Anybody read the Valley Newspaper?

[Seeadler]

I don't normally grab the newspapers (they pile up too fast), but since there was a mule deer on the cover I did.

The author of the article (FJ Hurtak) was commenting on the changes to the EK seasons this past year. Seems if he had his way, there would be point restrictions on both Mule Deer (4 point) and Whitetails (3 point)! and return of the WK elk to LEH.

Apparently, without a 4 point rule all season long, Mule Deer are doomed to LEH. Seems there was a slaughter in October (500% increase according to unnamed meatcutters with no numbers to tell us what 500% means). He blames the old "any buck" season with the decline in Mule Deer numbers without mentioning the winter's of the mid 90's.

Anybody read this article and care to comment in a rational and scientific way on what he writes? I don't know much about the man, although I own one of his books. What is his angle?

[fourbyfour]

what paper? and date?
thx

[Old Crow]

I do own his book about elk in the east koots, and he was nice enough to sign it for me. I'd like to hear more as well. I know he's very knowledgeable about hunting, and very experienced, and a nice guy. Let's see how this thread unfolds, shall we? I see Goatguy and FisherDude chipping in, at least :D

[palmer]

The biggest problem with all these threads is we have no quality numbers. We need complete harvest stats including First nation numbers, with both pre and post hunt population figures. What we get is personal opinion and meat cutter numbers and the ministry giving us populatiuon guesses. Without facts and proper numbers we are all guessing. With more funding cuts we will see less and less proper numbers and more seasons based on best guesses.

[GoatGuy]

Not worth reading.

[GoatGuy]

The biggest problem with all these threads is we have no quality numbers. We need complete harvest stats including First nation numbers, with both pre and post hunt population figures. What we get is personal opinion and meat cutter numbers and the ministry giving us populatiuon guesses. Without facts and proper numbers we are all guessing. With more funding cuts we will see less and less proper numbers and more seasons based on best guesses.

They've been flying moose, mule deer and elk pretty regularly in the EK, certainly the most 'monitored' region in the Province.

We have pretty good numbers.

[Everett]

He is a trophy hunter and has a huge case of nimby. I enjoy his books and own both but the recent article in the valley was absolute crap. His claim that the man on the street wants a return to the old regs is rubbish. By his own admission the butchers were swamped whats that tell you? The man on the street is very happy with his full freezer. There is no conservation concerns with the present seasons at this time in truth they will probaly have to continue to liberelize the seasons to keep up with the growth in ungulate population in the EK. My advice to to Mr Hurtak is to stick to what he is good at writing funny hunting stories and leave wildlife management to the pros. The comment about how none of his outfitter buddies like the mule deer season is best line of course they hate seasons were residents are succesful thats one less buck to sell to a fat yank. As if anyone trusts outfitters in the kootenays, there is exception but the local GOABC are a pretty slimey bunch.
Anyway you asked so thats my 2 cents

[hunter1947]

I agree with FJ-Hurtak on one thing when they the management opened up the mule deer for any antlered mule buck in region 4 this year.

I did not agree with this in the first place ,I said when they the management opened up in region 4 for any antlered buck that the numbers would drop severely.

As far as I am concerned the mule deer numbers are not up to caring capacity in region 4 for a GOS for any antlered mule deer buck..

I believed that it would reduce the number of bucks severely as for what FJ-Hurtak has stated..

One thing management should target is better predator control they are on the increase in region 4 and something should be done to control them..

[Savage Man]

Well Boy's I work with alot and I mean alot of hunters and am friends with alot of other guys and to a man they have all said that the any buck season on mulies is the biggest crock of crap we have seen in the kootenay's in quite some time.
I personally would be in favour of a three point or better on whitie buck's as well ,it seems to me our buck to doe ratio is a little out to lunch. As for the west kootenay Elk I have never hunted over in that part of the province so I can't comment on that.
Oh and by the way I wouldn't consider myself a trophy hunter I like bone but I like meat more.

[Fisher-Dude]

Hurtak said the same thing BEFORE the season opened. So, if you want to believe him this time, go right ahead.

Seems he has been dead set against proper management of game animals all along, including mule deer whose population numbers can't be affected by buck only seasons, and is now pulling conjecture out of his ass trying to justify his first spew of bullshit pre-season.

NIMBY dope.

And, Savage Man, you need to do some reading on game management, big time. Especially whitetailed deer. You're lost.

[AT&T]

Well Boy's I work with alot and I mean alot of hunters and am friends with alot of other guys and to a man they have all said that the any buck season on mulies is the biggest crock of crap we have seen in the kootenay's in quite some time.
I personally would be in favour of a three point or better on whitie buck's as well ,it seems to me our buck to doe ratio is a little out to lunch. As for the west kootenay Elk I have never hunted over in that part of the province so I can't comment on that.
Oh and by the way I wouldn't consider myself a trophy hunter I like bone but I like meat more.

With my work I have been involved with alot of game counts in the EK. From a wildlife carrying capacity you cant even put the EK and WK in same sentence. The EK has us in the WK beaten hands down. In most of the WK getting a good count on wildlife is next to impossible due to terrain forest types etc. Best ideas we have in the WK are hunter opinion. Any mule deer buck around Kootenay lake is just dumb. Anyone from here remember mule deer numbers back in the 80's early 90's. They were everywhere. Any buck and does draws were almost garaunteed. We also had cow calf permits as well. That came to a screaching halt and numbers dropped. The six point season on Elk from my limited knowlege works pretty good from a management point of view. Might not be good for filling a freezer though. The only problem I see with 6 point is that some bulls can be over score over 300, old enough to have 6 points but remain 5 points. Not sure how important that is or not. Iti is possible the reason we in the WK shot more bulls this year is incresed pressure from removing the LEH of course. I think mule deer should stay 4 point. Whitetail will survive with out horn restrctions. Especially now that we can only shoot one whitetail buck over here. I dont remember us every being cut down to one buck.
my two cents.

[hunter1947]

With my work I have been involved with alot of game counts in the EK. From a wildlife carrying capacity you cant even put the EK and WK in same sentence. The EK has us in the WK beaten hands down. In most of the WK getting a good count on wildlife is next to impossible due to terrain forest types etc. Best ideas we have in the WK are hunter opinion. Any mule deer buck around Kootenay lake is just dumb. Anyone from here remember mule deer numbers back in the 80's early 90's. They were everywhere. Any buck and does draws were almost garaunteed. We also had cow calf permits as well. That came to a screaching halt and numbers dropped. The six point season on Elk from my limited knowlege works pretty good from a management point of view. Might not be good for filling a freezer though. The only problem I see with 6 point is that some bulls can be over score over 300, old enough to have 6 points but remain 5 points. Not sure how important that is or not. Iti is possible the reason we in the WK shot more bulls this year is incresed pressure from removing the LEH of course. pointI think mule deer should stay 4 . Whitetail will survive with out horn restrctions. Especially now that we can only shoot one whitetail buck over here. I dont remember us every being cut down to one buck.
my two cents.
I agree on your statement on 4 point mule deer ,the WT repopulate faster then mule deer so the WT can withstand more pressher then that of mule deer..

I talked to a CO about this mule deer no point rustications this fall and he said it was kind of a grey area to him ,he said one good thing about having a no point restriction for mule deer is that they will be cleaning out the bucks that will never have a good jean pool..

[6616]

It's not like we haven't hashed this over several times already is it..?

I'd just like to ask you guys if you see any sign of over-grazing of the habitat out there, especially the winter ranges? The habitat is what's important, not the herd numbers. We need to ensure we don't damage the habitat from over-grazing, and with elk and WTD at all time highs that could be done very easily right now and it could take 20 or 30 years for those ranges to recover.

