Halibut Wars

[IronNoggin]

HiYa Folks,

The battle over access to this once common property resource has now commenced in earnest. Should the situation continue the way it is, recreational halibut fishing will most likely be cut off for all by some time in July. Not at all due to "conservation concerns" as this resource is doing better than most. Nope, the reason for the closure is completely due to the Dino having GIFTED 88% of the annual Total Allowable Catch (TAC) to 436 commercail operators. Many of which do not even bother to set foot on a boat, far preferring to lease their "Gift" at exorbitant rates to those who actually fish.

There are a series of town-hall style meeting being scheduled up and down the coast. Newspaper and magazine articles are out, and there are more to follow.

What the Government has done in the case of this once public resource is WRONG! Turning a public resource into a private commodity to the benefit of a handful of "Armchair" or "Slipper Skippers" must not be tolerated. This is the first step to privatization of all our fisheries folks - a VERY Dangerous trend!

Time to stand up and be counted Folks! Attend the meetings, get your buddies to do the same, write a few letters to your MP's, and get the message out there: We WILL NOT stand idly by and watch our access to common property fisheries be stripped away in favor of the already fat wallets of a handful of Fat Cat commercial harvesters!

A few items of note here:

http://www.canada.com/2010+halibut+season+...5310/story.html (http://www.canada.com/2010+halibut+season+peril/3955310/story.html)

http://www.canada.com/Dear+John+make+call/3955308/story.html

Related Poll in the Island Courier: http://www2.canada.com/courierislander/index.html

Nog - Engaged Firmly In This One!

[steelhead]

..........................

[c.r.hunter]

Go to SFI's site www.sportfishing.bc.ca (http://www.sportfishing.bc.ca) for more info on the halibut issue. The more people who write thier own letters the better. There's a link to the letter sent by SFI which might help some people to write their own letter. Now is the time to stand up and be heard!!!! Please, if your a sport fisherman who feels this is unfair, write a letter today!

[RJ]

Pound for pound recreational fishing brings in such a huge economic boost over commercial I don't understand why the government constantly kicks sport fishermen in the nuts.

In my opinion, it should be resident first. Commercial second. Not the other way around.

[IronNoggin]

...In my opinion, it should be resident first. Commercial second. Not the other way around.

Then DO SOMETHING about your feelings! :wink:

Keep an eye on this site: http://www.sfibc.com/

Methinks we can make a difference. It will be very much an Uphill Battle, but one we can win if we stick to our guns, and get a LOT of involvement!

Cheers,
Nog

[IronNoggin]

Here are the options: Halibut Allocation 2011– Update and Forecast

How did we get here?

• 1991 – DFO gifts shares of the common property Canadian Halibut resource to 435 commercial fishermen based on their previous catch history. This was done to remove safety concerns for fishermen and crews that arose from competitive “derby style” fisheries, and to stabilize the supply of halibut to the market.

• 2000 – These same commercial fishermen grow concerned over the “uncompensated reallocation of halibut from the commercial sector to the recreational sector”. It is worth noting that these quota holders never paid a penny for their quota when it was first gifted to them by DFO, and then they wanted to be compensated for providing this same halibut back to its rightful owners – the people of Canada. These cries for compensation for their gifted quota by the quota holders resulted in a series of allocation framework meetings which resulted in the current 2003 Halibut Allocation Policy.

• 2003 – The Thibault Allocation Policy has 3 main components:
- The Canadian TAC available to the commercial and recreational fisheries are split to provide 88% to the 435 original quota holders, and 12% to the 100,000 participants in the public fishery.
- “a 12 per cent recreational catch ‘ceiling’ will be allocated to the recreational sector until both parties can develop an acceptable mechanism that will allow for adjustment of the recreational share through acquisition of additional quota from the commercial sector”.
- “I have also made a commitment that there will be no closure of the sport fishery in-season”.

• It is generally agreed based on significant improvements in recreational fishery catch accounting methods over recent years that the recreational catch was underestimated at this time, and that the 12% allocation allowed for little to no growth.

• 2008 – A series of meetings between the commercial sector, recreational sector, BC Ministry of Environment, First Nations representatives, and DFO produced a consensus agreement between the commercial and recreational sectors on a mechanism to transfer quota. This agreement was then rejected by DFO as not meeting the requirements of the “User Fee Act”, and “ministerial authority” requirements under the “Fisheries Act”. It is the assertion of the BCSFC that the real reason for its rejection is simply lack of political will to find a solution.

• Nov 2008. The recreational sector is closed in season for the first time in clear contravention of the 2003 allocation policy.

• 2010 – The Halibut Allocation Transfer Mechanism committee is struck and tasked with finding a solution to what DFO clearly acknowledges is a serious problem with the 88\12 allocation formulae. It produces a series of options. (See page 2)

• Oct 2010 – the recreational fishery is again closed in-season causing serious economic damage to tackle manufacturers, lodges, charters, tackle stores, marinas campgrounds and other service providers to the recreational fishery again, in clear violation of the 2003 allocation policy.

• Nov – Dec 2010 Uncertainty and instability cause further damage to the recreational fishery as the message that “the recreational halibut fishery in BC is closed.”

The Problem:

• For 2011 season, if the recreational fishery was restricted to its current 12% allocation and based on similar catch rates to 2010, if the season was to start on Feb 1st, it would end:

- July 15th with bag limits of 2 per day, 3 possession
- Aug 1st with bag limits of 2 per day, 2 in possession
- August 20th with bag limits of 1 per day, 2 in possession

All of these dates represent the “peak season” for fishing in BC. This would potentially cause economic disaster to many small coastal communities as businesses fail, tourist dollars dry up, and lodges and charters close their doors early.

Remember – all of this could happen in order to ensure that less than 500 individuals continue to reap huge profits from a common property resource they never had to pay for in the first place!

• • The bare minimum considered acceptable to the recreational fishery for the 2011 season is clear:

2 halibut per day, 2 in possession.
Season start – Feb 1st, 2001
Season end – Dec 31st, 2011

Taken from the SFI report on halibut.

[SUAFOYT]

Thanks for the update, I agree that the TAC given away to the Commies is definetly a problem. If you formulate a letter to the DFO or and MP, I'll sign it.

This is too important an issue to start attaching "isms". Let's try and keep biases out of it and stick to the facts shall we.

[weatherby_man]

Hi Noggin, I got wind of this through BCFDF after the SFAB meeting in Nanaimo.

Is it true Pattison in one way or another owns the majority of the Halibut allocation?

[IronNoggin]

Is it true Pattison in one way or another owns the majority of the Halibut allocation?

The Lion's Share, Yes.

Here's the list of whom to fire your letters off to:

The Honourable Gail Shea
House of Commons
Minister of Fisheries and Oceans Canada
Parliament Buildings, Wellington Street
Ottawa, ON K1A 0A6 Canada
E-Mail: Min@dfo-mpo.gc.ca

Members of Parliament

Abbott, Jim (Hon.) AbbotJ@parl.gc.ca Kootenay—Columbia Conservative
Atamanenko, Alex AtamaA@parl.gc.ca British Columbia Southern Interior NDP
Cadman, Dona Cadman.D@parl.gc.ca Surrey North Conservative
Cannan, Ron CannaR@parl.gc.ca Kelowna—Lake Country Conservative
Crowder, Jean CrowdJ@parl.gc.ca Nanaimo—Cowichan NDP
Cullen, Nathan CulleN@parl.gc.ca Skeena—Bulkley Valley NDP
Cummins, John CummiJ@parl.gc.ca Delta—Richmond East Conservative
Davies, Don Davies.D@parl.gc.ca Vancouver Kingsway NDP
Davies, Libby DavieL@parl.gc.ca Vancouver East NDP
Day, Stockwell (Hon.) DayS@parl.gc.ca Okanagan—Coquihalla Conservative
Dhaliwal, Sukh DhaliS@parl.gc.ca Newton—North Delta Liberal
Donnelly, Fin n/a New Westminster—Coquitlam NDP
Dosanjh, Ujjal (Hon.) DosanU@parl.gc.ca Vancouver South Liberal
Duncan, John Duncan.J@parl.gc.ca Vancouver Island North Conservative
Fast, Ed FastE@parl.gc.ca Abbotsford Conservative
Fry, Hedy (Hon.) FryH@parl.gc.ca Vancouver Centre Liberal
Grewal, Nina GrewaN@parl.gc.ca Fleetwood—Port Kells Conservative
Harris, Richard M. HarriR@parl.gc.ca Cariboo—Prince George Conservative
Hiebert, Russ HiebeR@parl.gc.ca South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale Conservative
Hill, Jay (Hon.) HillJ@parl.gc.ca Prince George—Peace River Conservative
Julian, Peter JuliaP@parl.gc.ca Burnaby—New Westminster NDP
Kamp, Randy KampR@parl.gc.ca Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission Conservative
Lunn, Gary (Hon.) LunnG@parl.gc.ca Saanich—Gulf Islands Conservative
Lunney, James LunneJ@parl.gc.ca Nanaimo—Alberni Conservative
Martin, Keith (Hon.) MartiK@parl.gc.ca Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca Liberal
Mayes, Colin MayesC@parl.gc.ca Okanagan—Shuswap Conservative
McLeod, Cathy McLeod.C@parl.gc.ca Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo Conservative
Moore, James (Hon.) MooreJ@parl.gc.ca Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam Conservative
Murray, Joyce MurraJ@parl.gc.ca Vancouver Quadra Liberal
Savoie, Denise SavoiD@parl.gc.ca Victoria NDP
Saxton, Andrew Saxton.A@parl.gc.ca North Vancouver Conservative
Siksay, Bill SiksaB@parl.gc.ca Burnaby—Douglas NDP
Strahl, Chuck (Hon.) StrahC@parl.gc.ca Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon Conservative
Warawa, Mark warawm7@parl.gc.ca Langley Conservative
Weston, John Weston.J@parl.gc.ca West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country Conservative
Wong, Alice Wong.A@parl.gc.ca Richmond Conservative

HARD COPIES are GREATLY preferable! And please do send a copy off to Chris Bos (c.bos@shaw.ca) . He's tracking our efforts.
Please Folks, this one is DAMN IMPORTANT!!

TIA!
Matt

[dryflyguy57]

Isn't it the lodges that we should go after too as they are taking the majority of the recreational catch . They are as commercial as any longliner . They should go buy some quota if they want to bonk one .

[burger]

Sounds just like the GOABC in their efforts to restrict residents for personal gain.

Same same but different

[bogman]

from ironoggin

"The Lion's Share, Yes".

Matt, While Jimmy does own some Quota it is a long ways from the "Lions share"

[bogman]

Isn't it the lodges that we should go after too as they are taking the majority of the recreational catch . They are as commercial as any longliner . They should go buy some quota if they want to bonk one .


and the in fighting starts.

[dryflyguy57]

bogman the lodges are going to look after their own interests without any thought to the tin boat crowd . Most every booking will take away from Total Allowable Catch of the true recreational fisherman in this province . Do you agree ?

[RJ]

How do they even know how many fish that sport guys are taking out of there? I have never seen anyone at the dock asking around, are they just pulling these numbers out of their asses?

[RustyRipper]

How do they even know how many fish that sport guys are taking out of there? I have never seen anyone at the dock asking around, are they just pulling these numbers out of their asses?

be careful what you wish for...

[Ed George]

The guides and lodges are not taking fish, the guys fishing there have the same licence as you and I. The commercial guys would like nothing better than to divert the real problem over to infighting. The gifting of the fish without any real data as to what the recreational fishermen actually caught is where we need to focus our attention.
Go to the BCWF website and under the heading, News, you can find a link to the Coalition website. This site is supported by the BCWF, the SFI and the Victoria Anglers Coalition.
We have to win this fight, the politians and bureaucrats are already sizing up the crabs, prawns, rockfish and salmon.
Next time you go fishing do you really want to go down to the local grocery and purchase an allocation to allow you to harvest a fish, not me.
GET INVOLVED!

[s-dog]

Well said jack pine savage,we must stay focused on the communist style of management of OUR resource! Don't for a second think that it will stop with just halibut,this is very serious and tell everyone you know to write a few letters.It didn't take long and it is time well spent,just look at those sample letters at SFI site and away you go.Lets nip this one in the butt right away.As a side note lets remember that the people going to a lodge are recreational anglers as well who are buying a license, supporting sportfishing and are economy! Lets stay united..Many are also members of important sportfishing groups that are a big voice.

[bogman]

bogman the lodges are going to look after their own interests without any thought to the tin boat crowd . Most every booking will take away from Total Allowable Catch of the true recreational fisherman in this province . Do you agree ?

Dryfly, Its understandable from an average recreational fisherman view point that the "Lodges" are just part of the big corperate machine. I have run one of these lodges(a smaller one) for a few years now and from looking at how the SFI and and SFAB operate I would have to disagree with you. They seem to treat access from all recreational fisherman equally and while I personally disagree with the approach they are taking to get more of the halibut TAC the one thing they seem to agree on is unity in the sports fleet no matter what level. I hope this can continue but I have my doubts.

Jack Pine, The commercial fleet does not want to divert the real problem over to infighting as they have dealt with that issue for years themselves as this is what DFO has dealt them since day one. I believe from a purely business point of view the PHMA would work with the sports fleet to get more of the 88/12. Weather DFO will let that happen is another story.Your next comment about gifting without real data is almost solely on the sports community. I sat on the Halibut Advisory Board for a number of years back in the early 90's when quotas were coming in and while the sports fleet had a seat on this very board they rairly showed up for meetings and we could never get catch numbers from them. 12% in the begining was lots of fish for the Sports but now with the lower TAC it isn't. Well guess what the commercials are suffering also. I am not even going to get into the "slipper skipper" leasing issue as I fought against it when I was heavily involved in the political process in the commercial halibut fishery. If you haven't guessed already I was a commercial Halibut fisherman for more years than I care to remember so I am seeing things from both side of the street here (remember I run a lodge now). I am not saying I have all the answers but the main thing to remember for those of you who want to make comments, make sure you have acurate data before you start saying things that don't really make sense. The key here is to get involved and work together Sports, Commercials, and FN and show DFO that we can work together and come up with a solution to this issue. But I have to say that if the SFI thinks that DFO is just going to take away quota from the commercial fleet to "Gift"it to the recreational fisherman, it is this recreational fishermans opinion that that won't happen.

[dryflyguy57]

I too sat as an alternate on the HAB board when quotas were introduced . Fished before and after . The IPHC got data from every user group from on the west coast except from the B C sport fishing sector . The lodges had the defence that they were a hotel that rented boats as the IPHC desperately tried to get some real data for the harvest model . Now i hear the Americans are pushing the model that would hinge on how much coastline we have under 200 fathoms to determine the TAC (Gulf Of Alaska is huge and mostly under 200 fathoms) . Our area which is 2 B stands to lose a large percentage of the Total Allowable catch if this happens . We can be sure that the lobby effort in Alaska is huge both commercial and sport . I have never understood the Sport Fishing lobby group in this province as they seem hell bent on a fight and have been for years . Maybe they could have supplied data and helped their cause when the 88 12 split came about . I have been out of it for years and did get out because of the uncertainty , never knew from year to year what may happen . Still think there is a place for the commercial sector as once in a while I like to go buy a piece of fish to eat . Still get out and catch my own when i get a chance like most of the people on this thread . I just see a polarized fight brewing with no winners . Why not put an observer on a lodge and collect some real data and be accountable instead of trying to demand more fish . I have said this before but why don't we all demand the right to go sport logging and scoop some quota from Western and Canfors quota . What do you loggers on this thread think of that idea . Just would like to see some resolution . Some will still think I am pro commercial which is not the case . I am just sick of the give me attitude of the paid lobbyists(both sides) the stir the crap . Look at the Black Cod Assn in this province . For 48 licences they wield a big stick and are guarding their piece of the pie just like Bob , not right at all . Thats my rant and I would think that lots of people will disagree but think about the whole picture as it is very complex and I guarantee you all that we will lose fish to the Americans in the future .

[bogman]

Dry fly, I can't speak for the accuracy of the other lodges numbers but I can tell you the every fish of every species that is caught at mine gets recorded and the numbers are turned into DFO 3-4 times per summer or when ever they come around to get them. I believe most of the lodges turn acurate numbers in on a regular basis but again I can only speak with certainty of mine.
If it comes down to oberservers I'll retire for a second time and this time there will be no hope of getting me out

[dryflyguy57]

Glad to hear you are being accountable out there . I hope there is something in place , maybe some of the guides that are out there working can shed some light . Its a complex issue that goes beyond our borders . I will watch this fight from the sidelines and hope we as resident anglers don't lose out .

[ratherbefishin]

don't know if this is accurate,but I'm told the commercial fishery[mainly owned by 4 licence holders]gets 88% of the allotment and the recreational fishery shares the remaining 12%....

I'm looking at the long liners off Sooke targeting dogfish-and wonder how much of the bicatch is halibut....then there was the ''test fishery'' with a long line right off Jordan river a couple of years ago -nope-we didn't get any halibut that day

[pro 111]

HiYa Folks,

The battle over access to this once common property resource has now commenced in earnest. Should the situation continue the way it is, recreational halibut fishing will most likely be cut off for all by some time in July. Not at all due to "conservation concerns" as this resource is doing better than most. Nope, the reason for the closure is completely due to the Dino having GIFTED 88% of the annual Total Allowable Catch (TAC) to 436 commercail operators. Many of which do not even bother to set foot on a boat, far preferring to lease their "Gift" at exorbitant rates to those who actually fish.

There are a series of town-hall style meeting being scheduled up and down the coast. Newspaper and magazine articles are out, and there are more to follow.

What the Government has done in the case of this once public resource is WRONG! Turning a public resource into a private commodity to the benefit of a handful of "Armchair" or "Slipper Skippers" must not be tolerated. This is the first step to privatization of all our fisheries folks - a VERY Dangerous trend!

Time to stand up and be counted Folks! Attend the meetings, get your buddies to do the same, write a few letters to your MP's, and get the message out there: We WILL NOT stand idly by and watch our access to common property fisheries be stripped away in favor of the already fat wallets of a handful of Fat Cat commercial harvesters!

A few items of note here:

http://www.canada.com/2010+halibut+season+...5310/story.html (http://www.canada.com/2010+halibut+season+peril/3955310/story.html)

http://www.canada.com/Dear+John+make+call/3955308/story.html

Related Poll in the Island Courier: http://www2.canada.com/courierislander/index.html

Nog - Engaged Firmly In This One!
You guys should do your ****ing homework before you go slandering a bunch of men that really work for a living. I paid 700k for my halibut Quta , I have 3 kids and a wife , boat payments and a lot of stress. Mabe you should talk to all the old people and just people in general that like eating fish that live all over Canada that can't aford to come out to the coast to go sports fishing. Or just do not enjoy the water. We provide food for the country . It has huge spin offs with all the restaurants and all the fish markets countrywide , as well as being very well managed.Don't forget that 5 years ago the overall TAC for BC was 47%higher and you sports guys never came close to catching your TAC , you actually leased us back your uncaught fish. We are all struggling with the lack of quota right now but give it a few years the stocks are healing well and coming back strong and we will all be sitting pretty good. And lets not forget the real reason the sports guys need more fish. Its because the majoraty of you guys are greedy , trying to build your own empire , never happy with one boat all of a sudden you need 3 boats , or 6 lodges up and down the coast. You guys are slowly but surely becoming the enemy with the eye of the public with your false acusations and lack of respect for conservation. Lets not bullshit each other now. What do you guys do with all your rockfish species when your limmited out on them before you limmit out on your halibut? There are some of you that are probably very good at what you do and understand how to avoid the rockfish , but all bs aside you guys leave rockfish driffting all the time while fishing either salmon or halibut. Justifying it with a picture of an eagle swooping down just doesn't cut it. Its the commercial sports sector that is screwing it up for everyone as they are the only sector that wants to grow at everyone elses expense , with no regard for conservation. When you are monitored 24/7 then you can expect to get somewhere with your 88/12 split but until then , you are being watched , and scrutinized by the public and the biologists , and loosing respect all over the globe.
From a proud youg British Columbian , Born and raised in the QCIslands.
PS don't try and squeeze us to hard or you may see a lot more sporties in your area with a hell of a lot more knowhow than your averge bunch , and a lot nicer boats.
PSS . Rick Grange of Massett BC is way ahead of most of you guys as he has already bought himself some quota so he can operate his commercial sports fishery. Smart move Rick as you just bumped the price of Halibut Quota up , you small timers out ther better stop complaing and jump on board or your all going to be wiped out.

[.300WSMImpact!]

You guys should do your ****ing homework before you go slandering a bunch of men that really work for a living. I paid 700k for my halibut Quta , I have 3 kids and a wife , boat payments and a lot of stress. Mabe you should talk to all the old people and just people in general that like eating fish that live all over Canada that can't aford to come out to the coast to go sports fishing. Or just do not enjoy the water. We provide food for the country . It has huge spin offs with all the restaurants and all the fish markets countrywide , as well as being very well managed.Don't forget that 5 years ago the overall TAC for BC was 47%higher and you sports guys never came close to catching your TAC , you actually leased us back your uncaught fish. We are all struggling with the lack of quota right now but give it a few years the stocks are healing well and coming back strong and we will all be sitting pretty good. And lets not forget the real reason the sports guys need more fish. Its because the majoraty of you guys are greedy , trying to build your own empire , never happy with one boat all of a sudden you need 3 boats , or 6 lodges up and down the coast. You guys are slowly but surely becoming the enemy with the eye of the public with your false acusations and lack of respect for conservation. Lets not bullshit each other now. What do you guys do with all your rockfish species when your limmited out on them before you limmit out on your halibut? There are some of you that are probably very good at what you do and understand how to avoid the rockfish , but all bs aside you guys leave rockfish driffting all the time while fishing either salmon or halibut. Justifying it with a picture of an eagle swooping down just doesn't cut it. Its the commercial sports sector that is screwing it up for everyone as they are the only sector that wants to grow at everyone elses expense , with no regard for conservation. When you are monitored 24/7 then you can expect to get somewhere with your 88/12 split but until then , you are being watched , and scrutinized by the public and the biologists , and loosing respect all over the globe.
From a proud youg British Columbian , Born and raised in the QCIslands.
PS don't try and squeeze us to hard or you may see a lot more sporties in your area with a hell of a lot more knowhow than your averge bunch , and a lot nicer boats.
PSS . Rick Grange of Massett BC is way ahead of most of you guys as he has already bought himself some quota so he can operate his commercial sports fishery. Smart move Rick as you just bumped the price of Halibut Quota up , you small timers out ther better stop complaing and jump on board or your all going to be wiped out.

that's a pretty ignorant assumption, I will stop there, I am sure others will not

[pro 111]

that's a pretty ignorant assumption, I will stop there, I am sure others will not
Still Waiting , make sure your facts are correct though!

