is impossible to survey from the air given that the deer are in timber not grassland. Even the little bit of grassland we've got in this region holds very little deer in the winter? Why? Because it's degraded as $hit! Go to Kamloops and go shed hunting in the grasslands. You won't find much. But hit the big fir knobs above the grasslands, and you can have 20-30, or if you hike enough, 50 shed days. I personally know the areas gets cleaned out yearly by shed hounds, so the bulk of those sheds are new. Timbered winter range is not conducive to flying now is it? Sooo, how do you say that Region 5 is any different? I've shed hunted that ground too. The bulk of my big sheds from 5 came from the timber, not from the grassland. Finding sheds off of 2 different bucks scoring between 190-200 inches in one casual weekend of camping and sheddin' in not too shabby IMO. Finding 50 sheds in a couple of hours is also not too shabby. ;)

[Snowpatrol]

Tell me they were able to see bucks utilizing D'Fir timberstands at the time of winter surveys or the thick stuff where the large bucks are recovering from the rut or bucks that are using different habitat than the grasslands ;)

So you believe the numbers they come up with for deer is accurate, but now you say they can't see the big bucks.. hummmmm ! The Lancasters and their crew know every ridge in that country.. They also run cats there all winter. You don't think they know your special ridge.. guess again. I hunt from high timber stands in the high country up there to the river breaks.. I hike my as off.. so if you or anyone else on this thread thinks I'm driving around in my truck expecting to see a 180 buck you got your head up your ass. You think I have hounds because I'm lazy ??? You run your ass off behind hound for 5 months of the year... you think I'm afraid to hike a couple ridges looking for deer... Wake up !

[mark]

Very few class 4 bucks have been stated in all the BS number FD has given us.. its come out in many of MOE flights, there is a known problem.. this is why they have changed the seasons so many times ! Read between the lines dude.. instead of calling me a useless hunter !

SP Ive been silently following along here....in your initial post you correctly stated "some areas get pounded hard...others barely touched"
I have a saying about game....they either get "educated or exterminated"
With increased hunter pressure that happens!
10 years ago one could drift the river and shoot a 4 point buck from a boat in any given day....now-adays you see several boats per day, and few if any bucks! Same as the pounded areas!

What about the barely touched areas???? Maybe the class 4 bucks are all hanging there?
Ive hunted the grassland river breaks for sheep in some remote areas only accessible by boat, as well some easier spots....to find a shed antler in the sagebrush is pretty rare! (No quality food there)

Also as an avid shed hunter, the class 4 antlers are found on high elevation places under big timber! (NO way a helicopter is gonna see them)

I dont think theres a major problem, just that things have changed a little since the 70"s!

Just my observations, food for thought! :neutral:

[dana]

Snowpatrol,
How much time do you spend scouting for big muleys? That includes sitting behind the spotter in the high country and low country from July till Sept opener. That also includes pounding ground from April till June pickin up sheds to identify target bucks. That also includes sitting behind a spotter from Dec 1 through till they shed out in Late Jan-Mid Feb. If you are spending a ton of time chasing tail in the winter, are you seeing much for deer in that timber? Probably not eh, since the hounds run through it ahead of you.

[GoatGuy]

Very few class 4 bucks have been stated in all the BS number FD has given us.. its come out in many of MOE flights, there is a known problem.. this is why they have changed the seasons so many times ! Read between the lines dude.. instead of calling me a useless hunter !

I see, so you didn't believe the science before, but now you'd like to cherry pick parts of the survey that suit your agenda?

And the parts you pick are the parts that have nothing to do with sustainability or conservation.

Really bothers me when hunters play the 'conservation card' when it's really not about conservation. Like I said "me first", deer last.

