Crossbow Specifics needed

[.303]

Ok, so i know the last thing this place needs is another controversial crossbow thread....I have a bit of an issue I don't know how to address.

My father-in-law has an Excalibur (i think it is the 2nd or 3rd from the top of the line). Anyways, it shoots well over 300fps.

I have an issue with him because he seems to think that the range on a crossbow is endless. He has his last pin set up for 70 yards and is planning on practicing with a hay bail for 100 yards :shock:

I am trying to tell him that he probably doesn't want to do that as there are way too many variables after what 40-50 yards?

I am not that well versed in crossbow specs so any info whether it be from something you have read or if it is something you have experienced would help.

He seems to think that it will have enough energy for a clean kill, and i am just really not comfortable with him doing this. especially when he starts talking about trying to get the right arc.

All that i keep thinking is that the animal will hear the sound and sure the bolt is travelling pretty quick, but the animal will hear the bow and if it doesn't get out of the way, it will at least turn or something.....

Any info would help immensely. he probably end up doing what he wants, however maybe I can at least try to sway his train of thought.

[Mountaintop]

I have an Excal that is probably similar to your father-in-law. Excaliburs are great bows and can probably fling a stick that far but is it an ethical shot for most people to take on a living thing? The kill area looks pretty small at that distance. Some people can go out beyond 50 but I for one would never shoot at an animal past about 30 yards. Excaliburs performance charts don’t even go over 50 yards.

I’m still a little new with my bow so take this for what it is worth but based on my own experience and what I have read even with lots of practice it seems to me that so much is in play when you go out that far. Even if you are using a rest, have perfect form, and are consistent in each and every shot there are so many things that are out of your control at that distance. I would think that the slightest wind could greatly affect the shot. Does he have a level mounted on the bow to assure it is perfectly level each and every time? How about his scope? At that distance he should be using a higher power, more precise scope than the stock Excalibur.

Are his arrows all perfectly matched? Do they all weigh exactly the same and are they balanced the same? You can’t shoot any better than your arrows will let you. If he is going to accurately shoot that far he better have arrows that hit the same hole closer in, every time. If he wants several perfectly matched arrows he will probably have to build them himself. It is a simple concept too but broadheads also fly differently than field points and will try to steer the arrow in flight . If one broadhead is slightly out of perfect tune than another it will fly differently. Each time the broadhead hits a target in practice it probably nicks it up a bit and can affect long distance flight so the next shot could be completely different.

Unless all he wants to do is kill hay bales, which is a good goal in itself, it seems to me that a reasonable bow hunter should be able to get much closer to his target than 100 yards.

[The Hermit]

Agree with Mountaintop totally. 30 yards max for me with Crossbow, or Compound, and 15 - 20 with my longbow. Sound travels much faster than 300 fps and at 40+ yards that bolt isn't going anywhere near that fast!

[Bow Walker]

I think it's fine to practice out as far as he can reliably hit the target, builds confidence and helps you to get to know what the equipment is capable of doing.

But for hunting it's a whole different can of worms. There is too much chance of the animal hearing you and flinching or at the very least the animal takes another step while you're waiting for the arrow to hit. It happened to me at less than 40 yards - hit too far back and had a long trail to recover my deer.

Crossbows are not as lethal as rifles. He might as well throw rocks at those distances.

[rocksteady]

Sounds like your father in law bought into the merchandising and hype produced by bow makers, as well as other people who say they can shoot that far and harvest an animal.....:-|

Lets do some simple math...Bow shoots 300 fps, thats from the "muzzle"....What speed is it going at 100 yards (300 feet)???? Probably nothing near 300...

So even if the bolt was still going 300 fps at 100 yards, it would still take 1 second to cover the distance.. A critter can move lots in a 1 second period. Especially after it hears the thwack of a crossbow (or compound for that matter going off).....How much movement if it takes 2 seconds to cover the same distance????

PERSONALLY, I have a crossbow that shoots very quick also, however I limit myself to 50 yards at a perfectly relaxed broadside animal.....And I pack a range finder to ensure distances, plus I practice a lot at varying distances, angles, shooting positions...

I own a 30-06 that is ballistically capable of shooting 1000 yards and delivering a kill shot...Have I ever taken that shot??? Hell no....Big difference between theory and reality....