[IronNoggin]

I'll get back to you soon.
Unfortunately had a very good Friend pass away suddenly and unexpectedly, and simply cannot focus on this matter right now. :(
Will soon...

Rest assured we are not "slandering a bunch of men that really work for a living". I have nothing but respect, for many I count amongst my close Friends...

I will get back to you when my mind can do so...

Nog

[dryflyguy57]

don't know if this is accurate,but I'm told the commercial fishery[mainly owned by 4 licence holders]gets 88% of the allotment and the recreational fishery shares the remaining 12%....

I'm looking at the long liners off Sooke targeting dogfish-and wonder how much of the bicatch is halibut....then there was the ''test fishery'' with a long line right off Jordan river a couple of years ago -nope-we didn't get any halibut that day

Probably the most ill-informed post I have seen yet . Do you too think the lodges are recreational fellas . They will milk the recreational 12 % until they are forced to buy some quota which like I said earlier Bob Wright has already done . Go to Langara and watch the catch effort of all sectors , still some fish to be had by all . To blame your poor results on some longliner fishing totally different bottom is pushing it . Doggies like mud and mid water , most are on the gear before it hits the bottom . Sure there is some bycatch but that exists in every sector including yours . The Sportfish Advisory Group is screwing it up for all of us by causing the so called halibut wars .

[pro 111]

Very well put , Dryfly guy.:-D

[Opinionated Ol Phart]

Well-- isnt this just SPECIAL:???: Pro111 you paid a whole bunch of money to purchase quota off a slipper skipper that was given it for FREE by the govt . And now the sports sector is the baddy because we are finally getting tired of the rip-off that saw 88% of the TAC GIVEN (yes-- that means FREE!! :evil:) to 436 commercial fishermen. And the estimated 100,000 recreational fishermen get a measly 12% of the Canadian TAC??? and you think thats FAIR?

And as far as the SFAB creating the halibut wars??? Do your homework.... That is complete BULL#@!%.

[dryflyguy57]

Well-- isnt this just SPECIAL:???: Pro111 you paid a whole bunch of money to purchase quota off a slipper skipper that was given it for FREE by the govt . And now the sports sector is the baddy because we are finally getting tired of the rip-off that saw 88% of the TAC GIVEN (yes-- that means FREE!! :evil:) to 436 commercial fishermen. And the estimated 100,000 recreational fishermen get a measly 12% of the Canadian TAC??? and you think thats FAIR?

And as far as the SFAB creating the halibut wars??? Do your homework.... That is complete BULL#@!%.

I see you are living up to your handle . Did my homework and made my comments that express my opinion . Its your right to disagree just as i do with your comments . Just remember i am now a sportie and have no axe to grind with the rec fisherman , just don't agree that the commercial sport fishery is sport and the stance the SFAB takes as they are a mouthpiece for the lodges . As far as the commercial sector goes of course they are going to be pissed when somebody is trying to take away their livelihood . I don't know what you do for a living but if you invested in something and somebody tried to shut you down you would probably react . Was involved for many years in the industry . The lodges should buy quota to address their catch and also be accountable for every pound they remove from the ocean . If you don't like what i say get over it and debate with some facts .

[lorneparker1]

. Was involved for many years in the industry . The lodges should buy quota to address their catch and also be accountable for every pound they remove from the ocean ..


Are the commercial guys accountable for every pound they remove from the ocean? Just a question.

I have another question as well, How did DFO know that the sortfisherman reached there quota? what kind of hard data did they use? Myself and MANY MANY others have never seen a dfo do any kind of sport fishing count.

Thanks

Lorne

[RJ]

I see you are living up to your handle . Did my homework and made my comments that express my opinion . Its your right to disagree just as i do with your comments . Just remember i am now a sportie and have no axe to grind with the rec fisherman , just don't agree that the commercial sport fishery is sport and the stance the SFAB takes as they are a mouthpiece for the lodges . As far as the commercial sector goes of course they are going to be pissed when somebody is trying to take away their livelihood . I don't know what you do for a living but if you invested in something and somebody tried to shut you down you would probably react . Was involved for many years in the industry . The lodges should buy quota to address their catch and also be accountable for every pound they remove from the ocean . If you don't like what i say get over it and debate with some facts .

Commercial fishermen make their living selling people a product that already belongs to them. You wonder why people are angry they are being prevented from taking if from the ocean themselves?

[dryflyguy57]

Lorne , They have their fish validated every delivery . It is weighed and tagged .. RJ not everybody can go catch a fish in the ocean . You see the lodges are already screwing us. What would chefs like Gatehouse do if there was no commercial fishery . No halibut on the menu I guess . You obviously don't care for the commercial sector so no matter what I say ain't going to matter to you . Have a good holiday everyone .

[lorneparker1]

Thanks Dryfly for the response. What about the second part of my post though?

[dryflyguy57]

Thanks Dryfly for the response. What about the second part of my post though?

I think Bogman on page 2 has a good post . It has been very difficult to get some lodges to agree to any count except those that are obviously responsible about removals from the biomass such as Bogman's operation. I run a dock up north that caters to sport and commercial and have seen no count by DFO except a summer student that comes by from time to time , but no actual count taken . Just a survey . Whats wrong with a log book that everyone must fill out or halibut tags just like deer . If we don't get a handle on this the fish will suffer . As Pro 111 said the Total Allowable catch that is set by the International halibut Commission has shrunk by 47 % in recent years . Of course everyone will have to deal with less allocation . Some on here want to keep the status quo and take from one sector to grow another . That approach won't fly and all we get is conflict and nothing solved . Hell that is why i got out 10 years ago . Maybe somebody else has something to add about the recreational catch .

[Keta1969]

B.C. resident recreational fishermen need to wake up and smell the coffee.Lodges are no different than a guide outfitter,they make their money off the resource and hide behind the sportfishing lable.How would we like it if guide out fitters could bring in an unlimited number of clients to hunt elk or moose until a number was reached and the season then closed for everyone.Lodges should be required to own halibut quota that they then sell to their guests if they wish to kill a halibut.They should also be subject to the same monitoring and catch reporting regime as the commercial fleet

[pro 111]

B.C. resident recreational fishermen need to wake up and smell the coffee.Lodges are no different than a guide outfitter,they make their money off the resource and hide behind the sportfishing lable.How would we like it if guide out fitters could bring in an unlimited number of clients to hunt elk or moose until a number was reached and the season then closed for everyone.Lodges should be required to own halibut quota that they then sell to their guests if they wish to kill a halibut.They should also be subject to the same monitoring and catch reporting regime as the commercial fleet
Way to keep it simple and to the point. Sounds like the TAC is going up this year a bit anyhow so hopefully the alocation will be better for all. I just hope that all the resident sports fisherman that are just out to catch a fish for dinner don't get the short end of the stick.

[IronNoggin]

So, you purchased your halibut quota, and actually prosecute the fishery for that yourself. I have a handful of Buddies lierally in the same boat, and have nothing but respect for those that do this. They (and yourself I assume) are very hard working individuals, extremely knowledgeable of the sea and her denizens, and the type of Men I like to associate with.

That is not the issue. The thrust of this matter has very much to do with our federal government removing (without consent) 88% of the TAC from the Common Property Pool, and then simply giving that away For FREE to a handful of commercial operations. In a great many folks' eyes, that was WRONG.

The situation today is that but a small percentage of those who "own" this now Privately Traded Commodity actually fish their own portion of the overall TAC. The majority no longer even set foot on a boat, far preferring to engage in other activities whilst "leasing" their access to the resource to others at a rather exorbitant rate. Those that do lease quota work as hard as you do, yet at the end of the day have a much more trying time to make those boat payments you refer to. Once fuel, food, equipment, crew shares and the other related expenses are addressed, they see rather little jingle in their pockets for their efforts. Very little opportunity to get ahead under this regime.

To many, myself amongst them as well as quite a few of those who fish halibut commercially that I know (many btw) the lease system should become obsolete. Fish it yourself or lose it. Period. The days of getting fat on the backs of men such as yourself should be done away with. Padding the wallets of absentee "owners" does nothing to support the industry beyond simply padding already burgeoning wallets.

There have been several recent years when the overall commercial quota has not been realized. And the gist of that isn't so much an issue of not being able to catch them, but more focused on economic viability. When the prices go down, the effort slows. Couple that with the vast amount of product in storage further depressing product values, and there is a backlog of halibut both in cold storage, and swimming out there. Definitely some "wiggle room" to provide for a moderate increase to the recreational sector's catch...


... And lets not forget the real reason the sports guys need more fish. Its because the majoraty of you guys are greedy , trying to build your own empire , never happy with one boat all of a sudden you need 3 boats , or 6 lodges up and down the coast...

Perhaps a few fit your description. However my personal experience suggests not nearly as many as you would have us believe. Yes, there are some larger operations based on our coast. But the days of expansion, especially under our current economic climate, are more than a thing of the past. Many Lodges have shut their doors and/or traded hands as a consequence of the dwindling client base. The Lodges might be able to ride this downturn out, some will, some won't. The impact on the small operators (such as myself) has been quite noticeable.

The vast majority of the guide/operators I know run fairly small shows. Most simply a single rig, a few with two, many less so with more than that. To suggest "greed" is the underlying reason for wishing to see a more equitable split to the TAC is in error. Most simply want to see reliability (as apposed to complete uncertainty) of access to the resource through the fishing season. Tough on people who come a long way simply to angle for one or two for the table to be turned away with the words "DFO closed it again". Tough to operate any business in that climate of uncertainty.

And while many do rely on the product commercially obtained, there is a large group of people from both near and far that wish to obtain their table fare by their own hand. Not to different from hunting IMHO. Does that also consitute "greed"?


Its the commercial sports sector that is screwing it up for everyone as they are the only sector that wants to grow at everyone elses expense , with no regard for conservation.

Methinks you might want to do a little "homework" yourself on this matter. An awful amount of time, money and energy are expended each and every year by those engaged in the recreational industry for the purposes of enhancement and conservation. Much as hunters do, it is in their direct best interest to work towards maintaining and enhancing those stocks that support the fishing for all. And as noted above, the "commercial sports sector" isn't currently in a state of growth, actually the very reverse is true, and likely will be for a considerable time.


PS don't try and squeeze us to hard or you may see a lot more sporties in your area with a hell of a lot more knowhow than your averge bunch , and a lot nicer boats.

Guiding isn't simply having the nicest boat, nor simply the understanding of how to catch fish. There are MAJOR factors based on the ability to be a "People Person" and keep your clients happy and returning even when the fishing is less than stellar. And while I count many commercial operators amongst my closest Friends, there are damn few that could make that transition successfully.


you small timers out ther better stop complaing and jump on board or your all going to be wiped out.

That some will be affected is a given. The prophecy of "all going to be wiped out" is more than a little off base. The people involved are resiliant, determined, and happen to encompass more than a few "Thinking" individuals that collectively will make something of a difference. You WILL see this happen.

Pro 111, I am not singling you out specifically. Simply replying to what you have written. There very much is a place for both sectors to operate, and owner/operators such as yourself are to be admired for their tenacity and effort. Where the problem began was when The Dino decided to gift away a publicly owned resource. That has now been quite compounded by the manipulations of absentee "owners" who control the lives of honest working men and women, effectively block negotiations for transferring quota numbers to the opposing sector, and get very very wealthy on the backs of what should be still a Public Resource. It is time (overdue actually) for this system to be well scrutinized, and altered such that the real fishermen out there realize the benefit of their labors, and at the same time provide for a reliable recreational season. I don't know of any other way to rectify the current mess than doing so. The "Sporties" ain't asking for your quota, they are simply requesting a more equitable split in order to stabilize the existing fishery.

Is there room for improvement on the Recreational side? Of course! The current methods DFO uses to "guesstimate" their catch are beyond simplistic, and well subject to extremely wide variation from what really gets landed. That alone would help dramatically, and is something we are striving to get into place. Nor would many question the emplacement of annual "tags" such as is done with springs in BC. This is something else that could help track the real catch figures, and make the sector more accountable. And, another matter being investigated.

I hope your season goes well Pro 111. Shouldn't be all that difficult for you to understand that most of us "small-time" guys hope the same for our own little shows. Without change, the uncertainty those such as I face is extremely problematic. Between that, and the method DFO employed to strip access to a Common Property Resource away from the Common Property Pool and transfer that into a Privately Traded Commodity, many are incensed at what they feel was a down-right rip off. That many have formed a groundswell which grows daily. Again, they ain't after YOUR livelihood, but methinks those even with deep pockets that continue to manipulate the fishery while never setting foot on a boat might want to make notice...

Change is coming. :wink:

Cheers,
Nog

[Johnnybear]

So, you purchased your halibut quota, and actually prosecute the fishery for that yourself. I have a handful of Buddies lierally in the same boat, and have nothing but respect for those that do this. They (and yourself I assume) are very hard working individuals, extremely knowledgeable of the sea and her denizens, and the type of Men I like to associate with.

That is not the issue. The thrust of this matter has very much to do with our federal government removing (without consent) 88% of the TAC from the Common Property Pool, and then simply giving that away For FREE to a handful of commercial operations. In a great many folks' eyes, that was WRONG.

The situation today is that but a small percentage of those who "own" this now Privately Traded Commodity actually fish their own portion of the overall TAC. The majority no longer even set foot on a boat, far preferring to engage in other activities whilst "leasing" their access to the resource to others at a rather exorbitant rate. Those that do lease quota work as hard as you do, yet at the end of the day have a much more trying time to make those boat payments you refer to. Once fuel, food, equipment, crew shares and the other related expenses are addressed, they see rather little jingle in their pockets for their efforts. Very little opportunity to get ahead under this regime.

To many, myself amongst them as well as quite a few of those who fish halibut commercially that I know (many btw) the lease system should become obsolete. Fish it yourself or lose it. Period. The days of getting fat on the backs of men such as yourself should be done away with. Padding the wallets of absentee "owners" does nothing to support the industry beyond simply padding already burgeoning wallets.

There have been several recent years when the overall commercial quota has not been realized. And the gist of that isn't so much an issue of not being able to catch them, but more focused on economic viability. When the prices go down, the effort slows. Couple that with the vast amount of product in storage further depressing product values, and there is a backlog of halibut both in cold storage, and swimming out there. Definitely some "wiggle room" to provide for a moderate increase to the recreational sector's catch...



Perhaps a few fit your description. However my personal experience suggests not nearly as many as you would have us believe. Yes, there are some larger operations based on our coast. But the days of expansion, especially under our current economic climate, are more than a thing of the past. Many Lodges have shut their doors and/or traded hands as a consequence of the dwindling client base. The Lodges might be able to ride this downturn out, some will, some won't. The impact on the small operators (such as myself) has been quite noticeable.

The vast majority of the guide/operators I know run fairly small shows. Most simply a single rig, a few with two, many less so with more than that. To suggest "greed" is the underlying reason for wishing to see a more equitable split to the TAC is in error. Most simply want to see reliability (as apposed to complete uncertainty) of access to the resource through the fishing season. Tough on people who come a long way simply to angle for one or two for the table to be turned away with the words "DFO closed it again". Tough to operate any business in that climate of uncertainty.

And while many do rely on the product commercially obtained, there is a large group of people from both near and far that wish to obtain their table fare by their own hand. Not to different from hunting IMHO. Does that also consitute "greed"?



Methinks you might want to do a little "homework" yourself on this matter. An awful amount of time, money and energy are expended each and every year by those engaged in the recreational industry for the purposes of enhancement and conservation. Much as hunters do, it is in their direct best interest to work towards maintaining and enhancing those stocks that support the fishing for all. And as noted above, the "commercial sports sector" isn't currently in a state of growth, actually the very reverse is true, and likely will be for a considerable time.



Guiding isn't simply having the nicest boat, nor simply the understanding of how to catch fish. There are MAJOR factors based on the ability to be a "People Person" and keep your clients happy and returning even when the fishing is less than stellar. And while I count many commercial operators amongst my closest Friends, there are damn few that could make that transition successfully.



That some will be affected is a given. The prophecy of "all going to be wiped out" is more than a little off base. The people involved are resiliant, determined, and happen to encompass more than a few "Thinking" individuals that collectively will make something of a difference. You WILL see this happen.

Pro 111, I am not singling you out specifically. Simply replying to what you have written. There very much is a place for both sectors to operate, and owner/operators such as yourself are to be admired for their tenacity and effort. Where the problem began was when The Dino decided to gift away a publicly owned resource. That has now been quite compounded by the manipulations of absentee "owners" who control the lives of honest working men and women, effectively block negotiations for transferring quota numbers to the opposing sector, and get very very wealthy on the backs of what should be still a Public Resource. It is time (overdue actually) for this system to be well scrutinized, and altered such that the real fishermen out there realize the benefit of their labors, and at the same time provide for a reliable recreational season. I don't know of any other way to rectify the current mess than doing so. The "Sporties" ain't asking for your quota, they are simply requesting a more equitable split in order to stabilize the existing fishery.

Is there room for improvement on the Recreational side? Of course! The current methods DFO uses to "guesstimate" their catch are beyond simplistic, and well subject to extremely wide variation from what really gets landed. That alone would help dramatically, and is something we are striving to get into place. Nor would many question the emplacement of annual "tags" such as is done with springs in BC. This is something else that could help track the real catch figures, and make the sector more accountable. And, another matter being investigated.

I hope your season goes well Pro 111. Shouldn't be all that difficult for you to understand that most of us "small-time" guys hope the same for our own little shows. Without change, the uncertainty those such as I face is extremely problematic. Between that, and the method DFO employed to strip access to a Common Property Resource away from the Common Property Pool and transfer that into a Privately Traded Commodity, many are incensed at what they feel was a down-right rip off. That many have formed a groundswell which grows daily. Again, they ain't after YOUR livelihood, but methinks those even with deep pockets that continue to manipulate the fishery while never setting foot on a boat might want to make notice...

Change is coming. :wink:

Cheers,
Nog

Totally awesome reply/post Matt:wink:.

Not ignorant like many have posted.

Not selfish like many have posted.

Not exclusive like many have posted.

Just the BARE facts.

Kudos to you for being both a commercial fisherman and sportsfisherman with a grasp on what is going on and not throwing out propaganda like others have posted here.

[IronNoggin]

Important Town Hall Meeting January 18th
7:00 PM Beban Auditorium, Nanaimo

A totally inadequate, biased allocation system of Canada’s halibut will create a short season disaster for all of us. Come to hear the facts, and find out what you can do about it. Halibut is the concern now, but other species are scheduled for the same treatment by DFO….We need to send a message immediately that this is unacceptable.

Guest speakers will outline the issue, a panel representing several segments of the public fishery will give their perspectives and there will be an open mike session where you can ask questions and offer your comments, and suggestions.

There will be a raffle for a number of prizes, draw at the end of the meeting to help pay the costs of the hall rental. Come and bring a friend, this may be the most important contribution you make to future fishing for all of us.

EITHER WE STAND UP NOW OR BE STOOD UPON FOREVER!

[IronNoggin]

Time to get off our butts, get a few letters in and attend a meeting or two folks!

Important Public Town Hall Meetings Announced:

Ucluelet: January 6th 7pm Ucluelet Sea Plane Base Hall

Victoria: Jan 12th Location TBA

Nanaimo: Jan 18th Beban Park Auditorium

Victoria: Jan 19th, Location TBA

Hope to see some of you there! :wink:

Cheers,
Nog

[Sleep Robber]

You guys should do your ****ing homework before you go slandering a bunch of men that really work for a living. I paid 700k for my halibut Quta , I have 3 kids and a wife , boat payments and a lot of stress. Mabe you should talk to all the old people and just people in general that like eating fish that live all over Canada that can't aford to come out to the coast to go sports fishing. Or just do not enjoy the water. We provide food for the country . It has huge spin offs with all the restaurants and all the fish markets countrywide , as well as being very well managed.Don't forget that 5 years ago the overall TAC for BC was 47%higher and you sports guys never came close to catching your TAC , you actually leased us back your uncaught fish. We are all struggling with the lack of quota right now but give it a few years the stocks are healing well and coming back strong and we will all be sitting pretty good. And lets not forget the real reason the sports guys need more fish. Its because the majoraty of you guys are greedy , trying to build your own empire , never happy with one boat all of a sudden you need 3 boats , or 6 lodges up and down the coast. You guys are slowly but surely becoming the enemy with the eye of the public with your false acusations and lack of respect for conservation. Lets not bullshit each other now. What do you guys do with all your rockfish species when your limmited out on them before you limmit out on your halibut? There are some of you that are probably very good at what you do and understand how to avoid the rockfish , but all bs aside you guys leave rockfish driffting all the time while fishing either salmon or halibut. Justifying it with a picture of an eagle swooping down just doesn't cut it. Its the commercial sports sector that is screwing it up for everyone as they are the only sector that wants to grow at everyone elses expense , with no regard for conservation. When you are monitored 24/7 then you can expect to get somewhere with your 88/12 split but until then , you are being watched , and scrutinized by the public and the biologists , and loosing respect all over the globe.
From a proud youg British Columbian , Born and raised in the QCIslands.
PS don't try and squeeze us to hard or you may see a lot more sporties in your area with a hell of a lot more knowhow than your averge bunch , and a lot nicer boats.
PSS . Rick Grange of Massett BC is way ahead of most of you guys as he has already bought himself some quota so he can operate his commercial sports fishery. Smart move Rick as you just bumped the price of Halibut Quota up , you small timers out ther better stop complaing and jump on board or your all going to be wiped out.


