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Ian F.
12-29-2010, 09:55 AM
Took some of the questions from NitWits thread and brought them over here.....

I did a little math this morning...

The unit of measure of impact, and it's infered leathality is foot pounds of energy. That is what is transfered to the object hit by the projectile. The formula isn't too hard and I even found a website that does the calcs. Energy = Weight times Velocity Squared divided by 450395 (fixed constant) http://www.reloadammo.com/footpound2.htm

So with a little time on excel this morning I made the following table that covers most of the common velocities and weights in steel shells.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/ftlbse-table.jpg

So what's this all mean?

There are some relationships, as follows
1. increases in velocity increases ft lbs of energy for a given weight of payload
2. increases in payload weight increases ft lbs of energy for a given velocity

Looking only at the ft lbs of energy numbers you can see a relationship where as you decrease velocity you can increase payload and maintain the same impact value. So a 1oz load going 1600fps (168ftlbs) is nearly the same as 1 1/2oz load going 1300fps.

So what's the big deal, why give a damn?

If you consider the actual projectiles and how many are going at the target then with the example above you have a 50% increase in potential killing pellets. The math....for #3's, that's 154 vs 231, which would you rather have on target?

Also, if you look at the numbers, and not the marketing you'll often find excellent shells that are not bank breakers! For instance my personal favourite duck load is a 2 3/4" 1 1/4oz going 1300ish fps by kent, $20 to $30 a case cheaper then the same thing in 3", wow that quarter inch of plastic can be pricey!

What's this really mean?

Use numbers to know where you are, and then your experience to know if you like that place or not.

There are many factors that come into play beyond this, which always makes for great discussion...choke? shooting distance? species? early season thin bird vs late season fat and fully feathered.

So at the end of the day, shoot as many pellets as you can, as fast as you can, providing you can hit the target, because the we can't forget about about Newtons second law..every action has an equal and opposite reaction....that's right recoil, and that is felt by each of us differently....

Some grissel to chew on....

Very best,

Ian

http://www.waterfowlzone.com/Hunting/shotgunpellets.htm

835
12-29-2010, 10:01 AM
Ian, I know you are going somewhere with this but the first bit doesnt make sense.

The chain of numbers?

Ian F.
12-29-2010, 10:32 AM
that's more better....

the tables went wonky and then I couldn't save the changes...

Ian

835
12-29-2010, 10:38 AM
More better!!

HuntNHookSports
12-29-2010, 12:24 PM
But...
The energy of each pellet only varies with velocity and is independent of total payload.

heyblast
12-29-2010, 12:41 PM
The chart would be correct for solid projectiles, increased mass=increase in lbs of energy. It dosn't work for shot,a #3 pellet at a given mozzle velocity is the same regardless if it is 1oz or 1 1/2 oz or what ever the weight. The weight of a #3 pellet is a constant and a 1oz load is a total of individual pellets not a solid mass. Also the density of steel is less then lead so at 1300 ft/s muzzle velocity [which is faster than a lot of the lead loads a number of us learnt on] , what is the velocity at 20yds. and retained energy of #3 shot, is it the same as lead, is it still faster or is slower? What is the retained energy of #3 at 1500 ft/s muzzle velocity at the same range. More importantly what are the retained ft/lbs of energy at 40 yds for these velocities. Our individual methods of hunting decides shot size, weight and velocity, it's what works for you. I'm not meaning to criticize your thoughts on shotshell choice, it's an individual choice, but I find it frustrating that there dosn't seem to be any clear information beyond muzzle velocity and shot size to tell us what is happening at the different effective ranges for shot.

HuntNHookSports
12-29-2010, 12:47 PM
A lot of good info here:
http://www.deltawaterfowl.org/media/magazine/archive/2005-01/shooting.php#

Ian F.
12-29-2010, 02:53 PM
yes, but collectively, and at the point of muzzle exit they do approximate those numbers if all the pellets struck at the same time. Read a place for comparison and discussion.

I have older data for lead at down range distances, but the same for steel is largely lacking. Also i doubt any shell manufacturer is going to provide this too us as it counters most of their marketing programs.

The factors beyond theory get too numerous for absolute certainty, however those numbers and the point was a place of comparison based in data, not here say.

What gets missed by most, most often is that velocity is velocity and payload is payload, whether it comes from a 2 3/4" 20ga or a 3 1/2" 10ga.

Very best,

Ian

PS Lets not forget about sphericality of the shot, the density, size and weight and many other factors

PPS again... So at the end of the day, shoot as many pellets as you can, as fast as you can, providing you can hit the target, because the we can't forget about about Newtons second law..every action has an equal and opposite reaction....that's right recoil, and that is felt by each of us differently....

NitwiT
12-29-2010, 03:15 PM
thanks for all the insight guys!

f350ps
12-29-2010, 06:39 PM
It's not that complicated, speed kills. I'll say it again, pattern a few different fast shells in your gun then see how they kill birds, then stick to them. K

Chessieguy
12-29-2010, 06:40 PM
All good info...and while its always been a topic that seemes to never gave a cut and dry answer, I will throw in 2 things that I believe relevent.
1. Patterning the shot, it makes more sense to me to know how a certain shotshell shoots from a particular shotgun/choke combo. A couple of shells to learn a lot.
2. Consistancy, going from a shell that shoots pellets at 1560 fps to one that is only 1425 will have an affect on the lead required, so something to consider.

Have fun...

f350ps
12-29-2010, 06:44 PM
All good info...and while its always been a topic that seemes to never gave a cut and dry answer, I will throw in 2 things that I believe relevent.
1. Patterning the shot, it makes more sense to me to know how a certain shotshell shoots from a particular shotgun/choke combo. A couple of shells to learn a lot.
2. Consistancy, going from a shell that shoots pellets at 1560 fps to one that is only 1425 will have an affect on the lead required, so something to consider.

Have fun...
Thank-you, kinda what I was driving at. K

field marshal
12-29-2010, 06:50 PM
Well I'll be????:confused:
I guess all those slow loads I'm shooting are actually scaring ducks to death?:wink:
Cheers---Field Marshal.

Crazy_Farmer
12-29-2010, 07:16 PM
Well I'll be????:confused:
I guess all those slow loads I'm shooting are actually scaring ducks to death?:wink:
Cheers---Field Marshal.

Maybe you're not shooting all those ducks.... Maybe it's all the people you invite are shooting your birds. :tongue::tongue: