Break the top records

[Hunting/addict]

What are peoples thoughts on the top big game records in British Columbia? Do you think any of them can be beaten and if so which ones?

[Joel]

My brother got a black bear this spring that was good for top 70 something in the BC book.
This was on a 3 day hunt.
I totally think the records are touchable, it just wont be easy.

[lip_ripper00]

Hell ya!! Getting my ass out 250 days a year hunting, if you don't think this is a big game record you can argue with the wife:mrgreen:

[bighornbob]

The Mule deer and california bighorn were just beaten a few years ago. And the mountain goat about 5 years before that. So yes some are toppling and I am sure a few more will in the next 10 year sor so. I would say elk may topple in the next few years as some monsters are coming out of region 7.

BHB

[BCbillies]

With a combination of effort and luck goat should be attainable! Unlike sheep many areas that hold goats are basically untouched. Big goats die of old age every year even in the "easy" access areas. The record will likely be broken by some portly southerner who paid $14,000 for the hunt who is more focussed on the 7lbs of smarties in the tent than what's over the next knoll! :wink:

[MountainHigh]

I think the Chadwick Ram will not be beaten. IMHO

[BCrams]

The Mule deer and california bighorn were just beaten a few years ago. And the mountain goat about 5 years before that. So yes some are toppling and I am sure a few more will in the next 10 year sor so. I would say elk may topple in the next few years as some monsters are coming out of region 7.

BHB


You surely must have meant the great elk area of the West Kootenays in Region 4 and not region 7 8)

Goat will be tough but can be broken, White-tailed deer, elk, moose, typical mule deer get the nod as best chance to break and maybe caribou also and and the hardest to break is definatly Stone's sheep. Dall sheep also can be broken......smashed in fact if a guy can get to where some big rams are rumoured to exist.

[troutseeker]

I think the Chadwick Ram will not be beaten. IMHO

You mean the ram that Chadwick's guide shot will not be beaten?:-D

[hunter1947]

My thoughts are is that most can be beaten sooner or latter except maybe a few species ,being in the right place at the right time as for hunting an isolated area that carries good gene pool where the animal can get into the adult age.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Next one we'll see tumble might be typical whitetail. We've seen some real dandies in the last few yrs but they just need to be "clean".

Forget beating the #1 Stone Sheep and non-typ muley. It ain't gonna happen.

Given time everything else could tumble.

SSS

[digger dogger]

You mean the ram that Chadwick's guide shot will not be beaten?:-D

I heard it was the camp-cook,that shot The Chadwick Ram..

the #1 (b.c)typ mulie was shot just a handful of years ago, imo it can be broken. 209 and change. i'm pretty sure..

[mark]

I heard it was the camp-cook,that shot The Chadwick Ram..

the #1 (b.c)typ mulie was shot just a handful of years ago, imo it can be broken. 209 and change. i'm pretty sure..

Actually the # typical mulie record was broken 2 years in a row...2005 & 2006 I believe!
I plan on breaking that record one of these days! :-D

Not likely we will ever see the non-typ record touched, or even close to!

Im amazed the #1 whitey typical hasnt been broken recently, there was a couple close calls just around the okanagan this year!

Not sure about bears and cats, but I dont see why those couldnt be broken at any time????

[MountainHigh]

Goat will be tough but can be broken

This one will be broken...and probably sooner than later. These big billies are there we are just not accessing them so they are dying of age.

Stone Sheep rams of the size of the current record are currently not existing out there.

Interestingly, I read the original transcripts of Chadwicks hunt. These guys went through a lot....and regardless of who shot it, it is the most impressive big game trophy in my mind.8)

[bigwhiteys]

I think the Chadwick Ram will not be beaten. IMHO
I know my Grandpa was flying with Bob Kjos one winter day way back when, when they both saw a ram that they thought could have rivaled the Chadwick. They always thought it would be beaten in mass and not length.

Carl

[Weatherby Fan]

I'm pretty sure the typical Mule Deer will be broken in next few years,and if I could have one record book animal in my lifetime it would be the typical Mule Deer !

[winbuckhunter]

i think typical whitetail will get beaten here in bc.. its just a matter of time.. specially with all these feeds that are out there growing deer to their full potential.

[mfarrally]

I imagine everything other than stone sheep is beatable. The number one Dall is a real beauty but i imagine could be broken.

[jml11]

Not sure about bears and cats, but I dont see why those couldnt be broken at any time????

The number one Grizzly is over 29" but it is a pick up, I can't recall the number two but I think there is quite the seperation between the two skulls. The 29" mark might be unseen for BC grizzlies again but one did grow that big so perhaps another one could as well one day?

Considering the 209" mule deer appears to have had a large deduction as the back tines are quite uneven suggests a "cleaner" buck in the future could beat that one! I look forward to seeing you holding that rack one day Mark :wink:.

As Elk and White-tailed deer populations continue to spread and hunting seasons become more liberal for those animals, we are likely bound to see those records broken as well. Heck look at the non-typical category for elk, I believe the 2nd and 3rd Hunter killed animals (don't have book in front of me to confirm) were taken in the last few years, both in areas that offered new seasons that year :wink:. And one of the top pick ups was recent as well.

[kennyj]

I think all the records could be broken. There has been lots of exceptional animals taken recently.There's a lot of country out there.
kenny

[dana]

When you consider the Dewdney Buck is the #2 NT muley in the World, and it was killed well over 100 years ago, it ain't ever gonna get beat. It took a panel of 3 teams of scorers to score it for the B&C and they couldn't come up with the same score twice. The entry score was actually 380 and change, making it a #1 world contender. They ran out of time at the Panel and settled on the current 339 and change. Just like the Chip Lake Buck from Alberta, the Dewdney Buck will not be beaten.
As for Typical mule deer, yup, I can see it being beaten. We have strong mainframe bucks in this province but we definately have the trash factor in the genetics. Hard to find a clean typical with no extras as deductions. But doable IMO.
Cougar is another species that is unlikely to ever see beat.

[vortex]

The number one Grizzly is over 29" but it is a pick up,
That skull was (is?) at Ganders Taxidermy. Very Impressive. Eric Gander (RIP) told me the story of how he ended up with it. A great story to go with a remarkable skull.

[mark]

[quote=jml11;837553]The number one Grizzly is over 29" but it is a pick up, I can't recall the number two but I think there is quite the seperation between the two skulls. The 29" mark might be unseen for BC grizzlies again but one did grow that big so perhaps another one could as well one day?

I could be wrong here, just going from memory, so dont slay me....
Isnt the #1 grizzly skull a 3 way tie???
Somehow I thought 1 is from alaska, another picked up in bella coola???
Does this sound right to anyone else???

Dana why would the cougar record not be beat???? Is the #1 a freak??

[dana]

Mark,
Yup, 16 4/16 is pretty much a freak. #1 in the World with only 3 others that I am aware of that break the 16 mark. It is highly unlikely will see a tom killed bigger than Schuk's.

[BromBones]

I know my Grandpa was flying with Bob Kjos one winter day way back when, when they both saw a ram that they thought could have rivaled the Chadwick. They always thought it would be beaten in mass and not length.

Carl

My uncle often talks about that ram after a whiskey drink and some huntin' talk - he heard the same story from Bob quite a few years ago.:)

All these record animals are a combination of genetics, feed, and habitat coming together, and one hard working (or lucky) hunter in the right place at the right time. Pretty slim odds of that happening too many times, but anything's possible.

[Weatherby Fan]

[quote=jml11;837553]The number one Grizzly is over 29" but it is a pick up, I can't recall the number two but I think there is quite the seperation between the two skulls. The 29" mark might be unseen for BC grizzlies again but one did grow that big so perhaps another one could as well one day?

I could be wrong here, just going from memory, so dont slay me....
Isnt the #1 grizzly skull a 3 way tie???
Somehow I thought 1 is from alaska, another picked up in bella coola???
Does this sound right to anyone else???

Dana why would the cougar record not be beat???? Is the #1 a freak??

grizzly-1-29 2/16
and 2 tied for second at 27 2/16

[sherpa-Al]

I'm fairly certain that the mountain goat archery record will be broken this fall. I go out every fall with my bow chasing goats with that goal in mind:mrgreen:. So far it hasn't panned out but you gotta start somewhere! With the amount of country that can be accessed these days it's only a matter of time before a new lunker is found.
Al.

[Hunting/addict]

I think everything has potential to be beaten but goat, typical whiteys and typical mulies likely stand the best chance. I also plan on taking the next record mulie or at least I dream about it a lot...LOL You cant shoot one sitting at home so I plan to be out as much as time and paycheck allow!

[fourbyfour]

just looking at the big game book records book ( 6th edition) at by some of the dates in all species there is all ways a lucky hunters . just read some storys

[blackbart]

They will all be broken given enough time. Critters have been in B.C. and dieing of old age long before records were kept. Lots of book animals still die every winter. Our job is to keep the opportunity alive so that in one or two hundred years records such as the Chadwick ram or the Schuk Cougar will be listed in the record books, just no longer at #1!

[ThinAir]

Grizz might be hard to break if one day we don't have a season:evil:

[jml11]

I could be wrong here, just going from memory, so dont slay me....
Isnt the #1 grizzly skull a 3 way tie???
Somehow I thought 1 is from alaska, another picked up in bella coola???
Does this sound right to anyone else???

Dana why would the cougar record not be beat???? Is the #1 a freak??


From the latest BC Book (brought it to work today :wink:).

#1 29 2/16 from Rivers Inlet, 1912 unkown hunter...
#2 27 2/16 from Bella Coola, 1970 Pick up
#3 27 2/16 Dean River, 1982 Hunter is named.
#4 27 1/16 Alexis Creek 1970 Hunter is named.
all the rest are under 27"

There are only 5 skulls from the last 10 years that fall within the top 100, with the biggest from 2008, 26 2/16 which ranks tied at #22.

The #1 bear from the B&C website is 27 13/16 and is a pick up from Alaska from 1976. Interesting how the #1 in BC isn't recognized by Boone and Crockett??

The shear size, date of kill and unknown origin does raise some questions in my head as to the validity of #1 in BC. It is a full 2" bigger than the next which is huge on a skull!!

[mark]

From the latest BC Book (brought it to work today :wink:).

#1 29 2/16 from Rivers Inlet, 1912 unkown hunter...
#2 27 2/16 from Bella Coola, 1970 Pick up
#3 27 2/16 Dean River, 1982 Hunter is named.
#4 27 1/16 Alexis Creek 1970 Hunter is named.
all the rest are under 27"

There are only 5 skulls from the last 10 years that fall within the top 100, with the biggest from 2008, 26 2/16 which ranks tied at #22.

The #1 bear from the B&C website is 27 13/16 and is a pick up from Alaska from 1976. Interesting how the #1 in BC isn't recognized by Boone and Crockett??

The shear size, date of kill and unknown origin does raise some questions in my head as to the validity of #1 in BC. It is a full 2" bigger than the next which is huge on a skull!!

Thanks for that info, must have been a 3 way tie for the B & C #1 that I had seen or heard of????
Possibly the #1 for BC simply wasnt entered for B & C???? Who knows??

[BlacktailStalker]

Mark,
Yup, 16 4/16 is pretty much a freak. #1 in the World with only 3 others that I am aware of that break the 16 mark. It is highly unlikely will see a tom killed bigger than Schuk's.

Supposedly there is a 16 3/8" on the ground right now, green.

The world record roosevelt is on a wall north of me. Not entered in the book.

[yama49]

Thanks for that info, must have been a 3 way tie for the B & C #1 that I had seen or heard of????
Possibly the #1 for BC simply wasnt entered for B & C???? Who knows??


Ya mark, the 29 isn 't in the b&c record book...

jason

[greenhorn]

The world record roosevelt is on a wall north of me. Not entered in the book.

Any pictures of the rosie?

[Tenacious Billy]

The world record roosevelt is on a wall north of me. Not entered in the book.

I guess it's not really the world record then is it?

[bighornbob]

The world record roosevelt is on a wall north of me. Not entered in the book.

Cant be a world record without it being in the books.

BHB

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Cant be a world record without it being in the books.

BHB

Sure. Shoot a world record...get it panel scored..and then be too cheap to pay the few bucks to enter it:mrgreen:.

SSS

[Tenacious Billy]

Sure. Shoot a world record...get it panel scored..and then be too cheap to pay the few bucks to enter it:mrgreen:.

SSS

A likely scenario.......:wink:

[proguide66]

Thanks for that info, must have been a 3 way tie for the B & C #1 that I had seen or heard of????
Possibly the #1 for BC simply wasnt entered for B & C???? Who knows??
There is a solid world record grizzly skull in Ganders Taxidermy posession. It still outscores the present world record with its front teeth missing.
years back a hunter either shot it or picked it up and gave it to Gander. If I remember correctly , Ricks dad got in a huff with Boone and Crocket cause they wanted him to ship it to them er something and he never did...so...anyone further curious of it , go see Rick , this isnt a rumor , first hand knowlege!

[proguide66]

That skull was (is?) at Ganders Taxidermy. Very Impressive. Eric Gander (RIP) told me the story of how he ended up with it. A great story to go with a remarkable skull.


oops...didnt read back through the posts....

[proguide66]

I remember the old 'Jordan Buck' was the #1 whitey for yeeears...and no one thought it could be broken!
I think anything is possible myself. I dont think anyone of us can make a bold statement " aint gonna happen" without not seeing first hand EVERY existing animal of that species...they grew em that big once....means they can do it again!
I'm predicting a new provincial btail record in the next 3 years!:mrgreen:

[1/2 slam]

I heard it was the camp-cook,that shot The Chadwick Ram.

No it was his guide. He wounded it and sent his native guide after it. The guide killed it.

[kennyj]

I think the stone sheep record will fall soon.
kenny

[BlacktailStalker]

Cant be a world record without it being in the books.

BHB

Sure can.
May not be "official" but if it scores more than the "official" number one, its the world record.
Believe me or not, doesnt matter, it IS the number one.

[BlacktailStalker]

A likely scenario.......:wink:

Or maybe B&C were such dicks about the fact he wouldnt GIVE it to them for a year and he told them to get phucked therefore it never went in the book.
Its true.

[kennyj]

Sure can.
May not be "official" but if it scores more than the "official" number one, its the world record.
Believe me or not, doesnt matter, it IS the number one.
I would sure love to see that rack some day.
kenny

[Blktail]

My grandpa has almost all of them beat and sitting in his garage. Just needs a blacktail

[Spy]

My grandpa has almost all of them beat and sitting in his garage. Just needs a blacktail

In that case I hope he has a big lock on the door,seen as you have now let the cat out the bag!:wink:Lots of trophy thieves surfing the net for this kind of info!:evil:POS cant trust anyone.

[blindguy]

I know of the elk your talking about blacktail stalker ,it's very true !

pm me the guys name and we'll see if it's the same guy.

[BlacktailStalker]

pm me the guys name and we'll see if it's the same guy.

Sorry not likely.

[swampthing]

I am with BC Billy on the goat. I am too old and fat to do it but they do die of old age out there and old = big.

[Laurence_Erickson]

blacktail was he a logger from around union bay ?? just curious

[mark]

Sure can.
May not be "official" but if it scores more than the "official" number one, its the world record.
Believe me or not, doesnt matter, it IS the number one.


BTS... so even if B & C pissed him off, how come its not in the BC books???

[duk06]

Typical whitetail stand a chance of being broken. I know a guide, different province, who had a client miss what he said was a potential new #1. Sorry can't say where. They are out there if you are dedicated as well as a little lucky.

[dana]

To be an official World Record it needs to be panel scored. Just because someone put the tape on it doesn't mean it's a record breaker. Just look at the example of the Dewdney buck that I mentioned in an earlier post. Entry score had it at 380 and change. Well over the B&C #1 of 355 and change. Went to panel and ended up with a score of 339 2/8, putting it in the #2 position. So while it sounds neat and cool that someone thinks they have the new #1 in their garage, might be actually far from it. B&C doesn't require that you give up an animal for a year, but they do require that your potential record show up for the panel scoring. If you don't, you don't have the World Record. If the hunter thinks that it is too much to ask of them to have it scored by the panel, then they probably already know their animal don't make it. The only other thing is if the hunter has wildlife offenses, B&C will flat out tell them to pound sand. An example of this is Lee's Meat Buck which is owned by the imfamous Kirt Darner. Said to break the #1 World Record Typical Mule Deer by a couple inches. Darner has such a horrible record, they actually turfed all his entries as he was breaking skull plates to make them wider, stealing old racks, trying to enter Jaguar skulls as cougar skulls ect. Why would the B&C touch him and any of his so-called trophies with a ten foot pole ever again? Cheats have proven they don't have a Fair Chase ethic.

[bighornbob]

BTS... so even if B & C pissed him off, how come its not in the BC books???
That's what was thinking. Lots of animals in the BC book that are not in the boone and Crockett just because guys don't care about it as it's in thE states.

Bhb

[urbanhermit]

there has been a couple of e-mails going around with the "pending new world record typical mulie" in the subject line, both are 10" to 20" short of the record. too bad because they are great deer but it's kinda of deflating when you open the picture when you are expecting something more.....

[dana]

That's what was thinking. Lots of animals in the BC book that are not in the boone and Crockett just because guys don't care about it as it's in thE states.

Bhb

Alot of guys like to talk but they can't back up their talk with numbers. Just look at that recent post about who has B&C animals or BC Book animals. Tons of people have them but 'just aren't into that' as the excuss as why they haven't been officially entered. I call BS. They are 'into' bragging about the number on the internet but they aren't 'into' it when it comes to a book of history for hunters in this province? Tons of people don't have a clue on how to measure and they come up with a number that sounds good, but in reality, it won't come close. Most know this, others just are too scared for the let down.

[Jelvis]

If anyone breaks records in hunting it's the young guys or gals that get the biggest deer and moose types. New hunters or younger not so read in books but has the energy to climb and camp or go to some spot and there it is.
Jel ( Ole timers too know it all ) Too lazeeee lol .....................................
all a yah lol

[Tenacious Billy]

Or maybe B&C were such dicks about the fact he wouldnt GIVE it to them for a year and he told them to get phucked therefore it never went in the book.
Its true.

Well, I guess if you say it's true then it must be.......

[BlacktailStalker]

BTS... so even if B & C pissed him off, how come its not in the BC books???

Do you not have to have it scored and entered officially to be in the BC book too?
I'm not getting into details about who/what or why I'm just saying, the man is a VERY qualified hunter and is a very competent and has numerous other entrys of different species, in the book but this one is not, for the reason I stated before.
I didnt believe it either anyways I'm beating a dead horse here so I'm done with it.
I just think its cool how a guy can have something like that and not give a rats ass about being known for it.

Tenacious billy; not sure what you're getting at but if its insinuating I make shit up, I wont lose any sleep over it, I dont.

[Caribou_lou]

I am with BC Billy on the goat. I am too old and fat to do it but they do die of old age out there and old = big.
I am also with BC Billy, Goat will be beaten one day....By me!!! and I won't be thinking about my smarties in basecamp!

[proguide66]

Well, I guess if you say it's true then it must be.......


BTStalker is about as straight to the point no bs guy as your going to get on this site. He says its true my money is on it in high digits.

As far as the book goes , I use the measuring as a way to descride the size of a trophy animal to other people and especially paying hunters....its way easier than to say " well its a real biggy..er its a biggy but not heavy' ect ect....as far as entering stuff in the book , I have become a bit 'jaded' in the past by the numerous people I either have guided or 'used' to hunt with yrs ago that only care about getting 'in the book' and not caring soo much about the hunt or even how they obtained the animal.
SOO many people think it gives them some kind of 'status' by being in 'The Book' or also think it is a contest ...gives it a sour taste.'Life' magazine isnt going to come knocking on your door for an interview in this lifetime for entering a huge animal in a record book and Buswieser isnt going to ask you to pose down with some bud girls for a comercial,hehe.
I love hunting monster anything , getting huge animals of any species gives the ultimate fun past time that much more 'kick' when you pull it off.
You dont have to list your animal parts in a book to prove shit to anyone...only the guys who think this is some kind of competition are going to get snotty about it:mrgreen:( if they dont enter them)

[frenchbar]

BTStalker is about as straight to the point no bs guy as your going to get on this site. He says its true my money is on it in high digits.

As far as the book goes , I use the measuring as a way to descride the size of a trophy animal to other people and especially paying hunters....its way easier than to say " well its a real biggy..er its a biggy but not heavy' ect ect....as far as entering stuff in the book , I have become a bit 'jaded' in the past by the numerous people I either have guided or 'used' to hunt with yrs ago that only care about getting 'in the book' and not caring soo much about the hunt or even how they obtained the animal.
SOO many people think it gives them some kind of 'status' by being in 'The Book' or also think it is a contest ...gives it a sour taste.'Life' magazine isnt going to come knocking on your door for an interview in this lifetime for entering a huge animal in a record book and Buswieser isnt going to ask you to pose down with some bud girls for a comercial,hehe.
I love hunting monster anything , getting huge animals of any species gives the ultimate fun past time that much more 'kick' when you pull it off.
You dont have to list your animal parts in a book to prove shit to anyone...only the guys who think this is some kind of competition are going to get snotty about it:mrgreen:( if they dont enter them)

great post proguide..well said ..i for one could GAS about been in the book ..i could be proud of a lucky feat of killing a record animal and personaly not having the hunting world know about it ...except mabye the hbc gang:wink: Hell just imagine the trophy animals shot in bc each yr that we dont hear about ..we see and hear of a handfull on here and thats it ...lots of hunters could care less about the BOOK .

[ThinAir]

Alot of guys like to talk but they can't back up their talk with numbers. Just look at that recent post about who has B&C animals or BC Book animals. Tons of people have them but 'just aren't into that' as the excuss as why they haven't been officially entered. I call BS. They are 'into' bragging about the number on the internet but they aren't 'into' it when it comes to a book of history for hunters in this province? Tons of people don't have a clue on how to measure and they come up with a number that sounds good, but in reality, it won't come close. Most know this, others just are too scared for the let down.


Exactly Dana....I always love it when guys can't wait to tell you about ALL their BOONER animals they got, bla bla bla....but "I don't care about entering it"

Really?

[Kody94]

If you could enter trophies anonomously (to honor the animal, but stay out of the dick measuring contest), I'd wager that you'd see quite a few more folks doing it.

I was turned off of entering anything by the attitudes of some sheep "hunters" with their names in the book. I doubt I'll ever enter a ram (or anything else) because of it. When I do shoot the new Chadwick ram though, I promise I'll enter it 'cause I wouldn't want to deprive all the other sheep-nuts out there. ;)

As the years go by I am gradually becoming less "put-off" by the "book" though (maybe from being less exposed to the great white hunters that look down on anyone else that doesn't have their name in there, or isn't interested in fighting the crowds at Line Creek to race for rams that cross the line), so maybe I'll come around. I do feel a little guilty boycotting something, but reading the hell out of it at the same time. :mrgreen: Its a moot point right now though, 'cause I'll have to start shooting some stuff that qualifies before my boycott means anything anyway. lol

[luckynuts]

There is a solid world record grizzly skull in Ganders Taxidermy posession. It still outscores the present world record with its front teeth missing.
years back a hunter either shot it or picked it up and gave it to Gander. If I remember correctly , Ricks dad got in a huff with Boone and Crocket cause they wanted him to ship it to them er something and he never did...so...anyone further curious of it , go see Rick , this isnt a rumor , first hand knowlege!

Kind like when Smitty shot the #6 rosie back in the early ninties. It was B&C scored by 3 different scores but B&C wanted him to ship it down to some southern state where they were having the awards that year to be scored by a panel he had to pay his own way down and basically said Fawk it not interested. Not sure if it ever did make it in the book.

W.

[bighornbob]

BTStalker is about as straight to the point no bs guy as your going to get on this site. He says its true my money is on it in high digits.

As far as the book goes , I use the measuring as a way to descride the size of a trophy animal to other people and especially paying hunters....its way easier than to say " well its a real biggy..er its a biggy but not heavy' ect ect....as far as entering stuff in the book , I have become a bit 'jaded' in the past by the numerous people I either have guided or 'used' to hunt with yrs ago that only care about getting 'in the book' and not caring soo much about the hunt or even how they obtained the animal.
SOO many people think it gives them some kind of 'status' by being in 'The Book' or also think it is a contest ...gives it a sour taste.'Life' magazine isnt going to come knocking on your door for an interview in this lifetime for entering a huge animal in a record book and Buswieser isnt going to ask you to pose down with some bud girls for a comercial,hehe.
I love hunting monster anything , getting huge animals of any species gives the ultimate fun past time that much more 'kick' when you pull it off.
You dont have to list your animal parts in a book to prove shit to anyone...only the guys who think this is some kind of competition are going to get snotty about it:mrgreen:( if they dont enter them)

You are correct in one way that for some getting a record book animal is stroking their ego. But in the same instance so is posting a pic or video on this website which most dont seem to have a problem with.

To me there is no difference, post it in the book or post it here you are stroking your ego. In the book it may be to see how many are below you, here it may be to here guys say you are good hunter or to congratulate you, regardless your ego is getting stroked. Same can be said for a moose rack hanging on your barn, you are showing the world or at leats your neighbors that you killed a big moose.

If one did not care about how big of anything they shot or they did not need their ego stroked, you would see no mention of it here or in the book, there would be no photos flying around. The rack may be displayed in their house and only friends would see when they come by and visit the guy.

I guess you could say the book is more ego stroking then posting pics as you have to pay to enter the book and hanging a rack on your barn or posting pics here is free.

The ones who look down on others who are not in the book will be the same ones who do that in everyday life, from their kid being better then yours, their golf game is better then yours or their F350 Dually has more power then your F150.

BHB

[Tenacious Billy]

Tenacious billy; not sure what you're getting at but if its insinuating I make shit up, I wont lose any sleep over it, I dont.

Not insinuating that at all.......I just find it strange that there's a guy you know that has the world's record, doesn't care enough to put it in the book, yet you feel the need to advertise to everyone about it....that's all. :wink:

[TSW]

Cant be a world record without it being in the books.

BHB


Sure can.
May not be "official" but if it scores more than the "official" number one, its the world record.
Believe me or not, doesnt matter, it IS the number one.

In order for something to be a "record" doesn't it technically have to be in the book? Since the record book by definition is a list of the biggest animals RECORDED or ON RECORD? Just sayin' is all...

[Hunt'n Guide]

Once upon a time long long ago there were stories about a world record Roosevelt elk that was said to be well about the present record bull. If I recall correctly the reason that one never made it into the top spot was there was no LEH tag to go with the bull.

[blindguy]

Heard a story almost exactly the same long long ago might have been his second elk on one draw.

[fourbyfour]

well i wasn`t going to post but hear it goes. i`ve been hunting 6 year now( started late in life) and done very well so far .put in lots of time in the wood and have thing on the wall to relive each hunt when i look at them. sometimes the animal need the congratulation. and if a hunter doesn`t want it in the book. that fine. with mine i always say its . ..... RECORDED. never it is the biggest.
LIFE IS TO SHORT JUST GET IN THE WOOD AND ENJOY WHERE YOU ARE AND WITH WHOM YOUR WITH.

[proguide66]

You are correct in one way that for some getting a record book animal is stroking their ego. But in the same instance so is posting a pic or video on this website which most dont seem to have a problem with.

To me there is no difference, post it in the book or post it here you are stroking your ego. In the book it may be to see how many are below you, here it may be to here guys say you are good hunter or to congratulate you, regardless your ego is getting stroked. Same can be said for a moose rack hanging on your barn, you are showing the world or at leats your neighbors that you killed a big moose.

If one did not care about how big of anything they shot or they did not need their ego stroked, you would see no mention of it here or in the book, there would be no photos flying around. The rack may be displayed in their house and only friends would see when they come by and visit the guy.

I guess you could say the book is more ego stroking then posting pics as you have to pay to enter the book and hanging a rack on your barn or posting pics here is free.

The ones who look down on others who are not in the book will be the same ones who do that in everyday life, from their kid being better then yours, their golf game is better then yours or their F350 Dually has more power then your F150.

BHB
I guess each one of us will look at different things and percieve it differently to each other. example , some guys will see pics on here and see it as the pic taker looking to get `stroked` while others will post pics up here as its a great way to share the excitement with many of their freinds who are spread out all over the province and as well share with the TRUE enthusiasts who just cant get enough of it.
Personally , I feel the internet now is actually quite the amazing tool to be able to share all this stuff with fellow enthusiasts and freinds from all over and to be able to recieve back.
Back to how different we each can make of `something;

You ( or some others) may look at a large moose rack on a barn and take it as `` they are showing the world or at least the neighbers that you killed a big moose`....where I or other would see it as , nice bull! bet his wife didnt want it in the house and each time he looks up on the barn he gets to remember that day he shot the monster moose!

I think posting stuff up on the net for all to see in a positive and freindly way to share the enthusiasm and hopefully even knowlege can be kind of tricky in a way to try and keep it recieved as sharing and fun as opposed to competative and ego fueled.
Seeing pics on this web site is awesome! videos a bonus as well reading the stories.A guy can find many many fellow enthusiasts on here to share and recieve with wich would be virtually impossible otherwise.
I dont see the connection with posting stories and pics on here with entering measurements in a record book myself

just my opinion , who am I.....:mrgreen:

[dana]

BHB hit the nail on the head. The excuse for not entering is because the hunter is 'above' all that and doesn't need his ego stroked and yet, they get on a internet site and tell people that they have x amount of book animals and what they score. Really where is the difference? The funny thing is it costs nothing to get an animal officially scored. It only costs something to enter it. At the very least back up your internet bragging with an official score sheet. :mrgreen:
The funny thing is I've seen it many times on here where guys will accuse me of stroking my ego yet don't those same people post pics of their own. Why are their pics 'non-ego' yet my pic are 'all-ego'? For those who really know me, they know I ain't about numbers and ego but rather am about hunting hard and having a good time doing it with family and friends. I also value highly what we have here in this province. The BC Record Book is a history record of the tremendous hunting we have here. It ain't about ego getting your name in it, it is about showing future generations the quality of animals we've got. If you aren't entering the BC Book because of some yanky ego thing, you are truly missing the point of what the BC Book is all about.

As for the rumour of the Rosey, I think some of the last threads are probably pretty close. If you can't come up with photos and documentation on your animal, why would the B&C trust you and list your animal.

[fourbyfour]

" The BC Record Book is a history record of the tremendous hunting we have here. It ain't about ego getting your name in it, it is about showing future generations the quality of animals we've got. If you aren't entering the BC Book because of some yanky ego thing, you are truly missing the point of what the BC Book is all about." """" thx to dana for saying it""""""


i looked a the BC book years ago and started to hunt farther away from roads to look at what BC has to offer us and we are soooooooooo lucky to live here, and the freedoms we all share.