Good to see somebody knows what the hell their talking about around here. Here's to ya pro111 !!!

My Old man was fishing commercial halibut off the Pribilof Islands before half you sorry ba$tards were even born. he went through the hardships like all commercial fishers have gone through over the years, and to here some of the bullshit coming from so called fishermen that would get seasick in a 2 foot chop let alone some actual sea, pi$$es me off.

My father went to every halibut commission meeting there was, unless he was at sea, and your so called "sporty leader" was hardly ever there then, but now you start to complain and complain like a bunch of sissy's. Guys like Fred Kozie {I could name dozens more} would turn over in their graves if they could hear your bellyaching. I cant help but laugh at the works of you now, and would suggest, if your a guiding outfit, you go buy or lease some quota off one of the true Halibut fishermen, and cover your own assess, cause if you don't, you'll be selling that fancy rig that you own, and your clients that you over charge to catch a few fish will be long gone or staying in their homelands.

Being a commercial fisherman as well as a sports fisherman, I have written letters to both people in my sector, explaining my feelings on the issues at hand, and all I have to say is that sports fishermen have a hell of a lot to learn before they can start mouthing off about the commercial sector. Do your F-----G homework first :twisted:

In the end, I would like everybody to be able to take part in the fishing of halibut, commercial and sport, but if it comes down to it and I have to side with one or the other, the commercial sector gets my vote 100%.

I'll never go without a halibut to eat, I know that for sure. :twisted: :twisted:

[dryflyguy57]

"Sleep Robber" nicest longliner on the coast in its day . When there was no sport fishery 0% . There is a history to this fishery , not guys like Johnny Come Lately who feel they are entitled with their brilliant posts . Wake up boys and girls the lodges are going to scoop your food fish before OUR very eyes until the rules change . You are already feeling the effects this coming summer . Iron noggin states the fishery is decline . What would happen if the economy was thriving and the lodges were fully booked and they were building new ones every day . We may not be fishing past June this year . Think about it before you go to the "Halibut War" get together . I am for the rec sport not the commercial sport . If the sport fishery is to grow let the government buy quota for the recreational sport quota from the commercial sector . It is already happening between the natives and the commercial sector with quota(prove me wrong) . Get up to speed with the politics as this is the time to let your ideas be heard . Not me me me and call down everyone that has a differing opinion . I would like to see a resolution to this mess like most of you . DFO likes to divide and conquer and that is what is happening . They will take the cheapest route as they have economists on staff that spend all day working the numbers . A good New Year to all .

[Johnnybear]

"Sleep Robber" nicest longliner on the coast in its day . When there was no sport fishery 0% . There is a history to this fishery , not guys like Johnny Come Lately who feel they are entitled with their brilliant posts . Wake up boys and girls the lodges are going to scoop your food fish before OUR very eyes until the rules change . You are already feeling the effects this coming summer . Iron noggin states the fishery is decline . What would happen if the economy was thriving and the lodges were fully booked and they were building new ones every day . We may not be fishing past June this year . Think about it before you go to the "Halibut War" get together . I am for the rec sport not the commercial sport . If the sport fishery is to grow let the government buy quota for the recreational sport quota from the commercial sector . It is already happening between the natives and the commercial sector with quota(prove me wrong) . Get up to speed with the politics as this is the time to let your ideas be heard . Not me me me and call down everyone that has a differing opinion . I would like to see a resolution to this mess like most of you . DFO likes to divide and conquer and that is what is happening . They will take the cheapest route as they have economists on staff that spend all day working the numbers . A good New Year to all .

Here we again dryfly......

First underline: People have always fished for FOOD first not PROFIT. Food fishing was first before selling it to Mary Jo in North Dakota. Your zero percent gets a zero.

Second underline: What do you think those people eat after they catch their quota?:confused: FOOD fish.

Third underline: You must be scared about these meetings. I would like to know why if your for the sportsfisherman like you say?:wink: More anti propaganda.

Fourth underline: This is hard to believe from your previous posts and is total propaganda.

Fifth underline: What this fight is all about. The quota system that was given out in the first place. The sport fishery has grown and will continue to grow and provide this GREAT Province of ours economical benifits way beyond what the commercial sector can provide. The situation should be the other way around how does 12% sound to you and your associates:evil:.

Don't get me wrong. I am a hard working man also and provide for my family and I get that part. I hope there is some kind of settlement on the subject that works for everyone:-|. My whole probem is someone who sells fish telling me I can't catch fish to feed my family because now matter how you try to tell folks otherwise that comes first.

[dryflyguy57]

Was the commercial halibut fishery at the turn of the century for sport?
When I fished it for a living i bought off any boat that was selling in Comox off the dock .
Yes i am afraid of what is happening to the resource as WE as sports have never been accountable as a whole .
Believe what you want . I have been out of it for years .
if we are going to argue the point of more dollars per pound then is it right to displace one sector are the expense of others . I make my point ,lets go sport logging (screw Westerns Total Allowable Cut and take away their quota). As I said earlier this will get ugly by the approach of the Sport Sector vs. the commercial guys . I make a living off selling to both sectors and am not involved in the commercial sector personally . You obviously don't believe that but thats your hang up . What do you think of the lodges taking sport quota ? Are you fine with a sporty coming from Neah Bay to Swiftsure and catching our quota ? They can buy books of licences and fish away . Try that on the other side of the line . Are you fine with some lodges buying quota when the axe falls for them ? I am . Are you fine with no proper sport count . Do you think the lodges will have a closure with paid bookings ?(they didn't close when West Coast vancouver Island spring salmon were being caught in Hecate Strait and the Northern mainland last year and closed for 35 trollers in the north , scale samples to prove it )
What is your long term plan of the fishery ? Do you want to see the commercial fishery go away ? Do you think the total quota will be caught by sport fishers if this happened . As long as we post on this thread we will probably disagree but if i can make you think about a commercial sport fishery taking my foodfish in bookings even just a bit it is worth the fight . I have read your posts and believe it or not I may have come around a bit but calling a post you don't agree with "Ignorant " is not a debate .

[Johnnybear]

Was the commercial halibut fishery at the turn of the century for sport?
.

Was the halibut fishery used for FOOD not PROFIT before the turn of the century?

[dryflyguy57]

Not sure if the word JOB was around then . Maybe bartering was happening also and was profit if you got the better deal . I will give you that one . Seriously though what about the other questions ? My beef is with the lodges , not you going out to 12 mile for a halibut . I can't see why you don't care about the commercial sport catch impacting your season . I agree with Keta's post earlier equating the lodges to the guiding business in this province .

[Sleep Robber]

Here we again dryfly......

First underline: People have always fished for FOOD first not PROFIT. Food fishing was first before selling it to Mary Jo in North Dakota. Your zero percent gets a zero.

Second underline: What do you think those people eat after they catch their quota?:confused: FOOD fish.

Third underline: You must be scared about these meetings. I would like to know why?:wink: More anti propaganda.

Fourth underline: This is hard to believe from your previous posts and is total propaganda.

Fifth underline: What this fight is all about. The quota system that was given out in the first place. The sport fishery has grown and will continue to grow and provide this GREAT Province of ours economical benifits way beyond what the commercial sector can provide.

Christ almighty, another one that thinks he knows :roll:

I guess you think that there is a magical halibut tank out back of every restaurant and grocery store eh ?? Where did mom and dad buy you your fish and chips when you were a snot nosed kid at the fish and chip shop. I'm certain it wasn't from a first nation standing on the corner or a sports fisherman handing out fish to you as you entered. It was Commercially Caught Halibut/ Cod etc.

Maybe you think they should take halibut and a sh!t load of other fish species off the restaurant menus all together ?? Where do the tourists that make up a big part of the economic benefits you talk about eat halibut at ?? Answer is, "almost all commercially caught fish". I'm sure not all of them are able or even want to go out on some high priced guide boat or stay at some high priced lodge so they can catch their own for a feed of fish. Most more than others want to go to a nice place to eat, and then back to their site seeing and hotel rooms etc.

There is a place for all fisheries, commercial and sport, but when you start beaking off at the commercial guys, think first, it's not the fishermen's fault, it's the government who makes the decisions. Commercial fishermen have been around harvesting halibut for the world to eat for eons now, and will continue to do so, the demand is there and always will be. No one else on earth can supply this magnificent source but commercial fishermen, that is not even debatable !!

The meetings that are to going to take place, well, good luck on that, I just hope it's not going to be a whine and cheese party that's short on cheese. I wish you luck though, your gonna need it. I'm sure there are no worries from the commercial side as you seem to think there are.

It would be a shame for the sporty's to have their fish allowances down or to even lose the right to fish for halibut period, and I hope it never happens, but if it ever does, I'm glad I know how to bait a skate of gear, take my turn at the roller, and dress fish with the best of them, as I will always have fish for "my" family, hehe. :wink:

[Johnnybear]

Not sure if the word JOB was around then . Maybe bartering was happening also and was profit if you got the better deal . I will give you that one . Seriously though what about the other questions ? My beef is with the lodges , not you going out to 12 mile for a halibut . I can't see why you don't care about the commercial sport catch impacting your season . I agree with Keta's post earlier equating the lodges to the guiding business in this province .

I am grouped with them like it or not. ONE voice so to speak. I will be attending that meeting at Beban Park will you fellow sportsfisherman?

[dryflyguy57]

Not me . Interesting to see the turn out . Still think you are barking up the wrong tree IMHO . Hope there are some tough questions asked to the lodges but then again why would they show up . No disrespect to anyone out there that doesn't agree with me so I will leave it at that . Good to have a civil debate Johnnybear .

[Ozone]

No one else on earth can supply this magnificent source but commercial fishermen, that is not even debatable !!

Sorry to debate your non debatable "facts", but halibt is also farmed. Sorry to take you off your high horse, but you seemed to need it.

[Gateholio]

Yes, halibut is being farmed.

http://www.graigfarm.co.uk/sustainably_farmed_halibut.html

[Sleep Robber]

If you call something that can't grow more than 5 lbs a halibut, go ahead be my guest. Have yet to see it on the market, and hope I never do. Basically sh!t fish IMO, but whatever turns your crank I guess.

[IronNoggin]

... half you sorry ba$tards...
... and to here some of the bullshit coming from so called fishermen that would get seasick in a 2 foot chop let alone some actual sea, pi$$es me off...
... a bunch of sissy's...
...Christ almighty, another one that thinks he knows...
...snot nosed kid...
...it's the government who makes the decisions.
...I wish you luck though, your gonna need it...
...I'll never go without a halibut to eat, I know that for sure. :twisted: :twisted:
...I'm glad I know how to bait a skate of gear, take my turn at the roller, and dress fish with the best of them, as I will always have fish for "my" family, hehe.

The single thing you managed to get right in your rather venomous drivelings regards the government and their woeful decision making process. They handed over "ownership" of a Common Property Resource to a handful of individuals, of which 1/4 actually fish their gifted quotas in any given season. That was the origin of the problem.

The focus simply is NOT those hard working men and women who run their own boats working their own quota, no matter how hard you to try to say it is so. I have nothing but respect for those that do so. I do however have a serious problem with the fellas that govern the fishery from their plush armchairs, get wealthy on the backs of honest fisherman and the resource, and often display the attitude you so eloquently portray here.

Today, the absentee "owners" have their cake and the icing too. 100,000 plus anglers are stacking up against this injustice, and more than a handful of Town Council's are waking to the issue that directly effects their economic viability. Methinks we will soon bear witness to whatever influence they collectively might carry...

For those that choose to focus on guide / lodge operations, I suggest you are directly buying into The Dino's well understood tactic of divide and conquer. The guide or lodge is not taking sport caught halibut, rather facilitating and accommodating an angler so that angler can harvest their own fish. Get over it.

It's not about commercial, FN, guide or rec fishing. It is all about a flawed allocation system, and bogus poundage computation by DFO. The current situation in this regard is simply more than problematic. The drive now, just as simply, is to rectify those problems, and come up with a more accountable, and equitable division of this Public Resource.

Just a couple notes in closing Sleep Robber: While you suggest that you believe there is room for both sectors, your own words strongly suggest otherwise. Pounding out what you have here very much resembles the antics of a schoolyard bully. Name calling, equating recreational fishers to "sorry *******s, sissies, so-called fishermen and snot nosed kids" may make you feel somehow superior, but methinks you well underestimate just who those sportfishers are. And btw, just how far your own words carry.

You also crow about never going without halibut to eat. Under today's Regulations, taking "food fish" home from a halibut boat is Illegal. Period. Do you, by your own hand, brand yourself a Poacher? :confused:

Cheers,
Nog

[Sleep Robber]

The single thing you managed to get right in your rather venomous drivelings regards the government and their woeful decision making process. They handed over "ownership" of a Common Property Resource to a handful of individuals, of which 1/4 actually fish their gifted quotas in any given season. That was the origin of the problem.

The focus simply is NOT those hard working men and women who run their own boats working their own quota, no matter how hard you to try to say it is so. I have nothing but respect for those that do so. I do however have a serious problem with the fellas that govern the fishery from their plush armchairs, get wealthy on the backs of honest fisherman and the resource, and often display the attitude you so eloquently portray here.

Today, the absentee "owners" have their cake and the icing too. 100,000 plus anglers are stacking up against this injustice, and more than a handful of Town Council's are waking to the issue that directly effects their economic viability. Methinks we will soon bear witness to whatever influence they collectively might carry...

For those that choose to focus on guide / lodge operations, I suggest you are directly buying into The Dino's well understood tactic of divide and conquer. The guide or lodge is not taking sport caught halibut, rather facilitating and accommodating an angler so that angler can harvest their own fish. Get over it.

It's not about commercial, FN, guide or rec fishing. It is all about a flawed allocation system, and bogus poundage computation by DFO. The current situation in this regard is simply more than problematic. The drive now, just as simply, is to rectify those problems, and come up with a more accountable, and equitable division of this Public Resource.

Just a couple notes in closing Sleep Robber: While you suggest that you believe there is room for both sectors, your own words strongly suggest otherwise. Pounding out what you have here very much resembles the antics of a schoolyard bully. Name calling, equating recreational fishers to "sorry *******s, sissies, so-called fishermen and snot nosed kids" may make you feel somehow superior, but methinks you well underestimate just who those sportfishers are. And btw, just how far your own words carry.

You also crow about never going without halibut to eat. Under today's Regulations, taking "food fish" home from a halibut boat is Illegal. Period. Do you, by your own hand, brand yourself a Poacher? :confused:

Cheers,
Nog

Quote me all you want Matt,

I don't mean to upset anybody really, I'm just sticking up for us commercial guys, but I may be a little rough around the edges in doing so, for that I apologize.

If only they just gave up more fish for all sectors, nobody would be complaining. There is no shortage of halibut on this coast, that I do know. I'ver worked on the test boats from here to Prince William Sound as well as a basic crew member on a quota boat. There's lots of fish. Maybe instead of arguing about the quotas given out, ask for more fish.....period.

Your as commercial as I am Matt. You make part of your living off people while at sea, I see no difference. How to go about that is up for debate. If nothing happens to the guide/lodges, you won't see any sweat fall off my ass. It's in the small frame, not the big picture as far as I'm concerned. I do however think it should be addressed in some sort of way.

I don't have to poach Matt, when I take home fish, as well as the other crew members, the fish is taken off our boats quota, we lose out on the money end of it so we can eat it. Just like on the draggers and every other fishery I'm involved with. There's nothing illegal about it, if so the port monitors have been lying to us for many years now. And if that's the case too F'ing Bad. I work dam hard for my paycheck, and if I want to take a few feeds of halibut or whatever home with me , I will. Who you trying to kid anyway, wonder what your freezer looks like ?? :wink: And another thing Matt, if you want to hear someones thoughts on the quota, go give Viggo Mark a holler, just take a lunch, as you'll be there for a while!!!:-D

P.S I gave your name as a good guide for salmon to some guy on here on a different thread, so quit being a hard ass towards me :mrgreen: Have a nice day Matt, and I'm sorry to here about Dennis :cry: He was a terrific man !!!

[IronNoggin]

Just came across a tad rough was all SR. Methinks we should be able to debate the subject without tossing derogatory names back and forth.


Your as commercial as I am Matt.

Yes, I am. Not only do I operate a charter rig for most of the summer, I have been an Area G Troller for more than a decade now. When I noted that a lot of my Buddies are commercial operators, that was very true. Don't rub shoulders with the Bag Fleet Boyz much, but very much do so with the others in our sector, as well as a long list of halibut, black cod, tuna and dog fishers. Once it is in your blood... :wink:


There's lots of fish. Maybe instead of arguing about the quotas given out, ask for more fish.....

We are bound by the terms of the International Halibut Commission, and I am actually thankful that we are. They are well recognized a keeping this particular fishery well within the confines of sustainability. It is a FAR different scenario with almost every other species that is "managed" by DFO. Seems their particular form of management is to fish each species down to near extinction, and at least that they do a reasonably fine job of.

Sheer numbers ain't the answer. The equitable division of the TAC as established by the IHC is the issue. Tough to undue what the Gov did when it willing GAVE AWAY access to a Public Resource. That said, there exists some "wiggle room" and there are several possibilities to make this work. Foremost amongst those, and I hear this from the halibut fishers myself, is to do away with the absentee quota owners. Got quota? Use it or lose it. More rewards to those who actually work the boats, and more available for the other 99.9% of the Canadian population who supposedly "owns" this particular resource.

Sorry about the "Poacher" shot. That was uncalled for. I am aware that the boat can take fish home, after they have been counted and tagged. Most Skips I know simply don't allow that practice. With today's cameras, observers, dockside vaildators etc, it is rather tough to sneak any away, but it does happen. Thanks for answering that as I thought you might.

Bad-Ass is as Bad-Ass does. You were the one to start with the tossing of of insults my Friend, not I. I simply reacted accordingly. Methinks we can forgoe any more of that now eh! :wink:

Thanks for the recommend, I do appreciate that. And thanks for the kind words regarding the Steelheader. He was a Very Fine Man indeed. And, you might be interested to know that he was in very firm support of the tack we are taking on the halibut issue.

The issue of halibut allocation is a rather heated one, and many get their dander up on both sides of the matter. It will take some serious effort to bring about any positive changes, but I do believe it is do-able. Instead of bucking heads, methinks we should all be able to discuss the issues reasonably, and determine a course of action that can and will benefit the various user groups. I try, but there are times when my hard head and emotions overcome my reason. Hope that I can manage to stifle that down to a dull roar. Interesting times, and I honestly believe we will bear witness to some rather interesting changes in the not too distant future...

Cheers,
Nog

[bigwhiteys]

For those that choose to focus on guide / lodge operations, I suggest you are directly buying into The Dino's well understood tactic of divide and conquer. The guide or lodge is not taking sport caught halibut, rather facilitating and accommodating an angler so that angler can harvest their own fish. Get over it.

I have been following this thread, trying to learn about the issue.

Do the fishing lodges have any kind of Quota? Are they bound by any tenures? licensed areas? anything??

If one of the bigger lodges runs through 1000 halibut fisherman in a season and they each take 25 lbs of halibut home that's 25,000lbs of fish. (I am pulling these numbers out of thin air for easy math)

It just seems like the lodges (province wide) faciliate the catching of a large portion of the pie.

Carl

[Sleep Robber]

Just came across a tad rough was all SR. Methinks we should be able to debate the subject without tossing derogatory names back and forth.



Yes, I am. Not only do I operate a charter rig for most of the summer, I have been an Area G Troller for more than a decade now. When I noted that a lot of my Buddies are commercial operators, that was very true. Don't rub shoulders with the Bag Fleet Boyz much, but very much do so with the others in our sector, as well as a long list of halibut, black cod, tuna and dog fishers. Once it is in your blood... :wink:



We are bound by the terms of the International Halibut Commission, and I am actually thankful that we are. They are well recognized a keeping this particular fishery well within the confines of sustainability. It is a FAR different scenario with almost every other species that is "managed" by DFO. Seems their particular form of management is to fish each species down to near extinction, and at least that they do a reasonably fine job of.

Sheer numbers ain't the answer. The equitable division of the TAC as established by the IHC is the issue. Tough to undue what the Gov did when it willing GAVE AWAY access to a Public Resource. That said, there exists some "wiggle room" and there are several possibilities to make this work. Foremost amongst those, and I hear this from the halibut fishers myself, is to do away with the absentee quota owners. Got quota? Use it or lose it. More rewards to those who actually work the boats, and more available for the other 99.9% of the Canadian population who supposedly "owns" this particular resource.

Sorry about the "Poacher" shot. That was uncalled for. I am aware that the boat can take fish home, after they have been counted and tagged. Most Skips I know simply don't allow that practice. With today's cameras, observers, dockside vaildators etc, it is rather tough to sneak any away, but it does happen. Thanks for answering that as I thought you might.

Bad-Ass is as Bad-Ass does. You were the one to start with the tossing of of insults my Friend, not I. I simply reacted accordingly. Methinks we can forgoe any more of that now eh! :wink:

Thanks for the recommend, I do appreciate that. And thanks for the kind words regarding the Steelheader. He was a Very Fine Man indeed. And, you might be interested to know that he was in very firm support of the tack we are taking on the halibut issue.

The issue of halibut allocation is a rather heated one, and many get their dander up on both sides of the matter. It will take some serious effort to bring about any positive changes, but I do believe it is do-able. Instead of bucking heads, methinks we should all be able to discuss the issues reasonably, and determine a course of action that can and will benefit the various user groups. I try, but there are times when my hard head and emotions overcome my reason. Hope that I can manage to stifle that down to a dull roar. Interesting times, and I honestly believe we will bear witness to some rather interesting changes in the not too distant future...

