Broken Arrows?!

[allan]

I've broken (grenaded) 4 arrows in the over the last 12 months on release, two of them in in the last two days.
They always break, into 3 parts, at the start and the end of the fletching, and sometimes the nock comes out and goes flying. I've checked each arrow before flight, i've never missed the target with them and never shoot at the same spot twice to ensure that I don't damage the arrow. I even bought new arrows after the second time thinking that there was a problem.
Everytime the string blows off on the top wheel to the right, i'm not sure what i'm doing wrong. I double check the nock, and every arrow before I shoot. My only guess is that could the cams could be out of wack enough do do this?
Please advise.
2009 PSE Stinger
30" draw, 60lb
Radial X weave 300 Arrows,

[Bowzone_Mikey]

show me a picture of where they are breaking ... from what i read they are breaking at the fletching ... Makes me suspect acidic glue weakening the carbon ...

but I might be reading it wrong

A picture says 1000 words

[brad ferris]

Well first off quit shooting the bow and have a pro give it a good going over or do you want to keep going till you drive a busted carbon shaft through your arm. Sounds like you still have 8 more tries.
My next thought is each time that happened it could have the similar affect as a dry fire. Again take it in and get it checked.
300 spine may be a little stiff for a 60 pound bow but I wouldn't think this is the cause of your problem. I appreciate you wanting to figure this out on your own but there are. some very serious dangers to you and anyone standing near you when this happens. So in case you missed it the first few times. Take it in to a pro. Good luck and let us know.

[Jonas111]

That's pretty scary. I've seen it happen to a friend of mine before and it scared both of us. If you have seen or heard of someone getting an arrow through there hand you would never shoot another one of those arrows. It is a slow and painful recovery.

Who fletched your arrows? Like bowzone said maybe the glue is breaking down the carbon. Now it sounds like your bow may have gotten damaged from the dry fire. My friends bow had the Bottom cam flatten out the grooves so it will never properly hold the string again. Check your grooves on your cams.

Take it to a pro shop and have them look it over. I wouldn't be embarrassed about it because my safety means more to me then my ego.

[allan]

I have taken it to a shop, and had the pro look at it. He tells me its a bad arrow? ( not possible this many times) these are new arrows two different batches. I will be taking it back to the shop and asking them to keep it for me till they figure this out bc I am very concerned about this. yes i know its dangerous. I doubt thats its the glue as they came from factory and I havent modified the fletchings ect.
Check out how they break, almost allways a straight break. I think as they hit the wisker biscuit, or sight ring they snap. I suspect that the cams or limbs may be off enough thet occasionally the string might jump off, allways on the top right. but I don't know how to measure or judge specifically.

[Bow Walker]

show me a picture of where they are breaking ... from what i read they are breaking at the fletching ... Makes me suspect acidic glue weakening the carbon ...

but I might be reading it wrong

A picture says 1000 words
My first thought as well. If the arrows are breaking just around the fletching it is most likely the type of glue being used. Is the place where you bought the arrows doing the fletching? Are you doing your own fletching?

Let us know.

And YES, stop shooting until the problem is fixed. Unless you particularly want an injury...

[Bow Walker]

Where are you? What shop are you using?

[allan]

lets try the pic again

[allan]

I'm in Chilliwack, using Chilliwack Dart and Tackle.

[Bow Walker]

Try going to Big Game Archery(?) Sorry if I got the name wrong. He's in Abbotsford and really knows his stuff. I think his name is Wayne(?) (the memory is the 2nd thing to go...)

Well worth the short drive to get the problem solved/fixed.

By the look of the broken arrow shaft - it sure looks like a glue problem.

[Vader]

Doesn't look like factory fletch job. In the pic I see where the Carbon has been gouged out so as to expose the nock. One would assume that if it were acidic glue then there would be a linear fracture on the shaft along the fletch. Are you getting contact on the bow somewhere? Looks more like an impact break.

[Bow Walker]

Could also be something as simple as the arrow nock not being seated on the string properly, causing a hellova whack ont he nock when he releases.(?)

Could also be a problem with spine. But I suspect that the glue is weakening the shaft and causing it to fail.

Allan - how many shots per arrow before they brake? Might be important. If the camis "throwing" the string, you'd think that it would do it every shot. I suspect the arrow failure is causing the string to jump the groove, not the other way around.

Best advice I can think of right now is to get over to Big game and get the bow and the arrows checked out thoroughly.

[Stéphane]

Try going to Big Game Archery(?) Sorry if I got the name wrong. He's in Abbotsford and really knows his stuff. I think his name is Wayne(?) (the memory is the 2nd thing to go...)