Hope your FIL realizes the true limitations before he a) Misses and gets PO'd that the crossbow is not what he was told it was capable of b) He shoots at somethign and ends up having to track it all day/night because of poor shot placement and may/may not ever recover the animal...

[Bowzone_Mikey]

the Crossbow can pound a 6 inch circle at 100 yards all day long provided that the operator does his job .... I have seen seen it on the 90 M range.

In a hunting situation .... unless the cross bow is super loud the animal wont hear it at 100 yards so sound is a non factor ...
given the right circumstances could the shot be made? Yes ...
Should the shot be made? Not in my eyes ... but everyones ethics are just a bit differant ....
the unpredictibility of a living creature would be the main reason i wouldnt shoot ...
speed wouldnt be near 300 probally close to 175-200 ...but at that range the force of gravity plays into it as well ... Impact would be pretty penatrating ...mpact angle would be like shooting it from a tree stand above ...


We were playing Battle Klout at one shoot that I attended ... I was using hunting arrows at about 400 grain out of my super tec that flung them at about 300... Pins were 200 yards apart (had to use the end of my stab as a sight pin) impact was pretty steep and penitration was pretty deep into the ground

[The Hermit]

Mike

Every crossbow I've ever heard being shot sounds pretty much like a loud hand clap. I know that deer can hear a hand clap at 100+ yards. Hell I can hear a hand clap at that distance when its quiet in the meadow or woods. So, I'd have to disagree that sound isn't a factor.

[Bow Walker]

Yes - it may shoot "well over 300" as you (or he) states. But that is measured with the lightest bolt possible (given the crossbow's poundage) and it is measured at a distance of less than 10 yards from the crossbow.

By the time the bolt travels past 75 or 80 yards it'll have lost the majority of its velocity - plus the majority of its penetrating punch. Will it kill at distances past 75 or 80 yards? Probably - if the quarry is deaf, and paralyzed, and tied for and aft to a couple of stakes.

[.303]

Thanks for the input guys.

I will definately be showing some of these comments to him when I see him next.

For the ones that have made specific comments RE: gear used.....I don't think the bolts and broadheads are the best, but i am not too sure, he has the factory Excalibur scope.

I didn't know that Exclibur made the tables only out to 50 yards, that is an interesting angle too.

Who knows, maybe he can be swayed...myself personally, i would never take that shot. I don't think it's ethical, in my opinion...others may though.

[Big Lew]

(Probably - if the quarry is deaf, and paralyzed, and tied for and aft to a couple of stakes.) I know it is sarcasm of a sorts, but I love it! I totally agree with most of the remarks, but each one has his/her comfort zone. Some have stated within this thread, and others, that they personally would not shoot much over 30 yards, and they give their reasons why. Others, including myself, are comfortable shooting a bit further, if the circumstances are favourable. Very few are skilled enough to be able to consistently hit within a 6" circle when shooting over fifty yards while in true hunting environments. Most will agree that there are many things that can go wrong when taking long shots....wind influence, elevation change, inaccurate ranging, animal movement, and inconsistent shooting form, so trying a "Hale-Mary" 80-100 yard shot is very high risk, and in my opinion, un-ethical and irresponsible.

[Bow Walker]

Thanks for the input guys.

I will definately be trying some of these comments on him when I see him next.....
Bring him over to your place and let him read this thread. If he's still not convinced - well, you did your best and tell him that he can go hunting by himself or with his irresponsible and unethical buddies.

[.303]

Bring him over to your place and let him read this thread. If he's still not convinced - well, you did your best and tell him that he can go hunting by himself or with his irresponsible and unethical buddies.

Sounds good to me.

[wiggy]

Yep tell him to grow up. Ive been using a excalibur for a seven years and kill deer with it every year. I shoot does because its open season in December as we just have too many of em plus they just taste great. 30 yrds is the deal and closer is better. They make noise no doubt about it and the deer react to it every time. I would also like to state that i do not think crossbow hunting should be considered bow hunting and good friends of mine who bow hunt chid me all the time when they see me heading out with the tool. I do love it as its very efficient as you do not have to worry about drawing or movement and its very easy to use from the ground. I can hit a pie plate at 100 yrds every time but would never attempt or squeeze lol at any animal period unless its standing broadside and not moving at 3o paces. The things are real killers from that range and in and I recommend extreme care. Hunters should not carry them cocked and arrowed; it still amazes me that we can use them

[Mountaintop]

303, should have given you the link to the Excal arrow ballistics page in my last post. Hope this helps

http://www.excaliburcrossbow.com/content/arrow_ballistics

[greatwhitehunter]

Give him a test
Set a pie plate out at 100 yard, give him 5 arrows and see if he can hit it 5/5 times. Propably won't, my bet anyway.