Cheers,
Nog

Thanks for the reply Matt,

I guess I'm somewhat of a commercial slut, as I have fished everything you have mentioned :mrgreen:

When My father was alive, the words "Got quota ? Use it or Lose it" were constantly coming from his tongue, and I agree 100%. I know quite a few men that own quota, some which are great fishermen that still run their boats when fishing time comes. I also know quite a few that are on the other side of the world enjoying the luxuries of the rich life. Some are license holders in other fisheries as well {you know many of the same, no doubt}. Most of these men haven't set foot on board their own vessel in years, except to visit and check things from time to time. I do not take a liking to these men much anymore. My father lost his halibut job, a week before he was to sail, and the quota they fished was rather large, which made up probably 75% of his yearly earnings, due to the consequences of the boat owner leasing his halibut quota at the last minute and basically had nothing to say to his crew except it was in his best interest to do so. I despise that man to this day.Sorry if i come across as harsh, but I consider him a thief and a dirty rotten ba$tard for what he did to those men, he literally screwed up their lives with a phone call and signature.

The thing was, that back then, the crew basically earned that quota that was awarded to the boat in the first place by their hard work away from home. Most of the crewmen considered the quota to be as much theirs as the boats and rightly so IMO.My father did a lot of speaking on the crews behalf at the halibut commission meetings on this subject, but we all know how that turned out. don't we ? The small guys got it in the arse again.

I respect you as a fisherman Mathew,as well as a man fighting for what he believes in, and in no way was i here to belittle any of your ways my friend.

Maybe in the future we can hit the flow together for a friendly steel hunt. Until then Nog, good luck, I hope the meetings are civil, and something good comes from them

All my best to you and your loved ones in the New year my friend

Sleep Robber :cool:

[IronNoggin]

Do the fishing lodges have any kind of Quota? Are they bound by any tenures? licensed areas? anything??

The Lodges are bound only by the limitations of their number of boats, the capacity of those, and of course their range. There are no other constraints beyond attracting enough anglers to make the operation profitable (many of the mid to smaller ones are not much more than break even). The past couple of seasons many of the Lodges have bought into a precise catch recording program with DFO, and as such provide much more information regarding that catch than independent anglers do.


It just seems like the lodges (province wide) faciliate the catching of a large portion of the pie.

True, the lodges and the independent guides facilitate a large portion of the recreational catch. Not surprising, this is exactly what they do. And btw "facilitate" is absolutely the correct word. As I noted previously, they do not take sport caught halibut themselves, rather facilitate and accommodate anglers so that these can harvest their own fish. Given the expenses related to owning and operating a safe, reliable sea-worthy craft, and the years of experience it takes to ensure the wander out there is a SAFE one, it isn't tough to understand why a great many choose to go with the professionals.

Cheers,
Nog

[IronNoggin]

...Maybe in the future we can hit the flow together for a friendly steel hunt. Until then Nog, good luck, I hope the meetings are civil, and something good comes from them...

You are ON for steel! :mrgreen:
This last big push of water brought a LOT in. Once she starts to drop and clear, the FUN will begin in earnest! You'd be welcome to come wander along with me.

I too am very much hoping the meetings and letter campaigns result in something positive. Hard to capture the attention of The Dino, but methinks even it's single brain cell will have to acknowledge what they did was wrong, and start to pay attention to rectifying the Sins Of The Past.

Have a Happy New Year yourself. Hope to see you soon on the flow...

Cheers,
Nog

[bigwhiteys]

The Lodges are bound only by the limitations of their number of boats, the capacity of those, and of course their range. There are no other constraints beyond attracting enough anglers to make the operation profitable (many of the mid to smaller ones are not much more than break even). The past couple of seasons many of the Lodges have bought into a precise catch recording program with DFO, and as such provide much more information regarding that catch than independent anglers do.

The same could be said for most small business across the province, especially the last 2 years as far as revenue goes.

Lodges with the marketing dollars and the manpower to facilite lots of guests can make a sizeable dent in the pie.


True, the lodges and the independent guides facilitate a large portion of the recreational catch. Not surprising, this is exactly what they do. And btw "facilitate" is absolutely the correct word. As I noted previously, they do not take sport caught halibut themselves, rather facilitate and accommodate anglers so that these can harvest their own fish.

Without the opportunity to fish would people pay $1000 a day for a boat ride?

Sounds like Lodges and Guides get a bit of a free ride there with their catch being considered recreational.... Facilitating the catching of the fish is a commercial venture for profitable gain, it's only recreational for the guests.

The cost of running a business is a business owners choice. You know full well before starting said business (if you've done any research) on what you're operating costs are going to be like. Boats are expensive to run, remote lodges even more so... my family knows all about that.

Carl

[Keta1969]

IT's to bad this thread started off called halibut wars as it seems to lead to battles rather than dialogue.I'm still amazed that resident anglers aren't more upset about the commercial lodges take of halibut.Through all these discussions I've seen no one from the pro sport side come up with any recomendation on how to cap this catch.If more quota is gained whats to stop further expansion of the lodges on the coast and we'll be having this ''war'' again in a few years.The number of 100,000 sports fishermen is tossed out like all fish halibut.This is not the case as many don't have the boat or gear to do so safely.It would be great to know how many actually partake but i would be very surprised if it were more than 10--20,000.I'm a sport fisherman who doesn't want to spend that kind of money on a boat and gear.If I have halibut ,like most Canadians I buy it. WE need to stop Americans from fishing across the line.I also believe allowing the cheap access to all our fisheries to Americans is ridiculous.All the expensive rigs I see coming thru Campbell River all summer makes me sick.All halibut taken by these fishermen come off our tac.Try taking your boat across the line and see what happens.I still feel that lodges should be licensed and own quota.There needs to be meaningful discussion on the sports side I think when this happens commercial fishermen would be more willing to look at changes.The resident angler here is not the problem..

[Franko Manini]

You guys should do your ****ing homework before you go slandering a bunch of men that really work for a living. I paid 700k for my halibut Quta , I have 3 kids and a wife , boat payments and a lot of stress. Mabe you should talk to all the old people and just people in general that like eating fish that live all over Canada that can't aford to come out to the coast to go sports fishing. Or just do not enjoy the water. We provide food for the country . It has huge spin offs with all the restaurants and all the fish markets countrywide , as well as being very well managed.Don't forget that 5 years ago the overall TAC for BC was 47%higher and you sports guys never came close to catching your TAC , you actually leased us back your uncaught fish. We are all struggling with the lack of quota right now but give it a few years the stocks are healing well and coming back strong and we will all be sitting pretty good. And lets not forget the real reason the sports guys need more fish. Its because the majoraty of you guys are greedy , trying to build your own empire , never happy with one boat all of a sudden you need 3 boats , or 6 lodges up and down the coast. You guys are slowly but surely becoming the enemy with the eye of the public with your false acusations and lack of respect for conservation. Lets not bullshit each other now. What do you guys do with all your rockfish species when your limmited out on them before you limmit out on your halibut? There are some of you that are probably very good at what you do and understand how to avoid the rockfish , but all bs aside you guys leave rockfish driffting all the time while fishing either salmon or halibut. Justifying it with a picture of an eagle swooping down just doesn't cut it. Its the commercial sports sector that is screwing it up for everyone as they are the only sector that wants to grow at everyone elses expense , with no regard for conservation. When you are monitored 24/7 then you can expect to get somewhere with your 88/12 split but until then , you are being watched , and scrutinized by the public and the biologists , and loosing respect all over the globe.
From a proud youg British Columbian , Born and raised in the QCIslands.
PS don't try and squeeze us to hard or you may see a lot more sporties in your area with a hell of a lot more knowhow than your averge bunch , and a lot nicer boats.
PSS . Rick Grange of Massett BC is way ahead of most of you guys as he has already bought himself some quota so he can operate his commercial sports fishery. Smart move Rick as you just bumped the price of Halibut Quota up , you small timers out ther better stop complaing and jump on board or your all going to be wiped out.

Pro111,

Just because you made a crappy investment in a dead end business doesn't give you the right to come back after someone else to compensate for your ignorance.

Historically, fishermen and farmers have always portrayed themselves to the public as "hard done by". The crop is never as bountiful as last year, the catch never as big as seasons gone by. They tug on the heart strings of their communities using rhetoric such as "we provide food for the country" and the "we are the breadbasket of our nation". Farmers and fishers are supported by our Federal Government to the tune of billions of dollars annually. Tax credits, insurance, EI, you guys get it all, and on the backs of us citizens.

You mention conservation. Why the hell do we allow ANY net fisheries whatsoever now? Explain to me and others in the public space how you can have an entirely selective fishery using a purse seine or other net?

So before you go off crying about how your wife and 3 kids are forever in debt because you wanted to operate a commercial fishing operation that can't sustain itself, ask yourself this: If commercial fishermen aren't making any money, why does anyone do it? And save the altruistic rhetoric for the liberal bleeding hearts.

[Sleep Robber]

Pro111,

Just because you made a crappy investment in a dead end business doesn't give you the right to come back after someone else to compensate for your ignorance.

Historically, fishermen and farmers have always portrayed themselves to the public as "hard done by". The crop is never as bountiful as last year, the catch never as big as seasons gone by. They tug on the heart strings of their communities using rhetoric such as "we provide food for the country" and the "we are the breadbasket of our nation". Farmers and fishers are supported by our Federal Government to the tune of billions of dollars annually. Tax credits, insurance, EI, you guys get it all, and on the backs of us citizens.

You mention conservation. Why the hell do we allow ANY net fisheries whatsoever now? Explain to me and others in the public space how you can have an entirely selective fishery using a purse seine or other net?

So before you go off crying about how your wife and 3 kids are forever in debt because you wanted to operate a commercial fishing operation that can't sustain itself, ask yourself this: If commercial fishermen aren't making any money, why does anyone do it? And save the altruistic rhetoric for the liberal bleeding hearts.

Don't sweat it pro 111, Owning a halibut quota is a great investment !!

I think if a commercial fisherman was to try and explain anything towards your comments, it would go right over your head, so why bother. Do you actually think fishermen and farmers are the only working people that receive EI, Tax Credits, and Insurance ?? wow !!!

When the fishermen use purse seines for salmon, herring, pilchards, tuna, etc, is there is an abundance of by-catch ?? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! :evil: I won't even bother going into detail about other fisheries, as your not educated enough on the subject to understand the superior gear we use in todays world to help embrace conservation efforts.

Better get yourself educated on the subject of commercial fishing before you start next time. Because from what I just read, you have no idea. I've been doing it for 30 plus years now, and I'm doing better than average. Sure we go through tough times, who doesn't ? But fishing is a livelihood, not just a job. I'm sure other people in different professions feel the same way about their jobs too !!

What do you do for a living that makes you so different that you can belittle the commercial fishermen this way ??

Hey pro 111 !!, with regards to his comments about you running your fishing operation and your wife and kids etc, you know what they say,

"Opinions are like a-holes, everybody's got one. it just seems that when the a-holes were given out, some people got them put on the wrong end, and when they speak, nothing but sh!t comes out". :mrgreen:

Happy New Year Franko :wink:

[batesfarm]

The same could be said for most small business across the province, especially the last 2 years as far as revenue goes.

Lodges with the marketing dollars and the manpower to facilite lots of guests can make a sizeable dent in the pie.



Without the opportunity to fish would people pay $1000 a day for a boat ride?

Sounds like Lodges and Guides get a bit of a free ride there with their catch being considered recreational.... Facilitating the catching of the fish is a commercial venture for profitable gain, it's only recreational for the guests.

The cost of running a business is a business owners choice. You know full well before starting said business (if you've done any research) on what you're operating costs are going to be like. Boats are expensive to run, remote lodges even more so... my family knows all about that.

Carl

I sold my boat (recreational) 6 years ago and have been using that money to use the services of a lodge instead. I pay about $1500 for three days fishing, and I know the lodge owners well, they are a hard working couple in a small business who at the end of the day are not making much.

I am the one who catches the fish and brings it home. Its my licence that I paid for to the federal government. The lodge doesnt catch the fish I DO! So it doesn matter weather I fish from my boat, a buddies boat or rent a boat or now choose a lodge service instead its still "ME" same Canadian using a different way of accessing "MY" fish. Lodges dont catch fish, fishermen do.

All of the active fishermen (commercial and sport) are getting *&*) in this deal. The inflated price of quote because of the non-fishing quota owners has jacked up the price of halibut so bad that most people cant even afford to buy halibut in the grocery store. I read on a BC Government website recently, some report that said 75% of the commercial fishermans sweat goes to buy quota? Is that true?

If that is the case, thats B.S.! Same website said 95% of the commercial catch is exported to the US. Must be tougher now with their economy to get them to buy it with the quota costs being so high. Wouldnt it make more sense if there were $0.00 cost for quota and the government just gave it to active fishermen every year? The fishery would be so much more profitable.

Back to my lodge experiences based on what I learned about the price of quota. My two fifty pound hali's would mean I would have to pay an additional (100 x $5lb)= $500 on top of my $1500 lodge fee. I know Shelly cant afford to absorb that kind of cost. And there is no darn way I am going to pay directly or in the form of increased lodge fee someone for fish that Canada already owns.

On the same website it also explained that no one actually "owns" halibut. But instead business men have made private arrangements agreed to trade (contract) their anticipated future annual allocations for money with other licence holders. That halibut are only owned after they are caught. Mr Minister can change the amount that go out to the sporties, natives, commercial any time, there is no legislation or law that has given quota ownership. It all belongs to Canada.

Maybe I have this wrong but someone who bought "quota" really bought the anticipation of a future years catch from another licence holder. The government of Canada never gave it away in the first place. Is that accurate?

Happy New Year everyone and wish a good fishing year to all!

[Keta1969]

Lodges make money by offering the opportunity to catch fish .They are commercial operations .They employ guides and knowledge about where to go and how to do this.They catch a large share of the halibut allocation.Look at what happened this year,DFO allowed the sports catch to go over limit until the lodges seasons were over and then closed the fishery.Who got screwed here, the resident angler that might have wanted to fish this fall for halibut.From my understanding this overage must come off the top of next years allocation.
I sat for some time on a local SFAB board and witnessed first hand how these lodges do not want to be accountable to anyone.I'm tired of been used by the SFAB and their lodge bias as an arguement for increased access to a finite resource.There is ample allocation for resident anglers.Resident anglers need to speak out!
I have friends on both sides of this issue,my son used to guide I know guides who work the west coast, and I know commercial fishermen involved in the fishery.
Whenever there is an issue like this the SFAB always try to incite the resident angler to further the lodges buisness.I'm tired of it, we're caught between two commercial interests and we are the ones getting screwed.Until the lodges come up with a plan to show how they will cap and report their catch of halibut leave me out of it.I'm not one of the 100,000 who will do their bidding or fight their fight for their financial gain at my expense.

[Johnnybear]

I'm all for lodges recording (my understanding is some of themalready do) there catches. I am also all for recreational anglers reporting their catches of ALL species. IMHO it is little to ask for for the privelege to fish this great Province of ours and the great fishing that is to be had here.

Maybe with everyone Commercial, Sports, and FN reporting absolutely everything harvested (pipe dream but worth thinking about) the DFO (which I think should be dismantled and reorganized) can come up with some logical solutions from some accurate data.

[RustyRipper]

I sold my boat (recreational) 6 years ago and have been using that money to use the services of a lodge instead. I pay about $1500 for three days fishing, and I know the lodge owners well, they are a hard working couple in a small business who at the end of the day are not making much.

I am the one who catches the fish and brings it home. Its my licence that I paid for to the federal government. The lodge doesnt catch the fish I DO! So it doesn matter weather I fish from my boat, a buddies boat or rent a boat or now choose a lodge service instead its still "ME" same Canadian using a different way of accessing "MY" fish. Lodges dont catch fish, fishermen do.

All of the active fishermen (commercial and sport) are getting *&*) in this deal. The inflated price of quote because of the non-fishing quota owners has jacked up the price of halibut so bad that most people cant even afford to buy halibut in the grocery store. I read on a BC Government website recently, some report that said 75% of the commercial fishermans sweat goes to buy quota? Is that true?

If that is the case, thats B.S.! Same website said 95% of the commercial catch is exported to the US. Must be tougher now with their economy to get them to buy it with the quota costs being so high. Wouldnt it make more sense if there were $0.00 cost for quota and the government just gave it to active fishermen every year? The fishery would be so much more profitable.

Back to my lodge experiences based on what I learned about the price of quota. My two fifty pound hali's would mean I would have to pay an additional (100 x $5lb)= $500 on top of my $1500 lodge fee. I know Shelly cant afford to absorb that kind of cost. And there is no darn way I am going to pay directly or in the form of increased lodge fee someone for fish that Canada already owns.

On the same website it also explained that no one actually "owns" halibut. But instead business men have made private arrangements agreed to trade (contract) their anticipated future annual allocations for money with other licence holders. That halibut are only owned after they are caught. Mr Minister can change the amount that go out to the sporties, natives, commercial any time, there is no legislation or law that has given quota ownership. It all belongs to Canada.

I think you have misunderstood the concern with lodges. The concern is not so much with these mom and pop lodges that you describe where you charter out a boat and catch your own fish as you say. The concern is the multi-million dollar lodges that are spread out along our coast and concentrated in some specific areas. I guess you have never been to sonora island or to rivers inlet or hell langara island have you been there? these massive lodges are huge money makers and take a massive chunk of the recreational halibut tac. Most of these lodges are owned by big companies and in many cases american companies. Most of their clients are also americans. and do you think these guys catch their own fish like you? I think not. thats why they employ so many guides in these lodges. They have found a loop hole in the system being that they are still considered recreational even though its one of the biggest commercial industries on this coast. You think these rich americans are coming up here to catch a halibut to feed their family? take your head out of your ass and open your eyes. these guys just want a big fish to show their buddies when they get home. A lot of the halibut gets left behind with lodge staff or given away. So the fact is we are just sharing our resource a little too much with our neighbors, its become about money more than sustinance or even sport. Thats the problem with the lodges not mom and pop. You could make the same point in the commercial sector, there are a great number of commercial fishermen who started out and/or still are a mom and pop operation. A lot of them are a family business who catch enough to make a living and a lifestyle. However in contrast you could compare them to the multi-million dollar 100+ foot steel super draggers that are owned by huge companies with expensive lawyers that will make the industry work for them at any cost. Just the same as the lodges. Fighting amongst ourselves on here is juvinile and futile. I Have been a commercial fisherman since I was born and grew up on a mom and pop boat but I'm also a recreational fisherman so I can see it from both sides of the fence. We're all in this together and instead of fighting against each other we should be working together, its in all of our best interests. You think any of those fancy lodges spend any time on here squabbling? no because they already have it figured out and they're laughing while we are paying the penalties.

[IronNoggin]

...Who got screwed here, the resident angler that might have wanted to fish this fall for halibut...

You might be interested to know that the closure directly effected many guides and several lodge operations. Case in point: I know of one individual that had to cancel 8 back to back bookings (owner/operator guide) due to the closure at a great loss (returned deposits and lost income). It certainly wasn't just the resident anglers who took the hit.


I sat for some time on a local SFAB board and witnessed first hand how these lodges do not want to be accountable to anyone.

As I previously noted, a great many of the lodges have entered into a precise catch monitoring program. The information thus generated is far and beyond anything resident anglers provide (basically nada). That program is growing, and very much does make those operations "accountable".


I'm not one of the 100,000 who will do their bidding or fight their fight for their financial gain at my expense.

And that makes YOU very much a part of the problem. It is fine in your mind's eye to whine away on an internet forum, but when it comes down to REAL action, you scurry away.

Like it or not we are all currently lumped as Recreational Anglers. Fighting about who takes more of what is simply not the answer.
Currently we Canadian's get 12% of the annual Halibut TAC, the Commercial Sector gets 88%. DFO created this the problem via their unilateral decision to divide the quota as they have, and GIVE AWAY 88% of that access for FREE. As a Canadian and as an angler this seems more than wrong to me.

Resident anglers, guides, and lodges - we are one group that being the Recreational Sector. Taking shots and pointing fingers at who amongst us takes what & where doesn't change anything, but definitely divides the group. Such infighting and internal divisiveness is EXACTLY what DFO counts on (and often intentionally creates). Divided we FALL. :cry:

Those that choose to enter into the finger-pointing game, further the divisiveness and refuse to contribute anything positive are amongst the single greatest weapons working against us. Should you choose to continue with this stance, do not even think about whining here or anywhere else when the fishery is denied. After all, you, personally are directly helping create that wort-case scenario.

This is just the first skirmish Folks. If we don't carry this halibut quota battle for equitable access, prawns and crabs are likely next. Just think, you might soon be limited to a rather scant number of prawns or crabs per year. Simply so DFO can give it away to Commercial interests. And on it goes...

This fight is not simply over halibut access. Far more reaching actually. This "battle" is directly regarding Right To Access. Either Get Involved or risk losing that. The time to bury our differences and form a United Front is upon us Gentz. Togther we may yet prevail. Divided we will certainly fall...

Nog

[RustyRipper]

Like it or not we are all currently lumped as Recreational Anglers. Fighting about who takes more of what is simply not the answer.
Currently we Canadian's get 12% of the annual Halibut TAC, the Commercial Sector gets 88%. DFO created this the problem via their unilateral decision to divide the quota as they have, and GIVE AWAY 88% of that access for FREE. As a Canadian and as an angler this seems more than wrong to me.



IronNoggin you make some very good points and you seem to be pretty level headed but you are starting to sound a bit like a broken record. I think you have stated the alocations enough. but dont forget that the 12% to the recreational fleet was also a "gift" as you call it. you don't think people profit off that 12%? probably comparable to the 88% I bet. obviously it was a decision that has already been made and during a time when there was hardly a fraction of the amount of recreational anglers there are now in BC. the problem is that there are so many people coming from all over the world (not just the states) who all want a piece of that 12%. so the little guy who lives here gets screwed. Who is to blame for that? well partly the major lodges who all advertise abroad to come over and check out our great fishing! perhaps if they bought their own quota they could have all the tourists they want and not effect residents. Either way I think there is a solution but changing the allocation isn't it. changing how we fish it or who fishes it maybe. but something has to be done.

