Hunting Regulations 2012

[Marc]

I just had this sent to me and was asked to post it up so that everyone knew what was going on as the deadline is the 28th of Feb 2011 for any change proposals. If you want to make any changes to the regulations now is the time to contact your Rod and Gun Clubs and voice your opinions.

****PLEASE NOTE- The letter is addressed to Region 8, but it applies to ALL REGIONS****

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/2012_Hunting_Regulation_page_1.jpg

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/2012_Hunting_Regulation_page_2.jpg

[358mag]

Why do we what to change anything ???? seems to be working fine in Region 8 Just a few road-gut pile hunters want to stir the pot and change things .

[No Tag Soup Please]

I vote to get rid of the spike fork moose season. Maybe add 5 or 10 LEH tags for moose instead.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I vote to get rid of the spike fork moose season. Maybe add 5 or 10 LEH tags for moose instead.


What would that accomplish??:?

SSS

[No Tag Soup Please]

What would that accomplish??:?

SSS

I think it would end up with more moose. If you kill all the babies and then draw for 24 or whatever big moose tags then how are you ever going to keep a bull population?

[one-shot-wonder]

I think it would end up with more moose. If you kill all the babies and then draw for 24 or whatever big moose tags then how are you ever going to keep a bull population?

Not all the babies (immature bulls) get shot, or are legal antler configuration.......there is always carry over.

I say leave the immature season, or better yet bring back the former season, reduce a few LEH bull tags and have some antlerless harvest.

[curt]

It would be nice to see region 8 Mule Deer season mirror Region 3 and stay open till Dec 10th. It would be nice to harminize more seasons and spread out the hunting pressure better.

[J_T]

It would be nice to see region 8 Mule Deer season mirror Region 3 and stay open till Dec 10th. It would be nice to harminize more seasons and spread out the hunting pressure better.
I would agree. I'm sure there are areas in the regs that can be fine tuned. While this is acknowledging the process for Reg 8, changes there may impact neighbouring regions.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

It would be nice to see region 8 Mule Deer season mirror Region 3 and stay open till Dec 10th. It would be nice to harminize more seasons and spread out the hunting pressure better.

We can't even get it changed back to Nov 15th like it used to be before the die-off in '96-97'.
Apparently, too many "dumb" mulies in Reg 8.:?

SSS

[Mtn Man]

i agree back to the 15th like it use to be, shorten the anysize buck season back to the first 20 days of oct, can the late youth season, to much abuse,... just keep it at that perhaps a vehicle restriction to say the 5000ft level to be put into effect on the 1st of november to keep people from riding through the alpine during this susceptable time. I know a lot of people don't like vehicle restrictions as do I, but the access to the high country is way to easy, logging companys build highways... then leave them as highways, i would like to see them be forced to seriously deactivate them, not just 2 foot deep water bars. I know all of this perhaps in my perfect world of hunting... oh ya i almost forgot not pickin on cattle farmers here, but do they have to put so many cattle up onto the hills?

[one-shot-wonder]

just keep it at that perhaps a vehicle restriction to say the 5000ft level to be put into effect on the 1st of november to keep people from riding through the alpine during this susceptable time. I know a lot of people don't like vehicle restrictions as do I, but the access to the high country is way to easy, logging companys build highways...

Who hunts the alpine in November?

[coach]

Any chance there might be an opening for wolves? I know it's been discussed at length here on this site. I thought we were close to having them opened this season.

[coach]

i agree back to the 15th like it use to be, shorten the anysize buck season back to the first 20 days of oct, can the late youth season, too much abuse,...

In a region where mule deer close on the 10th of November and re-open for bow hunting on the 25th (presumably to protect all the "dumb" bucks during the rut), the youth hunt during the rut didn't make sense - but that's already been addressed. In 2010, the November 11 to 18 youth season was changed to a Nov 1 to 10 "any buck" youth season. Do you feel that season needs to go?

[hoho]

What would that accomplish??:?

SSS


To avoid a few 3 points and older get rot in the bush.:twisted:

[coach]

To avoid a few 3 points and older get rot in the bush.:twisted:

How is the regulation responsible for this? Nobody wants to see moose illegally shot and left in the bush - but that falls on the hunter, not the regulation. I haven't killed a spike/fork in four years of trying, but it's nice to have the opportunity to hunt moose without an LEH.

[aggiehunter]

Curt...sorry but we have a late bowonly season for Mulies in Region 8 from Nov. 25th to Dec. 10 so that won't work. All the deer hunters I know are quite happy with the exsisting seasons. Mtn Man the late Youth season was canned this year because it was "perceived to be a trophy hunt". Just can't keep everyone happy.

[Gunner]

Curt...sorry but we have a late bowonly season for Mulies in Region 8 from Nov. 25th to Dec. 10 so that won't work. All the deer hunters I know are quite happy with the exsisting seasons. Mtn Man the late Youth season was canned this year because it was "perceived to be a trophy hunt". Just can't keep everyone happy.I'm not happy with the existing Mule deer season.I have yet to see a legitimate reason for closing 4 point Mule deer on November 10th,at least in my area(North Okanagan).15 miles from home in Region 3 they are open til December 10th with no ill effects.I'm told Okanagan 4 points are too "vulnerable".Does that mean they are stupider than the bucks 15 miles from here?:rolleyes: You cannot stockpile deer,the next bad winter will harvest them anyway.And yes we DO need a wolf season in Region 8 the numbers more than warrant it,the decision not to have a season was political,and made by the Minister, not MOE. Gunner

[Gateholio]

I'm not happy with the existing Mule deer season.I have yet to see a legitimate reason for closing 4 point Mule deer on November 10th,at least in my area(North Okanagan).15 miles from home in Region 3 they are open til December 10th with no ill effects.I'm told Okanagan 4 points are too "vulnerable".Does that mean they are stupider than the bucks 15 miles from here?:rolleyes: You cannot stockpile deer,the next bad winter will harvest them anyway.And yes we DO need a wolf season in Region 8 the numbers more than warrant it,the decision not to have a season was political,and made by the Minister, not MOE. Gunner

If that's the case, and it's supported by deer population numbers, you guys should push hard to at least get the season extended to Nov 30, if not to Dec 10.

[BillyBull]

x2 Gunner. I have never like the changes to the Mule deer. Grew up hunting Muley between Westbank and Merritt and miss the days of working the hills for a good buck. I would also like to see them extend the Whitetail season to well into December, these guys have taken over the valley and low lands and given the number of deer (20 to 50) in a day hike in October there should be enough numbers to warrant the extension.

[coach]

I'm not happy with the existing Mule deer season.I have yet to see a legitimate reason for closing 4 point Mule deer on November 10th,at least in my area(North Okanagan).15 miles from home in Region 3 they are open til December 10th with no ill effects.I'm told Okanagan 4 points are too "vulnerable".Does that mean they are stupider than the bucks 15 miles from here?:rolleyes: You cannot stockpile deer,the next bad winter will harvest them anyway.And yes we DO need a wolf season in Region 8 the numbers more than warrant it,the decision not to have a season was political,and made by the Minister, not MOE. Gunner

I agree with you, Gunner. I thought there were plans in place to make seasons more consistent across regions? It's hard to imagine a reason why our Region 8 mule deer season needs to close a month earlier than Region 3. It's even harder to understand the lack of a wolf season when protecting mule deer seems to be so important.

[aggiehunter]

Coach/Gunner....Uhhhhhhh...we have a bowonly season for Mule Deer in Region 8 from Nov. 25th to Dec. 10th....yes BOWONLY....the BCWF has promised in writing to not be intrusive into bowonly seasons....so how would you get around that....and I'm all for more harmonized seasons....how 'bout region 4 for a buddy. Or you could can push to kill Mulies with a GOS till Xmas and then scratch your heads in a few years wondering WTF happened...or drive 15 miles to region 3 and fill yer boots...if ya'can.

[Gunner]

The last 5 years years I have seen lots of wolf tracks in all the traditional mulie wintering areas in northern Region 8 and adjacent areas of Region 3.Their numbers are up because of an increase in moose numbers but they'll take whatever they can pull down and where I'm seeing sign is in mule deer areas.A lot of the deer just move on to really steep side hills to avoid the wolves but the pressure can move them into marginal wintering areas.MOE and the ranchers are on board for a season, so come on Region 8 guys,write your MLA and the Minister.There can't be that many bunnyhuggers in Kelowna! Gunner

[dana]

Aggie,
Easy solution to the issue. 4 point or better season from Nov 1-Dec 10th (aligned with Region 3) and bowseason from Dec 11 to 31st. Make the late season Archery and not crossbow and you have a Win/Win. Lots of northern states have bowseasons that go into Jan. Because bowhunting has such poor success rates, it doesn't hurt your deer pops and it keeps the diehard bowhunters loving it. Or is that too cold for you? I once proposed Aug 15-30th archery seasons for those that compain about sharing their season with the youth hunters and got the response of 'it's too hot. The meat will spoil'. Yet here in BC we are way way cooler than states like AZ, NV and UT that all have the Aug archery deer hunt.
When it boils down to it, we need to start thinking outside the box when it comes to our seasons or else we will see hunter participation continue to fall. Just because you've always hunted Sept 1 or Nov 15 don't mean that is the way it always has to be. If you give a little you might just see that it'll benefit you way more than what you think you are giving up.

[aggiehunter]

Gunner, Brian Harris Bio. Penticton requested solid data on wolf sightings to help bring about a hunt....kills...pic's etc....not hearsay. Don't forget theres a lot of transplanted shrubs in Region 8 so it won't be an easy sell.

[Gunner]

Coach/Gunner....Uhhhhhhh...we have a bowonly season for Mule Deer in Region 8 from Nov. 25th to Dec. 10th....yes BOWONLY....the BCWF has promised in writing to not be intrusive into bowonly seasons....so how would you get around that....and I'm all for more harmonized seasons....how 'bout region 4 for a buddy. Or you could can push to kill Mulies with a GOS till Xmas and then scratch your heads in a few years wondering WTF happened...or drive 15 miles to region 3 and fill yer boots...if ya'can.Personally I don't agree with bow only seasons when it's four points or better.With crossbows allowed I feel you may as well allow rifles.Besides which I don't care to be legislated out of hunting my home territory to please another user group:twisted: I'll be looking into just what exactly the Fed has "promised". By the way Aggiehunter,I have nothing against bowhunters,a couple of buddies bowhunt exclusively.I'm not sure that I consider crossbows bowhunting though.Gunner

[peashooter]

whats the difference bow/crossbow?

are they both not close range weapons?

[dana]

They've now got modern crossbows fine tuned to be efficient to well out beyond 100 yards. It has been the industry responding to hunter's desires to beat the system when it comes to Archery Only seasons. You don't need to be a well practices shooting machine like a true bowhunter. You have a scope and it is no different than shooting a rifle. If you have a late season rut/post rut hunt and you allow these modern crossbows, Aggie then has a point. Tons of hunters will spend the cash, buy a crossbow and you will see large success during a time when muleys are very vulnerable.

[Gunner]

Peashooter,I haven't seen many scopes mounted on bows lately,Aggiehunter I've Emailed Brian quite a few pictures of tracks,he's interested in any sightings,tracks,kills or any other solid evidence.I'd love to take him a body,but I'm not allowed too!We called in a large pack with my Foxpro last year while ice fishing on Sugar lake,and I regularly hear them 3 or 4 times a winter from my house.There were two sets of freshh tracks in the woodlot behind me the last week of whitetail season.They were reported to Brian.Tomorrow night at midnight(if I can stay up that late),I'll tune up the Foxpro off the back porch and see if anything besides coyotes responds. (Besides the neighbours ) Gunner

[peashooter]

maybe we should have a season for the fellas shooting open sights on the rifle too????

[peashooter]

not much different when i spot a herd from 800 yards away with a 30-30 and watch. the next guy with a rem ultra mag takes a poke because his rifle can make it that far.

[Gateholio]

They've now got modern crossbows fine tuned to be efficient to well out beyond 100 yards. .

Same with compounds, though. I was with PG66 at the range last year and he was plunking arrows into a nice tight group at about 90 yards using his new compound. I have no doubt he could have gone back further, except he would have fallen off the cliff. :)

As for the rest, there are optical sights, trigger releases etc etc for use on compounds. Having used modern crossbows fairly recently, they are still much different than using a rifle, even a modern inline muzzleloader.

Although the point is pretty moot for this discussion, as it's very unlikely that the province would disallow crossbows from archery seasons, and rightly so.

[Jagermeister]

Wait a minute!

There seems to be some confusion here. The memo is addressed to "All Region 8 Sportsmen Clubs", but the topic is "Re: Hunting Regulation Proposals for 2012".

This does not just pertain to Region 8.

It pertains to the whole province.

You want a moose season in Region 5, this is the time to get on the bandwagon. You desire other changes in the province, this is the avenue you have to go down.

It appears that Al Springer is a recipient of a copy of the letter from Steve Matthews, Fish and Wildlife Section Head.

Al is most likely Region 8 BCWF representative. The other BCWF regional representatives should be in receipt of a copy of the letter also.

The confusion stems from the fact Al's copy of the letter is being forwarded to the Region 8 clubs making it look like it is just Region 8.

[aggiehunter]

Guys...let's get one thing straight...Xbows are in....forget about it. You keep talking about give and take between the GOS and BOWONLY. As a bowhunter all I have witnessed in our Province is take...and not from the GOS by bowhunters. Granted the bowhunters in BC have been thrown the odd bone....rare....and hard fought for. So I for one am not in a position to keep shifting the BOWONLY seasons away from the more opportune time to hunt until Mid Jan when we all friggin' know that wildlife does deserve a break. However I am a reasonable man...so we could have bowonly for all ungulates in BC from Sept 15th to Nov. 30th and then we'll let you lead chuckers figure out when you wanna go. We should all be thankful for the ridiculously liberal GOS we have now....thankful that our population of hunters falls way below most states and that you don't have a 5month bowonly season with 5 days of rifle....now say THANK YOU OUT LOUD! SERIOUSLY!

[dana]

Gate,I don't think that it is highly unlikely. There are numerous states that are in fact disallowing crossbows in their archery only seasons. As technology changes, so do seasons. If you have to manage animals and don't want over harvest, then there are 3 options. Shut the season down, limit the amount of hunters through LEH or restrict the hunts to low success weapons. A lot of states have even gone further by having low success weapon Limited Entry seasons. Soo, you want to think outside the box and get more hunters hunting without hurting your deer herds, yup, certain weapons might just need to be restricted at certain times of year.

Aggie,
Why can certain areas of the province handle longer seasons with far more pressure than your precious Region 8. Did you know that there are late late bow seasons in other areas of the province? Look at Region 5. You think the deer in Region 3 can't handle the season going till Dec 10th. We have far worse weather than you get and we've had the late season for a good 15 years now. Hasn't hurt our herds one bit. Why bowhunters have to be their own worst enemies is beyond me. You could have such good things if you actually fought for it, but nope, you won't budge and you'll end up having to take your bow out when the rest of us are hunting with any weapon we choose. There will be regionally aligned seasons and if you don't get on board, you will be left behind.

[aliagha]

I vote to get rid of the spike fork moose season. Maybe add 5 or 10 LEH tags for moose instead.


finding a spike-fork bull is like winning a lottery anyways..

[peashooter]

i don't have any fancy figures to throw out there but i'm sure the difference of animals taken with a bow vs crossbow is hardly going to put any species in harms way. generally speaking the bowhunter numbers are low and success is low.

[Gateholio]

Gate,I don't think that it is highly unlikely. There are numerous states that are in fact disallowing crossbows in their archery only seasons. As technology changes, so do seasons. If you have to manage animals and don't want over harvest, then there are 3 options. Shut the season down, limit the amount of hunters through LEH or restrict the hunts to low success weapons. A lot of states have even gone further by having low success weapon Limited Entry seasons. Soo, you want to think outside the box and get more hunters hunting without hurting your deer herds, yup, certain weapons might just need to be restricted at certain times of year.

A.

Probably works fine for those states, but I just don't see it happening in BC. Especially as there is nothing to indicate success rates with a crossbow in BC are no higher than with a compound.

[Gateholio]

Wait a minute!

There seems to be some confusion here. The memo is addressed to "All Region 8 Sportsmen Clubs", but the topic is "Re: Hunting Regulation Proposals for 2012".

This does not just pertain to Region 8.

It pertains to the whole province.

You want a moose season in Region 5, this is the time to get on the bandwagon. You desire other changes in the province, this is the avenue you have to go down.

It appears that Al Springer is a recipient of a copy of the letter from Steve Matthews, Fish and Wildlife Section Head.

Al is most likely Region 8 BCWF representative. The other BCWF regional representatives should be in receipt of a copy of the letter also.

The confusion stems from the fact Al's copy of the letter is being forwarded to the Region 8 clubs making it look like it is just Region 8.


Good point, I will change the title of the thread....

[Stone Sheep Steve]

finding a spike-fork bull is like winning a lottery anyways..

I guess my buddy won the lottery 3 times in 5 yrs:-D.

SSS

[aggiehunter]

Dana, If your saying theres more pressure in Region 5 than 8 you need to do some more research. Maybe look at populations trends in the OK and it's proximity to the big smoke! Did we hijack the thread? THE LETTER IS ADDRESSED TO REGION 8 BUT IF YOU GUYS WANT TO GET YOUR LETTERS INTO STEVE MATTHEWS FOR CHANGES IN REGION 1 I'M SURE HE'll BE HAPPY TO FORWARD THEM.

[horshur]

I agree with you, Gunner. I thought there were plans in place to make seasons more consistent across regions? It's hard to imagine a reason why our Region 8 mule deer season needs to close a month earlier than Region 3. It's even harder to understand the lack of a wolf season when protecting mule deer seems to be so important.

you guys need to look at the other 3 regions

somehow you think they will go with region three when in reality it is the last holdout...think about it?

[Maxx]

I vote to get rid of the spike fork moose season. Maybe add 5 or 10 LEH tags for moose instead.


what would be the point of that? Isn't the moose population increasing, so your chances of seeing a spike fork will go up? All the LEH does is limit hunters, some who enjoy having a moose tag in their pocket just in case they see a forkie.

[coach]

what would be the point of that? Isn't the moose population increasing, so your chances of seeing a spike fork will go up? All the LEH does is limit hunters, some who enjoy having a moose tag in their pocket just in case they see a forkie.

Maxx - we agree on this one. I know the moose population has increased drastically in the area of region 5 where I grew up. It's time to push for more opportunity in that region.

[GoatGuy]

I'm not happy with the existing Mule deer season.I have yet to see a legitimate reason for closing 4 point Mule deer on November 10th,at least in my area(North Okanagan).15 miles from home in Region 3 they are open til December 10th with no ill effects.I'm told Okanagan 4 points are too "vulnerable".Does that mean they are stupider than the bucks 15 miles from here?:rolleyes: You cannot stockpile deer,the next bad winter will harvest them anyway.And yes we DO need a wolf season in Region 8 the numbers more than warrant it,the decision not to have a season was political,and made by the Minister, not MOE. Gunner

Who said you need legitimate reasons for wildlife management? :wink:

You said the word, political.

[GoatGuy]

Wait a minute!

There seems to be some confusion here. The memo is addressed to "All Region 8 Sportsmen Clubs", but the topic is "Re: Hunting Regulation Proposals for 2012".