Well worth the short drive to get the problem solved/fixed.

By the look of the broken arrow shaft - it sure looks like a glue problem.
That's right. Wayne it is. (604) 859-2086

[Bow Walker]

Allan - there you go! Phone Wayne and make an appointment to go see him. Take your bow and all the arrows - both broken and whole for him to inspect. You won't regret it.

[Bow Walker]

A quick look at the spine chart for x-weave arrows shows that you may be using shafts that are a bit too weak.

Try using some 200 spine shafts - they're a bit stronger and will stand up to more 'abuse'.

[allan]

Thanks for the advice, I will try and contact Wayne this week. Where did you get the spine chart from? I thought for the radial x weave the higher the number the stiffer the spine?

[Slugman]

With out checking the spine chart I do believe PSE decided to make a change from the norm and the numbers you would typically relate to spine in their case does not. In other words the higer the number the stiffer the spine. Also contact aside you may want to consider the tip weight you are shooting. If the shop gives it the ok and you dont have the cash for new arrows bump the weight of your tip down. If it is not a tuning issue with the bow causing some sort of rest contact then I would strongly suspect you are severley under spined. If that is the case according to PSE arrow numbering method you would be going from a 300 to a 400 with the X-Weave arrows.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Looking at the Pic .. I would tend to lean toward a combination of weak spine, nock not seated or wrong size of nock and glue...

how were the shafts cleaned before gluing? Acetone or some other product???

[Ruger4]

sorry, did I miss what brand of arrow ?

[brad ferris]

sorry, did I miss what brand of arrow ?

Radial X weave 300. Not sure who actually makes them but apparently they number their spine stiffness backwards to the rest of the world. Another good reason to deal with a pro archery shop.
I'm very interested to hear the outcome. In my first post I wanted to ask if you were shooting a biscuit. How much arrow do you have sticking out in front when at full draw?

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Radial X weave 300. Not sure who actually makes them but apparently they number their spine stiffness backwards to the rest of the world. Another good reason to deal with a pro archery shop.
I'm very interested to hear the outcome. In my first post I wanted to ask if you were shooting a biscuit. How much arrow do you have sticking out in front when at full draw?

They are a PSE product

[Matty_ola]

A quick look at the spine chart for x-weave arrows shows that you may be using shafts that are a bit too weak.

Try using some 200 spine shafts - they're a bit stronger and will stand up to more 'abuse'.


I'm in no way a bow professional but Am I missing something??? How do you get the 200 is stiffer than the 300???http://store.fastcommerce.com/thebowhuntersadvantage/arrows-ff80808117344aab011748bff2f55ca7-c.html

If anything they are over-stiff not under and in which case would not cause them to break under the stress of the bow string.

I'm running an X-Force GX with the same arrows set at 65lb draw with a total arrow weight of 390 Grains and I've never seen that problem.

I'm going to say the fletch job is the culprit, Or what ever chemical you used to clean them up before the fletch job took place.

[greybark]

:-D Shooting fingers or release ???? Arrow alignment with rest and type of rest ?
Cheers

[Bowzone_Mikey]

I'm in no way a bow professional but Am I missing something??? How do you get the 200 is stiffer than the 300???http://store.fastcommerce.com/thebowhuntersadvantage/arrows-ff80808117344aab011748bff2f55ca7-c.html

If anything they are over-stiff not under and in which case would not cause them to break under the stress of the bow string.

I'm running an X-Force GX with the same arrows set at 65lb draw with a total arrow weight of 390 Grains and I've never seen that problem.

I'm going to say the fletch job is the culprit, Or what ever chemical you used to clean them up before the fletch job took place.

Horny bows like the Xforce products, Bowtechs Airbornes destroyers, Hoyts Turbos etc... ... with agresive Cams usually prefer a slightly stiffer spine than whats typically called for by manufacturers charts in my experiance

[allan]

To Sum up all the questions so far,
-Shooting a release Aid, \
- Aprox 3.25" of arrow not counting the field point past the leading of my wisker biscuit at full draw
-I bought these arrows from factory glued, all the shop did was cut them to length and put in inserts.
- 100 gram field points
-There has been no extra use of Glue, acetetone cleaner
I think that the limbs may be out of square slightly, but can't tell on my own. I hope that I'll be able to bring it to someone who knows thier stuff to try and figure this out.
Please if you have any other ideas let me know. Its great having someone (anyone) with more exp. then me to brainstorm.
Thanks

[Matty_ola]

Let's have a photo of your setup.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

I almost wonder if your rest is way out of center shot .... a full containment rest like the WB when out of center will create alot of side force on the arrow and the bow string

[Matty_ola]

I almost wonder if your rest is way out of center shot .... a full containment rest like the WB when out of center will create alot of side force on the arrow and the bow string

Kinda What I'm thinking as well being as the arrows are stock, Maybe go over the bow and ensure everything is set up the correct way.

