Crossbows , Talkin or Walkin

[greybark]

:-D I recognize the legality of hunting with a Crossbow . I have shot in ONE 3-d with a crossbower and had a friend hunt out of my camp with a crossbow .
:icon_frow What surprises me is for the past 25 years I have seen only seen Two others participate at a 3-d event .
:icon_frow Recently the Crossbow Talk on this forum has increased and 99% is to complain . Where is the Walkin that goes with Talkin .
Dedication involves practice and participation and lack of attendence of 3-d and conservation events seem to promote negativity towards Crossbowers . Crossbowers must stand up and step forward to be counted , respected and not complaining from the sidelines .
:-D This post was stimulated by OObuck`s last positive post (couple of new bowhunters) and serious discussion is requested .
Cheers

[troutseeker]

Huh, some people just want an accurate tool to hunt with without having to practice all the time. I don't shoot 3d and never will. I doubt that I am the only one either...

Seems like the ones complaining are other archers, some are snobs and feel that crossbows are "not worthy" of being called archery, whatever...

I shoot both bow (for over 35 years) and crossbow, but I don't feel I need to belong to some fraternity to enjoy myself. When I go practice with my bow or crossbow I don't want to have to engage in conversation with every good old boy shooting that day. I don't care what they shoot, don't want their advice and really don't care what they think of me and my shooting style and equipment. I guess that makes me the rude one who won't engage in time wasting conversation (this goes for when I shoot my rifles too). However, I feel they are rude by interrupting me and trying to share their "knowledge"...

As you can imagine, I do not belong to any organized "groups", and that is just fine by me. :-D

Cheers!

[Mr. Dean]

Looky at all the firearms holders in the province and then looky at the number of all whom participate in organized shooting sports. It's a tiny percentage, too.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Not all crossbowers are the same. But the only 2 I know that live here pull out the bow during late bow season, take a couple shots and a way they go. Both shot bucks from the road, both had no idea how far the deer was. One guy paced it of after and said he was not to far off as he guessed 50 yards and it was about 44 yards. I guess that would explain the excellent marksmenship with a high hit above the ponch just below the spine that happened cut an artery.:roll:

Another time I was in Langley at a shooting store (that is no longer there) and some loud mouth hunter walks in demanding a crossbow for his elk hunt on Thursday(it was tuesday) He was saying how his whole crew had picked up cross bows for this hunt hoping to poke a few holes before the rifle season began.

With my limited experiance with people owning crossbows, I have a problem with crossbows included in the archery seasons. An archer tends to practice hard, to achieve his goals, the crossbow owners I have met only care about poking holes.

I am sure there are lots that practice hard I just haven't met them.:icon_frow

[E.B.]

Crossbows are not for archers, they are for taking advantage of a season.

[Bow Walker]

As I see it the problem lies not with the equipment itself (the crossbow) but with the 'hunters' who just want to be able to extend their season so they can "go kill something".

These 'hunters' are opportunistic (imo), and don't have the mindset of 'real' bowhunters, who will get to know their equipment through practice and are dedicated to the idea of shot placement.

So, while I do consider the crossbow to be archery gear, I do not consider the average crossbow 'hunter' to be a bowhunter.

[Onesock]

Bow Walker-maybe you should change "archer" to "bowhunter" in your last sentence.

[newhunterette]

My family all belonged to TBBC for some years, our kids loved shooting the recurves. My parents used to do archery shoots when I was very young and as Peter and I got into hunting, we inherited my parent's bows. I loved how my Ben Pearson Cougar felt in my hands when I was pulling back and lining it up to hit a target. We put targets in our back yard for the kids to practise. To this day we still have our recurve bows from my parents as they are collectors now and Peter has his Checkmate take down. He hunted a few years with just his recurve.

Peter tried using a compound bow and didn't really like it. (to each their own) Compound bows didn't do it for him. He did lots of research and headed to Specialty Sports (which is no longer) and was talked into purchasing a crossbow. He hasnt looked back, he loves it and he may not attend 3d shoots with it (we didn't know crossbows were accepted at the shoots) but he does practise with his crossbow and he is not one who just wants to shoot holes.

As I mentioned I loved handling my recurve but I suffered a broken back and have not been able to pull my bow since. Last year I was gifted with a beautiful crossbow. I was given a very nice loading and locking mechanism for this bow to take the strain off my back and I have been very successful in shooting this bow at our targets. I havent hunted with it as of yet because even though I feel confident with it, I am not sure if I am ready to actually hunt with it.

[CanuckShooter]

Not all crossbowers are the same. But the only 2 I know that live here pull out the bow during late bow season, take a couple shots and a way they go. Both shot bucks from the road, both had no idea how far the deer was. One guy paced it of after and said he was not to far off as he guessed 50 yards and it was about 44 yards. I guess that would explain the excellent marksmenship with a high hit above the ponch just below the spine that happened cut an artery.:roll:

Another time I was in Langley at a shooting store (that is no longer there) and some loud mouth hunter walks in demanding a crossbow for his elk hunt on Thursday(it was tuesday) He was saying how his whole crew had picked up cross bows for this hunt hoping to poke a few holes before the rifle season began.

With my limited experiance with people owning crossbows, I have a problem with crossbows included in the archery seasons. An archer tends to practice hard, to achieve his goals, the crossbow owners I have met only care about poking holes.

I am sure there are lots that practice hard I just haven't met them.:icon_frow


The same could be said for about 90% of rifle hunters.....I can honestly say that I have seen far more poor shot placement from gun hunters than bow or crossbow hunters.

[Kody94]

Crossbows are not for archers, they are for taking advantage of a season.

One could say the same of rifles, in a way...


As I see it the problem lies not with the equipment itself (the crossbow) but with the 'hunters' who just want to be able to extend their season so they can "go kill something".

These 'hunters' are opportunistic (imo), and don't have the mindset of 'real' archers, who will get to know their equipment through practice and are dedicated to the idea of shot placement.

So, while I do consider the crossbow to be archery gear, I do not consider the average crossbow 'hunter' to be an archer.

I don't have an issue with "the 'hunters' who just want to be able to extend their season". In fact I am generally happy about it. but....

What I do have an issue with is any hunter (archer or otherwise) that does not take the time to understand the limitations of their equipment and their own level of competence with it, and ensure that they hunt within those limitations.

The equivalent of "sprayin and prayin" happens with every implement of hunting, so I cannot single out the "average crossbow hunter". Its equally unacceptable wherever it occurs. I think it just happens to be more visible with the crossbow than most other cases.

[OOBuck]

The same could be said for about 90% of rifle hunters.....I can honestly say that I have seen far more poor shot placement from gun hunters than bow or crossbow hunters.

Dam beat me to it.... :-D

[Kody94]

Dam beat me to it.... :-D

Me too. ;)

[newhunterette]

Crossbows are not for archers, they are for taking advantage of a season.

So from what your saying with your comment as I have understood it to mean because I have a disability and can no longer shoot my traditional bow, I should no longer be allowed to bow hunt because I have to use a crossbow during bow season.

Wow, I guess because of my disablility, I should give up rifle hunting as well because according to the regs, I can shoot from my truck as long as I have an able bodied person with me. Would you consider me taking advantage of the rifle season as well? (on a side note: even though I am consider a person with a disability, for as long as my body co-operates, I will scout, walk, stalk, harvest critters just like every other able bodied person.)

I practise when I can, I have my own policy of don't shoot unless you know you are going to take one shot to take the animal down, if for any reason I lose the confidence in myself, I will not take the shot. I am a hunter nothing more nothing less.

[Bow Walker]

Bow Walker-maybe you should change "archer" to "bowhunter" in your last sentence.
Yeah, reads a bit better that way.


One could say the same of rifles, in a way...



I don't have an issue with "the 'hunters' who just want to be able to extend their season". In fact I am generally happy about it. but....

What I do have an issue with is any hunter (archer or otherwise) that does not take the time to understand the limitations of their equipment and their own level of competence with it, and ensure that they hunt within those limitations.

The equivalent of "sprayin and prayin" happens with every implement of hunting, so I cannot single out the "average crossbow hunter". Its equally unacceptable wherever it occurs. I think it just happens to be more visible with the crossbow than most other cases.
Very well said. In fact, I agree with your whole reply.

[OOBuck]

I could care less what you shoot as long as its legal archery tackle have at it!

The one great thing about helping other archers get set up is they make me take them to the range and practice along with them..:-D I must have shot a hundred arrows this week alone..

[Mr. Dean]

I have a COMPLETE problem with Hunters, calling for a ban on legal hunting equipment THAT IS capable of harvesting big game, cleanly.

You guys should be more welcoming AND willing to teach/pass on your experience in HOW to become efficient hunters - MO.

[Krico]

I don't know who's worse, the elitist bowhunters or the elitist flyfishers.

I hunt, sometimes with my bow and sometimes with my rifle. I fish, sometimes with a fly rod and sometimes with casting/spinning/trolling gear-I even chuck guts.
Nobody is going to tell me how much I have to practice.

I hunt and fish to get away from crowds, not to get stuck in them-exactly why I have zero interest in organized events.

It's no wonder the crossbow guys never show up at the events, they get treated like lepers.

[OOBuck]

I have a COMPLETE problem with Hunters, calling for a ban on legal hunting equipment THAT IS capable of harvesting big game, cleanly.

You are absolutely correct!!!

[steel_ram]

Rarely the equipment is to blame. Lots of game "missed" by rifle hunters. Lots of wasted game laying dead within a few hundred yards of logging roads.
I understand some countries (Sweden?) actually expect their hunters to prove competency with their equipment.

[Gateholio]

Why should anyone have to justify themselves for choosing the legal weapon they choose?

I don't shoot rifle competitions, I don't go to trap shooting competitions, does that mean I am somehow less worthy than they very, very few gun hunters that do go to organized shooting competitions?

How do you know what weapon the guy at the conservation event uses? I've been to lots of them and never brought a rifle, shotgun, crossbow or long bow, but I've used all of those to kill game.

More importantly, why does any of this matter, except to those who get their knickers in a bunch over allowing crossbows to be used in bow seasons?

Get over it, the truth is- it's just not that big of a deal that other guys like to hunt a bit differently than you.

[Mr. Dean]

You are absolutely correct!!!

I'm serious; it annoys me to no end.

That attitude 'kills' it for everyone.
It's divisive and the path only leads to conflict, which in turn, leads to more divisiveness, and so on. Then the next thing ya know, you have a small group of subjects standing on their own, trying to defend cries from another 'group' that THEIR tool of use isn't 'up to snuff'. OR, because of the lack of funding that gets created, permits become extremely co$tly and forces people out of the sport.

It's a NO WIN situation which has been historicly proven - Just take a look at the attack on firearms, hunting, SUV's, fur trade,,,,,,,,,

[sawmill]

I shot compound for 20 years and was pretty damn good at it but my shoulders are a mess anymore,bursitis,feels and sounds like they are full of gravel.I will be getting a cross bow and to hell with any one who thinks less of me.I will use it the same way I use my rifle,well sighted in,well practiced and with deadly efficiancy.

[troutseeker]

I've seen plenty of bow hunters who could not place an arrow in a pie plate at 30 yards go hunting and brag of taking long shots. Sometimes they miss, sometimes they kill and sometimes they wound...

I've seen good archers wound game and not recover the animals.

I feel sorry for the elitist bunch (always the bow shooters it seems...), who feel so superior they feel justified in preaching their misguided beliefs and "ethics" onto others.
Please, we don't need or want your attitudes or advice!

I mean really, who do you think you are?

Do what you want, try to have fun instead of worrying about everyone else, and if all fails there is always Prozak! lol

[M.Dean]

So, after reading the comments here i've decided to take up Bow hunting! Bow Hunters are by far the best hunters on earth! Bar None! Any fool can go buy a gun and shoot 200 class Mule Deer year after year!!! I also learned that there's Zero Sportsmanship in using a Rifle or even a Cross Bow for that matter!!! I want the Respect that being a Bow hunter brings, I want to be God Like, just like them!!! Once I get my Bow I can start bad mouthing every other type of hunter because I'm way better than them, hell, I won't even talk to those low life Wanna be Rifle Hunters!!! So, it's off I go to "Toy's Are Us" to pick up my new Bow!!! I may need a hand to get up on my High Horse for the ride to town, so if anyone's in the neighborhood !!!

[greybark]

:-D Mr Dean , You assumed a lot that was not in the original post . I anticipated that hence the plea for a sensible discussion .
Cheers

[steel_ram]

I've seen plenty of bow hunters who could not place an arrow in a pie plate at 30 yards go hunting and brag of taking long shots. Sometimes they miss, sometimes they kill and sometimes they wound...

I've seen good archers wound game and not recover the animals.

I feel sorry for the elitist bunch (always the bow shooters it seems...), who feel so superior they feel justified in preaching their misguided beliefs and "ethics" onto others.
Please, we don't need or want your attitudes or advice!

I mean really, who do you think you are?

Do what you want, try to have fun instead of worrying about everyone else, and if all fails there is always Prozak! lol

Always has to be some weeney that goes on the anti-elitist, your ethics over mine rant. Bow hunters are "hunters" just like you and I. Most pick up a rifle once in a while. All come from the same place as everyone else. Have an issue, grab a tissue.

[gibblewabble]

To each their own, I use a compound bow in bow season and grab my rifle for rifle season and sometimes I switch it up and take my bow out during rifle season (probably why my 30-30 is so lonely these days). Cross bows dont do it for me because it feels like a rifle and if it feels like a rifle then hell I want my rifle but if you like a cross bow fill your boots, its legal and yes it has more reach maybe you hard core bow guys should consider it a "gateway" bow and maybe some guys will move up to bows if they get the bug.
Lets stick together whatever you use, use it legally and responsibly and lets argue with the people who don't care what we hunt with but take offense that we hunt and kill animals for food. We are all, after all brothers and sisters of the same fold.

[Mr. Dean]

:-D Mr Dean , You assumed a lot that was not in the original post . I anticipated that hence the plea for a sensible discussion .
Cheers

No, I didn't.
I hear what you're saying and I'm also a believer -----> Know your weapon and know your limitations.... I all over that, trust me.

The posts after my initial one, go out all the naysayers that assume x-bows aren't a worthy tool. IMO, it's the persons skills that are lacking (same said for any type of weapon)..... And I try to help out by offering up my back 40 to those who wanna practice their efficiency, in a relaxed atmosphere that typically isn't afforded at an organized club. In fact, all that have been here practicing, all say that this type of enviourment suites them better..... This may or may not be something to think about for club officials. But I'm willing to bet that if I publicly offered up my lands for string players OF ALL types, I'd have membership/attendance that rivalled sanctioned clubs.

And I'm serious when I say that.

[troutseeker]

Always has to be some weeney that goes on the anti-elitist, your ethics over mine rant. Bow hunters are "hunters" just like you and I. Most pick up a rifle once in a while. All come from the same place as everyone else. Have an issue, grab a tissue.

Sorry no tissues here, I only use natural cotton hankies... And only fly fish for steelhead with traditional flies like the GP... :roll:

[Old Crow]

Another crossbow thread? The other 19 threads didn't cover this?

[Mr. Dean]

To add;

If we want serious discussion about club attendance, I really think we need to address the divisiveness that is felt amongst all the players...

[Onesock]

I would have to agree with M. Dean on one point. Bowhunters ARE better hunters then rifle hunters. We will use his example. One hunter consistently takes 200inch deer every year with his rifle. To do that with a bow the same hunter WILL have to be a better hunter than he was with a rifle. Take that to the bank!!

[Onesock]

:)On another note. I have hunted with allot of really good bowhunters and not one of them thinks their st!t doesn't stink, because every one of them knows it does.

[Gateholio]

To add;

If we want serious discussion about club attendance, I really think we need to address the divisiveness that is felt amongst all the players...

It's certainly not limited to archery equipment, either. I've hears many times about how trap shooters will snub the black gun guys, or 22 target shooters rag about fast firing handgunners, etc etc.

Being snooty about another persons choice of weapon is one thing, the real issue is when it goes beyond just snobbery and you try to curtail someone's activity because you don't like it. This takes place at many clubs where archery snobs don't want crossbows or Fudd's don't want black guns or handguns, and it certainly takes place with hunting seasons, where snobs try to exclude others due to their choice of weapon.

And that's bad for all involved, the snobs just aren't smart enough to understand it.

[bugler]

Greybark's original post was pointing to a trend rather than individuals. He was saying (and I've noticed it also) that crossbow owners tend not to take advantage of the practice opportunity afforded by 3-D shoots. There are many people shooting compounds and recurves who also do not attend for the same reasons some have said here. That doesn't mean that none of them ever practice on their own, but the trend is obvious. Our club has encouraged crossbow participation for a few years now and we might get one or two guys out of 200 shooters, but I'm sure that there are at least as many crossbows as compounds owned by hunters in our region.

So why the trend? It could be, as newhunterette said, that some don't realize they are welcome at the shoots and perhaps we could do a better job of advertising that. I do think it is partly due to a rifle mentality that allows people to think that they don't have to practice much. This is an individual choice and not the weapon's fault. All we can do is encourage our fellow hunter's to practice and know their weapon of choice.