This does not just pertain to Region 8.

It pertains to the whole province.

You want a moose season in Region 5, this is the time to get on the bandwagon. You desire other changes in the province, this is the avenue you have to go down.

It appears that Al Springer is a recipient of a copy of the letter from Steve Matthews, Fish and Wildlife Section Head.

Al is most likely Region 8 BCWF representative. The other BCWF regional representatives should be in receipt of a copy of the letter also.

The confusion stems from the fact Al's copy of the letter is being forwarded to the Region 8 clubs making it look like it is just Region 8.

This is just for Region 8. All the regions have different consultation formats and timelines.

[GoatGuy]

Aggie,
Why can certain areas of the province handle longer seasons with far more pressure than your precious Region 8. Did you know that there are late late bow seasons in other areas of the province? Look at Region 5. You think the deer in Region 3 can't handle the season going till Dec 10th. We have far worse weather than you get and we've had the late season for a good 15 years now. Hasn't hurt our herds one bit. Why bowhunters have to be their own worst enemies is beyond me. You could have such good things if you actually fought for it, but nope, you won't budge and you'll end up having to take your bow out when the rest of us are hunting with any weapon we choose. There will be regionally aligned seasons and if you don't get on board, you will be left behind.

Definitely not gonna argue with you on any of this stuff but will give you a view on this.

To be honest, at this point, the seasons for mule deer bucks are considered 'aligned'. The start dates in sept, any buck and youth hunt were aligned and the closing dates (or whatever you want to call region 5) were left to 'regions'. It took over two years just to get that done.

Between the mule deer bucks and antlerless LEH, white-tailed antlerless, GOS for antlerless elk in the x zone, WK 6 pt GOS, goats in 4, changes to spike-fork in regions 3 and 8, region 5 fiasco, I think most of the people inside and outside government are feeling a bit burnt.

The only people who still seem to be keen is the 'slaughter' folks in the WK and the people who chirp but don't contribute and don't 'show up'.

[curt]

Curt...sorry but we have a late bowonly season for Mulies in Region 8 from Nov. 25th to Dec. 10 so that won't work. All the deer hunters I know are quite happy with the exsisting seasons. Mtn Man the late Youth season was canned this year because it was "perceived to be a trophy hunt". Just can't keep everyone happy.
Hey A/H I'm a bow hunter as well I've been up there in bow season.... Deer everywhere it's great however there is 16 days between the late bow and the rifle closure???? Region 3 right next door has been able to manage a much later rifle season, I dont see why 8 cant stay open longer even till the 20th!? Personally I think the regions should almost if not exactly mirror eachother we all know there is a huge migration of hunters that takes place the minute region 8 closes to the greener pastures of region 3. So you have twice maybe 3 times the amount of people in region 3 hunting the late season as you would if region 8 was still open, now my way of thinking is how can that be a good thing for region 3? Spread people out spread out the harvest rather than concentrating it??? I may be out to lunch here but to me that makes perfect sense.

[aggiehunter]

Curt...you don't have to point out the time space between the end of rifle in Region 8 and the start of the bowonly for Mulies...something we have been working on for some time. It's also somewhat important to let the locals look after their backyards. All in All the deer hunters in Region 8 have been more than satisfied...so why all the salivating all of sudden...too much WILD TV I gather. If the Mule Deer GOS ended on Oct. 31 there would be the best deer hunting on the planet in BC...all hunters...meat and trophy would be astounded. Goatguy...I express this opinion with no knowledge or studies of any kind...that's my disclaimer.

[curt]

Curt...you don't have to point out the time space between the end of rifle in Region 8 and the start of the bowonly for Mulies...something we have been working on for some time. It's also somewhat important to let the locals look after their backyards. All in All the deer hunters in Region 8 have been more than satisfied...so why all the salivating all of sudden...too much WILD TV I gather. If the Mule Deer GOS ended on Oct. 31 there would be the best deer hunting on the planet in BC...all hunters...meat and trophy would be astounded. Goatguy...I express this opinion with no knowledge or studies of any kind...that's my disclaimer.
Aggie I'm not looking for a fight here at all but honeslty "Locals"???? We are all locals I live in Chilliwack but I have as much right to have input in region 8 or any other region as anyone else!!! As residents/hunters of this PROVINCE we should all have say regardless where you live,we all spend the same on tags and licences. In fact the out of town hunters very likely generate more income to the local economies than the locals, so maybe they should get more say!?!?!? I spend lots of time in region 8 and lots of time in region 3 I'm just an hour down the rd so really what difference does that make. You choose to live in region 8 thats awesome for you but you dont get exclusive rights, you "INTERIOR PEOPLE" come down and fish "my" rivers and take "my" fish but you dont see me laying claim to any of it. Too much wild tv I wish but not happening, my concern is for our seasons in general not just region 8. I still think that seasons should mirror one another to balance hunting pressure!! You cant deny it look back through the posts how many guys posts about heading to region 3 now that 8 is closed, how many region 5 hunters migrated down to 3 when they closed 5 during the muley rut??? It doesnt make sense to me thats all I'm saying I dont claim to know all the answers here. Oddly enough I talked with the senior project officer in charge of the regs this summer if you look back I posted about it. One of the things he claimed they were doing was alining region 3,8 and 4 when it came to mule seasons, I think they may have changed it up some in Oct but not to the extent I understood they were going.

[aggiehunter]

Curt..nor am I attempting to pick a fight...just like I don't come down there and attempt to tell someone how to run the salmon fishery. There are a lot of hard working guys sitting at the Region 8 FHAC...they have worked diligently to see that wildlife is not only hunted but conserved also...that's why we have what we have...I certainly don't mind sharing ideas here but if someone from Pink Mtn wants to tell us how to manage Region 8 wildlife well I'm just gonna have to have a problem with that...I'll just add it to my list of other problems!!!! Happy New Year

[GoatGuy]

Curt...you don't have to point out the time space between the end of rifle in Region 8 and the start of the bowonly for Mulies...something we have been working on for some time. It's also somewhat important to let the locals look after their backyards. All in All the deer hunters in Region 8 have been more than satisfied...so why all the salivating all of sudden...too much WILD TV I gather. If the Mule Deer GOS ended on Oct. 31 there would be the best deer hunting on the planet in BC...all hunters...meat and trophy would be astounded. Goatguy...I express this opinion with no knowledge or studies of any kind...that's my disclaimer.

Too funny.

How do you know the deer hunters in Region 8 have been more than satisfied?


Aggie I'm not looking for a fight here at all but honeslty "Locals"???? We are all locals I live in Chilliwack but I have as much right to have input in region 8 or any other region as anyone else!!! As residents/hunters of this PROVINCE we should all have say regardless where you live,we all spend the same on tags and licences. In fact the out of town hunters very likely generate more income to the local economies than the locals, so maybe they should get more say!?!?!? I spend lots of time in region 8 and lots of time in region 3 I'm just an hour down the rd so really what difference does that make. You choose to live in region 8 thats awesome for you but you dont get exclusive rights, you "INTERIOR PEOPLE" come down and fish "my" rivers and take "my" fish but you dont see me laying claim to any of it. Too much wild tv I wish but not happening, my concern is for our seasons in general not just region 8. I still think that seasons should mirror one another to balance hunting pressure!! You cant deny it look back through the posts how many guys posts about heading to region 3 now that 8 is closed, how many region 5 hunters migrated down to 3 when they closed 5 during the muley rut??? It doesnt make sense to me thats all I'm saying I dont claim to know all the answers here. Oddly enough I talked with the senior project officer in charge of the regs this summer if you look back I posted about it. One of the things he claimed they were doing was alining region 3,8 and 4 when it came to mule seasons, I think they may have changed it up some in Oct but not to the extent I understood they were going.

Good post Curt.

Little bit of logic and a dose of common sense can be dangerous.

[aggiehunter]

Goatguy...how do you know they are not satisfied?

[dana]

Goatguy...how do you know they are not satisfied?

I don't know Aggie, you think the mass amounts of Region 8 hunters hitting Region 3 the day after 8 closes might be some indication that they ain't satisfied???

[aggiehunter]

PS GOATGUY...I'm all about the humour..just rented FUBAR..they're off to Alberta to the rigs to make money and drink more beer!

[dana]

Curt..nor am I attempting to pick a fight...just like I don't come down there and attempt to tell someone how to run the salmon fishery. There are a lot of hard working guys sitting at the Region 8 FHAC...they have worked diligently to see that wildlife is not only hunted but conserved also...that's why we have what we have...I certainly don't mind sharing ideas here but if someone from Pink Mtn wants to tell us how to manage Region 8 wildlife well I'm just gonna have to have a problem with that...I'll just add it to my list of other problems!!!! Happy New Year


So why would someone in Vernon be able to comment about something being done in Princeton? Or why would someone in Kelowna be able to comment about something in Lumby? Your NIMBY comments can be thrown right back at ya. Region 8 is a big region. What makes someone on one end any more able to comment on the other end than someone from another region. Don't you think that someone in Falkland would be more knowledgeable about game in Vernon than someone in Penticton? But by your rationale, he can't comment cause he doesn't live in the geographical boundaries of Region 8, although he's only 5 mins away from that boundary.

[kebes]

I'd also like to see the longer season like region 3. I don't know if I should justify that by saying I'm from the okanagan because that's terrible logic....but I'm from the okanagan.

[aggiehunter]

Dana...Curts from Chilliwack....little bit different than Lumby Vs Penticton don't ya think!!!!!! As for guys going from Region 8 to Region 3 after the Region 8 season closes I'm sure you guys can figure that one out too! And as far as me telling you to close your season earlier than it is....well it just won't happen...

[Fisher-Dude]

Dana...Curts from Chilliwack....little bit different than Lumby Vs Penticton don't ya think!!!!!! As for guys going from Region 8 to Region 3 after the Region 8 season closes I'm sure you guys can figure that one out too! And as far as me telling you to close your season earlier than it is....well it just won't happen...

I remember listening to some guy (tall skinny guy with glasses) from Cawston cry to Brian Harris about "his" mule deer being too vulnerable after November 10 to be hunted, while trying to squash a regulations proposal that would have seen 5 days added to mule deer seasons in areas as far north as Three Valley Gap. That same guy wanted to extend bow only mule deer seasons from Nov 11 - Dec 10 though.

I think he was in it for himself, don't you Aggie? :wink:

[kebes]

What I don't get is why there has to be animosity between bow and rifle hunters. Is bowhunting while other guys are rifle hunting that bad? If there are as many "lazy truck hunters" out there as people on this site sometimes seem to think there are you shouldn't have any problems with it ;)

[358mag]

I don't know Aggie, you think the mass amounts of Region 8 hunters hitting Region 3 the day after 8 closes might be some indication that they ain't satisfied???
Dana very surprised that a great Mule deer hunter like yourshelf hasnt figure it out yet!! Dont you know that after Nov 10 all the Big Rut Crazy Mule deer bucks cross the line and head over to Region 3+4 thats why the MOE cloeses the rifle season on 10 Nov in Region 8 theres no Mulie bucks left in Region 8!!!!!! all we have left here to hunt is them real stuipd Whitetails .:wink:

[palmer]

MOOSE..lets change MOOSE....NO IMM season or LEH...OPEN BULL MOOSE from Oct 20 to 26 in Regions 3,4,5,8 and already open in part of 6. Lets hunt Moose but spread the pressure way out. That gives us an open season in most of the province at that time. Mule should all be on the same dates from 3,4,5,8....again spread the pressure out. Bears put the annual limit back to 5/yr as it was when I was a kid, lets those that want to hunt them have them. Elk should be 6 point across the board for Sept 10 to Oct 20 in 4,8

[dana]

Palmer,
I like your way of thinking!

[palmer]

I watched hunters move across the open seasons this year with Elk. They hunted the Sept Elk opener in 8-1 to 8-14. then they moved here for opening on Sept 25 in 8-15 and then moved to the west Kootenay for Oct 1. I think its great that we have lots to hunt but if we spread the pressure out by having the same season dates, hunters would have to choose and they can't be in all three at the same time......same goes if we opened Moose in 3,4,5,8 and part of 6 at the same time....We all get to hunt and the pressure gets spread and if you find one area too crowded you have plenty of choices......MY 2 Cents

[coach]

I like your thinking too, Palmer.

[358mag]

I watched hunters move across the open seasons this year with Elk. They hunted the Sept Elk opener in 8-1 to 8-14. then they moved here for opening on Sept 25 in 8-15 and then moved to the west Kootenay for Oct 1. I think its great that we have lots to hunt but if we spread the pressure out by having the same season dates, hunters would have to choose and they can't be in all three at the same time......same goes if we opened Moose in 3,4,5,8 and part of 6 at the same time....We all get to hunt and the pressure gets spread and if you find one area too crowded you have plenty of choices......MY 2 Cents
Palmer great idea but this idea has been brought many times at the regulation meetings but so some strange reason the MOE and BCWF dont seem to like .

[Sitkaspruce]

MOOSE..lets change MOOSE....NO IMM season or LEH...OPEN BULL MOOSE from Oct 20 to 26 in Regions 3,4,5,8 and already open in part of 6. Lets hunt Moose but spread the pressure way out. That gives us an open season in most of the province at that time. Mule should all be on the same dates from 3,4,5,8....again spread the pressure out. Bears put the annual limit back to 5/yr as it was when I was a kid, lets those that want to hunt them have them. Elk should be 6 point across the board for Sept 10 to Oct 20 in 4,8

And why not region 7 as well?? Get rid of LEH and the stupid point system and make moose open across the board.

And why only in late Oct, why not Oct 01 to 20, or Sept 10 to 30 or.....heaven forbid, Sept 10 to Oct 31??? The rut will not matter if the seasons were the same and the pressure was spread out.

Cheers

SS

[aggiehunter]

Palmer...totally agree on your opening date suggestions..

[palmer]

Palmer great idea but this idea has been brought many times at the regulation meetings but so some strange reason the MOE and BCWF dont seem to like .

I would think that both these parties would be able to give rational as to why they do not like it. I am no expert but most hunters want two things
1) An open season
2) less hunter pressure and a enjoyable hunt

I would think that making the seasons open and they same dates could do that


Palmer

[palmer]

And why not region 7 as well?? Get rid of LEH and the stupid point system and make moose open across the board.

And why only in late Oct, why not Oct 01 to 20, or Sept 10 to 30 or.....heaven forbid, Sept 10 to Oct 31??? The rut will not matter if the seasons were the same and the pressure was spread out.

Cheers

SS

Your right... lets open up the whole province at the same time....That would get some numbers back into hunting

[kebes]

Can the moose populations in the lower half of the province support all out open season....I feel like that's a little bit liberal no?

[curt]

MOOSE..lets change MOOSE....NO IMM season or LEH...OPEN BULL MOOSE from Oct 20 to 26 in Regions 3,4,5,8 and already open in part of 6. Lets hunt Moose but spread the pressure way out. That gives us an open season in most of the province at that time. Mule should all be on the same dates from 3,4,5,8....again spread the pressure out. Bears put the annual limit back to 5/yr as it was when I was a kid, lets those that want to hunt them have them. Elk should be 6 point across the board for Sept 10 to Oct 20 in 4,8
PALMER now thats what I've been talking about!!! nice vision now lets convince the powers to be I think this stategy would improve the quality of all our hunting adventures!!! :)

[palmer]

It now supports thousands of LEH and an open immy season. You also have some shot and left because of too many points. I think it should be on the table for a trial just like the Whitetail doe season.

[kebes]

I guess bottom line should be, if it's sustainable go for it :)

[palmer]

I think many factors play into these seasons more than just sustainability. Hunters moving around our province from season to season brings in large amounts of money for local communities. I think LEH also works better for outfitters as it allows them to spread out clients over a longer time and get more clients booked. In region 8 LEH for moose runs Oct 1 to Nov 30. So the outfitter can book clients for all of this time for his share of the LEH and not just a one week open season. And no this is not against the outfitters its just a clear fact.

[GoatGuy]

Palmer great idea but this idea has been brought many times at the regulation meetings but so some strange reason the MOE and BCWF dont seem to like .
Which meetings were those?

[35 Whelen]

Small wonder there are few changes when we ask for them.......no one even on this board can agree on what should or shouldn't be done........

[palmer]

Small wonder there are few changes when we ask for them.......no one even on this board can agree on what should or shouldn't be done........

100% agree. We argue about what to hunt and what weapon to use. We in the country complain about the large number of city hunters, but without there numbers hunting in this province would be done. Some want LEH so if drawn the hunt is private and sometimes better success, other want open season and will work hard for there game. While we fight OUR resoures are slowly being given to other groups that are much more organized or well funded. We need to be resident hunters first and leave all the other arguments for behind closed doors. The other groups most laugh as they watch us fight between ourselves while we slowly lose what we have

[358mag]

Which meetings were those?
Must have been the ones you missed :confused:

[aggiehunter]

FisherDude, Must be the wrong guy..tall and skinny...hmmm..your worrying me again..and all bowhunting op's I have fought for are for all bowhunters in the Province...including yourself.

[Gunner]

FisherDude, Must be the wrong guy..tall and skinny...hmmm..your worrying me again..and all bowhunting op's I have fought for are for all bowhunters in the Province...including yourself.While I applaud your fight for bowhunter's op's,in the face of all the opposition we face is it not time to fight for HUNTER'S RIGHTS period.Previous posters are right,"United we stand".....you know the rest.This is directed to everyone, not Aggiehunter in particular as I know he supports his own club,support your local clubs and if you don't belong....join Gunner

[Fisher-Dude]

FisherDude, Must be the wrong guy..tall and skinny...hmmm..your worrying me again..and all bowhunting op's I have fought for are for all bowhunters in the Province...including yourself.

Yeah sure.

[GoatGuy]

Must have been the ones you missed :confused:

Must have been, never heard that before. Which ones have I missed?

[aggiehunter]

FD...is 5 11 210 lbs tall and skinny too you....like I said you worry me...now stick to the topic instead of who may or not be commenting on it...shouldn't someone get banned for constantly attacking the person, their wt and ht and where they might be from...their eyesight and the total improbability that they only work for extended bow opportunities for themselves...cheesh......

[aggiehunter]

Gunner....it is not impossible for bowhunters to stand up for their own rights using their own clubs and organizations...we can only ask for understanding from other groups and clubs. We have asked gov't to let us represent ourselves because it's hard to beleive anyone else will look after the interests of bowhunters....I beleive in a great bowhunting future for BC...for everyone....

[palmer]

Gunner....it is not impossible for bowhunters to stand up for their own rights using their own clubs and organizations...we can only ask for understanding from other groups and clubs. We have asked gov't to let us represent ourselves because it's hard to beleive anyone else will look after the interests of bowhunters....I beleive in a great bowhunting future for BC...for everyone....

