educate me please??

[curt]

Ok so I have been wondering this for many years so anyone that has an idea help me out, first I would like to say dont get the wrong impression I'm not negative and I will take advantage with everyone else but inquiring minds want to know................... Why would the ministry open 4 point bucks or better in the late season during the rut and breeding seaon these are the breeding buck replenishing the herds so why not open 4 point or better in Oct close the big bucks so they can breed and reopen the 3 or less during the rut thats #1???? #2 why would you have cow moose draws open after they have been bred why not open them early and then close the cows once the are pregnant IMO they seem to be doing things ass backwards?? The more big bucks around the more does get bred the more pregnant cows around the more calves get born .......so what am I missing here??
Thanks

[silvicon]

Several factors:
-idiotic "wildlife managemen" by the incompetent gov.
-pressure on above idiotes by the ilks such as bcwf
-"first nations"
-some and/or all of the above.

[Jelvis]

Talk about one point or two max for now about your well written paragraph.
Why b4 or after for cow moose
What about the four point season as is now in reg 3 how good you improve it?
Jel ( Please ) explain in a couple or three sentences on each .. tanks curtness .. curt .. in the Wack

[MuleyMadness]

I think the cow draws are in November because they are much more difficult to hunt in many areas during that time of year...just as the bulls are out more in October, so are the cows, though they of course don't go as stupid, they are too looking to get bred. Come November they are bit harder to locate, at least in my experience. That and that fact that access and hunting is more difficult in November probably keep the success rates pretty low. I know that there is a chance you are taking a pregnant cow if you get the draw, but I'm not sure that is a significant impact on the wildlife population.

As for the bucks, I think that you are off base a bit there. All bucks, including spikes will breed does...and in areas where there are no large, mature bucks (be that 4 point or bigger), the 'teenagers' get their chance with the does still. If the does are receptive, and they will be receptive to many bucks, including small ones (particularly if no large ones are around)and they will get bred...antler size doesn't determine that.

I think your way of thinking, quite frankly, would inadvertantly fall right into the hands of the GOABC who want quality over quantity, because those big boys are much harder to hunt in September and October.

[Fisher-Dude]

Ok so I have been wondering this for many years so anyone that has an idea help me out, first I would like to say dont get the wrong impression I'm not negative and I will take advantage with everyone else but inquiring minds want to know................... Why would the ministry open 4 point bucks or better in the late season during the rut and breeding seaon these are the breeding buck replenishing the herds so why not open 4 point or better in Oct close the big bucks so they can breed and reopen the 3 or less during the rut thats #1???? #2 why would you have cow moose draws open after they have been bred why not open them early and then close the cows once the are pregnant IMO they seem to be doing things ass backwards?? The more big bucks around the more does get bred the more pregnant cows around the more calves get born .......so what am I missing here??
Thanks

Deer - mature bucks are not required for breeding. A 2 point will do the same job as a big 4 point. Genetics are irrespective of a deer's age. Does are not selective when breeding.

Moose - the idea is to give calves more time to learn to be independent if the cow is harvested. A later season gives the calves another month or so under mother's wing.

[curt]

just asking not sure on the deer thing but I know mature cow moose ready to be bred or not will chase off inmature or young bulls. I didnt know muley does had the Surrey way of thinking in them!!!;)

[GoatGuy]

Generally we're trying to achieve 'objectives'.

With MD, they're most susceptible to harvest in the rut, so we protect a large part of the population with a 4 pt regulation to maintain our buck:doe objective of 20:100. October is the easiest time harvest wise to protect bucks as you don't have the rut and particularly snow which can create huge swings in the harvest. Conservation and 'breeding wise' the age of the bucks don't matter and we can bring things down to less than 10:100 and still have everything happen on time. Long story short the 4 pt regulations probably aren't necessary in most parts of the province but it's what we do and it's how we manage for the 20:100 objective.

With moose it varies from place to place. In the big picture we don't really harvest cow moose. Most of the opportunities other than 7a are simply token hunts - they have no impact on the moose and really provide very little value for the hunter.