[greybark]

:-D Well after 35 posts Bugler is the first to address my post !!!!!
I was hoping that some avid Crossbower would seize the moment and suggest the forming of a Prov Crossbow Org that would fit in with BCAA and the UBBC .
Cheers

[Mountaintop]

I also still have my old Ben Pearson recurve but now shoot a crossbow and I can tell you that I practice a lot during the off season. I easily put 800 shots through my crossbow before I ever thought about screwing on a broad head.

I was concerned about crossbow stigma before joining my local club but I found out that they were accepting of any weapon. Even though I am only one a few that use crossbows I was welcomed and am at my club shooting as often as I can. I have never had a hassle because of what I choose to shoot and have even been invited to shoot clays or targets with other members who have provided the shotguns and rifles.

I don’t participate in competitions because it is just not my thing. I have gone down to watch just because a skilled archer – vertical or horizontal – is a beautiful thing to watch. Heck, I even enjoy watching film of skilled natives using a spear and also appreciate a good rifle or pistol shot. Proficiency with any tool is admirable.

I would be interested in a provincial organization for crossbowers but would not such a group tend to separate the camps instead of trying to keep peace under a single tent? Personally, I like the inclusive atmosphere at my local club as it lets me try and enjoy all sorts of things without feeling like I am put into some sort of slot because I shoot a crossbow.

With all the talk about one weapon being better or more pure than another I think we are forgetting that we are all more alike than different. Whatever you use, you still have to get out before dawn and slog through the mud or rain or cold, know your land and your prey, stalk your target and get close enough to the animal put a hole into it in an ethical way. Then you have to clean and drag it out. When it comes down to it when that back strap melts in your mouth does it really make any difference if you used a horizontally or vertically flung pointy stick or a piece of lead?

[Gateholio]

:-D Well after 35 posts Bugler is the first to address my post !!!!!
I was hoping that some avid Crossbower would seize the moment and suggest the forming of a Prov Crossbow Org that would fit in with BCAA and the UBBC .
Cheers

You think BC needs another shooting/hunting group? :-D

Crossbow users should just join the BCAA or UBBC or even better- the BCWF if they are hunters. Why add another group to the mix?:confused:

And as to your original post, why do crossbow users need to stand up and be counted separately from any other hunter? Why do they need to attend a 3D event to be respected? I said in an earlier post that also addresses your first one:

I don't shoot rifle competitions, I don't go to trap shooting competitions, does that mean I am somehow less worthy than they very, very few gun hunters that do go to organized shooting competitions?

[The Hermit]

I try to get out to shoot my rifles at least one a month, my recurves and longbow once a week (more closer to and during hunting season), and now that I have a compound and crossbow to play with will probably shoot them when practicing with my other bows. I love going to 3-D events but can't always make the time or afford to travel to as many as I'd like. To be honest this is not enough practice with any of the equipment... my bad.

This next part is for anyone thinking about picking up a crossbow and going hunting with minimal practice, but it is NOT for Mr. Anti-social leave me to hell alone and don't bug me Troutseeker :mrgreen: I don't believe him though because after all he does post here! LOL I know, with the handle The Hermit I'm no one to talk!! :twisted:

I think that a lot of bowhunters ASSUME that because a crossbow shoulders like a rifle, has a scope, trigger and safety like a rifle, and that because it can be carried cocked (but not loaded with a bolt) that they make hunting with one easier and give the crossbowyer such an advantage during bow season that too many deer (does) will be killed from a conservation perspective resulting in a loss of bowhunting opportunity.

My experience having owned a couple crossbows is that they are not as easy to hunt with that many people think, unless you are treestanding that is and even then they present challenges that the vertical bow doesn't. Crossbows are at least as heavy as a rifle, they are MUCH more difficult to carry through the forest and up/down steep slopes than rifle or vertical bow!! They are also a LOT more noisy, and no more accurate or have any better effective range than a compound bow either. So I think the conservation concern is pure ignorance and or BS.

Having said that, I think clubs and 3-D organizers need to make it very clear whether crossbows are allowed at their shoots. For example, there is a big 3-D Indoor shoot in Abbotsford this weekend and I don't recall seeing anywhere that crossbows are welcome. Are they? If so I'll bring mine and anyone that wants to shoot a round to get a feel for a modern crossbow is welcome to give it a go!

For me the biggest challenge in hunting has always been to get close enough to shoot with confidence that I'll make a good clean kill regardless of whether I was rifle hunting or bow hunting. I believe since taking up bowhunting my general hunting skills have improved and that I am slowly become a better hunter because of the need to get REALLY close. I can also sing like Pavarotti, dance like Fred Astair, and make love like Ron Jeremy. None of these talents alone make me an elitist, its my better than you attitude that does the trick!

Seriously, I have met HUNDREDS of bowhunters in the past few years and have never met a single one that thinks they are apodictically better or more deserving than any other hunter. This whole elitist thing in my view is total bull shit! moreover, in the quick and dirty on-line poll we conducted here on HBC last year the results indicated that MOST people that bow hun also rifle hunt.

Peace Out

[troutseeker]

Well, I am a bit anti-social...:-D I just don't see the point in hanging out with a crowd just to do what I like.

But I am with Gatehouse here, what is the point of creating another body??? Seems silly and it will only cause the divide to grow.:confused:

I say live and let live, just like religion, don't push your preferred hunting methods on me.:mrgreen:

[Bow Walker]

I think I need to make a couple things very clear.

1. I bow hunt by choice (for the past 12 or 15 years now)

2. I also gun hunt - just not as often. I've gun-hunted since I was old enough to own my own gun. Before that I went out with my Dad and his partners.

3. I believe that crossbows should be classed as "archery equipment".

4. I cannot foresee the day when I will take up the crossbow to hunt with - I'll go back to my guns first.

5. I do not consider myself to be an elitist by any description or in any fashion.

6. I do not consider myself better than others just because I choose to hunt a bow and arrow.

7. I believe that anyone who hunts has a responsibility to do so to the best of their abilities. That includes a responsibility to be proficient with their chosen weapon(s).

8. Failure to be proficient with any weapon(s) of choice earns my dis-respect and disgust.

Too plain for anyone? Tough. Deal with it.

There are 'elitists' here on this site. Two vocal ones come to mind immediately - they will remain nameless (at least by me).

99% of the archers that I have met, and/or conversed with, do not consider themselves elitist. Let's get past this shite and concentrate on uniting ALL hunters.

[rocksteady]

Not directed to any particular post, but....................


Blah, blah, blah.....again !!!!

[Bow Walker]

Yeah, I hear ya Rock. Seems to be the same people saying the same things.....yet again!

[savagecanuck]

Love my Crossbows so much so I gave up my old titan 10 point to my kids to use.I am the proud new owner of a Excaliber Equinox[thk to Hardcore Archery]I do target shoot with an 18@1 target not into the club scene for my guns or xbows.Nothing like puting along on my quad with my xbow ready to rock knowing I can hunt right up to city limits.I don't usually shoot anything small so don't really care if I get anything but very happy when the opportunaty presents.Yes I rifle hunt as well.Too each his own instead of complaing about the merits of Crossbows add the the economy and purchase one.A decent set up can be had for $700.Till the law says I am doing something illegal I will continue to use my xbow on the extended seasons and if you don't like it too bad sit at home

[J_T]

Have to admit, I was impressed with how so many posters probably saw the subject line "crossbows" and just jumped in with both feet making statements that had little to do with the original post. Flashing the elitist and divisive remarks....

I think if people really read the original post they would have seen, it identified an interesting anomaly. I mean, sure, not everyone participates, but that's a reason of personality, not a weapon reason. So we should wonder why we are not seeing more crossbow participants at shoots.

I'm not sure I would see rifle competitions the same as a 3D. 3D is (IMO) more reflective of a hunting scenario and provides a bowhunter with quick assessment of a variety of distances (arrow trajectories)

FYI in the UBBC bowhunter survey taken last year. 40% of respondents do not go to 3D shoots (this is not just crossbow shooters) and 20 % of respondents go to 2 or less shoots. But, close to 20% go to 6 or more shoots. Also relevant only 2% of the respondents shoot a crossbow.

[J_T]

I can also sing like Pavarotti, dance like Fred Astair, and make love like Ron Jeremy. None of these talents alone make me an elitist, its my better than you attitude that does the trick!

But they do make you awful scary.




...... apodictically ......
Still scary. Great word. I love Wikipedia. I'll use it.

[Stéphane]

Oh, I didn't even know they were allowed in 3-D shoots. I had the pleasure to try a crossbow at the shooting range last week when my dentist, of all people, showed up with one. I shot at 30 yards and it was horizontally correct but vertically not so much. Way to low. Just like everything, practice would help a lot.

I use a compound bow and I don't have any long guns. For me, the crossbow isn't an option at this point in time. Nothing against them, but I prefer the lightness of a bow. If you compare a crossbow to a gun, it is quieter!

[huntwriter]

:-D I recognize the legality of hunting with a Crossbow . I have shot in ONE 3-d with a crossbower and had a friend hunt out of my camp with a crossbow .
:icon_frow What surprises me is for the past 25 years I have seen only seen Two others participate at a 3-d event .
:icon_frow Recently the Crossbow Talk on this forum has increased and 99% is to complain . Where is the Walkin that goes with Talkin .
Dedication involves practice and participation and lack of attendence of 3-d and conservation events seem to promote negativity towards Crossbowers . Crossbowers must stand up and step forward to be counted , respected and not complaining from the sidelines .
:-D This post was stimulated by OObuck`s last positive post (couple of new bowhunters) and serious discussion is requested .
Cheers

Well, my experience based on what I have observed on various events, including two archery 3-D tournaments that invited crossbow shooters, is that very often they are treated like outcasts. It can't be helpful if crossbow shooters have to overhear snickering and snide remarks behind their backs. At a hunting trade show last year a crossbow hunter asked the speaker a question and what he got was ridicule and been made fun of in front of everybody.

The sad fact is that crossbow shooters/hunters do not feel welcome or even respected. With a background like that it does not come as a surprise to me that crossbow shooters/hunters don't like to get involved in anything that has to do with archery.

If we want to change that then it is up to us, the archers, to reach out and above all show some respect. I remember several years ago I wrote a feature article about crossbows and crossbow hunting. The editors loved the article but still declined to print it for fear that their readers would get upset. I think archers and bowhunters should get of off the high horse they been riding on for so many years and accept that crossbows ARE archery equipment. After all crossbows are around for as long as traditional bows, and much longer than guns. If anything the gun is modeled after crossbow, not the other way around.

Given the latest archery trade market trend archers and bowhunters better get used to it to see more crossbows in the very near future. It seems my predictions five years ago that crossbows will dominate in the future come true. Traditional archery sales are going down. Compound bow sales remain the same. Crossbows are on a upswing and continue to gain market shares. The industry whispers that crossbows soon will do what the compound bow did to traditional archery, becoming the number one choice for bowhunters. This might be the reason why we see more and more compound bow manufacturers adding crossbows to their lineup.

[Gateholio]

I think if people really read the original post they would have seen, it identified an interesting anomaly. I mean, sure, not everyone participates, but that's a reason of personality, not a weapon reason. So we should wonder why we are not seeing more crossbow participants at shoots.

I'm not sure I would see rifle competitions the same as a 3D. 3D is (IMO) more reflective of a hunting scenario and provides a bowhunter with quick assessment of a variety of distances (arrow trajectories)

FYI in the UBBC bowhunter survey taken last year. 40% of respondents do not go to 3D shoots (this is not just crossbow shooters) and 20 % of respondents go to 2 or less shoots. But, close to 20% go to 6 or more shoots. Also relevant only 2% of the respondents shoot a crossbow.

Okay, but what is the point?

Is it that Crossbow hunters don't feel welcome at 3D events?:confused:

[huntwriter]

As I see it the problem lies not with the equipment itself (the crossbow) but with the 'hunters' who just want to be able to extend their season so they can "go kill something".

Funny, this is the same argument I heard when the first compound bows came on the market. Remember what an outcry that caused in the bowhunting/archery word. Pope & Young at the time quickly declared that they would not accept any trophies taken with an "evil" compound. They changed their tune when nobody registered animals with them anymore. I also remember the many articles in bowhunting magazines of that time vilifying compound bow hunters. With the gaining popularity of the crossbow history is repeating itself again.

[huntwriter]

With my limited experiance with people owning crossbows, I have a problem with crossbows included in the archery seasons. An archer tends to practice hard, to achieve his goals, the crossbow owners I have met only care about poking holes.

Spending a lot of time at our club range I can tell you that the majority of bowhunters using compounds do the exact same thing. One week before the hunting season opens they show up at the range, shoot a half dozen arrows at 30 yards and then declare, "I am good to go." Becoming proficient and spending the time needed has nothing whatsoever to do with the weapon a person chooses. There are as many slobs with compounds as there are with crossbows or any other weapon.

Heck the guy who shot an arrow at me many years ago, mistaking me for a deer at 30 yards :rolleyes:, was a traditional archer and a bowhunting education instructor to boot. I never get tired of telling that story.:-D

[Ambush]

It was not the OP's intention, but these crossbow threads always go the same way.

I love the irony in the typical "anti-bowhunter's" posts.
" Those f#@*ing eletist bowhunters can kiss my a$$, I hate then all, all they do is cause division".

I don't see any bowhunters complaining, only some people complaining about bow hunters. Who's alienating who?

And to guys like Troutseeker. I don't worry about how or what you hunt with, so why do you get so wound up by how I hunt?

Where's the love, man?:(

[huntwriter]

I would have to agree with M. Dean on one point. Bowhunters ARE better hunters then rifle hunters. We will use his example. One hunter consistently takes 200inch deer every year with his rifle. To do that with a bow the same hunter WILL have to be a better hunter than he was with a rifle. Take that to the bank!!

I am a hunter that uses compound bows, traditional bows, crossbows, muzzleloaders (both trad. and in-line), rifles and bolt action slug guns. Why so many different weapons? Because I can! Yet I never felt that when I take my bows, which is most of the time, that I am a "better hunter". I do not need better skills to hunt with a bow, just different skills. Granted some of these skills take a bit longer to learn but that still does not warrant the description, "better". Each weapon I use needs different, not better, skills to be successful at killing an animal.

[Mr. Dean]

It's certainly not limited to archery equipment, either. I've hears many times about how trap shooters will snub the black gun guys, or 22 target shooters rag about fast firing handgunners, etc etc.


Oh so TRUE!
I've shot in LM clubs since the early 90's and I've seen all of these examples.

[Gateholio]

It
I love the irony in the typical "anti-bowhunter's" posts.
" Those f#@*ing eletist bowhunters can kiss my a$$, I hate then all, all they do is cause division".

I don't see any bowhunters complaining, only some people complaining about bow hunters. Who's alienating who?

?:(

I haven't seen anyone complaining about bow hunters, I see people complaining that some bow hunters feel crossbow hunters are not to be respected because they don't show up at 3D matches.

And if you haven't been seeing "bowhunters" complaining about crossbow hunters, you haven't been paying attention.

I still haven't heard what was the point of the OP? Is it that crossbow shooters don't feel welcome at 3D shoots?

[J_T]

Gate, You're looking for a point. I don't think there has to be a point, as I stated earlier, the OP is merely pointing out an anomaly. And perhaps creating awareness that the archery community have opened up and crossbows are welcome at an archery shoot. He's also suggesting that 3D shoots add value to being a good (successful) bowhunter and he would hope through creating this awareness, more people will participate. That's what I'm reading in there.

[Bow Walker]

I agree with J_T about the 'point' of this discussion. It would benefit the crossbow shooters a great deal if they were to participate in 3D shoots. They would most likely have to endure some snide remarks from ignorant people for a while - until those ignorants got over their problems. But with greater exposure comes greater acceptance by the hunting community at large.

Hell, I've been at 3D shoots where, at the start of the shoot, when the groups of shooters are walking out to their respective start points, a group of Trad guys in front of our group were all bitching among themselves (in loud voices) about the how the "compound shooters weren't real archers". They were quite pissed and grumpy about it too. So the 'elitist' attitude(s) are still out there and they need to be relaxed.

There are a lot more crossbow shooters than ever before but I do not agree with huntwriter that
"It seems my predictions five years ago that crossbows will dominate in the future come true."
I also think that there are two reasons why we don't see crossbow shooters at 3D events. These reasons are based purely on personal observation and reasoning...

1. Most clubs don't allow crossbows at their shoots - for whatever reasons that they state. The fact is that crossbows are no more dangerous to people than any other type of weapon is - and - crossbows are no more destructive to the targets that any other type of bow is.

2. Most crossbow shooters could care less about 3D shoots or archery events. All they are interested in is getting out into the bush (legally) as soon as possible and staying out there as long as possible, so that they can hunt earlier and later than they could with a gun.

Everywhere I go, if I encounter a crossbow shooter, I treat them with the same courtesy and respect that I would expect to be treated with. It's the Golden Rule, and it pays off. I always give people the benefit of the doubt. Everyone is innocent until they prove themselves to be guilty.