I beleive in a great HUNTING future for BC ....whatever weapon you want

[curt]

Dana...Curts from Chilliwack....little bit different than Lumby Vs Penticton don't ya think!!!!!! As for guys going from Region 8 to Region 3 after the Region 8 season closes I'm sure you guys can figure that one out too! And as far as me telling you to close your season earlier than it is....well it just won't happen...
Actually aggie its no different lumby to penticton is probably further than where I live to Princeton where I like to hunt. Guys like you just have the wrong attitudes we are all in this together and your sense of entitlement because you happen to live in a certain area is quite honestly bull sh** you need to accept the fact as a BC resident we are all equal and everyone opinion matters. Obviously guys from PG or where ever likely don't care about region 8 but if they hunt it and like what the region has to offer then what they think and their experiences there are as relative as yours.
In my respectful opinion

[GoatGuy]

Actually aggie its no different lumby to penticton is probably further than where I live to Princeton where I like to hunt. Guys like you just have the wrong attitudes we are all in this together and your sense of entitlement because you happen to live in a certain area is quite honestly bull sh** you need to accept the fact as a BC resident we are all equal and everyone opinion matters. Obviously guys from PG or where ever likely don't care about region 8 but if they hunt it and like what the region has to offer then what they think and their experiences there are as relative as yours.
In my respectful opinion

Too true.

Would rather someone's opinion who hunts in an area for 6 weeks a year as opposed to someone who lives there and wonders around aimlessly for 3 days.

You're posts are refreshing.

[GoatGuy]

Gunner....it is not impossible for bowhunters to stand up for their own rights using their own clubs and organizations...we can only ask for understanding from other groups and clubs. We have asked gov't to let us represent ourselves because it's hard to beleive anyone else will look after the interests of bowhunters....I beleive in a great bowhunting future for BC...for everyone....

Funny, you'd be surprised what other people do for "YOU", particularly when (for multiple reasons) you can't do it for "YOURSELF".

If you really care about bowhunting you better have a heart to heart with yourself and re-evaluate your approach to bowhunting and hunting as a whole.

Not talking about 'we', talking about 'you'.

[coach]

Funny how what started out as an important thread and good discussion about possible Regulation changes for 2012 has deteriorated into a discussion about one hunting method over another and who has the most "right" to speak for the area they live in. Personally, I hunt regions 3, 4 and 8 every year and many years I hunt 5 and 6 as well. When lucky enough to draw an LEH, I also hunt 7. I hunt with a bow and a rifle. I enjoy hunting with my 12 year old daughter as she takes advantage of youth seasons. I'm sure I'm not too different from a lot of guys on this site in regard to hunting many different regions. In my mind, the animals that live in this province are the responsibility of all of us that enjoy the resource - regardless of where we live. Nobody is any more "entitled" than anyone else.

A few years ago, there was great debate in the fishing community about closing the Thompson river to bait fishing. This started with a group of fly fisherman trying to make the river their exclusive playground. Although I fly fish, I also spoon fish and bait fish. I was opposed to the idea of one group having the river closed to those that didn't fish using their method. In recent years, the river has been closed to all steelhead fishing. Regardless of whether this closure is based on science, I'm sure it was easier for the ministry to close the fishery while different groups of fishermen bickered with each other. Although I bow hunt (and it was great to have very little competition during the late bow season), it would be hypocritical to fight for the current bow only season for mule deer in region 8 if the herd can handle an extended rifle season. As it is, I can hunt deer with my bow every day from September 1 to December 20 within an hour of where I live - what more do we need?

It would be nice to see this thread get back on track. There was some really good discussion going on earlier about more consistent seasons across regions. FD and Goat Guy seem to be the most knowledgeable on here about discussions with the ministry. Can you guys add anything to that discussion? Is there a chance of the region 8 mule deer season changing to at least match what happened in region 4 this year (open until Nov 15)? Were the changes to the spike/fork moose season dates successful from a game management standpoint? Is there any chance that we may one day have general open seasons for bull moose anywhere besides 6 and 7?

[curt]

Funny how what started out as an important thread and good discussion about possible Regulation changes for 2012 has deteriorated into a discussion about one hunting method over another and who has the most "right" to speak for the area they live in. Personally, I hunt regions 3, 4 and 8 every year and many years I hunt 5 and 6 as well. When lucky enough to draw an LEH, I also hunt 7. I hunt with a bow and a rifle. I enjoy hunting with my 12 year old daughter as she takes advantage of youth seasons. I'm sure I'm not too different from a lot of guys on this site in regard to hunting many different regions. In my mind, the animals that live in this province are the responsibility of all of us that enjoy the resource - regardless of where we live. Nobody is any more "entitled" than anyone else.

A few years ago, there was great debate in the fishing community about closing the Thompson river to bait fishing. This started with a group of fly fisherman trying to make the river their exclusive playground. Although I fly fish, I also spoon fish and bait fish. I was opposed to the idea of one group having the river closed to those that didn't fish using their method. In recent years, the river has been closed to all steelhead fishing. Regardless of whether this closure is based on science, I'm sure it was easier for the ministry to close the fishery while different groups of fishermen bickered with each other. Although I bow hunt (and it was great to have very little competition during the late bow season), it would be hypocritical to fight for the current bow only season for mule deer in region 8 if the herd can handle an extended rifle season. As it is, I can hunt deer with my bow every day from September 1 to December 20 within an hour of where I live - what more do we need?

It would be nice to see this thread get back on track. There was some really good discussion going on earlier about more consistent seasons across regions. FD and Goat Guy seem to be the most knowledgeable on here about discussions with the ministry. Can you guys add anything to that discussion? Is there a chance of the region 8 mule deer season changing to at least match what happened in region 4 this year (open until Nov 15)? Were the changes to the spike/fork moose season dates successful from a game management standpoint? Is there any chance that we may one day have general open seasons for bull moose anywhere besides 6 and 7?
I could'nt agree more but when somebody jumps on other members about letting the residents look after their own back yards it got me going!!! I was just hoping to bring a few back to the real reality is all. There were some great ideas on here about improving seasons I just hope someone in the right office actually listened to some of us.

[Fisher-Dude]

Coach, we're putting forward a proposal this year to get our 4 point mule deer season back to Nov 15 this year. It used to be any buck all season until Nov 15 (and Nov 30 before that). There's no scientific reason that we can't have 5 days of fail-safe 4 point season added back.

This year, there was ONE weekend in November for mule deer hunters in region 8. For those of us who work, who dream of hunting fir ridges in the snow, with the sights and sounds of mule deer bucks matching wits with us, it was sadly inadequate.

Hopefully, we can get Penticton to listen to us this time.



It remains to be seen whether the S/F moose season change was warranted. The latest moose inventory shows way more moose than we thought we had, but we're below the target of 30:100 bull:cow ratio. Goat Guy and I discussed the 30:100 ratio last night - there are other "values" in that ratio other than conservation, such as "wildlife viewing" opportunities. There's a very adequate sperm supply, as the population is increasing with ratios below 30:100.

But, we expect the MoE will stick with the 30:100, so we're thinking that perhaps some cow/calf LEHs are a start towards proper moose management. This will improve the bull:cow ratio, allow some harvest over age/sex classes like region 7A (THE most productive moose region in BC with a full 52% of the province's moose harvest), allow some compensatory calf harvest, and provide some opportunity to lucky tag holders.

What do you guys think (besides Aggie-no-wanna-see-anyone-else-hunter)?

[aggiehunter]

Wow....you guys better go back and re-read your posts...why in hell's name would the bio in Penticton wanna have people sitting at the FHAC table from Chilliwack and Prince George....he can barely keep up with the local people's requests...so get your proverbial heads out of your rears...cheesh guys. I'm not saying you can't express an opinion on here or better yet write him a letter and tell him you need a longer GOS's cause you just can't a deer with a 70 day GOS with some in the prime rut....not even too mention the bow season to boot...maybe tell him that biologically only having one weekend in Nov should let you hunt longer. Some of you boys are starting to sound like school yard bullies now....and I ain't crying.

[aggiehunter]

Fisher Dude..maybe you can answer this but I doubt it...why would I want longer/better bow seasons for everyone if I didn't wanna see any other hunters...twist!

[aggiehunter]

That will look real good at the table after you successfully punted (robbed) the YOUTH out of their late Mule Deer Season as it was perceived as a trophy hunt and now you want it back....I need to puke now! FD FOR BCWF PRESIDENT OKANAGAN REGION...VOTE NOW!

[Fisher-Dude]

Fisher Dude..maybe you can answer this but I doubt it...why would I want longer/better bow seasons for everyone if I didn't wanna see any other hunters...twist!

Why did you try to shut down the youth season to keep kids with guns out of the bush during the concurrent bow season?

[Fisher-Dude]

That will look real good at the table after you successfully punted (robbed) the YOUTH out of their late Mule Deer Season as it was perceived as a trophy hunt and now you want it back....I need to puke now! FD FOR BCWF PRESIDENT OKANAGAN REGION...VOTE NOW!

Liar. BCWF region 8 voted in favour of keeping the late youth mule deer season.

[aggiehunter]

That will look real good at the table after you successfully punted (robbed) the YOUTH out of their late Mule Deer Season as it was perceived as a trophy hunt and now you want it back....I need to puke now! FD FOR BCWF PRESIDENT OKANAGAN REGION...VOTE NOW!

[kebes]

If it was between the two of you I'd vote FD ;)

[358mag]

If it was between the two of you I'd vote FD ;)
Patrick for President !!!

[aggiehunter]

FD...read the POST...I never said the BCWF...I said YOU...or are YOU really the voice of the BCWF after all...I still think you should be the new OK Region BCWF Pres..you have all the credentials. WEBSITE CHATLINE'S MEAN NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gamebuster]

Coach, we're putting forward a proposal this year to get our 4 point mule deer season back to Nov 15 this year. It used to be any buck all season until Nov 15 (and Nov 30 before that). There's no scientific reason that we can't have 5 days of fail-safe 4 point season added back.

This year, there was ONE weekend in November for mule deer hunters in region 8. For those of us who work, who dream of hunting fir ridges in the snow, with the sights and sounds of mule deer bucks matching wits with us, it was sadly inadequate.

Hopefully, we can get Penticton to listen to us this time.


It remains to be seen whether the S/F moose season change was warranted. The latest moose inventory shows way more moose than we thought we had, but we're below the target of 30:100 bull:cow ratio. Goat Guy and I discussed the 30:100 ratio last night - there are other "values" in that ratio other than conservation, such as "wildlife viewing" opportunities. There's a very adequate sperm supply, as the population is increasing with ratios below 30:100.

But, we expect the MoE will stick with the 30:100, so we're thinking that perhaps some cow/calf LEHs are a start towards proper moose management. This will improve the bull:cow ratio, allow some harvest over age/sex classes like region 7A (THE most productive moose region in BC with a full 52% of the province's moose harvest), allow some compensatory calf harvest, and provide some opportunity to lucky tag holders.

What do you guys think (besides Aggie-no-wanna-see-anyone-else-hunter)?

why only 5 more days? you guys need to push for more than that to ease some pressure on your neighbor...leaving only one region open (3) through november is not sound management when there's lots of hunters looking for a place to hunt muleys during that time. Do you know what the buck numbers are like in muley surveys in that region these days?

[358mag]

This year, there was ONE weekend in November for mule deer hunters in region 8. For those of us who work, who dream of hunting fir ridges in the snow, with the sights and sounds of mule deer bucks matching wits with us, it was sadly inadequate.
Come on now F-D tell the truth ,its more like a extra weekend or 2 for you road hunters to get out and drive up + down logging roads in your nice warm truck with a hot extra double-double on you cup holder hoping to find a rutted out Mulie buck standing on the side of the road !!!

[358mag]

:twisted:This year, there was ONE weekend in November for mule deer hunters in region 8. For those of us who work, who dream of hunting fir ridges in the snow, with the sights and sounds of mule deer bucks matching wits with us, it was sadly inadequate.
Come on now F-D tell the truth ,its more like a extra weekend or 2 for you road hunters to get out and drive up + down logging roads in your nice warm truck with a hot extra double-double on you cup holder hoping to find a rutted out Mulie buck standing on the side of the road !!!:wink:

[TyTy]

3-15, 3-16 (west side of the fraser) have 4 point only seasons in sept and Nov. I think the black tail genetics are more infulential here than mule deer. I would like to see any buck all season in these units.

Not sure what the populations are here but I would assume the limiting factor is suitable winter range.

[coach]

Coach, we're putting forward a proposal this year to get our 4 point mule deer season back to Nov 15 this year. It used to be any buck all season until Nov 15 (and Nov 30 before that). There's no scientific reason that we can't have 5 days of fail-safe 4 point season added back.

This year, there was ONE weekend in November for mule deer hunters in region 8. For those of us who work, who dream of hunting fir ridges in the snow, with the sights and sounds of mule deer bucks matching wits with us, it was sadly inadequate.

Hopefully, we can get Penticton to listen to us this time.



It remains to be seen whether the S/F moose season change was warranted. The latest moose inventory shows way more moose than we thought we had, but we're below the target of 30:100 bull:cow ratio. Goat Guy and I discussed the 30:100 ratio last night - there are other "values" in that ratio other than conservation, such as "wildlife viewing" opportunities. There's a very adequate sperm supply, as the population is increasing with ratios below 30:100.

But, we expect the MoE will stick with the 30:100, so we're thinking that perhaps some cow/calf LEHs are a start towards proper moose management. This will improve the bull:cow ratio, allow some harvest over age/sex classes like region 7A (THE most productive moose region in BC with a full 52% of the province's moose harvest), allow some compensatory calf harvest, and provide some opportunity to lucky tag holders.

What do you guys think (besides Aggie-no-wanna-see-anyone-else-hunter)?


Thanks, FD, for the info and for attempting to get this thread back on track.

Aggie - are you planning to add anything intelligent to this conversation? You might have things to contribute, but so far all you've done is derail things..:razz:


Based on my experience and on discussions I have had with other hunters in Region 8, I am in agreement that the mule deer population should be able to withstand 5 extra days of hunting. As well, aligning the closing date for four point season with Region 4 makes sense in terms of spreading out hunting pressure.

It's great to hear that the moose population is continuing to grow. Hopefully, through sound management we will see increased opportunities in the near future. Personally, I felt chances of finding a spike/fork improved with the later closing date this year. Unfortunately, I didn't connect and my moose tag is once again being added to a bowl of soup. :???:

A big issue I've noticed in our region centers around "urban deer". The number of animals killed by vehicles every year throughout our region is huge - not to mention the toll they take on peoples yards and gardens. I spoke with a CO a year ago who told me that these deer are becoming aggressive toward people and pets. I'm not sure what solutions might be available to control then numbers of these animals. Are there any plans or discussions taking place on this issue?

Wolves - any insight into whether they might open in Region 8?

[coach]

Actually aggie its no different lumby to penticton is probably further than where I live to Princeton where I like to hunt. Guys like you just have the wrong attitudes we are all in this together and your sense of entitlement because you happen to live in a certain area is quite honestly bull sh** you need to accept the fact as a BC resident we are all equal and everyone opinion matters. Obviously guys from PG or where ever likely don't care about region 8 but if they hunt it and like what the region has to offer then what they think and their experiences there are as relative as yours.
In my respectful opinion

Very well said, Curt!

[Fisher-Dude]

Thanks, FD, for the info and for attempting to get this thread back on track.

Aggie - are you planning to add anything intelligent to this conversation? You might have things to contribute, but so far all you've done is derail things..:razz:


Based on my experience and on discussions I have had with other hunters in Region 8, I am in agreement that the mule deer population should be able to withstand 5 extra days of hunting. As well, aligning the closing date for four point season with Region 4 makes sense in terms of spreading out hunting pressure.

It's great to hear that the moose population is continuing to grow. Hopefully, through sound management we will see increased opportunities in the near future. Personally, I felt chances of finding a spike/fork improved with the later closing date this year. Unfortunately, I didn't connect and my moose tag is once again being added to a bowl of soup. :???:

A big issue I've noticed in our region centers around "urban deer". The number of animals killed by vehicles every year throughout our region is huge - not to mention the toll they take on peoples yards and gardens. I spoke with a CO a year ago who told me that these deer are becoming aggressive toward people and pets. I'm not sure what solutions might be available to control then numbers of these animals. Are there any plans or discussions taking place on this issue?

Wolves - any insight into whether they might open in Region 8?

It will be interesting to get the 2010 harvest stats on moose this year. I don't believe the cutback in the season was necessary, but it was lobbied for by the outfitters and MoE bought the "anecdotal evidence." The MoE also said that we were shooting more and more S/Fs and they didn't feel it comfortable with the harvest level. I say if we're able to shoot more moose, it's because there are more moose to shoot (there aren't more moose hunters) and it shows the season is working. But what do I know? :wink:

Haven't heard of anything in the works for the urban deer issue. The laws in Kelowna are ridiculous about discharge of firearms and bows, so most people don't bother to jump through all the hoops to hunt in the city limits.

Brian H says he will put the wolf proposal in this year again. I'll give him full marks for trying for the past few years to get a season here. It dies on the minister's desk, from such things as "election years" and "show me a huntable population of 100 wolves" when wolves are nearly impossible to inventory.

Brian has been collecting as many sightings and as much bona fide evidence as he can to further the case. Hunters can send a quick email to Murray Coell and Tom Ethier to tell them that they believe their hunting opportunities are being severely affected by the growing wolf population in region 8 - CC your MLA too.

[Fisher-Dude]

why only 5 more days? you guys need to push for more than that to ease some pressure on your neighbor...leaving only one region open (3) through november is not sound management when there's lots of hunters looking for a place to hunt muleys during that time. Do you know what the buck numbers are like in muley surveys in that region these days?

I agree it could be open longer in region 8, and it would be good to ease the migration of hunters to region 3 on Nov 11. But, we have to manage our expectations because we know how tough it is to get just 5 days when mouthpieces like aggiehunter stand up and oppose everything we've put forward to create a bit more opportunity for resident hunters.

There are some deer survey numbers coming forward in the next few weeks that will provide some info for region 8, but harvest stats show the populations to be very strong as days per kill are at pre-98 die off levels. Even the bio says we're "as good as the heydays of the early 90s" with mule deer populations. I don't get survey numbers for region 3 - maybe Goat Guy has them.

[GoatGuy]

Wow....you guys better go back and re-read your posts...why in hell's name would the bio in Penticton wanna have people sitting at the FHAC table from Chilliwack and Prince George....he can barely keep up with the local people's requests...so get your proverbial heads out of your rears...cheesh guys. I'm not saying you can't express an opinion on here or better yet write him a letter and tell him you need a longer GOS's cause you just can't a deer with a 70 day GOS with some in the prime rut....not even too mention the bow season to boot...maybe tell him that biologically only having one weekend in Nov should let you hunt longer. Some of you boys are starting to sound like school yard bullies now....and I ain't crying.

No one said consultation had to occur at an 'fhac table'? These advisory committees are only a very small part of a big picture - more of a formality really. There are several different ways to look for feedback, the best of which do not occur in a public setting and due to bias do not necessarily occur face-to-face.


Typically a longer season spreads the hunters and hunting pressure out temporally and can also have the same effect spatially. It can offer more perceived opportunity which increases participation and can increase harvest which are typically good things for hunters and wildlife in the long run, so long as it's sustainable. The goal is to harvest them and eat them, right?

Lastly it can be used to reduce pressure in other areas to avoid widespread increases in restrictions.

From a hunter and wildlife standpoint these all seem to be good things, right?


It is funny that you use 'you can't get a deer in 70 days of GOS' so why would you need more, when you're constantly pushing for more bow opportunities. Kinda shot yourself in the foot - just saying.

[GoatGuy]

Fisher Dude..maybe you can answer this but I doubt it...why would I want longer/better bow seasons for everyone if I didn't wanna see any other hunters...twist!

