What the Guides in region 5 are asking for.

[TPK]

At the last Region 5 Wildlife Advisory Committee meeting, this was dropped on us. While it wasn't allowed to be discussed as it wasn't on the agenda, it was accepted by the MOE for consideration. While I can agree with some of the comments, others leave me angry.

Region 5 is one of the only Regions without some sort of an open Moose hunt and we've got the population to support it. At last years meeting we were told by the MOE that they would seriously look at implementing the Ominica plan for Moose management. Now we are being offered the morsel of "we'll try it in one MU (5-2c) and it will be an LEH, not a GOS as it was supposed to be. The Ominica plan should be for the entire East side of the river, not this one MU.

Focusing on such a small area is not giving this plan a fair chance to succeed and by not having a short GOS for Spike forks, we’re not getting what we asked for at all. When the guides say this is being “pushed by a few individuals” it angers me. It is a unanimous request with motions past supporting it by the vast majority of Region 5 Clubs (I believe Williams Lake was the only hold out). That means several hundred people are asking, not a few. The “few” is the four or five guides that are pushing back and painting us resident hunters in not a very favourable light!

Let’s hear what you think about this. Better yet, if you’re a BCWF member, show up to the BCWF Region 5 AGM 2:00 P.M. Saturday Feb. 19th at the Williams Lake Sportsman Association and be heard there.

[TPK]

Guide Outfitters issues on Regulations

- We are still looking for a Grizzly season in the Chilcotin. It's a
catch 22 situation. There are so many being killed in the name of
problem bears that the season isn't being opened. It's a complete
waste of a resource. Government has got to get away from the
politics of wildlife management and manage for the sake of the
resource. Where there is ranching, tourism, and generally conflict
areas, Grizzlies should have a higher harvest rate, as they are
going to die anyway.

5-12 Ca ribou season
- This is an ongoing situation. We have residents on open season
and Guides on Quota. This should be one way or the other. If the
overall AAH isn't being met, then Guides should come off Quota
as they are not reaching their portion of the AAH as it is. There
for it is redundant. If it is being met, residents should go on LEH
as management is risking overharvest. There is also a concern of
meat being left, as several carcasses have been found with only
the trophies taken and maybe the back straps. This could be an
enforcement issue, or require a stricter meat law.

Enforcement
- Enforcement in the field is getting worse, there needs to be more
presence in the field. There is getting to be less compliance as
people are willing to take the risk, because they see a
Conservation Officer so rarely.
- The token "Native" with non Natives is becoming far to common,
and a real crackdown is needed. This is not good for the hunting
community, whether it be the Resident hunter or the First
Nations; it's a bad mark on both.
- There also needs to be much better signage and LEH hunters need
much better maps of boundaries. The maps given are on such a
fine scale it is very difflcult to determine where the actual
boundary is. Even though they can get better maps on their own,
no court would convict a person who said fI This is the map that
was provided to me"
- There are so many new roads out there now that for a hunter
unfamiliar with the area would have a very difficult time knowing
where the MU boundaries are. There are very few MU boundary
signs out there. This Region needs more signs!

Wolves
- Wolf numbers are getting out of hand and are having a larger
impact on our ungulant population and livestock. We are
pleading for more liberal regulations, which would include:
-no bag limit in all the Cariboo Region (which I understand we are
getting)
- No closed season for hunting year round in the Cariboo Region
- No closed season for trapping on private property
-No tag required for non resident hunters.

Goats
- Once again, we are asking for a goat season in the Itches. The
population and guidelines to have a Goat season are all met and
there is no reason for not having one. Why wait for some natural
disaster to happen when we could be utilizing this resource. If a
problem occurred it could always be closed.
- Where there is an intermingling population ofGoats in a-given
range of Mountains such as in 5-15 A, there should be hunting
allowed in all zones. 5-15 A is the same population unit, it should
be counted as such, and appropriate permits should be spread
throughout for the harvest. This would eliminate the closed area
in the upper Horsefly and McKay.

Compulsory Inspections
- Compulsory inspections are still a problem here, and we would
like to see if they could farm it out again. Perhaps a Taxidermist
or other individuals that would have more flexibility on weekends.
Maybe even one of your office staff would be willing on weekends
to do the inspections, if they were paid extra to do so.

Ominica Moose Management
- We are very concerned of the push for the Ominica moose
management system by a few individuals. This wil1 not work here.
We have hundreds of kilometres of roads and more going in daily.
There are getting to be very few hiding places left for moose. The
Cow harvest can be sustained at about 3%, and right now our
legal first nations harvest is far above that. Our calf cow ratio is
just enough for us to have an AAH as it is. If we have a calf
harvest it would reduce that ratio and our AAH would drop
dramatically. There is no access restriction, so an open season of
any sort would have a devastating effect. The quality of hunt
would drop dramatically, with overcrowding and overkill. There
will always be an issue of non legal moose being left, which would
have to be added to the factor and taken off the LEH number.
The LEH draws would go down considerably as its open season kill
would have to come off. The risk of "native" road blocks and
recourse is very real and quite possible. This would reduce
opportunity and create more tension between user groups. We
would never agree to a season in one part of the region and not
the other. This would create wildlife suicide, as we witnessed, the
last time this was tried. The system we have now is working.
There is no shortage of open hunting opportunity around us.
Moose are the number one animal for Guides in the Cariboo, and
without a quality experience for this species we are finished. We
need to have a good population with a reasonable success rate to
assure a future in the Guiding industry here in the Cariboo. We
are having a hard enough time surviving as it is. A better
population will be even better for the Resident hunters as it will
allow even more LEH's. Other Regions that are on the Ominica
System are now finding problems with their systems and are
cutting back.

Deer Season
- The Deer season is seeing a little increase and showing signs of
recovery. The season is not as restrictive as it could be for a faster
recovery. We would like to see management of deer in this
region shoot for 35 - 100 Buck to Doe ratio. This would create a
quality hunt for everyone.
A point system on Goats should be implemented. The overall objective
is to have a healthy Goat population and a AAH astablished for Goats
with a 30% Nanny harvest. A Billy could be 1 point and a Nanny 3
points. Recreation would get their share in points and commercial their
share. As each group reaches their allotted points they are the only
ones affected, the other group may keep harvesting until they reach
their points.

[one-shot-wonder]

"The Deer season is seeing a little increase and showing signs of
recovery. The season is not as restrictive as it could be for a faster
recovery. We would like to see management of deer in this region shoot for 35 - 100 Buck to Doe ratio. This would create a quality hunt for everyone."

Not as restricitve as could be.......they want to further reduce the season, with virtually no moose season what the hell is a guy to eat beef?

35 - 100, higher target ratio than anywhere else in the province....WTF?

Quality my a$$, let the residents in reg. 5 shoot something for once.
what a joke...............

[XPEIer]

Now we are being offered the morsel of "we'll try it in one MU (5-2c) and it will be an LEH,

There already is a moose allocation under LEH, so what is the offer?

xpeier

[TPK]

There already is a moose allocation under LEH, so what is the offer?

xpeier

A small portion of that LEH will be for spike fork and possibly cow/calf but what ever is decided, it will come out of the existing harvest number for that area, not an addititon to it.

We are asking for a GOS like the Ominica, and for it to be the entire east side of the river, not one small MU.

[6616]

"The Deer season is seeing a little increase and showing signs of
recovery. The season is not as restrictive as it could be for a faster
recovery. We would like to see management of deer in this region shoot for 35 - 100 Buck to Doe ratio. This would create a quality hunt for everyone."

Not as restricitve as could be.......they want to further reduce the season, with virtually no moose season what the hell is a guy to eat beef?

35 - 100, higher target ratio than anywhere else in the province....WTF?

Quality my a$$, let the residents in reg. 5 shoot something for once.
what a joke...............

I agree JW. A 35 bucks per 100 does ratio is unattainable with any kind of open season. This almost certainly would require a fairly restrictive LEH on bucks. Currently outfitters take about 10% of the buck harvest, if the season went LEH they would start at an alloction of 25% of the AAH, pretty obvious why they want this to happen...!

[Snowpatrol]

I agree JW. A 35 bucks per 100 does ratio is unattainable with any kind of open season. This almost certainly would require a fairly restrictive LEH on bucks. Currently outfitters take about 10% of the buck harvest, if the season went LEH they would start at an alloction of 25% of the AAH, pretty obvious why they want this to happen...!

That would false ! Maybe a good number for all of BC , but not region 5 ! As the deer population sucks in most of region 5 there is not a marketable hunt to sell in region 5 !

[Gunner]

That would false ! Maybe a good number for all of BC , but not region 5 ! As the deer population sucks in most of region 5 there is not a marketable hunt to sell in region 5 !Really? The late season Fraser River hunts are not marketable?:confused:This is is just more GOABC attempting to restrict Resident hunters so they can make a dollar.Quality hunts for all my a**!!! Gunner

[GoatGuy]

All the letters and documentation are in-line. The plan was for all of 5-02 with the possibility of adding 5-01.

Wouldn't be too worried about the outfitters there. They were booking and harvesting more moose when moose were GOS up there until 1997. They've got competition in the other provinces because their moose are small and still classified as Canada moose. The hunts are way over-priced.

They've been pushing for LEH for years on deer. We've got a management plan and it is very conservative. Have no idea who came up with the 35 bucks:100 does but I'd just ignore it unless it came from the F&W Branch then there's some explaining to do.

[gibblewabble]

Guide Outfitters issues on Regulations


5-12 Ca ribou season
- This is an ongoing situation. We have residents on open season
and Guides on Quota. This should be one way or the other. If the
overall AAH isn't being met, then Guides should come off Quota
as they are not reaching their portion of the AAH as it is. There
for it is redundant. If it is being met, residents should go on LEH
as management is risking overharvest.

Guides AAH=this statement reminds me of the problems with the Agricultural Land Reserve, let it lie fallow for a number of years and then apply for it to be removed. Is this what you are looking for a GOS for the guides? If the target is met then us the resident hunter should take the hit? If we can't hunt then why should anyone from out of country?

Enforcement
- Enforcement in the field is getting worse, there needs to be more
presence in the field. There is getting to be less compliance as
people are willing to take the risk, because they see a
Conservation Officer so rarely.

Agreed more money needs to go into enforcement.


Wolves
- Wolf numbers are getting out of hand and are having a larger
impact on our ungulant population and livestock. We are
pleading for more liberal regulations, which would include:
-no bag limit in all the Cariboo Region (which I understand we are
getting)
- No closed season for hunting year round in the Cariboo Region
- No closed season for trapping on private property
-No tag required for non resident hunters.

Agreed




Deer Season
- We would like to see management of deer in this
region shoot for 35 - 100 Buck to Doe ratio. This would create a
quality hunt for everyone.

Wow that is a total trophy management number, often used on private ranches for TROPHY MANAGEMENT.



Nice.:insert irony smily:

[6616]

That would false ! Maybe a good number for all of BC , but not region 5 ! As the deer population sucks in most of region 5 there is not a marketable hunt to sell in region 5 !

Well say outfitters take 10% "or less" then if that is more accurate.

Either way, going on LEH bumps outfitters up to an allocation of 25% and restricts residents to 75% of the AAH, and the need to draw an LEH before being able to hunt. I wouldn't be surprized if this is their real motivation. Don't forget on a restrictive LEH there could be marketable "quality" hunts very soon and with restricted competition from resident hunters to boot.

[horshur]

what are the residents asking for???

the way I see this...Guides are following protocol this is how things are done and the resident reps have there list as well.

the first nations probably have a list as well

trappers will have maybe somthing to say as well

I think(don't know) that maybe the other tenure holders and thier list might be just as inflammatory if it were posted out of context as well.

[Fisher-Dude]

Deer Season
- The Deer season is seeing a little increase and showing signs of
recovery. The season is not as restrictive as it could be for a faster
recovery. We would like to see management of deer in this
region shoot for 35 - 100 Buck to Doe ratio. This would create a
quality hunt for everyone.


35:100? Okay, we can achieve that. And here's how:

1.) close down bucks to everyone, GOs included.
2.) change the current GOS buck seasons to be doe only seasons
3.) GOs will be able to book quality meat hunts
4.) after a number of years of GOS doe only, the buck to doe ratio should settle around 35:100

There's no other way to achieve 35:100 on mule deer populations.

Careful what you ask for GOABC.

[BCrams]

Deer Season
We would like to see management of deer in this
region shoot for 35 - 100 Buck to Doe ratio. This would create a
quality hunt for everyone.


a 35:100 buck doe ratio? Honestly the best laugh of the day.

Specifically, who's bright idea is 35:100 if it is at all true someone proposed it?? :rolleyes:

Quality hunt is for the Non-Resident and those who can afford a GO.

As one biologist, Brandon Diamond from Division of Wildlife in Colorado says: "Maintaining so many older-aged bucks, however, doesn’t come without sacrifice,” ......... ”In many southwest Colorado deer units, deer hunters will have to sit on the sidelines for several years between hunts."

Just insert 'resident hunters of BC' into the bold.

[Gunner]

"35-100 buck doe ratio,this will create a quality hunt for everyone"! You mean a quality(read dollars!) hunt for GOs and the 8 or 10 LEH hunters fortunate enough to get the draw,as thats about how many tags would be issued to achieve that buck/doe ratio.Read the other post,"what has GOABC done for you".This ought to answer that question. Gunner

[TPK]

what are the residents asking for???

the way I see this...Guides are following protocol this is how things are done and the resident reps have there list as well.

the first nations probably have a list as well

trappers will have maybe somthing to say as well

I think(don't know) that maybe the other tenure holders and thier list might be just as inflammatory if it were posted out of context as well.

You are correct, but we'll never see the First Nations list.

The resident hunters have been open about what they are asking for, a GOS Moose season like the Ominica and we got "buy in" from the Ministry in Victoria but it has stalled at the Regional level (read Roger Stewart) and now we're being offered very little, and in a fashion that isn't going to give a true "test" of the Ominica management plan... not that it needs to be tested .. it will work, is working and can work here, and it doesn't matter what the Moose population is. A sound management plan is a sound management plan period.

As for the Guides requests being taken out of context .. I thought it would be good for all to see what they are asking for and in the context that they are asking. That is the document given to the MOE, not a snippit of, or a paraphrase of, that's it, in all it's glory, spelling and grammer mistakes intact.

Was my posting of it meant to be inflammatory? Not outright no, but yes I was hoping for a reaction that would get people involved and talking, maybe even enough that some BCWF members would attend the Region 5 BCWF AGM for a change.

[gibblewabble]

Your right TPK we all need to start showing up to our BCWF meetings, I havent but I am going to start.

[Surrey Boy]

Your right TPK we all need to start showing up to our BCWF meetings, I havent but I am going to start.

Same here. I should visit the BCWF website as often as this forum, since I pay to be a member there and HBC is free and powerless.

[coach]

Thanks for keeping all of us informed and for starting this thread, TPK. I'm with gibblewabble, time to get a little more politically active.

[TPK]

That's great news guys and just what I was hoping for !! Surrey Boy, you're in luck, the BCWF AGM is being held in your back yard this year, it's at the Sheraton at Guildford. Runs April 14 - 16 . While most of us work (though I'm taking time off to attend), you can always hit the fundraiser Saturday night. PM me for more info if you like.

[Snowpatrol]

Well say outfitters take 10% "or less" then if that is more accurate.

Either way, going on LEH bumps outfitters up to an allocation of 25% and restricts residents to 75% of the AAH, and the need to draw an LEH before being able to hunt. I wouldn't be surprized if this is their real motivation. Don't forget on a restrictive LEH there could be marketable "quality" hunts very soon and with restricted competition from resident hunters to boot.

True.. and if the season goes back to the way it was 2 yrs ago a 2 buck slaughter, like all the residents want the GO's and the residents will have F.A. to hunt period ! I've hunted there for many years.... I've seen the BRUTAL decline in numbers and in quality ! Its time for some people and the BCWF to pull their head out of their a$$es !

[GoatGuy]

True.. and if the season goes back to the way it was 2 yrs ago a 2 buck slaughter, like all the residents want the GO's and the residents will have F.A. to hunt period ! I've hunted there for many years.... I've seen the BRUTAL decline in numbers and in quality ! Its time for some people and the BCWF to pull their head out of their a$$es !

How many resident hunters harvested 2 bucks?
When did most of the harvest occur?
Why?

[willy442]

True.. and if the season goes back to the way it was 2 yrs ago a 2 buck slaughter, like all the residents want the GO's and the residents will have F.A. to hunt period ! I've hunted there for many years.... I've seen the BRUTAL decline in numbers and in quality ! Its time for some people and the BCWF to pull their head out of their a$$es !

Snow patrol: I matters not what we have watched take place in our regions. You can rest assured that some on here will come at you from the same old angle. That being, How many hunters shot two bucks? How do you know there is a decline in Deer? What information do you have to back that up? and finally YOU MUST BE ASSOCIATED WITH THAT TERRIBLE ORGANIZATION THE GOABC.

Much like you I continue the fight from what I've watched take place in the woods, because it's really the only reliable we have. These new management theory's being fired around by some are really an easy sell to the people that stand to benifit from them. In my opinion on most the end result will be the same. That is a reasonably quick advancement to full LEH as that will be the only way we can recoupe our game herds again and still allow some hunting. What I can't believe is how in every case it's the guides fault for being greedy. Time will show all the lambs following these people with thier tags and guns the real truth of the matter. It's very clear most won't have the freedom to enjoy a GOS hunt with thier sons.

[horshur]

How many resident hunters harvested 2 bucks?
When did most of the harvest occur?
Why?

Goat....why the liberal doe tags at the same time any buck season which smacked up against the 4 point season?

who were the managers listening to then? Bet it was the guides eh?

[GoatGuy]

Snow patrol: I matters not what we have watched take place in our regions. You can rest assured that some on here will come at you from the same old angle. That being, How many hunters shot two bucks? How do you know there is a decline in Deer? What information do you have to back that up? and finally YOU MUST BE ASSOCIATED WITH THAT TERRIBLE ORGANIZATION THE GOABC.

Much like you I continue the fight from what I've watched take place in the woods, because it's really the only reliable we have. These new management theory's being fired around by some are really an easy sell to the people that stand to benifit from them. In my opinion on most the end result will be the same. That is a reasonably quick advancement to full LEH as that will be the only way we can recoupe our game herds again and still allow some hunting. What I can't believe is how in every case it's the guides fault for being greedy. Time will show all the lambs following these people with thier tags and guns the real truth of the matter. It's very clear most won't have the freedom to enjoy a GOS hunt with thier sons.

What the harvest shows is that the decline in the buck:doe ratio, which has nothing to do with conservation, was due to a decision made by the F&W Branch in the Region.

The intention was to increase the number of trophy bucks due to a non-selective harvest during the rut, which would normally work but it was one of the only any buck seasons across BC during the rut.

It was generally not supported by outfitters or residents at the time (not all mind you :mrgreen:).

Your rhetoric and uninformed opinion has no value or context in regards to this management issue. Garbage in, garbage out.

[GoatGuy]

Goat....why the liberal doe tags at the same time any buck season which smacked up against the 4 point season?

who were the managers listening to then? Bet it was the guides eh?

Listening to nobody, there were multiple requests to move the antlerless LEHs in Sept/Oct or outside of the GOS entirely.

[Jagermeister]

True.. and if the season goes back to the way it was 2 yrs ago a 2 buck slaughter, like all the residents want the GO's and the residents will have F.A. to hunt period ! I've hunted there for many years.... I've seen the BRUTAL decline in numbers and in quality ! Its time for some people and the BCWF to pull their head out of their a$$es !The only reason the mule deer harvest went up is because they became the target species once moose were no longer available in a GOS.
Open a GOS for fork horn moose (like what was attempted a few years ago before the guides rallied the indians to protest at the provincial building in Williams Lake) and the deer population will recover quickly.
As far as I am concerned, the guides contribute next to squat to the provincial economy compared to the resident hunter. And if you need verification, ask Dave Vatamaniuk at Frank's Supermarket how his business fared after the GOS for Region 5 was shut down. Like the guides rushed into his business and bought all their shells and had all the game processed at his facility. The diddly amount of money the guides bring in only lines the guides pocket with a little dribble down to their few employees. Put that in your pipe and smoke it '442.
Tony, sorry for the hi-jack.
And for the record, I lived and hunted in the Quesnel area for 34 years before moving away in 2006.
Funny, back in the late '70s, early '80s, when Harold Mitchell was trying to re-introduce elk to the Gaspard-Churn Creek area, I never heard Harold mention one letter, except from Chilco Choate, of support for the project from the GOs in the region.

[willy442]

[quote=GoatGuy;853103]What the harvest shows is that the decline in the buck:doe ratio, which has nothing to do with conservation, was due to a decision made by the F&W Branch in the Region.

Please explain your statement here on how the Buck to Doe ratio has nothing to do with the future of the herd. I would like to see how it's has no ties to the conservation side of things.



The intention was to increase the number of trophy bucks due to a non-selective harvest during the rut, which would normally work but it was one of the only any buck seasons across BC during the rut.


So here you are say it would normally work but seeing as it was the only Buck season in the rut it failed. What were the reasons? Were they overharvested by hunters or was this just another scientific experiment that failed?



It was generally not supported by outfitters or residents at the time (not all mind you :mrgreen:).


If no one wanted it, why was it implemented? Who wanted it and what was thier reasoning?


Your rhetoric and uninformed opinion has no value or context in regards to this management issue. Garbage in, garbage out

I would say that as a concerned resident of BC my inquiry into this issue is very relevent. I would suggest you are taking the normal BCWF approach and attitude towards this issue, one that is seen far to often.