[newhunterette]

I would love to get back into 3D shoots, especially because of the friendships that we developed while being involved with the TBBC.

However as I mentioned before - I did not know that crossbows were allowed in 3D shoots, now I do. I will have to check out the range we go to, to see if we are allowed to practise with our crossbows. If indeed we can practise with our crossbows and we are accepted into 3D shoots, that would be wonderful because my kids loved the bow shoots and they were very good and I know they would love to join in again.

I look at my crossbow as being a means for me to continue doing what I love so much and that is hunting. I like the fact that if I want and chose to hunt during bow season, I have a way to do it. If someone wants to belittle me, be disrespectful to me, then so be it. I can't change small minded people and I actually pity people who are so judgmental, learn the facts before karma bites you in the tushy.

[greybark]

Gate, You're looking for a point. I don't think there has to be a point, as I stated earlier, the OP is merely pointing out an anomaly. And perhaps creating awareness that the archery community have opened up and crossbows are welcome at an archery shoot. He's also suggesting that 3D shoots add value to being a good (successful) bowhunter and he would hope through creating this awareness, more people will participate. That's what I'm reading in there.

:-DThe Archery Community has opened up to crossbowers , I didn`t see the negativity that some post about when crossbowers attend 3-d events .
I understand it is the some of the Clubs Insurance policys that prohibits crossbows from attending their events .This policy is misunderstood , misplaced and wrong , BUT there are no Crossbowers to vote in changes . Policys and regulation are initiated from the inside and not the sidelines . I know of two Clubs that had their Insurance changed to the better but only an organized lobby can further benifites for All Archers .
This was and is the intent of the OP .
Cheers

[Ambush]

And if you haven't been seeing "bowhunters" complaining about crossbow hunters, you haven't been paying attention.
And if you haven't seen posters, vilifying bow hunters in nearly every thread about bow seasons, then you really haven't been paying attention either.
But I know you have. And I know I don't have to search and re-post them for you. Maybe we should both agree to ignore the 2% extremists, on both sides and the picture would look better.:wink:

I have never called down any gun or crossbow hunters for their chosen tool. But I have been called, a sissy, elitist, snobby, selfish, self centered, egotistical a$$hole, by association, because of the tool I choose.

Fact is, most bowhunters don't get wound up about it, because most bowhunters also rifle hunt. It's just another season.
It seems that gun hunters that never bowhunt are the ones always crying fowl.

[Stéphane]

I just got off the phone with the organisers of the 3-D in Abbotsofrd next week at the Agrifair regarding crossbows, and they are not allowed because of the city bylaws for inside shoots. Sorry Hunterette. :(
However, the next one in April (Chad Davies shoot?) at the Abby Fish and Game, crossbowers will be welcomed and encouraged to come. I look forward to see them.

[The Hermit]

I just got off the phone with the organisers of the 3-D in Abbotsofrd next week at the Agrifair regarding crossbows, and they are not allowed because of the city bylaws for inside shoots. Sorry Hunterette. :(
However, the next one in April (Chad Davies shoot?) at the Abby Fish and Game, crossbowers will be welcomed and encouraged to come. I look forward to see them.

Thanks for the leg work. I'll leave my crossbow at home and bring along a new Limbsaver Deadzone Lite and a sweet Empress Mountain longbow for people to try!

Cheers...

[troutseeker]

Wow, bow shooters deciding it will be beneficial for crossbow shooters to participte in 3d shoots. Nice of one group to decide what's best for another.

Seems to me you don't get that the majority of crossbow shooters do it because the learning curve is shorter, they are physically unable to draw a bow or they simply want to be able to hunt in the archery season with a tool they dont need to pratice with all the time to remain proficient.

I am thinking of forming a crossbow association for BC! The goal will be to educate people in the ease of use of a crossbow and show them that once your scope is set and you carry a range finder to confirm distances, you are good to go!

Just set it and forget it!

[emerson]

The "hate on" that non-crossbowers have for the crossbow crowd is the same as "anti's" have for everything this forum is about.



I believe because of my rifle backround it will be easier for me to learn to hunt with crossbow than another bow style. When that happens I will be as circumspect about it in public as I am now about my chosen hobbies.

Those who are whining about how crossbowers are less likely to practice than other hunters are the same type of personalities that anti's recruit for their "keeping us safe from ourselves" agendas.

[huntwriter]

I just got off the phone with the organisers of the 3-D in Abbotsofrd next week at the Agrifair regarding crossbows, and they are not allowed because of the city bylaws for inside shoots. Sorry Hunterette. :(
However, the next one in April (Chad Davies shoot?) at the Abby Fish and Game, crossbowers will be welcomed and encouraged to come. I look forward to see them.

See that right there is the problem why crossbow shooters do not get involved in archery activities as the original poster was wondering. Hypocrisy and ridicule are to blame for it. There are still many clubs and archery events that will not allow crossbow shooters to take part. The insane thing about this unfair discrimination is that it is based on nothing more than unfounded hype and agenda driven on by archery organizations that somehow regard the crossbow as competition or a detriment to their sport.

We had the same problem in our club. Crossbow shooters could use the target range only if they used their own targets but they where not "allowed" on the archery trail. When I came on the board as archery committee chairman I changed that narrow minded discriminating stupidity in a hurry. With facts I was able to persuade the board members and the insurance company that regardless of the crap they have been told about crossbows they are not more dangerous than compounds and they do not damage targets more than arrows shot from any other bow.

If we want to get crossbows involved to take part then we need to lighten up and welcome them with open arms and accept them as what they are, just another form of archery.

[Ambush]

The "hate on" that non-crossbowers have for the crossbow crowd is the same as "anti's" have for everything this forum is about.
Where do you see this hate exhibited? Do you see this yourself or is it something you just "know"?
I've been around archery a long time and I haven't really noticed it to any extent. Not anymore than magnum devotees make fun of 30-30 shooters. Or trad guys making fun of us guys with "training wheels" on our bows.

It seems it's mostly non-bowhunters telling crossbowers that bowhunters despise them.
I say it just ain't so!! Not among the guys I know.

[Gateholio]

Do Pope & Young recognize crossbows in thier record books?

[Bow Walker]

Hah! Are you kidding?!?

[J_T]

Wow, bow shooters deciding it will be beneficial for crossbow shooters to participte in 3d shoots. Nice of one group to decide what's best for another.

Seems to me you don't get that the majority of crossbow shooters do it because the learning curve is shorter, they are physically unable to draw a bow or they simply want to be able to hunt in the archery season with a tool they dont need to pratice with all the time to remain proficient.

I am thinking of forming a crossbow association for BC! The goal will be to educate people in the ease of use of a crossbow and show them that once your scope is set and you carry a range finder to confirm distances, you are good to go!

Just set it and forget it! I don't think the intent by the original poster was to "decide" what was beneficial for another group. In any way. He pointed out an anomaly. But you might continue to spin some hate on in hopes you can create a case for yourself in your new CABC. I just can't fathom the jump to false judgement here.

FYI In our late season hunting camp we have 9 hunters, 2 crossbows, 3 compounds, 4 recurves. Of the 9, 3 are also rifle hunters. Pretty good cross section of the hunting fraternity. We congratulate a successful hunter equally. It has NOTHING to do with the equipment.

But you get on that CABC, let us know how you make out. We'll be here to support you, probably buy a membership and attend your event, whatever that might be.

Just set it and forget it.. Great tag line for a new organization.

[Gateholio]

And we wonder where the hate comes from?:-D:mrgreen:

[emerson]

Where do you see this hate exhibited? Do you see this yourself or is it something you just "know"?
I've been around archery a long time and I haven't really noticed it to any extent. Not anymore than magnum devotees make fun of 30-30 shooters. Or trad guys making fun of us guys with "training wheels" on our bows.

It seems it's mostly non-bowhunters telling crossbowers that bowhunters despise them.
I say it just ain't so!! Not among the guys I know.
I read many more threads than I post in. This thread is proof that the acrimony exists.

[huntwriter]

Do Pope & Young recognize crossbows in thier record books?
No! Here is the link (http://www.pope-young.org/bowhunting_clubposition.asp) to the P&Y anti crossbow statement. It is interesting to note that the P&Y club published the exact same statement in the late 1960's and through the 1870's -80's when compound bows became a popular. Now they put that same statement up again, exchanging the words "compound bow" for "crossbow". P&Y only started to accept compound bows as "legitimate" around the late 80's when the club started to loos a lot of money because the compound became the norm for bowhunters but they couldn't enter the P&Y records.

The Professional Bowhunter Society is even more outspoken about their anti crossbow stance (http://www.probowsociety.org/xbow.html). Their narrow minded agenda was the reason why I quit that organization in 1992.

[J_T]

Do Pope & Young recognize crossbows in thier record books?
No they don't. And that's got nothing to do with anyone here. The position of the archery and bowhunting community has a long standing tradition and is based on definition that a crossbow is shoulder held, cocked and released with a trigger. Federally in Canada (RCMP) the crossbow is not considered the same as a longbow or compound bow. Again, that's got nothing to do with anyone on this site. It's the cards that are dealt.

Here in BC we accept the crossbow as legal archery tackle. It doesn't make it a bow or change the position of an international body, but what it does here is provide a number of hunters an opportunity to get out and enjoy the forest with some enhanced or additional opportunities. Great cross over weapon.

I think Ambush is right. If we want real change, acceptance has to occur. I would say that most bowhunters on this site don't have issue with crossbows. Perhaps once they did, but by sharing information and positions, those views have changed. What we still have here, is others constantly poking and telling one group another doesn't like them. Let's move forward and I look to you Gatehouse as a person of influence on this site to help in this regard. To shift your position and help change the collective feelings. Feel free to poke and prod guys like Onesock and Aggie, because there are generally personal issues at the crux of those discussions and they are poking in their own way, but let's collectively move on. Accept each other and respect each other.

[Gateholio]

Crossbow Policy Statement
The Pope and Young Club was founded to promote bowhunting and to record for posterity the outstanding examples of North American big game animals taken solely with the hunting bow.

For the purpose of the Pope and Young Club, a bow shall be defined as a longbow, recurve bow or compound bow that is hand-held and hand-drawn, and that has no mechanical device to enable the hunter to lock the bow at full or partial draw. Other than the energy stored by the drawn bow, no device to propel the arrow will be permitted.

Consequently, the Pope and Young Club does not consider the crossbow to be a hunting bow and will not accept any trophies collected by crossbow hunters. Further, the Pope and Young Club considers the use of crossbows during bowhunting seasons to be a serious threat to the future of bowhunting.

The Pope and Young Club therefore recommends the crossbow should not be considered for use in any bowhunting only season. Also, the Club strongly recommends that crossbow hunting be abolished from all existing bowhunting only seasons and the use of crossbows for hunting be restricted to firearms seasons.

[huntwriter]

FYI In our late season hunting camp we have 9 hunters, 2 crossbows, 3 compounds, 4 recurves. Of the 9, 3 are also rifle hunters. Pretty good cross section of the hunting fraternity. We congratulate a successful hunter equally. It has NOTHING to do with the equipment.

But you get on that CABC, let us know how you make out. We'll be here to support you, probably buy a membership and attend your event, whatever that might be.

In our hunting camp it was the same. One rifle hunter, 2 compound bow hunters and I used my new crossbow. We all got along well. However, these are individual people. The bowhunting community at large is still AGAINST the inclusion of crossbows or even accepting them as a bowhuting tool period. The P&Y and the Professional Bowhunter Society, to which I posted links here, are just two of many influential bowhunting organizations that feed the anti crossbow agenda. In Illinois five bowhunting organizations took the DNR to court to prevent a decision to include crossbows as legal hunting weapon for all, not only disabled hunters.

[Gateholio]

This year Whistler was considering a bowhunting ban. At this very critical time, instead of just focusing on the real issue, this local bowhunter chose to take shots at crossbows, potentially alienating allies and further dividing the hutning community. It's stuff like this that propagates the "bowhutners hate crossbows" stories. And I've seen the same stuff posted here on HBC many, many times...

Dear Editor,

(Re: “Bowhunting bylaw sought,” Question, July 29)

As a long-time traditional archer, I was shocked to learn about Sylvia Dolson’s plans to ban all bowhunting in the resort and beyond. This is the same person who brought us bear contraception for Jeanie the bear. Remember these are wild animals — not our local pets.

As a bowhunter and long-time resident, I wanted to provide my insight.

I can agree with Ms. Dolson on a few points:

Firstly, that all crossbows should be banned throughout the province and in my eye, Canada-wide. A crossbow is a rifle stock with a bow-laid across it that is held with a trigger mechanism and shot similar to a rifle. Crossbow users are typically gun hunters who are trying to get in on the early bow season, without the dedication, training and ethics of a traditional bow hunter, and many hunters fail to comprehend the limitations of their weapons.

Instead, I use a traditional bow (longbow, compound or recurve), which takes time, effort, practice and skill to master. Traditional bowhunters are in touch with their environment and their hunting surroundings. I also practice archery — the oldest sport in the world and a designated Olympic event.

Secondly, I agree that legally shooting at bears from the Callaghan Road and Highway 99 is neither sporting nor humane. When it comes to baiting bears for viewing, Whistler Blackcomb is just as guilty since it baits bears for tourists by planting luscious grasses and clover — plants that are not native to this area. Back in the day, it was mostly salal and blueberries.

For as long as I can remember, I’ve picked pine mushrooms while hiking with my bow and enjoyed many a grouse dinner, hunted locally for subsistence within an hour-and-a-half walk of my home in Creekside (or hunted with my mountain bike and trailer between Lost Lake and Chaplinville). I am a hunter that judges a hunter by what he has in the freezer and not by what he/she has hanging on their walls.

The fear mongering generated by Councillor Lamont about mountain bikers being shot in the chest with a bow shows his lack of knowledge of the sport. With the aspect and thickness of our forests, long shots are not taken, and an ethical shot is 35 yards or less. Most of the trails in the valley were at one time either animal and/or hunting trails, long before WORCA took ownership of them. These include the Khyber, Cougar Mountain, top of Rainbow, up into Garibaldi Park and Black Tusk, the Soo, the Rutherford and the area known as “pick-up sticks.”

Bowhunters can hear mountain bikers and hikers coming from over 150 metres away — farther than our bows can even shoot. There are far more injuries generated in the “trauma parks” than in a hunting incident in the valley. How many rhythm or pump tracks have been set up on public land?

As a bowhunter, I pay $150 per year in licensing fees and tags to hunt on Crown land. Maybe it’s time to license mountain bikers using the backcountry? I’m sure this new fee or tax could help out our cash-strapped B.C. government.

When it comes to dogs, they are required by law to be kept on leash when entering a provincial park. Every year, there are incidences of dogs maiming and killing deer. I wonder how many of those dogs kill for subsistence?

I know my views aren’t popular with many, but this is the way I enjoy the Whistler backcountry. For most archers, it’s a lifelong sport just like skiing. Remember that we all preach to Ullr — the Norse god of skiing and archery.

If you piss him off, we could all be in for a bad snow year.

Curtis Christian

Whistler

[Gateholio]

PBS National Anti-Crossbow Committee

While the Professional Bowhunters Society recognizes the rights of hunters to choose other weapons in separate seasons, the crossbow is not considered a bow by definition or technological standard. The crossbow should thus not be allowed in archery only seasons.

The PBS National Anti-Crossbow Committee stands in the forefront with other hunter groups and organizations to....

» Educate bowhunters, legislators, and game agencies to the detrimental impact crossbows present to archery-only hunting seasons.
» Protect the intent and challenge of hunting with archery equipment in archery only seasons.
» Promote fair-chase to the game we pursue.

Adaptive equipment is available to allow youth, women, and the physically challenged enjoy the challenging "walk in the woods" that those before us intended archery season to be.

PBS's position regarding the crossbow was developed with input from our membership, and accepted as PBS position, only after the membership voted to accept it as such.


!!! RED ALERT !!!

There are crossbow bills in Texas, South Carolina, New Jersey, Minnesota, and Illinois. They include the same issues of old, physically challenged, women, and youth. Ever noticed in their advertising there is no "poster" child of the above.

One thing that is now different is that game agencies are lacking funding and turning to industry to bail them out by sneaking the crossbow through the back door and into archery seasons or signing Memorandums Of Understanding. Both avenues are touted as just wanting to expand archery. Hmmm, do you think they may ask for a favor for their helping out?

Some game agencies are selling out our public trust. They manage wildlife and wildlife should not be a money maker for private industry. They are selling out our natural resource to private industry and not involving the conservationist - the hunters! Jim Posewitz said it best in one of his books "commercial interests should not be given privilege when hunting opportunities are allocated."

If the different implement seasons were created to let each group have a separate season based on the efficiency of the weapon, then why let a hybrid implement (crossbow) into an archery only season?

Hybrid you say? Not my term but one from a member of the Archery Trade Association (ATA). They certainly realize that the crossbow is not a bow, but still some ATA members want it in archery only seasons. I have to agree that it is not a firearm either as I don't hear the "bang" but it really looks and shoots like one.