Right now with the combined cattle, elk, white tailed deer, and mule deer numbers we don't have room for more animals, we may already have too many animals. Not to exonerate ranchers, but cattle numbers are down and we all know what's happened with elk and WTD numbers over the last ten years or so. The only way to get more mule deer is to cut down the numbers of the other species competing for forage and space. Antler restrictions like FJ likes will not accomplish that objective.

Mule deer might not be up to previous levels but are probably at carrying capacity considering elk and WTD numbers. Mule deer are the weaker of the three competitors and recover slower from population lows. Do you think the 4pt antler restriction heps recover mule deer populations? Well if that's supposed to work why are the mule deer populations still lower than traditional levels? After all we've been on that "so called" recovery strategy that FJ recommends for nearly 20 years now. As a recovery strategy it's not working anyway.

The proper density for mule deer, elk and WTD is about 55 to 65% of carrying capacity, why do people think they should be at 100% carrying capacity all the time. That's counter-productive..! Herds at 100% carrying capacity are stressed, have very low reproduction rates, high natural mortality rates, and sustainable hunter harvest levels are very low. The maximum sustainable harvest levels are when densities are within the above 55% to 65% recommended ranges, not at 100% of carrying capacity.

This winter may teach us a hard lesson. Herds being maintained at or near carrying capacity are too vulnerable to winter kill. If there's a huge winter kill it will be easy to blame these new seasons, but the real reason will be the population densities.

I've also heard from many hunters who oppose the new seasons, but it really doesn't matter what hunters think or want, hunters are not wildlife biologists. The health of the herds and the health of the habitat is what's really important, and that's what management is reacting too....! Keeping hunters happy is secondary. The Region 4 senior biologist is one of the best and highest respected in the province, has reams and reams of data to support the new seasons, and spends more time afield than most hunters,,,,, why do we hunters always think we know better than him...?

[Old Crow]

Because it's easy to criticize from a keyboard?
Just sayin'........

[bridger]

we had a 4pt only mule deer season in 7b for 35 years in fact for a while we could only harvest one 4pt every two years. personally i bought into it but in reality that support was a mistake and the 4pt only season was an unmitigated disaster. it was brought about by a few "we want big trophy bucks only" supporters and a couple of influential guys in the moe. it got so bad that the only 4pt bucks we had to harvest were small two or three year old bucks. at the end of the season it was really difficult to find a 4pt on the winter ranges. thousands of mule deer and no big bucks. now that we have undergone a regulation change we are again seeing big mule deer bucks in 7b. might be different in the ek,.and a 4pt only season may be short term solution while populations build, but the 35 years of it was a disaster in the peace.

[6616]

we had a 4pt only mule deer season in 7b for 35 years in fact for a while we could only harvest one 4pt every two years. personally i bought into it but in reality that support was a mistake and the 4pt only season was an unmitigated disaster. it was brought about by a few "we want big trophy bucks only" supporters and a couple of influential guys in the moe. it got so bad that the only 4pt bucks we had to harvest were small two or three year old bucks. at the end of the season it was really difficult to find a 4pt on the winter ranges. thousands of mule deer and no big bucks. now that we have undergone a regulation change we are again seeing big mule deer bucks in 7b. might be different in the ek,.and a 4pt only season may be short term solution while populations build, but the 35 years of it was a disaster in the peace.

I do not see it being any different in the EK or anywhere else in BC for that matter. While we didn't always know this result, biologists are now aware from experiences like you describe that antler point restrictions over long periods of time carry that inherent risk potential. That's now considered basic biological fact, and it applies equally to elk and white tailed deer as well. We live and learn....I hope...!

[ydouask]

It's not like we haven't hashed this over several times already is it..?

I'd just like to ask you guys if you see any sign of over-grazing of the habitat out there, especially the winter ranges? The habitat is what's important, not the herd numbers. We need to ensure we don't damage the habitat from over-grazing, and with elk and WTD at all time highs that could be done very easily right now and it could take 20 or 30 years for those ranges to recover.

Right now with the combined cattle, elk, white tailed deer, and mule deer numbers we don't have room for more animals, we may already have too many animals. Not to exonerate ranchers, but cattle numbers are down and we all know what's happened with elk and WTD numbers over the last ten years or so. The only way to get more mule deer is to cut down the numbers of the other species competing for forage and space. Antler restrictions like FJ likes will not accomplish that objective.

Mule deer might not be up to previous levels but are probably at carrying capacity considering elk and WTD numbers. Mule deer are the weaker of the three competitors and recover slower from population lows. Do you think the 4pt antler restriction heps recover mule deer populations? Well if that's supposed to work why are the mule deer populations still lower than traditional levels? After all we've been on that "so called" recovery strategy that FJ recommends for nearly 20 years now. As a recovery strategy it's not working anyway.

The proper density for mule deer, elk and WTD is about 55 to 65% of carrying capacity, why do people think they should be at 100% carrying capacity all the time. That's counter-productive..! Herds at 100% carrying capacity are stressed, have very low reproduction rates, high natural mortality rates, and sustainable hunter harvest levels are very low. The maximum sustainable harvest levels are when densities are within the above 55% to 65% recommended ranges, not at 100% of carrying capacity.

This winter may teach us a hard lesson. Herds being maintained at or near carrying capacity are too vulnerable to winter kill. If there's a huge winter kill it will be easy to blame these new seasons, but the real reason will be the population densities.

I've also heard from many hunters who oppose the new seasons, but it really doesn't matter what hunters think or want, hunters are not wildlife biologists. The health of the herds and the health of the habitat is what's really important, and that's what management is reacting too....! Keeping hunters happy is secondary. The Region 4 senior biologist is one of the best and highest respected in the province, has reams and reams of data to support the new seasons, and spends more time afield than most hunters,,,,, why do we hunters always think we know better than him...?


:) X2 I couldn't agree more. Thank you for your clear thoughts.

[Everett]

So if you don't believe in any buck seasons why did you shoot a two point sounds a little hypocitical.


I agree with FJ-Hurtak on one thing when they the management opened up the mule deer for any antlered mule buck in region 4 this year.

I did not agree with this in the first place ,I said when they the management opened up in region 4 for any antlered buck that the numbers would drop severely.

As far as I am concerned the mule deer numbers are not up to caring capacity in region 4 for a GOS for any antlered mule deer buck..

I believed that it would reduce the number of bucks severely as for what FJ-Hurtak has stated..

One thing management should target is better predator control they are on the increase in region 4 and something should be done to control them..

[Everett]

You want more mule deer kill more wt does and cow elk and while your at it start a forest fire in the trench. We do not have enough winter range for the animals we have without some more winter range we can not increase the herd past its present size.
I don't understand the idea of point restrictions on WT deer we are over run by WT deer in the EK. We should be increasing the bag limit on WT deer to three that will do more to help the MD than anything else.

[GoatGuy]

Best ideas we have in the WK are hunter opinion.

That would be a tough pill to swallow. Have you read the newspapers over the about the 'elk slaughter'?

The hunter opinion in the WK is usually far removed from reality.

[6616]

You want more mule deer kill more wt does and cow elk and while your at it start a forest fire in the trench. We do not have enough winter range for the animals we have without some more winter range we can not increase the herd past its present size.
I don't understand the idea of point restrictions on WT deer we are over run by WT deer in the EK. We should be increasing the bag limit on WT deer to three that will do more to help the MD than anything else.

Right on...!

[Husky7mm]

Surpisingly I saw a fair number of small mulie bucks after the OCT hunt, I dont think it was a slaughter. I did however see alot of people who thought the any buck season was a mistake end up shooting small bucks, go figure :roll:
If the liberal whitetail and elk season helps the mulie numbers and habitat thats great. And if the any buck season helps the mature buck carry over and gets rid of some of the big 2-3 point genes thats great too.
I have to disagree on the winter range issue. Many areas I stomp around in winter have lots of untouched grass and browes under the forest canopy. The only ugulates utilizing the area were a small handful of mulies. Many ugulates winter outside of the trench and do just fine.
I have noticed that many ugulates leave high quaility habitat long before winters grip. If the competition for food was so great I dont think they would do this.
As for the mother of all winters Dr Geist says snow is the mule deers friend not enemy, mulie deer will fair better than the elk and whitetail will. What do you think goats do in the winter? They find wind swept hills or browse conifer trees under the forrest canopy.

Anyways they're increaseing winter range as we speak. Some of the range that has been opened up is not even being utilized by deer or elk yet.

[hunter1947]

So if you don't believe in any buck seasons why did you shoot a two point sounds a little hypocitical.

Why do I shoot small bucks to better the jean pool a two point buck will not carry a good jean pool if he mates with a doe leave the big guys to do the breading..

[hunter1947]

To help bring back mule deer they the management should open up a 3 point elk season as for a two buck WT season this goes for WT doe as well ,this will help the give more habitat that is needed.

In the past 5 years I have seen more five points then ever before opening up a three point season will help take the pressher off the herd bulls and doing this will better the jene pool..

I am sure that the effects of a 6 point season in the last 10 years has interfered with the jene pool and that is why we are seeing so many five point t bull.

What I saw in the region I hunted this year and I was in there for 3 months is the number of mule deer are declining more every year..

[Husky7mm]

Wayne a 2 point 1.5 yr old buck has the same genes he will when he is 2.5 or 3.5 yrs old 4 pointer.
The area you hunt USED to be a good mule spot but that was a long time ago. I think you can blame predation, in growth and overhunting. Redneck poachers talk about going down to the gilnockie back in the day and coming back with 5 mulies each.:cry: Since then the mulie population down there was replaced by elk and whitetails.

[hunter1947]

Wayne a 2 point 1.5 yr old buck has the same genes he will when he is 2.5 or 3.5 yrs old 4 pointer.
The area you hunt USED to be a good mule spot but that was a long time ago. I think you can blame predation, in growth and overhunting. Redneck poachers talk about going down to the gilnockie back in the day and coming back with 5 mulies each.:cry: Since then the mulie population down there was replaced by elk and whitetails.

Please tell my how a 2 year old mule deer can be a better breader then that of a muture buck ???.

A big buck will eat more then a 2 year old mule deer as well.

I have hunted teepee creek as for the koocanusa for many years and I see the mule deer poulation is about the same as where I hunt in 4 ..

[6616]

Why do I shoot small bucks to better the jean pool a two point buck will not carry a good jean pool if he mates with a doe leave the big guys to do the breading..

Remember what Dana said in the genetics thread, a top quality buck will be a small four point in his yearling year of life and yearling spikes have poor genes. Following that same thread of thought a yearling fork horn has better genetics than a yearling spike but still not great genetics. So it follows (I agree) that shooting spikes and forkies will improve the gene pool as you said above. It also then follows that saving the forks and spikes and killing that first year 4pt that has great genetics will eventually weaken the gene pool. And that little 4pt will get killed because he's still young and stupid, and that's really the whole flaw in antler point restrictions.

So you killed that buck because you want to improve the genetics,,,, so if improving the genetics is your objective what then is wrong with the any buck season, it must be a good thing, why do you oppose it...??? It certainly sounds contradictory to oppose the season yet still shoot the small buck yourself does it not..? Maybe everyone that shot a small buck was also trying to improve the genetics...!

Truth is the objective of the any buck season has nothing at all to do with genetics, it's only got to do with maximizing sustainable harvest levels. If we can harvest those small bucks and keep the buck doe ratio at or above 20 bucks per 100 does it's sustainable. Shooting bucks, big or small, has nothing to do with population growth or decline as long as that buck/doe ratio is maintained.

Also Husky7mm is correct, letting a buck get older before he breeds does not change the genes he will pass on. The genes a buck is born with are the genes a buck will die with.

[Islandeer]

Right on...!
Bingo!! Biggest problem with the mulies in the EK are the elk,the whities and lack of winter range. Simple.I think the new any buck muley season will help balance the harvest and eventually help more 4 points mature.

a hunter filling their tag on a fat 3 spike can't shoot a little 4 spike in November now can he!! We need a 3 whitetail bag limit here to thin out the range rats. And our group saw more muley bucks of all sizes this season than most years,not scientific evidance .... just sayin.

[hunter1947]

Remember what Dana said in the genetics thread, a top quality buck will be a small four point in his yearling year of life and yearling spikes have poor genes. Following that same thread of thought a yearling fork horn has better genetics than a yearling spike but still not great genetics. So it follows (I agree) that shooting spikes and forkies will improve the gene pool as you said above.

So if you want to improve the genetics, then what's wrong with the any buck season, it must be a good thing, why do you oppose it...??? It certainly sounds contradictory to oppose the season yet still shoot the small buck yourself does it not..? Maybe everyone that shot a small buck was also trying to improve the genetics...!

Truth is the objective of the any buck season has nothing at all to do with genetics, it's only got to do with maximizing sustainable harvest levels. If we can harvest those small bucks and keep the buck doe ratio at or above 20 bucks per 100 does it's sustainable. Shooting bucks, big or small, has nothing to do with population growth or decline as long as that buck/doe ratio is maintained.

Also Husky7mm is correct, letting a buck get older before he breeds does not change the genes he will pass on. The genes a buck is born with are the genes a buck will die with.


Andy by opening up the any antlered season for a month I would think it would decline the population..

[Islandeer]

Wayne,

Seems like fewer mulies on the Kookanusa side too, hmmmm,buckets of whities and elk though. And for sure way more dinky little spike whities,a sign again of too many animals,and not enough groceries.

Oh well we could get quite the population correction this year and we will be back to where we were after the winter of 96. Then the whining about liberal bag limits will start again. Such a cyclic thing .... ha ha

[BCrams]

Remember what Dana said in the genetics thread, a top quality buck will be a small four point in his yearling year of life and yearling spikes have poor genes. Following that same thread of thought a yearling fork horn has better genetics than a yearling spike but still not great genetics. So it follows (I agree) that shooting spikes and forkies will improve the gene pool as you said above. It also then follows that saving the forks and spikes and killing that first year 4pt that has great genetics will eventually weaken the gene pool. And that little 4pt will get killed because he's still young and stupid, and that's really the whole flaw in antler point restrictions.

So you killed that buck because you want to improve the genetics,,,, so if improving the genetics is your objective what then is wrong with the any buck season, it must be a good thing, why do you oppose it...??? It certainly sounds contradictory to oppose the season yet still shoot the small buck yourself does it not..? Maybe everyone that shot a small buck was also trying to improve the genetics...!

Truth is the objective of the any buck season has nothing at all to do with genetics, it's only got to do with maximizing sustainable harvest levels. If we can harvest those small bucks and keep the buck doe ratio at or above 20 bucks per 100 does it's sustainable. Shooting bucks, big or small, has nothing to do with population growth or decline as long as that buck/doe ratio is maintained.

Also Husky7mm is correct, letting a buck get older before he breeds does not change the genes he will pass on. The genes a buck is born with are the genes a buck will die with.

I tried to tell hunter1947 him in a PM but he wanted me to post up evidence that counters his personal belief that a big mule deer buck changes his genetic make up as he gets older.......

His thought process is a bit out to lunch today so I'm not even going to try to convince him. Even with a simple example regarding humans. Our genetic make up is what were passed on from our parents .......it doesn't change ;)

I read an interesting paper regarding white-tailed deer regarding the shooting of spike / 2 pt bucks to make for better genetic pool.....found it wasn't the case... while the spike / 2 pt bucks were smaller from the get go than say a superior 3 or 4 pt and always lagged behind point and size wise the first few years ..... the spike / 2 pt bucks 'caught up' so to speak size / point wise by the time they reached 5-7 yrs of age ..... the harvest of so called 'inferior' bucks may not always hold true. A controlled environment versus wild and all the variabilities involved make for different results.