[proguide66]

Dana ( happy nw yr to you)


Just a few more freindly words to think about -- do you not think that there is a large handfull of people who just dont care about the record books?? it IS possible for people to shoot large animals and not really be concerned of the 'Books' but be enthusiastic to share the pics and stories with freinds on a hunting web site.
Here's an example , last fall I video taped,photograghed a huge moose.I figured he was possibly over 200 inches of bone on his bean.Turned out I was able to shoot him myself and then to boot , post up the pics and video to share with fellow enthusiasts on here and it was a cool treat!
Later in the fall , our neighberhood club had its anual horn contest ( so low key we dont even have trophies anymore , just freindly competition)..BUT , happens a freind AND official scorer 'Rick Gander' does the measuring. Turns out my bull easily makes the B&C minimum.
I was asked if I wanted it listed , but seriously , it just doesnt matter to me. Rick even offered to one day sit down and measure all my stuff at home for entry into 'The Book'....I thought about it only because of what you stated as being a "record of our history" , but it just comes to mind and slips away cause it just doesnt matter to me.

One thing sadly that I have seen more times than not is the first thing a guy does is go for a tape measure upon walking up to his animal without even cracking a smile yet.
I'm not saying everyone is about that or the book is about that...but it obviously has had a negative impact on me..sadly...
I think the pics on here are awesome and the contributors please keep doin it...but I dont think there is an 'excuse' for not entering an animal...some guys just honestly dont care about that part.:-D

[BlacktailStalker]

Its evident many cant read, I posted the reason.
Think you know, say you know, add to it, tweak it, twist it as you will, thats your story, embellish it, spread it, do whatever :lol:
Clearly, some can't handle it.

[dana]

proguide,
I know many people that don't enter their animals and have never had a tape on them. I understand that. I have actually encouraged Ol'Timers to take their racks in and get them into the BC Book for history's sake. I actually took a big typical into Rick Berreth on time and got it scored for an ol' Timer. The rack was actually hanging on a rafter in his woodshed. It turned out to score gross in the 180's and net 174 7/8. Missed BC Book by 1/8 of an inch. Rick said he rarely has had a buck score that close and miss and was a little sad for the guy. I told him not to worry as the ol'Timer was just going to put it back in his woodshed. If it had of made it, I was willing to pay the entry fee myself just so his grandchildren would have some documentation of the big buck grandpa shot. That is where I'm coming from. One day those racks might be lost, and the history with them will be lost too.

[dana]

Its evident many cant read, I posted the reason.
Think you know, say you know, add to it, tweak it, twist it as you will, thats your story, embellish it, spread it, do whatever :lol:
Clearly, some can't handle it.

BlacktailStalker,
Sorry dude, nope I don't buy it. This is the internet and just because you know the guy I'm going to blindly believe it to be the truth. You may have been given a reason, but that is only one side of the story. And nope, the B&C doesn't require having a rack for a year, but if the story doesn't have documentation, they will require you have your ducks in a row. Too many frauds out there that have tried it all in the past. If the guy is legit he wouldn't get his panties in a knot over them asking for documentation. Perhaps the B&C did want to see the rack. Why wouldn't they? Roseys are smaller than Rockys. When you have potential new number one with no documentation, they might have required a DNA test. They did that for the #1 black bear. It was a pick up in Utah of all places. The B&C actually doubted it was a black bear and tested to make sure it was indeed a black bear and not a grizz. There have been other so-called records over the years that have indeed been frauds. Like I mentioned earlier, Kirt Darner tried to enter a Jagaur skull as the #1 cougar skull. There are always are 2 sides to every story and it sounds like you've just accepted this guy's story as gospel and the B&C are just some yanky pricks. Ever think there is more too it?

[proguide66]

True enough . used to go to'Smith' alberta every year with my old guide partner after we were done and chase whitetails.His parents live ther and are true people of the soil. I met and went to many peoples homes in that small comunity and could believe what I saw. Literally almost evry little homestead had a 180's to 190's buck in the shed,couldnt believe it..and most will never be know of , just imagine whats out there and never to be seen or measured.
Posting trophy's on the internet can be a delicate thing due to how some purseeve ( spelling).it and recieve it.
I have had more than a few invites to post my 'trophy room' on here but havent due to it being difficult to do without looking like wanting to win some kind of 'contest' or looking like the need to be 'stroked' wich I am not....but I really do get extremely excited to see peoples shit on here and to share my own excitement of the chase and harvest!
As I said before , 'its all FUN , nothing else,FUN FUN FUN' !!!!:mrgreen:

Who knows , maybe one day when Rick comes over I might get talked into a measuring day and enter them...but I honestly dont really think about it much.

[BlacktailStalker]

BlacktailStalker,
Sorry dude, nope I don't buy it. This is the internet and just because you know the guy I'm going to blindly believe it to be the truth. You may have been given a reason, but that is only one side of the story. And nope, the B&C doesn't require having a rack for a year, but if the story doesn't have documentation, they will require you have your ducks in a row. Too many frauds out there that have tried it all in the past. If the guy is legit he wouldn't get his panties in a knot over them asking for documentation. Perhaps the B&C did want to see the rack. Why wouldn't they? Roseys are smaller than Rockys. When you have potential new number one with no documentation, they might have required a DNA test. They did that for the #1 black bear. It was a pick up in Utah of all places. The B&C actually doubted it was a black bear and tested to make sure it was indeed a black bear and not a grizz. There have been other so-called records over the years that have indeed been frauds. Like I mentioned earlier, Kirt Darner tried to enter a Jagaur skull as the #1 cougar skull. There are always are 2 sides to every story and it sounds like you've just accepted this guy's story as gospel and the B&C are just some yanky pricks. Ever think there is more too it?


Documentation, ducks in a row etc etc, where did this come from ?
None of that was/is an issue and there is no mention of it in my earlier posts.

THEY WANTED IT, no compensation or w/e, for a year for whatever the reasons were at the time (nowhere did I say this was recent either, things have changed) and he said simply said no I dont think so, they made a fuss and he said nope, forget it.
I fully hear you and trust me, I'm one who believes less than half of what I hear and all of what I see.
I don't care if you do or not, but dont overlook that there isn't always more to a story.

[dana]

Blacktailstalker,
All I know is when there is talk of a new world record, the B&C guys get rather excited, regardless of the species. Do you really think they would have just ignored it after he said 'sorry you can't have it for a year'? If it really is a world record, they would have been flippin backwards to get it in there. They just don't say, "oh well, maybe the next world record owner will let us have it for a year." See where I am going with this. Just ain't that believable now is it?

[BlacktailStalker]

Yes ok, not believable to you and many others.
So be it.
The end.