My state, New York, says they will not introduce a crossbow into archery seasons if it would cause conflicts between hunters, but they are trying. Some agencies are saying that that have large herds and need to get them under control. Some states probably do. If you had this problem wouldn't you use the most effective tool a firearm which harvests far more animals?

In Ohio there are more crossbow hunters than real bowhunters. Who has the voice for bowhunters in that state now?

Urban deer control is another hot topic that crossbow proponents discuss using the crossbow for. Why? Conventional bow users have had a success rate from 38% to over 150% depending on the area. They have been successful in reducing urban deer. The real issue in some of these urban areas is access, not weapon.



Mark L. Scott
PBS Anti-Crossbow Chair

[huntwriter]

Crossbow users are typically gun hunters who are trying to get in on the early bow season, without the dedication, training and ethicsof a traditional bow hunter, and many hunters fail to comprehend the limitations of their weapons.

This is always the part that boggles my mind. What the hell have ethics to do with the choice of weapon? Am I only "ethical" when I use my traditional bow but not the next day when I might use my crossbow? No other word in the hunting community has been more abused, misunderstood and confused than "ethics."

[steel_ram]

This is always the part that boggles my mind. What the hell have ethics to do with the choice of weapon? Am I only "ethical" when I use my traditional bow but not the next day when I might use my crossbow? No other word in the hunting community has been more abused, misunderstood and confused than "ethics."

I agree. Though I may question some "hunters", ethics, the tool of choice has nothing to do with it. The word seems to slip in all over the place. Creates a lot of tears.

A side from that, questions: Though probably against the rules of a range, do crossbow users ever carry around a cocked and loaded crossbow? Do the shorter "bolts" get stuck in targets with no end to pull on?

[J_T]

I'm feeling you guys are derailing the original post significantly, but I'll have the conversation with you. Anytime we reference something said in the past I think we need to accept, things do change. So of course there has been lots of infighting, but a post from 2 or 3 years ago, doesn't suggest that's the way it is today.

Gatehouse, of course there's bickering. I will say that a lot of it starts in jest and then as others jump in, they jump to conclusions and it escalates. Does it mean we have to pay attention to it? Everyone time we do, it festers the issue just that much more.

Obviously here in BC we prove we are different than the PBS and P&Y because we do allow crossbow use in bow seasons here. It doesn't make everyone happy, but it does suggest in BC the olive branch is being held out? Let's build on what is, not what everyone is saying.

Huntwriter, I'm not sure I really care what's going on in Illinois. Sure, big picture a guy has to no about. But there are starving children in Haiti, Africa, Afghanistan. Let's keep things in perspective. Geographically too. What we can have some influence over, is the issues here in BC. Crossbow use here in BC.

[huntwriter]

A side from that, questions: Though probably against the rules of a range, do crossbow users ever carry around a cocked and loaded crossbow? I only can speak for our range and the answer is no. At least I have never seen one walking around with an arrow loaded.


Do the shorter "bolts" get stuck in targets with no end to pull on? Never seen that happen at our range or on my personal targets. My target gets a good pounding every week from traditional bows, compound bows and crossbows and you cannot tell the difference which holes are made by by which arrows. This was an argument in our club too that crossbow arrows damage targets.:roll: Of course arrows damage targets over time, regardless from what bow they are shot from.

[huntwriter]

Obviously here in BC we prove we are different than the PBS and P&Y because we do allow crossbow use in bow seasons here. It doesn't make everyone happy, but it does suggest in BC the olive branch is being held out? Let's build on what is, not what everyone is saying.

We're not that different here in BC as Gatehouse's post of the letter to the editor proves. Such letters are quite common, even here in BC, and they DO help to shape the peoples opinion of hunters and crossbows in particular.

As a bowhunter it concerns me what policy the P&Y club has regarding crossbows. If I kill a big buck with the crossbow I can't enter it in the trophy book should I want to do this. Other trophy recording organizations use the P&Y and B&C trophy entering standard as guideline here in BC and Canada.


Huntwriter, I'm not sure I really care what's going on in Illinois. Sure, big picture a guy has to no about. But there are starving children in Haiti, Africa, Afghanistan. Let's keep things in perspective. Geographically too. What we can have some influence over, is the issues here in BC. Crossbow use here in BC.

The big picture is very important because like it or not, local success or the lack of it, it will affect us all. Personally I care very little about what locally is achieved, as admirable as this is, when it can be steamrolled over in years to come by the "big picture". In my opinion it exactly what many hunters fail to realize. Everybody is busy worrying about the little things in front of their noses but neglect to see the pig picture and how it could be influenced. The crossbow is a good example for that. Although accepted and hard fought for in many areas (local success), like here in BC, by large the crossbow is still vilified and no opportunity is left out to influence media accordingly.

[J_T]

We're not that different here in BC as Gatehouse's post of the letter to the editor proves. Such letters are quite common, even here in BC, and they DO help to shape the peoples opinion of hunters and crossbows in particular.

As a bowhunter it concerns me what policy the P&Y club has regarding crossbows. If I kill a big buck with the crossbow I can't enter it in the trophy book should I want to do this. Other trophy recording organizations use the P&Y and B&C trophy entering standard as guideline here in BC and Canada.



The big picture is very important because like it or not, local success or the lack of it, it will affect us all. Personally I care very little about what locally is achieved, as admirable as this is, when it can be steamrolled over in years to come by the "big picture". In my opinion it exactly what many hunters fail to realize. Everybody is busy worrying about the little things in front of their noses but neglect to see the pig picture and how it could be influenced. The crossbow is a good example for that. Although accepted and hard fought for in many areas (local success), like here in BC, by large the crossbow is still vilified and no opportunity is left out to influence media accordingly.
Taking an animal with a crossbow is a choice you make going in. If you think you might want to 'compete' with other hunters and register your 'trophy' then choose a weapon that is accepted by the rules. It's very simple. Are we talking about hunting opportunity where in BC a crossbow is accepted as legal archery tackle? Or your ability to register a trophy?

Your comment on the big picture really just feels like a lot of yadda yadda yadda. Worry about here, and worry about now. Worrying about what P&Y says or adheres to is only going to lose me sleep. There is little I can do to influence them without a substantial commitment. Not a small commitment, but a substantial commitment. On the local front. I care greatly about BC and the regions within which I hunt. I feel I have something at stake and I want those who follow in our footsteps to enjoy the best opportunity they can. This I do have some influence over. We all do. By working locally, we can have an impact globally. The crossbow is vilified, because we describe it as vilified. Reversing the trend starts with statements like that. I think we all get the picture. It's incumbent on each of us to have a more open mind and accept things.

[troutseeker]

Yawn... No wonder I don;t hang around clubhouses...

[The Hermit]

Yawn... No wonder I don;t hang around clubhouses...

LOL but you hang around here which is the only place I encounter this stuff! In camp, once in a while we yak about how silly the arguments get! At 3-D shoots we talk about our shooting, our kids, hockey, and your girlfriend! :twisted:

[troutseeker]

LOL but you hang around here which is the only place I encounter this stuff! In camp, once in a while we yak about how silly the arguments get! At 3-D shoots we talk about our shooting, our kids, hockey, and your girlfriend! :twisted:


Hehe, it's like watching a train wreck, I wanna look away but I just can! Lol.

And I think it's cool that you guys talk about your shooting, hockey, your wives and my kids! :twisted:

[huntwriter]

Taking an animal with a crossbow is a choice you make going in. If you think you might want to 'compete' with other hunters and register your 'trophy' then choose a weapon that is accepted by the rules. It's very simple. Are we talking about hunting opportunity where in BC a crossbow is accepted as legal archery tackle? Or your ability to register a trophy?

Opportunity in general, not only BC, especially in a case like crossbow where the rejection is based on nothing more then hype and willful misinformation and outright lies.


Worry about here, and worry about now. Worrying about what P&Y says or adheres to is only going to lose me sleep. There is little I can do to influence them without a substantial commitment. Not a small commitment, but a substantial commitment. On the local front. I care greatly about BC and the regions within which I hunt. I feel I have something at stake and I want those who follow in our footsteps to enjoy the best opportunity they can.

I am not worried but I DO promote and support ALL forms of hunting be that here in BC or in North America. All the discussions about what hunting method is better, which group hunters deserve more consideration, or what constitutes "real" hunting, what weapons should be considered as hunting tools is counterproductive to the future of our heritage. Maybe it's just me, but I do have a problem with hunters that vilify others for no other reason than the choice of weapon or hunting method they employ and here as elsewhere there is plentiful evidence how such negativity toward others has resulted in regulation changes. Take the bear baiting ban in BC or the loss of the blackpowder season as an examples of many how ignorance of hunters can influence lawmaking.

[greybark]

:-D As J_T and Ambush posted Vilification of Crossbows is quite over rated . I`ve witnessed nothing that some have posted here . I have wittnessed interest and questions posed to Crossbowers when they do appear on the 3-d circuit .
:-D Local full blown Crossbower Commitees are not needed , One crossbower could help the event organizers with such things as Pin Placements and aleviate any safety concerns .
:wink: Even if all sides of contension modified somewhat and a consenses reached there would still be those who contribute nothing and boast how they stay home :-D I have no problem with that ....
Cheers

[Ambush]

Opportunity in general, not only BC, especially in a case like crossbow where the rejection is based on nothing more then hype and willful misinformation and outright lies.
In regards to setting seasons and there is also science and math applied.

I think sometimes you mistakenly equate your opinions with facts.

[Ruger4]

Do Pope & Young recognize crossbows in thier record books?


NO !!! :mrgreen:

[huntwriter]

In regards to setting seasons and there is also science and math applied.

I think sometimes you mistakenly equate your opinions with facts.

You must have misunderstood my post. I was not talking about setting hunting seasons for a particular type of weapon. The post was about rejecting the crossbow as a legal hunting weapon.

Although many jurisdictions permit crossbows for all hunters, and thankfully more do so every year, there still many that do not. Where the crossbow is not permitted the reasons for it are based on myth and lies about crossbows, not facts. I could go on an list all the common myth that are used to "persuade" game agencies not to permit crossbows but I assume you're familiar with them.:wink:

[J_T]

You must have misunderstood my post. I was not talking about setting hunting seasons for a particular type of weapon. The post was about rejecting the crossbow as a legal hunting weapon.

Although many jurisdictions permit crossbows for all hunters, and thankfully more do so every year, there still many that do not. Where the crossbow is not permitted the reasons for it are based on myth and lies about crossbows, not facts. I could go on an list all the common myth that are used to "persuade" game agencies not to permit crossbows but I assume you're familiar with them.:wink:
Well my apologies to Greybark. This post has gone quite sideways.

HW, I respectfully disagree with you regarding the reasons behind crossbow acceptance. The "rules" or position of various organizations relative to crossbows were developed at a time before the compound bow, or at least before the compound evolved to what we have today.

There was quite a difference (effective range, efficiency etc) between a traditional bow and a crossbow. During this time, it meant that a bow season was viewed more as a 'primitive' season. The reason the crossbow, at that time, was not provided opportunity in a bow season was due to conservation issues. This has been proven in a couple of studies in the states. A deer season was created for bowhunters (it did not disallow the use of crossbows, but it was based on a more primitive type of weapon) and the model for success was based on a very low success rate.

In the first year most bowhunters used only the primitive weapon. In time, rifle enthusiasts realized the very real opportunity in this bow season and they took up the crossbow to enjoy it. Over a three year period the harvest model increased significantly as more hunters picked up the crossbow. The result was that wildlife managers had to make some changes.

There are those purists that do lobby to keep the crossbow out of bow seasons, but there is also a potential conservation issue. Perhaps not here in BC and that's why we can enjoy the crossbow here. But it isn't all based on myth and lies. The concerns can be based in conservation.

What evolves is a positional archery community in part because of a conservation concern (which should be tempered by region) and an ingrained thinking. Remember, bowhunting is an apprenticeship. We find a mentor and we take on their style, their position and their beliefs. To evolve away from that takes time, patience and information.

[Stéphane]

I just got off the phone with the organisers of the 3-D in Abbotsofrd next week at the Agrifair regarding crossbows, and they are not allowed because of the city bylaws for inside shoots. Sorry Hunterette. :(
However, the next one in April (Chad Davies shoot?) at the Abby Fish and Game, crossbowers will be welcomed and encouraged to come. I look forward to see them.


See that right there is the problem why crossbow shooters do not get involved in archery activities as the original poster was wondering. Hypocrisy and ridicule are to blame for it. There are still many clubs and archery events that will not allow crossbow shooters to take part. The insane thing about this unfair discrimination is that it is based on nothing more than unfounded hype and agenda driven on by archery organizations that somehow regard the crossbow as competition or a detriment to their sport.

We had the same problem in our club. Crossbow shooters could use the target range only if they used their own targets but they where not "allowed" on the archery trail. When I came on the board as archery committee chairman I changed that narrow minded discriminating stupidity in a hurry. With facts I was able to persuade the board members and the insurance company that regardless of the crap they have been told about crossbows they are not more dangerous than compounds and they do not damage targets more than arrows shot from any other bow.

If we want to get crossbows involved to take part then we need to lighten up and welcome them with open arms and accept them as what they are, just another form of archery.

Othmar, I really respect you as a hunter, I enjoy your post and I appreciate the advice you give me. But here you are in the wrong regarding the Abbotsford indoor 3-D shoot organised by the Sagittarius Archery Club. I added my post too because your reply referred to it.

It is not the club that do not allow crossbow but the city of Abbotsford. They are peculiar with their bylaws. Just to give you another example, you can be fined for parking your car on your lawn. That's Abbotsford.

When they will have their outdoor shoot, all type of archery will be welcome.

[Gateholio]

There is currently a debate in Alberta about whether to allow crossbows in bow season. Some are worried that too many will participate in bow seasons if crossbows are allowed, so they will have to cut back on tags issued or season length.:-D

[greybark]

There is currently a debate in Alberta about whether to allow crossbows in bow season. Some are worried that too many will participate in bow seasons if crossbows are allowed, so they will have to cut back on tags issued or season length.:-D

:-DGh , As with your other posts this one has nothing to do with the OP . In fairness most posts are similiar .
:-D How firm must one be to provide an incentive for Crossbowers to help themselves ? Thirty years ago I stood up at a meeting and asked for the Clubs support in submitting a Bowhunting Resolution . I was ridiculed , told to sit down and was told I was no different than anyone else . Since then some inroads have been made through lots of Time and Initive (and some whining)of bowhunters .
:wink:I don`t understand the willingness of Crossbowers to sit back with the " Blame Others" attitude . The Fortitude of people such a B Olsen is but one example with others that still post here that got Bowhunters their Respect with Envirimental and Goverment Organizations .
:wink: Crossbowers should take advantage of what has been accomplished and strive for their concerns . It only takes one dedicated leader .
Expect to be told to "sit down" a few times but by all means press on .
Cheers

[huntwriter]

Othmar, I really respect you as a hunter, I enjoy your post and I appreciate the advice you give me. But here you are in the wrong regarding the Abbotsford indoor 3-D shoot organised by the Sagittarius Archery Club. I added my post too because your reply referred to it.

It is not the club that do not allow crossbow but the city of Abbotsford. They are peculiar with their bylaws. Just to give you another example, you can be fined for parking your car on your lawn. That's Abbotsford.

When they will have their outdoor shoot, all type of archery will be welcome.

In my post I was not specifically referring to city and town by-laws. I guess you refer to the no firearm discharge by-law. Many jurisdictions include the crossbow in that law. Where do you think did the lawmakers get the information that crossbows are "firearms"? :wink:

The simple fact is, and that brings us back to the original post, there are a lot of misconceptions about crossbows and the people who use them. Although it has gotten quite a bit better recently with the general attitude toward crossbows, years of ridicule has driven many crossbow users into anonymity and now we wonder why they not get more involved. It takes time to heal old wounds.

To give you and others an idea of how deep these wounds run. I receive a lot of emails and PM's (not all from this site) with questions concerning crossbows and hunting with them. These people are afraid to post their questions in an open source for fear it would unleash a barrage of negativity and hatred. That's NOT the way to gain more hunters. That is how we will loose hunters, or scare people who would like to become hunters away from the sport. As hunters we should make every effort to become more tolerant of each other or hunting will be doomed. All that infighting and looking for problems where there aren't any works against us in the long run.

[SMOLT333]

I have to give up shooting with my compound due to a shoulder injury so I am in the process of getting a crossbow. I do plan to shoot 3-D with a crossbow,this is a consideration when chosing a crossbow as most 3-D shoots have 40 targets. Can all of you crossbow owners cock your bow 40 times in a 3-D shoot? These shoots are a great way for improving your estimating range of an animal along with accuracy. I know that the AFGC allows crossbows in their 3D shoot, it happens in mid April .I plan to shoot in it, any crossbow shooters out there interested in joining me.

[Gateholio]

:-.
:-D How firm must one be to provide an incentive for Crossbowers to help themselves ?



What exactly do they have to help themselves with? BC allows crossbows in bow seasons, and that isnt' going to change. What more do they need?:confused:


Gh , As with your other posts this one has nothing to do with the O

I you told us what the point of your OP was maybe it would be easier to come up with replies on topic? If it's just that crossbows dont' show up at 3D matches, then so what? Most of the bowhunters I know that live around here don't go to 3d matches either.