[6616]

Andy by opening up the any antlered season for a month I would think it would decline the population..

The Branch plans to monitor mule deer population composition and should the buck doe ratio drop below 20/100 does the any buck season will be shortened or stopped. As long as the buck doe ratio remains at or above 10 to 20 bucks per 100 does, it's impossible for the any buck season to cause a population decline. Population management objectives can only be achieved by manipulationg female harvest, or not harvesting females at all if population expansion is an objective, buck harvest has squat to do with it...!

[6616]

I read an interesting paper regarding white-tailed deer regarding the shooting of spike / 2 pt bucks to make for better genetic pool.....found it wasn't the case... while the spike / 2 pt bucks were smaller from the get go than say a superior 3 or 4 pt and always lagged behind point and size wise the first few years ..... the spike / 2 pt bucks 'caught up' so to speak size / point wise by the time they reached 5-7 yrs of age ..... the harvest of so called 'inferior' bucks may not always hold true. A controlled environment versus wild and all the variabilities involved make for different results.

The standard approach with the guality deer management programs has usually been to maily harvest spikes and 2 pts, and selectivelly harvest the mature bucks as they reach maximum antler size, however I also read a paper recently where the author suggested it might be wise to let the spikes/2pts live another year to see what develops before harvesting them. Seems this theoretical stuff is in constant flux as more and more reseach is done.

[hunter1947]

I tried to tell hunter1947 him in a PM but he wanted me to post up evidence that counters his personal belief that a big mule deer buck changes his genetic make up as he gets older.......

His thought process is a bit out to lunch today so I'm not even going to try to convince him. Even with a simple example regarding humans. Our genetic make up is what were passed on from our parents .......it doesn't change ;)

I read an interesting paper regarding white-tailed deer regarding the shooting of spike / 2 pt bucks to make for better genetic pool.....found it wasn't the case... while the spike / 2 pt bucks were smaller from the get go than say a superior 3 or 4 pt and always lagged behind point and size wise the first few years ..... the spike / 2 pt bucks 'caught up' so to speak size / point wise by the time they reached 5-7 yrs of age ..... the harvest of so called 'inferior' bucks may not always hold true. A controlled environment versus wild and all the variabilities involved make for different results.


BCrams I just got off the phone talking to one of my friend biologist and yes you are right I am wrong animals don't change there jene pool after they are born same as humans ,my apology http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon11.gif..

One thing he did tell me is that you don't know if an elk moose deer etc are caring a good jene pool till they are at a mature age to show the size of there antlers..

[Islandeer]

Intresting posts, re puny spikes not making the grade, they eventually have the potential to reach cranker proportions. Re the whities,it may take them longer when the population is so high due to over competition.

Using this model .... I know a hockey player who was a runt as a kid,talanted but small,decided to grow at 16,got big,now playin in the show ..... :wink:

[Seeadler]

what paper? and date?
thx

Valley News, December 17.

[TyTy]

From what i saw in the east kooenays this year...

No body needs to harvest a meat mule deer buck with all the white tail around. But having the opion is nice.

I myself passed on 2 point muley. Saw tones of muley does, but only the one fork horn, so I let him live for my part.

I think a 4 point season is: a) very restrictive, and reduces hunter succes rates, b) focuses on one age class, (over time i believe this changes population dynamics un-naturally)

However, It would be nice to wack that nice big 3 point once in a while. a nice medium sized rack with enough lbs of meat to make it worth the effort.

Is there no medium ground? how about staggering the seasons. 4 point only on even years in oct. any buck in odd years in oct. easy to adjust after harsh winters. And there is sooooo much area in the east kooenays if you bother to get off the roads.

Someone mentioned carrying capacity, which i believe to be more so related to population levels than total harvest. the GOABC should advocate more for winter range protection instead of GOS restrictions, but i imagine its cheaper and easier to lobby the ministry than secure seasonal refuge for the animals.

[Savage Man]

You want more mule deer kill more wt does and cow elk and while your at it start a forest fire in the trench. We do not have enough winter range for the animals we have without some more winter range we can not increase the herd past its present size.
I don't understand the idea of point restrictions on WT deer we are over run by WT deer in the EK. We should be increasing the bag limit on WT deer to three that will do more to help the MD than anything else.

I don't disagree with your comment on whitetail except I still think either you need to kill more does or have a three point season to get the buck to doe ratio back .
I don't know if we are or arn't at carrying capacity but more winter range is always a good thing.
I think we are on the right track with the cow elk season in the trench hopefully we will get more elk migrating back into the high country like they use to and put a little less strain on our winter range during the summer months.
As for mule deer I am not going to say that a four point season should be a never ending salution but our mule deer are just getting back to a reasonable level so lets go back to the four point only and give them a little ore time.

[6616]

As for mule deer I am not going to say that a four point season should be a never ending salution but our mule deer are just getting back to a reasonable level so lets go back to the four point only and give them a little ore time.

The 4 pt season is not a recovery strategy that will help regardless of how much time you give it. It's been 14 years since the 96/97 winter kill, if the 4pt strategy was a viable recovery strategy these herds would have been back quite some time ago. It's not working so why prolong it.

[Savage Man]

The 4 pt season is not a recovery strategy that will help regardless of how much time you give it. It's been 14 years since the 96/97 winter kill, if the 4pt strategy was a viable recovery strategy these herds would have been back quite some time ago. It's not working so why prolong it.

Well I geuss we should just give up and kill them all off even though the strategy was working ah.

[Fisher-Dude]

I don't disagree with your comment on whitetail except I still think either you need to kill more does or have a three point season to get the buck to doe ratio back .


Back to what? What's wrong with the buck:doe ratio? What IS the buck:doe ratio now, and what do you think it should be?

The population is exploding, so obviously the does are getting bred, which means the buck:doe ratio is more than adequate. All we need is a sperm supply, and all those does with twins didn't get that way through immaculate conception.

I think SOME people drive around all day and see 60 does/fawns and no bucks, and think the ratio is hooped. Where the hell did those fawns come from? :wink:

[6616]

Well I geuss we should just give up and kill them all off even though the strategy was working ah.

What makes you think the 4pt strategy was working? If the population hasn't recoved after 14 years it doesn't sound to me like it was doing anything at all...!
The only strategy that will actually work to improve the mule deer population in the EK is to reduce the elk and WTD population. Without that, we could stop hunting them altogether and it still wouldn't make any significant difference.

[KevinB]

The population is exploding, so obviously the does are getting bred, which means the buck:doe ratio is more than adequate. All we need is a sperm supply, and all those does with twins didn't get that way through immaculate conception.


FD, that's priceless. I hope you don't mind, I added that to my signature block.:mrgreen:

[Husky7mm]

Exploding population you must be mixing mule deer and whitetail up, funny though.

[Fisher-Dude]

Exploding population you must be mixing mule deer and whitetail up, funny though.

I think you may be confused H7, my comments were in response to Savage Man's 3 point whitetail proposal. Read his quote and my exploding population comment again.

[Husky7mm]

Oops I thought I read it all sorry. A 3 point whitetail proposal would turn up a few bigger deer in a year or 2 but the popualtion will continue to increase until we get a 3 deer limit with 2 wt does being allowed to harvested. If this helps mulies great.

[6616]

I don't disagree with your comment on whitetail except I still think either you need to kill more does or have a three point season to get the buck to doe ratio back

The reality is that when we have 5 or 6 times as many does as bucks reducing the buck harvest with a three point antler restriction will do little to address the buck/doe ratio, there are just too many does to see any significant mathematical change in the ratio. Since we also have a population issue in the EK the ratio should be corrected (if it needs correcting) by shooting more does since shooting fewer bucks is contradictory to the population management objective.

In the mountain zones in Alberta they shoot 20% to 25% of their bucks and 10% of their does annually and their WTD population continues to expand, but at least (unlike us) they have it under control to some extent. They are not afraid to adopt an aggressive management strategy when the need arises like we seem to be in BC.