[Hunt'n Guide]

Was I one of the ones that you imply cannot read?
What I posted was an observation that there may be other racks hidden away bigger than your buddy has that haven't been scored officially for different reasons.
I'm not a fan of record books, never really have been inclined to enter anything. For me scores are just a way of comparing different things, not in any way a fair judgment on the value of any man's trophy animal.

[BlacktailStalker]

Huntn guide; no not at all you didnt add potential issues in the reason the rack isnt entered, after I explain why.
I fully agree if we could all see "whats out there" we'd be glued to this computer for a long time !
The only reason I know scores are for the same reason, to comprehend the class or maturity (depends on the species) of an animal and to get a " mental visual" on something without seeing it (to an extent)

[bighornbob]

True enough . used to go to'Smith' alberta every year with my old guide partner after we were done and chase whitetails.His parents live ther and are true people of the soil. I met and went to many peoples homes in that small comunity and could believe what I saw. Literally almost evry little homestead had a 180's to 190's buck in the shed,couldnt believe it..and most will never be know of , just imagine whats out there and never to be seen or measured.
Posting trophy's on the internet can be a delicate thing due to how some purseeve ( spelling).it and recieve it.
I have had more than a few invites to post my 'trophy room' on here but havent due to it being difficult to do without looking like wanting to win some kind of 'contest' or looking like the need to be 'stroked' wich I am not....but I really do get extremely excited to see peoples shit on here and to share my own excitement of the chase and harvest!
As I said before , 'its all FUN , nothing else,FUN FUN FUN' !!!!:mrgreen:

Who knows , maybe one day when Rick comes over I might get talked into a measuring day and enter them...but I honestly dont really think about it much.

I know what you are talking about and your Alberta story reminds me of one my dad told me. He had just taken a large bighorn on a November LEH in the Kootenays (mid 90's) and him and my uncle had a father and son help them load the animal whole into the truck (tough hunt:-D). My dad and uncle are both the type that would keep the sheep under wraps but when they got to the bottom of the hill there were about 4-5 trucks blocking the road and wanting to see the ram (father and son made it down first and told a bunch of Mule deer hunters about the sheep).

Well they were showing off the sheep when some old guy comes walking out of the woods dragging what my dad said was the biggest mulie he had ever seen. Everyone shifted their attention away from the sheep and to the deer, everyone had their jaws on the ground. My dad said this guy had basically split the deer in half from its chin to its tail so it would drag easier. When someone commented on why he split it like that as it would be almost impossible for the taxidermist to mount it the old guy calmly said "mount it?, I have a shed full of antlers like this one". Then he calmly closed the tailgate of his truck and drove off. Everyones jaws were still on the ground. I think about that guys shed all the time:mrgreen:

Based on how my dad said the guy acted I doubt if he ever put a tape on them. There are many guys like him and thats fine.

I guess the part that gets me is all the guys that have put a tape measure to their animals then say the book strokes egos. By putting a tape to an animal you are technically seeing who's d**k is bigger, you are either comparing it to the minimum score or to someone elses. You are seeing how it relates to others (mine is biggre then theirs). Thats all a tape does, nothing more nothing less. A tape measure does not bring back the memory of you have your child or father along when you took that animal. The tape does not tell you about the great adventure you had when you got.

I also see your point about guys that bring out the tape measure first and its sad. I was at a local scorers house and he had a 169 typical east Koot whitetail rack on the wall. I asked if it was his and he said it was his dads ( his dad used to be a scorer) but it came from a guy who shot it before there was a BC book. He wanted to get it scored for the Boone and Crockett book and when he found out it did not make it he left it at the scorers house. Obviously all this hunter cared for was the score and its a shame. But like you said there are guys like that.

BHB

[SURGE]

i'm not sure how all the scoring works,but i do know of a rosie that was shot with archery tackle on van island this year.it has a third main beam and green scored around 398. if scored with the b&c method it goes somewhere around 360,but it is being scored with the sci which goes on gross score (i think). i could be totally wrong about this so i appologize in advance but under the sci it will beat the old record by 30 or 40 points.all records are meant to be broken and everyday i am out hunting i always beleive that i am going to shoot the biggest buck ever,hasn't happened yet but that's what keeps me going strong.

[fourbyfour]

i'm not sure how all the scoring works,but i do know of a rosie that was shot with archery tackle on van island this year.it has a third main beam and green scored around 398. if scored with the b&c method it goes somewhere around 360,but it is being scored with the sci which goes on gross score (i think). i could be totally wrong about this so i appologize in advance but under the sci it will beat the old record by 30 or 40 points.all records are meant to be broken and everyday i am out hunting i always beleive that i am going to shoot the biggest buck ever,hasn't happened yet but that's what keeps me going strong.

any pic out there of this???? . SCI is just one way to score, just how many inchs
P&Y and B&C both go with it beening the same on both side

it doesn`t matter now ,it should be about the hunt and the animal

[SURGE]

any pic out there of this???? . SCI is just one way to score, just how many inchs
P&Y and B&C both go with it beening the same on both side

it doesn`t matter now ,it should be about the hunt and the animal
i wish i did have some photos, but i do know one of the guys that was on the hunt with his friend who got the bull. also i know the taxadermist who it was taken too and they both said the same thing as far as score. i know telling a story without photos sucks i'll see if i can get one!!!!!

[358mag]

I think the stone sheep record will fall soon.
kenny
Go with your drugs dont fight them !!!!:-D
winning Lotto Max is better odds that shooting a new #1 Stone's Sheep

[Seeadler]

I know where there is an animal that qualifies for the B&C record book (top 100 if memory serves) and another that qualifies for an award.

Not everyone cares about such things.