If it's that they *need* to go to 3d matches to be respected by other bowhunters, I'd ask why they a) need to do that to earn respect b) should care f other bow hunters respect them
:confused:

[Ambush]

There is currently a debate in Alberta about whether to allow crossbows in bow season. Some are worried that too many will participate in bow seasons if crossbows are allowed, so they will have to cut back on tags issued or season length.:-D

And Gatehouse is not trying to throw gas on the fire?:confused:

I was going to mention Alberta in order to bring some math into the equation.
Right now cross bows are not allowed in the two month long archery season, that is followed by a one month rifle season.
And if crossbows are allowed then the season will be shortened. Right now the archery harvest is sustainable because of low success rate. Many hunters don't think it's worth the hassle of becoming proficient with a bow, when they can enjoy a high success rate in the shorter gun season.
If crossbows are allowed, archery hunter numbers and harvest rate will increase to the point where a shortened season becomes necessary.
So now you have a one month archery [or less] and a one month gun season, but likely about the same number of deer dead, because it will be adjusted to meet the desirable harvest number. That is not a myth or a lie, it's a just demonstrable mathematical conclusion.

All you've really succeeded in doing is shorting the season that EVERYBODY could enjoy if they chose. Then what will follow is that many of the new crossbow hunters will begin to leave the crossbow in the closet because, although fun, it's not the magic bullet to success.
So now you have a shortened bow season and the same gun season and it will be a tough up hill battle to get the season extended again.
End result?? Less hunting time!!

This does not equate to an across the board Alberta to BC scenario.
Most of Alberta is covered with..........nothing!! And BC is covered with thick cover. Folks in Alberta scout from their pick-up from a hill and see every deer for miles around. You can't do that here.
With our generous gun seasons, there is really no need for anyone to take up a crossbow just to have a chance at killing an animal. So the numbers a not a threat at all. Which is why MOST bowhunters, in BC, don't care if you bring a crossbow into camp.

Seasons and quotas are set to be achieved using numbers.

[Gateholio]

And Gatehouse is not trying to throw gas on the fire?:confused:

Just having a discussion. :-D






I was going to mention Alberta in order to bring some math into the equation.
Right now cross bows are not allowed in the two month long archery season, that is followed by a one month rifle season.
And if crossbows are allowed then the season will be shortened. Right now the archery harvest is sustainable because of low success rate. Many hunters don't think it's worth the hassle of becoming proficient with a bow, when they can enjoy a high success rate in the shorter gun season.
If crossbows are allowed, archery hunter numbers and harvest rate will increase to the point where a shortened season becomes necessary.
So now you have a one month archery [or less] and a one month gun season, but likely about the same number of deer dead, because it will be adjusted to meet the desirable harvest number. That is not a myth or a lie, it's a just demonstrable mathematical conclusion.

All you've really succeeded in doing is shorting the season that EVERYBODY could enjoy if they chose. Then what will follow is that many of the new crossbow hunters will begin to leave the crossbow in the closet because, although fun, it's not the magic bullet to success.
So now you have a shortened bow season and the same gun season and it will be a tough up hill battle to get the season extended again.
End result?? Less hunting time!!

This does not equate to an across the board Alberta to BC scenario.
Most of Alberta is covered with..........nothing!! And BC is covered with thick cover. Folks in Alberta scout from their pick-up from a hill and see every deer for miles around. You can't do that here.
With our generous gun seasons, there is really no need for anyone to take up a crossbow just to have a chance at killing an animal. So the numbers a not a threat at all. Which is why MOST bowhunters, in BC, don't care if you bring a crossbow into camp.

Seasons and quotas are set to be achieved using numbers.

I bet if Alberta left the seasons the same length and included crossbows they would see a few more deer killd the first year or 2 and then it would level off again, for just this reason:


Then what will follow is that many of the new crossbow hunters will begin to leave the crossbow in the closet because, although fun, it's not the magic bullet to success.

It is much ado about nothing, IMHO.

[GoatGuy]

To the question.

Crossbow shooters are probably mostly in it to hunt, not to shoot. This doesn't mean that they don't shoot or become proficient it simply means they don't hang out at 3d competitions. Most of the guys who are in 3d comps are in bow 'shooting' as much as they are bow 'hunting'. People don't really pickup a crossbow to 'bow shoot'.

Crossbows are also easier to shoot so perhaps crossbow hunters require a more challenging course, who knows?

Also, there is a social stigma attached to crossbows amongst bow hunters and also some rifle hunters, it's simply a fact. People can talk about how they've never heard it, seen it or feel that way themselves but if you sit in a room with a bunch of compound and especially traditional guys it's there. No not everyone, but there's enough lunch boxes out there that you can pick up on it. Heck, even this thread (not purposely) disassociates crossbows with bows. :wink: My old man shot a recurve but he also had an old xbow that he'd shoot just for shits and giggles. I don't ever recall him shooting the xbow anywhere other than at the house. He'd go to the f&g club every night after work to shoot his recurve in August to brush up.

Lastly, 3D shoots aren't for everyone just the same as trap shooting, IPSC, rifle competitions, turkey shoots etc. Then there's the people that show up at these events. :shock:

I believe opening the door is the right way to go, if you want to increase participation you have to actually go after it.

[GoatGuy]

There are those purists that do lobby to keep the crossbow out of bow seasons, but there is also a potential conservation issue.

Would be nice to talk about conservation and hunting opportunities, wouldn't it?

[greybark]

I have to give up shooting with my compound due to a shoulder injury so I am in the process of getting a crossbow. I do plan to shoot 3-D with a crossbow,this is a consideration when chosing a crossbow as most 3-D shoots have 40 targets. Can all of you crossbow owners cock your bow 40 times in a 3-D shoot? These shoots are a great way for improving your estimating range of an animal along with accuracy. I know that the AFGC allows crossbows in their 3D shoot, it happens in mid April .I plan to shoot in it, any crossbow shooters out there interested in joining me.

:-D Great , I hope to see you there and would be glad to shoot with you ...To me Range Estimation is primary, Form secondary and 3-D`s are a good training aid . As well as fun .
Cheers

[troutseeker]

Bah, double standards... Let's just make it one hunting season for everyone! This way there will be no reason for anyone to want to exclude anyone else. Very democratic, no?

[greybark]

:-D GH , I was reluctant to answer your posts as I considered them off the subject . OK some slightly :-D

The OP says nothing about "must attend 3-D`s"
However I respect those Crossbowers that contribute just by showing up .

Help themselves ?
Making the 3-d course interesting , fun and learnative .
Taking the Unknown part of Crossbows out of the equation thus reducing negativity .

Cheers.

[J_T]

Bah, double standards... Let's just make it one hunting season for everyone! This way there will be no reason for anyone to want to exclude anyone else. Very democratic, no? Yup, let's just manage hunting opportunity for the lowest common denominator. The point is, the viability of some opportunity may only be present when we consider an alternative weapon restriction. It isn't about a double standard. Management opportunities must consider a number of variations, Trophy hunting, meat hunting, old hunting, road hunting, young hunting, and work toward the best balance it can.

Do we manage for only two styles? GOS and LEH. I say there is a middle option if certain criteria are met. I'm certainly not saying bowhunters 'have to have it all' on the contrary. We can move to alternative weapons and a new objective called quality hunting might be a result. It's simple. But the holistic thought we are all rifle toting road hunters looking for meat is simply not the case.

[bcfarmer]

Well my apologies to Greybark. This post has gone quite sideways.

HW, I respectfully disagree with you regarding the reasons behind crossbow acceptance. The "rules" or position of various organizations relative to crossbows were developed at a time before the compound bow, or at least before the compound evolved to what we have today.

There was quite a difference (effective range, efficiency etc) between a traditional bow and a crossbow. During this time, it meant that a bow season was viewed more as a 'primitive' season. The reason the crossbow, at that time, was not provided opportunity in a bow season was due to conservation issues. This has been proven in a couple of studies in the states. A deer season was created for bowhunters (it did not disallow the use of crossbows, but it was based on a more primitive type of weapon) and the model for success was based on a very low success rate.

In the first year most bowhunters used only the primitive weapon. In time, rifle enthusiasts realized the very real opportunity in this bow season and they took up the crossbow to enjoy it. Over a three year period the harvest model increased significantly as more hunters picked up the crossbow. The result was that wildlife managers had to make some changes.

There are those purists that do lobby to keep the crossbow out of bow seasons, but there is also a potential conservation issue. Perhaps not here in BC and that's why we can enjoy the crossbow here. But it isn't all based on myth and lies. The concerns can be based in conservation.

What evolves is a positional archery community in part because of a conservation concern (which should be tempered by region) and an ingrained thinking. Remember, bowhunting is an apprenticeship. We find a mentor and we take on their style, their position and their beliefs. To evolve away from that takes time, patience and information.

My apologies to GB as well, however I must comment on the highlighted portion of the above text.

What was not written here is that the success ratio, between primitive weapon bow hunters and crossbow hunters was statistically, no different.
There were just more hunters in the field therefore more than the planned amount of deer were harvested.



Greybark, as to your original post.....

I can only speak for myself.

I currently own two crossbows. They have always fascinated me,probably since the first movie I seen them in. I shoot one because of shoulder issues which make practicing with a compound or re curve extremely painful.

I had no interest in 3-D shoots our club put on until I owned my first. The year I got my crossbow, I was talked into trying it out at the shoot. I must say it was the most fun I have ever had shooting at targets, and I do it all, handguns, trap, bench, it doesn't matter, I enjoy them.
The group I went with was very accepted of my joining in....they all knew me. Others however...not so much. That was probably ten years ago.

Things have definitely changed, at least locally. There were, I believe, six crossbow shooters out of 75 at our first 3-D shoot last year. There was only myself at our second, but I believe that had more to do with timing (mid-may) and busy schedules.

In our small community/club there are several that shoot crossbows...most don't participate in 3-d shoots....but all practice at home. Funny thing is most club members that shoot or own crossbows, are at the 3-d shoots helping out with the many jobs needing to be done.

Crossbow acceptance from the bowhunting fraternity in general is changing for the better. However it is very hard to put aside and forget comments made by influential executive members of two of BC's bowhunting organizations. Hard, but not impossible. I am even noticing some softening, or at least quietening on their positions.

One last thought, dedication to bowhunting involves practice and education. It does not, in my mind, have to include participation at 3-D shoots. 3-D shoots are a fantastic learning arena, but not the only one.

respectfully,


bcf

[huntwriter]

There are those purists that do lobby to keep the crossbow out of bow seasons, but there is also a potential conservation issue.

Not according to the information I've been provided from various U.S. states that included crossbows for all hunters, either in a separate season or where it belongs in the bowhunting season. The statement of the Tennessee DNR, the latest state to include crossbows for all hunters during archery season, echos what many other DNR's have experienced.

"Adding crossbows to the bowhunting season HAS NOT raised any wildlife conservation concerns.The average deer harvest numbers are NOT significantly higher." I like this one especially "The general consensus of bowhunters suggests that the addition of crossbows HAS NOT limited the quality of the bowhunting experience as feared by many after the announcement of the DNR's decision to include crossbows in the regular bowhunting seasons." I have to note that in Tennessee bowhunters and their organizations fought hard and very vocal, even in court, against the decision to include crossbows as legal, but the DNR went ahead regardless of the protest and did what they felt had to done. I like this one too. "There are NO indications that the addition of crossbows resulted in more wounded or lost deer." The report also states that more hunters took part in the bowhunting season than in previous years, and not all of them are firearm hunters taking advantage of it. The majority are new hunters taking advantage of an easy to learn weapon. NEW HUNTERS! Now that right there is very good news.

I am not surpised by such reports. After all hunting with a crossbow is not much different then hunting with a compound bow. Both have more or less the same advantages and limitations.

[Ambush]

There is currently a debate in Alberta about whether to allow crossbows in bow season. Some are worried that too many will participate in bow seasons if crossbows are allowed, so they will have to cut back on tags issued or season length.:-D


Just having a discussion. :-D

HAHA! Yes, where would Geraldo and Jerry Springer be without a stimulus for good discussion.:-D:wink:

[GoatGuy]

Yup, let's just manage hunting opportunity for the lowest common denominator. The point is, the viability of some opportunity may only be present when we consider an alternative weapon restriction. It isn't about a double standard. Management opportunities must consider a number of variations, Trophy hunting, meat hunting, old hunting, road hunting, young hunting, and work toward the best balance it can.

Do we manage for only two styles? GOS and LEH. I say there is a middle option if certain criteria are met. I'm certainly not saying bowhunters 'have to have it all' on the contrary. We can move to alternative weapons and a new objective called quality hunting might be a result. It's simple. But the holistic thought we are all rifle toting road hunters looking for meat is simply not the case.

JT, the concept that we are managing 'for the lowest common denominator' is preposterous. BC manages most of its species more conservatively than virtually every other jurisdiction in North America and that isn't for wildlife, it's for hunters, and it isn't for meat hunters! We also have more self-induced restrictions than probably any other place in North America.

When you talk about hunting in other jurisdictions in the US you completely ignore the fact that most states have 250,000 to 1 million hunters in places that are the same size as southern BC. If you took the hunter densities from the US and plunked them into Region 4 you could EASILY expect 200,000 hunters. If you look at places like NY State you could expect over 200,000 hunters in a place the size of the EK, never mind the fact that most of the land down there is private which would substantially increase the number of hunters on public land! You are cherry picking the stuff you want instead of looking at the whole picture - the bias is huge.

We do not 'manage for LEH', we're supposed to manage wildlife. While it may seem like small potatoes it is in fact the biggest threat we face.

When you dip into social factors and veer away from wildlife management you open the world to the flavour of the day and that includes anti-hunting. When we ignore wildlife management in favour of the "I thinks" and "I wants" we move ourselves rapidly into line with organizations like PETA and Raincoast instead of sticking to the facts and the science.

While everyone thinks what they're selling is what everyone else wants, that is most often wrong.

[J_T]

JT, the concept that we are managing 'for the lowest common denominator' is preposterous. BC manages most of its species more conservatively than virtually every other jurisdiction in North America and that isn't for wildlife, it's for hunters, and it isn't for meat hunters! We also have more self-induced restrictions than probably any other place in North America. I wasn't suggesting we 'should'. Rather I was suggesting he was intimating we should.


When you talk about hunting in other jurisdictions in the US you completely ignore the fact that most states have 250,000 to 1 million hunters in places that are the same size as southern BC. If you took the hunter densities from the US and plunked them into Region 4 you could EASILY expect 200,000 hunters. If you look at places like NY State you could expect over 200,000 hunters in a place the size of the EK, never mind the fact that most of the land down there is private which would substantially increase the number of hunters on public land! You are cherry picking the stuff you want instead of looking at the whole picture - the bias is huge.I merely used the study from the states to suggest that other forces are at work. I completely understand that higher population densities exist in the states. How long would you like my posts.


We do not 'manage for LEH', we're supposed to manage wildlife. I believe I understand this as well. I wasn't suggesting in any way we should manage 'for' LEH. What I know, is that Gov consider two types of seasons, 1) GOS and 2) LEH. I promote a middle ground when GOS can not be met, or where a quality opportunity can be found.

[Onesock]

You all know x-bows are legal archery gear in BC, right. I haven't seen any shots at any particular x-bow hunters on here.What I see is a bunch of x-bow shooters/non x-bow shooters taking shots at other bowhunters. And everyone says bowhunters are the culprits? X-bows are legal in BC. Why not drop this shit now. Talk about splitting up hunters!!!! Personnaly I don't care what anybody shoots. Have at'er. And if I happen to have an opinion that doesn't agree with yours, tough sh!t. Its my opinion.

[Gateholio]

You all know x-bows are legal archery gear in BC, right. I haven't seen any shots at any particular x-bow hunters on here.What I see is a bunch of x-bow shooters/non x-bow shooters taking shots at other bowhunters. And everyone says bowhunters are the culprits? X-bows are legal in BC. Why not drop this shit now. Talk about splitting up hunters!!!! Personnaly I don't care what anybody shoots. Have at'er. And if I happen to have an opinion that doesn't agree with yours, tough sh!t. Its my opinion.

Well this is quite a change of tune. You used to say quite often that crossbows shouldn't be allowed in bow seasons. Congratulations.:-D

[GoatGuy]

I wasn't suggesting we 'should'. Rather I was suggesting he was intimating we should.
I merely used the study from the states to suggest that other forces are at work. I completely understand that higher population densities exist in the states. How long would you like my posts.

I believe I understand this as well. I wasn't suggesting in any way we should manage 'for' LEH. What I know, is that Gov consider two types of seasons, 1) GOS and 2) LEH. I promote a middle ground when GOS can not be met, or where a quality opportunity can be found.

Don't worry about length, just be concise and show the whole story. :wink:

The government considers multiple different seasons and restrictions.