[Edward Teach]

There's a simple solution: Everybody who is in it for a buck should have to buy some sort of commercial license/quota. Then once the allocation of licenses and quota is done there are no more opportunities to enter the business unless you buy someone else out.

[Eagleeyes]

Is there really a clear solution to this problem? DFO can make reports, change limits, close seasons, reduce TAC, but in the end who will get the blame for a collapsing fishery?
It all started when a price was put on that halibuts head!!!!

[batesfarm]

There's a simple solution: Everybody who is in it for a buck should have to buy some sort of commercial license/quota. Then once the allocation of licenses and quota is done there are no more opportunities to enter the business unless you buy someone else out.

I agree with Iron Noggin, lodges are not the problem. And fighting resident vs non resident for the measly 12% is a red herring. Looked again at the BC gov website with all the statistics and they dont agree with a few of the assertions in this blog. 80% of the fishery in the sport fishery is not guided. Then it goes on to show that 65% of those who are guided are Canadian. So foolish to point to this little % of the 12% as the solution.

The commercial catch is 95% exported, going to the US so the argument for "food for Canadian stores" or doesnt carry any weight when you look at the stats.

The problem is the original gift of allocation to the "chosen few". Maybe the gift...should be one that just keeps on giving. Not selling. No one who is fishing Native, Commercial or Sport should buy or lease quota. Just share the available Fish. And if you dont fish "USE IT OR LOOSE IT!".

There would be enough for everyone, no?

After re reading this entire thread again, am starting to wonder if the commercial people who own quota are simply pushing for lodges to buy quota to pump up the over inflated values of the "GIFT" that they currently are enjoying selling at inflated prices.

Is the quota market a regulated market place? What agency regulates it? Anyone know how that all works?

[fishharvester]

Batesfarm;

78% of the commercial quota in BC has been bought and sold since inception. The free gift was gone years ago. Today the only free gift is the 70-80% of the 12% that the lodges and charter guys are using to create a different commercial fishery on the backs of the average rec fisherman.

Other than that I am in full agreement with the "use it or loose it part." One slight problem is that DFO has now moved to "Integrated Harvesting" through the CIC process. That means that every commercial groundfish boat on the coast that enounters halibut must lease any fish they kill, or cover any mortality associated with that fish if released. So it is not just trying to take halibut from the 150 active halibut vessels and crews that participated this season, it is trying to take it from the entire groundfish fleet that requires access to halibut so that they are not discarding any fish.

[IronNoggin]

IronNoggin you make some very good points and you seem to be pretty level headed but you are starting to sound a bit like a broken record... you don't think people profit off that 12%? probably comparable to the 88% I bet...

Sorry about the "broken record" effect. Just seems to me that a few simply don't get it regardless of how often it is pointed out to them. (You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink... no matter how long you hold his head under...)

Of course some profit off the 12%. No where even close to those that do with the 88%. And that is simply not the point btw.


The problem is that there are so many people coming from all over the world (not just the states) who all want a piece of that 12%. so the little guy who lives here gets screwed. Who is to blame for that? well partly the major lodges who all advertise abroad to come over and check out our great fishing!

The greater problem with US anglers is not those who engage guides or lodges. It is much more so related to the many that depart from US ports of origin (ie: Neah Bay), travel to Canadian waters and aggressivley fish our quota. This happens at an alarming rate, and in fact represented nearly a quarter of the sport halibut landed coast-wide but two years ago. The imposition of regulations mandating Canadian Licenses be purchased on Canadian soil (No access to Internet license functions if targeting halibut) which was the government's answer to this issue barely made any difference whatsoever. The counts were damn close yet again this year.

As noted below: 80% of the fishery in the sport fishery is not guided. 80%. Yes the guides and lodges will take a little more than the average Joe out there, they are professionals at the game, and that is reflected in success rates. In the area I fish (off Ukee) on the halibut grounds any given good weather day, there will be perhaps a dozen charter rigs, surrounded by up to eighty private rigs working the same fishery. Conditions may be different as one wanders northwards (access issues) but from the North tip of the Island south, the number of private rigs on the water greatly out-number the charter rigs. Really.


...perhaps if they bought their own quota they could have all the tourists they want and not effect residents.

Perhaps. And that may well be a matter for consideration down the road. For the moment, it is not on the table. There will be many regulatory considerations to allow this, yet another quagmire with The Dino running the show...


Either way I think there is a solution but changing the allocation isn't it. changing how we fish it or who fishes it maybe. but something has to be done.

Yes, something must be done. Status Quo ain't working. A fairer, more equitable distribution of harvest is, as you state, not your idea of how to proceed. On that I guess we'll simply have to agree to disagree. I do not stand alone in this belief.


78% of the commercial quota in BC has been bought and sold since inception. The free gift was gone years ago.

Very True. The once Common Property Resource was immediately turned into a Privately Traded Commodity. As with any commodity with limited access, prices sky-rocketed and continue to do so today. Certainly makes a LOT of coin for those who were gifted access to the lion's share of the resource, specifically those who chose to become "Brokers" rather than fishermen.


Today the only free gift is the 70-80% of the 12% that the lodges and charter guys are using to create a different commercial fishery on the backs of the average rec fisherman.

Nice try. First, do a little homework. The lodge and charter guide catch represents FAR less than "70-80%" of the overall recreational harvest. Realistic numbers center around 30%. Easy to find the correct information if one wants to. Also easy to toss out figures of your own imagination to keep the strife and bickering amongst the Recreational Sector alive and festering.


Other than that I am in full agreement with the "use it or loose it part."

Happy to hear another from the "other side" concurring with that thought. You likely know you are not nearly alone amongst your sector with the same mindset.

You do make a good point regarding the "Integrated Harvest" initiative. That I believe was a great step forward in that boats which once were forced to discard by-catch now can keep that catch and sell it. Alleviates a great deal of concern regarding wastage and the perception thereof.

A thought for you here: If we can agree that the quota should be based on a Use It Or Lose It mechanism, will not a great deal of the 88% soon be freed to be applied elsewhere? Eliminating the absentee quota holders (who are actually little more than brokers at this point) would have the result of near 3/4 of the quota becoming non-active. That 3/4 could then be spread around amongst those that actually do work the various fisheries (increased access to working owners, a pool established for the groundfish fleet to work with) as well as resulting in an increase to the recreational sector's access. Makes sense to me, but perhaps that is the reason it won't work?


Is the quota market a regulated market place? What agency regulates it? Anyone know how that all works?

No, it is not a "regulated market place". The system is quite simply based upon the terms of supply and demand. Those who have the supply will demand whatever they feel the market will support. Those that wish access either buy at that price or forgo the fishery. And that my friend, has made an awful lot of "Armchair Skippers" very VERY wealthy.

Of course I don't have all the answers, I freely admit that. But it does seem to me that a handful of absentee Fat Cats getting rich off OUR resource and the backs of honest hardworking fishermen, while continuously denying there are any related problems and snickering each time the recreational sector gets shut down is Wrong. And that I also happen to think is something which is well worth fighting over...

Cheers,
Nog

[Piperdown]

Hey Nog don't forget about the Americans who come up here, set up shop and quide illegally. New friends (clients ) every other day. Adds up to quite a bit over the season!

[IronNoggin]

Hey Nog don't forget about the Americans who come up here, set up shop and quide illegally. New friends (clients ) every other day. Adds up to quite a bit over the season!

Yes it does add up. That is an Enforcement Issue, one which unfortunately does not garner sufficient attention IMHO.

Have mixed feelings about US anglers. If any of us Canadians take our own rig across the line to fish the chuck, we can ONLY do so if we hire an American guide to accompany us. Not really fair methinks, especially when we basically welcome them to our waters with open arms. Different issue, different day...

Cheers,
Nog

[fishharvester]

Nice try. First, do a little homework. The lodge and charter guide catch represents FAR less than "70-80%" of the overall recreational harvest. Realistic numbers center around 30%. Easy to find the correct information if one wants to. Also easy to toss out figures of your own imagination to keep the strife and bickering amongst the Recreational Sector alive and festering.

sorry Nog but the the last head of groundfish (Gary Logan) spoke at our agm before he retired and put out the number of 65% taken by the lodge and charter sector. That was reaffirmed by the province outside the last process where the province felt it was closer to 80% being caught by the lodges.

Either way with the 45% reduction in our TAC and the unregulated and unmonitored growth in the rec fishery there just is not enough fish to go around at the levels we once saw.

That being said we all need to take a cut until this turns around.

[dryflyguy57]

Ironnoggin , Didn't realize there was already strife and bickering going on in the recreational sector . Who are the sides and what is the bickering about ? Where do you get the 30 % figure for the lodge stats. ? I do agree with you that the leasing of quota is not right , use it or lose it . Also doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it is not right that an American can come up here unguided or leave from Neah Bay and deplete our recreational quota . Surprised the Sport fishing Institute is not actively trying to stop this .Surely DFO can stop this with the stroke of a pen . I have said numerous times that I think the Commercial Sport sector is as commercial as a forty foot longliner and i will not sway from that belief . You can lead me to water , hold my head under but I will not take a god damn drink .

[gitnadoix]

The rec main concern is the fishery is closed for part of the year......take the commercial rec (lodges and Charter) out of the true recreational sector make them buy a commercial quota, and return the 30% or 80 % what ever it is that they have been taken back to the sport fishers and bingo a year round access to the sport fleet.

Funny how these commercial sport types believe that their right to make a living off of a Canadian renewable resource should be free to them and not to the commecial fishermen. ?????????

[Tripitaka]

I've read this thread a couple of times now and considered the debates going on, mostly for my own education. As a non-resident, I'm powerless to get involved to any meaningful degree but I've considered whether to post my thoughts for a while.

Seems to me that folks are getting passionate and involved with what the end result should be when the real problem lies much earlier than that. The first hurdle is to get the people who can change it to agree to seriously listen to the cases for change. That will require findinging the WIIFM (Whats In It For Me) factor that will cause them to change the current status quo. This individual will be government and the decision will be masked behind politics but the brutal truth is that unless the WIIFM is found for that individual, they ain't going to change squat because you, Mr Recreational Angler, doesn't mean a damn to them.

This makes the conversations about Americans, lodges and guides interesting but very premature. Of course, such discussions must take place but now isn't really the time. You don't need a solution if the person who makes the change doesn't recognise there is a problem.

I think the ONLY question that matters right now is how to articulate to the Fisheries Minister that there is a problem in a way that they will understand, recognise and agree with. First step would be unity and to get that, you need some wide media coverage presenting a case for change that will unite the angling community. Again, a case for change, not a solution to the problem. That will hopefully bring enough folks together to arrange some voter pressure - the only thing that politicians really pay attention to.

It can be easily done by the media - just check out the UK politicians expenses scandal last year; damn near brought down the government and all because one national newspaper took an interest.

[IronNoggin]

sorry Nog but the the last head of groundfish (Gary Logan) spoke at our agm before he retired and put out the number of 65% taken by the lodge and charter sector. That was reaffirmed by the province outside the last process where the province felt it was closer to 80% being caught by the lodges.

The "guesstimates" on the overall recreational harvest are sketchy to say the least - I did post earlier regarding the current methods employed and the complete unreliability thereof. Some guides and many lodges have entered into a catch monitoring system with DFO that is FAR more reliable than anything previously employed, and that program is growing. Current estimates regarding charter/lodge catchs range from a low of 30% to a high of 65% (from DFO's calculations). No-one really knows, and no-one ever will until such time as we emplace an accurate, reliable system of catch monitoring, something that is being worked on right now - spearheaded by of all people the guides and lodges. We can both trot out numbers, no slur upon Gary, but as noted, at this point it is very much anyone's guess. This particular issue (overall catch numbers and the composition of that) is extremely important, and one that, as noted, is the focus of much attention.


Either way with the 45% reduction in our TAC and the unregulated and unmonitored growth in the rec fishery there just is not enough fish to go around at the levels we once saw.

That being said we all need to take a cut until this turns around.

The population in our area (2B) has slid some, however nowhere near to the point of becoming a "Conservation Concern". And while I tend to agree we must err on the side of caution, methinks you and I both understand it isn't the Recreational Sector with their paltry 12% that have any significant impact on the population as a whole.


Ironnoggin , Didn't realize there was already strife and bickering going on in the recreational sector.

Yes, this has almost always been the case - fly vs gear, bait vs artificial, average angler vs guides, and on it goes. These instances are far too common, perhaps the most common ground amongst the recreational users there is. And of course something MOE and DFO are WELL aware of, and use to their direct advantage whenever they can - to the point of actually encouraging both internal bickering as well as inter-sectoral conflicts. One simply has to peruse this thread to see just how effective a weapon this tactic is. Methinks it is very much in our better interest to get over our differences and form a united front once and for all. Very similar to the many suggestions on this site that we, as hunters, band together and forgo our differences for the betterment of our sport as a whole. Unfortunate that many simply cannot wrap their minds around this simple fact.


Also doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it is not right that an American can come up here unguided or leave from Neah Bay and deplete our recreational quota . Surprised the Sport fishing Institute is not actively trying to stop this .Surely DFO can stop this with the stroke of a pen.

This is a matter of real concern for the SFI. Yes, DFO can change the situation with a simple stroke of the pen. For political reasons they have thus far refused to consider doing so.


I have said numerous times that I think the Commercial Sport sector is as commercial as a forty foot longliner and i will not sway from that belief . You can lead me to water , hold my head under but I will not take a god damn drink .

You of course are entitled to your personal beliefs. I disagree. The champions of the recreational anglers that come from the "average angler" pool are far and few between. The Bill Otways of the world do exist (DAMN I MISS that Man!!) however are grossly outnumbered by those from the guide pool that are willing to donate time, energy and funding to fight for all of our causes. Unfortunately I believe that should we splinter them off into a completely separate Sector, we will lose the extremely valuable input they currently provide. And as much as I dislike saying this, the apathy, acrimony and bickering amongst those who would be left likely precludes anything even close arising to replace them in the near future. So, you can indeed chose not to drink as it were. Just hope you don't drown the rest of us while doing so...


The rec main concern is the fishery is closed for part of the year......take the commercial rec (lodges and Charter) out of the true recreational sector make them buy a commercial quota, and return the 30% or 80 % what ever it is that they have been taken back to the sport fishers and bingo a year round access to the sport fleet.

In a perfect world that might make sense. The current situation does not allow for any such mechanisms. Have you ever tried to work with DFO towards any new initiative? One baby step at a time, each demanding a hell of a pile of effort, and each subject to the daily whims of those who rule from Kent Street. Given the current state of both the fisheries and thier "management" the most logical step is for us to work togther towards an equitable sharing of the resource. Perhaps down the road we can tackle the issue you have outlined. One battle at a time - as many through history have discovered, it is usually disastrous to open up more than one front in any given campaign.

Interesting and insightful post Tripitaka. Especially so since it comes from one well removed from the situation at hand. I very much agree with much of what you suggest, especially regarding Unity and capturing the relevant government officials' attention. The current campaign and series of meetings are designed to explicitly focus on the latter. Capturing the attention of the Fisheries Minister has always been an uphill battle. However focusing efforts towards MLA's, Town Councils and more does have the effect of driving the message right to her doorstep. She and her office are well aware of the discontent, and are slowly waking to the magnitude of numbers this particular issue directly effects. There is a LOT more in the works on this one, and we cling to the hope that we will be sufficiently strong enough to carry the day.

The Unity issue is a tougher nut to crack actually. Far too many are content to throw stones from the sidelines, furthering the divisiveness amongst our sector. Sad in that were they able to focus on the larger more immediate issues, and were we all able to forget our differences for a spell and band together, we could make much stronger inroads towards a resolution of the situation so many hold dear to their hearts.

There was an excellent turn-out at the Courtney/Comox meeting with well over a hundred concerned citizens in attendance. It was a very informative gathering, and the presentations from both organizers and attendees were first rate. Most present noted they will soon be firing off those all important letters if they haven't already.

More meetings are scheduled for the Island, all start at 7:00pm:
Ucluelet: January 6th 7pm Ucluelet Sea Plane Base Hall
Victoria: Jan 12th Sheraton 4 Points Victoria – West Shore Ballroom
Nanaimo: Jan 18th Beban Park Auditorium
Campbell River: Jan 19th Marine Heritage Centre 621 N Island Highway
http://www.sfibc.com/?page_id=204

Note that the final meeting is to be held in Campbell River, the home riding of John Duncan, one of the chief engineers of the fiasco we live under today. Just this morning a movement amongst those working for this cause was initiated to get as many as possible to that meeting to drive the point home to this man: http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/showthread.php?14647-Caravan-to-campbell-river
Methinks Mr. Duncan should wake up and smell the coffee. The situation he directly created is spinning out of control. With a margin of less than 2,400 votes in the last election, should he chose not to do so, he is likely enjoying his last moments as an MLA. Any that would like to get in on this one, feel free to either post on the relevant thread noted above, or shoot me a PM. I am sure something can be arranged to accommodate.

If this issue is of concern to you, I strongly suggest you attend these meetings. This holds especially true for those with concerns regarding the current structure of our Recreational Sector as a whole - there will Presenters that are more informed and enlightened on that subject, as well as the issue on hand, than I ever will be. Accordingly they will be able to answer your queries much better than I can here.

The letter campaign also continues, and for those concerned in this regard, I do suggest firing off a letter or two to the relevant government officials. The more of us that get behind this initiative, the better our odds of capturing the attention of those with the ability to change the current undesirable situation.

Cheers,
Nog

[fowl language]

having been on both sides of the fence i shall remain neutral on all debates but don,t you fellas think it would be wise to attack the gov,t as they are presently buying quota for the native community..so i ask you why doesn,t the sports sector ask the gov,t to buy quota for our sector.bcwf region 1 has the data to prove this. as i personnally sent the data to the president there.maybe this should be the topic of discussion at these meetings istead of in fighting.i,m sure if you were to put their feet to the fire i,d bet they would cough up some dough..just me thoughts...fowl

[fishharvester]

having been on both sides of the fence i shall remain neutral on all debates but don,t you fellas think it would be wise to attack the gov,t as they are presently buying quota for the native community..so i ask you why doesn,t the sports sector ask the gov,t to buy quota for our sector.bcwf region 1 has the data to prove this. as i personnally sent the data to the president there.maybe this should be the topic of discussion at these meetings istead of in fighting.i,m sure if you were to put their feet to the fire i,d bet they would cough up some dough..just me thoughts...fowl

That was put forward during the Gordon Process. Gov't rejected the idea because treasury board felt it was not legal to use government funds to buy from one commercial group to facilitate another commercial group.


The population in our area (2B) has slid some, however nowhegre near to the point of becoming a "Conservation Concern". And while I tend to agree we must err on the side of caution, methinks you and I both understand it isn't the Recreational Sector with their paltry 12% that have any significant impact on the population as a whole.

Why does it have to become a conservation concern before their is action?? So far the rec sector is over close to what 500,000lbs including this year.. It is a conservation concern.

One other question.. How are our southcoast rivers doing for springs with the amount of effort in the area, the lings, the rockfish, congradulations we have 300,000 sports anglers on the coast and we are running our of fish.

[fowl language]

fish harvester, could you tell me why the gov,t id buying qouta for the natives as individuals or bands.what,s the difference? we are individual sports fisherman. i don,t get it. they claim to have no money but continue to buy up qouta,s for the natives.should this not be a level playing field....fowl

[fishharvester]

fish harvester, could you tell me why the gov,t id buying qouta for the natives as individuals or bands.what,s the difference? we are individual sports fisherman. i don,t get it. they claim to have no money but continue to buy up qouta,s for the natives.should this not be a level playing field....fowl
Wish I had the answer to that. Like I said the message we received back from dfo is that treasury board felt it was illegal to use taxpayers money to buy form one business to give to another. that is how it was explained to us at the end of the gordon process and at least once during the stanier process with dfo legal present. Also the money thye are using to buy fish for the natives PICFI, has already been approved by the treasury board. I think they have till 2012 to spend it all.

[dryflyguy57]

Fish harvester , I believe the only licence NOT being purchased by the Native Buy back are trawl and shrimp ? Everything else is on the table . On another note i find it hard to believe the commercial lodges are not 100% compliant in getting a proper poundage count on what they are removing from the resource . There is no will by DFO to have a proper count as we would not have this problem years after it has been brought up at the IPHC meetings . It would be in every sectors interest to be accountable . I do believe it leaves the door open for the American interests to lobby the IPHC for decreased TAC's in Area 2B . Like it or not they take political lobbyist to levels we in Canada can't comprehend .

[IronNoggin]

... don,t you fellas think it would be wise to attack the gov,t as they are presently buying quota for the native community..so i ask you why doesn,t the sports sector ask the gov,t to buy quota for our sector ...i,m sure if you were to put their feet to the fire i,d bet they would cough up some dough..

When non-FN's carry the same clout politically as FN's then maybe. Unfortunately that has the same chance of becoming reality as the proverbial "icicle in hell".


Why does it have to become a conservation concern before their is action?? So far the rec sector is over close to what 500,000lbs including this year.. It is a conservation concern.

First, find out just what the "guesstimate" of the recreational sector's overage really was.
Second, explain the amount of tonnage the commercial fleet left in the water due to economic (pricing) concerns, say this and the previous three years. And while you are at it, the "carry-over" mechanism that allows that to subsequently be harvested the next.
Third, please enlighten as to the tonnage and age thereof of commercial product in storage at this point in time.

As per IPHC's own listings, biomass has INCREASED from 2008 at 227 million pounds to 275 million in 2009 to 334 million pounds 2010 - in fact, 1985 was 100m pounds...biomass has more than tripled since then. In light of the figures supplied directly by the Commission, please explain your statement regarding Conservation Concerns.


On another note i find it hard to believe the commercial lodges are not 100% compliant in getting a proper poundage count on what they are removing from the resource . There is no will by DFO to have a proper count as we would not have this problem years after it has been brought up at the IPHC meetings . It would be in every sectors interest to be accountable . I do believe it leaves the door open for the American interests to lobby the IPHC for decreased TAC's in Area 2B . Like it or not they take political lobbyist to levels we in Canada can't comprehend .