You mean the anti-crossbow program, push for a bow tag, mandatory education? :neutral: Or bagging on new bowhunters for the shots they take instead of trying to help them? The motivations seem to be more about 'you' then about bowhunting.

In any case I don't think it matters, there's plenty of people on board looking forward. JT seems to have things pointed in the right direction and has a pretty good view of the big picture. It's refreshing.



That will look real good at the table after you successfully punted (robbed) the YOUTH out of their late Mule Deer Season as it was perceived as a trophy hunt and now you want it back....I need to puke now!!

The removal of the youth hunt was not a BCWF initiative, the introduction of the season however was. The reports from the COS were kids and dads looking for any buck, lots of opportunities - great feedback.

The perceived trophy hunt came from somewhere else?
Lemme see if I got it here.


In our area a lot of the kids are turning into trophy hunters. They hold off during the early season and wait for the B & Cer Mulie from Nov. 11-18th. Another topic I guess. Some of the kids have shot big bucks right off the main road. What is gonna happen to those same kids when they are thrust into the GOS and are not successfull?? We make things pretty easy for them nowadays so they don't have to work as hard. When the Good Ol boys squeezed this hunt onto the BOWONLY season we were choked.

Thanks.

[Fisher-Dude]

:lol::lol::lol:

Now that right there is some funny shit, GG.

[nano]

The removal of the youth hunt was not a BCWF initiative, the introduction of the season however was. The reports from the COS were kids and dads looking for any buck, lots of opportunities - great feedback.



The sept youth season has made it possibly for my brother, dad and myself to get out and hunt before school starts and thus giving us a better opportunity at taking a buck. Taking opportunities like this away will make it harder for kids and there families to get out hunting before school starts.

Nano

[coach]

The sept youth season has made it possibly for my brother, dad and myself to get out and hunt before school starts and thus giving us a better opportunity at taking a buck. Taking opportunities like this away will make it harder for kids and there families to get out hunting before school starts.

Nano

Nano,

The September youth season For mule deer was increased to include the entire month of September in region 8. With October being open for "any buck" and the first ten days of November open again for youth season, the opportunity has never been better. The youth season that has been cancelled was the Nov 11-18.

[nano]

I understand Coach, I was just commenting on how youth season's make it possibly for youths like myself to beable to hunt more. By canceling the Nov 11-18 you are taking away opportunities thus deterring youths from hunting later in the year.

Nano

[gibblewabble]

Goatguy...how do you know they are not satisfied?
Hey Aggie, I live in Region 8 and I'm not satisfied with the closure dates for mulies and I also go to region 3 when our season closes.......do I count?

[Whonnock Boy]

When this thread was first started I thought that comments or concerns were going to be based on animal numbers, not on personal agendas. Boy, was I wrong. I believe that every comment about this topic should be made about sustainability or enhancement, not "I only got one weekend to hunt, yadda, yadda, yadda". Is it not in all of our own best interests that this should be the case?

When the regulations come out for the upcoming season I study them like they are the SAT's. Not that I ever did an SAT, but you get my point.:) I plan my hunts accordingly. What it is, is what it is. Last week the lotto max was 50 million. I did not win. Well, they should have another draw, make that 50 more draws. Actually make it as many draws as you have to until I win. That type of thinking is just absurd, but you get my point.

At the end of the day, knowledge, sustainability, and enhancement should dictate the season. If you want to complain about what you were able to do and not do, start a new thread in the "whine of the day", "crossbow vs. compound", "gun vs. bow", or "who do you think you are making comments about the region I live in when you live in another" part of this forum.

Ooops, I guess I should have posted this in the "whine of the day" section. My bad.

Have a nice day. :)

[peashooter]

When this thread was first started I thought that comments or concerns were going to be based on animal numbers, not on personal agendas. Boy, was I wrong. I believe that every comment about this topic should be made about sustainability or enhancement, not "I only got one weekend to hunt, yadda, yadda, yadda". Is it not in all of our own best interests that this should be the case?

When the regulations come out for the upcoming season I study them like they are the SAT's. Not that I ever did an SAT, but you get my point.:) I plan my hunts accordingly. What it is, is what it is. Last week the lotto max was 50 million. I did not win. Well, they should have another draw, make that 50 more draws. Actually make it as many draws as you have to until I win. That type of thinking is just absurd, but you get my point.

At the end of the day, knowledge, sustainability, and enhancement should dictate the season. If you want to complain about what you were able to do and not do, start a new thread in the "whine of the day", "crossbow vs. compound", "gun vs. bow", or "who do you think you are making comments about the region I live in when you live in another" part of this forum.

Ooops, I guess I should have posted this in the "whine of the day" section. My bad.

Have a nice day. :)

This is the silliest thing I have read on hbc in a while.

[aggiehunter]

My only job on this website CHATLINE is to point out the obvious and stir the shit...yes that's why I'm on here. So the BCWF opposed cancelling the late Youth Bow Only and that is admirable..too bad they lost the ball on that one as I had seen some kids shooting great bucks and the jealously of it got to the guys at the table. It was probably a better recruitment tool then the early Youth season. So I guess you can blame the GOABC for that one ,maybe even the biologist for being conservative..oh damn who are you gonna blame anyway...wasn't me.... but instead of GG & FD bringing a motion back to re-instate the late Mule Deer Youth hunt they stand there with their hands out....more for me please

[coach]

My only job on this website CHATLINE is to point out the obvious and stir the shit...yes that's why I'm on here. So the BCWF opposed cancelling the late Youth Bow Only and that is admirable..too bad they lost the ball on that one as I had seen some kids shooting great bucks and the jealously of it got to the guys at the table. It was probably a better recruitment tool then the early Youth season. So I guess you can blame the GOABC for that one ,maybe even the biologist for being conservative..oh damn who are you gonna blame anyway...wasn't me.... but instead of GG & FD bringing a motion back to re-instate the late Mule Deer Youth hunt they stand there with their hands out....more for me please

Are you ever going to let this go? There's guys here that would like to talk about 2012 regulations. Quite frankly, most of us are tired of your personal issues. I believe you have something to contribute to the conversation, but so far you haven't done a very good job.

[aggiehunter]

Coach....Ok I'll let it go.

[J_T]

Thanks Aggie. I wasn't sure what to call it, but it smelled. Whatever it was you were beating I'm sure it's dead.

You made your point though and it is something for all of us to keep in mind.

[curt]

Are you ever going to let this go? There's guys here that would like to talk about 2012 regulations. Quite frankly, most of us are tired of your personal issues. I believe you have something to contribute to the conversation, but so far you haven't done a very good job.

So back to the original question, my vote is still increase the late mule season to match or very closely match region 3,4,5!!! I have yet to see any solid info for not having region 8 open longer other than a very conservative opinion or mind set from the regional bio in region 8. In fact I personally think of the 3 regions i mentioned region 5 has the most reasonable compromise. Region 5 closes for 11 days in Nov opens back up for the last 10days then closes and opens for bow in Dec, everyone's interests are met, seems reasonable to me.

[coach]

So back to the original question, my vote is still increase the late mule season to match or very closely match region 3,4,5!!! I have yet to see any solid info for not having region 8 open longer other than a very conservative opinion or mind set from the regional bio in region 8. In fact I personally think of the 3 regions i mentioned region 5 has the most reasonable compromise. Region 5 closes for 11 days in Nov opens back up for the last 10days then closes and opens for bow in Dec, everyone's interests are met, seems reasonable to me.

Sounds reasonable Curt, but, do we need to compromise? The changes in Region 5 came as quite a shock. Not everyone agreed with them. Is there a buck to doe ratio problem in region 8? Is the population growing, shrinking or stable?

[curt]

Sounds reasonable Curt, but, do we need to compromise? The changes in Region 5 came as quite a shock. Not everyone agreed with them. Is there a buck to doe ratio problem in region 8? Is the population growing, shrinking or stable?
Hey buddy I'm with you i choose for no comprimise if it is possible but it is currently the best option as far as days of hunting when comparing region 5 to 8. Which brings up another valid point apparently there is issue with the ratio in 5 yet the season is still longer than region 8 where the deer pop seems to be quite stable......makes a guy wonder WTF!!!

[GoatGuy]

Sounds reasonable Curt, but, do we need to compromise? The changes in Region 5 came as quite a shock. Not everyone agreed with them. Is there a buck to doe ratio problem in region 8? Is the population growing, shrinking or stable?

Buck:doe ratio will be low in 8-15, the rest will be good. Population is stable-increasing, good recruitment for most of the areas flown.


Region 5 wasn't all that much of a shock when you look at the history of management over there. It was more of the fact that people (including most of the retired MoE biologists) got fed up with what was going on and had gone on. Politics at its finest.

[coach]

Hey buddy I'm with you i choose for no comprimise if it is possible but it is currently the best option as far as days of hunting when comparing region 5 to 8. Which brings up another valid point apparently there is issue with the ratio in 5 yet the season is still longer than region 8 where the deer pop seems to be quite stable......makes a guy wonder WTF!!!

I agree with you there. I grew up in region 5 and used to venture back there on an annual basis to take advantage of the "any buck" season that went to the 19th of November and then hunt the four point season that started on the 20th - with the possibility of taking one deer in each season. Maybe the change was just a shock to me, since it put a damper on my plans. If the new changes are necessary to help balance the buck:doe ratio and maintain the health of the deer population, I'm all for it. If region 8 adopted that model, I would be fine with that too. I guess I'd just like to hear more from the experts. GoatGuy, over to you...:)

[Elk-Aholic]

Time to think outside the box as some have stated and probably raise more s**t but what the heck, might as well jump on that bandwaggon: Curious why we already have 90-100+ day seasons for certain species and want to make it even longer? haha, jk, better not go there!

Wolves, yes open it up. No shortage of them moving in, hopfully it won't end at the Minister's desk year after year. And yes, info has been sent to the needed groups. One season that should be top priority as once wolves get established......well.....just look at Yellowstone now!

[GoatGuy]

I agree with you there. I grew up in region 5 and used to venture back there on an annual basis to take advantage of the "any buck" season that went to the 19th of November and then hunt the four point season that started on the 20th - with the possibility of taking one deer in each season. Maybe the change was just a shock to me, since it put a damper on my plans. If the new changes are necessary to help balance the buck:doe ratio and maintain the health of the deer population, I'm all for it. If region 8 adopted that model, I would be fine with that too. I guess I'd just like to hear more from the experts. GoatGuy, over to you...:)

With the current moose hunting opportunities (ie no moose hunting opportunities in Region 5) and few wt deer in Region 5, proximity to the LM, Region 8 does see higher hunter densities and harvest than Region 5. The wildlife and hunting regulations are much more attractive for out of region hunters and we have a significant number of hunters who live in Region 8 given the size of the region.

The tough thing with making all the seasons the same is that if we're managing to a 'minimum' of 20 buck:100 does that means that all the seasons will be based on the areas that see the highest pressure and harvest. If we're using an area like 815 as our barometer things are gonna be pretty scarce in terms of opportunity. Much shorter seasons and you will end up with areas that have very high buck:doe ratios which are good for the guys who want to shoot big bucks, but it leaves a pile of 'meat on the table' so to speak. We see this with moose hunting, particulary in places like the northern half of 7b with the 10 pts, tri-palm, two pts. You also see it in parts of the EK as the access is so varied you end up with bull:cow ratios that fluctuate from 20:100 to 35 or probably 40:100 which means you lose a lot of potential hunter opportunity. I'd hate to think what the bull:cow ratios are for elk up the Kechika.

At the other end of the spectrum you'll also cross a threshold where reducing the season does not reduce the harvest but only results in more 'crowding'. Usually what follows that is LEH. It's kinda what happened with moose in the 80s. When you don't have a co-ordinated approach across regions and managers doing whatever they want hunters start bouncing around following remaining opportunities and things get messy.

It is good to try to spread things out with aligning the seasons, but sometimes it's better to make some areas with more critters more attractive to hunters as well.

With that said it certainly wouldn't hurt to add 5 or more days in November in Region 8. I think Dana has brought this up quite a few times but one other season that I've never understood is the move to 4 pts in september, it really doesn't make sense. All you'd be doing is spreading the harvest out instead of focusing most of it around Oct long weekend.

In Region 5 the second buck harvest was insignificant. Reducing the bag limit to one was just more politics. The point of the changes in seasons was to reduce the number of resident hunters going up there to hunt and harvest. In ALL other regions of the province we are fortunate as we can hunt and harvest multiple species, or, at least, more than one mule deer to fill the freezer.

When you look at the regulatory reform for simplification/harmonization/opportunity the only reason I can think of the last 10 days of the season was maintained was for combo cougar/deer hunts for outfitters. Originally that was supposed to be canceled as well but somehow things didn't shake out that way. :confused:

[GoatGuy]

why only 5 more days? you guys need to push for more than that to ease some pressure on your neighbor...leaving only one region open (3) through november is not sound management when there's lots of hunters looking for a place to hunt muleys during that time. Do you know what the buck numbers are like in muley surveys in that region these days?

They did the burned country in Region 3 (after the season closed) which is high sightability, easy access, heavily hunted, heavily harvested, longest season in the province and they're gonna end up with around 25 bucks:100 does which is great!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well above the provinicial minimum of 20:100 and way above ratios required for conservation.

[Alec]

Game managment in the Peace River region tried to 'maximize' the number of ungulates. Then they had a real winter and wanted everyone to come up there and shoot one of the skeletons that were wandering in the valley bottoms. We need to keep the populations to match the Feb/March food supply. Don't shorten the seasons without proof that it is required.

[Blueberries]

seems to be working fine in Region 8 Just a few road-gut pile hunters want to stir the pot and change things .

[panama]

Liked to see region for mule deer back to 4 spike or better, not a month of spike or better in october, mule deer are having a hard enough time and now they put the slaughter to them.

[NaStY]

Liked to see region for mule deer back to 4 spike or better, not a month of spike or better in october, mule deer are having a hard enough time and now they put the slaughter to them.

Not sure where your talking about but im pretty sure most if not all regions can support an any buck season.

[kebes]

Liked to see region for mule deer back to 4 spike or better, not a month of spike or better in october, mule deer are having a hard enough time and now they put the slaughter to them.

rofl. This is what happens when hockey season ends.

[Fisher-Dude]

Liked to see region for mule deer back to 4 spike or better, not a month of spike or better in october, mule deer are having a hard enough time and now they put the slaughter to them.

Name one scientific study that supports what you are saying.

Mule deer population numbers will not be affected by male harvest only unless buck:doe ratios fall lower than 5:100. The R4 inventories are well above that and within provincial targets at >20:100.

You could shoot no mule deer and still have the same numbers as if you'd hunted them with elk and WT deer and forest ingrowth limiting the carrying capacity of the habitat.

[panama]

it was region 4 i meant, and the mule deer around here cant support a any buck season, every year, we start seeing less mule deer in areas that they would be spotted all the time, and now the past year with the anybuck season the mule deer were slaughtered, All's i was saying was that it be nice if they changed it back to the way it was and give them deer time to grow, becasue anyway you look at it there's less mule deer every year.

[Gunner]

it was region 4 i meant, and the mule deer around here cant support a any buck season, every year, we start seeing less mule deer in areas that they would be spotted all the time, and now the past year with the anybuck season the mule deer were slaughtered, All's i was saying was that it be nice if they changed it back to the way it was and give them deer time to grow, becasue anyway you look at it there's less mule deer every year.
Not in my area of Region 8.This spring I have seen more mulies in better shape than I have seen in 12 years in spite of an increasing wolf population.Most of the does were still with twin fawns from last spring.THe MUs in this area could easily stand an extended 4 point season(within reason).There may be other MUs in Region 8 that cannot stand a longer season but I doubt it,the population is stable or increasing.Where I live,roadhunters don't harvest many 4 points!:mrgreen: Gunner

[Gunner]

seems to be working fine in Region 8 Just a few road-gut pile hunters want to stir the pot and change things .
Another brilliant post,you have quite a future in front of you!Welcome to HBC. Gunner

[Fisher-Dude]

it was region 4 i meant, and the mule deer around here cant support a any buck season, every year, we start seeing less mule deer in areas that they would be spotted all the time, and now the past year with the anybuck season the mule deer were slaughtered, All's i was saying was that it be nice if they changed it back to the way it was and give them deer time to grow, becasue anyway you look at it there's less mule deer every year.

I was talking about region 4. Buck harvest does NOT affect mule deer numbers until ratios fall below 5:100. There was no "slaughter" of mule deer in the region 4 any buck season.

There's no sperm supply issue in region 4. Go volunteer to work on some mule deer winter range and shoot a whitetail doe if you want to help mule deer numbers. Hunting any buck will make zero difference to population levels.

[NaStY]

it was region 4 i meant, and the mule deer around here cant support a any buck season, every year, we start seeing less mule deer in areas that they would be spotted all the time, and now the past year with the anybuck season the mule deer were slaughtered, All's i was saying was that it be nice if they changed it back to the way it was and give them deer time to grow, becasue anyway you look at it there's less mule deer every year.

Your probably not seeing that many animals due to having more pressure in the areas you hunt?

[Seeadler]

it was region 4 i meant, and the mule deer around here cant support a any buck season, every year, we start seeing less mule deer in areas that they would be spotted all the time, and now the past year with the anybuck season the mule deer were slaughtered, All's i was saying was that it be nice if they changed it back to the way it was and give them deer time to grow, becasue anyway you look at it there's less mule deer every year.

Let's not forget that the last couple Novembers have been warm, a lot a lot of activity would have been at night. There is no season on does and hasn't been since the 90's. So what would the any buck season have to do with fewer does around? And if you are hunting the rut, where the does are, the bucks will be close by...

Who slaughtered the deer? I don't know anybody that shot an "any buck" the last two years. And these aren't trophy hunters, they have no problem shooting little whitetails.

What the any buck season may have done is pushed the does away from the roads. They aren't stupid.

[meat eater]

i agree with a previous comment about reg 8-3 reg's aligning better. I ALSO WOULD LIKE TO SEE COYOTES OPEN ALL YEAR LONG!! EVERYWHERE!!LOL

[Jelvis]

Ministry of Natural Resources Operations (MoNRO) From MOE to M N R O. I like it.
FHAC -- Fishing and Hunting Advisory Committee -- FHAC -- Good one
Jel .. some new ones to note .. MNRO and FHAC .................................................. .....up beat and dynamic

[Piperdown]

I have a question so fire away folks. Why is it everyone wants the regs and openings made to match. To me it seems differant areas landscapes etc. are to be managed to each individual areas needs, not peoples holidays. How the hell can you say a mountianous area should have the same openings as a grassland area, northern verses southern, east verses west etc. Just wondering?

[curt]

Harminizing season's will help balance hunting pressure, two totally different geographic area's will understandably have different needs or requirments. Generally speaking seasons in neighboring MU's with very much the same herds and landscapes have little reason to not have the same openings. I'll use the same example i have in the past why would western portions of region 8 close a month earlier than region 3 landscape is generally the same. All the region 8 hunters hop next door literally and hunt region 3 the same things happens just north with region 5 hunters they drive down 30 minutes and join the crowds... So region 5 is closed 8 is closed with 3 stuck dead in the middle!?!? How can that benefit region 3?? Its no different than region 6 having a 7 days open moose season with 5 and 7A right next door closed, have you ever hunted that season??? I have it's freaking NUTS any hunter in this province without an LEH will be heading to region 6 if they want a moose hunting pressure was insane guys down every rd I was on and behind every damn tree I was running into guys walking in the bush how can that benefit region 6 herds???