I agree Savage Man that we should be shooting a lot of does. We should adopt the Alberta female harvest strategy. 10% of our EK doe herd and 20 to 25% of our buck herd would mean we would be shooting nearly twice as many does as bucks. I know that sounds pretty wild, but don't forget we have 5 or 6 times as many does as bucks so it's not as outlandish as it first sounds.

[GoatGuy]

I don't disagree with your comment on whitetail except I still think either you need to kill more does or have a three point season to get the buck to doe ratio back .
I don't know if we are or arn't at carrying capacity but more winter range is always a good thing.
I think we are on the right track with the cow elk season in the trench hopefully we will get more elk migrating back into the high country like they use to and put a little less strain on our winter range during the summer months.
As for mule deer I am not going to say that a four point season should be a never ending salution but our mule deer are just getting back to a reasonable level so lets go back to the four point only and give them a little ore time.

I think you are confusing healthy deer populations with the want to see more bucks.

There's a big difference.

[Savage Man]

The only strategy that will actually work to improve the mule deer population in the EK is to reduce the elk and WTD population. Without that, we could stop hunting them altogether and it still wouldn't make any significant difference.[/quote]

Just a question but what makes you such an expert on this subject? I don't mean to be sarcastic and maybe you have a degree or something .

[Kirby]

The only strategy that will actually work to improve the mule deer population in the EK is to reduce the elk and WTD population. Without that, we could stop hunting them altogether and it still wouldn't make any significant difference.

Just a question but what makes you such an expert on this subject? I don't mean to be sarcastic and maybe you have a degree or something .

Not sure who made the initial quote but its a basic biological concept you cannot exceed carrying capacity. The Koots are at carrying or above carrying capacity. You can keep sending in more deer and they will just feed the coyotes, wolves and cougars.

Unless you allow a spot for more mule deer to live(decreased wt/elk) you cannot have more mule deer.

Its saturation. Its basic biology

I'm not an expert but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night (and I have taken a bunch of University courses all about this crap).

[6616]

The only strategy that will actually work to improve the mule deer population in the EK is to reduce the elk and WTD population. Without that, we could stop hunting them altogether and it still wouldn't make any significant difference.

Just a question but what makes you such an expert on this subject? I don't mean to be sarcastic and maybe you have a degree or something .[/quote]

I also stayed at the holiday Inn last night.....

Seriously, it's not that hard to get a real good handle on basic willdife management. There are literally dozens and dozens of reseach papers, government reports, and population status reports, etc, out there if you source them out and study them. One can acquire a fairly strong understanding of things like carrying capacity, population dynamics, and the difference between compensatory and additive harvest, etc, after a few years of studying up on them.

You also need to remember the statements I make are my (possibly educated) opinion only.

[GoatGuy]

Geez, got stuck in a Best Western last night. WTF, over?

[Savage Man]

But You still havn't answered my question did you all do a count in the trench , What makes all of you such an expert on this area that you can say we are at carrying capacity, because I spend a ton of time in the bush here and I don't know if we are or arn't. Have you been out and seen all of the clear cutting and spacing that has been done in the trench that creates more feed and winter range.

Oh and I geuss that FJ and all of his contacts don't spend any time in the bush around here and have little or no knowledge either so i geuss all of your extensive education makes the rest of us who spend a hundred or more days a year in the bush AROUND HERE just a bunch of dumbies.

I also find it quite funny how people from outside this area have so much to say on this when they spend so little time here. Like I have said I can't comment on other area's because I don't have knowledge of those area's. ( I know everett you live many others don't)

As for the very intellegent comment about whitetail being bread by immaculate conception how many buck's does it take to bread all of these does and how many are being bread by inmature bucks? As FJ say say's in his article many of us see atleast 25 does before we see a buck in the rut . HMMM think about it.
And no I don't think I am expert but all my frinds and family feel the same way that I do but most of them have been scared away from this site by all of the arm chair biologists on here who love to set themselves up as being so superior to the rest of us. I enjoy this site and find it informative and interesting but sometimes like the comercial say's " REALLY REALLY"

[Fisher-Dude]

But You still havn't answered my question did you all do a count in the trench , What makes all of you such an expert on this area that you can say we are at carrying capacity, because I spend a ton of time in the bush here and I don't know if we are or arn't. Have you been out and seen all of the clear cutting and spacing that has been done in the trench that creates more feed and winter range.

Oh and I geuss that FJ and all of his contacts don't spend any time in the bush around here and have little or no knowledge either so i geuss all of your extensive education makes the rest of us who spend a hundred or more days a year in the bush AROUND HERE just a bunch of dumbies.

I also find it quite funny how people from outside this area have so much to say on this when they spend so little time here. Like I have said I can't comment on other area's because I don't have knowledge of those area's. ( I know everett you live many others don't)

As for the very intellegent comment about whitetail being bread by immaculate conception how many buck's does it take to bread all of these does and how many are being bread by inmature bucks? As FJ say say's in his article many of us see atleast 25 does before we see a buck in the rut . HMMM think about it.
And no I don't think I am expert but all my frinds and family feel the same way that I do but most of them have been scared away from this site by all of the arm chair biologists on here who love to set themselves up as being so superior to the rest of us. I enjoy this site and find it informative and interesting but sometimes like the comercial say's " REALLY REALLY"

It doesn't make any difference what age of buck breeds a doe. All that is required is a sperm supply, that's it. Older bucks have no better sperm than a forkhorn. Does are not selective when they are in heat, and any buck with a load of goo can and will do the job.

There are no "better genetics" in a three year old 4 point than a two year old forky. Genetics in a forky are the same as the genetics in a 4 point a year or two down the road - they don't change in the buck's lifetime. And, half the fawn's genetics come from the doe.

Also, you have said that "immature" bucks may be doing the breeding - they can't breed, as they are sexually immature by definition, and don't produce sperm. Thus, they won't be impregnating does. Only a sexually mature buck can breed.

Hurtak says that we "may see 25 does before seeing a buck." Many of those are fawns that are not considered does. With a rut component of about 80:100 fawn:doe ratio, the number of "does" that he actually sees before a buck is more likely 13.8 before he sees a buck. Without adjusting for the inherently much higher sightability factor for bucks (at least 3 times higher than does) compared to does, he's observing an 8:100 buck:doe ratio. Adjusted for sightability, the ratio is well over 20:100. Some jurisdictions are experiencing whitetailed deer population explosions with buck:doe ratios as low as 5:100. HMMM, think about that.

If we had does not being bred, and the shrinking whitetail population that would result, we'd have a problem by shooting bucks. We don't have this problem at all, as the does are all getting bred and the population of WT deer remains high and expanding.

Our problem is the opposite - we've got too many deer and not enough hunters to control their numbers. We need more hunters, an increased bag limit, and longer seasons if we are going to control the population with hunting, not more restrictions that discourage hunters, reduce harvest, and exacerbate the problem. If we don't harvest the deer, we'll watch Mother Nature do it for us, and the results won't allow you to find more bucks or put venison in your freezer.

[6616]

But You still havn't answered my question did you all do a count in the trench , What makes all of you such an expert on this area that you can say we are at carrying capacity, because I spend a ton of time in the bush here and I don't know if we are or arn't. Have you been out and seen all of the clear cutting and spacing that has been done in the trench that creates more feed and winter range.

Oh and I geuss that FJ and all of his contacts don't spend any time in the bush around here and have little or no knowledge either so i geuss all of your extensive education makes the rest of us who spend a hundred or more days a year in the bush AROUND HERE just a bunch of dumbies.