[horshur]

The only reason the mule deer harvest went up is because they became the target species once moose were no longer available in a GOS.
Open a GOS for fork horn moose (like what was attempted a few years ago before the guides rallied the indians to protest at the provincial building in Williams Lake) and the deer population will recover quickly.
As far as I am concerned, the guides contribute next to squat to the provincial economy compared to the resident hunter. And if you need verification, ask Dave Vatamaniuk at Frank's Supermarket how his business fared after the GOS for Region 5 was shut down. Like the guides rushed into his business and bought all their shells and had all the game processed at his facility. The diddly amount of money the guides bring in only lines the guides pocket with a little dribble down to their few employees. Put that in your pipe and smoke it '442.
Tony, sorry for the hi-jack.



And for the record, I lived and hunted in the Quesnel area for 34 years before moving away in 2006.
Funny, back in the late '70s, early '80s, when Harold Mitchell was trying to re-introduce elk to the Gaspard-Churn Creek area, I never heard Harold mention one letter, except from Chilco Choate, of support for the project from the GOs in the region.

do you really have proof that the guides were rallying the indians??

[willy442]

The only reason the mule deer harvest went up is because they became the target species once moose were no longer available in a GOS.
Open a GOS for fork horn moose (like what was attempted a few years ago before the guides rallied the indians to protest at the provincial building in Williams Lake) and the deer population will recover quickly.
As far as I am concerned, the guides contribute next to squat to the provincial economy compared to the resident hunter. And if you need verification, ask Dave Vatamaniuk at Frank's Supermarket how his business fared after the GOS for Region 5 was shut down. Like the guides rushed into his business and bought all their shells and had all the game processed at his facility. The diddly amount of money the guides bring in only lines the guides pocket with a little dribble down to their few employees. Put that in your pipe and smoke it '442.
Tony, sorry for the hi-jack.
And for the record, I lived and hunted in the Quesnel area for 34 years before moving away in 2006.
Funny, back in the late '70s, early '80s, when Harold Mitchell was trying to re-introduce elk to the Gaspard-Churn Creek area, I never heard Harold mention one letter, except from Chilco Choate, of support for the project from the GOs in the region.

Hope feel better now after your little rant. The truth to matter though really is just because one little back yard meat cutter is not frequented by the G/O's it no way means they are not supportive of the local economies in thier seperate regions. For one thing the small outfits in that region do not have the resources to draw from and spend that some areas do. Which would allow for a greater contribution like those in the more desired regions, like the South East and here in the North.

Come to think of it I've yet to see a non resident whine about the cost of getting somewhere or cheaping out when it comes to gas, food or accommadations. Sure seen it lots on here though, people even fight with thier travelling partners over pennies. Hope this gives you some tobbaco for your pipe tonight.

[GoatGuy]

Please explain your statement here on how the Buck to Doe ratio has nothing to do with the future of the herd. I would like to see how it's has no ties to the conservation side of things.[quote]

The buck:doe ratio is right around 20:100 in the Cariboo. There is no effect on the deer population until it is below 10:100. Most jurisdictions actually manage many of their mule deer populations below 20:100 and actually target post season ratios below 20:100.



[quote=willy442;853118]So here you are say it would normally work but seeing as it was the only Buck season in the rut it failed. What were the reasons? Were they overharvested by hunters or was this just another scientific experiment that failed?

Because it was the only any buck rut hunt in the Province and that was combined with antlerless LEH in the rut. The provincial target is a minimum of 20 bucks:100 does, so this was never a conservation concern, just that we had met that threshold so we had to adjust.


If no one wanted it, why was it implemented? Who wanted it and what was thier reasoning?

Outfitters wanted more 'trophy bucks' and that was the managers attempt to fulfill that. The reasoning was that the non-selective harvest would increase the number of Class IV bucks, but as already stated it didn't world because there was no co-ordination with other regions.


I would say that as a concerned resident of BC my inquiry into this issue is very relevent. I would suggest you are taking the normal BCWF approach and attitude towards this issue, one that is seen far to often.

Typically someone who is concerned will attempt to inform themselves about an issue, correctly identify the problem and come up with a solution. There's no room for your thought process in that sentence.

[Snowpatrol]

Goat....why the liberal doe tags at the same time any buck season which smacked up against the 4 point season?

who were the managers listening to then? Bet it was the guides eh?

WRONG !!! It was the residents of BC that wanted hunter opportunity that made the ministry give out 450 doe tags alone in 5-3.. They figured it would help get the buck to doe ratio back in order... who is that stupid ??? Here we are with few bucks around compared to does because of over harvest.. ( no not from the guides taking there 12-15 a year in that M-U) Lets kill off those breeding does (the few we have left) and keep a 2 buck season ??

[TPK]

... Tony, sorry for the hi-jack.

Not a problem, it's all discussion and that's the intent of the thread.

[Snowpatrol]

How many resident hunters harvested 2 bucks?
When did most of the harvest occur?
Why?

Don't know exact number on how many people took 2 deer ? That would be a hard one to track down ?
Most of the harvest occurred on the switch over in between the any buck season and the 4pt season. everyone and their dog hit it a few days before the switch and a few days after.. right in the middle of the prime rut !

Why you ask... I guess its fun to kill a little shit buck for meat and then try to kill anything with 4pts on its head for some more... greedy ??? maybe !

[willy442]

[quote=willy442;853118]

Please explain your statement here on how the Buck to Doe ratio has nothing to do with the future of the herd. I would like to see how it's has no ties to the conservation side of things.[quote]

[quote]
The buck:doe ratio is right around 20:100 in the Cariboo. There is no effect on the deer population until it is below 10:100. Most jurisdictions actually manage many of their mule deer populations below 20:100 and actually target post season ratios below 20:100.

My question was how is it not tied to Conservation. I never asked for ratio's.





Because it was the only any buck rut hunt in the Province and that was combined with antlerless LEH in the rut. The provincial target is a minimum of 20 bucks:100 does, so this was never a conservation concern, just that we had met that threshold so we had to adjust.

More ratios. I asked what killed the bucks.





Outfitters wanted more 'trophy bucks' and that was the managers attempt to fulfill that. The reasoning was that the non-selective harvest would increase the number of Class IV bucks, but as already stated it didn't world because there was no co-ordination with other regions.

I'm sure the residents never enjoyed the rule change by your post. Looks like they tried to create more opportunity to me and now we've got another experiment trying to fix the trip south we took on the last one.




Typically someone who is concerned will attempt to inform themselves about an issue, correctly identify the problem and come up with a solution. There's no room for your thought process in that sentence.[/
Typically in the world of conservation I've noticed that you spend a major amount of time reading papers authored by a good cross section people supposedly in the know on the questions I asked. Being a BC resident hunter concerned for our provinces continued hunting opportunities and a supporter of the B.C. Resident Hunter Fund. I felt some one such as yourself could answer my questions. I guess all I've got left is to support the fellow living there has seen the reduction in the herd with his own eyes and is now fighting to make things right again.

[Snowpatrol]

do you really have proof that the guides were rallying the indians??

NO he doesn't ..... The funny thing is... if there is a general open season on a certain animal like deer... the outfitters, just like the residents have no quota ! It would have benefitted the outfitters as well as the residents... It was an uproar from the native side only ! If and when there is an LEH SEASON, that is when the outfitters get put on quota ! Outfitters can take as many deer hunters as they want because it is an open season for residents.. Alot of the problem between residents and outfitters are all the misconceptions from uniformed people and rumors !

[GoatGuy]

True.. and if the season goes back to the way it was 2 yrs ago a 2 buck slaughter, like all the residents want the GO's and the residents will have F.A. to hunt period ! I've hunted there for many years.... I've seen the BRUTAL decline in numbers and in quality ! Its time for some people and the BCWF to pull their head out of their a$$es !


Don't know exact number on how many people took 2 deer ? That would be a hard one to track down ?
Most of the harvest occurred on the switch over in between the any buck season and the 4pt season. everyone and their dog hit it a few days before the switch and a few days after.. right in the middle of the prime rut !

Why you ask... I guess its fun to kill a little shit buck for meat and then try to kill anything with 4pts on its head for some more... greedy ??? maybe !

So let me understand it.

The reason for the decline was the 2 buck slaughter, but you have no idea how many people harvested 2 bucks?

Unfortunately that's as far as I go on this one.

[Kody94]

NO he doesn't ..... The funny thing is... if there is a general open season on a certain animal like deer... the outfitters, just like the residents have no quota ! It would have benefitted the outfitters as well as the residents... It was an uproar from the native side only ! If and when there is an LEH SEASON, that is when the outfitters get put on quota ! Outfitters can take as many deer hunters as they want because it is an open season for residents.. Alot of the problem between residents and outfitters are all the misconceptions from uniformed people and rumors !

I am not sure about Reg 5, but I know G/Os in other parts of the province do not support the spike/fork GOS seasons on the misconstrued notion that it will impact the number (and quality) of mature bulls available on quota/leh, and because it will put more hunters in the field at a time when there was limited pressure on moose because of the quota and leh.

If the G/Os do not support the spike/fork season (on whatever basis), its not altogether unlikely that the would side with FNs on it.

[Fisher-Dude]

Moose in region 5 are on quota, whether there is a spike/fork GOS or not. GOs hate S/F seasons because it's opportunity for resident hunters, but the GOs can't sell a S/F hunt to their fat Yanks who only want the biggest set of antlers for the wall. The GOs don't want to "spoil" their clients' trophy hunts by seeing a few residents out enjoying the bush looking for a moose for the dinner table.

Plain and simple.

[willy442]

So let me understand it.

The reason for the decline was the 2 buck slaughter, but you have no idea how many people harvested 2 bucks?

Unfortunately that's as far as I go on this one.

A better question yet is GG can you come up with numbers on how many more hunters went to the region on account of the 2 deer season in the rut. Then after starting at the basics lets look at how many took 2 for boths resi's and non's.:)

[GoatGuy]

Please explain your statement here on how the Buck to Doe ratio has nothing to do with the future of the herd. I would like to see how it's has no ties to the conservation side of things.
My question was how is it not tied to Conservation. I never asked for ratio's.
More ratios. I asked what killed the bucks.

I'm sure the residents never enjoyed the rule change by your post. Looks like they tried to create more opportunity to me and now we've got another experiment trying to fix the trip south we took on the last one.

Typically in the world of conservation I've noticed that you spend a major amount of time reading papers authored by a good cross section people supposedly in the know on the questions I asked. Being a BC resident hunter concerned for our provinces continued hunting opportunities and a supporter of the B.C. Resident Hunter Fund. I felt some one such as yourself could answer my questions. I guess all I've got left is to support the fellow living there has seen the reduction in the herd with his own eyes and is now fighting to make things right again.

The changes were not related to conservation they were related to the harvest strategy, which is not based on conservation but on other issues, such as social and political. Residents and outfitters did not support the change.

How a person can be so uniformed and still make a decision on something is beyond my level of comprehension. There are plenty of anti-hunters who have already made up their minds before they open them. They would side with your rationalization and thought process. This truly defines ignorance.

If you have a question or would like some information please feel free to ask.

[GoatGuy]

A better question yet is GG can you come up with numbers on how many more hunters went to the region on account of the 2 deer season in the rut. Then after starting at the basics lets look at how many took 2 for boths resi's and non's.:)

The bag limit for residents was ALWAYS 2 mule deer in Region 5.

The change that increased the buck harvest was moving to the any buck season during the rut and releasing antlerless permits at the same time.

Ignorance.

[willy442]

The changes were not related to conservation they were related to the harvest strategy, which is not based on conservation but on other issues, such as social and political. Residents and outfitters did not support the change.

How a person can be so uniformed and still make a decision on something is beyond my level of comprehension. There are plenty of anti-hunters who have already made up their minds before they open them. They would side with your rationalization and thought process. This truly defines ignorance.

If you have a question or would like some information please feel free to ask.

Now a harvest strategy is not related to conservation! Why is this so in region 5 and in other regions they are directly related? I'm trying to follow your scientific approach to these issue's, but I'm not getting much feed back directly answering my questions.

[willy442]

The bag limit for residents was ALWAYS 2 mule deer in Region 5.

The change that increased the buck harvest was moving to the any buck season during the rut and releasing antlerless permits at the same time.

Ignorance.

I know it was 2 deer. My question was how many more went there because of the season change.

[GoatGuy]

Now a harvest strategy is not related to conservation! Why is this so in region 5 and in other regions they are directly related? I'm trying to follow your scientific approach to these issue's, but I'm not getting much feed back directly answering my questions.

Because the minimum buck:doe ratio is 20:100. Conservation comes into play at less than 10:100. We don't have buck:doe ratios that low.

[Fisher-Dude]

The deer population was continuing to expand at ~15% per year even with buck:doe ratios below 20:100. Thus, the ratio was not a conservation concern, as sperm supply was more than adequate.

Does that help your comprehension, Willy?

[willy442]

Because the minimum buck:doe ratio is 20:100. Conservation comes into play at less than 10:100. We don't have buck:doe ratios that low.

O.K. so the best you have is a scientific reasoning that the Buck to Doe ratio is within the limits acceptable by the people with the degree in thier back pocket.

Now that the deer herds are supposedly decimated in the area by local people are we still within those ratio's.

Again who killed the deer?

[willy442]

The deer population was continuing to expand at ~15% per year even with buck:doe ratios below 20:100. Thus, the ratio was not a conservation concern, as sperm supply was more than adequate.

Does that help your comprehension, Willy?

Thanks FD just what I needed was a clearer picture of the situation.:-D

[Fisher-Dude]

I looked through some old correspondence and found the second deer figure: only between 1 and 1.5% of region 5 mule deer harvest was the second deer during the 2 buck season limit period.

[horshur]

the problem is not guide outfitters or residents or indians it is the fact that there is no mission statement for MOE or MOF. They have no grand objective. They sit and listen to the special interest groups and do what is the best politically.

[Kody94]

Now that the deer herds are supposedly decimated in the area by local people are we still within those ratio's.

Again who killed the deer?

I think decimated is in the eye of the beholder. I've never lived there, but the numbers seem far from decimated to me in my relatively recent albiet fairly limited experience there.

As I understood it, mule deer numbers in some parts of the region were considered to be approaching carrying capacity. I also understood that the buck:doe ratio was in the neighborhood of 15:100 in some parts of the region, and there was a little concern about that (didn't want it to slip lower). The doe harvest was supposed to address the issue of high deer numbers, and the objective to reduce the buck harvest (removal of two buck limit and the any buck season from the rut).

I don't recall the issue being that the herd had been decimated.

Anyone got population data showing a decimation, resulting from the 2 buck "slaughter" or anything else?

[Fisher-Dude]

Region 5 average was 19.3:100 across all surveyed MUs, just before the latest season change. One area of one MU was, I believe, in that 15:100 range, while some others were 24:100.

19.3 is, statistically, at the provincial minimum of 20:100.

[Kody94]

Region 5 average was 19.3:100 across all surveyed MUs, just before the latest season change. One area of one MU was, I believe, in that 15:100 range, while some others were 24:100.

19.3 is, statistically, at the provincial minimum of 20:100.
Those numbers are ringing a bell. Thanks. Was there any concern with the overall population size?

[Fisher-Dude]

Hunters in an uproar (http://www.welcometowilliamslake.ca/index.php/the-news/regional-news/374-hunters-in-an-uproar.html)
Wednesday, 14 October 2009 18:02 | http://www.welcometowilliamslake.ca/images/M_images/pdf_button.png (http://www.welcometowilliamslake.ca/index.php/the-news/regional-news/374-hunters-in-an-uproar.pdf) http://www.welcometowilliamslake.ca/images/M_images/printButton.png (http://www.welcometowilliamslake.ca/index.php/the-news/regional-news/374-hunters-in-an-uproar.html?tmpl=component&print=1&layout=default&page=) http://www.welcometowilliamslake.ca/images/M_images/emailButton.png (http://www.welcometowilliamslake.ca/index.php/component/mailto/?tmpl=component&link=aHR0cDovL3d3dy53ZWxjb21ldG93aWxsaWFtc2xha2UuY 2EvaW5kZXgucGhwL3RoZS1uZXdzL3JlZ2lvbmFsLW5ld3MvMzc 0LWh1bnRlcnMtaW4tYW4tdXByb2FyLmh0bWw%3D)

News
By LeRae Haynes
New restrictions for mule deer and moose hunting have hunters in an uproar, according to Jacques Drisdelle, Regional President Cariboo Chilcotin BC Wildlife Federation. During September, hunters were restricted to four-point bucks or larger, can hunt any buck in October, but can only hunt four-point or larger bucks for three weeks in November. For ten days in November, there is no deer hunting at all, and the bag limit has also been reduced from two bucks to one.
“I’ve had lots of feedback from people and talked to a lot of hunters this weekend and they are very upset,” he said. “They feel that everything is screwed up, and they have a right to be angry---what has happened is very significant.”
http://www.welcometowilliamslake.ca/images/stories/news/101409_huntersuproar.jpg
(Photo: Jacques Drisdelle, Regional President Cariboo Chilcotin BC Wildlife Federation)
The hunting restrictions were announced this spring, and in late August a group of eight retired senior wildlife biologists with extensive BC wildlife management experience wrote a letter to Minister of Environment Barry Penner. (Read the letter by clicking here.) (http://www.welcometowilliamslake.ca/pressrelease/Joint_Letter_to_Minister_re_hunting_restrictions.p df)
The letter, according to Jacques Drisdelle, created a firestorm in Victoria. “Basically, they said that the deer and moose management in this area is screwed up and they called on Minister Penner to implement an independent review of management strategies,” Jacques said.
Minister Barry Penner answered the letter with one of his own in August, and Jacques said that there is a meeting scheduled with the Minister in Victoria on October 20. (Read Minister Penner's letter of responce by clicking here.) (http://www.welcometowilliamslake.ca/images/stories/news/MinisterPennershuntingresponse.pdf)
He explained that one of the co-signers of the letter to Minister Penner, Ray Demarchi (retired BC Chief of Wildlife) created two reports based on the governments’ own numbers. “Everywhere else in the province, the management of Mule Deer and moose are very different than they are here---hunter harvest and hunter numbers are increasing everywhere else, but are decreasing here.”
He said that they plan to ask Minister Penner to order an independent review of the practices in this region. “We don’t feel that we are being heard, or that our concerns are being addressed. We’d like some straight answers,” he continued. “We’ve got Victoria telling us that these regulation changes were recommended by our own Regional Wildlife Manager, and we’ve got our region saying that the changes were recommended by Victoria.”
In a recent discussion between local and regional Ministry of Wildlife staff members, according to Jacques, it was stated that this region is too centrally located, and that if the hunting restrictions are liberalized, it would attract too many hunters from BC’s lower mainland, and that they would shoot everything off.
“First of all, why is Region Three, just to the south of us and closer to the lower mainland, not experiencing that?” he said. “And on the other hand, Region Seven to the north of us and even farther from Vancouver, has hunters in huge numbers: local hunters don’t want to go in there because it’s jam- packed with out-of-region hunters.”
He said that restricting hunting in this region is robbing us of revenue. “People may stop here for gas, but they don’t stop here for motels, restaurants, propane or shopping. These restrictions are stopping our area from being a destination.
“The Ministry has a policy to recruit and retain hunters and increases their numbers, but they’re ignoring that policy,” he explained. “In this region, it’s as if their number one clients are First Nations hunters and second are the guide outfitters, and hunting has been made very difficult for resident hunters, who are their last priority,” he said.
He explained that at a recent meeting with the Cattlemen’s Association he was asked for his opinion about the enormous costs to ranchers caused by wildlife, and why more deer couldn’t be shot. “I told them that we’ve got too many deer because of the practices of our local wildlife branch,” he said. “I said that if we had staff here who knew what they were doing and behaved accordingly, we wouldn’t have these problems.”
Resident hunters who hunt for food are being forced to become trophy hunters, according to Jacques. “We’re forced to hunt four-point bucks----someone explain to me the validity of hunting a four-pointer in September. That’s just ludicrous. You go ask hunters, ‘Are you looking for a big, huge buck to hang on your wall, or are you hunting for meat?’ Nine out of ten will tell you that it’s about harvesting meat and about the enjoyment of the hunt,” he said. “They don’t want the head for the wall: they want the meat.”
He said that a lot of disrepute is brought on hunting by the guide outfitters. “Hunting is not about the shooting and it’s not about the killing,” he said. “It’s pursuing and harvesting something and having the meat to support you and your family for the rest of the year.”

[Fisher-Dude]

Aug. 25, 2009

Joint Letter to the Honourable Barry Penner, Minister of Environment,
on the need for improved deer and moose management in
Region 5, Cariboo-Chilcotin.

Dear Minister Penner,
The eight signatories to this letter are retired senior wildlife biologists who have extensive wildlife management experience in the province of British Columbia. We write to express our concerns about the lack of biologically sound management strategies for mule deer and moose in the Cariboo-Chilcotin region.

This year’s regulation changes saw the continued erosion of hunting opportunities for BC resident deer and moose hunters. The 100 Mile Free Press recently published several letters and articles from local residents complaining about the lack of hunting opportunities in the face of abundant deer and moose populations. Visiting resident hunters are seeking hunting opportunities in other regions or quitting hunting altogether, which has impacts on the regional economy — an economy which is already suffering from the severe economic downturn in the forest industry.