The initiative to come up with an accurate accounting system for the lodges was initiated by the lodges themselves. DFO bought into it, albeit grudgingly. You are absolutely correct in that there is no drive amongst DFO to accurately assess the recreational harvest. They greatly prefer to employ the current proven unreliable system of "guesstimating" as that allows them complete and utter control, regardless of what the facts may be. And you are indeed bang-on with this leaving us open for American imposed (tactical) reductions here, and their proven capability to do just that.

Wanted to come on and simply bump the note that the Ucluelet Meeting will occur this evening. So, I'll leave it at that, and a quote from a good Buddy:

Overfishing by the rec sector based on an undemocratic division of the resource and completely unreliable information on recreational catch data is Not my kind of Canada!!!

aYup! http://bestsmileys.com/cool/3.gif

Cheers,
Nog

[fishharvester]

First, find out just what the "guesstimate" of the recreational sector's overage really was.
that's one of the biggest problems, the rec sector is unwilling to accuratly keep track of their catch. If the commercial sector is expected to pay 100% monitoring costs then why should the lodge and charter fleet not buck up.


Second, explain the amount of tonnage the commercial fleet left in the water due to economic (pricing) concerns, say this and the previous three years. And while you are at it, the "carry-over" mechanism that allows that to subsequently be harvested the next. yes, every year to date there is a carryover of less than 10% in the commercial fishery. there is no fish left in the water after this year. the iphc made it so 10% of one year may be carried over to the next. It is not accumlative and after this year the amount of fish left in the water is 34,000lbs of 6.4mill. The rec sector is over by 100k, so Canada is now over by 66k this year


Third, please enlighten as to the tonnage and age thereof of commercial product in storage at this point in time.The only fish in storage this year is what is being held to keep restaurants going through the winter.. again their is no surplus. With the yanks schedualed to loose another 9mill there will be a huge shortfall in 2011.


IPHC's own listings, biomass has INCREASED from 2008 at 227 million pounds to 275 million in 2009 to 334 million pounds 2010 - in fact, 1985 was 100m pounds...biomass has more than tripled since then. In light of the figures supplied directly by the Commission, please explain your statement regarding Conservation Concerns. great the biomass has increased(possibly, but that sure does not explain the 45% reduction in coatwide quotas or the huge decrease in Alaska again this year) maybe check and see how the "exploitable" biomass is doing.

[batesfarm]

that's one of the biggest problems, the rec sector is unwilling to accuratly keep track of their catch. If the commercial sector is expected to pay 100% monitoring costs then why should the lodge and charter fleet not buck up.

From my lodge experience your information of unwillingness to keep track is not across the board. The two different lodges I went to in the last two years, one at Nootka and the other at Langara both measured the length all of my halibut and it was recorded in a book. One of the lodges also had an electronic system that was supposedly feeding info to dfo via their satellite internet. They also weighed every one of my salmon and recorded it with my fishing license number. The head of one of my hatchery fish was also kept for DFO. Even my sea bass (which is my favorite to eat) were written down.

The book at the Nootka lodge had a DFO logo on it.

All of my salmon were recorded on my license as soon as they were in the boat. (our guides were relentless at both lodges in making sure). We were also queried back at the dock on how many Coho were released and that went into the same DFO book as the halibut information.

Both lodges (one very small one, and one big one) gave us a serious talk at the welcome party about respecting the resource, limits, conservation and how important catch data was. Five years ago I didn't get that drill, but the tune has sure changed in recent years. It's the right thing to do and no one in any of the groups I was with complained about that approach.

You may want to re consider some of your comments because in my (limited) experiences what your proclaiming is unfounded so far. Or maybe years ago yes, what your saying was true. But my sense is that tracking catch seems like an important element to them today.

[batesfarm]

The rec main concern is the fishery is closed for part of the year......take the commercial rec (lodges and Charter) out of the true recreational sector make them buy a commercial quota, and return the 30% or 80 % what ever it is that they have been taken back to the sport fishers and bingo a year round access to the sport fleet.

Funny how these commercial sport types believe that their right to make a living off of a Canadian renewable resource should be free to them and not to the commecial fishermen. ?????????

It should be free to everyone! No one should own it or have the right to sell it.
Share it, Fish it, or Loose it!

That sounds more Canadian to me.

[dryflyguy57]

batesfarm , that is a big assumption that there is an accurate count going on . I think most on here would agree there is work to do in that respect. Good to hear the lodges you went to are keeping a count . Not to confident that DFO is pulling it all together and properly recording the numbers . They still claim to use a survey for numbers .

[fishharvester]

batesfarm;
i to have been at langara. I must admit the fish we caught were not big but when we asked if they were recorded the workers told us they were to small to count(not sure if really want to post this lol).
I agree some lodges and guides do a great job of submitting the data but there is still a huge hole in the numbers. and since fisheries management hinges on those numbers it is not acceptable.

[IronNoggin]

that's one of the biggest problems, the rec sector is unwilling to accuratly keep track of their catch. If the commercial sector is expected to pay 100% monitoring costs then why should the lodge and charter fleet not buck up.

As I noted above and bates also does in the following post, most lodges and many guides are accurately tracking their numbers (and sizes). Currently the "average angler" catch is simply a guess, based on limited (< 4% coverage) creel census projects and fly-over boat counts. DFO is more than happy with that arrangement, which none of us outside of that confusing Ministry feel is effective whatsoever. The issue of accurately assessing recreational harvest figures is relatively simple: require guides/lodges to enter into the program that has developed (most are more than willing) and require the balance of the rest of us to tag halibut (with a maximum annual number associated) and submit that information annually. DFO spouts a whole pile of BS reasons they can not and will not entertain such advances. Thus the whole issue of accountability sits firmly within DFO's confines. We are trying to work on that, much like pushing a huge boulder up a mountain with this lot!


yes, every year to date there is a carryover of less than 10% in the commercial fishery. there is no fish left in the water after this year. the iphc made it so 10% of one year may be carried over to the next. It is not accumlative and after this year the amount of fish left in the water is 34,000lbs of 6.4mill. The rec sector is over by 100k, so Canada is now over by 66k this year

I do not know where you are getting your information from, but according to DFO's commercial harvest figures, there is still "quota" left swimming again this year. Also don't understand just where you are getting the overage figures for the recreational fleet from? We already understand that DFO's figures in this regard are completely out to lunch, thus I would advise caution in relying on anything they put out in this regard. Even were you to buy into their numbers, the overage does not equal what you have written.


The only fish in storage this year is what is being held to keep restaurants going through the winter.. again their is no surplus. With the yanks schedualed to loose another 9mill there will be a huge shortfall in 2011.

Just how much do the restaurants purchase through the winter? This was the same song as last year, and we both understand just how much was still in cold storage when the season commenced. And methinks you understand as well as I that dated product does nothing but drive the prices down. That said, the reduction in Alaska's catch numbers will do nothing but benefit BC commercial fishers. Certainly you must be looking forward to the associated price hikes as a consequence of this development. Perhaps not though if you are one of those who has to lease quota, as the associated price of that will climb due to the related reduction in product availability, and subsequent increase in delivered pricing...


great the biomass has increased(possibly, but that sure does not explain the 45% reduction in coatwide quotas or the huge decrease in Alaska again this year) maybe check and see how the "exploitable" biomass is doing.

First: Last month, the IPHC’s staff made a recommendation for the total allowable catch of halibut in Area 2B for the 2011 season: 7.65 million pounds, up from 7.5 million pounds in 2010. This is not the final number – it is still up to the IPHC’s commissioners and advisory bodies to adopt the official total allowable catch for the halibut fishery. It does however reflect the findings of the IPHC's science wing that there are more available here for this upcoming season.

The reductions in Alaska are a reflection of the decrease in size, both overall and at age. Given the limited footprint recreational anglers pose currently, methinks we can likely agree it isn't that sector harvesting any significant amount of larger individuals that drive this occurrence.


...Good to hear the lodges you went to are keeping a count . Not to confident that DFO is pulling it all together and properly recording the numbers. They still claim to use a survey for numbers .

Your concern is well founded. As previously noted, it is the guides and lodges themselves spearheading the move towards more accurate accounting. DFO still maintains that their proven unreliable system is the way to go. We have much work to do here to convince them otherwise it seems. Fishharvester is correct when he notes: since fisheries management hinges on those numbers it is not acceptable.

The thought of requiring lodges to retain personal quotas is problematic at many levels. Not the least of which is the following: Under current Fisheries regulation and Fisheries Act, it is illegal for anyone to purchase quota unless they have a commercial fishing license, in theory attached to a commercial boat. Once the license is legally acquired, no one may fish both recreationally and commercially at the same time. The commercial license catch must be harvested, landed and accounted for as commercial caught fish, then on a separate trip the recreational fish can be caught. That is, as I say, under current regs, which seem reasonable to me....why change them just so the resource can be completely changed into private property for the few who can afford to buy the right to fish? A whole new set of regulations would have to be drafted, debated on and gazetted were this ever to occur. We all understand just how swiftly (NOT!) The Dino moves such issues along. Be at least five years or more in the making, and creates a whole other can of worms to deal with down the road.
This divisional discussion is focused not on progress, rather on keeping the recreational sector busy with in-fighting, too busy (they hope) to focus on the real issues at hand.

The problem is NOT the commercial fishermen. The problem IS DFO and their (likely) illegal apportioning of a resource that in their own definition, belongs to all Canadians as a whole. Easy for them to say, apparently not at all real by any means, given their practises to the complete opposite...

Cheers,
Nog

[fishharvester]

I do not know where you are getting your information from, but according to DFO's commercial harvest figures, there is still "quota" left swimming again this year. Also don't understand just where you are getting the overage figures for the recreational fleet from? We already understand that DFO's figures in this regard are completely out to lunch, thus I would advise caution in relying on anything they put out in this regard. Even were you to buy into their numbers, the overage does not equal what you have written.

http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/contractordata/rptsectorcatch%20summary.pdf go to page 4 and take the total quota and subtract the ytd Catch (because all groundfish fleets in BC use/lease halibut). and that is what is remaining of commercial quota. 34k out of 6.5 mill.
The overage from the sports sector was presented by the sfab group at the courtenay rod and gun club meeting last week. And if you can't trust the SFAB and SFI reps who can you trust.:-D



Just how much do the restaurants purchase through the winter? This was the same song as last year, and we both understand just how much was still in cold storage when the season commenced. And methinks you understand as well as I that dated product does nothing but drive the prices down. That said, the reduction in Alaska's catch numbers will do nothing but benefit BC commercial fishers. Certainly you must be looking forward to the associated price hikes as a consequence of this development. Perhaps not though if you are one of those who has to lease quota, as the associated price of that will climb due to the related reduction in product availability, and subsequent increase in delivered pricing...

the prices paid at the end of the season were record high, not the move of processors with fish in the freezers. how about you phone s&m or aero and ask them what is left in the freezers for 2011. I would take an increase in overall stock abundance over falling stocks any day of the week, yes we are hopeful that the decrease in Alaska may add to our price this year, but we feel for those above us in all sectors that are schedualed to take a beating.


First: Last month, the IPHC’s staff made a recommendation for the total allowable catch of halibut in Area 2B for the 2011 season: 7.65 million pounds, up from 7.5 million pounds in 2010. This is not the final number – it is still up to the IPHC’s commissioners and advisory bodies to adopt the official total allowable catch for the halibut fishery. It does however reflect the findings of the IPHC's science wing that there are more available here for this upcoming season.

BC, washington and a portion of area 4 are schedualed for a small increase. The overal picture is down 25%.


The reductions in Alaska are a reflection of the decrease in size, both overall and at age. Given the limited footprint recreational anglers pose currently, methinks we can likely agree it isn't that sector harvesting any significant amount of larger individuals that drive this occurrence.

nope this is not true. I have been doing research in Alaska for the last 15 yrs. the fish were not there and what was there was as you stated smaller in size. You can't be serious that the recreational sector has a small footprint. The alaska sports fleet puts in as much halibut as the entire BC quota. or at least they did in 2010.


The thought of requiring lodges to retain personal quotas is problematic at many levels. Not the least of which is the following: Under current Fisheries regulation and Fisheries Act, it is illegal for anyone to purchase quota unless they have a commercial fishing license, in theory attached to a commercial boat. Once the license is legally acquired, no one may fish both recreationally and commercially at the same time. The commercial license catch must be harvested, landed and accounted for as commercial caught fish, then on a separate trip the recreational fish can be caught. That is, as I say, under current regs, which seem reasonable to me....why change them just so the resource can be completely changed into private property for the few who can afford to buy the right to fish? A whole new set of regulations would have to be drafted, debated on and gazetted were this ever to occur. We all understand just how swiftly (NOT!) The Dino moves such issues along. Be at least five years or more in the making, and creates a whole other can of worms to deal with down the road.
sorry but during the Stanier process it was presented that a scientific permit could be put in place almost immediatly. this permit could be available for anyone(charter or personal) that would like to exceed the 1 per day that we fished under last year. this would be done on a temporary basis and would give the flexibility needed to move forward. Again it was to be a free license and available to all anglers. option 2 presented at the Stanier process.



This divisional discussion is focused not on progress, rather on keeping the recreational sector busy with in-fighting, too busy (they hope) to focus on the real issues at hand.
Not exactly. The commercial sector wanted to find a solution that would last. Not another quick fix bandaid. And we truly believe that the lodge and charter sector is a commercial businesses taking fish away from the mom and pops and commercial fishermen to feather their own nests.


The problem is NOT the commercial fishermen....

Then why is the SFAB and SFI so bent on taking 8-20% of the commercial fishermans ability to earn a living away without any form of compensation?? To you it appears to be just a number. To many of these families that bought it (80%) it means there house, cars and families. And for what ... so the lodge and charter sector can increase from 1 and 1 to 2 and 3 to try and attact more clients, sorry but not acceptable.

Question : If Canada is said to be a net recipient of halibut from the NW, and the areas to the NW are taking a beating what do you think may happen here in BC over the next 5 yrs if we dont all start to work together?

bogman if you make it to victoria this year first drink is on me:mrgreen:

[Dutch]

He doesn't drink or for the last 25 years anyway,seen something new this(last) season in the Charlottes 125 lbr. alongside the boat took a picture measured it roughly and RELEASED, good on the guy .Let all those big momma lings go think I'll do the same if I ever get one of those barn doors again:wink::wink:

[batesfarm]

[FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT]


....... so bent on taking 8-20% of the commercial fishermans ability to earn a living away without any form of compensation?? To you it appears to be just a number. To many of these families that bought it (80%) it means there house, cars and families........ .:

When you indiciate that you "bought it". What did the quota holder buy? From everything I have read (googled in the last week), halibut are not property until they are landed.

In trying to learn about the history and this article kept coming up...in a report to the UN written by a Canadian Commercial Fisheries expert. In his report (ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/004/y2684e/y2684e21.pdf) to the UN he says “It is important to recognize that, in Canada, fishing privileges are granted, and fisheries resources are allocated, at the discretion of the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans. Under Section 7 of the Fisheries Act, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans has absolute discretion in the issuance of licences. Therefore, when considering rights-based fisheries management in Canada, it is should be noted that resource access is a privilege granted by the Minister, not a property right.”in a report to the UN Fisheries Council

Were Commercial Halibut fishermen involved in a crown sale or a disposal of crown assets?

Maybe I am off base here and stand to be corrected, but what I sense they bought is a Halibut business. A business with a Halibut fishing license from another business operator.

When I buy stocks, which I did. I knew full well that even though I had my "shares" there would never be certainty of their values, cash value, book value, dividends or stock splits. I invested heavily and like many other Canadians lost a substantial portion of my investments.

But I knew full well and have no one to blame.

What I don't understand is why do Halibut Quota holders feel that they should be guaranteed a lifetime of supply by the government? The government doesn't guarantee my neighbors Italian restaurant business. Doesn't guarantee my job.

Just like the quota holder who "bought" quota, most Canadians have mortgages, cars, families and take risks in our businesses and jobs. There is no government guarantee for us.

Why should Halibut Quota Holders have some other "higher" social welfare program then the rest of us Canadians?

[Sleep Robber]

From my lodge experience your information of unwillingness to keep track is not across the board. The two different lodges I went to in the last two years, one at Nootka and the other at Langara both measured the length all of my halibut and it was recorded in a book. One of the lodges also had an electronic system that was supposedly feeding info to dfo via their satellite internet. They also weighed every one of my salmon and recorded it with my fishing license number. The head of one of my hatchery fish was also kept for DFO. Even my sea bass (which is my favorite to eat) were written down.

The book at the Nootka lodge had a DFO logo on it.

All of my salmon were recorded on my license as soon as they were in the boat. (our guides were relentless at both lodges in making sure). We were also queried back at the dock on how many Coho were released and that went into the same DFO book as the halibut information.

Both lodges (one very small one, and one big one) gave us a serious talk at the welcome party about respecting the resource, limits, conservation and how important catch data was. Five years ago I didn't get that drill, but the tune has sure changed in recent years. It's the right thing to do and no one in any of the groups I was with complained about that approach.

You may want to re consider some of your comments because in my (limited) experiences what your proclaiming is unfounded so far. Or maybe years ago yes, what your saying was true. But my sense is that tracking catch seems like an important element to them today.

Although some of the lodges may be involved in recording the numbers and weights of the halibut caught by guests, they don't have to pay for on board observers and port monitors from company's such as Archipelago.

Some commercial boats have cameras that see every fish coming on board and some of the ones that don't have the mounted cameras, "MUST" have an on board observer. The commercial fishing vessels costs of these observers, is astronomically high, and always comes out of the fishermen's pocket. Then when the commercial boat is done at sea, and the on board observer is dropped off in town, and as soon as the boat starts to unload their catch, they have to pay for the port monitoring costs {just another observer from the same company}. I think the average cost per hour is $75 per hour for the commercial fishing boats. When you have a decent fishing trip and you get top town and find out the total cost of having an on board observer and port monitor is something in the 10,000 to 15,000 range, your pay checks start to diminish pretty fast.

The numbers I have given are not exact, but you get the point.

How much monies do the lodges pay for the catch, and record programs that I read about here ??

[fishharvester]

We have had to pay for the "privilege" of having access to the halibut resource. At present that privilege costs $45/lb + what we pay each year to access that privilege. Yes the minister has the power to change those percentages if she chooses. All commercial fisherman that have paid for this privilege have had that "stock" cut by 45% in the last 5 years due to lack of abundance.

The difference for us is that if we want to continue being a fisherman we have had no choice but to buy/lease these privileges. We have large investments in boats and equiptment that are not much good if you can't catch fish. I agree DFO created this problem and should have been on the ball years ago to correct it. Unfortunalty for all sectors this is not the case.

There is no guarantee for us. That is part of the reason we have leasing. Banks recognize this as a privilege and therefore will not lend money on the assets. The way around that for us is trust agreements that we pay off over time(leases). This benefits the younger guys trying to get into the fishery and also gives the guys trying to get out a bit of a tax break. At present if you have a fishing company and you sell off the assets you have to reinvest in the fishing industry or pay very large capital gains.

Again this is about taking the privilege from one business and giving it to another business with zero compensation, nothing more nothing less. Can you imagine the court cases if you took away logs from one company and gave it to another, mineral rights, oil sands, the land your hose sits on. All Canadian resources have been privatized in some way shape or form.

If you really want to go down this road then lets open the fishery for all sectors April 1, and when the fish are caught(by whatever sector) then we close the fishery(for everyone). At the same time there will be no priority access on springs as there will be no allocations and again the season opens for all and closes for all when the numbers are reached.

[IronNoggin]

http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/contractordata/rptsectorcatch%20summary.pdf

The 2.6% of commercial quota that remains in the water at this point is in fact a higher amount than the recreational sector was over this year. As it has been in the past several years in a row.

The current commercial "bycatch mortality" for Area 2B is approximately 16% of the current yield. That would be referring to “commercial” U32 bycatch, which is counted and goes against BC TAC. 16% bycatch mortality for Area 2B? Equals a LOT, especially when looking at 12% total sport TAC! Just to make this clear, "commercial" U32 bycatch mortality for Area 2B is approximately 16% yield loss - that would be commercial U32 bycatch! I How is this justifiable? Is it possible that unwanted 16% wasted yield could be added to the current 12% sport, for a total of 28% sport TAC? I am talking percentages considered "wasted yield" via IPHC actual studies.


BC, washington and a portion of area 4 are schedualed for a small increase. The overal picture is down 25%. We are talking Canada here. Area 2B (Canada) is, as noted, scheduled for an increase.


I have been doing research in Alaska for the last 15 yrs. the fish were not there and what was there was as you stated smaller in size. You can't be serious that the recreational sector has a small footprint. The alaska sports fleet puts in as much halibut as the entire BC quota.Again, we are dealing with a Canadian issue here. However since you brought this up: In 2010 Area 2B sport removal (catch) was 1.092. Want to put that in perspective? Area 4CDE “bycatch and waste” was 1.606. Just in Alaska Area 4CDE - they throw away in bycatch and waste more than DFO allows the entire Canadian sport fishery.

Alaska is another matter. Here, it is ludicrous to suggest Canadian Anglers present any significant concern to the stock regarding the removal of of the largest individuals, which in turn effects the "exploitable biomass" for all fisheries in Canadian waters. That is pretty well solely a commercial fishery effect.


During the Stanier process it was presented that a scientific permit could be put in place almost immediatly. this permit could be available for anyone(charter or personal) that would like to exceed the 1 per day that we fished under last year. option 2 presented at the Stanier process.An option which was put forward at the behest of the absentee owners. Directly designed to continue the cash flow to their already well-lined pockets.