GOS
GOS with sex restrictions
GOS with temporal restrictions
GOS with antler/horn restrictions

LEH
LEH with sex restrictions
LEH with temporal restrictions
LEH with antler/horn restrictions

Bow only seasons
Bow only seasons with sex restrictions
Bow only with temporal restrictions
Bow only with antler/horn restrictions

Shotgun seasons

Age related restrictions
Access restrictions
Vehicle restrictions


Those restrictions aren't there for 'meat hunters', they are there for what you call 'quality hunters' and more often outfitters. They have nothing to do with conservation, they're entirely social.

I guess what I'm trying to say is you're talking about and looking for a 'quality opportunity' and you're talking about other jurisdictions almost as if they're common in other places. Without a doubt we have some of the lowest hunter densities in North America (probably the lowest after Alaska, YK and NWT), far more and diverse wildlife and more restrictions. You seem to think that regulations favour truck hunters who are looking for meat- when you compare them to other places in NA they don't. Minimums of 20 bucks:100 does, 20 bull:100 cows for elk and 30 bulls:100 cows for moose average some of the highest standard across North America. These are minimums, not maximums, so in areas with road closures, limited access and low hunter density (most of the province in fact) the sex ratios are much , much higher.

In the US they actually target sex ratios. They have management targets that ensure buck:doe ratios are 10-15 or 15-20 or 20-30 or 30-40 bucks:100 does. The minimums are much, much lower than they are in BC. In other jurisdictions a buck:doe ratios of 25:100 is considered quality - across most of BC that would be LOW - we probably only have a handfull of MUs in BC which bounce around 20:100 for MD.

So, when you're talking about 'quality opportunity' consider what goes on across the rest of NA and think about what goes on in BC. Just because we don't have as many regulatory suites does not mean we suffer on animals or quality - all it means is we either have a lot of wildlife, very few hunters or both.

[The Hermit]

GG that was an excellent post! I know that J_T knows all of that and will probably agree with you on every point. Spelling it out like that without all the emotional tweaking is exactly what is needed! Thanks

On the secondary question about success rates with crossbow vs other archery tackle as HW and other have said I just don't see the issue being a valid concern in BC. As I mentioned in another thread hunting with a crossbow is really not as easy as lots of bow and rifle hunters assume! It is actually harder to get to within that magic 30 - 40 yards with a crossbow than a compound or trad bow. Shots with any archery tackle beyond that are in my opinion simply too far regardless of how well the archer can shoot at targets 3-D or bags... game animals move and especially with the BANG that crossbows make WILL move... arrows/bolts are not bullets!

[J_T]

Well, I actually just think this thread has been twisted and spun enough that very little of anything is consistent with much.

[Onesock]

Gatehouse-No change of tune at all. I still don't think x-bows should be allowed in bow seasons for anyone that can shoot a vertical bow. Haven't changed my mind on that. X-bow's should only be allowed if there is some reason a person can't shoot a vertical bow. However, x-bows are legal in BC. And like I said if that is your choice, fly at it. It doesn't bother me a bit, what choices other hunters make for themselves.

[Gateholio]

Gatehouse-No change of tune at all. I still don't think x-bows should be allowed in bow seasons for anyone that can shoot a vertical bow. Haven't changed my mind on that. X-bow's should only be allowed if there is some reason a person can't shoot a vertical bow. However, x-bows are legal in BC. And like I said if that is your choice, fly at it. It doesn't bother me a bit, what choices other hunters make for themselves.

Oh I see...

[Bow Walker]

Barefoot:) (a.k.a. Onesock), why not just let it all go? Develop a tolerant attitude and let people use what they want whenever they want - as long as it's legal?

If you try to limit the use of crossbows to a certain sector of the public you're going to create a whole new level of bureaucracy to control and monitor that limitation. :confused:

[Onesock]

BW- maybe you should re-read my last post!

[CanuckShooter]

Gatehouse-No change of tune at all. I still don't think x-bows should be allowed in bow seasons for anyone that can shoot a vertical bow. Haven't changed my mind on that. X-bow's should only be allowed if there is some reason a person can't shoot a vertical bow. However, x-bows are legal in BC. And like I said if that is your choice, fly at it. It doesn't bother me a bit, what choices other hunters make for themselves.

And I think they shouldn't have bow only season openings during rifle seasons. Why should some stick and string guy be able to hunt while rifle hunters cannot?? Just because some fellows can't handle the recoil of a modern firearm shouldn't give them special opportunities.

[Ambush]

I think crossbows will never be a big problem here [hunting wise] simply because of logistics. BC is too large an area with too few hunters already to have an adverse affect game populations. And the number of hunters is declining.

If anything sends the crossbow to it's grave, it will be the non-hunting public that only sees it portrayed in the media, being used maliciously. And some publicity seeking politician will call for it's banning in an emotional appeal for public safety. And all the rest will have to quickly agree or look like they don't care about you. And since 99.6% of the population doesn't own a crossbow, it won't even rate a shoulder shrug.

Hunters bickering on HBC, at 3D shoots or around the campfire won't make any difference. It's just a past time that I rate about on the same level as the discussions concerning running cats with hounds or taking long shots at game animals. A few passionately arguing either side and the rest, in the middle, are mildly interested and amused.

Woody Allen made a statement explaining his love affair with his [adult] adopted daughter.

"The heart wants, what the heart wants." It can't be helped.

When in a battle of the heart, common sense is the first casualty.

[J_T]

And I think they shouldn't have bow only season openings during rifle seasons. Why should some stick and string guy be able to hunt while rifle hunters cannot?? Just because some fellows can't handle the recoil of a modern firearm shouldn't give them special opportunities.
Really not possible to have a 'bow only' season during GOS though is it. It wouldn't be bow only.

My apologies again to the original post and it's intent. The discussion certainly took a number of tangents.

[Bow Walker]

Gatehouse-No change of tune at all. I still don't think x-bows should be allowed in bow seasons for anyone that can shoot a vertical bow. Haven't changed my mind on that. X-bow's should only be allowed if there is some reason a person can't shoot a vertical bow. However, x-bows are legal in BC. And like I said if that is your choice, fly at it. It doesn't bother me a bit, what choices other hunters make for themselves.

I did read your last post and I am well aware of your reasoning. I just think that you should relax and accept that crossbows are a part of the archery world and will be used by non-physically challenged people.

[Bow Walker]

And I think they shouldn't have bow only season openings during rifle seasons. Why should some stick and string guy be able to hunt while rifle hunters cannot?? Just because some fellows can't handle the recoil of a modern firearm shouldn't give them special opportunities.
Now that is the most non-sensical reply that has been posted on this whole thread. :confused:

It is borderline stupid and antagonistic. I hope you were being sarcastic canuckshooter, because I think that you're just a wee bit smarter than that. :-|

[greybark]

My apologies to GB as well, however I must comment on the highlighted portion of the above text.

What was not written here is that the success ratio, between primitive weapon bow hunters and crossbow hunters was statistically, no different.
There were just more hunters in the field therefore more than the planned amount of deer were harvested.



Greybark, as to your original post.....

I can only speak for myself.

I currently own two crossbows. They have always fascinated me,probably since the first movie I seen them in. I shoot one because of shoulder issues which make practicing with a compound or re curve extremely painful.

I had no interest in 3-D shoots our club put on until I owned my first. The year I got my crossbow, I was talked into trying it out at the shoot. I must say it was the most fun I have ever had shooting at targets, and I do it all, handguns, trap, bench, it doesn't matter, I enjoy them.
The group I went with was very accepted of my joining in....they all knew me. Others however...not so much. That was probably ten years ago.

Things have definitely changed, at least locally. There were, I believe, six crossbow shooters out of 75 at our first 3-D shoot last year. There was only myself at our second, but I believe that had more to do with timing (mid-may) and busy schedules.

In our small community/club there are several that shoot crossbows...most don't participate in 3-d shoots....but all practice at home. Funny thing is most club members that shoot or own crossbows, are at the 3-d shoots helping out with the many jobs needing to be done.

Crossbow acceptance from the bowhunting fraternity in general is changing for the better. However it is very hard to put aside and forget comments made by influential executive members of two of BC's bowhunting organizations. Hard, but not impossible. I am even noticing some softening, or at least quietening on their positions.

One last thought, dedication to bowhunting involves practice and education. It does not, in my mind, have to include participation at 3-D shoots. 3-D shoots are a fantastic learning arena, but not the only one.

respectfully,


bcf

:-Dbcf , This was the intent of the OP . You provided some of the leadership that is sadly lacking in the Crossbow community .
Indeed practice does not have to come from 3-d but I highly recommend it .
Cheers

[bugler]

One thing about 3-D shoots that I would urge those who haven't attended to consider. The one thing you get at a shoot that you can't get in your back yard shooting by yourself is pressure. While it is not quite the same as the pump you get when a live one approaches, that little bit of pressure to perform in front of your buddies can affect your ability to shoot well, and I've found that I've learned to bear down and focus on the shot in spite of the pressure. This has truly helped me follow through when a live one presents itself. I know it is not for everyone but it is the kind of practice you can't get anywhere else.

[huntwriter]

Crossbow acceptance from the bowhunting fraternity in general is changing for the better. However it is very hard to put aside and forget comments made by influential executive members of two of BC's bowhunting organizations. Hard, but not impossible. I am even noticing some softening, or at least quietening on their positions.


That is along the lines I wrote in my first post. It is not up to the crossbow shooter/hunters to make the first move, as suggested by some and Greyabark. The first move to make amends MUST come from those that started the negativity and outright slander of crossbows.

As for 3-D shoot gatherings, I can see that they have value to some. Personally I only have been to one 3-D shot and then decided that this is not for me. But that is maybe because I am not an archer. I explain, the only reason I own bows is because I like bowhunting, I don't like archery as a sport.

[351BII]

The same could be said for about 90% of rifle hunters.....I can honestly say that I have seen far more poor shot placement from gun hunters than bow or crossbow hunters.

I agree with this totally. Alot of average gun hunters also think that If you shoot someting with a gun its dead. Ive heard alot of people say that. Owning a crossbow myself I did not use it this year. I bought it this time last year but only practiced about 5 times so I wasnt confident enough even though I was bullseye after bullseye at 50 yds. Your going to see all kinds out there. For instance my neighbour just got his hunting license last july and went out this year with a gun/scope combo he bought never went to the range and went out hunting. I dont think hes seen a deer in real life let alone gut, skin, prep an animal. I dont see a problem with the crossbows them selves its that "extending my season to kill someting" and no intention to get to know your equiptment that is a problem. Just my thought

[troutseeker]

Here is what I use my crossbow for! Only got it this year, practiced with it for one hour on October (very accurate, like a rifle within it's range) and shot this little guy with it in December.

I must add that although the photo does not show it, this deer was full on 3D!

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/PB250275.JPG

[bcfarmer]

whooomph.......the sound of gasoline being thrown on the fire!!:mrgreen:

[Onesock]

TS- I don't know if you are bragging or complaining!! Looks like you missed by about a foot and a half.

[bugler]

whooomph.......the sound of gasoline being thrown on the fire!!:mrgreen:

That's funny right there!!!

[greybark]

That is along the lines I wrote in my first post. It is not up to the crossbow shooter/hunters to make the first move, as suggested by some and Greyabark. The first move to make amends MUST come from those that started the negativity and outright slander of crossbows.

As for 3-D shoot gatherings, I can see that they have value to some. Personally I only have been to one 3-D shot and then decided that this is not for me. But that is maybe because I am not an archer. I explain, the only reason I own bows is because I like bowhunting, I don't like archery as a sport.

:wink: Hey HW , That is a lot of deductions based on ONE 3-D shoot . No wonder they are bss aackwards . :-D

[troutseeker]

whooomph.......the sound of gasoline being thrown on the fire!!:mrgreen:

I was thinking more like jet fuel...:twisted:


TS- I don't know if you are bragging or complaining!! Looks like you missed by about a foot and a half.

Neither, arrow into T1, just like the scope told me it would!

[troutseeker]

And I think they shouldn't have bow only season openings during rifle seasons. Why should some stick and string guy be able to hunt while rifle hunters cannot?? Just because some fellows can't handle the recoil of a modern firearm shouldn't give them special opportunities.


Now that is the most non-sensical reply that has been posted on this whole thread. :confused:

It is borderline stupid and antagonistic. I hope you were being sarcastic canuckshooter, because I think that you're just a wee bit smarter than that. :-|

Please, I believe I have most non-sensical replies on this thread (if not his board)!:-D

But I can certainly see Canuckshooter's point, which I believe was meant to be: Bow shooters who don't like crossbows and do not want them used during archery season but only during rifle season should themselves not be allowed to use bows during gun season!

Or maybe they should embrace their brothers who shoot string instruments (except for banjo's, I draw the line at banjo's) and we could all live happily ever after... Nah, never happen!:mrgreen:

I'm Robin Hood with a scope!

[huntwriter]

:wink: Hey HW , That is a lot of deductions based on ONE 3-D shoot.

I am not against 3-D shoots. I just don't like sports, other than rodeo.

[OOBuck]

I would like to see more crossbow shooters at 3D shoots it would be great. One major PITA is all the traditional guys looking for arrows....... :mrgreen:

[bugler]

Ok Troutseeker I'll take the bait. You have either badly misplaced your shot on that deer or you have demonstrated the ignorance about what you should be trying to do with an arrow that some have alluded to here. Some think that many crossbow users are just this ignorant, I don't think that is necessarily so but you are showing us a prime example. To be fair I also noticed a post in the Hunting Contest Thread where a compound shooter attempted a neck shot and was also successful. I wanted to blast him also but the thread wasn't really the place for it.

A neck shot with an arrow is highly frowned upon among knowledgeable bowhunters, (ill advised with any weapon imo). The only acceptable bow shot on big game is through the chest from broadside or quartered away. There are lots of ways to learn this by reading magazines or taking the Bowhunter Ed course when an opportunity arises. Another way would be to hang out with other bowhunters and attend some 3-D shoots:mrgreen:.

[Ambush]

So you had a broadside deer within bow range and you CHOOSE to shoot it in the neck??? And you practiced for a whole hour.

You could be the poster boy for the P&Y's anti-crossbow campaign!!


Here is what I use my crossbow for! Only got it this year, practiced with it for one hour on October (very accurate, like a rifle within it's range) and shot this little guy with it in December.

I must add that although the photo does not show it, this deer was full on 3D!

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/PB250275.JPG

[ThinAir]

I'm sorry I have to take the bait too....archery tackle is made for broadside- lung/heart shots, not neck shots.

An animal shot in the lungs is a DEAD animal. An animal shot in the neck....not so much:icon_frow

It can be difficult at times to hit the lungs,let alone a walnut sized vertebrae!! And yes, I know there are arteries etc in the neck too- but lets be reasonable.

[J_T]

Onesock, Bugler and Ambush have nailed it. TS, you have a shit load to learn about using a bow to hunt and an arrow to kill. Stick to the rifle.

[huntwriter]

Ok Troutseeker I'll take the bait. You have either badly misplaced your shot on that deer or you have demonstrated the ignorance about what you should be trying to do with an arrow that some have alluded to here. Some think that many crossbow users are just this ignorant, I don't think that is necessarily so but you are showing us a prime example. To be fair I also noticed a post in the Hunting Contest Thread where a compound shooter attempted a neck shot and was also successful. I wanted to blast him also but the thread wasn't really the place for it.

A neck shot with an arrow is highly frowned upon among knowledgeable bowhunters, (ill advised with any weapon imo). The only acceptable bow shot on big game is through the chest from broadside or quartered away. There are lots of ways to learn this by reading magazines or taking the Bowhunter Ed course when an opportunity arises. Another way would be to hang out with other bowhunters and attend some 3-D shoots:mrgreen:.

You would be surprised how many professional bowhunting "experts" take neck shots. If a hunter knows where to aim and is at close range then there is nothing wrong with a well placed neck shot. It kills the deer instantly on the spot. It's not a shot I would take due to lack of practice, but that does not mean that I am going to ridicule another hunter for it without knowing the situation and his/her ability.:wink: Some can do it others can not.

[J_T]

You would be surprised how many professional bowhunting "experts" take neck shots. If a hunter knows where to aim and is at close range then there is nothing wrong with a well placed neck shot. It kills the deer instantly on the spot. It's not a shot I would take due to lack of practice, but that does not mean that I am going to ridicule another hunter for it without knowing the situation and his/her ability.:wink: Some can do it others can not.
A neck shot is a very low percentage shot. Even if, as you say, many professional bowhunting experts might take a neck shot, TS himself said he bought the xbow, practised for an hour and went hunting. Hardly an expert. Which is completely beside the point. HW, I'm afraid if you are going to promote your bowhunting, skills development workshops, you have to take a stand on a low percentage bowhunting shot. The mechanism of killing with an arrow is deadly hemorrhage. Broadside, heart lung. Ambush is exactly right.

[Onesock]

HW- ability doesn't come into taking a head or neck shot with a bow. The the animal only has to move an inch and a neck shot becomes a nightmare. If this is the kind of bullsh!t you peddle at your seminars I am quite surprised you have any participants. Supporting hunters is one thing but condoning this type of shot is ludicrious.