I also find it quite funny how people from outside this area have so much to say on this when they spend so little time here. Like I have said I can't comment on other area's because I don't have knowledge of those area's. ( I know everett you live many others don't)

As for the very intellegent comment about whitetail being bread by immaculate conception how many buck's does it take to bread all of these does and how many are being bread by inmature bucks? As FJ say say's in his article many of us see atleast 25 does before we see a buck in the rut . HMMM think about it.
And no I don't think I am expert but all my frinds and family feel the same way that I do but most of them have been scared away from this site by all of the arm chair biologists on here who love to set themselves up as being so superior to the rest of us. I enjoy this site and find it informative and interesting but sometimes like the comercial say's " REALLY REALLY"

No,,,I/we did not take a count in the Trench, but the Ministry has taken many so the data exists and that's what we're basing our opinions on. The Ministry says we're at or near carrying capacity, not me, I just happen to take their word for it when a pro biologist who has taken many surveys says something and their statement is backed up by hard data.

Remember that word "opinion", that's all our comments are, or are we not entitled to an opinion because it doesn't agree with yours or FJs, or don't happen to live in Cranbrook. Like I said all these surveys and the reports are available, they're easy to get, just go into the F&W office at Cranbrook and ask. Then read and understand them and then your opinion will also be an educated opinion based on data and fact. Gut instinct and bar room chatter doesn't meet the test for scientific wildlife management pard..!

Oh, and by the way, I've lived in the Trench since 1964 and have hunted nearly every valley and all species in the Trench, if that makes a difference, which it doesn't because someone who lives away but has read all the reports probably knows more about Trench wildlife population dynamics than some one who lives in the Trench and hasn't read any of them...!

So,,, sorry if I've stepped on your toes, but it would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything, what the heck would we talk about then......???

[Everett]

Yes I do live in the EK and hunt upwards of 100 days year in region 4 I also hunt region 8, 6 and 7b most years. So some of my opinions of game magement comes from my personal observations. But my main source of info is reading every ministry report I can find on any area I hunt. You would not believe the info you can drag out of the ministry of environment web site and if you know how to use Imap you can find even more info and for some reson after midnight pacific time you seem to be able to get access to raw data from wildlife counts and varios other interesting reports.
All this info plus a small bit of education allows me to understand what the local bio's are up to and from what I can see the ones that we currently have in region 4 know there stuff. Some other areas in the province are not so lucky.
As for whitetail deer they are the most studied mammal in North America it is very easy to become well educated on this species do some reading talk to some of the local bios and your opinions will change.
As for Hurtacks article its crap he just repeats all same stuff that the hunters in the EK seems to have programed in there DNA.
Well I hope I wrote this in a non offensive manner.

[Savage Man]

As for Hurtacks article its crap he just repeats all same rubbish that the uneducated hunter in the EK seems to have programed in there DNA.
Well I hope I wrote this in a non offensive manner.[/quote]

Man I enjoyeds running into you in the bush this fall and hope to again in the future but don't call me and the rest of my born and bread friends here in the east kootenays uneducated ie. stupid because we can think for our self and don't believe in all the politacally motivated regulations that are force on us. That is not to say that all the regs. are bad but some we don't agree with and yes we can have an educated opinion to I know its hard to believe.

[Savage Man]

So,,, sorry if I've stepped on your toes, but it would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything, what the heck would we talk about then......???[/quote]

No problem I like a good discusion and have fun with the debate I do how ever take exception with people making me out to be an idiot because I express the views of myself and many many of my friends and family. That are are based on our vast time spent a field , Especially when they live hundreds of miles from here. I am not accussing of of this just people in general.

[Fisher-Dude]

No problem I like a good discusion and have fun with the debate I do how ever take exception with people making me out to be an idiot because I express the views of myself and many many of my friends and family. That are are based on our vast time spent a field , Especially when they live hundreds of miles from here. I am not accussing of of this just people in general.

I've hunted the East Kootenays pretty much every year since 1977. But, I don't live in region 4.

Does that make me any less qualified to study the data gathered by the biologists, attend meetings and participate on wildlife committees, and read every deer/elk/moose/chipmunk study I can get my hands on so that I can make an informed decision on how wildlife should be managed? Do I know less than a Valley Person even though I've spoken extensively with people like Garth Mowat and Ray Demarchi about these issues?

Just because I'm a few hundred kms from where I hunt, it doesn't mean that the "locals" are better able to make judgments about what how game should be managed, especially when it appears from their "opinions" that they haven't bothered to read a single study on deer/moose/elk/chipmunk management, but instead rely on gossip at Tim Hortons about how game should be managed.

Do yourself a big favour, and give Garth Mowat a call in the new year. Ask him about seasons for WTs and MDs. Listen to what he has to say, rather than yelling at him about some "slaughter" or other BS you've heard from the Hurtaks of the world. Listen respectfully, ask questions, and you'll come away with a whole different perspective on this issue, I'm sure.

[6616]

No problem I like a good discusion and have fun with the debate I do how ever take exception with people making me out to be an idiot because I express the views of myself and many many of my friends and family. That are are based on our vast time spent a field , Especially when they live hundreds of miles from here. I am not accussing of of this just people in general.

I don't believe anyone is calling you stupid or an idiot, maybe suggesting you're uninformed,,, but that vastly different than calling someone an idiot. By the way, merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all of you guys out there.

[GoatGuy]

Have you been out and seen all of the clear cutting and spacing that has been done in the trench that creates more feed and winter range.

It's a drop in the bucket compared to what it's supposed to be. We don't even come close to keeping up with ingrowth on the current ER projects. Besides that they're doing it mechanically so we miss all the benefits of fire.




No problem I like a good discusion and have fun with the debate I do how ever take exception with people making me out to be an idiot because I express the views of myself and many many of my friends and family. That are are based on our vast time spent a field , Especially when they live hundreds of miles from here. I am not accussing of of this just people in general.

Hunted right around 5 weeks in the EK this fall, hunting buddy lives there hunts way more than that and due to work has a way better handle on wildlife populations than most.

I think your 'issue' is that you want to see lots of and big bucks - that has nothing to do with having a healthy deer herd. It's natural to want to see 'lots of bucks', the disconnect comes when people think just because they aren't seeing the bucks that they aren't there or it's somehow conservation related.

And remember, you're the one 'not seeing the bucks' when the rest of us are.

[6616]

Have you been out and seen all of the clear cutting and spacing that has been done in the trench that creates more feed and winter range.

GoatGuy is right,,,, a drop in the bucket..!

First off - most of the clear cut harvesting and a lot of the commercial thinning and spacing occurs in forest tenure areas that are not classified as winter range.

As far as the Eco-system Restoration Program (ERP) goes, there are 100,000 Ha of NDT4 eco-system (PP and IDF forest types) in the Trench, all of which is winter range, and nearly 80,000 Ha of that is currently at varying degrees of reduced capability and needs ER treatment.

We lose approximatelly 3000 ha per year of NDT4 eco-system (winter range) to forest ingrowth and encroachment in the Trench. The ERP only managed to burn 400 Ha in spring 2010. Also, during 2009 and 2010 the ERP did a lot of thinning and spacing with work crews financed by the Provincial Job Opportunities Program and Federal Community Adjustment Fund, but that's a one time deal only as a counter-measure to the ressession. I have been a member of the ERP steering committee for several years and know the above numbers to be factual and accurate.

Here is some info:
http://trench-er.com/library
http://www.trenchsociety.com/setup/content/Blueprint_for_Action_2006.pdf
http://www.trenchsociety.com/whatsnew.php
http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hra/Restoration/index.htm

The Rocky Mountain Forest District has pioneered NDT4 ecosysyetm restoration in BC. Good reading gents.

[Husky7mm]

Wayne,

Seems like fewer mulies on the Kookanusa side too, hmmmm,buckets of whities and elk though. And for sure way more dinky little spike whities,a sign again of too many animals,and not enough groceries.