Overly conservative management of expanding deer populations results in damage to
deer habitat; private gardens and ranchers’ hayfields; attracts dangerous predators to the urban/forest fringe; and can result in increased vehicle/wildlife collisions. In numerous meetings and in correspondence with local BC Wildlife Federation members and in newspaper articles, the regional manager continues to rationalize his actions as being necessary to meet the needs of First Nations and for a perceived need to reduce the harvest of antlered and antler-less deer in order to restore the sex ratio.

As experienced BC wildlife managers, we recognize and respect the province’s
responsibilities for conservation and its fiduciary responsibilities to First Nations. It is our professional judgment, however, based on population inventory data provided by the Williams Lake Wildlife Office and the provincial Annual Hunter Sample and anecdotal reports of experienced hunters and ranchers, including some of our own observations, that deer and moose populations have reached and may be exceeding the carrying capacity of their habitats. Responsible wildlife management puts conservation first, considers all interests and prescribes sustainable harvest levels, which, in the case of the Cariboo-Chilcotin, means greater hunting opportunities, not fewer as prescribed by the Williams Lake regional manager. The overly-restrictive regulations that have been implemented in Region 5 over the past 10 to 12 years place the deer and moose populations at risk for a severe overwinter die-off such as occurred in the Peace River in the 2006-2007 winter. Such die-offs
occurred in the Cariboo and Chilcotin in the past when deer and moose populations
exceeded the carrying capacity of their habitats and benefitted no one.

In our view, the actions of the Williams Lake regional manager are contrary to your
ministry’s wildlife management policies. Instead of encouraging more hunters through
more liberal harvests to meet the goals of your ministry’s Resident Hunter Recruitment and Retention Strategy and simplifying the regulations as prescribed in the Provincial Wildlife Harvest Strategy, the changes that were adopted for 2009-2010 added more restrictions and complexity to the already overly complex regulations.
Adjacent regions, namely the Omineca and Thompson-Nicola, have been administering successful moose management programs over a period of 25 years that sustain healthy, productive moose herds, produce more moose with fewer complaints and enjoy a high degree of public support. Despite these excellent examples, the Region 5 regional manager refuses to begin implementing a similar strategy. We respectfully request that you institute an independent review of Region 5’s mule deer and moose management strategies.

Pursuing your government’s goal of science-informed and consensus-based resource
management planning will not be possible as long as key members of your administration fail to fully support your policies and develop their own unilateral approaches to wildlife management.

Yours sincerely,

Dan Blower, retired BC Ungulate Coordinator
Ken Child, retired Omineca Region, Wildlife Section Head
Ray Demarchi, retired BC Chief of Wildlife
Fred Harper, retired Thompson-Nicola, Regional Wildlife Section Head
Doug Janz, retired Vancouver Region, Regional Wildlife Section Head
Dave Low, retired Thompson-Nicola, Regional Wildlife Biologist
Bill Munro, retired BC Wildlife Branch, Deputy Director
Bruce Pendergast, retired BC Manager, Wildlife Inventory Section

[GoatGuy]

Those numbers are ringing a bell. Thanks. Was there any concern with the overall population size?

Too many particularly in ag conflict.

[Fisher-Dude]

Those numbers are ringing a bell. Thanks. Was there any concern with the overall population size?


It is our professional judgment, however, based on population inventory data provided by the Williams Lake Wildlife Office and the provincial Annual Hunter Sample and anecdotal reports of experienced hunters and ranchers, including some of our own observations, that deer and moose populations have reached and may be exceeding the carrying capacity of their habitats.

[MuleyMadness]

It is our professional judgment, however, based on population inventory data provided by the Williams Lake Wildlife Office and the provincial Annual Hunter Sample and anecdotal reports of experienced hunters and ranchers, including some of our own observations, that deer and moose populations have reached and may be exceeding the carrying capacity of their habitats.

Yeah but how many of those have huge racks that we can use to induce fat Americans to spend $10K - $12K on a guided hunt FD...I mean that's what matters, isn't it? :twisted:

[Kody94]

Too many particularly in ag conflict.


It is our professional judgment, however, based on population inventory data provided by the Williams Lake Wildlife Office and the provincial Annual Hunter Sample and anecdotal reports of experienced hunters and ranchers, including some of our own observations, that deer and moose populations have reached and may be exceeding the carrying capacity of their habitats.

They must have gotten decimated after that, eh? :wink:

[Jagermeister]

do you really have proof that the guides were rallying the indians??
No, sadly I can't substantiate the claim.
However, the indians throughout that part of the Cariboo-Chilcotin were not that organized at that time to create a ruckus on so short notice without some impetus from some other source. The widely held belief at that time was that the only other party that would benefit from curtailing a spike-fork horn opening on the west side of the Fraser were none other than the G/Os for that season. Full closure followed the next year.
I think that the resident hunters in BC have sacrificed enough for the recovery of moose populations in Region 5 and it's about time we are rewarded for that sacrifice.
It should be noted that moose did not exist this side of the rockies prior to the white man entering the area. Moose followed the white man to the interior of BC so as stakeholders go, we should have equal opportunity for moose.

[GoatGuy]

They must have gotten decimated after that, eh? :wink:

The wildlife there gets a copy of the regs and commits suicide regularly as opposed to dying a slow death due to old age and too much competition.

One thing wildlife knows is hunters will not keep them at a level where they are kept healthy and productive.

[coach]

The wildlife there gets a copy of the regs and commits suicide regularly as opposed to dying a slow death due to old age and too much competition.

One thing wildlife knows is hunters will not keep them at a level where they are kept healthy and productive.

Finally an explanation to all the carnage along the highway between 100 Mile and Quesnel over the last 10 years. Suicidal deer! Who would have known?

[dana]

If the outfitters of Region 5 want trophy muleys they should be asking for the exact same regs as Region 3. Doug Jury has got er figured out and knows how to grow big bucks. My buddies and I consistantly kill monsters and make the GOABC's muleys look freakin pathetic. You'd think that the pros that get paid to do it for a living would be able to keep up with a pack of weekend warriors but nope, they get their asses handed to them every year. :)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/matthew_brown69/2010buck.jpg

[elkdom]

If the outfitters of Region 5 want trophy muleys they should be asking for the exact same regs as Region 3. Doug Jury has got er figured out and knows how to grow big bucks. My buddies and I consistantly kill monsters and make the GOABC's muleys look freakin pathetic. You'd think that the pros that get paid to do it for a living would be able to keep up with a pack of weekend warriors but nope, they get their asses handed to them every year. :)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/matthew_brown69/2010buck.jpg
lol,, how can "they" kill monster mulies ? if "they" can find them ? dont know where to look?
if "they" cant find them ?,,,, there must NOT be any? lol:mrgreen:

[willy442]

lol,, how can "they" kill monster mulies ? if "they" can find them ? dont know where to look?
if "they" cant find them ?,,,, there must NOT be any? lol:mrgreen:

Dana; Congratulations on your ability to take big Mule Deer; However let me clear something up. When you have a paying client with you it is not always possible to spend countless days scouting the Big Bucks as you do. Also by the time most clients are able to afford to come on these kinds of hunts they no longer have the legs to compete with you and your buddies. So although you are able to successfully harvest big deer, you really don't do any better than anybody else that has the time and physical ability to directly compete with you. Sorry but you haven't reached hero status yet in my book. Yes I have a big Mule Deer and an even bigger White Tail.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Dana; Congratulations on your ability to take big Mule Deer; However let me clear something up. When you have a paying client with you it is not always possible to spend countless days scouting the Big Bucks as you do. Also by the time most clients are able to afford to come on these kinds of hunts they no longer have the legs to compete with you and your buddies. So although you are able to successfully harvest big deer, you really don't do any better than anybody else that has the time and physical ability to directly compete with you. Sorry but you haven't reached hero status yet in my book. Yes I have a big Mule Deer and an even bigger White Tail.

Bingo. They want to be able to ride around on their horses and "shop" for a big muley....instead of actually earning one.....but that would come at the expense of resident hunters.

Did your fat out-of-shape sheep hunters deserve a nice ram?? :?
Maybe we should change the regulations to suit that type of clientele?

SSS

[Snowpatrol]

You anti GO's guys need to pull your heads out of your asses and smell the outdoors... The GO's do not over harvest ! Don't you think that the GO's need to look after the herds so they will have a business to run for more than three yrs ! Wake Up Fisher Dude ! You are the most anti G.O. guy I see on here ! I'm a resident hunter... You need to get the chip off your shoulder and open up your brain to new theories.. they aren't all one sided ! Region 5 moose don't have much of a market for guide outfitters.. It's a meat hunt ! Not a trophy hunt.. For someone to get a trophy canadian moose they will go further north to region 6 or 7 lets face it !

[Snowpatrol]

I looked through some old correspondence and found the second deer figure: only between 1 and 1.5% of region 5 mule deer harvest was the second deer during the 2 buck season limit period.

How do they know this ????? I didn't receive a deer harvest questionnaire. They obviously didn't ask every hunter that went to region 5 ???

[Stone Sheep Steve]

How do they know this ????? I didn't receive a deer harvest questionnaire. They obviously didn't ask every hunter that went to region 5 ???


It's a "percent figure" taken from harvest questionaire. It's not an absolute number....nevermind.

SSS

[CanuckShooter]

Dana; Congratulations on your ability to take big Mule Deer; However let me clear something up. When you have a paying client with you it is not always possible to spend countless days scouting the Big Bucks as you do. Also by the time most clients are able to afford to come on these kinds of hunts they no longer have the legs to compete with you and your buddies. So although you are able to successfully harvest big deer, you really don't do any better than anybody else that has the time and physical ability to directly compete with you. Sorry but you haven't reached hero status yet in my book. Yes I have a big Mule Deer and an even bigger White Tail.



I thought that was the guides job??? How do you guide a paying hunter to an animal if you don't have any idea it's there??? Go figure.

The answer to all this brouhaha in Reg 5 is simple, give all the tags to GOs and let them dole them out to us, we all know they are upfront and honest with how they wish to divvy up the spoils, right??

[GoatGuy]

How do they know this ????? I didn't receive a deer harvest questionnaire. They obviously didn't ask every hunter that went to region 5 ???

It's called sampling, it saves money and produces virtually the same result.

[willy442]

Bingo. They want to be able to ride around on their horses and "shop" for a big muley....instead of actually earning one.....but that would come at the expense of resident hunters.

Did your fat out-of-shape sheep hunters deserve a nice ram?? :?
Maybe we should change the regulations to suit that type of clientele?

SSS


I sense something between jealousy and tears in your post. To answer your question Yes my fat out of shape sheep hunter could afford to hire the equipment and knowledge we had to assist his fat ass in killing a Ram. Just because you are either to cheap or can't afford to set yourself up in a manner that gives you equal ease of transportation by no means gives you any more right to the animal. I would also suggest that if my fat assed dude had not come hunting or taken a Ram you would be no better off and probably would still be shedding tears on something else.:-D

[Snowpatrol]

It's called sampling, it saves money and produces virtually the same result.

Bullshit ! They have no idea how many people take deer out of region 5 !

[GoatGuy]

Bullshit ! They have no idea how many people take deer out of region 5 !


Ok then. :roll:

[CanuckShooter]

Bullshit ! They have no idea how many people take deer out of region 5 !


I gotta agree.....at the best it's a guess, and not a very good one at that. Just ask them how many deer were taken by FNs....killed by cars & trains, eaten by wolves, cats and yotes??

[CanuckShooter]

I sense something between jealousy and tears in your post. To answer your question Yes my fat out of shape sheep hunter could afford to hire the equipment and knowledge we had to assist his fat ass in killing a Ram. Just because you are either to cheap or can't afford to set yourself up in a manner that gives you equal ease of transportation by no means gives you any more right to the animal. I would also suggest that if my fat assed dude had not come hunting or taken a Ram you would be no better off and probably would still be shedding tears on something else.:-D


He would have been more likely to have drawn a LEH for that sheep that you sold to the highest bidder if he hadn't bought the hunt...kinda surprised you'd call him a 'fat assed dude' after he put food on your table??:mrgreen:

[willy442]

[quote]I thought that was the guides job??? How do you guide a paying hunter to an animal if you don't have any idea it's there??? Go figure.

I have never in my guiding career sold a hunter an animal prior to it being killed. Once an animal was harvested yes we charged a kill fee. What we did sell was the service to take you into our alotted hunting country that had an abundance of wildlife. The hunts were all fair chase, nothing was pre spotted.


The answer to all this brouhaha in Reg 5 is simple, give all the tags to GOs and let them dole them out to us, we all know they are upfront and honest with how they wish to divvy up the spoils, right??

Please tell what is wrong with the tag being issued to the guide. These out of country clients book in advance and typically by the time the LEH draws come out it's to damn late to book these hunts. The method used now is the best scenario for selling these low budget hunts. If you wanted to open up your purse strings you could actually purchase one or even all these tags.

[Kody94]

Dana; Congratulations on your ability to take big Mule Deer; However let me clear something up. When you have a paying client with you it is not always possible to spend countless days scouting the Big Bucks as you do. Also by the time most clients are able to afford to come on these kinds of hunts they no longer have the legs to compete with you and your buddies. So although you are able to successfully harvest big deer, you really don't do any better than anybody else that has the time and physical ability to directly compete with you. Sorry but you haven't reached hero status yet in my book. Yes I have a big Mule Deer and an even bigger White Tail.

In other words, there is not enough margin on a muley hunt for the G/O to be able to afford having three or four spotters in addition to the guide and wrangler (like there is in sheep). I don't buy the physical conditioning thing, since outfitters do manage to get those clients to sheep and goats.

To get clients to pay big bucks for a muley hunt, so you can overcome their short-comings with extra manpower, you'd have to be able to offer exceptional trophy quality. To do that, you'd have to limit the harvest of bucks overall and let more of them grow old. Oh, wait, that's what they are trying to do. :)

[willy442]

He would have been more likely to have drawn a LEH for that sheep that you sold to the highest bidder if he hadn't bought the hunt...kinda surprised you'd call him a 'fat assed dude' after he put food on your table??:mrgreen:

Wanted to put it out there in language you,SSS and FD could relate to and understand.

[Devilbear]

I sense something between jealousy and tears in your post. To answer your question Yes my fat out of shape sheep hunter could afford to hire the equipment and knowledge we had to assist his fat ass in killing a Ram. Just because you are either to cheap or can't afford to set yourself up in a manner that gives you equal ease of transportation by no means gives you any more right to the animal. I would also suggest that if my fat assed dude had not come hunting or taken a Ram you would be no better off and probably would still be shedding tears on something else.:-D


This is the crux of the entire issue, IMHO and it is simply stated in one query.

Does a BC citizen-resident hunter HAVE a greater "right" to a given game animal than the foreign client of a GO?

If, we accept that ANY "non-resident alien" hunter has ANY "right" to hunt here or kill BC game, then, we are done as far as sovereignity and our control over our resources. I totally reject ANY "rights" for ANYONE who is not a BC citizen and while I firmly believe in honouring a contract made with the foreign hunter when he purchases his licences, this does NOT give him "equal" status to mine or that of any other legitimate BC citizen.

The GOs would benefit in the longterm, by an acceptance of the various policies that favour we residents as the alternative may well be a public outcry over all foreign hunting in BC and that will inevitably result in it's elimination. The onus is on them as I see it and the next few years will determine what will happen.

[CanuckShooter]

[quote=willy442;853517][quote=CanuckShooter;853494]

I have never in my guiding career sold a hunter an animal prior to it being killed. Once an animal was harvested yes we charged a kill fee. What we did sell was the service to take you into our alotted hunting country that had an abundance of wildlife. The hunts were all fair chase, nothing was pre spotted.

you alluded to the idea that you didn't have the time to scout that the deer hunting braggart did, and that was the reason you couldn't get animals of the same quality. I still think if your guiding that at least some effort would have been put in before your paying hunter comes to ensure that suitable animals are in the area you plan on taking them???

?

Please tell what is wrong with the tag being issued to the guide. These out of country clients book in advance and typically by the time the LEH draws come out it's to damn late to book these hunts. The method used now is the best scenario for selling these low budget hunts. If you wanted to open up your purse strings you could actually purchase one or even all these tags.

they should just apply for leh tags the same as we do, and once they own the tag they could arrange for a guide service.....your last line is the reason that the whole business pizzes me off. BC Residents shouldn't have to apply for leh and get nothing, while some rich person can buy a tag. IMHO if there is a need for LEH, there should be no guided hunts available......unless you have the leh tag.

[willy442]

In other words, there is not enough margin on a muley hunt for the G/O to be able to afford having three or four spotters in addition to the guide and wrangler (like there is in sheep). I don't buy the physical conditioning thing, since outfitters do manage to get those clients to sheep and goats.

To get clients to pay big bucks for a muley hunt, so you can overcome their short-comings with extra manpower, you'd have to be able to offer exceptional trophy quality. To do that, you'd have to limit the harvest of bucks overall and let more of them grow old. Oh, wait, that's what they are trying to do. :)

No if you were to look in the Boone and Crockett. Typically more big deer are taken in the U.S.A. than here in Canada. The high paying client for deer hunts fails to exist.

To answer your first question on scouting. Look at the dollar factor. Some of these non residents pay in excess of 100,000.00 for special sheep permits. Take time out and day dream a little. If that was coming out of your pocket, would you not spend a bit more on some prescouting of areas looking to see where you wanted to go? Deer just don't have the same status on the world market. If they did Dana would have to find new country annually rather then hunt what his dad and grandpa showed him.:-D

[GoatGuy]

I gotta agree.....at the best it's a guess, and not a very good one at that. Just ask them how many deer were taken by FNs....killed by cars & trains, eaten by wolves, cats and yotes??

The reference was in regards to licensed hunter harvest.

Snowpatrol was complaining licensed hunters harvesting 2 bucks, and that was the reason the herd was 'decimated'. He didn't however have a clue as to how many people actually harvested two bucks - no idea at all. The harvest data indicates <2% of the harvest was a hunter taking a 'second buck'.

So now we've got a guy who says the hunters who killed 2 bucks shot off the bucks, but he has no idea how many people killed two bucks, and now the harvest data is wrong because he didn't get a hunter survey. Make any sense at all?

It's always troubling to find people who have an uninformed opinion and will then stick to their opinion even when there is no evidence of their claim and no way to substantiate it. I'm surprised there aren't more threads about burning witches and that the world is flat. It's ridiculous, really, that someone can be so far out of touch with reality and still believe their own baffle-gag when everything out there points in the OPPOSITE direction. And still they can't substantiate their claim with one iota of evidence, even anecdotal.

This is the way the anti's work, no information, all opinion and when you show them science they say "that isn't right, I don't believe you." Funny, hunters love to hate anti-hunters, but at times the ONLY thing that separates them is that one hates hunting and one likes it, not that they will represent their views with FACT. As there are far more people who don't hunt than do I would suggest this approach is detrimental to the future of hunting.

[CanuckShooter]

Wanted to put it out there in language you,SSS and FD could relate to and understand.


AT least my point was well made....SSS could have been far better off if your FA hunter couldn't buy the hunt....SSS would have higher odds of getting a once in a lifetime hunt....it's about who comes first...not who has the most money, that is the european system.

[Kirby]

Bullshit ! They have no idea how many people take deer out of region 5 !

Pull your head out of your ass. Go do some reading on sample variance, statistical analysis, random sample selection, random sample size then come back when you have a slight bit of knowledge and we can discuss this further.

Kirby

[willy442]

I have never in my guiding career sold a hunter an animal prior to it being killed. Once an animal was harvested yes we charged a kill fee. What we did sell was the service to take you into our alotted hunting country that had an abundance of wildlife. The hunts were all fair chase, nothing was pre spotted.

[QUOTE]
you alluded to the idea that you didn't have the time to scout that the deer hunting braggart did, and that was the reason you couldn't get animals of the same quality. I still think if your guiding that at least some effort would have been put in before your paying hunter comes to ensure that suitable animals are in the area you plan on taking them???


Thats right. Why would I go scout when I'm selling a hunt. Not an animal. With area knowledge and guide ability, I'm pretty damn sure we would be successful. Second to that if a nonresident was hunting a really big deer. He would not be coming to B.C. They have plenty of big deer in thier own country.
?

Please tell what is wrong with the tag being issued to the guide. These out of country clients book in advance and typically by the time the LEH draws come out it's to damn late to book these hunts. The method used now is the best scenario for selling these low budget hunts. If you wanted to open up your purse strings you could actually purchase one or even all these tags.

[QUOTE]
they should just apply for leh tags the same as we do, and once they own the tag they could arrange for a guide service.....your last line is the reason that the whole business pizzes me off. BC Residents shouldn't have to apply for leh and get nothing, while some rich person can buy a tag. IMHO if there is a need for LEH, there should be no guided hunts available......unless you have the leh tag.


This is your opinion because of Jealousy and no understanding on why it is set up in this manner. It's the same old anti guide Bitch, Bitch .Bitch.

[Snowpatrol]

I gotta agree.....at the best it's a guess, and not a very good one at that. Just ask them how many deer were taken by FNs....killed by cars & trains, eaten by wolves, cats and yotes??

When you see how they conduct their air surveys you will have no idea how they get those numbers in the first place ????

[willy442]

The reference was in regards to licensed hunter harvest.

Snowpatrol was complaining licensed hunters harvesting 2 bucks, and that was the reason the herd was 'decimated'. He didn't however have a clue as to how many people actually harvested two bucks - no idea at all. The harvest data indicates <2% of the harvest was a hunter taking a 'second buck'.