[dana]

Sooo I was thinking back to the last time Region 3 had a major regulation change to the mule deer season. Last one I recall was in 94 when the 4 point season was extended from Nov 30 to Dec 10th. So that is 17 years of the most liberal mule deer season in the entire province. And yet with no change we consistantly kick out monsters every year. In the last 10 years my buddies and I have killed 11 bucks in Region 3 over that 175 mark, 7 of which in the 190-205 range. We are just regular joe weekend warriors. Nothing special about us other than we all have a passion for muleys and have nothing better to do with our spare time than scout, shed hunt and hunt. Soooo, tell me again how we can success like we do in a Region with the most liberal muley seasons coupled with high hunting pressure because of the conservative seasons in the rest of the southern interior? Tell me what is sooo different about here versus Region 5? Why can Region 3 go 17 years of consistancy and liberal seasons and no other region can do the same? Are the deer in Region 3 'special'? Do they magically grow 180 inches of bone within their first year of antler growth? Are they 'super' deer that avoid the invisible line that is the border of 5 and 3?

[MattB]

Maybe its time to go to reg. 5 and kill some big bucks...

[dana]

Matt,
I guess so, eh? Show these yahoo guides how to get er done. Early season or late? I think an early Muley Camp would be a blast. Kill a couple of whoppers in the highcountry of 5 and then listen to the whining from the outfitters that we killed THEIR deer. :) Didn't you kill a Dandy buck a few years back in 5 in only a couple of days of hunting? ;)

[BCrams]

So you believe the numbers they come up with for deer is accurate, but now you say they can't see the big bucks.. hummmmm ! The Lancasters and their crew know every ridge in that country.. They also run cats there all winter. You don't think they know your special ridge.. guess again. I hunt from high timber stands in the high country up there to the river breaks.. I hike my as off.. so if you or anyone else on this thread thinks I'm driving around in my truck expecting to see a 180 buck you got your head up your ass. You think I have hounds because I'm lazy ??? You run your ass off behind hound for 5 months of the year... you think I'm afraid to hike a couple ridges looking for deer... Wake up !

Snow - Actually snow, given those survey results, I have always wondered how they account for the bucks given their flight lines. Maintaining the 20:100 is a good ratio for mule deer but I sure as hell know they weren't seeing the big boys because they're not where you want them to be :-D.

I don't think you're going to see deer with hounds baying ahead of you when they've got predators like wolves to worry about ;) I would think deer wouldn't want anything to do with it.

Like I said, that giant typical shed only 2 or so years ago was on the plateau within spitting distance of those grassland break areas. Big bucks are alive and well in that country. Start hunting harder / smarter. I've seen Lancaster guides at work during deer season .... what a joke. Riding around in a p/u truck back and forth along a road waiting for a buck to cross.

Like Dana says regarding Region 3. I personally know one of the fellows who flew a survey and no big muleys were spotted. Why? The same can be said for Region 5.

If they knew about this ridge, how come I have never seen any guide anywhere near it in over 30 days of hunting this spot ;) Or any boot tracks. I've half joked to my partner that maybe we should offer up this spot to Lancasters.

[dana]

BCRams,
What do you think of Matt's idea? Should we go kick some ass in Region 5 this year?

As for Lancaster's guides, yup, they actually were advertising that kind of 'causal' hunt in Trophy Hunter Magazine. Kick back in the warm comfort of the truck, do a little window glassin, and a lot of driving. And they still were managing to kill 160-180 class bucks. Granted some of the scores of Allen's bucks were suspect to anyone that knows muleys. But give them the benefit of the doubt, everytime there is a picture scoring contest on MM seeing the guesses versus the actual tells ya that pictures sometimes don't do an animal justice. Given the fact that they spend so much time up North in their other operations, with very little ground time in the Fraser, it shows the area has some pretty darn good hunting if they can kill that kind of quality just by roadhunting.

[GoatGuy]

Maybe its time to go to reg. 5 and kill some big bucks...

Not a bad idea.

[Will]

Maybe its time to go to reg. 5 and kill some big bucks...
Hell ya......take the pressure off the local hills from you Yahoos for a year :mrgreen:

:wink:

[MattB]

Maybe that meldrum creek burn would be a good starting point...or the chilko lake burn....or anywhere between Williams lake and Tatla. The buck your thinking of wasnt a dandy, it went 174" gross shot it on the 2nd day of the season.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/matthew_brown69/P1010622.jpg
We saw this buck in there too and managed to put him on the ground.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/matthew_brown69/terrybucklive.jpg

I'd put money on it that if 2-3 of us went into reg. 5 for a 3-4 day hunt we'd be able to put 2 170"+ bucks on the ground no problem!