[6616]

While I generally agree with you and support harmonization in the majority of cases we have to remember there are two sides to the harmonization sword. If we have the same regulations over wide areas the regulations need to be conservative enough to protect the most vulnerable populations within the area which would possibly mean lost hunting opportunites in the areas where the populations are stronger or less vulnerable. That might mean that the R3 mule deer season might have to close earlier rather than lengthening the R8 or R5 seasons.

If we really need to have harmonized season openings and closings we may need to have different antler point restrictions, access management areas, or some other method of mitigating potential over-harvest levels in the weaker areas.

Having said that I certainly agree with you regarding the politics in game management today. Different regions seem to have totally different philosophies regarding management strategies and none of them seem willing to compromise which leads to a whole social/political mess in wildlife management in BC today. Headquarters probably should dictate over-arching policy and ensure that it is followed in all regions and not circumvented by regional policies.

[bowhunterbruce]

i agree with a previous comment about reg 8-3 reg's aligning better. I ALSO WOULD LIKE TO SEE COYOTES OPEN ALL YEAR LONG!! EVERYWHERE!!LOL

x2 but also add wolfs and no bag limits to the both of them

[curt]

I dont disagree with you for the most part and managing and maintaining viable herd levels is the key.. I think doing that shouldnt always mean looking at closing season's first, this is my point. It always appears to be the knee jerk reaction "Close it" they should be looking at different ways to increase opening and allocating more time. The 1 issue I see under the current stategy is viable area's like region 3 for MD and 6 for Moose will eventually have to be shut early or restricted more because with few other options the constant heavier pressure will reduce those populations!?!?

[SHAKER]

I've been hesitant to post my opinions on the MD issue's but here we go. I appoligise in advance for anyone whom I might piss off with this. I definatly would love to see the Mule Deer season go a little longer.... aligning with region 3 I believe is a little too big of a step at this time but maybe it isn't?

I get a little frusterated with some of the local voice on the topic though, the "Not in my back yard" attitude is very present. I've talked to lots of people regarding this and have had some pretty heated discusion regarding. Either I've havent' put enough time into to warrant an opinion or words from long time people the area who'm don't harvest by choice and would like to keep it that way. I'm sorry but "if" the season was open a little later, yes some more deer are going to get harvested and I'm sorry but it might not be by "you".

Bottom line you allowed 1 MD in the region..... your choice if you want to pull the trigger (or release the string- didn't want to leave you guys out).

The same guys the burn their tag at the end of the current season will probably be the same guys burning it if the season was longer too. Some of which who have pull in the comunity and can easily influnce people, havn't harvest a MD in many years. (by choice)

The "dink'n" is getting done on the Doe's with myself and other noticing a majority of them with twin fawns. So lets not hamper ourselves and NO the sky is not falling.

With all due respect I appoligise again to those I might have pissed off.

[Glenny]

What would that accomplish??:?

SSS

Region 3 getting ass raped even more than it is now.

[curt]

"If we have the same regulations over wide areas the regulations need to be conservative enough to protect the most vulnerable populations within the area which would possibly mean lost hunting opportunites in the areas where the populations are stronger or less vulnerable. That might mean that the R3 mule deer season might have to close earlier rather than lengthening the R8 or R5 seasons."
Unfortunately this makes the most sense of anything, and working for the government and knowing how they operate I could see this happen!? Exactly the opposite of what some are trying to achieve.

[GoatGuy]

I've been hesitant to post my opinions on the MD issue's but here we go. I appoligise in advance for anyone whom I might piss off with this. I definatly would love to see the Mule Deer season go a little longer.... aligning with region 3 I believe is a little too big of a step at this time but maybe it isn't?

I get a little frusterated with some of the local voice on the topic though, the "Not in my back yard" attitude is very present. I've talked to lots of people regarding this and have had some pretty heated discusion regarding. Either I've havent' put enough time into to warrant an opinion or words from long time people the area who'm don't harvest by choice and would like to keep it that way. I'm sorry but "if" the season was open a little later, yes some more deer are going to get harvested and I'm sorry but it might not be by "you".

Bottom line you allowed 1 MD in the region..... your choice if you want to pull the trigger (or release the string- didn't want to leave you guys out).

The same guys the burn their tag at the end of the current season will probably be the same guys burning it if the season was longer too. Some of which who have pull in the comunity and can easily influnce people, havn't harvest a MD in many years. (by choice)

The "dink'n" is getting done on the Doe's with myself and other noticing a majority of them with twin fawns. So lets not hamper ourselves and NO the sky is not falling.

With all due respect I appoligise again to those I might have pissed off.

hahaha.

Would you like to be a human shield?

[curt]

I've been hesitant to post my opinions on the MD issue's but here we go. I appoligise in advance for anyone whom I might piss off with this. I definatly would love to see the Mule Deer season go a little longer.... aligning with region 3 I believe is a little too big of a step at this time but maybe it isn't?

I get a little frusterated with some of the local voice on the topic though, the "Not in my back yard" attitude is very present. I've talked to lots of people regarding this and have had some pretty heated discusion regarding. Either I've havent' put enough time into to warrant an opinion or words from long time people the area who'm don't harvest by choice and would like to keep it that way. I'm sorry but "if" the season was open a little later, yes some more deer are going to get harvested and I'm sorry but it might not be by "you".

Bottom line you allowed 1 MD in the region..... your choice if you want to pull the trigger (or release the string- didn't want to leave you guys out).

The same guys the burn their tag at the end of the current season will probably be the same guys burning it if the season was longer too. Some of which who have pull in the comunity and can easily influnce people, havn't harvest a MD in many years. (by choice)

The "dink'n" is getting done on the Doe's with myself and other noticing a majority of them with twin fawns. So lets not hamper ourselves and NO the sky is not falling.

With all due respect I appoligise again to those I might have pissed off.

Thats a pretty good post, I liked it thanks!! however without some really good logic and proof you wont convince me that harminizing the 2 regions would be a catastrophic failure, I just dont get it. The same antler restriction, geographically the same country its right freaking there, it's not like we are talking about Fort Nelson to Vernon? I'm curious why would you think that mirroring 3 couldnt be done I'm just picking your brain?? Here's something I just thought of although I'm not a huge fan of LEH usually onced imposed never removed but they could ease into harminizing to monitor the effects on potentially sensitive area's with an LEH in the later season's?? Like I said not a huge fan but they could give a few hundred animals away at the very least knowing full well 100% harvest is damn near impossible, and start with that? thought's, comments, concerns?

[SHAKER]

Thats a pretty good post, I liked it thanks!! however without some really good logic and proof you wont convince me that harminizing the 2 regions would be a catastrophic failure, I just dont get it. The same antler restriction, geographically the same country its right freaking there, it's not like we are talking about Fort Nelson to Vernon? I'm curious why would you think that mirroring 3 couldnt be done I'm just picking your brain?? Here's something I just thought of although I'm not a huge fan of LEH usually onced imposed never removed but they could ease into harminizing to monitor the effects on potentially sensitive area's with an LEH in the later season's?? Like I said not a huge fan but they could give a few hundred animals away at the very least knowing full well 100% harvest is damn near impossible, and start with that? thought's, comments, concerns?

I'm with ya on that..... I'm not a great guy at debating topics. I don't believe it would be a failure either. Maybe I'm being on the lean side with the baby steps approch but even that went over like a lead balloon with some locals.

As far as being a being a human shield there Goat, I think I've been pounded enough on regulations meetings to bow out the powers that be... I've seem to have lost some of my willingness to even bother anymore.

[triggr31]

I would like to see the mule deer go to 4 point only and get rid of the any size completely it has devastated our mature mule deer . I have been keeping in close contact with all kinds of hunters who chase big Muley bucks and the local taxidermists and you'll find they all have the same opinion . I've been hiking pretty hard all through the winter and there are not too many areas with a healthy mature buck count .

[Fisher-Dude]

I would like to see the mule deer go to 4 point only and get rid of the any size completely it has devastated our mature mule deer . I have been keeping in close contact with all kinds of hunters who chase big Muley bucks and the local taxidermists and you'll find they all have the same opinion . I've been hiking pretty hard all through the winter and there are not too many areas with a healthy mature buck count .


All the counts are well over the 20:100 minimum ratio. The any buck season has been in place for decades, and has nothing to do with your inability to shoot a deer. There won't be one "extra" mule deer with a 4 point only season - science proves your opinion 100% wrong.

All those "big mature mule deer bucks" from the "old days" were shot in an any buck season that was a full 3 to 4 months long.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I would like to see the mule deer go to 4 point only and get rid of the any size completely it has devastated our mature mule deer . I have been keeping in close contact with all kinds of hunters who chase big Muley bucks and the local taxidermists and you'll find they all have the same opinion . I've been hiking pretty hard all through the winter and there are not too many areas with a healthy mature buck count .

Some years are tough. Some yrs are not. 2010 was a banner yr for big muley bucks in Reg 8. Pretty hard to believe all the big bucks disappeared in one yr:confused:.

Hmmmm...buddy has seen pics of 7 or 8 local bucks taken in 2011 over 200". Tough yr? :confused:

SSS

[Livewire322]

There are deer out there you just need to get out of the usual areas to find them... That being said there definitely arent as many deer as there was back in my grandfathers time, but thats our own fault.

[bridger]

I would like to see the mule deer go to 4 point only and get rid of the any size completely it has devastated our mature mule deer . I have been keeping in close contact with all kinds of hunters who chase big Muley bucks and the local taxidermists and you'll find they all have the same opinion . I've been hiking pretty hard all through the winter and there are not too many areas with a healthy mature buck count .


We had a four point only reg in the peace for 20yrs. Initially it worked well with lots of good mature 4points harvested, but near the end you couldn't find a mature 4 point. In fact it got so bad that we kept the four point only rule but changed the bag limit to 1 buck every two years.this at a time when mule deer populations were at an all time high in the peace. Then teamed the winter of 2006/2007 when we lost fifty percent of the population then went to an any buck season and an open antler less season. Now mulies are shall I say less than abundant and the whitetail season has been expanded to allow the mulies to recover. Be careful what you ask for!

[boxhitch]

I've been hiking pretty hard all through the winter and there are not too many areas with a healthy mature buck count .but there are some areas with a good count ? Thats encouraging in itself. Tells me you have actually been into some good habitat.
How does one determine what a healthy mature buck looks like at this time, sans antlers ?

[Fisher-Dude]

I would like to see the mule deer go to 4 point only and get rid of the any size completely it has devastated our mature mule deer . I have been keeping in close contact with all kinds of hunters who chase big Muley bucks and the local taxidermists and you'll find they all have the same opinion . I've been hiking pretty hard all through the winter and there are not too many areas with a healthy mature buck count .


But, but, but...



wow the muleys are moving i seen at least 80-90 deer in eight hours of hunting !!!

[dana]

All the mature bucks were abducted by aliens last year. They will send them back bigger this year.

[goinghunting]

I was talking about region 4. Buck harvest does NOT affect mule deer numbers until ratios fall below 5:100. There was no "slaughter" of mule deer in the region 4 any buck season.

There's no sperm supply issue in region 4. Go volunteer to work on some mule deer winter range and shoot a whitetail doe if you want to help mule deer numbers. Hunting any buck will make zero difference to population levels.

Maybe he's not talking about general population levels! Our mature buck population in region 4 is extremely low right now and if you want to increase hunter numbers you'd better have a few mature bucks kicking around to keep people interested. Even if our only goal is to fill the freezer, chasin babies gets pretty boring after a while! I fully agree with panama we need this any buck season in region 4 to disappear before there's not any mature bucks around. I know the any buck season is not the whole problem behind our declining mule deer population but its a good place to start!

[goinghunting]

Let's not forget that the last couple Novembers have been warm, a lot a lot of activity would have been at night. There is no season on does and hasn't been since the 90's. So what would the any buck season have to do with fewer does around? And if you are hunting the rut, where the does are, the bucks will be close by...

Who slaughtered the deer? I don't know anybody that shot an "any buck" the last two years. And these aren't trophy hunters, they have no problem shooting little whitetails.


What the any buck season may have done is pushed the does away from the roads. They aren't stupid.

You don't get out much if you don't know anybody that shot an "any buck" in the last 2 seasons!

[NaStY]

I have a hard time understanding what a 4pt or better season will do for our mature deer population other than more mature bucks being harvested.

[goinghunting]

I have a hard time understanding what a 4pt or better season will do for our mature deer population other than more mature bucks being harvested.


Thats the point I'm getting at, sure would be nice for people to be harvesting mature bucks rather then babies.

[NaStY]

Thats the point I'm getting at, sure would be nice for people to be harvesting mature bucks rather then babies.

Maybe im not asking the question the right way.

How would killing more mature bucks "help" the mature buck population?

Also what are you referring to "babies".

[goinghunting]

Maybe im not asking the question the right way.

How would killing more mature bucks "help" the mature buck population?

Also what are you referring to "babies".

killing more mature bucks wont help us have more mature bucks but letting bucks grow to a slightly older age class before they are able to be harvested will allow these deer to mature and grow smarter. Then possably a few more bucks will be able to reach maturity, probably not a whole lot more but at least a few more. I think you would keep alot of hunters happy if they had more opportunitys to harvest older bucks rather then babies (1 1/2 year old deer).

And like I said there are alot more issues surrounding our mule deer problems in region 4 but this might be a bit of a start and seems to be a hot topic.

[NaStY]

The only thing a 4pt season will do is increase buck to doe ratio which can have more of an neg effect.

Having too many animals in the winter range can also have a more neg effect than any buck season.

[Fisher-Dude]

killing more mature bucks wont help us have more mature bucks but letting bucks grow to a slightly older age class before they are able to be harvested will allow these deer to mature and grow smarter. Then possably a few more bucks will be able to reach maturity, probably not a whole lot more but at least a few more. I think you would keep alot of hunters happy if they had more opportunitys to harvest older bucks rather then babies (1 1/2 year old deer).

And like I said there are alot more issues surrounding our mule deer problems in region 4 but this might be a bit of a start and seems to be a hot topic.


Actually, there are more mature bucks in a deer population when harvest is spread across all age/sex classes than there is when antler point restrictions are in place.

That's the science of deer management. Science trumps rhetoric every time.

[goinghunting]

Actually, there are more mature bucks in a deer population when harvest is spread across all age/sex classes than there is when antler point restrictions are in place.

That's the science of deer management. Science trumps rhetoric every time.

You might be right but science sure isn't always! Science cannot control all contributing factors, maybe the area's that this research has been done on has a far bigger deer population to start with or maybe less predators, more wintering grounds and so on..... what I do know for sure is that mule deer numbers in some parts of region 4 are at all time lows and big bucks being harvested are even less. Killing young bucks that don't have any witts about them isn't helping the situation, neither are wolves, other predators, quads or ease of access to the high country. So how does science suggest we fix our deer numbers?

And to Nasty I agree to many animals using wintering grounds is another problem but our winters have been so mild for the fast few years most of our deer aren't even being pushed down to traditional wintering grounds and to many deer is definetly not the issue. We not only need more mature bucks, we need more deer period. I was only commenting on the 4 pt or better season because of the need to increase hunter numbers comment and opening the flood gates to shoot every dink that stands in the middle of the road isn't gonna get people hooked, having a chance at a quality buck and seeing some deer numbers on a hunt might have people willing to jump through all the new legislative hoops and pay the big gas money to go hunting.

[Fisher-Dude]

I was only commenting on the 4 pt or better season because of the need to increase hunter numbers comment and opening the flood gates to shoot every dink that stands in the middle of the road isn't gonna get people hooked, having a chance at a quality buck and seeing some deer numbers on a hunt might have people willing to jump through all the new legislative hoops and pay the big gas money to go hunting.

Oddly, all the research into hunter motivations in this province state the exact opposite of what you're saying.

Hunter motivations rank "just finding a legal animal" as a top priority.

Hunter motivations rank "antler restrictions" as a top deterrent.

80% of hunters are firstly meat hunters. 17% are selective, then meat hunters. Only 3% are trophy hunters.




7. Opportunity and Enjoyment

Hunting opportunities are more restricted now than ever in the past. Tighter restrictions
on land access, increased private land and new restrictions within municipal boundaries
and regional districts have all reduced hunting opportunity. Wildlife management plans
designed to produce quality animals at the expense of quantity have further reduced
hunting opportunity, especially for novice hunters. The decline of hunting opportunities
close to Greater Vancouver and Greater Victoria has had a profound negative impact on
participation and recruitment. Some game species, such as Canada geese, have very
high population levels; yet hunting opportunities are limited in some areas because of
private land issues or local restrictions. Such limited hunting opportunity sometimes

arises even in areas where farmers would welcome a reduction in animals because they
are agricultural pests.



4. Optimize Hunting Opportunity and Make Hunting More Fun

In order to be attractive, especially to young people, hunting must be fun. Older hunters
may have other motivations such as tradition, hunting for food, stress relief, etc., but
fun and success are vital motivators for young hunters. Early success is a major factor in
“hooking“ people, especially the young, on hunting. The following recommendations
address this goal.
In many regions, deer populations are in good condition and does are especially abundant.
Antlerless hunts for mule deer and white-tailed deer for hunters under the age of 19
and hunters participating in their first season should be considered wherever possible. This
is already being done to some degree, but there is room for improvement. If at all possible,
these hunts should be general open seasons rather than Limited Entry seasons. Furthermore,
they should be scheduled at a time when success is likely, include times when
young people can get away from school (early September or Thanksgiving weekend, for
example) and coincide with a general open season that provides a hunting opportunity
for their guardian as well. A general open season during the rut is ideal. If there are overharvest
concerns, this can be dealt with by adjusting the duration of the season.


Recommendation :

Wherever possible, provide general open seasons for mule deer and
white-tailed deer does for hunters under the age of 19 and hunters
participating in their first season.


Hunting opportunities such as this will allow better chances for early success and
increased sightings of potential game, both of which will make hunting more exciting
and enjoyable. Additionally, these opportunities will foster the social bonds of

hunting between young/new hunters and their mentors. Valuable field experience,
acquisition of hunting skills, direct instruction from an experienced adult and the social
aspects of hunting and hunter development are benefits that would stem from this
recommendation.

In general, wildlife managers should adopt a quantity over quality philosophy for deer,
moose and elk. Hunting success is strongly related to continued participation, and there
are far more hunters that are happy to shoot an average animal than there are hunters
whose specific purpose is to bag a trophy. Really skilled hunters are capable of finding
impressive animals if they put their minds to it, but hunters of lesser skill find their chances
for success greatly limited by trophy management practices. Furthermore, managing
for animals with impressive antlers pushes opportunity away from general open seasons
and towards Limited Entry hunting, restricting participation even further.

Recommendation :

In general, the Fish and Wildlife Branch should pursue a quantity over
quality direction in its management of deer, moose and elk.

[goinghunting]

Oddly, all the research into hunter motivations in this province state the exact opposite of what you're saying.

Hunter motivations rank "just finding a legal animal" as a top priority.

Hunter motivations rank "antler restrictions" as a top deterrent.

80% of hunters are firstly meat hunters. 17% are selective, then meat hunters. Only 3% are trophy hunters.