[Bow Walker]

In your original post you say that he is planning on practicing out to 100 yards and that he thinks the crosbow is lethal out to those distances.

Well he's right. The crossbow is lethal out that far. It's good to know what your equipment is capable of, and the only sure way is to actually shoot it out that far.

Is it a good idea to try (or even attempt)to kill an animal at those distances? That's a definite NO!

Like greatwhitehunter says - set up (6" pie plates) "kill-zone'' sized targets out at 75 yds and 100 yds. It's really hard to hit that lethal area from that far away. The pin will be covering most of the animal (and all of the pie plate) at those distances - almost impossible to pick out the proper spot to aim for.

Also - at distances over 60 yards, the aiming point will be thrown off just by breathing and having a heartbeat. It's good to practice shooting that far, but to actually think that killing something that far just because the bow is capable of it borders on the irresponsible.

[BCsniper]

There is a few things to think about:

Can you kill an animal 100 yards away or more with an arrow/bolt?

Todays crossbows can easily get a bolt out to more than 100 yards with accuracy and enough KE to put an animal down and depending on your sighting system can be very accurate as well. The arrow speeds are approaching or exceeding 400 ft/s with the majority of cross bows in the low to mid 300 f/s.

Can you be accurate in killing that animal?

If your crossbow has a bi-pod or stead rest and you do all the things a long distance shooter does your bolts can be accurate enough to kill a stationary animal at 100 yards or more.

But your crossbow will make noise, your animal has multiple seconds to move prior to the projectile getting down range and your prone to greater affects of the wind on your bolt.

How much Kinetic Energy does your arrow have at the point of impact?

Generally you need the following KE to:

25 ft. lbs or less for small game - rabbits, foxes,
25-41 ft. lbs for Medium Game - Deer. Antelope -
42-65 ft. lbs for Large Game - Elk, Black bear, Wild Boar
65 ft. lbs for X-Large Game - Grizzly

Your Kenetic Energy is your best measuring tool. If you are shooting a 400 grain bolt - 350 ft/s - your 1 yard KE is 108.83 FT LBS of Energy.

The friction from the arrow will cause it to slow as it flies down range. The slower the object is moving the less friction will occur on it.

After 20 yards, for each additonal 10 yards further you lose approximatley 7 ft/sec and 3-4 ft.lbs KE

Range KE Velocity FPS
1 Yard - 108.83 350

10 yards - 105 343
20 yards - 101 336
30 yards - 97 323
40 yards - 89 317
50 yards - 85 310
60 yards - 79 300
70 yards - 75 294
80 yards - 73 287
90 yards – 70 280
100 yards - 66 273
110 yards - 62 266
120 yards - 55 251
130 yards - 53 244
140 yards - 50 237
150 yards - 47 230
160 yards - 44 223
170 yards - 41 216
180 yards - 39 209
190 yards - 36 202
200 yards - 33 195
210 yards - 30 188
220 yards - 27 181
230 yards - 24 174
240 yards - 21 167

Verdict:

He should have more than enough knock down power to kill something at 100 yards. He also should be able to have the right sights to be able to make that shot.

He will have a 2 second fly time to get out that far. He also has to hold his crossbow rocksteady to ensure he hasn't flinched even a little bit. The winds can't be moving because he will have wind drift left to right. A front to back wind might carry his arrow short or too far.

Train to be a sniper to 100 yards on the targets and find your comfortable maximum hunting range. (Suggest less than 60 yards).

Good Luck with your hunt though, have to keep us posted of how he does!

[troutseeker]

Do yourself a favor and let him do as he wants. No sense getting in an argument with a father-in-law and maybe ruin a relationship. He'll find out during hunting season if it works for him or not.

[savagecanuck]

It is possible to reach out to 100yds with a modern crossbow.The one that comes to mind is the Styker,it has a hand crank and shoots over 400fps.I have taken 2 nice bucks in the last year with my old titan 10 point[285fps]both at 50 yds but with alot of practice.I just bought the new top of the line Excalibure Equinox and am going to site it so the bottom graduation is for 60yds