There is no parallel between guides/lodges and commercial fishermen. The lodges and guides are facilitators. It is the client that has a license to fish. The client lands the fish and the client takes the fish home to eat. So if these facilitators should be required to buy quota, where do you draw the line? How about BC Ferries and West Jet? They bring in anglers to go fishing halibut. Maybe the car rental companies, restaurants, motels and gas stations too? 75% of the lodge clients are Canadians who love to fish but don't have a boat that enables them to do so. The guides and lodges provide that service. They are not commercial fishing outfits, despite your continuous comments to the contrary..

The SFI in conjunction with the BCWF and SFAB have publicly stated they will not support such an initiative. The reason stated is that were we to do so, it would further the PRIVATIZATION of this Common Property Resource, in effect buying into DFO's ill-founded notion that this resource is simply a Commodity, to be purchased and traded by those who have the economic means to do so (despite their insistence, contrary to their actions, that the resource belongs to all Canadian Citizens). This is a very dangerous path that could well impact a great many fisheries beyond halibut. Methinks none of us want to see our fisheries develop into an activity that is solely accessible by those who have extremely deep pockets. Creating a separate sector for the facilitators is simply the first step in doing just that.


Then why is the SFAB and SFI so bent on taking 8-20% of the commercial fishermans ability to earn a living away without any form of compensation?? To you it appears to be just a number. To many of these families that bought it (80%) it means there house, cars and families. And for what ... so the lodge and charter sector can increase from 1 and 1 to 2 and 3 to try and attact more clients, sorry but not acceptable.Again, the target is not those who actually prosecute their own quotas from their own rigs. I have nothing but respect for those that do so. What is not acceptable is the fact that many of those that own quota today do not fish it themselves, and in fact have become but "Brokers", getting wealthier each passing season by riding on the backs of honest, hard-working fishermen, the resource itself, while denying equitable access to the balance of the Citizens of Canada.


Although some of the lodges may be involved in recording the numbers and weights of the halibut caught by guests, they don't have to pay for on board observers and port monitors from company's such as Archipelago...

Nor should they have to SR. The two fisheries are quite disparate in terms of volume, related by-catch, size restrictions etc. There is an associated cost for those who have entered into the catch monitoring program. Chiefly this involves infrastructure and time. The thought here is to attempt to keep the costs reasonable in order to attract the largest participation possible. This program, due for expansion, I consider one of those issues that requires strong attention. We MUST come up with a program of reliable, accurate accountability. Any steps beyond the completely unreliable "guesstimates" of DFO are positive.


I agree DFO created this problem and should have been on the ball years ago to correct it. Unfortunalty for all sectors this is not the case.

Again this is about taking the privilege from one business and giving it to another business with zero compensation, nothing more nothing less. Can you imagine the court cases if you took away logs from one company and gave it to another, mineral rights, oil sands, the land your hose sits on.

Yes, this is a problematic situation directly created by DFO.

However comparing the Commercial Sector (very much a "business") to the Recreational Sector is in error. By simply focusing on the "business" aspect of the latter, you lump every single "average fisherman" in with them. I suspect the vast majority of those would sincerely question your considering their activities a "business". What is being sought here is an equitable division of access to the resource for ALL Canadians, rather than a system which relies entirely upon the notion that this Public Resource is actually a Privatized Commodity. Methinks there is room for all sectors to co-exist, but the current refusal to recognize "ownership" of the stocks is obviously driving deep wedges.

Do you really think that your statement: "All Canadian resources have been privatized in some way shape or form" makes this situation any more palatable to those who have witnessed the occurrence of privatization in this particular fishery? Or that this somehow makes it "right"?


If you really want to go down this road then lets open the fishery for all sectors April 1, and when the fish are caught(by whatever sector) then we close the fishery(for everyone). At the same time there will be no priority access on springs as there will be no allocations and again the season opens for all and closes for all when the numbers are reached.Stooping to this sort of "Fear Mongering" really doesn't help your cause. It does however indicate the likely direction regarding access if this travesty is allowed to continue. Perhaps best worded by Bryan Allen:

"Recreational fishers have now realized that halibut allocation is the thin edge of the wedge. Right now, discussions between DFO and the fishing industry are taking place on privatizing crab and prawns. DFO is undoubtabley eyeing other species as well. In English Common Law, dating back 800 years, the public has had the right to access marine fish resources. The government seems intent on destroying that principle. We can't let that happen. I hope others take the time to write DFO Minister Gail Shea and Prime Minister Stephen Harper to express their concern."
http://www.canada.com/take+fishing+rights+away/4093923/story.html

And that, in a nutshell, is what this controversy is all about. Not simply halibut, but our access to a great many fisheries is on the line. That access, is scheduled to get much worse under DFO's "guidance" if left unchecked. I would humbly suggest that this is a very serious matter for all who ply the waters with a rod, and fervently hope that many take Mr. Allen's advice regarding letting those who can make a difference know we are not happy with the current status, nor the direction in which it is heading!

Cheers,
Nog

[scott h]

Why not just slap a $10 fee on saltwater licences and buy out commercial licences?? Whatever amount that gets bought up gets added to the 12% sport fishing alotment. It won't happen overnight, but it will eventually work out that the sport fishery ends up with a larger percentage.Everyone (including the Albertans, Americans , Etc using the charter boats) will help pay for the eventual transfer of TAC.The more guys buying licences, the more $$ to buy back licences. The commercial guys will benefit as they will only sell if they want to (and someone will always sell for the right price).A win win for everyone.
Or we can continue to moan forever about how unfair everything is.

[bogman]

Why not just slap a $10 fee on saltwater licences and buy out commercial licences?? Whatever amount that gets bought up gets added to the 12% sport fishing alotment. It won't happen overnight, but it will eventually work out that the sport fishery ends up with a larger percentage.Everyone (including the Albertans, Americans , Etc using the charter boats) will help pay for the eventual transfer of TAC.The more guys buying licences, the more $$ to buy back licences. The commercial guys will benefit as they will only sell if they want to (and someone will always sell for the right price).A win win for everyone.
Or we can continue to moan forever about how unfair everything is.

Where do I send my $10. :-D

[Tripitaka]

Why not just slap a $10 fee on saltwater licences and buy out commercial licences?? Whatever amount that gets bought up gets added to the 12% sport fishing alotment. It won't happen overnight, but it will eventually work out that the sport fishery ends up with a larger percentage.Everyone (including the Albertans, Americans , Etc using the charter boats) will help pay for the eventual transfer of TAC.The more guys buying licences, the more $$ to buy back licences. The commercial guys will benefit as they will only sell if they want to (and someone will always sell for the right price).A win win for everyone.
Or we can continue to moan forever about how unfair everything is.

Sometimes, the best ideas can be the simple ones.

The "downside" to this is that there will be less commercial catch for the general public. The subsequent "upside" to that is that the hali prices will rise at market so the commercial guys will need to catch less to make the same money (stop me if I'm way off the mark on this).

Of course, the loser will be the halibut-buying public through higher prices but I'm pretty sure that halibut isn't a basic food source for the majority of Canadians. And of course, they all have the opportunity to get out there and catch their own! :-D

[The Hermit]

So, you purchased your halibut quota, and actually prosecute the fishery for that yourself. I have a handful of Buddies lierally in the same boat, and have nothing but respect for those that do this. They (and yourself I assume) are very hard working individuals, extremely knowledgeable of the sea and her denizens, and the type of Men I like to associate with.

That is not the issue. The thrust of this matter has very much to do with our federal government removing (without consent) 88% of the TAC from the Common Property Pool, and then simply giving that away For FREE to a handful of commercial operations. In a great many folks' eyes, that was WRONG.

The situation today is that but a small percentage of those who "own" this now Privately Traded Commodity actually fish their own portion of the overall TAC. The majority no longer even set foot on a boat, far preferring to engage in other activities whilst "leasing" their access to the resource to others at a rather exorbitant rate. Those that do lease quota work as hard as you do, yet at the end of the day have a much more trying time to make those boat payments you refer to. Once fuel, food, equipment, crew shares and the other related expenses are addressed, they see rather little jingle in their pockets for their efforts. Very little opportunity to get ahead under this regime.

To many, myself amongst them as well as quite a few of those who fish halibut commercially that I know (many btw) the lease system should become obsolete. Fish it yourself or lose it. Period. The days of getting fat on the backs of men such as yourself should be done away with. Padding the wallets of absentee "owners" does nothing to support the industry beyond simply padding already burgeoning wallets.

There have been several recent years when the overall commercial quota has not been realized. And the gist of that isn't so much an issue of not being able to catch them, but more focused on economic viability. When the prices go down, the effort slows. Couple that with the vast amount of product in storage further depressing product values, and there is a backlog of halibut both in cold storage, and swimming out there. Definitely some "wiggle room" to provide for a moderate increase to the recreational sector's catch...



Perhaps a few fit your description. However my personal experience suggests not nearly as many as you would have us believe. Yes, there are some larger operations based on our coast. But the days of expansion, especially under our current economic climate, are more than a thing of the past. Many Lodges have shut their doors and/or traded hands as a consequence of the dwindling client base. The Lodges might be able to ride this downturn out, some will, some won't. The impact on the small operators (such as myself) has been quite noticeable.

The vast majority of the guide/operators I know run fairly small shows. Most simply a single rig, a few with two, many less so with more than that. To suggest "greed" is the underlying reason for wishing to see a more equitable split to the TAC is in error. Most simply want to see reliability (as apposed to complete uncertainty) of access to the resource through the fishing season. Tough on people who come a long way simply to angle for one or two for the table to be turned away with the words "DFO closed it again". Tough to operate any business in that climate of uncertainty.

And while many do rely on the product commercially obtained, there is a large group of people from both near and far that wish to obtain their table fare by their own hand. Not to different from hunting IMHO. Does that also consitute "greed"?



Methinks you might want to do a little "homework" yourself on this matter. An awful amount of time, money and energy are expended each and every year by those engaged in the recreational industry for the purposes of enhancement and conservation. Much as hunters do, it is in their direct best interest to work towards maintaining and enhancing those stocks that support the fishing for all. And as noted above, the "commercial sports sector" isn't currently in a state of growth, actually the very reverse is true, and likely will be for a considerable time.



Guiding isn't simply having the nicest boat, nor simply the understanding of how to catch fish. There are MAJOR factors based on the ability to be a "People Person" and keep your clients happy and returning even when the fishing is less than stellar. And while I count many commercial operators amongst my closest Friends, there are damn few that could make that transition successfully.



That some will be affected is a given. The prophecy of "all going to be wiped out" is more than a little off base. The people involved are resiliant, determined, and happen to encompass more than a few "Thinking" individuals that collectively will make something of a difference. You WILL see this happen.

Pro 111, I am not singling you out specifically. Simply replying to what you have written. There very much is a place for both sectors to operate, and owner/operators such as yourself are to be admired for their tenacity and effort. Where the problem began was when The Dino decided to gift away a publicly owned resource. That has now been quite compounded by the manipulations of absentee "owners" who control the lives of honest working men and women, effectively block negotiations for transferring quota numbers to the opposing sector, and get very very wealthy on the backs of what should be still a Public Resource. It is time (overdue actually) for this system to be well scrutinized, and altered such that the real fishermen out there realize the benefit of their labors, and at the same time provide for a reliable recreational season. I don't know of any other way to rectify the current mess than doing so. The "Sporties" ain't asking for your quota, they are simply requesting a more equitable split in order to stabilize the existing fishery.

Is there room for improvement on the Recreational side? Of course! The current methods DFO uses to "guesstimate" their catch are beyond simplistic, and well subject to extremely wide variation from what really gets landed. That alone would help dramatically, and is something we are striving to get into place. Nor would many question the emplacement of annual "tags" such as is done with springs in BC. This is something else that could help track the real catch figures, and make the sector more accountable. And, another matter being investigated.

I hope your season goes well Pro 111. Shouldn't be all that difficult for you to understand that most of us "small-time" guys hope the same for our own little shows. Without change, the uncertainty those such as I face is extremely problematic. Between that, and the method DFO employed to strip access to a Common Property Resource away from the Common Property Pool and transfer that into a Privately Traded Commodity, many are incensed at what they feel was a down-right rip off. That many have formed a groundswell which grows daily. Again, they ain't after YOUR livelihood, but methinks those even with deep pockets that continue to manipulate the fishery while never setting foot on a boat might want to make notice...

Change is coming. :wink:

Cheers,
Nog

+100 to Nog! Well written and right on the money. Moreover the economic impact of the spor fishery to coastal communities are in fact as dependent on the sport fishery as oil is to Alberta and Potash is to Sask!

[fishharvester]

The 2.6% of commercial quota that remains in the water at this point is in fact a higher amount than the recreational sector was over this year. As it has been in the past several years in a row.
first off 34k of 6.5 mill is .05% that is what was left in the water. Pretty sure i sent you the link.


The current commercial "bycatch mortality" for Area 2B is approximately 16% of the current yield.
That would be referring to “commercial” U32 bycatch, which is counted and goes against BC TAC. 16% bycatch mortality for Area 2B? Equals a LOT, especially when looking at 12% total sport TAC! Just to make this clear, "commercial" U32 bycatch mortality for Area 2B is approximately 16% yield loss - that would be commercial U32 bycatch! I How is this justifiable? Is it possible that unwanted 16% wasted yield could be added to the current 12% sport, for a total of 28% sport TAC? I am talking percentages considered "wasted yield" via IPHC actual studies.
Yes there is wastage in the commerical fishery. Two years in a row the commercial sector has asked to remove/reduce the size limit in order to lessen this number. In the last three years the entire groundfish fleet has gone to cameras and paying for mortality as part of the integrated groundfish program. This has forced all fleets away from the traditional fishing grounds, away from rockfish and unfortunatly in where there is a higher percentage of smaller fish. This is changing in time as the fleet works it's way through the new program.
All that being said what is the wasteage in the rec fishery? Pretty easy to point the finger at a 100% monitored fishery where the stats are readily available.


We are talking Canada here. Area 2B (Canada) is, as noted, scheduled for an increase.
yes we are talking about Canada, but this is now designated a coast wide stock. That said what happens in any area affects other areas.


Again, we are dealing with a Canadian issue here. However since you brought this up: In 2010 Area 2B sport removal (catch) was 1.092. Want to put that in perspective? Area 4CDE “bycatch and waste” was 1.606. Just in Alaska Area 4CDE - they throw away in bycatch and waste more than DFO allows the entire Canadian sport fishery.
the yanks are years behind us in monitoring and cleaning up their fisheries. I believe the total number of fish wasted up there is astronomical.


Alaska is another matter. Here, it is ludicrous to suggest Canadian Anglers present any significant concern to the stock
regarding the removal of of the largest individuals, which in turn effects the "exploitable biomass" for all fisheries in Canadian waters. That is pretty well solely a commercial fishery effect.
I disagree the rec sector is over by 5-600,000lbs in the last 5 years. Close to 10% of the entire quota. Your really believe that has no effect?


An option which was put forward at the behest of the absentee owners. Directly designed to continue the cash flow to their already well-lined pockets.
An option put forward by DFO to provide flexibilty so we are not back at this fight year after year. It was also designed to give the lodge/charter sector some increased access(if they choose).


There is no parallel between guides/lodges and commercial fishermen. The lodges and guides are facilitators. It is the client that has a license to fish. The client lands the fish and the client takes the fish home to eat. So if these facilitators should be required to buy quota, where do you draw the line? How about BC Ferries and West Jet? They bring in anglers to go fishing halibut. Maybe the car rental companies, restaurants, motels and gas stations too? 75% of the lodge clients are Canadians who love to fish but don't have a boat that enables them to do so. The guides and lodges provide that service. They are not commercial fishing outfits, despite your continuous comments to the contrary..
Perhaps this we just agree to disagree on. I see any business that relies on the harvest of fish to be a commercial interest. There have been ads posted stating that if you come to our lodge the trip is free as you will cover your costs by the amount of seafood you will catch.


The SFI in conjunction with the BCWF and SFAB have publicly stated they will not support such an initiative. The reason stated is that were we to do so, it would further the PRIVATIZATION of this Common Property Resource, in effect buying into DFO's ill-founded notion that this resource is simply a Commodity, to be purchased and traded by those who have the economic means to do so (despite their insistence, contrary to their actions, that the resource belongs to all Canadian Citizens). This is a very dangerous path that could well impact a great many fisheries beyond halibut. Methinks none of us want to see our fisheries develop into an activity that is solely accessible by those who have extremely deep pockets. Creating a separate sector for the facilitators is simply the first step in doing just that. So give back the land your house sits on and turn it into a park for all canadians to enjoy:-D. And if we are talking deep pockets I thought it was only the rich and famous that can afford a charter as that fish is far more valuable then commercial caught fish that is sold to the public that can't afford a charter.


Again, the target is not those who actually prosecute their own quotas from their own rigs. I have nothing but respect for those that do so. What is not acceptable is the fact that many of those that own quota today do not fish it themselves, and in fact have become but "Brokers", getting wealthier each passing season by riding on the backs of honest, hard-working fishermen, the resource itself, while denying equitable access to the balance of the Citizens of Canada.
Easy to say when you have no Idea how the fishery works. Ever hear of "lease to own" or integrated fishing. Banks don't lend money on quotas. Therefore fishemen make arrangements to buy quota over time from fishers exiting the industry. This shows as fish that is leased every year, yet it is fish that has been bought and being paid for by those fisherman you say you have respect for. The integrated fishing that dfo mandated requires that all fleets be able to lease fish from eachother in order to reduce all mortality associated with their respected fishery.




We MUST come up with a program of reliable, accurate accountability. Any steps beyond the completely unreliable "guesstimates" of DFO are positive.
100% agreement here



However comparing the Commercial Sector (very much a "business") to the Recreational Sector is in error. By simply focusing on the "business" aspect of the latter, you lump every single "average fisherman" in with them. I suspect the vast majority of those would sincerely question your considering their activities a "business". What is being sought here is an equitable division of access to the resource for ALL Canadians, rather than a system which relies entirely upon the notion that this Public Resource is actually a Privatized Commodity. Methinks there is room for all sectors to co-exist, but the current refusal to recognize "ownership" of the stocks is obviously driving deep wedges.
I agree all sectors can co-exist, but it is going to take change from all sectors. SFAB is the one that lumped them together. Like I stated earlier we see a big difference between the average fisherman and the charter/lodge group.

Nog; You are obviously informed on some of the issues.
Do you feel that the south coast can be sustainable with the large number of anglers fishing year around?

[batesfarm]

[

I agree all sectors can co-exist, but it is going to take change from all sectors. SFAB is the one that lumped them together. Like I stated earlier we see a big difference between the average fisherman and the charter/lodge group.

There is no difference between the average fishermen and the charter/lodge group. It is me the "AVERAGE FISHERMEN" who doesn't have a boat accessing my common property resource pacific halibut by hiring a guide to take me to my fish.

It is me the 'AVERAGE FISHERMAN' going to the lodge!

No matter how you try to contort this, you are advocating that the AVERAGE ANGLER should buy quota. Think a moment. The lodge will have to tack on an additional "halibut quota fee" to my cost. So i still pay for it. Me, the AVERAGE ANGLER is unwilling to pay for something Canada already owns.

"oh Mr Bates, thats a nice hali you have there, its about 55-60 lbs. That will cost you an additional $5 per pound, so are you sure you want to keep that one? You will have pay an extra $275-$300 before you leave the camp"
(my camp cost in Nootka was $1500)

So dont try to BS the us that lodges are any different than the average angler. I would end up paying for it either way. And the halibut quota owner would profit.

Weather you want to add it on as a halibut stamp, charge me at a lodge, or charge me if I had my own boat its all the same me....the AVERAGE ANGLER.

[fishharvester]

There is no difference between the average fishermen and the charter/lodge group. It is me the "AVERAGE FISHERMEN" who doesn't have a boat accessing my common property resource pacific halibut by hiring a guide to take me to my fish.

It is me the 'AVERAGE FISHERMAN' going to the lodge!

No matter how you try to contort this, you are advocating that the AVERAGE ANGLER should buy quota. Think a moment. The lodge will have to tack on an additional "halibut quota fee" to my cost. So i still pay for it. Me, the AVERAGE ANGLER is unwilling to pay for something Canada already owns.

"oh Mr Bates, thats a nice hali you have there, its about 55-60 lbs. That will cost you an additional $5 per pound, so are you sure you want to keep that one? You will have pay an extra $275-$300 before you leave the camp"
(my camp cost in Nootka was $1500)

So dont try to BS the us that lodges are any different than the average angler. I would end up paying for it either way. And the halibut quota owner would profit.

Weather you want to add it on as a halibut stamp, charge me at a lodge, or charge me if I had my own boat its all the same me....the AVERAGE ANGLER.

$1500 must be nice to have that form of disposble income, I wonder if the average Canadian can afford that luxury? $5/lb for an additional halibut.... last time I looked it is pushing $18/lb in the store, but yeah you are really getting ripped off.

The option that was put forward was that if any angler felt they needed more than 1fish per day for the 200+ days of the year(for a whopping cost of $22) then they COULD choose to exceed the daily limit by acquiring more fish. Exactly how does this impact you so negitively that you feel it is alright to take away someone elses ability to make a living and provide for their family?

And don't put the lodges/charters on the same level as the average angler. They are hired professional fish harvesters packing the same gear and electronics as a commercial vessel, without the restrictions.

[IronNoggin]

Why not just slap a $10 fee on saltwater licences and buy out commercial licences?? Whatever amount that gets bought up gets added to the 12% sport fishing alotment. It won't happen overnight, but it will eventually work out that the sport fishery ends up with a larger percentage.

First: Under the terms of the User Fees Act "slapping a $10 fee on saltwater licences" for the purpose of acquiring halibut (or any other) quota is Illegal. Cannot be done. Period. User Fees Act: http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/U-3.7/page-1.html

Second: Buying or leasing quota provides a clear indication that the recreational fishery supports the concept of privatization of common property resources. I do NOT believe that most participants in our fishery support this concept. I also believe that it directly represents a "profit a prendre", or "profit before taken" which implies ownership of a fish before it is caught, which is simply awaiting a legal challenge to confirm that it is Illegal.

Supporting ownership of fish by private individuals or businesses will do nothing more than sell out the access rights of future generations. If we agree to it for halibut, then salmon, crab, prawns, and more will be next.