[Ambush]

You would be surprised how many professional bowhunting "experts" take neck shots. If a hunter knows where to aim and is at close range then there is nothing wrong with a well placed neck shot. It kills the deer instantly on the spot. It's not a shot I would take due to lack of practice, but that does not mean that I am going to ridicule another hunter for it without knowing the situation and his/her ability.:wink: Some can do it others can not.
Yes, I would be surprised. I'd like you to name a few of these "experts", because if they are well known in the bowhunting world, I'm sure I've heard of them.
All the hunters I know that are capable of it, are the very ones who would never do it.

Sorry HW, you're just blowing smoke.

[bugler]

You would be surprised how many professional bowhunting "experts" take neck shots. If a hunter knows where to aim and is at close range then there is nothing wrong with a well placed neck shot. It kills the deer instantly on the spot. It's not a shot I would take due to lack of practice, but that does not mean that I am going to ridicule another hunter for it without knowing the situation and his/her ability.:wink: Some can do it others can not.

Yup, I would be very surprised. I have never seen such a thing promoted in bowhunting publications, never read an article where the author tried to take a neck shot. There are undoubtedly some successful bowhunters (doesn't make them "expert") who think it is okay and have pulled it off but it is very low percentage regardless of ability.

Wasn't ridiculing anyone, just pointing out a fact. He either muffed the shot or is ignorant...or, I suppose, indifferent to the consequences of a slight miss.

[huntwriter]

Aren't we a little jumpy this evening.:-D I never said that I endorse or promote a neck shot. Because I don't. I said it is a deadly shot and is doable at close range. That is a far cry form an endorsement.

The great Fred Bear himself took several neck shots and even wrote about it in his book and showed it in one or two of his films.By the way, Fred also found it totally acceptable to take 50 to 70 yard shots. Oh how could he? Didn't he know that this is unethical? :)

Of course not everyone "dares" to write about it publicly or show it on TV, especially not these days where everybody is ready to point fingers at the drop of a hat. The point is is, like it or not, it does happen. Again that does not mean that I endorse such shots, but neither do I get my knickers in a twist without knowing the exact circumstances or simply going by what someone wrote of all places in a forum. Could just as easily be that the poster put the picture up to pull your leg and get you all steamed up. If this is the case he succeeded.:wink:

Onesock, don't worry about participants on my seminars, the numbers look very good.:-D Come to the BC Hunting Show in March and you will see why.:wink:

[greybark]

You would be surprised how many professional bowhunting "experts" take neck shots. If a hunter knows where to aim and is at close range then there is nothing wrong with a well placed neck shot. It kills the deer instantly on the spot. It's not a shot I would take due to lack of practice, but that does not mean that I am going to ridicule another hunter for it without knowing the situation and his/her ability.:wink: Some can do it others can not.

:-D HW , I don`t understand the level of expert you claim to be and post drivel such as this . This is such a contradition to basic common sence .

[troutseeker]

Eh, it's the only shot he gave me! But I am glad to see the ethics police is finally out of the closets... :)

(good thing I don't have a picture of the one I shot in similar fashion with a "real" bow several years ago...).

[greybark]

:-D Hey TS , Only shot he gave you , Then don`t take it .
I think we have a professional troll here....
Cheers

[bugler]

Eh, it's the only shot he gave me! But I am glad to see the ethics police is finally out of the closets... :)

(good thing I don't have a picture of the one I shot in similar fashion with a "real" bow several years ago...).

Next time someone tells me about a deer running around with an arrow sticking through it's neck I am going to give them your number. Your response suggests to me that it is the third thing, indifference.

[Onesock]

I pity the fools.........

[Bow Walker]

Huntwriter - It is no wonder that there are quite a few members of this site that are not fans of the "Othmar Vohringer School of Hunting."

You continually shift from one point of view to another (often contradicting yourself) just to suit the tone of the thread in which you're posting.

You are a "self-style", "self-proclaimed" Bow Hunting Expert. You give "seminars" on the subject, as well as other subjects. You are a "professional lecturer" who receives monetary compensation for his "expertise."

And yet....

...there is always something, some little fact, some little contradiction, something that you have stated previously, that crops up and bites you and your "expert professionalism" right in the butt. I'm not sorry to say that your credibility - at least with myself - is just not believable at all. There are far too many inconsistencies about you and all your writings (here on HBC) that just does not ring true.

There. Got that off my chest. I've been wanting to say that for a long time now.

On the question of shooting deer in the neck with archery gear...I've got a little story of a hunt that myself and my hunting buddy had, one October afternoon.

We were driving back down, off the hill, when we were passing a large patch of ferns. I was glancing over/through the ferns and saw a set of antlers (brown against the green background) sticking up over the ferns about 15 - 20 yards off the road.

"Buck!" I yelled. We stopped, got out of the trick (me with my bow) and tried to get a better look. The buck (a very respectable 3-pointer) was facing us and the ferns were higher than its back - in fact the ferns made it impossible to shoot this deer anywhere but in the neck or right under the chin into its throat.

The deer didn't seem anxious about us being right there, and I was able to get to within 10 yards of him. I was at full draw and holding for about 90 seconds. All the while waiting for him to present his 'boiler room' so I could put an arrow in there. He never did. I couldn't see his chest area at all - even when he turned and bolted up the hillside and out of the area, unscathed.

I purposely passed on the neck/throat shot because I felt (and still do) that it was a very low-percentage shot. I could've put an arrow right in under his chin and smashed his vertebrae quite easily. I know, absolutely, that I would not have missed. Yet I let him walk, or in this case - run.

Am I special? Am I a professional? No, I'm not an "expert" by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not the "ultimate" in ethics either, but I am not sorry that I passed on that shot, even now 2 years later. I do think of myself as a "somewhat experienced" bow hunter, but I know I still have a lot to learn. In fact I learn something new every time I got out into the bush.

[Stéphane]

You would be surprised how many professional bowhunting "experts" take neck shots. If a hunter knows where to aim and is at close range then there is nothing wrong with a well placed neck shot. It kills the deer instantly on the spot. It's not a shot I would take due to lack of practice, but that does not mean that I am going to ridicule another hunter for it without knowing the situation and his/her ability.:wink: Some can do it others can not.

My level of respect for you is dropping by the post in this thread. I thought you were a knowledgeable hunter with a keen eye for finding games. Although the above comment might still be true, you've written some puzzling posts and this one tops them all.

I'm flabbergasted by the amount of people who take pride in risking things that aren't worth doing. Broadside, quarter away seems to be the right choices with archery. Funny that one of the best bow hunter on this site killed a WT at only 12 yard and went for the heart. Not the head, not the neck.

[huntwriter]

I got a good chuckle out of that one. Post something, even in jest, and predictable like clockwork the "ethic police" shows up wagging their fingers, so wrapped up with watching what everybody says and does and yet never realizing that someone has fun with them. :mrgreen: Maybe I should try a picture with of deer tied to a tree and the crossbow hunter aiming at it.:mrgreen:

[ThinAir]

I got a good chuckle out of that one. Post something, even in jest, and predictable like clockwork the "ethic police" shows up wagging their fingers, so wrapped up with watching what everybody says and does and yet never realizing that someone has fun with them. :mrgreen: Maybe I should try a picture with of deer tied to a tree and the crossbow hunter aiming at it.:mrgreen:

Aiming at its neck...:mrgreen:

[huntwriter]

Aiming at its neck...:mrgreen:

:mrgreen: Of course! Where else!!:mrgreen:

[Onesock]

HW- I don't think you will get away that easy. Caught with foot in mouth and trying to back out unnoticed. I don't think so............

[huntwriter]

HW- I don't think you will get away that easy. Caught with foot in mouth and trying to back out unnoticed. I don't think so............

You have been had.:mrgreen: Now you can sulk.:mrgreen:

[Ambush]

You have been had.:mrgreen: Now you can sulk.:mrgreen:

So you are saying that everything you said was just orchestrated BS??
You and TS set this up??

[troutseeker]

I have not set anything up for anyone.

[The Hermit]

You would be surprised how many professional bowhunting "experts" take neck shots. If a hunter knows where to aim and is at close range then there is nothing wrong with a well placed neck shot. It kills the deer instantly on the spot. It's not a shot I would take due to lack of practice, but that does not mean that I am going to ridicule another hunter for it without knowing the situation and his/her ability.:wink: Some can do it others can not.

On behalf of the UBBC and as an International Bowhunter Education Program assistant instructor I what to make it VERY clear that our organizations deem this kind of shot clearly and entirely unethical - period.

Statements and endorsements from supposedly respected personalities in the hunting community that tacitly condone such shots and hunting with admittedly little practice are unconscionable, as new and potential bowhunters may be led to believe that neck shots with any archery equipment are acceptable under any circumstances.

[J_T]

I got a good chuckle out of that one. Post something, even in jest, and predictable like clockwork the "ethic police" shows up wagging their fingers, so wrapped up with watching what everybody says and does and yet never realizing that someone has fun with them. :mrgreen: Maybe I should try a picture with of deer tied to a tree and the crossbow hunter aiming at it.:mrgreen: Actually I don't think this is "the ethics police" stepping up. This is the bowhunting COMMUNITY stepping up and saying that a neck shot is not advisable. EVER. (For what it's worth, neither are 50 yard shots accept in extreme cases)

I've said it before, as bowhunters we look for mentors. It's an apprenticeship. Through the apprenticeship our thoughts and practices congeal and become instinctive. Bowhunting is not a sport, it becomes a way of life.

[troutseeker]

Bowhunting is not a sport, it becomes a way of life.

A way of life?:eek: Kinda extreme... Maybe for some people, but that is a little weird... And you are right, it is not really a sport, more like a hobby, or a tool to use in the sport of hunting.

A bow is a tool, it does not possess transcendental or magical properties.:rolleyes:

Sure the Japanese have some fancy dandy archers, but then again they also have sepuku... :mrgreen:

[OOBuck]

On behalf of the UBBC and as an International Bowhunter Education Program assistant instructor I what to make it VERY clear that our organizations deem this kind of shot clearly and entirely unethical - period.

Statements and endorsements from supposedly respected personalities in the hunting community that tacitly condone such shots and hunting with admittedly little practice are unconscionable, as new and potential bowhunters may be led to believe that neck shots with any archery equipment are acceptable under any circumstances.


Get off your soap box!

[OOBuck]

Actually I don't think this is "the ethics police" stepping up. This is the bowhunting COMMUNITY stepping up and saying that a neck shot is not advisable. EVER. (For what it's worth, neither are 50 yard shots accept in extreme cases)

I've said it before, as bowhunters we look for mentors. It's an apprenticeship. Through the apprenticeship our thoughts and practices congeal and become instinctive. Bowhunting is not a sport, it becomes a way of life.


So where's your Journeymans papers??

[OOBuck]

A way of life?:eek: Kinda extreme... Maybe for some people, but that is a little weird...
A bow is a tool, it does not possess transcendental or magical properties.:rolleyes:



Its called "Tradition-al" holyerthanthou...

[Big Lew]

Huntwriter - It is no wonder that there are quite a few members of this site that are not fans of the "Othmar Vohringer School of Hunting."

You continually shift from one point of view to another (often contradicting yourself) just to suit the tone of the thread in which you're posting.

You are a "self-style", "self-proclaimed" Bow Hunting Expert. You give "seminars" on the subject, as well as other subjects. You are a "professional lecturer" who receives monetary compensation for his "expertise."

And yet....

...there is always something, some little fact, some little contradiction, something that you have stated previously, that crops up and bites you and your "expert professionalism" right in the butt. I'm not sorry to say that your credibility - at least with myself - is just not believable at all. There are far too many inconsistencies about you and all your writings (here on HBC) that just does not ring true.

There. Got that off my chest. I've been wanting to say that for a long time now.

On the question of shooting deer in the neck with archery gear...I've got a little story of a hunt that myself and my hunting buddy had, one October afternoon.

We were driving back down, off the hill, when we were passing a large patch of ferns. I was glancing over/through the ferns and saw a set of antlers (brown against the green background) sticking up over the ferns about 15 - 20 yards off the road.

"Buck!" I yelled. We stopped, got out of the trick (me with my bow) and tried to get a better look. The buck (a very respectable 3-pointer) was facing us and the ferns were higher than its back - in fact the ferns made it impossible to shoot this deer anywhere but in the neck or right under the chin into its throat.

The deer didn't seem anxious about us being right there, and I was able to get to within 10 yards of him. I was at full draw and holding for about 90 seconds. All the while waiting for him to present his 'boiler room' so I could put an arrow in there. He never did. I couldn't see his chest area at all - even when he turned and bolted up the hillside and out of the area, unscathed.

I purposely passed on the neck/throat shot because I felt (and still do) that it was a very low-percentage shot. I could've put an arrow right in under his chin and smashed his vertebrae quite easily. I know, absolutely, that I would not have missed. Yet I let him walk, or in this case - run.

Am I special? Am I a professional? No, I'm not an "expert" by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not the "ultimate" in ethics either, but I am not sorry that I passed on that shot, even now 2 years later. I do think of myself as a "somewhat experienced" bow hunter, but I know I still have a lot to learn. In fact I learn something new every time I got out into the bush.
My thoughts as well, "BowWalker", and stating in his rebuttal, it was just a "set-up", only reinforces your statement. I also have passed on many shots I consider low percentage, or high risk. I didn't shoot a deer this year although I was in range of many, because all I was offered were high risk, low percentage shots.

[bcfarmer]

WOW, 17 pages, with not enough posts on the original posters' question to make up one. It is no wonder we are all fighting a losing battle! :sad::sad:

bcf

[The Hermit]

Get off your soap box!

You are a fine one to talk!!! hahahaha Besides, its my soapbox and I'll stand here on it all day so STFU yourself buddy! LOL ...

There are lots of complaints and derogatory comments about the "ethics police" and "HBC Saints" that I have often smiled at and agreed with but in this case they are surely needed! People may not like cops but most people will acknowledge they are a necessary force to keep the honest honest and to tune up the assholes! If you think neck shots with archery gear are okay then you too need a little humiliation-education!! http://www.members.shaw.ca/btozer/nutkick.gif

[The Hermit]

WOW, 17 pages, with not enough posts on the original posters' question to make up one. It is no wonder we are all fighting a losing battle! :sad::sad:

bcf

I disagree, its important to clarify and educate and threads like this will help to crystalize the issues and lead people to more informed decisions. We don't all have to agree all the time!

[Bow Walker]

Huntwriter - nowhere in your posts is there any indication of them being in jest. There is, however, plenty of indication of your exceptionally high level of BS. Please stop disseminating your drivel. It only points out your short comings.

[Kudu]

What a mess....... It seems like everyone is doing a stack of talking and very few are actually walkin.....

Whats the big deal with Cross bows - Longbows - recurves and compounds?

The people who scoff at the crossbows are plain dumb.

Why don't we take a little walk through the annals of history - lets look at the origins of these formidable weapons then perhaps a few on here may look at things a little differently.

The "yew bow" - the original long bow. Anyone who has ever read Azincourt will quickly realise that the British archer was trained from the tender age of ten to be an archer. By the time he was in his late teens or early twenties, he was a formidable threat to the armies in Europe.

With his yew bow - Goose feather fletched arrows, and metal Bodkin point, he could knock the French royalty of their chargers and on their arses at 70 paces - never mind how good their armour was.

The French in turn had the crossbow with its leather fletched bolts, even the very best could not reach the the British archers - their range was just to short. Having said that - many British knights and footmen fell to the French bolts when the ventured into range.

In North America the First nations did a great job with their bows - not nearly as formidable as the mighty yew bow - but good enough to account for thousands of head of game - not to mention Westerners.

Where I come from - the Bushmen hunt elephant with little bows and even skinnier arrows - they don't rely on power to knock the feet from under the beasts, rather they inject poison via the sharpened reed points on their weapons.

Then you have Genghis khan and his mighty warriors - riding on horse back and sweeping across teh steps of Mongolia.

Lets look at some interesting facts now

The oldest arrow heads were discovered in Africa and were dated to be from before 25,000 BC. Scientists have theorized that the bow was created as an off-shoot of the spear-thrower.

Somewhere around 25,000-18,000 BC, man began to use fire to further harden his stone arrowheads and added feathers to his arrows in order to improve accuracy.

In Italy, a skeleton was found in a burial tomb with a fragment of a flint arrowhead lodged in it's pelvis. It was dated to from around 11,000 BC.

Arrow shafts are found in Germany and were dated to be from 9,000 BC.

Bows found in Denmark are dated to be from 8,000-6,000 BC. They were made from one piece of Yew or Elm.

Drawings from 7500 to 5,000 BC show that the Egyptians used bows for hunting and warfare.

In 1991, the body of a 45-yr. old man was discovered on the present-day border between Italy and Austria and dated to be from 3,300 BC. He was dressed in a leather clothe, a waterproof cloak made of grasses and carried a framed backpack, a utility belt with tools, a quiver of 14 arrows, a knife made from flint and a copper axe. The axe caused much interest as it's age pre-dated the previous estimations of the development of smelting copper by 1000 years. His wooden arrows had flint arrowheads and the quiver included a flap to keep the feathers dry. His body and hair tissues were analyzed and found to contain high amounts of copper and arsenic, by-products of smelting copper ore. He carried arrows of two lengths and it was estimated that he may have traded one of his copper axes for some arrows during his travels.