[MattB]

Hopefully the Anvil mountain guide likes those pictures....:mrgreen:

[Fisher-Dude]

That 195" monster in Mark's avatar is a region 5 buck. :wink:

Rams, is this the grasslands shed you're referring to? Pic really doesn't do it justice. SSEpstein is holding it...:mrgreen:



http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/EspsteinShed1.jpg

[kootenayelkslayer]

...or the chilko lake burn....

That spot will be all shot up by the time I'm through with it this year ;)

[dana]

Here's a matched set of the sheds I picked up in that Gang area. I found 2 seperate years of sheds off this buck within a 10 minutes hike. That right there is a pattern that is good to know. If a buck winters in that tight of an area you can bet he'll be back again. That is where using shed hunting as a scouting tool works to your benefit as a trophy muley fanatic. It also tells ya something. This 190 inch NT was smart. He made it through the hunting season in back to back years dodging heavy resident hunter pressure and guide pressure. On top of that he was able to survive year round pressure from wolves and cougars.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/ChurnNT1.jpg

[dana]

Here's another Chilcotin shed I found. Actually was hunting for a meat buck on an early Oct backpack hunt. Glassed up a very nice 7x7 NT that looked really young. He was a buck that many hunters probably would have pulled the pin on, even guided hunters. But I saw that he was young and could turn into an absolute giant in another year or two so I passed on him. He had a yearling forky buddy that I decided would fit well in my backpack and I crawled to within 20 yards of the forky and pulled the pin. I found this shed within 40 yards of where my buck died.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Sheds035.jpg

[Jelvis]

R U ready for Anahim Lake?
MU 5-6
..........Hwy 20 from Tatla to Anahim Lake forms the northern boundary of 5-6
.. You'll notice the terrain is changing now the coast range looms to the west.
Access you can get off into 5-6 from Hwy 20 to Charlotte Lake with (four by), Nimpo Lake west, and Hotnarco Lake.
.. Deer, some mooses, grizz and some white goats, see regulations for seasons.
.. Spring grizz ( check leh each issue ) No Excuses 100 Per cent Effort ..
Jel .. (Anahim Jim) Give a wave to B.C.'s own Carey Price Number (31) goalie for Canadians, NHL as you drive by Anahim

[Trapper D]

R U ready for Anahim Lake?
MU 5-6
..........Hwy 20 from Tatla to Anahim Lake forms the northern boundary of 5-6
.. You'll notice the terrain is changing now the coast range looms to the west.
Access you can get off into 5-6 from Hwy 20 to Charlotte Lake with (four by), Nimpo Lake west, and Hotnarco Lake.
.. Deer, some mooses, grizz and some white goats, see regulations for seasons.
.. Spring grizz ( check leh each issue ) No Excuses 100 Per cent Effort ..
Jel .. (Anahim Jim) Give a wave to B.C.'s own Carey Price Number (31) goalie for Canadians, NHL as you drive by Anahim
ya and what ever you do dont break down, if you do travel the bush out.lol

[mark]

That 195" monster in Mark's avatar is a region 5 buck. :wink:



Yup that was a great 3 days.... for 4 of us.... 2 of which were rookie hunters, 3 of us out of towners?????


http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/../photos/data/500/medium/501nice_racks.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/../photos/showphoto.php?photo=435&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=501)
& took (the new girlfriend at the time) back for her first deer, lined her up on this one on her second day of holding a rifle!

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/../photos/data/500/medium/501112-1213_IMG.JPG (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/../photos/showphoto.php?photo=1191&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=501)
Yes all region 5 bucks from about 5 years ago!

[BCrams]

What did you do Mark? Warp yourselves back to the 70's / 80's :lol:

[mark]

What did you do Mark? Warp yourselves back to the 70's / 80's :lol:

Hot tub time machine! :-D

[Jelvis]

MU 5-14
Riske Creek
Access to 5-14 from Hwy 20 west of Riske Creek via the Riske Creek road system.
Fair mule deer hunting, occasional swamp-donkey, or also access from Meldrum Creek road from the Hwy 20 of plenty ..
Jelly takin risks for mules at Riske Creek .. with Zeek .. up the creek ..in 5-14 .. Mel at the drums crick ..