So now we've got a guy who says the hunters who killed 2 bucks shot off the bucks, but he has no idea how many people killed two bucks, and now the harvest data is wrong because he didn't get a hunter survey. Make any sense at all?

It's always troubling to find people who have an uninformed opinion and will then stick to their opinion even when there is no evidence of their claim and no way to substantiate it. I'm surprised there aren't more threads about burning witches and that the world is flat. It's ridiculous, really, that someone can be so far out of touch with reality and still believe their own baffle-gag when everything out there points in the OPPOSITE direction. And still they can't substantiate their claim with one iota of evidence, even anecdotal.

This is the way the anti's work, no information, all opinion and when you show them science they say "that isn't right, I don't believe you." Funny, hunters love to hate anti-hunters, but at times the ONLY thing that separates them is that one hates hunting and one likes it, not that they will represent their views with FACT. As there are far more people who don't hunt than do I would suggest this approach is detrimental to the future of hunting.

GG; Again you are hung up on how many hunters took 2 Bucks. I believe most hunters are conservation minded to some degree and probably those taking 2 bucks are not that important. The thing you seem to not want to recongnize is the fact that an opening like was implement there creates an O-Boy lets go there stimulant in hunters. So Many more went to that region and harvested Deer. Those that probably would have hunted elsewhere until the season change.

[willy442]

AT least my point was well made....SSS could have been far better off if your FA hunter couldn't buy the hunt....SSS would have higher odds of getting a once in a lifetime hunt....it's about who comes first...not who has the most money, that is the european system.

Be careful because with all the conflict here on hunting. We might not be that far off the same system.

[Snowpatrol]

Pull your head out of your ass. Go do some reading on sample variance, statistical analysis, random sample selection, random sample size then come back when you have a slight bit of knowledge and we can discuss this further.

Kirby

Bite me.... ! I have extensive in field knowledge in region 5 ! Not from a frickin desk where most of these bullshit numbers are made up !

What was the buck harvest in region 5 in 2009 ???????

[Jagermeister]

Dana; Congratulations on your ability to take big Mule Deer; However let me clear something up. When you have a paying client with you it is not always possible to spend countless days scouting the Big Bucks as you do. Also by the time most clients are able to afford to come on these kinds of hunts they no longer have the legs to compete with you and your buddies. So although you are able to successfully harvest big deer, you really don't do any better than anybody else that has the time and physical ability to directly compete with you. Sorry but you haven't reached hero status yet in my book. Yes I have a big Mule Deer and an even bigger White Tail.

"When you have a paying client with you it is not always possible to spend countless days scouting the Big Bucks as you do."

Is it not the job of the guide to spend the "countless days scouting the Big Bucks"? I was under that myth, that a guide pre-scouted the territories that he sold hunts in.

So much for the theory that the client at least has the best opportunity to get his monies worth and have a shot at a trophy animal.

Dana may not have hero status, but he is a damm fine hunter and were he a guide and I were a paying customer, he would be my choice. At least he pre-scouts his hunting domain.

[CanuckShooter]

The reference was in regards to licensed hunter harvest.

Snowpatrol was complaining licensed hunters harvesting 2 bucks, and that was the reason the herd was 'decimated'. He didn't however have a clue as to how many people actually harvested two bucks - no idea at all. The harvest data indicates <2% of the harvest was a hunter taking a 'second buck'.

So now we've got a guy who says the hunters who killed 2 bucks shot off the bucks, but he has no idea how many people killed two bucks, and now the harvest data is wrong because he didn't get a hunter survey. Make any sense at all?

It's always troubling to find people who have an uninformed opinion and will then stick to their opinion even when there is no evidence of their claim and no way to substantiate it. I'm surprised there aren't more threads about burning witches and that the world is flat. It's ridiculous, really, that someone can be so far out of touch with reality and still believe their own baffle-gag when everything out there points in the OPPOSITE direction. And still they can't substantiate their claim with one iota of evidence, even anecdotal.

This is the way the anti's work, no information, all opinion and when you show them science they say "that isn't right, I don't believe you." Funny, hunters love to hate anti-hunters, but at times the ONLY thing that separates them is that one hates hunting and one likes it, not that they will represent their views with FACT. As there are far more people who don't hunt than do I would suggest this approach is detrimental to the future of hunting.


It doesn't matter how many bucks are taken when your decimating the does......thousands and thousands of antlerless tags have been given out in the last few years in Region 5. ADD in the any buck season into november and you have a recipe for decimating the herds.....shouldn't take a biologist to figure that out.

[GoatGuy]

It doesn't matter how many bucks are taken when your decimating the does......thousands and thousands of antlerless tags have been given out in the last few years in Region 5. ADD in the any buck season into november and you have a recipe for decimating the herds.....shouldn't take a biologist to figure that out.

Two totally different issues.

The social issue is with the bucks, not the deer population.

[GoatGuy]

When you see how they conduct their air surveys you will have no idea how they get those numbers in the first place ????

Tell me how we should conduct mule deer inventory in the Cariboo. Start from scratch.

[Kirby]

Bite me.... ! I have extensive in field knowledge in region 5 ! Not from a frickin desk where most of these bullshit numbers are made up !

What was the buck harvest in region 5 in 2009 ???????

Wait you don't know? What about 2008? 2007? 2006? 2010? Have you done ANY background reading? or just assume what you see is everything?

Must be very very demanding to spend so much time out there allowing you to cover all of reg 5. Inventorying deer, getting post hunt counts.

Where are the deer declining?
Where are the over harvesting taking place?
What EVIDENCE do you have to back it up?
Did you take 2 bucks during the 2 buck limits?

Please give some solid information that is defensible, repeatable and observable.

[Kody94]

It doesn't matter how many bucks are taken when your decimating the does......thousands and thousands of antlerless tags have been given out in the last few years in Region 5. ADD in the any buck season into november and you have a recipe for decimating the herds.....shouldn't take a biologist to figure that out.

Who says the does are being decimated?

Did I miss the sarcasm? :)

[Kody94]

No if you were to look in the Boone and Crockett. Typically more big deer are taken in the U.S.A. than here in Canada. The high paying client for deer hunts fails to exist.

To answer your first question on scouting. Look at the dollar factor. Some of these non residents pay in excess of 100,000.00 for special sheep permits. Take time out and day dream a little. If that was coming out of your pocket, would you not spend a bit more on some prescouting of areas looking to see where you wanted to go? Deer just don't have the same status on the world market.

You managed to disagree with me by agreeing with me. Cool. :wink: lol

[willy442]

"When you have a paying client with you it is not always possible to spend countless days scouting the Big Bucks as you do."

Is it not the job of the guide to spend the "countless days scouting the Big Bucks"? I was under that myth, that a guide pre-scouted the territories that he sold hunts in.

So much for the theory that the client at least has the best opportunity to get his monies worth and have a shot at a trophy animal.

Dana may not have hero status, but he is a damm fine hunter and were he a guide and I were a paying customer, he would be my choice. At least he pre-scouts his hunting domain.

Your post again relates to not having even a remote idea of what a G/O sells. Please read and see if you can comprehend. The G/O sells the services to take you hunting for a pre stipulated spiecies of game with in an allotted area. He at no time sells you an animal. In the case of some Elk farms and game farms, yes they sell you an animal.

If you read my post. I agreed Dana is a good Deer hunter. However I know people just as successful that spend far less time due to constraints on thier free time. It is alright that he is a legend in his own mind, with his success. I had the same ability over the years with sheep and I'm also damn proud of it. 100 plus rams on the ground in my time. To belittle the guides the way he is, is the problem I have with him. Not his ability to hunt.

[CanuckShooter]

Two totally different issues.

The social issue is with the bucks, not the deer population.

To Quote:
""Snowpatrol was complaining licensed hunters harvesting 2 bucks, and that was the reason the herd was 'decimated'. He didn't however have a clue as to how many people actually harvested two bucks - no idea at all. The harvest data indicates <2% of the harvest was a hunter taking a 'second buck'.""


And then use stats to say the reason the buck numbers are down is due to taking two in a season.....
someone is manipulating things metinks.

[GoatGuy]

To Quote:
""Snowpatrol was complaining licensed hunters harvesting 2 bucks, and that was the reason the herd was 'decimated'. He didn't however have a clue as to how many people actually harvested two bucks - no idea at all. The harvest data indicates <2% of the harvest was a hunter taking a 'second buck'.""


And then use stats to say the reason the buck numbers are down is due to taking two in a season.....
someone is manipulating things metinks.

The stats say that less than 2% of the harvest came from the second buck being harvested, meaning VERY FEW were harvested due to the 2 buck bag limit.

This means the 2 buck bag limit is not the reason the buck harvest increased.

Does that make sense?

[CanuckShooter]

The stats say that less than 2% of the harvest came from the second buck being harvested, meaning VERY FEW were harvested due to the 2 buck bag limit.

This means the 2 buck bag limit is not the reason the buck harvest increased.

Does that make sense?


""The bag limit for residents was ALWAYS 2 mule deer in Region 5.

The change that increased the buck harvest was moving to the any buck season during the rut and releasing antlerless permits at the same time.

Ignorance.""
__________________

Totally makes sense.

[Snowpatrol]

Bc residents and BCWF want quantity... All the BC residents that I know and the GO's want quality ! It can't happen in the same place, but it can happen in the same province ! Check out alberta's mule deer ! Let me know what you think.. I'm done with all the anti outfitter bull shit on this site.. I can't see your faces... but I know its green in color.. Green with envy that you didn't have the balls to put up the money and become an outfitter and do what you love to do for a living ! Have a nice one way discussion and hack the outfitter and residents that actually want a quality hunt ! And not on private land like some us have access to ! Why does one of the head honcho's from BCWF take his family to Alberta for quality Mule deer ??? Oh thats right he can't find any in BC !

[GoatGuy]

Bc residents and BCWF want quantity... All the BC residents that I know and the GO's want quality ! It can't happen in the same place, but it can happen in the same province ! Check out alberta's mule deer ! Let me know what you think.. I'm done with all the anti outfitter bull shit on this site.. I can't see your faces... but I know its green in color.. Green with envy that you didn't have the balls to put up the money and become an outfitter and do what you love to do for a living ! Have a nice one way discussion and hack the outfitter and residents that actually want a quality hunt ! And not on private land like some us have access to !

That's not exactly accurate.

I think first, BC residents and BCWF want sustainable wildlife management. Stockpiling wildlife is not sustainable.

Secondly, most BC residents do want quantity, and yes that is a fact. Most people in BC who are resident hunters want to go out with friends/family and fill the freezer. I don't think there's anything wrong with that and I certainly don't think 93,000 resident hunters should be told by 220 outfitters and 1,500 resident hunters who want to shoot trophy bucks how they should hunt.

Third, it can happen in the same place. We're killing and passing up lots of 170+ bucks every year without skipping a beat and it isn't difficult. Alberta isn't all that great and it's a totally different type of hunting. Most of the hunting is private land and the bigger bucks typically come off properties where permission isn't given out to everyone, but more often than not a select few. Yes, I've hunted there and to tell you the truth I didn't go last year even though I drew because we're passing up the same caliber of bucks here as they have out there.

If you can't find a 'quality hunt' in BC it's strictly due to your inabilities or laziness as a hunter. We have the most huntable public land and one of the lowest hunter densities in North America. I get the impression you figure you should be able to ride around in a truck, not see anyone else, and shoot whopper bucks. Sorry, that isn't the way hunting works in most parts of the world.

Lastly, your issue was about the buck harvest and science. You're arguing it and saying it isn't right without any evidence to substantiate your claim.

If you don't agree with the science come up with something better. Don't confuse what you want (trophy bucks) with sustainable wildlife management. Those are two very separate issues.

[BCrams]

Snowpatrol -

Whats your definition of quality?

Don't tell me its big bucks because I can safely say right now there are huge mule deer in Region 5. A good friend of mine saw a legitimate 190+ buck last November off the highway that he watched for 10 minutes and I trust his word on it. You're just not finding them. Perhaps your definition of quality is to drive your truck through the sagebrush / grasslands and seeing book muleys stotting everywhere? Dream on.

Regarding Alberta. They have the visibility factor. They just don't have the timbered / remote areas like we do which harbour mature bucks.

Everyone knows what the GOABC 'quality' means and what it entails.

My definition of quality is being able to go hunting every year and in the near future - with my kids without having to wait for a LEH hunt and put meat in the freezer.

I've hunted Region 5 quite a bit in the past and I've seen plenty of bucks in the 160-170 class without any difficulty and it gives me a bit of a chuckle how the guides I've run into hunt deer. I can see why they want to limit resident presence via LEH hunts .... they don't stray very far from their trucks! In fact, I found it humorous one particular day to see one of the Lancaster guides cruising back and forth ... back and forth across one section of open road area ... hoping to catch a buck moving across from the breaks down below. I know he was a guide because one of the hunters I talked to told me the fellow told him under no circumstances that he was allowed to hunt on one section of land earlier in the week because of some lease deal with Gang Ranch.

[jml11]

I've hunted Region 5 quite a bit in the past and it gives me a bit of a chuckle how the guides I've run into hunt deer. I can see why they want to limit resident presence via LEH hunts .... they don't stray very far from their trucks!

I saw the outfitter out in Nazko last fall, and he and his client were driving around all morning in the fresh snow looking for that elusive buck...I saw several areas they drove into and not once did they get out of the truck to have look around in the cutblocks they were hunting. If I am paying a few thousand dollars for a BC Deer Hunt, spending it inside the cab of truck is not my idea of a quality hunt.

[horshur]

If the two buck limit wasn't the problem and only amounted to 1-2% of harvest why was it removed?

[GoatGuy]

If the two buck limit wasn't the problem and only amounted to 1-2% of harvest why was it removed?

Heck of a good question.

[Kirby]

Bc residents and BCWF want quantity... All the BC residents that I know and the GO's want quality ! It can't happen in the same place, but it can happen in the same province ! Check out alberta's mule deer ! Let me know what you think.. I'm done with all the anti outfitter bull shit on this site.. I can't see your faces... but I know its green in color.. Green with envy that you didn't have the balls to put up the money and become an outfitter and do what you love to do for a living ! Have a nice one way discussion and hack the outfitter and residents that actually want a quality hunt ! And not on private land like some us have access to ! Why does one of the head honcho's from BCWF take his family to Alberta for quality Mule deer ??? Oh thats right he can't find any in BC !

Answer my last questions. Don't just run and hide cause you don't like whats being said.

You want quality learn to hunt better.

[Fisher-Dude]

How do they know this ????? I didn't receive a deer harvest questionnaire. They obviously didn't ask every hunter that went to region 5 ???


Bullshit ! They have no idea how many people take deer out of region 5 !


When you see how they conduct their air surveys you will have no idea how they get those numbers in the first place ????


Bite me.... ! I have extensive in field knowledge in region 5 ! Not from a frickin desk where most of these bullshit numbers are made up !

What was the buck harvest in region 5 in 2009 ???????


Do you respect the opinion of the most reknowned, preeminent wildlife biologist in North America, Dr Valerius Geist?

[horshur]

Do you respect the opinion of the most reknowned, preeminent wildlife biologist in North America, Dr Valerius Geist?

do the managers?? cause if they don't, and actions speak louder then words....then how can anyone?

you cannot throw science around if what is staring you in the face is not!!

and you guys know this....

a bunch of double speak.

[TPK]

the problem is not guide outfitters or residents or indians it is the fact that there is no mission statement for MOE or MOF.

When we raised a big stink about going from two bucks to one in Region 5 (town hall meetings and lots of angry letters to the MOE in Victoria) That really got their attention. They held a meeting here in Region 5 to discuss it. When we sat at the table with MOE and asked "what is the Mule Deer population number you are trying to manage towards? How big are you trying to get/keep the herd?" the answer was ...... "We don't know, we don't have a number." As far as I know, they still don't. So one has to ask why policy changes were/are being made when the goal hasn't been decided?

[GoatGuy]

do the managers?? cause if they don't, and actions speak louder then words....then how can anyone?

you cannot throw science around if what is staring you in the face is not!!

and you guys know this....

a bunch of double speak.

Yep, it's social management, not wildlife management.

[TPK]

do the managers?? cause if they don't, and actions speak louder then words....then how can anyone?

you cannot throw science around if what is staring you in the face is not!!

and you guys know this....

a bunch of double speak.

The Manager in Region 5 is our problem. His refusal to accept science other than "his" is what fueled the uproar in Region 5 and Victoria came down on him pretty hard as a result (all those letters hit home so I hear - a testament to letter writing!!).

Unfortunately, he's continuing to waffle which is why we're getting angry again and calling for meetings asking why things haven't progressed. We get excuses and budget concerns, the usual "politics" and the continued refusal to accept sound game management plans that are working in other Regions.

The point we're driving (and it's going no where) is that the Ominica plan works, and you don't need inventory numbers to implement it, just do it.

Common sense tells you that you can't manage a herd by only managing the males. Look at any rancher, he doesn't just manage the number of bulls he has, he looks at the number of cows and calves as well.

[coach]

Yep, it's social management, not wildlife management.

A pretty sad state of affairs!

[Fisher-Dude]

When the list of names below gets together to say that Rodger Stewart is a f-up in wildlife management, people better sit up and take serious notice.

Dan Blower, retired BC Ungulate Coordinator

Ken Child, retired Omineca Region, Wildlife Section Head
Ray Demarchi, retired BC Chief of Wildlife
Fred Harper, retired Thompson-Nicola, Regional Wildlife Section Head
Doug Janz, retired Vancouver Region, Regional Wildlife Section Head
Dave Low, retired Thompson-Nicola, Regional Wildlife Biologist
Bill Munro, retired BC Wildlife Branch, Deputy Director
Bruce Pendergast, retired BC Manager, Wildlife Inventory Section

[willy442]

When the list of names below gets together to say that Rodger Stewart is a f-up in wildlife management, people better sit up and take serious notice.

Dan Blower, retired BC Ungulate Coordinator

Ken Child, retired Omineca Region, Wildlife Section Head
Ray Demarchi, retired BC Chief of Wildlife
Fred Harper, retired Thompson-Nicola, Regional Wildlife Section Head
Doug Janz, retired Vancouver Region, Regional Wildlife Section Head
Dave Low, retired Thompson-Nicola, Regional Wildlife Biologist
Bill Munro, retired BC Wildlife Branch, Deputy Director
Bruce Pendergast, retired BC Manager, Wildlife Inventory Section


It all boils down to the mathematic formulas, game averageing counts and dreams of sustainability. Which in the end stands for F-UP in capitals.:)

[willy442]

The Manager in Region 5 is our problem. His refusal to accept science other than "his" is what fueled the uproar in Region 5 and Victoria came down on him pretty hard as a result (all those letters hit home so I hear - a testament to letter writing!!).

Unfortunately, he's continuing to waffle which is why we're getting angry again and calling for meetings asking why things haven't progressed. We get excuses and budget concerns, the usual "politics" and the continued refusal to accept sound game management plans that are working in other Regions.

The point we're driving (and it's going no where) is that the Ominica plan works, and you don't need inventory numbers to implement it, just do it.

Common sense tells you that you can't manage a herd by only managing the males. Look at any rancher, he doesn't just manage the number of bulls he has, he looks at the number of cows and calves as well.

Been through this before too. We had a Bio here in the North That was doing a pretty decent job. He wound up taking the wrap to after changes made everything go south. Suggest you probably should look a little higher up the ladder than the Bio and or Manager.

[willy442]

Yep, it's social management, not wildlife management.

How about resident opportunity. I know you don't like the sound of it when things go side ways, but in reality thats the reason why. :) I can't believe you couldn't defeat this one with your science materials.

[Jagermeister]

The Manager in Region 5 is our problem. His refusal to accept science other than "his" is what fueled the uproar in Region 5 and Victoria came down on him pretty hard as a result (all those letters hit home so I hear - a testament to letter writing!!).

Unfortunately, he's continuing to waffle which is why we're getting angry again and calling for meetings asking why things haven't progressed. We get excuses and budget concerns, the usual "politics" and the continued refusal to accept sound game management plans that are working in other Regions.

The point we're driving (and it's going no where) is that the Ominica plan works, and you don't need inventory numbers to implement it, just do it.

Common sense tells you that you can't manage a herd by only managing the males. Look at any rancher, he doesn't just manage the number of bulls he has, he looks at the number of cows and calves as well.
TPK has hit on the crux of the matter in this post.
Regional managers are given too much atonomy to manage as they desire, rather than accept a model that has proven successful in other regions.
I think that when a model has been proven successful, then that model becomes a standard management practice for the entire province. Deviation from that management standard would have to have justified through failure of the model to work in a particular region.

[dana]

Willy,
While I like your sheep stuff, you are actually well behind the times when it comes to muleys. Trophy Mule Deer are in fact the species of choice right now and the money actually blows sheep out of the water. Just last weekend in Utah they sold a deer tag for over $265,000 while the sheep tag for the same area of previously unhunted animals went for a mere $35,000. Tons of guys are paying 15-20 thousand to hunt muleys in Mexico and they would die to come home with a buck the size of the one in the picture I posted. I happen to actually know a ton of outfitters and guides in the states and yup, they do preseason scout their deer just like me and my friends do. If you didn't do this for sheep when you were an outfitter and a resident beat ya to the biggest ram on the mountain, you'd be pissed at yourself wouldn't ya? Yet, the outfitters in the south are freakin sleepin in all summer long and don't even have a clue what the deer quality is in their territories. They have the time but they are just plain LAZY! It maybe harsh, but wake up and smell the coffee, the modern outfitter is not like the ones of your day. Just have a look at their websites. You'll see a bunch of pictures of 130-140 class bucks. DINKS. They complain about the residents but they themselves are their own worst enemy. I say it all the time, you have to let the little bucks grow up but the southern outfitters don't. That is why they can't book hunts and compete against the Mexico and US outfitters when it comes to muleys. Would you book with an outfitter if all he had on his webpage was DINK rams? You've said it many a time on the sheep threads that you did your time and that is why you were successful. Well, the outfitters in the south ain't willing to do their time. They don't have a clue what a trophy muley looks like. They have never seen one. They don't know the difference between a 150 class, 160 class, 170 class and 180 class. They see 4 points and hammer it and then complain afterwards that there are no big bucks left. There are no big bucks cause they don't know how to hunt muleys plain and simple.