7. Opportunity and Enjoyment

Hunting opportunities are more restricted now than ever in the past. Tighter restrictions
on land access, increased private land and new restrictions within municipal boundaries
and regional districts have all reduced hunting opportunity. Wildlife management plans
designed to produce quality animals at the expense of quantity have further reduced
hunting opportunity, especially for novice hunters. The decline of hunting opportunities
close to Greater Vancouver and Greater Victoria has had a profound negative impact on
participation and recruitment. Some game species, such as Canada geese, have very
high population levels; yet hunting opportunities are limited in some areas because of
private land issues or local restrictions. Such limited hunting opportunity sometimes

arises even in areas where farmers would welcome a reduction in animals because they
are agricultural pests.



4. Optimize Hunting Opportunity and Make Hunting More Fun

In order to be attractive, especially to young people, hunting must be fun. Older hunters
may have other motivations such as tradition, hunting for food, stress relief, etc., but
fun and success are vital motivators for young hunters. Early success is a major factor in
“hooking“ people, especially the young, on hunting. The following recommendations
address this goal.
In many regions, deer populations are in good condition and does are especially abundant.
Antlerless hunts for mule deer and white-tailed deer for hunters under the age of 19
and hunters participating in their first season should be considered wherever possible. This
is already being done to some degree, but there is room for improvement. If at all possible,
these hunts should be general open seasons rather than Limited Entry seasons. Furthermore,
they should be scheduled at a time when success is likely, include times when
young people can get away from school (early September or Thanksgiving weekend, for
example) and coincide with a general open season that provides a hunting opportunity
for their guardian as well. A general open season during the rut is ideal. If there are overharvest
concerns, this can be dealt with by adjusting the duration of the season.


Recommendation :

Wherever possible, provide general open seasons for mule deer and
white-tailed deer does for hunters under the age of 19 and hunters
participating in their first season.


Hunting opportunities such as this will allow better chances for early success and
increased sightings of potential game, both of which will make hunting more exciting
and enjoyable. Additionally, these opportunities will foster the social bonds of

hunting between young/new hunters and their mentors. Valuable field experience,
acquisition of hunting skills, direct instruction from an experienced adult and the social
aspects of hunting and hunter development are benefits that would stem from this
recommendation.

In general, wildlife managers should adopt a quantity over quality philosophy for deer,
moose and elk. Hunting success is strongly related to continued participation, and there
are far more hunters that are happy to shoot an average animal than there are hunters
whose specific purpose is to bag a trophy. Really skilled hunters are capable of finding
impressive animals if they put their minds to it, but hunters of lesser skill find their chances
for success greatly limited by trophy management practices. Furthermore, managing
for animals with impressive antlers pushes opportunity away from general open seasons
and towards Limited Entry hunting, restricting participation even further.

Recommendation :

In general, the Fish and Wildlife Branch should pursue a quantity over
quality direction in its management of deer, moose and elk.


Where in my comments did I ever talk about greater vancouver and victoria or getting rid of youth season's, or making muledeer an LEH hunt???? In region 4 road closures are being lifted season's lengthened, LEH replaced by GOS season's, lengthened archery season's and increased youth seasons. Something tells me you work for the government and still believe everything every teacher ever told you. You do realize most studies have hidden agenda's and our funded by people who want these agenda's taken care of. To fix problems in lower vancouver by changing regulations in region 4 isn't even scientifically sound Mr. Science. I'm not alking about putting a 180 minimum on these bucks its 4 pt or better season this is far from a trophy hunt but nice try pal! If your percentages are right which I find hard to believe, we have plenty of whitetail doe seasons, cow elk seasons, any whitetail buck seasons, immature moose seasons etc. to keep the meat hunters happy. Shouldn't the other 20% count for something to? Our muledeer are taking a shit kicking right now and we need to help them before there all gone.

Final question for you fisher-dude do you even hunt in region 4?

[GoatGuy]

Where in my comments did I ever talk about greater vancouver and victoria or getting rid of youth season's, or making muledeer an LEH hunt???? In region 4 road closures are being lifted season's lengthened, LEH replaced by GOS season's, lengthened archery season's and increased youth seasons. Something tells me you work for the government and still believe everything every teacher ever told you. You do realize most studies have hidden agenda's and our funded by people who want these agenda's taken care of. To fix problems in lower vancouver by changing regulations in region 4 isn't even scientifically sound Mr. Science. I'm not alking about putting a 180 minimum on these bucks its 4 pt or better season this is far from a trophy hunt but nice try pal! If your percentages are right which I find hard to believe, we have plenty of whitetail doe seasons, cow elk seasons, any whitetail buck seasons, immature moose seasons etc. to keep the meat hunters happy. Shouldn't the other 20% count for something to? Our muledeer are taking a shit kicking right now and we need to help them before there all gone.

Final question for you fisher-dude do you even hunt in region 4?

No need to take the nImrod approach. Take a deep breath, engage brain, engage mouth.

[kootenayslam]

More emphasis should be put on managing our wildlife herds and not making up seasons that don't make sense to get people into the sport, wrong approach, Politics and selling licences should not be put above managing our wildlife. If an any buck season is wiping out all the small, young and dumb bucks(which it is in the West kootenays) it's time to stop that season and start a 4pnt season whether it sells more tags or not, this is new strategy called wildlife management.

[GoatGuy]

More emphasis should be put on managing our wildlife herds and not making up seasons that don't make sense to get people into the sport, wrong approach, Politics and selling licences should not be put above managing our wildlife. If an any buck season is wiping out all the small, young and dumb bucks(which it is in the West kootenays) it's time to stop that season and start a 4pnt season whether it sells more tags or not, this is new strategy called wildlife management.

What you're suggesting is called politics. There is no mention of science in your post, or how it should be applied.

Your post is about what you want, not what is best for wildlife or secondly hunters.

[dino]

Who hunts the alpine in November?

I do!...........

[Fisher-Dude]

Where in my comments did I ever talk about greater vancouver and victoria or getting rid of youth season's, or making muledeer an LEH hunt???? In region 4 road closures are being lifted season's lengthened, LEH replaced by GOS season's, lengthened archery season's and increased youth seasons. Something tells me you work for the government and still believe everything every teacher ever told you. You do realize most studies have hidden agenda's and our funded by people who want these agenda's taken care of. To fix problems in lower vancouver by changing regulations in region 4 isn't even scientifically sound Mr. Science. I'm not alking about putting a 180 minimum on these bucks its 4 pt or better season this is far from a trophy hunt but nice try pal! If your percentages are right which I find hard to believe, we have plenty of whitetail doe seasons, cow elk seasons, any whitetail buck seasons, immature moose seasons etc. to keep the meat hunters happy. Shouldn't the other 20% count for something to? Our muledeer are taking a shit kicking right now and we need to help them before there all gone.

Final question for you fisher-dude do you even hunt in region 4?


I've hunted region 4 since before you were born.

Your statements that newbie hunters want to hunt bigger deer under point restrictions is incorrect.

I have posted the results of studies on the issue. You've blabbed out nonsense that is just your opinion.

Let's see your studies and surveys that support what you're syaing, instead of bullshit from the Cranbrook coffee shop.

[40incher]

Looks like you're getting ganged up on Kootenayslam. Killing baby deer is not what real hunters want (or moose, or sheep, or goat, or bear, etc ....). Who would want to kill a yearling bear?

What you are getting is recycled bureaucratic nonsense. One size does not fit all.

Point restrictions allow animals to live long enough to contribute to the population, as opposed to being dead when they grow bone on their head. It's called selective hunting.

Let'em live long enough to put some meat on, if we are all meat hunters as is said.

[Fisher-Dude]

How's your "resident hunter" group going that has failed at every turn to dis the work of the BCWF? Right, dead in the water.

There's a reason why elitist attitudes and calls for trophy-only seasons don't fly with game managers - because they aren't congruent with science-based game management.

[goinghunting]

I've hunted region 4 since before you were born.

Your statements that newbie hunters want to hunt bigger deer under point restrictions is incorrect.

I have posted the results of studies on the issue. You've blabbed out nonsense that is just your opinion.

Let's see your studies and surveys that support what you're syaing, instead of bullshit from the Cranbrook coffee shop.

how do you know how old I am lets see your research or study on that? My opinion doesn't come from a coffee shop in cranbrook infact I'm not even talking about the east kootenays, I'm talking about the west kootenays.

One day you'll wake up and realize everything you ever thought to be true really wasn't. the governement and there studies do not care about wildlife management and never will. They care about selling tags so they can profit from our sport. People like yourself are our sports worst enemy. you make the government really happy and go and buy every tag you possable can and then shoot ever legal animal that stands in front of you until there all gone. Now new hunters are turned off by the sport because some of them can hunt a wholes season without even seeing a buck. So yes I fully support putting a point restriction on our mule deer, because people like you are never gonna get it. if a new hunter goes out and see's a 2 pt and a 3 pt. that he wasn't aloud to kill I'm thinkin he'll be alot more excited to get out there again next year in the hope they've grown the 4th point. Compared to when they haven't seen a thing, some would rather find a hobby thats a little more exciting at that point. I know this puts a damper on your hunting style and your gonna have to put a slight bit of effort in to fill your freezer if a 4 pt or better season was brought in but still shouldn't be to draining fisher-dude

[goinghunting]

What you're suggesting is called politics. There is no mention of science in your post, or how it should be applied.

Your post is about what you want, not what is best for wildlife or secondly hunters.

something that allows more deer to be around is good for everyone.

what would you rather see done then goat guy?

[goinghunting]

How's your "resident hunter" group going that has failed at every turn to dis the work of the BCWF? Right, dead in the water.

There's a reason why elitist attitudes and calls for trophy-only seasons don't fly with game managers - because they aren't congruent with science-based game management.


like I said before this isn't a trophy season! It's 4 pt or better alot of these bucks would only be 2 1/2 years old when they grow that 4th pt. While were at it why not get rid of 6 pt or better elk then fisher dude and full curl sheep, **** it shoot em all!

[Fisher-Dude]

how do you know how old I am lets see your research or study on that? My opinion doesn't come from a coffee shop in cranbrook infact I'm not even talking about the east kootenays, I'm talking about the west kootenays.

One day you'll wake up and realize everything you ever thought to be true really wasn't. the governement and there studies do not care about wildlife management and never will. They care about selling tags so they can profit from our sport. People like yourself are our sports worst enemy. you make the government really happy and go and buy every tag you possable can and then shoot ever legal animal that stands in front of you until there all gone. Now new hunters are turned off by the sport because some of them can hunt a wholes season without even seeing a buck. So yes I fully support putting a point restriction on our mule deer, because people like you are never gonna get it. if a new hunter goes out and see's a 2 pt and a 3 pt. that he wasn't aloud to kill I'm thinkin he'll be alot more excited to get out there again next year in the hope they've grown the 4th point. Compared to when they haven't seen a thing, some would rather find a hobby thats a little more exciting at that point. I know this puts a damper on your hunting style and your gonna have to put a slight bit of effort in to fill your freezer if a 4 pt or better season was brought in but still shouldn't be to draining fisher-dude


Let's see your research on hunter motivations to back up what you're saying. I came to the plate and posted mine. Otherwise, you're living in a world of unsubstantiated rhetoric.

[GoatGuy]

something that allows more deer to be around is good for everyone.

what would you rather see done then goat guy?

Going to a 4 pt only won't result in more mule deer.

[GoatGuy]

Looks like you're getting ganged up on Kootenayslam. Killing baby deer is not what real hunters want (or moose, or sheep, or goat, or bear, etc ....). Who would want to kill a yearling bear?

What you are getting is recycled bureaucratic nonsense. One size does not fit all.

Point restrictions allow animals to live long enough to contribute to the population, as opposed to being dead when they grow bone on their head. It's called selective hunting.

Let'em live long enough to put some meat on, if we are all meat hunters as is said.

This isn't consistent with wildilfe management.

[PascalMcKay]

like I said before this isn't a trophy season! It's 4 pt or better alot of these bucks would only be 2 1/2 years old when they grow that 4th pt. While were at it why not get rid of 6 pt or better elk then fisher dude and full curl sheep, **** it shoot em all!

2 1/2 year old 4 pt mule deer? I find that hard to believe.

[dana]

2 1/2 year old 4 pt mule deer? I find that hard to believe.

Good genetics means a buck will be a basket 4 in their first year of growth. I've killed several of them and seen a ton of them killed over the years. So it is a major misconception that 4 point or better seasons see an older age class deer being killed. You actually will see a vast majority of the 4 points killed are 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 year old good genetic bucks, whereas in the general any buck season you will see poor genetic spikes and forkeys being harvested. So those that say meat hunters are baby killers, which is better? A spike that is never going to amount to $hit being put in the freezer or a yearling to 2 year old 4 point that has the potential to grow up into a giant? All you wannabe trophy hunters need to wrap your head around that before you go slamming average hunters that are out there for enjoyment and for table fair. A dink is a dink is a dink. It don't matter if it is a spike or a 4.

[PascalMcKay]

Good genetics means a buck will be a basket 4 in their first year of growth. I've killed several of them and seen a ton of them killed over the years. So it is a major misconception that 4 point or better seasons see an older age class deer being killed. You actually will see a vast majority of the 4 points killed are 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 year old good genetic bucks, whereas in the general any buck season you will see poor genetic spikes and forkeys being harvested. So those that say meat hunters are baby killers, which is better? A spike that is never going to amount to $hit being put in the freezer or a yearling to 2 year old 4 point that has the potential to grow up into a giant? All you wannabe trophy hunters need to wrap your head around that before you go slamming average hunters that are out there for enjoyment and for table fair. A dink is a dink is a dink. It don't matter if it is a spike or a 4.

Thanks for verifying that...who would have guessed.

[Islandeer]

Maybe he's not talking about general population levels! Our mature buck population in region 4 is extremely low right now and if you want to increase hunter numbers you'd better have a few mature bucks kicking around to keep people interested. Even if our only goal is to fill the freezer, chasin babies gets pretty boring after a while! I fully agree with panama we need this any buck season in region 4 to disappear before there's not any mature bucks around. I know the any buck season is not the whole problem behind our declining mule deer population but its a good place to start!

This thread is akin to Groundhog Day. GH,read the entire mule deer thread from awhlie back, you will hopefully learn somethings about mule deer population dynamics.

As far as you trying to increase mature mule deer numbers by taking away the any buck season,forget it. In any group of mule deer there are only a handful that are mature,regardless of hunting seasons. And I don't hunt the any buck season and our family consistantly kills 4pt mule deer every year in region 4. This last season was one of our best, lotsa bucks, i think your looking in the wrong spots!!!

[kootenayslam]

Dana you're wrong there have been studies done that indicate a bucks first rack does not reflect how big he will grow when in his prime, also...the majority of mule deer will grow spikes, two point or three points first then progress to 4 points, everyone is out there for enjoyment and table fair but seeing more deer will be more enjoyable.....not to mention an older buck is going to be much heavier body wise, hence more meat........a 4 point season benifits ALL hunters whether looking for a decent rack and meat or just looking for more meat you will generally get an older age class deer with a 4 point season.

[GoatGuy]

Dana you're wrong there have been studies done that indicate a bucks first rack does not reflect how big he will grow when in his prime, also...the majority of mule deer will grow spikes, two point or three points first then progress to 4 points, everyone is out there for enjoyment and table fair but seeing more deer will be more enjoyable.....not to mention an older buck is going to be much heavier body wise, hence more meat........a 4 point season benifits ALL hunters whether looking for a decent rack and meat or just looking for more meat you will generally get an older age class deer with a 4 point season.

Incorrect..

[leadpillproductions]

It has everything to do with genetics, look at the hason buck they say its only 3 and 1/2 and its the world record

[PascalMcKay]

Dana you're wrong there have been studies done that indicate a bucks first rack does not reflect how big he will grow when in his prime, also...the majority of mule deer will grow spikes, two point or three points first then progress to 4 points, everyone is out there for enjoyment and table fair but seeing more deer will be more enjoyable.....not to mention an older buck is going to be much heavier body wise, hence more meat........a 4 point season benifits ALL hunters whether looking for a decent rack and meat or just looking for more meat you will generally get an older age class deer with a 4 point season.

I hate 4pt restrictions, if I want a little buck what is wrong with that? I am only allowed one anyway. Just people after big antlers IMHO

[Trophyslayer]

I hate 4pt restrictions, if I want a little buck what is wrong with that? I am only allowed one anyway. Just people after big antlers IMHO
Some people don't have patients or the skills to kill a big buck

[goinghunting]

All you guys that figure 4 pt or better is so bad how come you don't have the balls to respond to my earlier comment about the elk and sheep. If opening the flood gates is your wildlife management strategy then why not get rid of 6 pt or better elk, get rid of the full curl restriction on sheep and while were at it lets get rid of LEH. Why not hey! First 10 or 20 guys into the granby will have a hay day on those sheep woohoo! The ministry will be happy they'll sell piles of tags, ICBC will love it no more vehicle accidents because of animals, win win right except for the hunters we loose in the end. Part of hunting is conservation or we end up like some parts of the states and there's nothing left to hunt unless you can afford to hunt on a game farm. The reason some areas have point restrictions or leh is because they are more vulnerable and need more control to keep numbers healthy. So if you all figure 4 pt or better season isn't going to help anything in the west kootenays I'm all ears for other ideas. I'm not talking about saving them all and yes some bucks with tremendous genetics will be killed at a young age but if it was an only buck season they would anyway. I'm talking about letting a small percentage of these deer get another year of maturity under there belt and just maybe the odd one will be smart enough to at least run away when fisher-dude's truck comes scooten down the road. Then you might increase our over all number of bucks by a very small percentage!

[goinghunting]

Incorrect..

what is correct then goat guy?

[PascalMcKay]

All you guys that figure 4 pt or better is so bad how come you don't have the balls to respond to my earlier comment about the elk and sheep. If opening the flood gates is your wildlife management strategy then why not get rid of 6 pt or better elk, get rid of the full curl restriction on sheep and while were at it lets get rid of LEH. Why not hey! First 10 or 20 guys into the granby will have a hay day on those sheep woohoo! The ministry will be happy they'll sell piles of tags, ICBC will love it no more vehicle accidents because of animals, win win right except for the hunters we loose in the end. Part of hunting is conservation or we end up like some parts of the states and there's nothing left to hunt unless you can afford to hunt on a game farm. The reason some areas have point restrictions or leh is because they are more vulnerable and need more control to keep numbers healthy. So if you all figure 4 pt or better season isn't going to help anything in the west kootenays I'm all ears for other ideas. I'm not talking about saving them all and yes some bucks with tremendous genetics will be killed at a young age but if it was an only buck season they would anyway. I'm talking about letting a small percentage of these deer get another year of maturity under there belt and just maybe the odd one will be smart enough to at least run away when fisher-dude's truck comes scooten down the road. Then you might increase our over all number of bucks by a very small percentage!


Sounds good, no more leh ! Good idea! No more 6 pt elk restriction! Good idea! Maybe not so good for sheep not as many around. With all those idiotic antler rules I could actually hunt instead of focusing on frigging points!

[dana]

Dana you're wrong there have been studies done that indicate a bucks first rack does not reflect how big he will grow when in his prime, also...the majority of mule deer will grow spikes, two point or three points first then progress to 4 points, everyone is out there for enjoyment and table fair but seeing more deer will be more enjoyable.....not to mention an older buck is going to be much heavier body wise, hence more meat........a 4 point season benifits ALL hunters whether looking for a decent rack and meat or just looking for more meat you will generally get an older age class deer with a 4 point season.