Oh well we could get quite the population correction this year and we will be back to where we were after the winter of 96. Then the whining about liberal bag limits will start again. Such a cyclic thing .... ha ha

YOU SHOULD HAVE SEEN THE FAT ON ALL THE GAME I HELPED CUT UP AND BUTCHER THIS YEAR, THEY WERE FAT LIKE A FALL BEAR. DINKY LITTLE SPIKES ARE DINKY BECAUSE THEY ARE 1.5 YRS OLD NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE STARVING. DONT GET ME WRONG I'M NOT AGAINST WACKING AND STACKING SOME WHITETAILS, BUT THERE IS LOTS OF FEED TO GO AROUND.

[Jonas111]

I am just curious but why do you dislike WTD so much? Why do they dictate what the Mule Deer population does?

[6616]

YOU SHOULD HAVE SEEN THE FAT ON ALL THE GAME I HELPED CUT UP AND BUTCHER THIS YEAR, THEY WERE FAT LIKE A FALL BEAR. DINKY LITTLE SPIKES ARE DINKY BECAUSE THEY ARE 1.5 YRS OLD NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE STARVING. DONT GET ME WRONG I'M NOT AGAINST WACKING AND STACKING SOME WHITETAILS, BUT THERE IS LOTS OF FEED TO GO AROUND.

There is always enough feed on spring, summer and fall ranges. Deer, elk, moose, etc are always fat in the fall. If they're not there's something wrong and they're in big trouble.

The limiting factor is winter range which is usually much smaller and food sources are lower in nutrition due to the plant being dormant. There is usually enough feed on the winter ranges for the most of the winter as well, but runs short as winter wears on and snow pack depth increases. Winter die-offs due to starvation usually occur in Fedruary and March.

During late summer and fall ungulates eat more than is required to maintain their body, they gain weight and put on that layer of fat storage to get them though the winter. In the winter they don't get enough to compensate for the extra effort required to forage for low nutritional value food in deep snow pack and they lose weight all winter long. Nearing spring, especially if the winter is longer than usual there is a severe danger of running out of that stored fat. If that happens they start losing bone and muscle mass and soon after start dying.

[6616]

I am just curious but why do you dislike WTD so much? Why do they dictate what the Mule Deer population does?

I don't know who your asking, but as for me I love white tails and I've often travelled to other provinces to hunt them after the BC season closes.

The issue is they are much better competitors than mule deer and have a higher reproduction rate, are better adapted to a wider range of habitat types, and have a wider range of food preferences. Thus over time they can displace mule deer on a shared habitat area so care must be taken by managers that this does not happen. This requires a much more aggressive harvest regime for WTD than mule deer on shared ranges.

My preference,,,I want to keep healthy herds of both species around.

The issue isn't that we're over-harvesting mule deer, mule deer numbers are not down because of hunting, they're down because of competition from WTD and elk. We're under-harvesting elk and WTD, and mule deer are suffering as a consequence.

[Jonas111]

I don't know who your asking, but as for me I love white tails and I've often travelled to other provinces to hunt them after the BC season closes.

The issue is they are much better competitors than mule deer and have a higher reproduction rate, are better adapted to a wider range of habitat types, and have a wider range of food preferences. Thus over time they can displace mule deer on a shared habitat area so care must be taken by managers that this does not happen. This requires a much more aggressive harvest regime for WTD than mule deer on shared ranges.

My preference,,,I want to keep healthy herds of both species around.

The issue isn't that we're over-harvesting mule deer, mule deer numbers are not down because of hunting, they're down because of competition from WTD and elk. We're under-harvesting elk and WTD, and mule deer are suffering as a consequence.


Thanks for the clarification. There was a couple posts where guys call them Range Rats and thats what I was referring too.

I agree with you about the WTD. I go to MB each year to hunt them and we usually have quite of bit of success.

I enjoy that BC has both species and that chance at both. Back in MB Mule deer are just starting to come back in certain areas. There is no season at all on Mule deer in the area we hunt. The farmers in that area haven't seen mule deer for 20 some years.

Thanks again

[Husky7mm]

Thanks 6616 I am aware of this. I was refering to a hunters observation of a bunch of young whitetails being spikes this fall because they must have been malnourished. They're all fat as pigs but they must of only grew spikes because there wasnt enough food around this spring and summer to grow any antlers.
As for the ungulates eating themselves out of house and home this winter, it will take alot more snow than what we have right now and that could still be coming. If that does happen my bet is that they will move into the new winter range that they have opened up in the last few years that is being totally under utalized at this point in time. Or perhapes they will move up the mountains under the trees into "non approved winter range" where they will spend the remainder of the winter eating young conifer, goats beard or the grass at the bases of trees all the way up to about 4500 ft or so. They wont starve onpurpose.

[6616]

Thanks 6616 I am aware of this. I was refering to a hunters observation of a bunch of young whitetails being spikes this fall because they must have been malnourished. They're all fat as pigs but they must of only grew spikes because there wasnt enough food around this spring and summer to grow any antlers.
As for the ungulates eating themselves out of house and home this winter, it will take alot more snow than what we have right now and that could still be coming. If that does happen my bet is that they will move into the new winter range that they have opened up in the last few years that is being totally under utalized at this point in time. Or perhapes they will move up the mountains under the trees into "non approved winter range" where they will spend the remainder of the winter eating young conifer, goats beard or the grass at the bases of trees all the way up to about 4500 ft or so. They wont starve onpurpose.

I do not believe a buck will have spike antlers simply because of poor forage either, for sure smaller antlers, but not spikes, unless of course he's just a yearling that was going to have only spikes anyway. Genetics will determine his antler shape and general size and forage will contribute or detract to the size but not set him down to being a spike. Like you say there's usually lots of food around in spring and summer when antlers are growing. You're also right if they're fat they're getting enough food. However, good food does not necessarily mean good nutrition, a mineral shortage will cause small antlers also, in which case you could probably have fat deer but with inferior antlers.

Snowpack over about 12 to 14 inches will start having an adverse impact on deer and about 18" on elk. Elk will wear down faster though because they are grazers and have to do a lot of pawing which exerts a lot of energy while deer are predominantly browsers.

Cannot agree with you totally on winter range, with the large number of homesteader elk I think over-use of the winter range is an issue. Moving up to find new winter range is not always viable due to increased snowpack at higher elevations. Just moving at all could become a problem if the snow gets deep enough. When speaking about over-grazing I'm always referring to winter range since there's really no shortage of summer range. I don't think there is enough new under-utilized winter range to allow the entire deer and elk herd to survive a winter kill (if that's in the cards) by simply moving. Usually by the time things get that bad there's too much snow for deer to move and the elk may not have enough energy left to waste it moving. Elk will winter at 4500 feet in low snowfall years like we've been having for several years now or in site specific low snowfall micro-climates, but it's really highly doubtful if they will be able to make it at 4500 feet this year.

[Husky7mm]

I Find Mulies Considerably High Than Elk, Most Years. Under The Forest Canopy, In Very Steep Terrain. I Am Of Coarse Talking About Game That Winters Out Of The Trench. Up To 4500 Ft Was What I Read On The Altimetre. I Was Rather Surprise To See Doe Groups With Their Little Fawns Up There With Some Lower Elevations Being Almost Bare Of Snow. It Was Hard For Me To Get Around Unless I Followed There Trails And Stayed Under The Trees. There Were Certainly More Deer And Most Of The Elk Down In The Valley Bellow. Its Rather Surprising Where An Aniamal Can Make A Living. True On The Deep Snow Yarding Them Up Before They Can Move To Greener Pastures, Easy Pickins For The Preditors Then

[Singleshotneeded]

Ummmmmm, how about liberalizing hunting regs for predators...besides us, of course.:-D Take out more wolves, coyotes, and cougars, and we'll have more ungulates! The Yanks used to have enough nice elk around the Yellowstone area to support guiding businesses, then they decided to re-introduce wolves! Didn't work out so well for them, the article in F&S went, and now they've got an open season on the wolves.:-D

[hunter1947]

This is the first year living here in the EK and what I saw in the low line areas is mule WT elk all working over the habitat what I see so far is there all competing for food at the low level and the elk out number the mule deer and WT deer.