As for me and my hunting ground, nope, not hunting the ground where me dad taught me. I found it all by myself. I haven't hunted the ground I was taught by my ol'man for almost 20 years. I can tell ya that we killed that buck in the pic in the same territory that I guided in and I know the old outfitter would have been pissed at that. I have done forestry work in that area for 20 years but because I guided for him for a couple of seasons, I had no right to hunt it for myself. To that I told him to where to shove it. I was there before he ever was there. And whoever owns it now, they missed the chance at a whopper because a pack of weekend warriors beat him to it. :)

[willy442]

Willy,
While I like your sheep stuff, you are actually well behind the times when it comes to muleys. Trophy Mule Deer are in fact the species of choice right now and the money actually blows sheep out of the water. Just last weekend in Utah they sold a deer tag for over $265,000 while the sheep tag for the same area of previously unhunted animals went for a mere $35,000. Tons of guys are paying 15-20 thousand to hunt muleys in Mexico and they would die to come home with a buck the size of the one in the picture I posted. I happen to actually know a ton of outfitters and guides in the states and yup, they do preseason scout their deer just like me and my friends do. If you didn't do this for sheep when you were an outfitter and a resident beat ya to the biggest ram on the mountain, you'd be pissed at yourself wouldn't ya? Yet, the outfitters in the south are freakin sleepin in all summer long and don't even have a clue what the deer quality is in their territories. They have the time but they are just plain LAZY! It maybe harsh, but wake up and smell the coffee, the modern outfitter is not like the ones of your day. Just have a look at their websites. You'll see a bunch of pictures of 130-140 class bucks. DINKS. They complain about the residents but they themselves are their own worst enemy. I say it all the time, you have to let the little bucks grow up but the southern outfitters don't. That is why they can't book hunts and compete against the Mexico and US outfitters when it comes to muleys. Would you book with an outfitter if all he had on his webpage was DINK rams? You've said it many a time on the sheep threads that you did your time and that is why you were successful. Well, the outfitters in the south ain't willing to do their time. They don't have a clue what a trophy muley looks like. They have never seen one. They don't know the difference between a 150 class, 160 class, 170 class and 180 class. They see 4 points and hammer it and then complain afterwards that there are no big bucks left. There are no big bucks cause they don't know how to hunt muleys plain and simple.

As for me and my hunting ground, nope, not hunting the ground where me dad taught me. I found it all by myself. I haven't hunted the ground I was taught by my ol'man for almost 20 years. I can tell ya that we killed that buck in the pic in the same territory that I guided in and I know the old outfitter would have been pissed at that. I have done forestry work in that area for 20 years but because I guided for him for a couple of seasons, I had no right to hunt it for myself. To that I told him to where to shove it. I was there before he ever was there. And whoever owns it now, they missed the chance at a whopper because a pack of weekend warriors beat him to it. :)

Dana: All you did with your post is back up my statement on Deer in the South. That kind of money for deer does not exist here. No I never pre scouted, didn't need to and never lost a ram in my life to a resident. I also learned along time ago when it come to hunting not to classify someone as lazy. I know alot of hunters that have more patience than skills and have seen them take some pretty damn good animals. You work in the area and constantly scout and hunt it. You can by no means consider what you do as the way a G/O should hunt. The client has alot to do with it.

[32-40win]

A sad state of affairs when the 8 retired biologists ask for a review and it sounds like not much got done,especially if they got to look at the info that was in the region 5 manager's office, that he used to compile his report to Victoria. And I get the impression they did, or they likely would not have all signed that letter.
As to the Vancouver crowd travelling there, they would for moose, in a general season, no doubt about it. They wouldn't do serious damage to mulie numbers, that country can support a lot of deer. The one thing that is different now from 20-25 yrs ago is access with quads, that likely needs to be curtailed to an extent. Not that quad hunters kill much, they just make a lot of noise, push critters into thicker bush, then complain they don't see anything.
As to Snowpatrol, Alberta has different management practices, in the 100 zones in the prairies--gun season is 4 days a week, in Nov. Mulies are on draw in all but about 2 zones in Alberta for gun season, moose are open somewhere north of Lac La Biche in 2 zones in gun season. All other zones are draw.
Most of the 300 zones north of the Bow river to the North Sask are also draw for Archery on moose, which are the Foothills zones,anywhere east is draw. The guides would like mulies to go on draw for archery.
Maybe the one thing BC could adopt from Alberta is the draw priority system. It works. And maybe the no quads til noon rule. I hunted region 5 from 1970 to 93, got told I'd have to get an outfitter guide for moose that year. I miss going back there.
Sounds like something needs to get done at the local level to oust the region 5 manager.

[dana]

Dana: All you did with your post is back up my statement on Deer in the South. That kind of money for deer does not exist here. No I never pre scouted, didn't need to and never lost a ram in my life to a resident. I also learned along time ago when it come to hunting not to classify someone as lazy. I know alot of hunters that have more patience than skills and have seen them take some pretty damn good animals. You work in the area and constantly scout and hunt it. You can by no means consider what you do as the way a G/O should hunt. The client has alot to do with it.


You are right, the money ain't there soley because the outfitters in southern BC don't know how to get it done. Soooo if that is the case, why all the fuss about changing regs? I can tell ya, even if hell froze over and the outfitters got their way and got muley bucks on LEH, they still would be killing the same DINKS! 200 inch bucks aren't magically going to appear behind every tree. To kill one, you need to have your homework done. If they ain't willing to do their homework now, then why would it be any different if they got from the Ministry the Moon they are askin for?

So lets do the math. They are selling muley hunts for $3000-$6000. They currently can book as many hunts as they want. They push for LEH and then suddenly are are on quota, but low and behold, so is the resident. So lets just say they save some young bucks from dying at the hand of a resident. Do you think they suddenly will be killing 200 inchers and bumping that $3000 hunt up to $10000 or more. Nope. They will go from shooting 140-150 class bucks to maybe the magic 160 class because they still haven't learned how to hunt trophy muleys. Do they think that a bunch of yanks are sitting on the sidelines waiting to buy a 160 class rat for $10000? Sooo, again I say, why the fuss? Why not just keep doing what they are doing. Make a little money on muleys as an add on to goat or moose and make the bulk of their money in the spring killing bears? Why the pissing and moaning over what? They are not trophy mule deer gurus and never will be.

As for applying what I do to the BC outfitters, why the hell not? I took the page out of a legendary yanky outfitter book and was able to adapt it to BC and it has been working for us. And I am a nobody. I have a job where I work all week long. My hunting time is limited to weekends. If the outfitters in the south did the same thing, maybe just maybe they would get some big bucks killed. And they don't have to work at a different job every day like me. They should be kicking my ass. How much work do you think it takes to run a southern BC outfit. Hell, they make most of their money in 1 month in the spring with bears. A few goat hunts, several small swamp donkey hunts and if they actually are set up, maybe 2 or 3 lion hunts in the winter. That leaves a $hitload of time to actually preseason scout now don't it? But lets be realistic, even if they were able to get a few monsters on the ground, how would that change into instant money for them? This ain't the states where outfitters can go where ever they want. Here they are restricted to their territory and it just doesn't work to be able to kill a 'bunch' of monsters year in and year out. If you got good at it, you are looking at a tops of 2-3 180+ deer in the average territory that you'd see hit the ground. You book a ton of hunters, and get to killing, you'll see the quality drop suddenly because you are over harvesting the older age class within your territory. Soooo, again, how does this add a ton of money to the outfitter's pockets? If he were to get consistant at killing 2 or 3 big bucks per year, he'd be able to sell those hunts for a couple thousand more. So a total of 3 hunts at 2 thousand is an exta 6 grand in his pocket. Why not just book another spring bear hunter and you'd have that 6 grand easier?

[Will]

I certainly don't think 93,000 resident hunters should be told by 220 outfitters and 1,500 resident hunters who want to shoot trophy bucks how they should hunt.

I generally stay out of the "political" stuff.......I'm not edumucated enough to discuss such things:neutral:

But I do like the above statement GG :-D

[coach]

Been through this before too. We had a Bio here in the North That was doing a pretty decent job. He wound up taking the wrap to after changes made everything go south. Suggest you probably should look a little higher up the ladder than the Bio and or Manager.

It seems there's a lot of politics going this way in BC right now. Look no further than the threads on FN roadblocks and the lack of enforcement surrounding them or the thread on the possible changes to coastal grizzly bear hunting. Somebody in government isn't being truthful with us. Is it a conspiracy theory or is someone higher up giving the region 5 manager his orders?

[willy442]

You are right, the money ain't there soley because the outfitters in southern BC don't know how to get it done. Soooo if that is the case, why all the fuss about changing regs? I can tell ya, even if hell froze over and the outfitters got their way and got muley bucks on LEH, they still would be killing the same DINKS! 200 inch bucks aren't magically going to appear behind every tree. To kill one, you need to have your homework done. If they ain't willing to do their homework now, then why would it be any different if they got from the Ministry the Moon they are askin for?

So lets do the math. They are selling muley hunts for $3000-$6000. They currently can book as many hunts as they want. They push for LEH and then suddenly are are on quota, but low and behold, so is the resident. So lets just say they save some young bucks from dying at the hand of a resident. Do you think they suddenly will be killing 200 inchers and bumping that $3000 hunt up to $10000 or more. Nope. They will go from shooting 140-150 class bucks to maybe the magic 160 class because they still haven't learned how to hunt trophy muleys. Do they think that a bunch of yanks are sitting on the sidelines waiting to buy a 160 class rat for $10000? Sooo, again I say, why the fuss? Why not just keep doing what they are doing. Make a little money on muleys as an add on to goat or moose and make the bulk of their money in the spring killing bears? Why the pissing and moaning over what? They are not trophy mule deer gurus and never will be.

As for applying what I do to the BC outfitters, why the hell not? I took the page out of a legendary yanky outfitter book and was able to adapt it to BC and it has been working for us. And I am a nobody. I have a job where I work all week long. My hunting time is limited to weekends. If the outfitters in the south did the same thing, maybe just maybe they would get some big bucks killed. And they don't have to work at a different job every day like me. They should be kicking my ass. How much work do you think it takes to run a southern BC outfit. Hell, they make most of their money in 1 month in the spring with bears. A few goat hunts, several small swamp donkey hunts and if they actually are set up, maybe 2 or 3 lion hunts in the winter. That leaves a $hitload of time to actually preseason scout now don't it? But lets be realistic, even if they were able to get a few monsters on the ground, how would that change into instant money for them? This ain't the states where outfitters can go where ever they want. Here they are restricted to their territory and it just doesn't work to be able to kill a 'bunch' of monsters year in and year out. If you got good at it, you are looking at a tops of 2-3 180+ deer in the average territory that you'd see hit the ground. You book a ton of hunters, and get to killing, you'll see the quality drop suddenly because you are over harvesting the older age class within your territory. Soooo, again, how does this add a ton of money to the outfitter's pockets? If he were to get consistant at killing 2 or 3 big bucks per year, he'd be able to sell those hunts for a couple thousand more. So a total of 3 hunts at 2 thousand is an exta 6 grand in his pocket. Why not just book another spring bear hunter and you'd have that 6 grand easier?

As long as it makes sense to you. I'd guess you may as well carry on. For me I'd rather expand my horizon and take up mastering something else. I have only ever wanted to have one specimen of everything I guided for. I pretty much have that, all sizeable heads and I used to be G/O.

[willy442]

It seems there's a lot of politics going this way in BC right now. Look no further than the threads on FN roadblocks and the lack of enforcement surrounding them or the thread on the possible changes to coastal grizzly bear hunting. Somebody in government isn't being truthful with us. Is it a conspiracy theory or is someone higher up giving the region 5 manager his orders?

Not sure but the region 5 deer thing is awful suspicious.

[coach]

Not sure but the region 5 deer thing is awful suspicious.

On this, we definitely agree.

[GoatGuy]

How about resident opportunity. I know you don't like the sound of it when things go side ways, but in reality thats the reason why. :) I can't believe you couldn't defeat this one with your science materials.

It was never about 'resident opportunity' it was for non-selective harvest to increase the number of 'trophy bucks'. It's all in the paperwork from the region.

[Buck]

I generally stay out of the "political" stuff.......I'm not edumucated enough to discuss such things:neutral:

But I do like the above statement GG :-D

This is as clear as it gets GG for Premier.

[Fisher-Dude]

It seems there's a lot of politics going this way in BC right now. Look no further than the threads on FN roadblocks and the lack of enforcement surrounding them or the thread on the possible changes to coastal grizzly bear hunting. Somebody in government isn't being truthful with us. Is it a conspiracy theory or is someone higher up giving the region 5 manager his orders?


If the GOs are considered "higher up", then yes, you're on the right track. :wink:

On a related note, most people don't seem to consider what the $750,000 collected per year by the NON-resident Hunter Protection Fund goes to. Every GO client pays a $150 surcharge on his hunt into this fund, and it is used for lobby efforts by the GOs to restrict things like spike/fork moose hunts for BC residents so that NON-residents can have "quality" hunts in region 5.

[willy442]

If the GOs are considered "higher up", then yes, you're on the right track. :wink:

On a related note, most people don't seem to consider what the $750,000 collected per year by the NON-resident Hunter Protection Fund goes to. Every GO client pays a $150 surcharge on his hunt into this fund, and it is used for lobby efforts by the GOs to restrict things like spike/fork moose hunts for BC residents so that NON-residents can have "quality" hunts in region 5.

What are you suggesting? They stop working or give the money to you and the BCWF. A group that won't even give the donors a report on the status of the resident hunter fund. By the looks of the region 5 fiasco I'd say it was spent on beer. This isn't the first time you've whinned about the ability of the guides. As the self proclaimed voice of the BCWF on HBC maybe you could follow thier lead and work on a fund within that organization that could be used to actually accomplish something.

[bigwhiteys]

On a related note, most people don't seem to consider what the $750,000 collected per year by the NON-resident Hunter Protection Fund goes to. Every GO client pays a $150 surcharge on his hunt into this fund, and it is used for lobby efforts by the GOs to restrict things like spike/fork moose hunts for BC residents so that NON-residents can have "quality" hunts in region 5.


Just think of all the money we'd have for resident hunters if we as a bunch each coughed up $150 a year to put towards our cause.

We'd bitch and complain if license prices went up $1.00

Carl

[GoatGuy]

Just think of all the money we'd have for resident hunters if we as a bunch each coughed up $150 a year to put towards our cause.

We'd bitch and complain if license prices went up $1.00

Carl

Funny, everybody would be arguing about what it should be spent on. Even seen Smeagol/Gollum go at it? :mrgreen:

[BlacktailStalker]

I'd cough up that or more if somebody wasn't going to get paid 80K a year out of the pot to manage it like most funds... not saying thats the case.

[GoatGuy]

I'd cough up that much if somebody wasn't going to get paid 80K a year out of the pot to manage it like most funds... not saying thats the case.

If you want results you gotta pay for them. 80K doesn't get you much in terms of a manager or lobbyist nowadays.

[bigwhiteys]

If the 80,000+ licensed hunters in this province even put in an extra $10 a year we'd be laughing with lots of money to fight our causes...

Seems we've put the cart before the horse, trying to fight fairly large and important battles with our tiny little piggy banks.

Carl

[GoatGuy]

If the 80,000+ licensed hunters in this province even put in an extra $10 a year we'd be laughing with lots of money to fight our causes...

Seems we've put the cart before the horse, trying to fight fairly large and important battles with our tiny little piggy banks.

Carl
That's part of it, most of it's apathy and communication.

[TPK]

.... maybe you could follow thier lead and work on a fund within that organization that could be used to actually accomplish something.

THERE IS !! The BCWF Resident Angler and Hunter Preservation Fund
http://residentpriority.ca/

I give what I can and our Club has made donations as well. Step right up folks, they can use all they can get. Every little bit helps. $10 from each resident hunter would be simply amazing.

[Kody94]

What is most annoying is that the Fed and the GOABC are trying to put together war chests so that they can (in part anyway) lobby against each other, rather than against anti-hunters.

The money should be for preserving our collective rights to hunt....period.

[willy442]

What is most annoying is that the Fed and the GOABC are trying to put together war chests so that they can (in part anyway) lobby against each other, rather than against anti-hunters.

The money should be for preserving our collective rights to hunt....period.

That may be the case locally. However through support of some of the bigger clubs state side they indirectly put alot out to the support of hunting and our right to have fire arms. Which go hand in hand.

[boxhitch]

...........through support of some of the bigger clubs state side they indirectly put alot out to the support of hunting and our right to have fire arms..............Dozens of B.C. hunts are fully donated to U.S. based organizations to be sold raffled or auctioned as fundraisers.
And actually a small portion of that money does come back into BC in support of enhancement projects, but I've never heard of them at any bargaining table.

[bridger]

the non resident hunting preservation fund is exactely that a fund designed by the goabc to generate funds for lobbying for the enhancement of non resident hunting opportunities. I also agree with kody 94 that both organizations should work together.

[willy442]

Dozens of B.C. hunts are fully donated to U.S. based organizations to be sold raffled or auctioned as fundraisers.
And actually a small portion of that money does come back into BC in support of enhancement projects, but I've never heard of them at any bargaining table.

My post was not in any way related to what was done soley in B.C. These clubs that are supported fight many issue's through out N.A. Might be a good time for some people to broaden thier horizons.

[willy442]

the non resident hunting preservation fund is exactely that a fund designed by the goabc to generate funds for lobbying for the enhancement of non resident hunting opportunities. I also agree with kody 94 that both organizations should work together.

Is there something wrong as Fisher Dude insinuates with this fund being raised. He seems to know more about the G/O's fund than anyone knows about the one you kicked off the ground. What was it called?

[GoatGuy]

I also agree with kody 94 that both organizations should work together.

Not no more, shit just hit the fan BIG TIME

[willy442]

Not no more, shit just hit the fan BIG TIME

And the President of Resident Hunting has spoke!:)

[bigwhiteys]

That's part of it, most of it's apathy and communication.


part of it...? You can't tell me for one second that a million more dollars a year into the BCWF wouldn't go a long way. You mentioned above that $80,000 doesn't get much for a manager/lobbyist. I imagine free/volunteer positions might not either. Not to diminish the quality of people who volunteer their time to BCWF or their experience, just making a point. You get what you pay for.

Communication, you are right is a big issue. And I feel the BCWF gets a lower grade there. I am a member, and I have to get my BCWF updates on this site!!! Something wrong there!??

I should be receiving emails on an almost weekly basis, keeping me updated and informed. In December I emailed BCWF marketing dept. asking if I could pickup the BCWF RSS news feed to display on my own site. No reply. Does BCWF even have one?? It's 2011.

BCWF claims to be about the members and "our" collective voice. But yet, following all the threads on here (where BCWF execs are present) I don't see that consistent message.

6616
TPK
Lange1212

Are guys who seem to be able to make good points, generate good discussion and present information without berating people, or resorting to personal attacks, or being a$$holes in general. I read and respect what these guys have to say and they conduct themselves as people I could put my voice behind and feel good about it, even if we didn't agree on something.

Fisherdude
Yourself

Are constantly dropping to the lower level of the debate spectrum. Not that you don't have lots of information to share and haven't done some great things for hunting, it's just the way you go about it, especially on here. Neither of you conduct yourselves as people I want representing me or my hunting interests.

It's nothing personal. It's just politics. I am sure a guy could sit down face-to-face with any of you and have a beer, no issues at all.

So you are right... Communication is a very big issue. It affects how everyone perceives you and the messages you are trying to convey. Many of us on this site need to learn this lesson, myself included at times.

Just my take.

Carl

[LYKTOHUNT]

THERE IS !! The BCWF Resident Angler and Hunter Preservation Fund
http://residentpriority.ca/

I give what I can and our Club has made donations as well. Step right up folks, they can use all they can get. Every little bit helps. $10 from each resident hunter would be simply amazing.
Thanks Tony for the link and from the dialgue on this thread maybe we all need to step up to the plate and donate and I know many of you do, now I will

[Gunner]

The disagreements between the BCWF and the GOABC are just a small part of the issues that the BCWF must attempt to address.Everything from the halibut allocations,to relationships with FNs, to habitat protection,to educating antis, and preserving access to BCs wild areas.GOABC is strictly interested in preserving and improving their business plan.GOABC uses paid lobbyists,at the present time the BCWF uses volunteer committees,who give up countless hours of their own time to try and address issues that affect everyone who uses this forum.Who do YOU think will best serve your future hunting opportunities.If you are unhappy with the directions that the Fed is taking,get involved and make your views known.They can use all the help they can get,and not just donations,there's enough work for everybody. Gunner

[6616]

part of it...? You can't tell me for one second that a million more dollars a year into the BCWF wouldn't go a long way. You mentioned above that $80,000 doesn't get much for a manager/lobbyist. I imagine free/volunteer positions might not either. Not to diminish the quality of people who volunteer their time to BCWF or their experience, just making a point. You get what you pay for.

Communication, you are right is a big issue. And I feel the BCWF gets a lower grade there. I am a member, and I have to get my BCWF updates on this site!!! Something wrong there!??

I should be receiving emails on an almost weekly basis, keeping me updated and informed. In December I emailed BCWF marketing dept. asking if I could pickup the BCWF RSS news feed to display on my own site. No reply. Does BCWF even have one?? It's 2011.

BCWF claims to be about the members and "our" collective voice. But yet, following all the threads on here (where BCWF execs are present) I don't see that consistent message.

6616
TPK
Lange1212

Are guys who seem to be able to make good points, generate good discussion and present information without berating people, or resorting to personal attacks, or being a$$holes in general. I read and respect what these guys have to say and they conduct themselves as people I could put my voice behind and feel good about it, even if we didn't agree on something.

Fisherdude
Yourself

Are constantly dropping to the lower level of the debate spectrum. Not that you don't have lots of information to share and haven't done some great things for hunting, it's just the way you go about it, especially on here. Neither of you conduct yourselves as people I want representing me or my hunting interests.

It's nothing personal. It's just politics. I am sure a guy could sit down face-to-face with any of you and have a beer, no issues at all.

So you are right... Communication is a very big issue. It affects how everyone perceives you and the messages you are trying to convey. Many of us on this site need to learn this lesson, myself included at times.

Just my take.

Carl

By the way Carl, none of the people you mention are BCWF provincial exec members. Most are involved in regions in varying capacities, but primarily we are merely committee people who take direction from the board.

[willy442]

The disagreements between the BCWF and the GOABC are just a small part of the issues that the BCWF must attempt to address.Everything from the halibut allocations,to relationships with FNs, to habitat protection,to educating antis, and preserving access to BCs wild areas.GOABC is strictly interested in preserving and improving their business plan.GOABC uses paid lobbyists,at the present time the BCWF uses volunteer committees,who give up countless hours of their own time to try and address issues that affect everyone who uses this forum.Who do YOU think will best serve your future hunting opportunities.If you are unhappy with the directions that the Fed is taking,get involved and make your views known.They can use all the help they can get,and not just donations,there's enough work for everybody. Gunner

The GOABC also fights many of the same battles you do. Some they have a slightly different prespective on and yes they are business people so they do have considerably more invested.
Again is it a problem that the GOABC is able to raise money to strengthen thier bargaining power? I would suggest it is more af a concern on account of the inability of the BCWF to get organized and do the same. Like Bigwhities said the BCWF is not the most supported or liked organization out there. It could be if those at the helm ever actually got thier shit together like the guides have. It seems to me maybe if the long overdue joining of forces ever took place, allowing all with an interest for our hunting future to work for common basic goals we would be better off.

I fully realize, I sound like a broken record, but what has the BCWF done for any of us recently? Except fight the allocation, which is totally social, nothing what so ever to do with game management.

[GoatGuy]

The GOABC also fights many of the same battles you do. Some they have a slightly different prespective on and yes they are business people so they do have considerably more invested.
Again is it a problem that the GOABC is able to raise money to strengthen thier bargaining power? I would suggest it is more af a concern on account of the inability of the BCWF to get organized and do the same. Like Bigwhities said the BCWF is not the most supported or liked organization out there. It could be if those at the helm ever actually got thier shit together like the guides have. It seems to me maybe if the long overdue joining of forces ever took place, allowing all with an interest for our hunting future to work for common basic goals we would be better off.

I fully realize, I sound like a broken record, but what has the BCWF done for any of us recently? Except fight the allocation, which is totally social, nothing what so ever to do with game management.

These are issues that are common to both organizations.

There's a lot of frustration in GOABC as well, some big names canceling their membership.

[bigwhiteys]

By the way Carl, none of the people you mention are BCWF provincial exec members. Most are involved in regions in varying capacities, but primarily we are merely committee people who take direction from the board.
My apologies then... The observations still stand though.

[Fisher-Dude]

On Mike DeJong's campaign donor list:

Guide Outfitters Association of British Columbia 1,000.00

[willy442]

On Mike DeJong's campaign donor list:

Guide Outfitters Association of British Columbia 1,000.00


I thought it was common for organizations to donate to campaigns. Get your tin can out and shake it on the street corner and see if you can catch up and donate to your cause.:-D

[willy442]

These are issues that are common to both organizations.

There's a lot of frustration in GOABC as well, some big names canceling their membership.

Agreed: Tell me what are we gaining with the dissention between everyone? Then think about what could be gained even if you were to get the ones cancelling on side. The way we are going plays right into the hands of everyone that prefers hunters be unorganized. They are the ones winning not the resident or the G/O. Your Grizzly bears are a prime example.

[GoatGuy]

Agreed: Tell me what are we gaining with the dissention between everyone? Then think about what could be gained even if you were to get the ones cancelling on side. The way we are going plays right into the hands of everyone that prefers hunters be unorganized. They are the ones winning not the resident or the G/O. Your Grizzly bears are a prime example.

That's what I thought as well. :confused: Things seem to change by the minute.

No sense in dwelling on the past, time to start looking forward.

[Fisher-Dude]

I thought it was common for organizations to donate to campaigns. Get your tin can out and shake it on the street corner and see if you can catch up and donate to your cause.:-D

Yes, common for those trying to influence game management to be political instead of science-based. I guess that's why the BCWF isn't donating, as they would rather put their money into the science of game management, such as the $40,000 local clubs just donated to do a region 8 moose inventory.

I'm quite happy that my organization spends its money on game management projects, instead of buying off politicians.

[BlacktailStalker]

The money should be for preserving our collective rights to hunt....period.

Agreed!
Why hunters are fighting for whats LEFT amongst ourselves the antis are shutting us down bit by bit (Reg.4 grizz)
We're all losing.

[willy442]

Yes, common for those trying to influence game management to be political instead of science-based. I guess that's why the BCWF isn't donating, as they would rather put their money into the science of game management, such as the $40,000 local clubs just donated to do a region 8 moose inventory.

I'm quite happy that my organization spends its money on game management projects, instead of buying off politicians.

FD You do nothing for wildlife. The forty thousand you have for a Moose study might get you some hair samples from a couple cows and calves. The G/O's spend more than that on travel to lobby for thier causes. You are so consumed with G/O bashing and blinded by your rage against them, I'm surprised you get anything else done.

On another note if two people were running for a political seat and one was an anti Hunter, the other supported hunting and was actually vocal in the house about it. What would you do? Sit back and bitch that someone who wasn't a hunter was running for parliment. You would rather flood the hallways with petitions and letters, instead of opening up your purse strings and support the person that supports your interests, no doubt. You should be damn glad the G/Os are showing support to the people that support hunting, it's just another one of the things they do to help maintain our ability hunt. Never thought of that did you before you started babbling.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

FD You do nothing for wildlife. The forty thousand you have for a Moose study might get you some hair samples from a couple cows and calves. The G/O's spend more than that on travel to lobby for thier causes. You are so consumed with G/O bashing and blinded by your rage against them, I'm surprised you get anything else done.

On another note if two people were running for a political seat and one was an anti Hunter, the other supported hunting and was actually vocal in the house about it. What would you do? Sit back and bitch that someone who wasn't a hunter was running for parliment. You would rather flood the hallways with petitions and letters, instead of opening up your purse strings and support the person that supports your interests, no doubt. You should be damn glad the G/Os are showing support to the people that support hunting, it's just another one of the things they do to help maintain our ability hunt. Never thought of that did you before you started babbling.

You're right Willy...that $40,000 did nothing for wildlife...but it did provide a much better moose count than the previous one. They found that we had twice the numbers of moose than they previously thought; however, that was no surprise to the resident hunters as that's what most were seeing out in the bush. These donations towards a more thorough inventory was in response to a more restrictive season on our spike/fork this past season. It seems the G/O's lobbied to get the season restricted and moved outside the rut which they felt would help our "struggling" moose population(according to their anecdotal information:roll:). In reality, the purpose of the restricted season was to move all of the GOS resident hunters outside the rut while the GO's could purse their "any bull" quota during the rut.....at the same time as the "few" lucky resident hunters that drew the coveted "October Any Bull" LEHS.

This is just a typical example of what goes on around here:neutral:.

I know you'll say that I'm "whining" but these are the facts.

SSS

[GoatGuy]

FD You do nothing for wildlife. The forty thousand you have for a Moose study might get you some hair samples from a couple cows and calves. The G/O's spend more than that on travel to lobby for thier causes. You are so consumed with G/O bashing and blinded by your rage against them, I'm surprised you get anything else done.


Willy, you're completely off-base again. I thought you were the guy saying we should be working together for wildlife, inventory, habitat etc?

Start with the facts.

[Fisher-Dude]

The G/O's spend more than that on travel to lobby for thier causes.

That's right. They spend money lobbying on emotions, while the BCWF spends money on wildlife.

The GOs wouldn't give one red cent to the region 8 moose inventory, because they have been bullshitting the MoE by telling them there were no moose left in region 8 and that the s/f season should be closed down to resident hunters. They knew that the study would expose that they have been "anecdotally" feeding a line of crap to Penticton. And, go figure, twice the number of moose show up in the extensive population survey, just what the BCWF has been "anecdotally" telling Penticton (ie, not lying about the number of moose out there).

I guess Willy, in your world, it's okay to lie to make money off wildlife, and who really cares about conservation based on facts. I like my world better.

[dana]

As long as it makes sense to you. I'd guess you may as well carry on. For me I'd rather expand my horizon and take up mastering something else. I have only ever wanted to have one specimen of everything I guided for. I pretty much have that, all sizeable heads and I used to be G/O.

Willy, lets get back to the topic of this thread. Answer my questions. Why all the fuss from the GO's in Region 5 to change the seasons so that they might make a measly extra 6 grand each if they are lucky and here my buddies and I are getting er done on public ground as DIY weekend warriors in Region 3 which has the most liberal seasons in all of BC? I know for a fact, we could do what we are doing in any damn region, 5 included. The big boys are still there, yet the GO's are too freakin lazy to find them. So again, why the fuss?

As for us focusing on other species, you might just be surprised what other animals my group is killing. ;) For myself, I'm on the 100 mile diet. Monster muleys ain't all I do, and I think you know that. I've got a 8'9" lion on my wall. How's that dream going for you? While you are in the twightlight years, I'm still young. I've got a lot of years of hunting ahead of me, and I'm not wasting those years by babysitting fat yanks like you did. Hunting is soooo much more fun when you hunt with friends and family. Instead of being gone all fall long, I actually can teach my kids how to hunt unlike most guides that miss out on that as they are trying to fullfill some stranger's dream.

[willy442]

Willy, you're completely off-base again. I thought you were the guy saying we should be working together for wildlife, inventory, habitat etc?

Start with the facts.

Not disagreeing with you at all. Just awful tired of some peoples attitudes as you can tell. Do you think it helps the cause?:-D

[willy442]

Willy, lets get back to the topic of this thread. Answer my questions. Why all the fuss from the GOS in Region 5 to change the seasons so that they can make a measly extra 6 grand each and here my buddies and I are getting er done on public ground as DIY weekend warriors in Region 3 which has the most liberal seasons in all of BC?

As for us focusing on other species, you might just be surprised what other animals my group is killing. ;) For myself, I'm on the 100 mile diet. Monster muleys ain't all I do, and I think you know that. I've got a 8'9" lion on my wall. How's that dream going for you?

Yes and every bear you shoot is 7 ft or better. Can you say FISH STORY.

[willy442]

:-D
You're right Willy...that $40,000 did nothing for wildlife...but it did provide a much better moose count than the previous one. They found that we had twice the numbers of moose than they previously thought; however, that was no surprise to the resident hunters as that's what most were seeing out in the bush. These donations towards a more thorough inventory was in response to a more restrictive season on our spike/fork this past season. It seems the G/O's lobbied to get the season restricted and moved outside the rut which they felt would help our "struggling" moose population(according to their anecdotal information:roll:). In reality, the purpose of the restricted season was to move all of the GOS resident hunters outside the rut while the GO's could purse their "any bull" quota during the rut.....at the same time as the "few" lucky resident hunters that drew the coveted "October Any Bull" LEHS.

This is just a typical example of what goes on around here:neutral:.

I know you'll say that I'm "whining" but these are the facts.

SSS

I'll get the info from someone leading the way rather than a little lamb following along. Thanks for your input though.:-D

[dana]

Yes and every bear you shoot is 7 ft or better. Can you say FISH STORY.

Nope, not every bear I shoot is 7 plus. I've only ever killed one over 7. My son has only killed 1 as well. The rest of his were 6' or better. My daughter's one and only bear was 7. So what is that? 3 bears that were 7 or over in the last 6 years and a lot that are wayyyy smaller. Heck I personally killed a 5'6 bear a few years ago because it was the prettiest bear I've ever seen.

When I guided bears, the outfit was killing 35-40 a year. The Europeans weren't focused on size like the Yanks and I saw a $hitload of 5 footers hit the ground. But what a cash cow for the outfitter. 6 grand for a 2 on 1 hunt. Jam a ton of hunters into one month and sell them 2 tags. And then charge them a $500 trophy fee on their first bear and a $1000 trophy fee on the second bear. Geeze, do the math. I know a ton of the southern BC GO's are killing the same amount of bears. If they want to increase the economical viability of their outfits, this is where they can really make the money. Not muleys. They should be pushing the ministry to increase the baglimits on bears from 2 to 5 like it was in the 80's.

But, Willy, lets get back to the topic at hand. Answer my question. Why the fuss from the GO's in Region 5 when you full know the MONEY ain't there?

[BlacktailStalker]

I've got a 8'9" lion on my wall.


Off the carcass maybe... which is not even remotely close to an on the carcass measurement.

Back to the program...

[dana]

Off the carcass maybe... which is not even remotely close to an on the carcass measurement.

Back to the program...

On the carcus, 7'4". On the wall 8'9". Not a small tom by any means. And I know Willy wants one. ;)

[Snowpatrol]

Off the carcass maybe... which is not even remotely close to an on the carcass measurement.

Back to the program...

Bingo ! Even a 130lb Tom off the island is almost always 7'1" I'm not all that impressed yet ??? Nice buck though Dana... but again its region 3 not 5 as was the discussion. Back to the bitch session ! :mrgreen:

[dana]

Bingo ! Even a 130lb Tom off the island is almost always 7'1" I'm not all that impressed yet ??? Nice buck though Dana... but again its region 3 not 5 as was the discussion. Back to the bitch session ! :mrgreen:

When one of the best lion taxidermist's in the province, who is an avid lion hunter himself, tells ya they don't get much bigger, one of the bigger lions he's worked on for years, is he telling the truth or is he blowing sunshine up your a$$?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Hunting%20Pics/05Cougar1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Hunting%20Pics/AndyandLibbywithmy05Cougar1.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Jan23076a.jpg

As for Region 5 versus Region 3, Hmmmm, Region 5 historically has way way bigger deer and they have way more conservative season, and yet the outfitters can't get er done? Come on now, why the hell not? They also have vast tracks of private ground that they have sole permission to hunt and yet they still can't get er done. I'll tell ya why, because the are LAZY!!!!!! Seriously, do you believe Willy that it is soley a client issue? Is he saying that muleys are wayyyy harder to hunt than his precious Stone Sheep? He got the fat ass clients in on them but the Region 5 GO's can't do it in some of the easiest ground in the south? Geeze, they are killing lots of lions and getting their clients under the tree, but they can't get them on a big muley because it's too physical? Maybe they should be a little more selective in who they book? I know tons of diehard muley nuts in the States that would love to come to BC and hunt the quality of deer me and my buddies have been killing. These guys are in top physical shape and can hike their a$$es off. Maybe the GO's need to reexamine who and why they are booking?

[dana]

So what do ya think an outfitter could charge if he had a resume like this on his website?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/NOV17031a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/08630024.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/03NT5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/CanoeBuck.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/buck3.jpg

[dana]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/Matts183typical.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/IMG_2903.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/IMG_6909.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/bucklineup2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/File0015.jpg

[killman]

I was in Clearwater last weekend. There where bucks like those standing beside the Highway. No big deal around there.

[Gamebuster]

You're right Willy...that $40,000 did nothing for wildlife...but it did provide a much better moose count than the previous one. They found that we had twice the numbers of moose than they previously thought; however, that was no surprise to the resident hunters as that's what most were seeing out in the bush. These donations towards a more thorough inventory was in response to a more restrictive season on our spike/fork this past season. It seems the G/O's lobbied to get the season restricted and moved outside the rut which they felt would help our "struggling" moose population(according to their anecdotal information:roll:). In reality, the purpose of the restricted season was to move all of the GOS resident hunters outside the rut while the GO's could purse their "any bull" quota during the rut.....at the same time as the "few" lucky resident hunters that drew the coveted "October Any Bull" LEHS.

This is just a typical example of what goes on around here:neutral:.

I know you'll say that I'm "whining" but these are the facts.

SSS

the facts? looks like you need to get them straight yourself instead of listening to the dribble of others....it is possible to have lots of moose and low bull numbers especially because cows aren't hunted much or at all in some areas down here :wink: and I seriously doubt thje change was made for the benefit you speak of, although it is a benefit to outfitters

[dana]

Killman,
Sorry, the bucks have been shed out for a month now. Maybe a coule of little dinks still packin' but the big boys were shed out a long time ago. :)

[killman]

Killman,
Sorry, the bucks have been shed out for a month now. Maybe a coule of little dinks still packin' but the big boys were shed out a long time ago. :)

:mrgreen:......................................:wi nk:

[Fisher-Dude]

the facts? looks like you need to get them straight yourself instead of listening to the dribble of others....it is possible to have lots of moose and low bull numbers especially because cows aren't hunted much or at all in some areas down here :wink: and I seriously doubt thje change was made for the benefit you speak of, although it is a benefit to outfitters

Tell us about your direct involvement with the moose inventories in region 8, and the management decisions that have been made in the past several years. I'd like to see how your experience compares to the level of involvement of SSS, with which I am familiar.

[coach]

Awesome animals, Dana! Your hunting abilities, knowledge and experiences are great for all of us to learn from. Although, I'm not sure if it's a diversion from the topic at hand.

I've followed this entire thread and a few of the other current debates with great interest. I'm still trying to figure out what really is going on in region 5 and hopeful that things will improve in the next few years with regard to resident hunter opportunity - especially for what seems once again to be a healthy moose population. Even Willy agrees that something is f$&@ed up with regard to the mule deer situation - although the finger seems to be firmly pointed at the regional manager caving to pressure from the local GO's. Have I missed something, or is this really the case? I'm 100% in agreement for the calls from various contributors on this forum for residents and GO's to work together for the betterment of all hunters - but it's difficult to sort through the BS.

[GoatGuy]

Not disagreeing with you at all. Just awful tired of some peoples attitudes as you can tell. Do you think it helps the cause?:-D

I think it's best to deal with fact. Could care less about the rest.

[BCrams]

Seeing the survey results of the Region 8 moose raised my eyebrows.

On one hand I've been hearing what the GO's have been saying - then BCWF puts together the money for proper surveys and ..... well ..... facts speak for themselves. The fellow who ran the surveys is well known.

[dana]

Awesome animals, Dana! Your hunting abilities, knowledge and experiences are great for all of us to learn from. Although, I'm not sure if it's a diversion from the topic at hand.

I've followed this entire thread and a few of the other current debates with great interest. I'm still trying to figure out what really is going on in region 5 and hopeful that things will improve in the next few years with regard to resident hunter opportunity - especially for what seems once again to be a healthy moose population. Even Willy agrees that something is f$&@ed up with regard to the mule deer situation - although the finger seems to be firmly pointed at the regional manager caving to pressure from the local GO's. Have I missed something, or is this really the case? I'm 100% in agreement for the calls from various contributors on this forum for residents and GO's to work together for the betterment of all hunters - but it's difficult to sort through the BS.

Coach,
My intent on posting those pics is to show people how silly it is to actually cave to the GO's. Those bucks were killed by regular joes that all have real jobs and yet have a passion for trophy muleys and CONSISTANTLY get er done every year as weekend warriors. Go to the GOABC's websites and then to the individual outfitter's webpages and ckick on their photo galleries for muleys. It is FREAKIN' embarassing how PATHETIC they are. Like I've said before in this thread, even if the GO's got the moon and somehow got muleys on LEH, they still would be shooting dinky rat deer. And like I've said, even if they got serious and actually starting doing their homework like my buddies and I do, they would only be able to get 2 to 3 monsters on the ground per year. That equates to a total of maybe 6 grand more in their pockets but a lot of work to actually get that 6 grand. So why the fuss?
I've hunted Region 5 a lot. I live less than 45 mins from the 3/5 boundary. From my experience hunting trophy muleys over the years, Region 5 has better hunting than Region 3. There are still monsters to be had every year in Region 5. If my buddies and I were to focus on Region 5 like we do in Region 3, we'd still be killing the same quality of deer. I've said it a million times before, it ain't the area, it is the hunter. If I lived in Kelowna, Williams Lake, FSJ, or Castlegar, I'd still be killing the same quality of animals. Not because I am some hotshot, but rather I have a passion for trophy mule deer and would be hunting the same way regardless of where I live.
What goes on in Region 5 actually drastically affects the rest of the province. If Region 5 can't get their $hit together, they will continue to f### over the rest of the southern regions. If they got the moon and got muleys on LEH, how long do ya think it would take before the rest of the southern interior was the same way? Do I kill most of my bucks in Clearwater. Yup! What do ya think the draw odds would be if it went to LEH? I wouldn't be able to hunt my own backyard ever again now would I?