In places where we have had draws in december it was typically to see if the cows are being bred.

In other spots hunts are in October/December which typically helps align harvest and opportunity up or away from other species/hunts. There is probably some social concern with harvesting cows with calves in September.

Most of this stuff is social, not science based. It's about hunters, the non-hunting public and other namby pamby stuff that most people don't try to or want to measure - they'd just as soon make up their minds first, find like minded individuals to support their ideology and perpetrate their opinions as 'gospel'. It's a long ways from science, usually irrational and often the opposite of what science tells us. You see it here regularly: "all the hunters I talk to".


Edit and Example:

Like Fisher Dude says you need to kill off the mature strong 4 points so the 2 points can do all the breeding....theres more science to come..

[aggiehunter]

Like Fisher Dude says you need to kill off the mature strong 4 points so the 2 points can do all the breeding....theres more science to come..

[Whonnock Boy]

I think you can add this. Younger deer are more inclined to be less elusive in the rut. If you get all the young ones, there will be none left to grow. With moose, I believe that later in the year they are pushed down and into wintering grounds which in my opinion makes it easier for them to be hunted. The leh's are in place to keep the population in check.

[aggiehunter]

Curt...see I told you some science would follow... for we must all agree that a comment like Goatguy's "MD are mose susceptible to harvest during the rut" is more scientific than irrational mamby pamby talk!

[GoatGuy]

Curt...see I told you some science would follow... for we must all agree that a comment like Goatguy's "MD are mose susceptible to harvest during the rut" is more scientific than irrational mamby pamby talk!

Don't take it from me, look at the harvest stats and strategies across NA for mule deer. Heck for that matter it's the same for male hunting of pretty much every ungulate. This is pretty basic stuff.

[dana]

Young bucks are no different that human teenagers. They get so horned up during the rut that they loose their brains. They run too and fro with their tongues hanging out just hoping and praying that they might get laid. And despite what FD says, nope, for the most part, they ain't the ones doing the breeding. The bulk of the breeding is done by the big ol' mature dominate bucks. And yep, antler size does matter. That is what the whole purpose of antlers are, to show a doe that he is healthy and strong and a good sire for her offspring. Most does do in fact choose who breeds them. Lots of science behind that too.
So during the rut, if the young and dumb bucks aren't protected, there will indeed be a high harvest on them. This affects recruitment for your future breeders. The facts are that the bulk of bucks killed during the 4 point or better season aren't the dominate breeder bucks. They are instead the 2, 3, and 4 year olds. They might get a little more tail than the yearlings but for the most part, not much more. But the 4 point count gives them the advantage over a hunter. The hunter has to take his time to count, and sometimes that can be very difficult. Often, that time is all it takes for the buck to CLUE IN and bail, thus elluding the hunter. Therefore, hunter success is a lot lower during 4 point or better seasons compared to Any Buck seasons. Managers use point restrictions to manage overall harvest during a very sensitive time for the deer.
Meanwhile the big ol' breeder bucks, the 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 year or older bucks, are very difficult to harvest. With age comes smarts. And when you think about what they have going against them year round, human hunters are pretty damn easy to avoid. These bucks survive in the lions den, with efficient predators like cougars and wolves hunting for them 24/7. So, when it comes to overall harvest in this province very very few of these true dominate breeder bucks are harvested by human hunters each year.

[curt]

Young bucks are no different that human teenagers. They get so horned up during the rut that they loose their brains. They run too and fro with their tongues hanging out just hoping and praying that they might get laid. And despite what FD says, nope, for the most part, they ain't the ones doing the breeding. The bulk of the breeding is done by the big ol' mature dominate bucks. And yep, antler size does matter. That is what the whole purpose of antlers are, to show a doe that he is healthy and strong and a good sire for her offspring. Most does do in fact choose who breeds them. Lots of science behind that too.
So during the rut, if the young and dumb bucks aren't protected, there will indeed be a high harvest on them. This affects recruitment for your future breeders. The facts are that the bulk of bucks killed during the 4 point or better season aren't the dominate breeder bucks. They are instead the 2, 3, and 4 year olds. They might get a little more tail than the yearlings but for the most part, not much more. But the 4 point count gives them the advantage over a hunter. The hunter has to take his time to count, and sometimes that can be very difficult. Often, that time is all it takes for the buck to CLUE IN and bail, thus elluding the hunter. Therefore, hunter success is a lot lower during 4 point or better seasons compared to Any Buck seasons. Managers use point restrictions to manage overall harvest during a very sensitive time for the deer.
Meanwhile the big ol' breeder bucks, the 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 year or older bucks, are very difficult to harvest. With age comes smarts. And when you think about what they have going against them year round, human hunters are pretty damn easy to avoid. These bucks survive in the lions den, with efficient predators like cougars and wolves hunting for them 24/7. So, when it comes to overall harvest in this province very very few of these true dominate breeder bucks are harvested by human hunters each year.
Thanks Dana and Goat Guy very educated sounding responses, and thats what I was looking for. I agree Dana about the younger bucks not doing the breeding it makes perfect sense. like I said I know with moose a cow will not let a small inmature bull breed her she will chase him off kicking and screaming I have seen it with my own eyes, so I'm not sure why deer elk caribou or anything else would be any different there is pecking order for a reason. Thanks everyone for all for your input I was curious as to what I was going to hear.
CM

[butthead]

thats our gov for you

[Jelvis]

A cow moose needs to be bred her first estrus and then every year after til later in life, she needs a bull to breed her when she hits estrus, the bull must be at least like over 4 years old to qualify for a light heavy weight in the mix. Then a six year old bull walks out and a two year old spike quivers at the end of the moose meadow.
That cow has to be bred or it's dry and my friend that is ok for her in a way but not good losing one baby moose the first time and twins til she reaches old age. But what kind of difference if she's is killed in October or November I don't get your reasoning on this part.

[elkdom]

two bull moose overlooking a willow meadow from a hilltop, observing several very approachable cow moose,,,

the eager young bull turned to the BIG OLD bull and said "lets run down there and breed us a cow" ???

the BIG OLD bull waited a couple minutes, rolled his eyes and replied to the eager young bull " I"M gonna WALK down there ,and breed e'm ALL " :wink:

[GoatGuy]

A cow moose needs to be bred her first estrus and then every year after til later in life, she needs a bull to breed her when she hits estrus, the bull must be at least like over 4 years old to qualify for a light heavy weight in the mix. Then a six year old bull walks out and a two year old spike quivers at the end of the moose meadow.
That cow has to be bred or it's dry and my friend that is ok for her in a way but not good losing one baby moose the first time and twins til she reaches old age. But what kind of difference if she's is killed in October or November I don't get your reasoning on this part.

Cow moose can cycle up to three times, probably more depending on body condition. Don't know where you got the dry thing?

The problem with second estrus calves is the survival rate goes way down, there's probably an increased cost placed on the cow and if the bull:cow ratio is low (<20:100) you'll probably end up with low survival in the bulls.

[GoatGuy]

Thanks Dana and Goat Guy very educated sounding responses, and thats what I was looking for. I agree Dana about the younger bucks not doing the breeding it makes perfect sense. like I said I know with moose a cow will not let a small inmature bull breed her she will chase him off kicking and screaming I have seen it with my own eyes, so I'm not sure why deer elk caribou or anything else would be any different there is pecking order for a reason. Thanks everyone for all for your input I was curious as to what I was going to hear.
CM

Moose are much different than deer and elk.

[boxhitch]

It makes sense that the does will seek out the larger males, thats just good genetic preservation.
But when they are ready they are ready and if the best buck around is a 3 yr 3 pointer, she will take him on. The job gets done. Its not like she chooses to wait til next month or for the maybe big guy to show.

Opening the season is for better hunter opportunity, a good thing when pop. numbers are good.