I don't know where you've got your info from, but you are dead wrong. The genetic make up of a buck determines antler size big time! And I might add the buck receives good antler genes from both parents. The average muley buck will grow into a 170 class buck when mature. Those that are mature and still are in the 120-160 class recieved $hitty antler genes and probably had poor feed too. A yearling spike will never amount to $hit. He will never even come close to the average of 170. Meanwhile on the other side of things, a yearling 4 has better than average genes. I've seen them reach 150 class at age 2 and 215 at age 4. That is the difference genetics plays in the role. Now throw in good winters, good feed and good minerals and that same buck can break 230 at age 5. The true giants can see 30-50 inches of extra growth in 1 year. Bucks have been known to go from 230 one year to 275 in one year's growth. You can be certain they didn't start at a spike or forky in their first year.

You can bitch and moan all you want about the lack of mature bucks blah blah blah, but 4 point or better seasons do not produce bigger bucks. All they do is limit buck harvest doing vulnerable times of the year like the rut. It is harder to kill a basket racked 4 point in the timber than to kill any buck because you have to have the confidence in your point count. The time it takes to get the count, the higher the odds are that buck is going to wise up started bailing. But.....young bucks be it a spike or a young 4 haven't grown into their smarts like a big ol' mature 5+ year old, so the young ones are more destined to get whacked by hunters regardless the season. Nothing is changed. You don't grow more deer by limiting buck harvest. Bucks aren't the ones giving birth.

[dana]

Here's an example of a yearling buck with great genetics. This buck still was hanging out with moma and yearling sis. This is the kind of buck that had potential to be an absolute gagger. But my father only wanted a meat buck and this one fit the bill, so it died. Was great to have my son along to see grandpa kill a buck too. You see, for most people, that's what hunting is all about.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Hunting%20Pics/HuntingPics403a.jpg

[dana]

Here's an example of good genetics as a buck matures.

2 year old 4 point (140-150 class)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Wildlife%20Pics/Widebugger0001.jpg

Same deer at 4 years old. (210-215 class)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Wildlife%20Pics/Widebugger0253.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Wildlife%20Pics/Widebugger0219.jpg

Same deer at 5 years old. (225 class)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Wildlife%20Pics/Widebugger0301.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Wildlife%20Pics/Widebugger0303.jpg

[dana]

Same deer at 6 years old. (37 1/2 inch wide 200 class typical)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Wildlife%20Pics/Widebugger0404.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Wildlife%20Pics/IMG_0191.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Wildlife%20Pics/Mar25008a.jpg

I was able to film this buck within a couple hundred metre radius and some years I found him in the exact same bed. He became catscat shortly after he shed his 200 inch typical sheds. I often wonder how big he would have grown if he had of reached 9 or 10 years. It is ALL in the genes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Wildlife%20Pics/MatchedSet001a.jpg

[goinghunting]

I don't know where you've got your info from, but you are dead wrong. The genetic make up of a buck determines antler size big time! And I might add the buck receives good antler genes from both parents. The average muley buck will grow into a 170 class buck when mature. Those that are mature and still are in the 120-160 class recieved $hitty antler genes and probably had poor feed too. A yearling spike will never amount to $hit. He will never even come close to the average of 170. Meanwhile on the other side of things, a yearling 4 has better than average genes. I've seen them reach 150 class at age 2 and 215 at age 4. That is the difference genetics plays in the role. Now throw in good winters, good feed and good minerals and that same buck can break 230 at age 5. The true giants can see 30-50 inches of extra growth in 1 year. Bucks have been known to go from 230 one year to 275 in one year's growth. You can be certain they didn't start at a spike or forky in their first year.

You can bitch and moan all you want about the lack of mature bucks blah blah blah, but 4 point or better seasons do not produce bigger bucks. All they do is limit buck harvest doing vulnerable times of the year like the rut. It is harder to kill a basket racked 4 point in the timber than to kill any buck because you have to have the confidence in your point count. The time it takes to get the count, the higher the odds are that buck is going to wise up started bailing. But.....young bucks be it a spike or a young 4 haven't grown into their smarts like a big ol' mature 5+ year old, so the young ones are more destined to get whacked by hunters regardless the season. Nothing is changed. You don't grow more deer by limiting buck harvest. Bucks aren't the ones giving birth.


To protect young bucks during a vulnerable time is exactly what I'm getting at! In the West Kootenays LEH elk was changed to GOS starting Oct.1 which just so happens to be right when the anybuck season opens up. Now many thousands of hunters show up to get these supposed 380 class bulls that are supposedly behind every tree and when it turns out there not quite so abundant they don't want to come home empty handed. So we have a little geographical area, with already struggling mule deer numbers being pounded, I'd say that warrants vulnerability.

So you can "bitch and moan" all you want that we don't have a problem and you don't wanna fix it but you are then part of the problem. Now all you guys with access to all these statistics lets see a recent mule deer population count and buck to doe ratio survey for the west kootenays. Rescent enough to incorporate the effects of the GOS elk season?

[OutWest]

GH, how do you come up with the thought that thousands of hunters come here to the West Koots and turn their attention to mule deer and are successful? That view has been shared by others before and has consistently been shot down. Typical NIMBY attitude.

How many times does it need to be drilled into your head that 4 point seasons don't produce bigger bucks and won't leave you with more deer.

[Islandeer]

GH you quite clearly want mule deer hunting in your local area to be primarily a trophy hunt. Admit it, you are supporting elitist hunting that specifically targets 2 % of the buck population. Tell us again why the vast majority of BC hunters should roll over for your views. seems to me that there are more than a few guys on this humble site that smack trophy class bucks just about every year. Maybe hunt a little smarter and harder with your buddies.

[Fisher-Dude]

GH you quite clearly want mule deer hunting in your local area to be primarily a trophy hunt. Admit it, you are supporting elitist hunting that specifically targets 2 % of the buck population. Tell us again why the vast majority of BC hunters should roll over for your views. seems to me that there are more than a few guys on this humble site that smack trophy class bucks just about every year. Maybe hunt a little smarter and harder with your buddies.

Dana and his crew consistently take the biggest bucks on here, and from the region with the most liberal mule deer seasons. Islandeer has it nailed: it's the hunters that are gettin' it done, not a restrictive trophy season.

[goinghunting]

GH you quite clearly want mule deer hunting in your local area to be primarily a trophy hunt. Admit it, you are supporting elitist hunting that specifically targets 2 % of the buck population. Tell us again why the vast majority of BC hunters should roll over for your views. seems to me that there are more than a few guys on this humble site that smack trophy class bucks just about every year. Maybe hunt a little smarter and harder with your buddies.

Islandeer I was ignoring you because you obviously hadn't read farther back in this thread. No were in here am I stateing my inability to kill trophy's but maybe you could help me out all knowing!!!! If you are looking for a cock fight on who's shot bigger start another thread! No were in here did I say I'm trying to grow trophy's. I'm talking about allowing these deer to grow brains before they are hunted, and increasing our buck to doe ratio's. So that the newbie hunters that I have spoken to that aren't even seeing a mule deer buck might at least see some smaller then 4 pt bucks to keep them interested, and with time possable be regularly killing bucks of a SLIGHTLY higher age class. And protecting smaller bucks during a heavily hunted period of time. Earlier in this thread there is a mention of buck to doe ratio's of 1:100 in the koocanusa, I don't hunt in that area but that is what we need to fix. I've asked for counts on the west kootenay region and nobody has responded. Myself and many other avid mule deer hunters have noticed a sizeable decrease in the general buck numbers in the west and parts of the east kootenays.

nickroth89 who has shutdown the muledeer being harvested during elk GOS theory?

[Fisher-Dude]

2.1 Hunter motivations
By a significant margin, the leading motivation was to obtain game meat, followed by being close to
nature, getting away from day to day activity and the company of partners and family (BC MOE,
2005b, p.6). Bagging a trophy was identified as the most insignificant motivation to hunt, with
only 3% of respondents indicating that as their leading motivation (BC MOE, 2005b, p.7).



They viewed trophy style
management seasons, costs of licenses, complex regulations, limited entry hunting and a lack of
hunting partners as either a deterrent or a major source of frustration. The cost of gas and a lack
of spare time were not significant deterrents.


Meat and meat, then selective hunters often expressed difficulty in finding legal game and
indicated that 4 point Mule Deer, 6 point Bull Elk and sometimes 2 point Bull Moose seasons,
were extremely frustrating and decreased their participation.
These trophy seasons were likened to a cost/benefit analysis much as in business. When asked:
What deters you from hunting? One respondent indicated: “Mostly the odds. Would likely hunt
more but basically have a ‘realistic’ attitude about my chances of finding a ‘qualified’
specimen.” These sentiments were echoed in several surveys.


In 1998, there is a significant decrease in Mule Deer hunters and a slight
increase in White-tailed Deer hunters; this coincides with an implementation of 4 point Mule
Deer during the majority of the hunting season.


Results of the hunter survey also demonstrate 50% of respondents find antler restrictions, and
40% found the number of legal animals somewhat or extremely discouraging. Furthermore,
Mule Deer are 48% of hunters’ number 1 choice to hunt, whereas only 36% of hunters indicated
White-tailed Deer were their number 1 choice (Appendix 20 and Appendix 21).

[Fisher-Dude]

Still waiting for GH to post his study results that back up his position.

[dana]

To protect young bucks during a vulnerable time is exactly what I'm getting at! In the West Kootenays LEH elk was changed to GOS starting Oct.1 which just so happens to be right when the anybuck season opens up. Now many thousands of hunters show up to get these supposed 380 class bulls that are supposedly behind every tree and when it turns out there not quite so abundant they don't want to come home empty handed. So we have a little geographical area, with already struggling mule deer numbers being pounded, I'd say that warrants vulnerability.

So you can "bitch and moan" all you want that we don't have a problem and you don't wanna fix it but you are then part of the problem. Now all you guys with access to all these statistics lets see a recent mule deer population count and buck to doe ratio survey for the west kootenays. Rescent enough to incorporate the effects of the GOS elk season?

You totally missed the point dude. It is the young good genetics bucks that get hammered during 4 point or better seasons. I happen to live in an area that sees a ton of pressure from both local and out-of-towners and since we are the only Region open during the rut, it is here that hunters flock to. They don't flock to the Koots because your seasons are long over. So what do they end up shooting during the 4 point or better seasons???? Young 4 points! 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 year old deer are what the vast majority of hunters are killing during those 4 point or better seasons. Get it! You aren't saving a damn thing when it comes to 4 point or better seasons versus any buck seasons. The advantage Region 3 has is we have both seasons, so hunters can shoot what they want and we have harvest over ALL age classes. You go to strickly a 4 point or better season you will see the young 4's get hammered year after year until all you have left is the $hitty genetic 2's and 3's. You complain about not finding mature deer now. Imagine 3 or 4 years down the line when you can't find a mature buck because you've been killing off your good genetics? Sounds like a great idea don't it. The Trophy Mentality that if you shut out everyone from hunting your backyard that you somehow will have a ton of monsters to choose from for yourself don't work. Instead of complaining about other hunters, why don't you just learn how to hunt the bucks that you've got, because the Koots still has some whoppers. If you want one, you have to work for it, just like anywhere. They do not grow on trees.

[roymil]

So when exactly do you think the bucks rut in the Kootenays????

[goinghunting]

Still waiting for GH to post his study results that back up his position.

I don't have studies and like I said before yours are generalized. We cannot manage region 4 based on region 3, 2 totally different area's its hard to manage region 4 just based on region 4 the east and west sides are very different areas. I'm still waiting for you to post counts for the west kootenays? You seem to have all the counts and studies right at your finger tips? If we follow your generalization rules then why are east kootenay sheep GOS and kamloops sheep LEH and so on?

[Fisher-Dude]

Of course you don't have any studies to back up what you're saying, because you're blowing smoke about what motivates hunters. My studies are the results of surveying and studying BC's hunters about why they hunt and what they find discouraging. You stated unequivocally that a newbie hunter wants to shoot a stomper buck, when in fact newbie hunters want to shoot ANY buck, and are discouraged from hunting when they have 4 point rules forced on them.

You want fewer hunters in the bush, that's plain to see. I want more hunters, because we'll lose all hunting to political pressure if we don't keep our numbers up, not to mention we'll lose all funding for wildlife while we're at it.

[goinghunting]

You totally missed the point dude. It is the young good genetics bucks that get hammered during 4 point or better seasons. I happen to live in an area that sees a ton of pressure from both local and out-of-towners and since we are the only Region open during the rut, it is here that hunters flock to. They don't flock to the Koots because your seasons are long over. So what do they end up shooting during the 4 point or better seasons???? Young 4 points! 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 year old deer are what the vast majority of hunters are killing during those 4 point or better seasons. Get it! You aren't saving a damn thing when it comes to 4 point or better seasons versus any buck seasons. The advantage Region 3 has is we have both seasons, so hunters can shoot what they want and we have harvest over ALL age classes. You go to strickly a 4 point or better season you will see the young 4's get hammered year after year until all you have left is the $hitty genetic 2's and 3's. You complain about not finding mature deer now. Imagine 3 or 4 years down the line when you can't find a mature buck because you've been killing off your good genetics? Sounds like a great idea don't it. The Trophy Mentality that if you shut out everyone from hunting your backyard that you somehow will have a ton of monsters to choose from for yourself don't work. Instead of complaining about other hunters, why don't you just learn how to hunt the bucks that you've got, because the Koots still has some whoppers. If you want one, you have to work for it, just like anywhere. They do not grow on trees.

Our seasons are open to November 15th which definetly incorporates the rut. I fully know how to hunt the bucks we've got, like I told islanddeer we can have a who has shot bigger cock fight another time. I am listening to what your saying about the genetics and I see that point, but if a 4 pt or better season isn' the answer then what is? And at least we could think about not aligning the elk GOS with the mule deer anybuck season?

[dana]

going hunting,
Sheep are not deer. Stop talking like they are.

Roymil,
The peak of the rut in the southern Interior is usually the 15th-20th. :)

[goinghunting]

Of course you don't have any studies to back up what you're saying, because you're blowing smoke about what motivates hunters. My studies are the results of surveying and studying BC's hunters about why they hunt and what they find discouraging. You stated unequivocally that a newbie hunter wants to shoot a stomper buck, when in fact newbie hunters want to shoot ANY buck, and are discouraged from hunting when they have 4 point rules forced on them.

You want fewer hunters in the bush, that's plain to see. I want more hunters, because we'll lose all hunting to political pressure if we don't keep our numbers up, not to mention we'll lose all funding for wildlife while we're at it.

Don't put words in my mouth I want more hunters in the bush for the same reason. I however do not want more hunters just so the government can profit from it! I've hunted my whole life and have never had the chance to participate in one of these surveys so there obviously not hitting all groups of hunters. Show me results of a survey,how it was run and where and maybe I'll then agree.

[goinghunting]

going hunting,
Sheep are not deer. Stop talking like they are.

Roymil,
The peak of the rut in the southern Interior is usually the 15th-20th. :)

agreed and region 4 is not region 3!

the peak of the rut is roughly nov.10th we are not missing out on hunting deer in the rut in region 4!

[budismyhorse]

Islandeer I was ignoring you because you obviously hadn't read farther back in this thread. No were in here am I stateing my inability to kill trophy's but maybe you could help me out all knowing!!!! If you are looking for a cock fight on who's shot bigger start another thread! No were in here did I say I'm trying to grow trophy's. I'm talking about allowing these deer to grow brains before they are hunted, and increasing our buck to doe ratio's. So that the newbie hunters that I have spoken to that aren't even seeing a mule deer buck might at least see some smaller then 4 pt bucks to keep them interested, and with time possable be regularly killing bucks of a SLIGHTLY higher age class. And protecting smaller bucks during a heavily hunted period of time. Earlier in this thread there is a mention of buck to doe ratio's of 1:100 in the koocanusa, I don't hunt in that area but that is what we need to fix. I've asked for counts on the west kootenay region and nobody has responded. Myself and many other avid mule deer hunters have noticed a sizeable decrease in the general buck numbers in the west and parts of the east kootenays.

nickroth89 who has shutdown the muledeer being harvested during elk GOS theory?


well I'm not going through this horrendous thread but I should say this........whoever stated this ratio is dead ass wrong. Amazing how things get twisted around to fit agendas.

[dana]

Our seasons are open to November 15th which definetly incorporates the rut. I fully know how to hunt the bucks we've got, like I told islanddeer we can have a who has shot bigger cock fight another time. I am listening to what your saying about the genetics and I see that point, but if a 4 pt or better season isn' the answer then what is? And at least we could think about not aligning the elk GOS with the mule deer anybuck season?


The answer my friend is right next store in Region 3. HARVEST OVER ALL AGE CLASSES. Region 3 produces the monsters that it does because it has been managing it's deer effectively for the last 20 years. We have both any buck seasons and 4 point only seasons. You guys have had just 4 point only seasons up until just recently. 2 years of anybuck season did SWEET F### ALL to your situation. You can bang the drum of SLAUGHTER all you want, it just ain't true. As a matter of fact the answers have been glaring on this board all year as hunters have complained about not seeing any bucks in the Koots. Just because hunters don't see deer doesn't mean they all died. Mule Deer are in a tight timber hiding pattern right now province wide. If you were around during the late 90's you'll remember the same thing happened for a few years then too. Funny that those years were El Nino and La Nina as well. So if no one was finding deer this past year, then you logically are saying they were all slaughtered in the first year it was open, the exact same year that the West Koots opened up bull elk after years of being LEH only. That caused a elk hunter exodus from the East Koots and everyone and their dog was hunting elk in the West Koots in search of that next World Record. So your theory about the elk hunters don't hold water. If all the elk hunters were in the West Koots, who was killing all the muleys in the East Koots that same year???? Where is the SLAUGHTER?

[Fisher-Dude]

Recommended place to start reading:

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/ds/docs/070607_HunterRecruitment-RetentionStrategy.pdf

[dana]

If you think the peak of the rut is the 10th then there is a reason you ain't finding the big boys. The dates I just put up are the ones ol' Jelly has been searching for for years as he resurrects the best 3 days to hunt muleys thread.

[budismyhorse]

The big stink over a "lack of bucks" in the East Koots in 2011 was IMHO entirely due to the weather. A tonne, if not the majority of muley hunters late season just hang out on the fringe between winter range and fall range. This year, the snow didn't push the bucks down far enough.....and viola, bitching and moaning the sky is falling.

I had a couple guys parked near my truck at the end of the day singing and dancing that old tune. I had just come off the mountain and had a pretty good day. Lots of deer, a few bucks, pretty standard. These guys had been driving around the bottom all day working on a box of Timmy's and lower lumbar problems.

Point is, those guys tend to be the ones who like to sit and talk on the side of the road and tell tales of whoa. Those stories get transmitted via coffee shop and here we sit. Putting out the flames.