[coach]

Great points, Dana. I agree with you. I grew up in Region 5 and have a decent grasp on the quality of animals in that region. Social management is a very slippery slope that we'd better not be venturing on! Is it a fact that GO's would like to see the entire region go LEH for mule deer? It seems ludicrous. So too, does the fact there is no longer any form of GOS for moose in that region.

[Fisher-Dude]

Coach, here is the Cariboo-Chilcotin GO proposal for mule deer seasons for 2009. As you can see, it would put anything bigger than a spike on LEH, and keep those pesky "out of region" hunters away, creating a "quality hunt" for the GOs to sell.


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/12-21CCGOAProposal-2.jpg

[Fisher-Dude]

Keep in mind, allocation starts at 75/25, so the GOs would get 560 bucks and residents 1,680 bucks. Residents had been averaging about ~ 4,500 bucks a year before the last season change - so we'd be stripping close to 3,000 deer away from the resident hunter. There's not a chance in hell that we'd make that up with unallocated spike bucks, which the GOs generously estimated at 820 for harvest.

[anvilmounguide]

wow...some of you guys should really give your head a shake. What makes you think GO go by different rules than resident hunters?? How do you think a LEH season for Mule deer would benifit GO's more than residents? esspecialy at the 78/21 split we are at now for moose. With an open season Go could take more clients than on a Qouta. Quotas restrict GO to a certian number of animals and hunters. So how would this benifit GO's? Maybe GO's have begun to see a decline in Bucks not just Quality deer.

I know I have. I've lived in the chilcotin for the last 27 years and have seen it myself. here in Big Creek it was not uncommon to get a nice 4 point or better 15 years ago. Now you have to hunt pretty hard to find a buck with atleast 4 points to be leagal to shoot in the 4 point or better season. Any buck for that matter is getting hard to find.

Maybe we should all think about the next 10 years or more and not just the next hunting season. I want to be able to take my kid out in 10 years from now and get him his first buck. As hunters we have the resposibility to make sure the game we hunt is around for the future.

[Fisher-Dude]

Are you basing this on scientific survey data and accepted game management methods under the North American Conservation Model, or just your desire to find your clients a 180" muley standing 50 yards from the road? Because, if you apply the former, your argument falls flat on its nose.

[dana]

Anvil,
If you want to take your kid hunting 10 years from now then you better be one of the outfitters leading the charge against LEH!!!! The quality issue that you speak of was a dirrect result of the Region opening up the rut hunt to ANY buck a few years back. You know that and I know that. Now the rut hunt is canned, it only will take a couple of years to see the older age class deer come back. The outfitters themselves have been part of the cause of lack of older bucks because they've been whackin dinks just like the residents. If they wanted big bucks, they would tell their clients to hold their trigger fingers on those 2-3 year old rats. But nope, they whack em. If quality was their concern, they would pass on those dinks wouldn't they?
The other issue you've got to deal with is the fact that you have a $hitload of deer. It isn't rocket science to know that the more deer you have the harder the winter range gets eaten, the harder it is for a buck to get the nutrition he needs to grow a big set of head gear. The Eastern states have proven this with whitetails. Numerous states have proven this with Elk. And yup, the same goes with muleys. The biggest and baddest muley bucks are normally killed where deer pops are lower but stable. Just look at the AZ Strip as an example of this. All LEH is going to do is save more deer that then will produce more deer that then will produce more deer and you are even more F***ed than when ya started.

[Will]

All LEH is going to do is save more deer that then will produce more deer that then will produce more deer and you are even more F***ed than when ya started.
Couldn't agree more.

[dana]

Another point that needs to be made is that deer change their habits sometimes and do things we don't really understand. If you remember back to the fall of 2010, I couldn't find a deer if my life depended on it for over 2 solid months of hunting. In all my preseason scouting I saw a total of 2 bucks all summer long. The deer hit the timber and went noctural long before hunting season. Why? Predation maybe? Wet lush summer meant they could be safe in the thick crap without having to expose themselves to eat? All I know is the hunting was $hitty. Do I then jump to the conclusion that all the deer are DEAD like most hunters think. Nope, I actually know they ain't dead. They were just good at hiding. And within a very small window of time we saw 3 mature bucks hit the ground with one being an absolute GIANT! If you ain't scouting both summer and winter, if you ain't pounding your area for sheds in the spring, you have no idea of what's going on in your area and what the quality is. All you know is when you jump in the truck and pound the bush roads you ain't seeing deer like you used too. Get out of that truck and hit the timber. You'll find them. Just takes some good old fashioned HARD WORK!

[dana]

Another thing that many outfitters need to come to the realization is, some territories in Region 5 don't encompass all of the deer's homerange. If all you have is lowground like many on the Fraser and Chilcotin, then a lot of years the bucks ain't getting to your territory before the season is finished. While I'm still not certain you can call it GLOBAL WARMING, there is no doubt the weather patterns the last 10 plus years have made late season hunting a crap shoot. The big snows ain't hitting the highcountry till late, thus the mass migrations like we used to see ain't happening. Deer are just trickling down to the low ground instead. A lot of bucks ain't coming down till they absolutely have to and some years, they just ain't coming down at all. Would suck to have a territory where you have to rely on the weather to push them down and can only hunt the small pops of resident deer that live there all year long. Hunters have to adapt. No sense pounding the low ground in your sandles in Oct and Nov if the deer ain't there yet. If you can't adapt, then sucks to be you. Why should the entire province suffer because the GO's in Region 5 can't adapt and are lousy hunters?

[Fisher-Dude]

Interestingly, on Anvil Mountain's website, the following is advertised, which doesn't seem to jive with what's being claimed on here:

"We provide transportation to and from our hunting lodge by horseback and we are the only big game hunting outfitters in our area. Throughout the last few years the quality and abundance of the game available to you our customer has been outstanding. "



Call me a skeptic, but what does one believe? That the deer numbers and quality have been shit hammered into oblivion, or that the last few years have been outstanding in terms of quality and abundance? :confused:

[dana]

Interestingly, on Anvil Mountain's website, the following is advertised, which doesn't seem to jive with what's being claimed on here:

"We provide transportation to and from our hunting lodge by horseback and we are the only big game hunting outfitters in our area. Throughout the last few years the quality and abundance of the game available to you our customer has been outstanding. "



Call me a skeptic, but what does one believe? That the deer numbers and quality have been shit hammered into oblivion, or that the last few years have been outstanding in terms of quality and abundance? :confused:

LMAO!!! :mrgreen::mrgreen: And to think 95% success rate on deer the last couple of years yet not a single picture of a deer that I can see. Hmmm, is Anvil killing rats like most other outfitters in Region 5? At least those South Eastern Yanks think they are big eh? ;)

[coach]

Coach, here is the Cariboo-Chilcotin GO proposal for mule deer seasons for 2009. As you can see, it would put anything bigger than a spike on LEH, and keep those pesky "out of region" hunters away, creating a "quality hunt" for the GOs to sell.


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/12-21CCGOAProposal-2.jpg

Thanks FD! This post makes it a lot easier to spot the bulls$#*t. Kinda makes it a lot harder to figure out how we can all work together with regard to science based game management..

[Island Redneck]

Thanks FD! This post makes it a lot easier to spot the bulls$#*t. Kinda makes it a lot harder to figure out how we can all work together with regard to science based game management..

Who's science. Its kind of funny how the science alway's seems to favour the were the $$$ to do the study come from.

A prime example of science based management is the fisheries on both coasts, hows that workin out.

[dana]

Who's science. Its kind of funny how the science alway's seems to favour the were the $$$ to do the study come from.

A prime example of science based management is the fisheries on both coasts, hows that workin out.

So Island Redneck, if you don't believe in science based management, then who do ya believe? Do you believe the whinning GO who kills rat deer year in and year out and then complains there are no Big Bucks left, or do you believe the guy that kills Monster Bucks year in and year out and says there is not an issue. Do you look at the pictures of the monsters coming out of Region 3 and think to yourself, geeze those guys are doing something right, or do you look at the dinks coming from the GO's in Region 5 and think, wow, I must listen to those guys. Or maybe you go based on your own experience and being from the Island you make 1 trip to the Interior and don't see a big buck so yup, the GO's must be right?

[Fisher-Dude]

Dana, I guess people are apt to believe those who may buy llamas from their llama ranch for use as pack animals. There's a better likelihood of selling llamas to GOs if business is enhanced, than to resident hunters who tend to use more traditional methods of hunting. :-D

Not that it matters, but the MoE conducted the moose surveys in region 8 with their bios and COs along to verify the counts. The BCWF simply provided the money to get the job done.

[The Hermit]

Fisheries?? Isn't that all about industry killing the stocks?? Ownership of quota on a PUBLIC resource?

Dana is still my hero!! I'm hoping you go to the Kamloops Gun Show coming up cause I want to buy you a beer!!

[coach]

Who's science. Its kind of funny how the science alway's seems to favour the were the $$$ to do the study come from.

A prime example of science based management is the fisheries on both coasts, hows that workin out.

Please don't get me started on the fisheries! But, from a guy who has spent many days on the Fraser and has witnessed first hand abuse of the resource and the blind eye turned by fisheries officials on what actually goes on out there, I'm not so sure that much of what goes on in fisheries management isn't social.

Are you suggesting that the recent moose inventory in Region 8 is a farce? Not sure what you're getting at here. Did the GO proposal FD posted on the previous page not look to be socially based?

[Island Redneck]

So Island Redneck, if you don't believe in science based management, then who do ya believe? Do you believe the whinning GO who kills rat deer year in and year out and then complains there are no Big Bucks left, or do you believe the guy that kills Monster Bucks year in and year out and says there is not an issue. Do you look at the pictures of the monsters coming out of Region 3 and think to yourself, geeze those guys are doing something right, or do you look at the dinks coming from the GO's in Region 5 and think, wow, I must listen to those guys. Or maybe you go based on your own experience and being from the Island you make 1 trip to the Interior and don't see a big buck so yup, the GO's must be right?

So what are you saying, because you kill a few monster bucks, that you should be calling the shots on game management in region 5?

You said you were guiding for an outfiiter, how many mosters did you guide your clients to and how many dinks.

I believe science has a part to play in game management, but the science should be conducted by the MOE., not the BCWF. or the GOABC. and the MOE.'s Bio.'s and Regional managers should set the AAH. for the area, keeping conservation in the forfront. No lobbying, no politics and no bullshit from the BCWF. or the GOABC or the anti hunters or anyone else.
They are paid to manage it, let them manage it.

Things havent changed in 20 yrs., eveyone in BC. knows how to run a Guide Outfit better than the guy who's doing it.

IMO. Most of the BCWF. Exec. could give a rats ass about game management for conservation, thier big concern is Resident Hunter oportunity' and some of the GOABC. members are the same, except $$$$ is their big concern.

[Fisher-Dude]

I believe science has a part to play in game management, but the science should be conducted by the MOE., not the BCWF. or the GOABC. and the MOE.'s Bio.'s and Regional managers should set the AAH. for the area, keeping conservation in the forfront. No lobbying, no politics and no bullshit from the BCWF. or the GOABC or the anti hunters or anyone else.
They are paid to manage it, let them manage it.




Not that it matters, but the MoE conducted the moose surveys in region 8 with their bios and COs along to verify the counts. The BCWF simply provided the money to get the job done.

Try again. :-?

[Island Redneck]

Dana, I guess people are apt to believe those who may buy llamas from their llama ranch for use as pack animals. There's a better likelihood of selling llamas to GOs if business is enhanced, than to resident hunters who tend to use more traditional methods of hunting. :-D

Not that it matters, but the MoE conducted the moose surveys in region 8 with their bios and COs along to verify the counts. The BCWF simply provided the money to get the job done.

Geez Fisher Dude I'm impressed with your research skills, but much like the rest of your BCWF. buddies research, its wrong, I dont raise pack Llama's, I raise quallity Suri Llama breeding stock, kinda like the difference between a whitetail and a mulie.:wink:

You wanna do some research, seeing as you know who I am; check out what kind of outfitter I was and the battles I fought without the aid of the BCWF. or the GOABC.

[Fisher-Dude]

No comment on who conducted the moose research you're trying to discredit?

[GoatGuy]

wow...some of you guys should really give your head a shake. What makes you think GO go by different rules than resident hunters?? How do you think a LEH season for Mule deer would benifit GO's more than residents? esspecialy at the 78/21 split we are at now for moose. With an open season Go could take more clients than on a Qouta. Quotas restrict GO to a certian number of animals and hunters. So how would this benifit GO's? Maybe GO's have begun to see a decline in Bucks not just Quality deer.

I know I have. I've lived in the chilcotin for the last 27 years and have seen it myself. here in Big Creek it was not uncommon to get a nice 4 point or better 15 years ago. Now you have to hunt pretty hard to find a buck with atleast 4 points to be leagal to shoot in the 4 point or better season. Any buck for that matter is getting hard to find.

Maybe we should all think about the next 10 years or more and not just the next hunting season. I want to be able to take my kid out in 10 years from now and get him his first buck. As hunters we have the resposibility to make sure the game we hunt is around for the future.

Let's just stick to the facts.

Here's how LEH benefits GO's in the Cariboo.

Moose:


http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/cmoose.jpg

Since the early 90s resident harvest has been cut in half, resident hunter numbers have been cut by 2/3rds and outfitter quota and non-resident hunters have both increased. This is because of LEH and handouts to outfitters.

I'm sure the folks in 100 Mile, Williams Lake and Quesnel have appreciated their opportunity to hunt has been reduced by 67% and their allocation and opportunity given to outfitters.

We don't need to get into outfitter MD harvest as the outfitter harvest on MD bucks has gone up significantly when you compare the last 10 years to the previous 30.

It isn't about conservation, it's anti-resident in that part of the world.

[dana]

So what are you saying, because you kill a few monster bucks, that you should be calling the shots on game management in region 5?

You said you were guiding for an outfiiter, how many mosters did you guide your clients to and how many dinks.

I believe science has a part to play in game management, but the science should be conducted by the MOE., not the BCWF. or the GOABC. and the MOE.'s Bio.'s and Regional managers should set the AAH. for the area, keeping conservation in the forfront. No lobbying, no politics and no bullshit from the BCWF. or the GOABC or the anti hunters or anyone else.
They are paid to manage it, let them manage it.

Things havent changed in 20 yrs., eveyone in BC. knows how to run a Guide Outfit better than the guy who's doing it.

IMO. Most of the BCWF. Exec. could give a rats ass about game management for conservation, thier big concern is Resident Hunter oportunity' and some of the GOABC. members are the same, except $$$$ is their big concern.

I didn't say I should be calling the shots in game management. I'm just a lowly wood tick and I hunt for meat and for pleasure. I happen to just be out in the field a hell of a lot more than the vast majority of outfitters. You said you don't trust the science, and my question back to you was who are you going to trust then? And if you know anything about trophy muleys, I don't just kill a few. What my friends and I have been doing consistantly is actually more than just a 'few' monster muleys. ;)

As for my guiding, I only guided 1 mule deer hunt in my short guiding career. And the hunter went home with nothing. Guess I must suck eh?

[Island Redneck]

Let's just stick to the facts.

Here's how LEH benefits GO's in the Cariboo.

Moose:


http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/cmoose.jpg

Can you tell me the difference in the number of animals the GO.'s are taking before and after the LEH.? Are the GO. taking more or less animals.

[Snowpatrol]

Awesome animals, Dana! Your hunting abilities, knowledge and experiences are great for all of us to learn from. Although, I'm not sure if it's a diversion from the topic at hand.

I've followed this entire thread and a few of the other current debates with great interest. I'm still trying to figure out what really is going on in region 5 and hopeful that things will improve in the next few years with regard to resident hunter opportunity - especially for what seems once again to be a healthy moose population. Even Willy agrees that something is f$&@ed up with regard to the mule deer situation - although the finger seems to be firmly pointed at the regional manager caving to pressure from the local GO's. Have I missed something, or is this really the case? I'm 100% in agreement for the calls from various contributors on this forum for residents and GO's to work together for the betterment of all hunters - but it's difficult to sort through the BS.

Its the other way around the regional manager has listened to the BCWF for the past 5 yrs and now there is way less mule deer in parts of region 5 as there used to be... You know.. he parts that everyone and their dog hunts ! Other parts of region 5 not so hard hit are still doing well ! But the regulations that were in place were for "HUNTER OPPORTUNITY" and now there is a problem.. Kill'em all ! we want hunter opportunity ! BCWF ! So.... if we kill all the deer off..... will there be any opportunity at all >????? You tell me !

[dana]

Sooo you think it's a good thing to have historically high deer pops that are exceeding the carrying capacity of the land base?? In the last 5 years they have handed out a $hitload of doe tags and if they didn't, you guys actually would have something to bitch about.

[GoatGuy]

Can you tell me the difference in the number of animals the GO.'s are taking before and after the LEH.? Are the GO. taking more or less animals.

More

1993 99
1994 152
1995 153
1996 139
1997 181
1998 159
1999 146 LEH
2000 200
2001 203
2002 235
2003 263
2004 267
2005 269

2010 AAH 298

This is pretty typical for BC.

[GoatGuy]

Its the other way around the regional manager has listened to the BCWF for the past 5 yrs and now there is way less mule deer in parts of region 5 as there used to be... You know.. he parts that everyone and their dog hunts ! Other parts of region 5 not so hard hit are still doing well ! But the regulations that were in place were for "HUNTER OPPORTUNITY" and now there is a problem.. Kill'em all ! we want hunter opportunity ! BCWF ! So.... if we kill all the deer off..... will there be any opportunity at all >????? You tell me !

Hahaha, that isn't accurate.

The litterature from the MoE for the changes are pretty explicit. The goal was to increase the trophy buck component and that was for outfitters in Region 5.

Straight from outfitters in Region 5, it isn't just about more bucks, it's about more trophy bucks.

There's nothing in there about conservation, sustainability or a conservation concern, never has been.

If you feel the urge to bring some fact into the discussion or anything about conservation, please feel free. Otherwise, I'm sure you can find a debate at Toys R Us.

[Snowpatrol]

Can you tell me the difference in the number of animals the GO.'s are taking before and after the LEH.? Are the GO. taking more or less animals.

is this an allocation or actual harvest numbers ??? How come there's a bunch of years missing ?? Didn't you like those ones and couldn't post because they didn't look good for your argument ??

[Snowpatrol]

Hahaha, that isn't accurate.

The litterature from the MoE for the changes are pretty explicit. The goal was to increase the trophy buck component and that was for outfitters in Region 5.

Straight from outfitters in Region 5, it isn't just about more bucks, it's about more trophy bucks.

There's nothing in there about conservation, sustainability or a conservation concern, never has been.

If you feel the urge to bring some fact into the discussion or anything about conservation, please feel free. Otherwise, I'm sure you can find a debate at Toys R Us.

Oh... thats a good one there bud ! I have plenty of facts.. but they are from the field ! Endless hours in the bush.. not at my desk ! BCWF joke ! Hunter opportunity ya ! roughly 2400 bucks get harvested out of region 5 ! oh.. ya the outfitter maybe take 30 tops ! There some numbers for ya if you want to play just numbers instead of in field knowledge !

[Fisher-Dude]

Its the other way around the regional manager has listened to the BCWF for the past 5 yrs and now there is way less mule deer in parts of region 5 as there used to be... You know.. he parts that everyone and their dog hunts ! Other parts of region 5 not so hard hit are still doing well ! But the regulations that were in place were for "HUNTER OPPORTUNITY" and now there is a problem.. Kill'em all ! we want hunter opportunity ! BCWF ! So.... if we kill all the deer off..... will there be any opportunity at all >????? You tell me !




It is our professional judgment, however, based on population inventory data provided by the Williams Lake Wildlife Office and the provincial Annual Hunter Sample and anecdotal reports of experienced hunters and ranchers, including some of our own observations, that deer and moose populations have reached and may be exceeding the carrying capacity of their habitats. Responsible wildlife management puts conservation first, considers all interests and prescribes sustainable harvest levels, which, in the case of the Cariboo-Chilcotin, means greater hunting opportunities, not fewer as prescribed by the Williams Lake regional manager. The overly-restrictive regulations that have been implemented in Region 5 over the past 10 to 12 years place the deer and moose populations at risk for a severe overwinter die-off such as occurred in the Peace River in the 2006-2007 winter. Such die-offs
occurred in the Cariboo and Chilcotin in the past when deer and moose populations
exceeded the carrying capacity of their habitats and benefitted no one.



Dan Blower, retired BC Ungulate Coordinator
Ken Child, retired Omineca Region, Wildlife Section Head
Ray Demarchi, retired BC Chief of Wildlife
Fred Harper, retired Thompson-Nicola, Regional Wildlife Section Head
Doug Janz, retired Vancouver Region, Regional Wildlife Section Head
Dave Low, retired Thompson-Nicola, Regional Wildlife Biologist
Bill Munro, retired BC Wildlife Branch, Deputy Director
Bruce Pendergast, retired BC Manager, Wildlife Inventory Section


Whom should we believe? Eight highly respected professional biologists, or Snowballs?

[GoatGuy]

is this an allocation or actual harvest numbers ??? How come there's a bunch of years missing ?? Didn't you like those ones and couldn't post because they didn't look good for your argument ??

If you have anything to contribute, please feel free.