[ishootbambi]

i can see both sides of this. to start, i am an official scorer for the AFGA so i know how the system works. numbers to me are just that. ill share pics and stories of my adventures, but for me, any record book is not a priority. not because i dont care about scores and certainly not because i have anything to hide. ill share my stuff with guys who want to see because i want to see theirs too. thats why i love magazines like big buck and hunting illustrated.....just regular guys sharing pics and stories of awesome critters and the adventures of getting them. i live for that stuff. i bet its the number one reason why hunters become members of sites like this. ive flipped through a few record books.....B&C, AFGA, P&Y....they are mostly just a list. just a name and a number with almost no pics and rarely a story. thats why im not listed in any record book.....and i qualify for 7 different books. one day my son will take ownership of my heads, and he has already said that he will enter them as a tribute to his dad. ok, when they are his he can do what he wants. i dont look down my nose at those who are listed and do care. there is nothing at all wrong with it, but its a personal choice. whichever way a guy feels, its not wrong.....your trophy, your choice. id never argue with a guy about his own personal feelings on it.

dale

[leadpillproductions]

I personally think for me if i get one to go in the book , looking thru the book and seeing my name in there sure would be cool . One day ill get a booner or two

[Stone Sheep Steve]

i can see both sides of this. to start, i am an official scorer for the AFGA so i know how the system works. numbers to me are just that. ill share pics and stories of my adventures, but for me, any record book is not a priority. not because i dont care about scores and certainly not because i have anything to hide. ill share my stuff with guys who want to see because i want to see theirs too. thats why i love magazines like big buck and hunting illustrated.....just regular guys sharing pics and stories of awesome critters and the adventures of getting them. i live for that stuff. i bet its the number one reason why hunters become members of sites like this. ive flipped through a few record books.....B&C, AFGA, P&Y....they are mostly just a list. just a name and a number with almost no pics and rarely a story. thats why im not listed in any record book.....and i qualify for 7 different books. one day my son will take ownership of my heads, and he has already said that he will enter them as a tribute to his dad. ok, when they are his he can do what he wants. i dont look down my nose at those who are listed and do care. there is nothing at all wrong with it, but its a personal choice. whichever way a guy feels, its not wrong.....your trophy, your choice. id never argue with a guy about his own personal feelings on it.

dale

Well said!!

SSS

[Gateholio]

i can see both sides of this. to start, i am an official scorer for the AFGA so i know how the system works. numbers to me are just that. ill share pics and stories of my adventures, but for me, any record book is not a priority. not because i dont care about scores and certainly not because i have anything to hide. ill share my stuff with guys who want to see because i want to see theirs too. thats why i love magazines like big buck and hunting illustrated.....just regular guys sharing pics and stories of awesome critters and the adventures of getting them. i live for that stuff. i bet its the number one reason why hunters become members of sites like this. ive flipped through a few record books.....B&C, AFGA, P&Y....they are mostly just a list. just a name and a number with almost no pics and rarely a story. thats why im not listed in any record book.....and i qualify for 7 different books. one day my son will take ownership of my heads, and he has already said that he will enter them as a tribute to his dad. ok, when they are his he can do what he wants. i dont look down my nose at those who are listed and do care. there is nothing at all wrong with it, but its a personal choice. whichever way a guy feels, its not wrong.....your trophy, your choice. id never argue with a guy about his own personal feelings on it.

dale

I agree with this. The difference between posting it on this site is that it's like you are sharing your pictures and story with a bunch of buddies and having a beer. As you say, the record book is just a collection of numbers.

It probably only has historical significance when it's in the top 50 or so. Nothing wrong with entering a minimal score animal into the book, though, if that makes you happy or entertains you.:-D

[BCbillies]

I am sure most prefer a good story, the meat and the memories over the numbers but the book info doesn't hurt for R&D purposes! :-D The more some guys get into hunting the more they take to the numbers in many aspects . . . like bullet velocity, group size, training regiment, weight of pack, shot distance, retrieval distance, distance hiked, weight loss on bullet/belly, body size of animal, age, horn size, score, etc. Numbers can really add to the bs sessions around the campfire . . . especially when the numbers aren't in the book and they can be made up! :wink: Some guys are just number geeks . . . taken to extremes it can get old quick and take away from the hunt when a guy walks up to an animal and is all disappointed that is doesn't quite make the book. It also doesn't hurt to have goals of harvesting big old mature animals and to come home with only memories and photos of live animals. It about balance like most everything in life.

I know some very humble hunters that have entered their scores in the book and it has nothing to do with stroking themselves . . . it is likely about adding to the memory of the hunt, respect for the trophy, passing a legacy onto the next generation, etc. Don't really know . . . each to their own.

[dana]

On the flip side, with the amount of people online nowadays, many hunters are actually going underground with their pics and trophies and yet they still enter. 7 year between books, no pressure from guys jumping gold claims. Just a name and a score in print. No pics to get the masses all looking where you hunt.

[hellojello74]

One thing that I think has an effect on record books is the amount of hunting pressure, yes there are lots of open spaces, but at the same time a large portion of the north country is entirely covered by Outfitters, now they don't know every animal in their areas but they know their areas very well.... makes finding some good pockets harder as im sure that you would be hard pressed to find any place in bc that has zero hunting pressure (depending on the speices)
just my 2 cents, does not mean records will be broken, just makes some tougher as some animals dont get to their ripe old age :)

[Ourea]

I am sure most prefer a good story, the meat and the memories over the numbers but the book info doesn't hurt for R&D purposes! :-D The more some guys get into hunting the more they take to the numbers in many aspects . . . like bullet velocity, group size, training regiment, weight of pack, shot distance, retrieval distance, distance hiked, weight loss on bullet/belly, body size of animal, age, horn size, score, etc. Numbers can really add to the bs sessions around the campfire . . . especially when the numbers aren't in the book and they can be made up! :wink: Some guys are just number geeks . . . taken to extremes it can get old quick and take away from the hunt when a guy walks up to an animal and is all disappointed that is doesn't quite make the book. It also doesn't hurt to have goals of harvesting big old mature animals and to come home with only memories and photos of live animals. It about balance like most everything in life.

I know some very humble hunters that have entered their scores in the book and it has nothing to do with stroking themselves . . . it is likely about adding to the memory of the hunt, respect for the trophy, passing a legacy onto the next generation, etc. Don't really know . . . each to their own.


I like your style BCbillies and the humble attitude that goes with it! Well said.......

[WKCotts]

Bump for a good old thread

[kennyj]

Go with your drugs dont fight them !!!!:-D
winning Lotto Max is better odds that shooting a new #1 Stone's Sheep


The California Bighorn record was recently smashed. Taken in an open full curl area. That was a bit of a surprise.
I can't believe that a lot of people don't think its possible for a 14 year old Stone sheep Ram with good genetics to be walking around out there right now with all the area that stone sheep roam in this province.
kenny

[proguide66]

The new #1 blacktail has been discovered......just not dead - YET. lol..predicting a new #1 by Nov 20 ,2013 by arrow:-D , on video to !

[kennyj]

The new #1 blacktail has been discovered......just not dead - YET. lol..predicting a new #1 by Nov 20 ,2013 by arrow:-D , on video to !
I love your optimism! Did you find his antler? Go get him Steve!
kenny