Here's a link to help ya out

http://www.eastonarchery.com/pdf/tuning_guide.pdf

[Stéphane]

Allan,

Wayne is going away until February the 22nd. I mentioned to him your problem. He said that on Wednesday, there will be someone there to help you. I'll pm you the hour of operation.

SG

[Vader]

I agree with the WB alignment. Get it slightly out of center shot and add some bow torque and you have a lot of force going down the shaft. This would not be evident on every shot as you don't torque every shot. Best to start with the bow and rest.
Even with an agressive cam at 60 lbs and 100 grain field point the shaft is adequately spined for his setup. A .359 spine for the 300 would not be dangerously light spined. Look for wear on the WB or even contact on the WB ring.
Loose knocks usually split the end of the shaft in a linear crack. Least on the carbons I have been using.. Gold tips ad Carbon express.

[Bow Walker]

I'm in no way a bow professional but Am I missing something??? How do you get the 200 is stiffer than the 300???http://store.fastcommerce.com/thebowhuntersadvantage/arrows-ff80808117344aab011748bff2f55ca7-c.html

If anything they are over-stiff not under and in which case would not cause them to break under the stress of the bow string.

I'm running an X-Force GX with the same arrows set at 65lb draw with a total arrow weight of 390 Grains and I've never seen that problem.

I'm going to say the fletch job is the culprit, Or what ever chemical you used to clean them up before the fletch job took place.
99% of arrow manufacturers list the spine numbers that reflect deflection, based on a weight suspended from the center of the shaft. The numbers usually (99% of the time) reflect the value in inches of delfection. Foe example the number 300 woud mean a deflection of .300 of an inch.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Arrow_Spine_Measurement1.jpg

If PSE does list their numbers back-ass-wards, then it's just a matter of going with a stiffer spine.


Here is PSE's 2010 spine chart...

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/2010_PSE_Arrow_Selection_Chart.jpg

[Ike]

Everytime the string blows off on the top wheel to the right, i'm not sure what i'm doing wrong. My only guess is that could the cams could be out of wack enough do do this?

just my uneducated input, but the fact that your bow is derailing seems more of a concern to me and maybe the cause of your arrows breaking rather than the other way around. Looking at the pics your arrow has been shattered and the gouge at the nock looks like an abrasion (from te pic anyway) rather than a chemical melt. Maybe your bow is derailing first and then causing the arrow to break when it hits your rest or riser?
Check for a bad cam, excessive cam lean or even extreme torquing that could cause the derailing....

Good luck at sorting it out.

[Ambush]

just my uneducated input, but the fact that your bow is derailing seems more of a concern to me and maybe the cause of your arrows breaking rather than the other way around. Looking at the pics your arrow has been shattered and the gouge at the nock looks like an abrasion (from te pic anyway) rather than a chemical melt. Maybe your bow is derailing first and then causing the arrow to break when it hits your rest or riser?

Check for a bad cam, excessive cam lean or even extreme torquing that could cause the derailing..

I would say the same.
Your broken arrows are a result not a cause. Check cam lean first.

[willyqbc]

Ike and Ambush have it right....its not the arrows, its the bow. Most likely thing is as ambush said, you have cam lean that is causing the string to derail at the shot. When this happens it will throw the arrow all over the place. Being trapped in a containment rest the arrow is being thrown against the outer edge of the rest somewhere causing it to break.

Try this.....draw the bow back and anchor as though you are going to shoot. Then look up to your top cam.....does the string line up directly behind the groove in your cam or is it angled off to one side. Could also be some heavy torque on your part as well, while at full draw have someone take a look at your stabilizer....is it pointing straight at the target or is it pointing off to the side. Another good indicator of torque is put an arrow on the bow (don't draw it). Line up your eye so that the string runs right down the center of the arrow....now check your pins....are they right tight to the string or are they way outside/inside of the string.

Hope this helps
Chris

[Bow Walker]

Nice to have you 'back' and posting again Chris. You've been absent for a while.

Great insight and great tips.

[willyqbc]

yeah...seems like if i'm not working, I'm runnin the snowblower lately!!! Hopefully it will stop snowin here for a while so i can catch up on HBC!!!!

Chris