In approx. 2800 BC, the first composite bow was produced by the Egyptians. It was made from wood, tipped with animal horn and held together with animal sinew and glue. Unstrung, it resembled a "C" shape and would have required 2 people to string it.

The bowstring was made from "catgut" (sheep intestines). The arrows used were extremely light, could be shot 400 yards using the composite bow and would easily penetrate the armor of that time period. The Egyptians used archers on the back of light chariots who were highly trained and skilled and could easily outflank an enemy army with devastating effect.

Literature from China, dated between 1500 and 1027 BC, included the first mention of Crossbows. Chinese nobles attended special schools, where they were taught archery, music, rituals, charioteering, mathematics and writing, between 1200 and 700 BC.

In 250 BC, the Parthians (from what is now Iran and Afghanistan) would battle with bows from horseback. They developed a technique of pretending to flee, while firing arrows back towards the enemy. This could be where the phrase "a Parthian shot" became today's phrase "a parting shot".

The First Emperor of China, Qin Shihuang, was buried in a burial pit in 221 BC. This burial pit included 6000 life-size terracotta figures, many of which carried crossbows.

Sebastian, the commander of a company of Preatorian Guards for the Roman Emperor, Diocletian, was ordered to be bound to a stake and shot to death with arrows when his belief in Christianity was discovered in 288 AD and he refused to renounce his faith. After the deed was done, he was found by a friend to still be alive and was nursed back to health. Later, he proclaimed his faith from the steps of the Emperor's palace and the guards were ordered to beat him to death with clubs and throw his body in the sewer. His body was recovered by friends and buried in the catacombs under the city of Rome. Sebastian came to be known as the Patron Saint of Archers.


Continued below -- // --

[Kudu]

Part 2 //--//

Arrowhead evolved to include the following:

Barbed arrowheads-these would make arrow removal difficult.

Small Triangular tips-used to pierce chain-mail armour.

Half-moot tips-used to cut through the rigging of opposing ships.

In 1208 AD, Temujin became Great Khan of the Mongols, better known as Genghis Khan. The Mongols used composite bows of approx. 70lb. Draw weight and used a thumb ring to release the bowstring. Unarmored Mongol soldiers would were silk under-shirts to minimize injuries inflicted by the arrows of the enemies. The silk fabric would wrap around the arrow head without being cut as the arrow stuck the Mongol soldiers. This would allow the clean removal of the arrows by slowly pulling on the silk fabric, eliminating further damage caused by the barbed arrowheads.


1307 AD--William Tell-William refused to bow towards a hat placed on a pole as a sign of imperial power and was ordered to shoot an apple off of his son's head. (He was known as an expert crossbowman.) He succeeded in shooting the apple, leaving his son untouched. It was also said that he had another crossbow bolt hidden and, if he had failed to shoot the apple and had killed his own son, he would have quickly reloaded in order to kill the official who had ordered him to shoot the apple off of his son's head.


1346 AD-The French army included crossbow men. Their crossbows were fitted with cranks used to draw back the bowstrings. During the Battle of Crecy, Edward III of England lead his army against the French. The French were defeated when the previous day's rain weakened their bowstrings which misfired or snapped completely during battle. The English had kept their bowstrings dry by putting them under their helmets during the rain.


Both crossbows and standard hand-shot bows were used as the most effective battle weapons, until the late 1500's, throughout what is modern day Europe and Asia. In 1520 AD, the musket was invented. In 1545, Roger Ascham wrote the first book written in the English language about archery, called "Toxophilis"(Lover of the Bow).

In 1588 AD, 10,000 soldiers from the English fleet, armed with muskets, defeated the Spanish Armada. The last battle in which English archers were used was 1644 AD.

During the latter half of the 1600's, contests of archery skill came into vogue in England.


In 1872, Ephraim Morton of Plymouth, Massachusetts, USA is granted a patent for his wood handled bow with steel rod limbs.


Archery was included in the Olympic Games in 1904, 1908 and 1920. It was discontinued until it reappeared at the 1972 Olympics.


1934-Year of the first Bow hunting season in the United States, held in the state of Wisconsin.

1937-First use of bow-sights in archery competition.

1939-James Easton experiments with making arrow shafts out of aluminum, rather than wood.

1941-Larry Hughes uses aluminum arrows to win the American National (archery) Championship.

1942-Hoyt Archery co. founded by Earl Hoyt, Jr.

1946-Easton produces it's first trademarked aluminum arrows, the "24 SRT-X".

1951-Max Hamilton introduces "Plastiflech" vanes to replace feathers.

1953-Bear Archery develops and sells the first working recurve bows. Previous bows were straight-limbed longbows.

1956-Hoyt Archery develops the first "Pistol grip" bow handle.

1958-Easton develops the "XX75" aluminum arrow shaft.

1961-Hoyt Archery introduces the "Torque stabilizer".

1966-Easton develops the "X7" aluminum arrow shaft.

1969-Holless Wilber Allen is granted a patent on his invention of the Compound Bow which he designed 3 or 4 years earlier. His original wheels were triangular in shape.

1970-Compound bows and release aids make their national debut in U.S. national archery competition.

1971-Andy Rimo develops the "flipper" rest. Pete Shepley starts PSE archery company. Flex Fletch manufactures it's first soft plastic arrow vanes.

1974-Freddie Troncoso invents the first dual-prong arrow rest.

1982-Cam wheels on compound bows first appear. Previous wheels where perfectly round.

1983-Easton develops the first carbon arrow shaft.

1992-The Olympic torch, in Barcellona, Spain is ignited using a flaming arrow shot by Antonio Rebollo of the Spanish Olympic Team. Matt McPherson founds Matthews Archery Co., manufacturing bows with single-cam technology.

1995-The Compound Bow is included in the World Target Archery Championship competition for the first time


Now what the hell were you all arguing about again?

[Onesock]

Its friggin winter time....................Its not arguing it is called discussion!

[OOBuck]

You are a fine one to talk!!! hahahaha Besides, its my soapbox and I'll stand here on it all day so STFU yourself buddy! LOL ...

There are lots of complaints and derogatory comments about the "ethics police" and "HBC Saints" that I have often smiled at and agreed with but in this case they are surely needed! People may not like cops but most people will acknowledge they are a necessary force to keep the honest honest and to tune up the assholes! If you think neck shots with archery gear are okay then you too need a little humiliation-education!! http://www.members.shaw.ca/btozer/nutkick.gif

I'll kick the f--king thing out from under you then...

So,,, by taking or giving a course this makes you and some of the other holyer than thou journeymen HAHAHA what a joke!! I freakin hate special
interest groups that think the sun shines out their holes it makes me sick!
How long have you been shooting? I guess I be a granfathered journeyman if it went by time.. hmmmm

[Bow Walker]

Nice recitation of 'facts' Kudu. What's the point in your recital again?:confused::)

This thread has certainly digressed from the OP's intention - but that's the way of discussions. They gain a life of their own and change directions, evolving and morphing into something that seems completely off topic.

As Captain Kirk says...


Its friggin winter time....................Its not arguing it is called discussion!

[Bow Walker]

I'll kick the f--king thing out from under you then...

So,,, by taking or giving a course this makes you and some of the other holyer than thou journeymen HAHAHA what a joke!! I freakin hate special
interest groups that think the sun shines out their holes it makes me sick!
How long have you been shooting? I guess I be a granfathered journeyman if it went by time.. hmmmm
Jeez Redneck! Simmer down. Bill likes to spout off on things. Listen or ignore, it's all the same in the end.

A little knowledge about a subject is a dangerous thing when wielded about 'willy-nilly'.:wink:

[newhunterette]

is going back the post number one and try to figure out where this all went sideways, backwards, and along the scariest road to no-where.

[Gateholio]

Kudu

Great to see the history of archery posted up. It demonstrates that crossbows have been around just as long as other forms of bows, and are every bit as legitimate bowhunting equipment as a longbow.

[troutseeker]

Kudu, awesome post on the history of archery! But I think there is a mistake, there is one "n" too many in 'annals"...

[OOBuck]

Jeez Redneck! Simmer down. Bill likes to spout off on things. Listen or ignore, it's all the same in the end.

A little knowledge about a subject is a dangerous thing when wielded about 'willy-nilly'.:wink:


The Hermy knows how to take me. Your right he's one of
those guys that like to hear themselves talk..

Couldn't agree more with lack of knowledge. I liked someones
idea of having to show competency with your weapon prior
to using it. Then all of this would be put to rest, and a lot of long bow users would use crossbows or compounds:mrgreen:

[troutseeker]

I like the idea of showing competency with one's keyboard, it would certainly cut dowon on the post count...

It must be winter!

[OOBuck]

I like the idea of showing competency with one's keyboard, it would certainly cut dowon on the post count...

It must be winter!


Might cut down on speeeling mistakes as well...:mrgreen:

[troutseeker]

Might cut down on speeeling mistakes as well...:mrgreen:

Absodoodly! :-D

[The Hermit]

I'll kick the f--king thing out from under you then...

So,,, by taking or giving a course this makes you and some of the other holyer than thou journeymen HAHAHA what a joke!! I freakin hate special
interest groups that think the sun shines out their holes it makes me sick!
How long have you been shooting? I guess I be a granfathered journeyman if it went by time.. hmmmm

Hey hey hey, I never ever claimed to be a good shot or long time archer or better than anyone else. However, any thinking person will understand that it doesn't take shooting skill or decades of bowhunting experience to see the obvious and to apply common sense. However, as you have made abundantly apparent, it does take a "special" skill to supposedly possess awesome shooting prowess gained from decades of target shooting and still not understand the difference between best practices and unethical behaviour. Practicing accepted bowhunting ethics, and trying to share those ethics with others is a lot different that the bluster and bombastic bullshit that you spout my heathen blood brother!


Jeez Redneck! Simmer down. Bill likes to spout off on things. Listen or ignore, it's all the same in the end.
A little knowledge about a subject is a dangerous thing when wielded about 'willy-nilly'.:wink:


The Hermy knows how to take me. Your right he's one of
those guys that like to hear themselves talk..

Bowwalker - Spout off?? Me?? PA-LEASE!!! We are cut from the same cloth you twit!! :-) You and I are on the same side of this three ring circus - HW was being irresponsible in supporting neck shots... you called him out personally way more than me! Wielding ethics willy nilly? A little knowledge... dude I'm just saying shit when I smells it!!

And Scotty - next time I come to visit you at the shop I might just bring a tape recorder to catch one of your tirades!!! LOL http://www.mutineerz.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_fight.gif

[Gateholio]

Here is what I use my crossbow for! Only got it this year, practiced with it for one hour on October (very accurate, like a rifle within it's range) and shot this little guy with it in December.

I must add that although the photo does not show it, this deer was full on 3D!

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/PB250275.JPG

I'm guessing that deer isn't actually dead?:confused:

[Onesock]

Gatehouse-It would apperar the deer is in fact dead. Thats not the one a person should be concerned with.

[The Hermit]

Hey Kudo - In 1208 AD, Temujin became Great Khan of the Mongols, better known as Genghis Khan.

I recently red the Conn Iggulden Conqueror Series: Wolf of the Plains, Lord of the Bow, and Bones of the Hills. He has a new one out called in the series titled: Empire of Silver. These are terrific reads about the Khan and the conquests of his family! Highly recommend them!

[The Hermit]

Come on Clarke get real... this year while bow hunting one of my partners made a poor shot and hit a deer in the hind quarter. The broahead happened to cut the femoral artery and killed the deer in double quick time. Does that mean that bowhunters should try that shot on purpose? No of course not... neither should we take neck shots! DUH!!!!

[troutseeker]

With that reasonning, I assume that gun hunters should not take neck shots either? Small target, deer can jump and move at any time... Mind you I've seen a few deer that moved and got gutshot by rifle and bow, so in reality there are no absolutes.

I felt confident of the shot I was offered, and the peperoni is great! Would I take that shot again? In a similar situation, you bet! Could it go wrong, sure, but so could any shots taken a game...

[Kudu]

Hey Kudo - In 1208 AD, Temujin became Great Khan of the Mongols, better known as Genghis Khan.

I recently red the Conn Iggulden Conqueror Series: Wolf of the Plains, Lord of the Bow, and Bones of the Hills. He has a new one out called in the series titled: Empire of Silver. These are terrific reads about the Khan and the conquests of his family! Highly recommend them!


Sounds good. I will look out those books - I simply can't read enough books on the subject - archery in all of it's forms absolutely fascinates me.

[GoatGuy]

Come on Clarke get real... this year while bow hunting one of my partners made a poor shot and hit a deer in the hind quarter. The broahead happened to cut the femoral artery and killed the deer in double quick time. Does that mean that bowhunters should try that shot on purpose? No of course not... neither should we take neck shots! DUH!!!!

What was his punishment? :wink:

[J_T]

I'm guessing that deer isn't actually dead?:confused:
Good thing it's dead, cause you wouldn't want it walking around Vancouver Island with a BOLT sticking out of it's neck. It might make the news and then everyone would be screaming poacher.

With that reasonning, I assume that gun hunters should not take neck shots either? Small target, deer can jump and move at any time... Mind you I've seen a few deer that moved and got gutshot by rifle and bow, so in reality there are no absolutes.Troutseeker, it's that sort of understanding (completely ignorant of how a bullet or arrow kill) that supports Greybark's initial post. It isn't just about accuracy. It's about knowing when to shoot and when to let down. it's about spending time with other hunters who might have experience to share. I think there are lots of rifle hunters on here who would suggest boiler room is the shot with a rifle. A rifle is very different weapon and you are simply proving the point that bowhunters have maintained for such a long time.

[Gateholio]

Gatehouse-It would apperar the deer is in fact dead. Thats not the one a person should be concerned with.

You sure it's dead?


Come on Clarke get real... this year while bow hunting one of my partners made a poor shot and hit a deer in the hind quarter. The broahead happened to cut the femoral artery and killed the deer in double quick time. Does that mean that bowhunters should try that shot on purpose? No of course not... neither should we take neck shots! DUH!!!!


What was his punishment? :wink:

:mrgreen::-D




[QTE=J_T;832598]Good thing it's dead, cause you wouldn't want it walking around Vancouver Island with a BOLT sticking out of it's neck. It might make the news and then everyone would be screaming poacher.

You mean the ones that were shot using TARGET points? Or are there some walking around with broadhead points stuck in thier throat?


A rifle is very different weapon and you are simply proving the point that bowhunters have maintained for such a long time.

What point is that?

[bcfarmer]

it's that sort of understanding (completely ignorant of how a bullet or arrow kill) that supports Greybark's initial post.


you are simply proving the point that bowhunters have maintained for such a long time.


:mrgreen::mrgreen:

[The Hermit]

What was his punishment? :wink:

Glad you asked... his punishment was self imposed in that he felt terrible and agonized for days over having made such a shitty shot. To his credit as a result learned a lesson about rushing his shots and the need for regular practice.

Looks to me that some people here who ought to know better look at a picture of a dead deer and think wow great shot! Super! And my fear is that others might see that, read some drivel from a self professed "expert hunter" about archery neck shots being remotely ethical, and following Troutseeker's graphic example believes it is a good idea to go buy a crossbow and with only an hour's practice start flinging bolts at live game!

If Troutseeker actually photoshopped that deer and posted it up just to stir the pot I would be relieved and laugh at the intended humor. I would also thank him for drawing a graphic picture of what pisses the bowhunting community off most about guys that simply grab a crossbow and go hunting!

It isn't about the weapon its about ignorance and ethics!

[troutseeker]

It isn't about the weapon its about ignorance and ethics!

Ah yes, ignorance and ethics. The two things that go hand in hand, and are so often preached by the goodie two shoes on the site...:wink:

[J_T]

What point is that?You're kidding right?

[Onesock]

:cry:Troutseeker...ignorance and ethics. It is apparent that a bow hunter should more of one than the other.In your case you must have the two reversed. It is always better to have more of the ethics part and less of the ignorance part if you are a hunter.

[troutseeker]

:cry:Troutseeker...ignorance and ethics. It is apparent that a bow hunter should more of one than the other.In your case you must have the two reversed. It is always better to have more of the ethics part and less of the ignorance part if you are a hunter.

Nice reply, thank you.:-D

[The Hermit]

Ah yes, ignorance and ethics. The two things that go hand in hand, and are so often preached by the goodie two shoes on the site...:wink:

A hahahaha yeah thats me alright! Your post reminded me of this great song by Dennis Leary... you could the poster boy for this one!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVRRSXebggU&feature=related

[Bow Walker]

Are we pretty much done here?

Anyone have anything pertinent to add?

If not I'll close the thread and anyone with any other ignorant comments can start a new thread....including me.

[GoatGuy]

Glad you asked... his punishment was self imposed in that he felt terrible and agonized for days over having made such a shitty shot. To his credit as a result learned a lesson about rushing his shots and the need for regular practice.

No group lashings? :wink:

[Bow Walker]

Nice - I'm going to close this.