[Jelvis]

Finally we end this region 5 with 5-15 as close as you will get to a "Walk in the Park."
North of Quesnel Lake a lil
Access from Bowron Lake Park road, Hwy 26, which leaves Hwy 97 just north of Quesnel.
Roads run south from 26 at Frye Creek, Sovereign Creek and from Stanley.
Also a number of roads running north including Bowron River road which runs into the northwest corner, like lil Jack Horner lol .. of Bowron Lake Park.
Fair mule deer hunting here if your an experienced deer hunter or a beginner you all can be a winner in this amazing mu 5-15 right b4 our eyes.
Another BIG Bonus ... Tahnea .. Alces Alces .. Swamp Donker .. Moose .. Bo Winkle .. King Kong of the Deer Family
LOL .. not to mention bearz lol ..
Jel .. Bye hunter

[Husky7mm]

You guys should come to the EK, reg 5 is way too easy:tongue: soooo many deer.

[Husky7mm]

Heres another big shed from there

http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g342/bforce750/P1000043.jpg

[Jelvis]

Your speaking in two ways Husky, what region and mu did you say you found this shed in? How about the Kokanee eh? lol ..
Jel .. spit it out the truth will set you up lol .. .....................................speak .. btw that shed would have to score non-typ
but if it was scored typical and drop the junk ......................................Good .. btw that shed could be counted typical .....

[elcazador]

well, I'm new at this, Just got my first bow PSE Stinger, no kills so far! this will be my first season, so I think I will get to MU 5-15 and see what happens! is all this crown land?

[Jelvis]

Region 5 has ideal hunting conditions and a relative abundance of game with good climate as well makes hunters think "Cariboo." or "Chilcotin."
Main access roads through out reg 5 are Hwy 97, which crosses the easternmost part of 5.
and Hwy 20 which lays westward into Chicotin country, then crosses the southern part of Tweedsmuir Park drops down through sheer rock walls to the sea along the Atnarco River reaching the salt chuck at Bell Coola
East of Williams Lake
from McLeese Lake, 150 Mile House, Lac la Hache, and 100 Mile House.
Jelvis .... C'mon back baby I wanna play house with you .. East Of the Coast Range on the high plateau's moose and mule deer are top of the list.

[dana]

Wonder where all the whinning guides disappeared too? Maybe they are taking the Code of Silence that the GOABC is demanding as they count the gold in their war chest and prepare to declare war???? Must be nice to work for employers that demand you keep your mouth shut. Kinda reminds me of what is going on in the middle east eh?

[one-shot-wonder]

Wonder where all the whinning guides disappeared too? Maybe they are taking the Code of Silence that the GOABC is demanding as they count the gold in their war chest and prepare to declare war???? Must be nice to work for employers that demand you keep your mouth shut. Kinda reminds me of what is going on in the middle east eh?

Only difference between here and the middle east is the residents aren't going to flee the country!:evil:

[Jelvis]

Special special read alllll about it. Big bah Hucks hunters! .... It's Hanceville and meat on the Grittel
..BIG CREEK ..
...Tsuh Lake .... make no mistake just past Tsuh
....Take the last train to Hanceville and I'll meet yah at Taseko ..
.... Special Edition Hints On Big Mule Bah Hucks .. Living Quarterz .. they live here .. Bah Higg!
Hint special ... The country, take note ( west of the north end of Taseko ) some BIG mule buck$
Region and mu is MU 5-4 .. South west of Hanceville . You'll have your hands full ..
...Camp at No Fish lake head west of the north end and blow away a beast .................. Need a big buck?
Another certain spot we won't forget to talk talk talk about BOOM! ... Main access Hwy 20 .. Big Creek Road ..
Fair to Good moose and deer hunting .. also a treat is seeing a white goat, or a brown sheep, and a GRIZZZ
watch out in the High Country ..
JP Moregun

[Husky7mm]

Sorry thats a gang shed Jelly. I here ya on the non typical, typical deal.