Don't have 06-09 on this machine, but you probably know there were plenty more handouts. If a person takes a close look at the quota in Region 5 you'll find certain outfitters were way over-allocated and some under-allocated after the opportunity was taken from residents.

The distribution was never fair, typically it was a couple outfitters leeching the majority of the harvest off of residents, as opposed to an equal or a distribution that is actually reflective of the number of moose in their territories.

Outfitters hosing other outfitters, nice.

[mpotzold]

[quote=TPK;852739]Region 5 is one of the only Regions without some sort of an open Moose hunt and we've got the population to support it.

Agree!

Simply a concerned resident hunter & a proud member of BCWF!
Re: game management in Reg. 5-something smells rotten in the state of Denmark.:mad:
Seems to me like the MOE manager(s) has caved in as expected to the persistent & probably threatening pressure from the FN’s .
Questionable counting methods if any done? along with the biased & anecdotal help of the self serving G/O’s- the type & number of available game to be used in the allocation policy calculation has been doctored up by the manager(s) at our cost.(the 90,000 hunters of BC)

When it comes to allocations- IMO the G/O’s should be the low man on the totem pole.(sort of like sucking the hind teat scenario). PERIOD!:evil:

Case in point!
FD &SSS posts
“You're right Willy...that $40,000 did nothing for wildlife...but it did provide a much better moose count than the previous one. They found that we had twice the numbers of moose than they previously thought;”

I’ve been hunting Reg 5(mostly 03) since the later 60’s. In those days there were 2x as many hunters & no more deer/moose than nowadays. One was allowed to shoot deer of any sex(3 per season I think) & the season was longer.
So what gives?:confused:
In 5-03 the deer/moose population seems healthy. It’s not uncommon for us to see 6 or more moose in a day when deer hunting. (recently posted a photo of the 6 or 7 moose we saw) The area could easily sustain a shorter bull moose GOS hunt at least every couple of years.
(I’m not a fan of a short GOS for spike-forks nor calf/cow which should be on LEH if the numbers warrant)
I thought that the GOS moose closure was temporary as promised! :cry:

Re: 4 pts only in Sept. – no real basis for implementation. Being a meat hunter-couldn’t give a squat about the size of the headgear so Sept. my favourite month for deer is out.
There are plenty of deer in the area-all one needs is a good pair of boots!

Don’t understand!:shock:
On the way to 5-03 we normally use the Meadow Lake Road(sometime the Big Bar Lake Road)(Region 3-31)
In all the years on these roads we have seen one moose & maybe a couple dozen or so deer yet there is an open season on spike-fork bulls & a generous mule deer & whitetail deer(including antlerless) season!
We’ve spent days hunting the NW portion of 3-31 & have hardly ever seen a sign of moose/deer even after a fresh snowfall.(never even shot at one in the area)

IMO The manager(s) for Region 5 deserve the boot!

[Fisher-Dude]

Oh... thats a good one there bud ! I have plenty of facts.. but they are from the field ! Endless hours in the bush.. not at my desk ! BCWF joke ! Hunter opportunity ya ! roughly 2400 bucks get harvested out of region 5 ! oh.. ya the outfitter maybe take 30 tops ! There some numbers for ya if you want to play just numbers instead of in field knowledge !


Coach, here is the Cariboo-Chilcotin GO proposal for mule deer seasons for 2009. As you can see, it would put anything bigger than a spike on LEH, and keep those pesky "out of region" hunters away, creating a "quality hunt" for the GOs to sell.


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/12-21CCGOAProposal-2.jpg

So if they only take 30, why did their proposal guarantee them an AAH of 560 mule deer?

[Snowpatrol]

So if they only take 30, why did their proposal guarantee them an AAH of 560 mule deer?

You're the numbers guy ! You tell us ! How many mule deer did the outfitters take ???? Tell me !

[Fisher-Dude]

You're the numbers guy ! You tell us ! How many mule deer did the outfitters take ???? Tell me !

Why did the guide outfitters' mule deer proposal guarantee them 560 mule deer if they only harvest 30 deer?

[GoatGuy]

Oh... thats a good one there bud ! I have plenty of facts.. but they are from the field ! Endless hours in the bush.. not at my desk ! BCWF joke ! Hunter opportunity ya ! roughly 2400 bucks get harvested out of region 5 ! oh.. ya the outfitter maybe take 30 tops ! There some numbers for ya if you want to play just numbers instead of in field knowledge !

Neither one of those harvest numbers for residents or outfitters are accurate for Region 5 - they're both fictitious, probably the same as your field knowledge.

Looking at your posts on illegal guiding for residents my guess is you're one of the ones who's ticked off your hand got caught in the cookie jar.

That is unfortunate.

However, as I've said before 245 or so outfitters shouldn't be dictating the allocation and hunting regulations for 95,000 resident hunters in BC.

Too many handouts.

[Island Redneck]

I didn't say I should be calling the shots in game management. I'm just a lowly wood tick and I hunt for meat and for pleasure. I happen to just be out in the field a hell of a lot more than the vast majority of outfitters. You said you don't trust the science, and my question back to you was who are you going to trust then? And if you know anything about trophy muleys, I don't just kill a few. What my friends and I have been doing consistantly is actually more than just a 'few' monster muleys. ;)

As for my guiding, I only guided 1 mule deer hunt in my short guiding career. And the hunter went home with nothing. Guess I must suck eh?

I have no problem with science as long as is done on the up and up, science has a way of leaning in the direction of the group that pays for the study. BC. has a tendency to mix science, politics and public opinion in their wildlife management.

I only have your word for it that your a great mule deer hunter, but you say it often enough, it must be true.:mrgreen:

Cant judge a guide by one hunt, but if you were guiding for me, I wouldnt let it happen again.:twisted:

[GoatGuy]

I have no problem with science as long as is done on the up and up, science has a way of leaning in the direction of the group that pays for the study. BC. has a tendency to mix science, politics and public opinion in their wildlife management.


Science depends on the person(s) conducting the work.

The study that has been referred to here was conducted by one of the most respected 'scientists' in NA when it comes to inventory work. There were no 'organization' representatives on any of the flights, F&W branch staff were on the flights as well as the work was peer reviewed by another consultant who has done inventory work across BC for years.

The F&W Branch was involved in the study design, implementation and reviewed the final product.

This was more expensive, but was done to ensure transparency.

I hope that helps, but who knows.

[dana]

Cant judge a guide by one hunt, but if you were guiding for me, I wouldnt let it happen again.:twisted:

Can't blame the guide when the client misses.

[Devilbear]

Wildlife "management" HAS to mix "science" AND public opinion and is thus usually directed by politics; this is a democracy and what the people want takes precedence over any specific prescription concerning any aspect of environmental management. That is how we have managed to preserve some wilderness areas from resource extraction and how we can obtain the public support for spending scarce tax dollars on game transplants, habitat improvement-restoration and fisheries projects, among other issues.

"Science" merely gives us a certain "toolbox" with which to make informed and, hopefully, sustainable decisions as to policies concerning access to and uses of resources; the deciding factor is always what the public wants in respect of implementing scientific data-based policies over time.

I have the utmost respect for professional bios and other enviro.-scientists and have studied these sciences myself. While not a working pro-bio or forester, I have some education and lots of field experience and can honestly state that even the most skilled and experienced bio. can and sometimes does err in developing management prescriptions, which is where the great value of public involvement in and questioning of government policies exists.

Public involvement is necessary, productive, democratic and any suggestion that "we" should allow the managers we pay to act on their own is both foolish and shortsighted. We would not have the parks, fish hatcheries, wildlife conservation policies and CORE programmes we benefit from in BC had it not been for members of the public...as a study of environmental history here will deomnstrate.

I am also a proud and as much as I can be, active BCWF member and intend to continue in that as long as my health and private responsibilities allow me to. The Fed is a good and caring outfit and BC would be a lot worse off without it!

[Island Redneck]

Can't blame the guide when the client misses.

Guides fault all the way, did you make sure his gun was on, did you get him close enough, did you make sure he was set up properly, it is never the hunters fault.

[dana]

Guides fault all the way, did you make sure his gun was on, did you get him close enough, did you make sure he was set up properly, it is never the hunters fault.

Thus the reason I'd rather hunt with family and friends. The guy pulling the trigger is the only one resposible for his shooting. If he misses, he gets ribbed for a very very long time. And if he burns down a wall tent or forgets his rifle on the last day, you can bet he'll never hear the end of it. ;)

[Fisher-Dude]

Guides fault all the way, did you make sure his gun was on, did you get him close enough, did you make sure he was set up properly, it is never the hunters fault.

What if he poops his pants after eating moose chili the night before? Do you wipe his arse clean for him too?

[willy442]

Nope, not every bear I shoot is 7 plus. I've only ever killed one over 7. My son has only killed 1 as well. The rest of his were 6' or better. My daughter's one and only bear was 7. So what is that? 3 bears that were 7 or over in the last 6 years and a lot that are wayyyy smaller. Heck I personally killed a 5'6 bear a few years ago because it was the prettiest bear I've ever seen.



I don't argue for a minute that you are an accomplished hunter. However an animal that is 6 feet on the carcass, should not be stretched length wise with your whole family pulling to make it 7 feet. If you want the true measurement. Lay your hide out and square it like everyone else. I've been around and hunted too much to have the wool pulled over my eyes.



When I guided bears, the outfit was killing 35-40 a year. The Europeans weren't focused on size like the Yanks and I saw a $hitload of 5 footers hit the ground. But what a cash cow for the outfitter. 6 grand for a 2 on 1 hunt. Jam a ton of hunters into one month and sell them 2 tags. And then charge them a $500 trophy fee on their first bear and a $1000 trophy fee on the second bear. Geeze, do the math. I know a ton of the southern BC GO's are killing the same amount of bears. If they want to increase the economical viability of their outfits, this is where they can really make the money. Not muleys. They should be pushing the ministry to increase the baglimits on bears from 2 to 5 like it was in the 80's.


You make out like there is a European behind every tree looking for Black Bear. Sorry but it's not the case. Yes they love to hunt bear and moose and they are out there but not in droves. You feel there is enough bears to have a slaughter like this?



But, Willy, lets get back to the topic at hand. Answer my question. Why the fuss from the GO's in Region 5 when you full know the MONEY ain't there?


If I was a G/O from region 5, just maybe I could answer your question. However I'm not and I do not know the issue's. GG has stated some, but if the deer are in a hurting situation due to the season that was opened. I believe we have a problem with the person or people that allowed it. I do remember some posts on this matter awhile back and it seems there was support from some on resident opportunity.

[willy442]

Coach,
My intent on posting those pics is to show people how silly it is to actually cave to the GO's. Those bucks were killed by regular joes that all have real jobs and yet have a passion for trophy muleys and CONSISTANTLY get er done every year as weekend warriors. Go to the GOABC's websites and then to the individual outfitter's webpages and ckick on their photo galleries for muleys. It is FREAKIN' embarassing how PATHETIC they are. Like I've said before in this thread, even if the GO's got the moon and somehow got muleys on LEH, they still would be shooting dinky rat deer. And like I've said, even if they got serious and actually starting doing their homework like my buddies and I do, they would only be able to get 2 to 3 monsters on the ground per year. That equates to a total of maybe 6 grand more in their pockets but a lot of work to actually get that 6 grand. So why the fuss?
I've hunted Region 5 a lot. I live less than 45 mins from the 3/5 boundary. From my experience hunting trophy muleys over the years, Region 5 has better hunting than Region 3. There are still monsters to be had every year in Region 5. If my buddies and I were to focus on Region 5 like we do in Region 3, we'd still be killing the same quality of deer. I've said it a million times before, it ain't the area, it is the hunter. If I lived in Kelowna, Williams Lake, FSJ, or Castlegar, I'd still be killing the same quality of animals. Not because I am some hotshot, but rather I have a passion for trophy mule deer and would be hunting the same way regardless of where I live.
What goes on in Region 5 actually drastically affects the rest of the province. If Region 5 can't get their $hit together, they will continue to f### over the rest of the southern regions. If they got the moon and got muleys on LEH, how long do ya think it would take before the rest of the southern interior was the same way? Do I kill most of my bucks in Clearwater. Yup! What do ya think the draw odds would be if it went to LEH? I wouldn't be able to hunt my own backyard ever again now would I?

Dana; Nice Deer. None of my posts have been critiszing your hunting ability. My posts on every occassion are directed at your integrety on the issue's you speak of. For one thing I have a Mule Deer that ranks right the ones you've taken and shot him while using a hay bale for a rest. My white tail scores 202 and I shot him leaning over the back of my pick up which was partially hid behind a hay bale with country tunes playing on the radio. The guide up here frequently takes deer as good as yours. The fact I've never hunted where you do leaves me questioning just how hard it is to get these deer. I have a friend on the Island the meets up with a buddy from the loops every year and they also constantly take the caliber of deer that you seem to think is such an accomplishment. Point being if you feel that you have mastered the art of hunting huge deer, 7ft 9in cougars and the worlds biggest black bears. It is my believe you are wasting your talents and should probably invest in a guiding operation, with success like you have in a couple of years your wealth would rival Bill Gates..

[dana]

Willy,
There is no pulling the wool over anyone's eyes. People have seen enough dead bears over the years on these sites to know full well that these ones are indeed BIG. When I mention a length, I always mention the way I measure. Hide off, skull in, hide snug but not pulled, nose to tail. Some people like to square bears, that's fine. I don't do it. If you think somehow I'm adding some inches by pulling the hide, doesn't really mean jackshit to me. People can think what they think. No different than the size of any animal. There will always be that segment that likes to call Bull$hit. But regardless if you think they are legit 7 footers or not, there is no denying they are BIG BEARS.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Hunting%20Pics/05BB1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Hunting%20Pics/Codys2009BlackBear013a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Hunting%20Pics/Codys2009BlackBear015a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Hunting%20Pics/May212010017.jpg

[willy442]

Please don't get me started on the fisheries! But, from a guy who has spent many days on the Fraser and has witnessed first hand abuse of the resource and the blind eye turned by fisheries officials on what actually goes on out there, I'm not so sure that much of what goes on in fisheries management isn't social.

Are you suggesting that the recent moose inventory in Region 8 is a farce? Not sure what you're getting at here. Did the GO proposal FD posted on the previous page not look to be socially based?

You are forming an opinion by looking at one side of the story. Maybe FD should post the BCWF papers that prompted the paper he posted.

[dana]

Dana; Nice Deer. None of my posts have been critiszing your hunting ability. My posts on every occassion are directed at your integrety on the issue's you speak of. For one thing I have a Mule Deer that ranks right the ones you've taken and shot him while using a hay bale for a rest. My white tail scores 202 and I shot him leaning over the back of my pick up which was partially hid behind a hay bale with country tunes playing on the radio. The guide up here frequently takes deer as good as yours. The fact I've never hunted where you do leaves me questioning just how hard it is to get these deer. I have a friend on the Island the meets up with a buddy from the loops every year and they also constantly take the caliber of deer that you seem to think is such an accomplishment. Point being if you feel that you have mastered the art of hunting huge deer, 7ft 9in cougars and the worlds biggest black bears. It is my believe you are wasting your talents and should probably invest in a guiding operation, with success like you have in a couple of years your wealth would rival Bill Gates..

Willy,
While you like to stir the pot, so do I. By posting up my pics and seeing what a regular joe can do, I'm showing people how Pathetic the complaints of the GO's are in the Cariboo. And I know it pisses them off, and that my friend is indeed the point. Whine, Bitch and Moan about the lack of trophy bucks, call your MLA, try to put the resident on LEH, and some jack ass like me who has a full-time job puts the outfitters to shame. I, in no way am saying I'm the best. If you think that's what I'm saying, then you've missed the point entirely. I'm glad you've killed some big critters in your career. Good for you! Always nice to have a few animals on your wall that bring back the memories of the hunt for your twilight years. The fact your buddy can come up here and do the same just makes my point even more. Region 3 has the most liberal seasons in the province, starting Sept 1 and ending Dec 10th. The mismanagment of Region 5 has made Region 3 take up the slack as the only southern Region open during the rut, meaning the residents from all corners of the province flock here and yet we still produce Crankers. Hmmm, why can't the outfitters in Region 5 do the same?

As for your thinking I should be a GO, well dude, I've had the offer numerous times, turned them down everytime. I can have the backing any time I want it, but I don't want it. And I've been offered guide jobs from the NWT to Mexico and I've turned those down as well. There is more to life than money. Hunting is my passion, it don't need to be a job. Far more fun to hunt with family and friends than complete strangers.

[Fisher-Dude]

My white tail scores 202 and I shot him leaning over the back of my pick up which was partially hid behind a hay bale with country tunes playing on the radio.

That would be illegal.

[bigwhiteys]

That would be illegal.
Haha... Welcome to deer hunting in the peace... if they could hand out all those fines F&W would be rollin' in the dough!

Carl

[DV-67]

That would be illegal.

LOL .......... Lets see what he comes up with to excuse this?

[DV-67]

Haha... Welcome to deer hunting in the peace... if they could hand out all those fines F&W would be rollin' in the dough!

Carl

Everyone is doing it so that makes it OK??????????????

[Gateholio]

That would be illegal.

No, it's not.

[bigwhiteys]

Everyone is doing it so that makes it OK??????????????


I am sure in due time, watching someone shoot off the tailgate/hood/box/window sill of their truck will be on the mild side of what you see up there during the peak of deer season!

Carl

[mark]

Killman,
Sorry, the bucks have been shed out for a month now. Maybe a coule of little dinks still packin' but the big boys were shed out a long time ago. :)

Not here they're not, most big bucks still packing!


No, it's not.

Good call on the play of words Gates......Wily said leaning "over"...not leaning "on"!

[DV-67]

I am sure in due time, watching someone shoot off the tailgate/hood/box/window sill of their truck will be on the mild side of what you see up there during the peak of deer season!

Carl

Your probably right. Was a crazy all the hunters here for the aug moose opening.

[The Hermit]

No, it's not.

Yes it is!

[Gateholio]

Yes it is!

Not if the rifle is not contacting the vehicle.

If the loaded firearm is making contact with the vehicle, it's illegal. If you are holding the firearm in your hands and both feet are on the ground and you are using your elbows to lean on the vehicle, it is legal.

According to the head CO of BC, anyway.

[coach]

You are forming an opinion by looking at one side of the story. Maybe FD should post the BCWF papers that prompted the paper he posted.

Willy, so far I have the following information to base my opinions on:

- FD's paper where the GO's clearly stated their goals of improving quality of hunt by reducing the number of hunters (crowding) in an effort to improve the quality of deer so they can have more trophy hunts to sell. How does this fit with managing what's best for the deer population in a way that puts conservation first?

- Snowpatrol's anecdotal claims about the "2 buck slaughter" that has lead to the "decimation" of region 5 mule deer. I have to say, Willy, that I respect your opinions. I would have to give serious consideration to anecdotal evidence from you about animal populations in the areas you've guided/outfitted. I have a real tough time with Snowpatrol's assertions though. As I would prefer to base my decisions on scientific studies of deer populations, I believe the anecdotal information can only be used to adjust or debate counts. As I grew up in region 5 and hunted it most years between the early 80's and 2009, I have my own opinion that animal populations are as strong now as they have been at any point during those years. I don't believe my opinion should really count though, as it would be hypocritical of me to ignore science. Maybe I'm just better at spotting game now..:???:

- Assertions from the GO's that the buck to doe ration in the region is out of line, contradicted by GG's information suggesting that ratio is right around 20:100. GO's are pushing for a ratio of 35:100 which seems kinda fishy when 20:100 is acceptable everywhere else.

- A letter signed by 8 retired experts in the field of game management in British Columbia criticizing the Region 5 manager and the direction game management has gone in that region. Including this quote: "It is our professional judgment, however, based on population inventory data provided by the Williams Lake Wildlife Office and the provincial Annual Hunter Sample and anecdotal reports of experienced hunters and ranchers, including some of our own observations, that deer and moose populations have reached and may be exceeding the carrying capacity of their habitats."

If you've got some info about some BCWF papers that are pertinent to the conversation, please enlighten us. I'm beginning to strengthen my opinions.

[mark]

Not if the rifle is not contacting the vehicle.

If the loaded firearm is making contact with the vehicle, it's illegal. If you are holding the firearm in your hands and both feet are on the ground and you are using your elbows to lean on the vehicle, it is legal.

According to the head CO of BC, anyway.


What???? so as long as yer fingers are between the stock and the hood its legal????? :shock:

[Gateholio]

What???? so as long as yer fingers are between the stock and the hood its legal????? :shock:

Essentially yes.

Although I wouldn't just use my fingers, that is maybe a a bit to risky.:tongue:

I'm surprised nobody else read the email about the topic that was posted last year here!:-D

[Ambush]

Essentially yes.Although I wouldn't just use my fingers, that is maybe a a bit to risky.:tongue:

Use your hat, pack, jacket, half eaten sub-sandwich or any other inanimate object. The gun should not be touching the vehicle.

[Kirby]

If you've got some info about some BCWF papers that are pertinent to the conversation, please enlighten us. I'm beginning to strengthen my opinions.

Awaiting a response.

Kirby

[willy442]

That would be illegal.

Would you care to explain how it is breaking the law. Just what I like, some guy that rides around on a quad critisizing someone from being misinformed. Not the first time and damn sure won't be the last for you will it?:-D

[willy442]

Awaiting a response.

Kirby

It's called fighting for resident opportunity. Prime example right now is Elk in the Bulkley Valley residents want them opened up for hunting. You should research how many are wandering around there.:)