I know that elk are grazers but will do both when food is hard to find elk will graze and browse when food is hard to find ,WT and mule deer will do the same when food is hard to find my thoughts are is there enough habitat in the months of the winter to feed all and if not what should the management do ??? shoot more elk and WT deer ????..

[GoatGuy]

Again in recent years we have had an upsurge in elk populations, and I guess we didn't do anything about it in time because now we have 11,000 Ha of private ranchland behind wildlife exclusion fencing.

Everybody loses out on this one - unfortunately nobody ever seems to see the light on this sort of thing.

[6616]

Ray Demarchi told us at an EKWA meeting way back in the early '80's that 60% of the elk in the EK wintered on private land. At that time elk were increasing rapidly and there was a lot of complaining about elk from the local cattlemen. Ray figured that if we didn't do something about the elk numbers the cattlemen would. Well in the end the cattlemen did something about it: through political pressure they forced F&W to initiate a massive reduction in elk populations by issuing huge numbers of antlerless elk LEH authorizations.

In more recent times we have again had an upsurge in elk populations, and I guess we didn't do anything about it on this occasion either, because now we have 11,000 Ha of private ranchland behind wildlife exclusion fencing.

[6616]

Everybody loses out on this one - unfortunately nobody ever seems to see the light on this sort of thing.

There is an answer:
http://www.trenchsociety.com/setup/content/Blueprint_for_Action_2006.pdf

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hra/Restoration/Draft%20-%20Ecosystem%20Restoration%20Prov%20Strategic%20Pl an.pdf

Unfortunatelly, in spite of lots of support from local wildlife clubs, local ranchers, the BCWF, and MLA Bennett, there just hasn't been enough public support for this program.

[6616]

This is the first year living here in the EK and what I saw in the low line areas is mule WT elk all working over the habitat what I see so far is there all competing for food at the low level and the elk out number the mule deer and WT deer.

I know that elk are grazers but will do both when food is hard to find elk will graze and browse when food is hard to find ,WT and mule deer will do the same when food is hard to find my thoughts are is there enough habitat in the months of the winter to feed all and if not what should the management do ??? shoot more elk and WT deer ????..

In the short-term shooting more elk and WTD is probably the only viable solution. The populations must be kept at 70% of carrying capacity to protect the health of the remaining winter range. With the new elk and WTD antlerless GOSs (and hopefully an increased bag limit for WTD) we should be able to do this.

In the long-term range enhancement and ecosystem restoration is the answer. If this is successful, we can then increase wildlife populations when as range expands and we have enough winter range for them.

[hunter1947]

In the short-term shooting more elk and WTD is probably the only viable solution. The populations must be kept at 70% of carrying capacity to protect the health of the remaining winter range. With the new elk and WTD antlerless GOSs (and hopefully an increased bag limit for WTD) we should be able to do this.

In the long-term range enhancement and ecosystem restoration is the answer. If this is successful, we can then increase wildlife populations when as range expands and we have enough winter range for them.
Andy I did what I as a hunter had to do this fall I shot a WT deer :wink:.

[6616]

Andy I did what I as a hunter had to do this fall I shot a WT deer :wink:.

Thank you, now the next step is to get F&W to look at the bag limit so we can shoot 2 or 3.

[bayou]

Thank you, now the next step is to get F&W to look at the bag limit so we can shoot 2 or 3.
Maybe if you want more whitetail does shot it may help to tighten up the mule deer season even more for a few years to in a way force people to shoot whitetail does for meat.

[6616]

Maybe if you want more whitetail does shot it may help to tighten up the mule deer season even more for a few years to in a way force people to shoot whitetail does for meat.

I would like to see separate bag limits for each species instead of the aggregate "deer" bag limit now in place. This would allow much more flexability to manage mule deer and white tailed deer independently of the other.

[Everett]

I would like to see separate bag limits for each species instead of the aggregate "deer" bag limit now in place. This would allow much more flexability to manage mule deer and white tailed deer independently of the other.

A one mule deer and three wt deer limit sounds great only one buck WT though. With that limit you could leave the any MD season to take the preasure off the mature mule deer. Exstend the WT doe season till the 15th of Nov would be a good idea as well. While your at it allow the cow Elk season above 1100m. The meat hunters will have so much meat in there freezer they will have no interest in rutty old MD bucks.:wink:
Or we could just get rocksteady to burn the whole trench lets start with the Golf courses:twisted:

[6616]

A one mule deer and three wt deer limit sounds great only one buck WT though. With that limit you could leave the any MD season to take the preasure off the mature mule deer. Exstend the WT doe season till the 15th of Nov would be a good idea as well. While your at it allow the cow Elk season above 1100m. The meat hunters will have so much meat in there freezer they will have no interest in rutty old MD bucks.:wink:
Or we could just get rocksteady to burn the whole trench lets start with the Golf courses:twisted:

I'd like to see some harvest numbers on cow elk from last fall before I did anything more to the antlerless elk GOS, otherwise I agee completely.

For the guys who are afraid we will decimate the WTD population, I just found this in my records (Source Garth Mowat).
- WTD harvest and population estimates based on harvest levels dropped by 65% following the killer winter of '96/97. The conclusion arrived at from this is that we lost 65% of the WTD herd in that die-off.
-The amazing thing is that harvest levels and assumed populations had completelly recovered to pre-1997 levels by 2001.
-Full recovery from a 65% herd die-off in 4 years, pretty astounding IMO....

[hunter1947]

WT deer mate like rabbits for sure :mrgreen: like you said Andy don't take long for a full capacity :wink:

[hunter1947]

The way I see it for WT deer in region 4 is that you are only allowed one WT buck or doe and one mule deer buck 2 deer allowed only.

I found this out the hard way well I can tell you this most hunters will not shoot a WT deer doe they will hold off for a WT buck as for a mule buck.

I know if they don't change the regs over the summer months for the WT bag limit in 2011 I will be letting the WT doe walk and will target a WT buck in 2011.

Just my opinion that if they want to lower the WT doe population the management has to do something to preserve the bucks and take more does..

Something like this might work no GOS for WT bucks in region 4 for one year GOS for one or two wt does.

Someone should put up a poll for region 4 and see how many members that hunted this region shot a WT doe or buck this year would be interesting to see what the results would be.

[GoatGuy]

The way I see it for WT deer in region 4 is that you are only allowed one WT buck or doe and one mule deer buck 2 deer allowed only.

I found this out the hard way well I can tell you this most hunters will not shoot a WT deer doe they will hold off for a WT buck as for a mule buck.

I know if they don't change the regs over the summer months for the WT bag limit in 2011 I will be letting the WT doe walk and will target a WT buck in 2011.

Just my opinion that if they want to lower the WT doe population the management has to do something to preserve the bucks and take more does..

Something like this might work no GOS for WT bucks in region 4 for one year GOS for one or two wt does.

Someone should put up a poll for region 4 and see how many members that hunted this region shot a WT doe or buck this year would be interesting to see what the results would be.

Or two wt, one doe and one buck.

Usually with hunting regulations, you end up going much slower and more cautiously than maybe you should.

There were people in Region 4 who said the current regulation would be a slaughter so there you go.

[Husky7mm]

I have seen tonnes of whitetail does since the season closed, there was not even a dent put in them. I think there was a small dent put in the trench elk. I saw a fare bit of young mulies in november which I am both surprised and happy about. I dont think it was a slaughter. I have noticed there is very few mulie groups with many fawns, even before winter hit. After winter I see maby 1 fawn for 5 does. I think this is more because of predation than not enough food. Whitey does have 1 fawn per doe and sometimes 2, and thats even after winter. This year who know yet.