[houndogger]

The answer my friend is right next store in Region 3. HARVEST OVER ALL AGE CLASSES. Region 3 produces the monsters that it does because it has been managing it's deer effectively for the last 20 years. We have both any buck seasons and 4 point only seasons. You guys have had just 4 point only seasons up until just recently. 2 years of anybuck season did SWEET F### ALL to your situation. You can bang the drum of SLAUGHTER all you want, it just ain't true. As a matter of fact the answers have been glaring on this board all year as hunters have complained about not seeing any bucks in the Koots. Just because hunters don't see deer doesn't mean they all died. Mule Deer are in a tight timber hiding pattern right now province wide. If you were around during the late 90's you'll remember the same thing happened for a few years then too. Funny that those years were El Nino and La Nina as well. So if no one was finding deer this past year, then you logically are saying they were all slaughtered in the first year it was open, the exact same year that the West Koots opened up bull elk after years of being LEH only. That caused a elk hunter exodus from the East Koots and everyone and their dog was hunting elk in the West Koots in search of that next World Record. So your theory about the elk hunters don't hold water. If all the elk hunters were in the West Koots, who was killing all the muleys in the East Koots that same year???? Where is the SLAUGHTER?
Hey Steve haven't seen anything decent from you out of the last few years? Whats your latest excuse? Kids, wolves, LML hunters...maybe start climbing those hills...lol

[Islandeer]

Just for the record GH, i don't give a rip about who kill's the biggest buck. I admire the guys who consistently get it done,season after season,because i know the commitment that is required. I can't afford the time to scout the area i hunt in region 4 in the off season and pre season as I live here on the island. Having said that I know where to find 4 pts,just not those 170 class and up ones! So here's something for yah, our groups success has been amazing since the any buck season was introduced, 7 4pts in the last 2 seasons from muley depleted region 4, we see lots of bucks and i guess we kind of like the any buck season. Seems to let more 4 pts get through, kind of like what dana and others have so patiently an informatively been saying.... spread the harvest over all of the age classes. :wink:

I do agree with you that in a perfect world you would shoot a 180 wall hanger at least every other year. :)

[40incher]

Can't even be bothered to read all the crap that has led to the latest posts.

But here's where the bear shit in the buckwheat:

Point restrictions (or other restriction like full-curl for rams) are proven. We would not be hunting bull elk on GOS were it not for point restrictions. We would not be hunting rams on a GOS if we did not have regulations that allowed the males to survive past 1 1/2 year old. Why is it different for deer? Only because the all-knowing bureaucratic minds say so. Their heads, and their apologists heads, are so far up their ass they can almost see daylight.

So, I would say, pull your head out and see the point-restriction light. And quit being apologists for the minority.

[The Hermit]

Of course you don't have any studies to back up what you're saying, because you're blowing smoke about what motivates hunters. My studies are the results of surveying and studying BC's hunters about why they hunt and what they find discouraging. You stated unequivocally that a newbie hunter wants to shoot a stomper buck, when in fact newbie hunters want to shoot ANY buck, and are discouraged from hunting when they have 4 point rules forced on them.

You want fewer hunters in the bush, that's plain to see. I want more hunters, because we'll lose all hunting to political pressure if we don't keep our numbers up, not to mention we'll lose all funding for wildlife while we're at it.

FD = President of the Hunter's union of BC!! LOL

[GoatGuy]

To protect young bucks during a vulnerable time is exactly what I'm getting at! In the West Kootenays LEH elk was changed to GOS starting Oct.1 which just so happens to be right when the anybuck season opens up. Now many thousands of hunters show up to get these supposed 380 class bulls that are supposedly behind every tree and when it turns out there not quite so abundant they don't want to come home empty handed. So we have a little geographical area, with already struggling mule deer numbers being pounded, I'd say that warrants vulnerability.

So you can "bitch and moan" all you want that we don't have a problem and you don't wanna fix it but you are then part of the problem. Now all you guys with access to all these statistics lets see a recent mule deer population count and buck to doe ratio survey for the west kootenays. Rescent enough to incorporate the effects of the GOS elk season?

I sincerely hope you've never been to a doctor, lawyer,or dealt with anyone who isn't a witch. That is the only way you can support you're argument.

My advice is magic only exists in story books. Leave the nimrod approach and start dealing with science. Ask the right questions.

How do we increase the deer population? After 15 years of no doe season why aren't here deer running everywhere ?

Getting rid of an any buck season will not make more mule deer. You're dealing with symptoms, not the problem.

[goinghunting]

Can't even be bothered to read all the crap that has led to the latest posts.

But here's where the bear shit in the buckwheat:

Point restrictions (or other restriction like full-curl for rams) are proven. We would not be hunting bull elk on GOS were it not for point restrictions. We would not be hunting rams on a GOS if we did not have regulations that allowed the males to survive past 1 1/2 year old. Why is it different for deer? Only because the all-knowing bureaucratic minds say so. Their heads, and their apologists heads, are so far up their ass they can almost see daylight.

So, I would say, pull your head out and see the point-restriction light. And quit being apologists for the minority.

Finally someone who's getting what I'm saying and has some common sense!

[GoatGuy]

Can't even be bothered to read all the crap that has led to the latest posts.

But here's where the bear shit in the buckwheat:

Point restrictions (or other restriction like full-curl for rams) are proven. We would not be hunting bull elk on GOS were it not for point restrictions. We would not be hunting rams on a GOS if we did not have regulations that allowed the males to survive past 1 1/2 year old. Why is it different for deer? Only because the all-knowing bureaucratic minds say so. Their heads, and their apologists heads, are so far up their ass they can almost see daylight.

So, I would say, pull your head out and see the point-restriction light. And quit being apologists for the minority.

If you wanted the best man strategy it would be 8+ NOT full curl for sheep. Full curl are not 'proven', neither are 4 pts seasons.

This is out of touch with science.

[GoatGuy]

The big stink over a "lack of bucks" in the East Koots in 2011 was IMHO entirely due to the weather. A tonne, if not the majority of muley hunters late season just hang out on the fringe between winter range and fall range. This year, the snow didn't push the bucks down far enough.....and viola, bitching and moaning the sky is falling.

I had a couple guys parked near my truck at the end of the day singing and dancing that old tune. I had just come off the mountain and had a pretty good day. Lots of deer, a few bucks, pretty standard. These guys had been driving around the bottom all day working on a box of Timmy's and lower lumbar problems.

Point is, those guys tend to be the ones who like to sit and talk on the side of the road and tell tales of whoa. Those stories get transmitted via coffee shop and here we sit. Putting out the flames.

Glad you're on the program; welcome to the life of being frustrated. Hopefully the direction is on making more critters instead of the decades old approach of bandaids that don't achieve anything.

[GoatGuy]

Hey Steve haven't seen anything decent from you out of the last few years? Whats your latest excuse? Kids, wolves, LML hunters...maybe start climbing those hills...lol

If its dark and it stinks you need to start evaluating where you're looking.

[fireguy]

Recommended place to start reading:

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/ds/docs/070607_HunterRecruitment-RetentionStrategy.pdf

Now if the MOE would just do some of the things they are recommending, that would be a start.

[dana]

Hey Steve haven't seen anything decent from you out of the last few years? Whats your latest excuse? Kids, wolves, LML hunters...maybe start climbing those hills...lol

Maybe you missed this one from 2010. ;) Biggest typical I've ever seen hit the ground. I don't care if I'm not the trigger man. Whether it is me, my family or my friends, it is pretty damn exciting watching big bucks die. BTW that same week I tagged out on a flippin old regressed monster that I had on my hitlist for years. And another friend dropped a really nice nontypical that week too. So no excuses from our group. :)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/150525_10150315149475005_566330004_15748186_506730 0_n.jpg

[goinghunting]

I sincerely hope you've never been to a doctor, lawyer,or dealt with anyone who isn't a witch. That is the only way you can support you're argument.

My advice is magic only exists in story books. Leave the nimrod approach and start dealing with science. Ask the right questions.

How do we increase the deer population? After 15 years of no doe season why aren't here deer running everywhere ?

Getting rid of an any buck season will not make more mule deer. You're dealing with symptoms, not the problem.

Wow no wonder your not able ot see through the smoke and mirrors, you are telling me to believe what lawyers say! hey while were at it lets start believing everyword that politicians tell us you got it figured goat guy!

I do wanna fix our mule deer population in the west kootenays. We are not region 8 or region 3 we have a very fragile population that never bounced back from the bad winter of 96/97. Our does haven't been hunted for years and still are numbers aren't thriving so you tell me whats going on? Obviously predatation is an issue so yes we all need to get out there and kill some predators in the off season. You have a large group of cat hunters that don't want to kill alot of cats because they want cats to hunt totally understandable, just the same as us mule deer hunters but opposite. Mainy very successful muledeer hunters from this region have noticed the low numbers and screaming about it for years. The last 2 years with GOS elk has just been the straw that broke the camels back, we've had any buck seasons for a number of years now and haven't seen an increase in bucks we've seen a decrease! So why don't you suggest a solution that partanes to the west kootenays in specefic!

Now you've got FD posting a ton of pols surveys etc probably from groups of hunters he's talked to in regions that don't have deer number problems so obviously there concern isn't finding deer its being able to harvest them. So rather then posting your generalized studies, lets see a study from region 4 and specififcally the west kootenays and some deer counts. I and many others do believe our numbers are extremely low if these counts and studies prove me wrong then I will gladly shut my mouth.

Dana I've seen the caliber of bucks you have taken in the past and respect your insight into how to hunt muledeer. I however do not need a lesson, myself and my group have been equally or more successful then you have so if a cock fight is what your looking for I'll gladly start posting pics. Most of our trophy bucks have come from region 8 over the years granted, obviously we go to were the numbers are! This is not an issue of knowing how to kill bucks or when to kill bucks. I do see your killing off the good genetics issue, killing all the genetics isn't helping either though? What would you suggest to do in west kootenays, not based on what is happening in region 3 where you have a vastly different area, with a very different make-up. If your theory was right we should adopt saskatchewans management strategy's there the ones producing. We have different issues then they do and different dynamics so we must manage our deer differently?

Yes ther are still deer being harvested in the west kootenays and there are some good bucks around there always will be no matter how low the numbers get if your willing to put the time and efffort in.

We protect fragile populations of sheep and elk with horn restrictions why should it be any different for mule deer? If you would like a more radical and get right to the root of the problem approach I'm all for it! lets start controlling predator numbers by helicopter in the winter. lets shutdown vehicle acces to the back country, lets make quads only used for retrievel like some parts of alberta, lets shut down mule deer hunting in the rut. This works for me, this however isn't gonna help keep old hunters interested or get newbie's in on the game. I am not suggesting 4 pt or better for only myself! And am more the nwilling to listen to other ideas that partane to the west kootenays!

I will quit commenting on the east kootenays and stick only with the west. I do hunt in the east kootenays but I will leave that topic up to the locals that have there thumbs on the pulse. The East and west kootenay portions of region 4 are very different and also pose different problems.

[houndogger]

Maybe you missed this one from 2010. ;) Biggest typical I've ever seen hit the ground. I don't care if I'm not the trigger man. Whether it is me, my family or my friends, it is pretty damn exciting watching big bucks die. BTW that same week I tagged out on a flippin old regressed monster that I had on my hitlist for years. And another friend dropped a really nice nontypical that week too. So no excuses from our group. :)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/150525_10150315149475005_566330004_15748186_506730 0_n.jpg
Yes I did! Nice.

[dana]

Going hunting,
By all means post up your pics of the big bucks your group has killed. There is a great thread going on about Big Bucks killed in BC that you could post them in.

As for the rest of your post, predators do have a major impact yes. That is a no brainer. But you know the political climate in this province. The vast majority of voters live in the concrete jungles of the lower mainland and they believe the great outdoors is a walk up the Grouse Grind. They eat granola and love David Suzuki. It would be political suicide for any major party to propose the shooting of wolves from planes and helicopters. Like it or not, that is what we have to live with in this modern society of ecofreaks. Cougar pops are on the increase and yes cat hunters have as much right to hunt their desired quarry as mule deer hunters have to hunted theirs. So do ya think that the guys that know how to tree lions aren't going to squak if the powers that be significantly bump up the quota on female harvest? Many cat hunters are in it for the dogs and the chase. They are just as happy treeing a cat and taking some pics and walking away and letting it live another day as I am doing the same with big bucks that ain't quite big enough. Nothing wrong with that. They want something to chase and we kill off all the lions, we are killing off another segment of our hunting faternity that we need on our side. This ain't about an us and them. This ain't about trophy hunters versus meat hunters versus bowhunters versus hounders versus blah blah blah. In our current society, hunters need to stick together and work together. Otherwise we will loose it all.
So what can you do? Hope and pray for a good hot summer with a lot of lightning. ;) And take solice in the fact the biggest bucks killed in North America are usually killed in areas of low deer pops. It is just like big fish. Too many fish in a lake and you have lots of fishing action but no big fish. Same idea. I avoid areas where the vast majority of hunters hunt because that is where the bucks don't grow up. In the areas I hunt, I can have days where I don't even see a single deer let alone a shooter buck. I put a ton of time and effort into my homework and it sees results because of that homework. Trophy hunting is 99% a head game. If you are feeling sorry for yourself and are walking around kicking rocks, you have lost that game.

[Trophyslayer]

Wow no wonder your not able ot see through the smoke and mirrors, you are telling me to believe what lawyers say! hey while were at it lets start believing everyword that politicians tell us you got it figured goat guy!

I do wanna fix our mule deer population in the west kootenays. We are not region 8 or region 3 we have a very fragile population that never bounced back from the bad winter of 96/97. Our does haven't been hunted for years and still are numbers aren't thriving so you tell me whats going on? Obviously predatation is an issue so yes we all need to get out there and kill some predators in the off season. You have a large group of cat hunters that don't want to kill alot of cats because they want cats to hunt totally understandable, just the same as us mule deer hunters but opposite. Mainy very successful muledeer hunters from this region have noticed the low numbers and screaming about it for years. The last 2 years with GOS elk has just been the straw that broke the camels back, we've had any buck seasons for a number of years now and haven't seen an increase in bucks we've seen a decrease! So why don't you suggest a solution that partanes to the west kootenays in specefic!

Now you've got FD posting a ton of pols surveys etc probably from groups of hunters he's talked to in regions that don't have deer number problems so obviously there concern isn't finding deer its being able to harvest them. So rather then posting your generalized studies, lets see a study from region 4 and specififcally the west kootenays and some deer counts. I and many others do believe our numbers are extremely low if these counts and studies prove me wrong then I will gladly shut my mouth.

Dana I've seen the caliber of bucks you have taken in the past and respect your insight into how to hunt muledeer. I however do not need a lesson, myself and my group have been equally or more successful then you have so if a cock fight is what your looking for I'll gladly start posting pics. Most of our trophy bucks have come from region 8 over the years granted, obviously we go to were the numbers are! This is not an issue of knowing how to kill bucks or when to kill bucks. I do see your killing off the good genetics issue, killing all the genetics isn't helping either though? What would you suggest to do in west kootenays, not based on what is happening in region 3 where you have a vastly different area, with a very different make-up. If your theory was right we should adopt saskatchewans management strategy's there the ones producing. We have different issues then they do and different dynamics so we must manage our deer differently?

Yes ther are still deer being harvested in the west kootenays and there are some good bucks around there always will be no matter how low the numbers get if your willing to put the time and efffort in.

We protect fragile populations of sheep and elk with horn restrictions why should it be any different for mule deer? If you would like a more radical and get right to the root of the problem approach I'm all for it! lets start controlling predator numbers by helicopter in the winter. lets shutdown vehicle acces to the back country, lets make quads only used for retrievel like some parts of alberta, lets shut down mule deer hunting in the rut. This works for me, this however isn't gonna help keep old hunters interested or get newbie's in on the game. I am not suggesting 4 pt or better for only myself! And am more the nwilling to listen to other ideas that partane to the west kootenays!

I will quit commenting on the east kootenays and stick only with the west. I do hunt in the east kootenays but I will leave that topic up to the locals that have there thumbs on the pulse. The East and west kootenay portions of region 4 are very different and also pose different problems.

I think we all wanna see!!!

[GoatGuy]

Wow no wonder your not able ot see through the smoke and mirrors, you are telling me to believe what lawyers say! hey while were at it lets start believing everyword that politicians tell us you got it figured goat guy!

I do wanna fix our mule deer population in the west kootenays. We are not region 8 or region 3 we have a very fragile population that never bounced back from the bad winter of 96/97. Our does haven't been hunted for years and still are numbers aren't thriving so you tell me whats going on? Obviously predatation is an issue so yes we all need to get out there and kill some predators in the off season. You have a large group of cat hunters that don't want to kill alot of cats because they want cats to hunt totally understandable, just the same as us mule deer hunters but opposite. Mainy very successful muledeer hunters from this region have noticed the low numbers and screaming about it for years. The last 2 years with GOS elk has just been the straw that broke the camels back, we've had any buck seasons for a number of years now and haven't seen an increase in bucks we've seen a decrease! So why don't you suggest a solution that partanes to the west kootenays in specefic!

Now you've got FD posting a ton of pols surveys etc probably from groups of hunters he's talked to in regions that don't have deer number problems so obviously there concern isn't finding deer its being able to harvest them. So rather then posting your generalized studies, lets see a study from region 4 and specififcally the west kootenays and some deer counts. I and many others do believe our numbers are extremely low if these counts and studies prove me wrong then I will gladly shut my mouth.

Dana I've seen the caliber of bucks you have taken in the past and respect your insight into how to hunt muledeer. I however do not need a lesson, myself and my group have been equally or more successful then you have so if a cock fight is what your looking for I'll gladly start posting pics. Most of our trophy bucks have come from region 8 over the years granted, obviously we go to were the numbers are! This is not an issue of knowing how to kill bucks or when to kill bucks. I do see your killing off the good genetics issue, killing all the genetics isn't helping either though? What would you suggest to do in west kootenays, not based on what is happening in region 3 where you have a vastly different area, with a very different make-up. If your theory was right we should adopt saskatchewans management strategy's there the ones producing. We have different issues then they do and different dynamics so we must manage our deer differently?

Yes ther are still deer being harvested in the west kootenays and there are some good bucks around there always will be no matter how low the numbers get if your willing to put the time and efffort in.

We protect fragile populations of sheep and elk with horn restrictions why should it be any different for mule deer? If you would like a more radical and get right to the root of the problem approach I'm all for it! lets start controlling predator numbers by helicopter in the winter. lets shutdown vehicle acces to the back country, lets make quads only used for retrievel like some parts of alberta, lets shut down mule deer hunting in the rut. This works for me, this however isn't gonna help keep old hunters interested or get newbie's in on the game. I am not suggesting 4 pt or better for only myself! And am more the nwilling to listen to other ideas that partane to the west kootenays!

I will quit commenting on the east kootenays and stick only with the west. I do hunt in the east kootenays but I will leave that topic up to the locals that have there thumbs on the pulse. The East and west kootenay portions of region 4 are very different and also pose different problems.

All the research from the WK says shoot white-tails and shoot a pile of cats if you want more mule deer.

Pretty simple stuff.

[7mm magnum]

Just back from a trip to 6.1 on a bull draw got one not the second.Weather very warm this year.That was not the problem though it was the logging.We have been going to a spot for years and almost cried when we got there it had been logged around 2 of the best lakes and they were still in there clearing more and had plans to log the 3rd this winter.The wolves in the area had fresh sign every where and the track was extremely large.Loggers were saying they were seeing packs in the 40 and 50 range.One guy was saying a pack came in after his dog.In our 14 days 90% of cows had no calfs.We need better forest management with what they have cleared for pine beatle and another wolf cull.They were clearing winter range.