Of course, the loser will be the halibut-buying public through higher prices but I'm pretty sure that halibut isn't a basic food source for the majority of Canadians. And of course, they all have the opportunity to get out there and catch their own! :grin:

Since ~ 70% of the commercially caught halibut ends up in the US marketplace, the effects upon Canadian consumers would never be as drastic as some would lead you to believe. Your last line does touch on the matter at hand though. It very much is the "opportunity to get out there and catch their own" that is being infringed on.


first off 34k of 6.5 mill is .05% that is what was left in the water. Pretty sure i sent you the link.

According to DFO's figures, there was actually 168,136 lbs (2.5%) of the TAC left in the water as of today at 7:30 am. Page 3 (Combined Totals) of this report: http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/contractordata/rptsectorcatch%20summary.pdf

And no, you did not send me any links.


Yes there is wastage in the commerical fishery.The Integrated Groundfish Program is simply the cost of doing business while avoiding or accommodating mortalities amongst non-target species. I think we can all agree this is a desirable outcome. Interesting use of that to defend wastage though.

And yes, there is likely some "wastage" in the recreational sector. At a FAR less scale than that witnessed in the commercial fishery. You understand as well as I just how hardy these fish are. The vast majority released properly from a sport line will survive.


I disagree the rec sector is over by 5-600,000lbs in the last 5 years. Close to 10% of the entire quota. Your really believe that has no effect?I'd LOVE to have the crystal ball you employ to come up with these numbers! On one hand you agree that the current system DFO employs to GUESS as to recreational landing is entirely inaccurate, and needs some serious attention to bring it anywhere near a "reliable and accurate" state. On the other hand you employ the highest possible "guesses" to suggest the recreational sector is removing many of the larger individuals from the population. I still agree that the catch monitoring system needs some serious effort. As I actively fish halibut a lot, and do see what "sporties" actually do land, I strongly disagree with your assessment regarding their impact, especially where the removal of large, breeding females are concerned.


Perhaps this we just agree to disagree on. I see any business that relies on the harvest of fish to be a commercial interest. Yes, we disagree. I have posted ad naseatum regarding the reasons why. These are simply glorified "Water Taxis" that take the general license purchasing public to the fish.


So give back the land your house sits on and turn it into a park for all canadians to enjoyApples and oranges again. Privatization of Common Property Resources is intolerable, and formed the beginnings of this entire issue.


Easy to say when you have no Idea how the fishery works. Ever hear of "lease to own" or integrated fishing.I actually am reasonably familiar with how the fishery works thank-you. And I well understand just how many years (decades) it takes for any starting off to lease to own sufficient quota as to be sustainable. I also understand there is a requirement for lease quota amongst the fisheries that take halibut as incidental catch. A pool could easily be set aside for the latter.
Taking the absentee owners (not those that lease to their own crew on their own rigs) who have no intention of involvement beyond the Broker status frees a LOT of quota for honest fishermen who do work the fishery, more available for up-and-comers, and incidentally a little left to allow access for those even DFO insists actually "own" the resource.


I agree all sectors can co-exist, but it is going to take change from all sectors. SFAB is the one that lumped them together. Like I stated earlier we see a big difference between the average fisherman and the charter/lodge group. Change is coming, and it will likely effect all. On the matter of your perception of the charter/lodge group, I am not at all surprised. Your sector knows well this is a divisive issue, and well play that to try and keep the recreational sector divided. Regardless of your sector's stance, the issues surrounding privatization and legalities make this a non-starter.


Nog; You are obviously informed on some of the issues.
Do you feel that the south coast can be sustainable with the large number of anglers fishing year around?Some. Interesting topic you've suggested. However I believe we will focus on the matter at hand before wandering off on another tangent. Another thread if you feel this is significant enough to warrant such...


No matter how you try to contort this, you are advocating that the AVERAGE ANGLER should buy quota.

EXACTLY Bates. That is the real Bottom Line here. It is the commercial sector's stance that ALL halibut should be under quota, read PRIVATIZED. I am please that some such as you can see that through all the smoke and mirrors.


Exactly how does this impact you so negitively that you feel it is alright to take away someone elses ability to make a living and provide for their family?

By continuing and forwarding the Privatization of a Public Resource. No-one has suggested taking away the access from those that actually fish. As for the absentee owners (Brokers) methinks they have made a pretty good pile of coin to provide for their families on the backs of real fishermen and the resource already. Time for that particular Free Ride to come to a close.


And don't put the lodges/charters on the same level as the average angler. They are hired professional fish harvesters packing the same gear and electronics as a commercial vessel, without the restrictions.

LOL! Now that is one hell of a reach! Yes, most pack good reliable electronics - it's referred to as Safety Precautions. But the last time I looked, they were all packing but a few rods in comparison to MILES of groundline and hooks. No real comparison, but a nice reach anyway...

This subject is heating up. More and more media types are getting onto it, and their daily readings are becoming a rather common occurrence. More than a few Town Councils, Mayors, MLA's etc are stepping up to voice their concerns. The meetings continue (I actually came back from fishing simply to note tomorrow night's meeting in Nanaimo) and the letters continue to land on politician's desks. We are making headway, albeit slowly. Any that can write and send a letter can help! I hope access to our fisheries strikes enough of you as important for you to write a few of your own...

Meeting Tomorrow Night, January 18, 7:00 pm, Bevan Park Auditorium, Nanaimo.

Cheers,
Nog

[Mr. Dean]

Nog;

Your knowledge of OUR fishery is exceptional and personally, I applaude you're efforts in passing on the info that is IMPORTANT to The Sport Fisherman of BC, and to that of Canada.

The bottom line is that the hali fishery IS a common resource and IMO, those that are wanting access to it (for personal usages), SHOULD BE GRANTED IT!, before fish are allotted to 'other parts of the planet' that we live on.

There is ABSOLUTELY no need for having to pay 'anything', nor for reduction in SF quota's.... In fact, they NEED be substantialy RAISED! If this means a transfer of quota from the CF, then so be it. I'm sick-n-tired of being played as a second (third, even) fiddle.




Cheers.

[IronNoggin]

Meeting Tonight, January 18, 7:00 pm,
Bevan Park Auditorium, Nanaimo.

Should be a good One! Hope a few of ya'll can attend! :twisted:

Cheers,
Nog

PS: Thanks Mr. Dean :wink:

[Johnnybear]

My son and I went to the Nanaimo town hall meeting this evening and we were quite surprised to see the turn out. I believe around 400 concerned folks showed up. Lot's of sportsfisherman, a few commercial fisherman, and a couple of MP's.

There was some good information presented. Some great open mike comments as well. We both thought it was a good meeting and came out of it more knowledgeable about the whole situation.

A big thank you to all the folks that put this thing together. It was a good discussion and it was great to see so many concerned folks show up. I would highly suggest anyone from the Mid to North Island go to the one in Campbell River tomorrow evening!

[fishharvester]

According to DFO's figures, there was actually 168,136 lbs (2.5%) of the TAC left in the water as of today at 7:30 am. Page 3 (Combined Totals) of this report: http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/contractordata/rptsectorcatch%20summary.pdf

And no, you did not send me any links.



You need to look at page 4 where there is a total for halibut taken by all groundfish vessels. DFO has forced all fleets to be accountable for their catch.

[IronNoggin]

You need to look at page 4 where there is a total for halibut taken by all groundfish vessels. DFO has forced all fleets to be accountable for their catch.

Page Four notes 165,529 pounds remain in the water (2.5%).
Being held accountable for catch is desirable, with the end result hopefully greatly reduced waste (tossing dead fish back when they are not on your list).

Last of the Island Meetings tonight in Campbell River:

Town Hall Meeting January 19th
7:00 PM Maritime Heritage Centre
621 North Island Highway, Campbell River

This may well be amongst the most important issues faced by the recreational sector we have ever dealt with, and will certainly effect our access to all marine species down the road. I truly hope some of you can make it!

Cheers,
Nog

[303Brit]

Nog, LP1 is driving the bus and a bunch of guys from that valley will be going. Let you know how it goes down ;)

303

[IronNoggin]

Nog, LP1 is driving the bus and a bunch of guys from that valley will be going. Let you know how it goes down

Cool! http://bestsmileys.com/thumbs/7.gif

I'll be the wiry guy with grey (white?) hair wearing an NWT Leather Jacket with a Polar Bear on the back. If you see me, stop to shake my paw!

See you there! :wink:

Cheers,
Matt

[303Brit]

Cool! http://bestsmileys.com/thumbs/7.gif

I'll be the wiry guy with grey (white?) hair wearing an NWT Leather Jacket with a Polar Bear on the back. If you see me, stop to shake my paw!

See you there! :wink:

Cheers,
Matt


I'm sure Lorne will point you out ;)

303

[fishharvester]

Page Four notes 165,529 pounds remain in the water (2.5%).
Being held accountable for catch is desirable, with the end result hopefully greatly reduced waste (tossing dead fish back when they are not on your list).

Cheers,
Nog

Great you found the page. Now deduct the current overages and that is what is left in the water approx 34k.

[IronNoggin]

Thanks for the correction, and the thread bump FishHarvester!

Off to Campbell River! :twisted:

Cheers,
Nog

[Moosegetter]

Just got back from the CR meeting. It was very informitive and well worth attending. Thanks David

[303Brit]

Ya it wasn't bad, I thought I saw you there Moosegetter.

303

[Tyee]

Did Duncan show ?

[303Brit]

Mr. Duncan nor the MLA attended lastnights town hall. Which sends a pretty clear message to me about their position on the situation, and their utter lack of respect for the concerns of their constituents.

303

[IronNoggin]

Good to see you 303, as well as Lorne, IslandGirl and many more! Great showing Folks!

Here's Duncan's official release on this issue from today:

Statement by John Duncan MP on Halibut Allocation

For immediate release

COURTENAY, JANUARY 20, 2011 – In recent weeks there has been considerable discussion on the issue of halibut allocation. I would like to take this opportunity to clarify my position on this issue.

Concerned anglers want to ensure that they maintain their access to a public resource. As a recreational fisher, this is a position that I strongly support.

There have been many developments in recent years that have influenced the management of and pressures on BC’s halibut stocks. For example, BC’s commercial halibut fishery changed to 100% monitoring using camera technology in 2006, and has become integrated with the ground fishery. The design of this fishery has ended bycatch waste and depoliticised the allocation of the resource within the commercial sector. At the same time, the commercial sector of the recreational halibut fishery (guides and lodges) has grown dramatically to become an important contributor to our economy, but has also increased pressure on the recreational allocation.

We are currently in a cyclical decline in Halibut abundance on the West Coast, to the point that the current total allowable catch is about half of what it was four years ago. This obviously puts pressure on all users of the resource as they try to maintain their livelihoods and recreational pursuits in the face of decreasing catch. In response to this, it is understandable that people are focusing on who gets access to the fish.

The key concern that we must focus on, however, is the sustainability of the resource. Management of this fishery, including allocation decisions, should be based on science, thorough monitoring and good management principles. There are many examples historically to demonstrate that decisions based on politics rather than science rarely yield the best result for the fishery.

A lasting and equitable solution will require all of the parties to work together in good faith and with the best interest of the resource in mind. Our primary concern must remain the health and sustainability of the fishery, and any change must provide a fair balance between the unique West Coast requirements of the First Nation, recreation and commercial sectors.

For more information, please contact:

Minister's Office
Office of the Honourable John Duncan
Director of Communications
Michelle Yao
Michelle.Yao@inac.gc.ca

Seems your assessment was Bang-On 303 :evil:

[IronNoggin]

At the same time, the commercial sector of the recreational halibut fishery (guides and lodges) has grown dramatically to become an important contributor to our economy, but has also increased pressure on the recreational allocation.

There we go with the "Party Line" yet again? What part of "service providers" doesn't he get? Obviously designed to try and keep the Recreational Sector firmly divided. Not this time methinks! :twisted:


The key concern that we must focus on, however, is the sustainability of the resource. Management of this fishery, including allocation decisions, should be based on science, thorough monitoring and good management principles. There are many examples historically to demonstrate that decisions based on politics rather than science rarely yield the best result for the fishery.

Ummm.. Seems everyone else understands that this is not a "Conservation Issue". Guess he might want to enlighten the Halibut Commission that all of their efforts and conclusions are out to lunch? http://fishbcforum.com/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

I'd really like to understand just how the giving away of 88% of the TAC was based on "Science" and "good management principles" rather than Politics. Laughable were it not so far out there... http://fishbcforum.com/public/style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif


A lasting and equitable solution will require all of the parties to work together in good faith and with the best interest of the resource in mind. Our primary concern must remain the health and sustainability of the fishery, and any change must provide a fair balance between the unique West Coast requirements of the First Nation, recreation and commercial sectors.


It has become obvious that DFO has NO interest whatsoever in working with either side of this equation "in good faith". In fact, the divisiveness between the two groups is being actively encouraged, it is a rather strong tactic after all.

Our fight is NOT with the commercial fishermen, especially so with those who actually fish. They have been lead into this miserable situation directly by DFO as much as we have. Rather our fight is with "management" or the lack thereof as the case may be. Although they are mandated to ensure our resources are managed for the best and wisest use, their actions indicate anything but. Time to let them know this is INTOLERABLE!

We have said all along that the health and sustainability of the resource is indeed priority number one - no argument there. As for "any change must provide a FAIR balance" - that is EXACTLY what this matter is all about: Fair and Equitable distribution of this Common Property Resource! Bloody shame that Duncan firmly believes that keeping the Recreational Sector throttled back to 12% is somehow Fair? http://fishbcforum.com/public/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif

Given Mr. Duncan won his last election by less than 2,400 votes with a rather small showing of the electorate, methinks the time has come to let him know just how far we collectively exceed that margin, and that his days are NUMBERED!

I will be writing him a response. Will post here once I have done so...

Final note for now: I never set out to become involved in a Political Battle, in fact I very much detest the fact that I am now. We have politely tried for years upon years via the SFAB, the local Community Councils, Round-tables and more. All pretty much a dismal failure. DFO simply doesn't place any importance on recreational fisheries, never have, and still refuses to do so. It is they who created this mess we are now in, and it is they alone who can fix it. Unfortunate as hell that they continue to express no desire to do so. Their very actions have made "reasonable dialogue" a complete waste of effort. And so, they have painted us into the corner we now stand in. If we stand idely by on this issue, we are certain to face much of the same treatment when it comes down to access for all marine resources. Sad fact, unfortunately true.

The ONLY thing they do seem to understand at this juncture is pressure upon their governors, the elected officials of this Great Nation. So be it. Although it causes me a good deal of stress, I will continue to pound the letters at them, on a frequent basis. One letter is a good start Folks, one a week MUCH better! If we are now to become the "Squeaky Wheel" it is time for the bearings to come off. I urge every one of you reading this to take a few moments and express your concern over this issue, regardless of which side of the fence you might sit on.

Cheers,
Nog

PS: Channel A News, early edition this evening. Worth the watch :wink:

[RustyRipper]

The key concern that we must focus on, however, is the sustainability of the resource. Management of this fishery, including allocation decisions, should be based on science, thorough monitoring and good management principles. There are many examples historically to demonstrate that decisions based on politics rather than science rarely yield the best result for the fishery.


read it again nog

[IronNoggin]

read it again nog

"Management of this fishery, including allocation decisions, should be based on science, thorough monitoring and good management principles. There are many examples historically to demonstrate that decisions based on politics rather than science rarely yield the best result for the fishery."

Oh I've read it alright RR. And I well believe that this situation is certainly a shining example that demonstrates decisions based on Politics have NOT yielded the best result for the fishery. All sides of the fishery that is :wink:

Cheers,
Nog

[IronNoggin]

http://bestsmileys.com/doh/2.gif

And I'll politely request you go back, read the posts in this thread and become at least a little bit informed before you post next time. That way you just might have something sort of worthwhile to contribute... :wink:

Cheers,
Nog

[Tyee]

I would hope to hear after the IPHC meeting this week in Victoria. We need to stay away from infighting as we are all sport fishing, no matter how much we take. It's our childrens right to look forward to fishing also

[Johnnybear]

I would hope to hear after the IPHC meeting this week in Victoria. We need to stay away from infighting as we are all sport fishing, no matter how much we take. It's our childrens right to look forward to fishing also

Good post Tyee.

IPHC Meetings in Victoria January 24-28


The IPHC annual meeting where the TAC is set will be taking place next week in Victoria at the Delta Ocean


Pointe Resort from Monday January 24 to Friday January 28. Public sessions take place Tuesday between


9:00 and 1:00 and again on Friday between 9:00 and 11:00. Suspect there may be a B.C. Sport Fishing


Coalition presence there.
I would HIGHLY suggest any sportsfisherman in the area to attend said meeting above during the public sessions. GET INVOLVED. This is not just about halibut. Many other fisheries are going to be effected. PRAWNS, CRAB, and SALMON are all at stake in the future with our current managers of DFO:evil:.

Are you going to be at one of the public sessions Tyee?

[Tyee]

I plan on it Tue I hope

[Johnnybear]

I plan on it Tue I hope

Good on ya man. I agree with you and I do hope there are fish for my children and grandchildren (future) to try to fish for, feed themselves, protect, and enjoy this great public resource.


Again if any sportsfisherman want to continue what they do they should ge INVOLVED with this.

[dryflyguy57]

We all forget about the Halibut quota given in provincial treaties , hard to go back on that one if you think about it for a second . Funny how most on here don't seem to say dick about American commercial sport fisheries happening in our country or the Canadian lodges that carry on a as hotel that rents boats (gimmie a break) and aren't really commercial users of the resource . As I said earlier the Natives of this province have received Halibut Quota in Treaties . Ponder that thought for a while everybody as I don't think the Sport Lobby did . Anyone know if this topic was brought up in any meetings ?

[Caribou_lou]

I was at a meeting with Nathan Cullen (region 6) earlier this year and Halibut was one of our main subjects... He seemed to be out to lunch on the whole situation. But it was brought to his attention... I also feel that when we call it a sport fishery, we are stepping on our own toes... start calling it a harvest fishery or a sustanance fishery and we will be doing the resiudent of BC a huge favour!! Stop looking at it as a sport and more of a life style and that may give us some leverage.

[dryflyguy57]

Sounds like the lodges and charter operators are being seen by the public as the commercial ventures they really are , not just hotels that rent boats to Joe public . Starting to see a momentum shift against the commercial sports lobby me thinks . They look greedy and ill-informed in my opinion . Still no talk of the U S sports catch in our waters . Once again I ask was this brought up at any "Halibut War" meetings or was all the blame on our own citizens . Read the Sun today to see what i am talking about .

[RustyRipper]

I was at a meeting with Nathan Cullen (region 6) earlier this year and Halibut was one of our main subjects... He seemed to be out to lunch on the whole situation. But it was brought to his attention... I also feel that when we call it a sport fishery, we are stepping on our own toes... start calling it a harvest fishery or a sustanance fishery and we will be doing the resiudent of BC a huge favour!! Stop looking at it as a sport and more of a life style and that may give us some leverage.

Thats a very good point. And since we are talking about the difference between lodges and average joe anglers that is pretty much it. A lot of people have a hard time accepting that lodges are similar to commercial fishing but you cannot say that they are not sport fishing. The average joe may be fishing to supply themself and their family with fresh fish to eat but you can't believe for a second that most lodges are there to supply food for anglers. It is almost strictly sport and that is what the biggest difference is between lodge and personal angling is.

[IronNoggin]

National Post:

Readers of the Vancouver Sun may have noticed that recreational anglers have been getting increasingly concerned about the future of the halibut fishery in British Columbia. While I doubt that most people have given it much thought, the facts about the fishery might come as quite a surprise.



Our fisheries are a common property owned by every Canadian. That is our history and tradition, and we demonstrated our personal connection to our fisheries last summer when thousands of ordinary Canadian lined the banks of the Fraser River for a chance to catch a fish or two.



For the past 80 years Pacific halibut have been managed by the International Pacific Halibut Commission (IHPC), an international body whose mandate is to ensure that the halibut resource is managed sustainably for future generations. The IHPC does an excellent job and continues to ensure that both Canada and the US only harvest halibut at a scientifically sustainable level. The management of our halibut resource is not in dispute.
The problem, however, lies in how Canada chooses to allocate its share of the allowable harvest.



In 2003, however, then Fisheries Minister Robert Thibault bowed to a concerted lobbying effort by politically-connected commercial fishers and effectively gifted 88 per cent of Canada's annual halibut catch to 435 commercial quota holders, most of who had received their initial allocation for free. BC's 100,000 recreational halibut anglers were told to share the remaining 12 per cent among themselves.



To be clear, there was no auction or market test. With the stroke of a pen, the Minister simply created a policy that gave 435 individuals the exclusive right to harvest 88 per cent of a resource that Canadians' thought they owned. The quota holders struck gold, and proceeded to reap their new-found riches. Indeed, most quota holders quickly figured out that actually catching their share of the resource was a fool's endeavour and began leasing out their rights to others on a year-by-year basis while they simply stayed home and collected lease payments. In fact, only 130 of the 436 quota holders actually fished last season, and according to 2009 Ecotrust Canada study, "Today, lease fees are effectively charged on almost every pound of halibut quota in BC".



In contrast, the recreational sector has suffered. As the total allowable catch has gone through a cyclical decline, our sector's 12 per cent allocation has meant shorter fish seasons and catch limits that have been reduced by 50 per cent. This has hurt the businesses that support and equip recreational anglers and has meant that Canada's economic return on halibut has declined needlessly.



Naturally, commercial quota holders want to protect their new-found wealth. They argue that sport fishing lodges and guides that cater to wealthy Americans are catching too much halibut. In fact, Fisheries and Oceans Canada's recent survey showed that the vast majority of anglers who use guides or lodges are Canadians from every walk of life who want to try and catch a halibut, but lack the equipment, boat or expertise to do so on their own.



The commercial quota holders claim that they are putting halibut on Canadian's dinner tables, but neglect to mention that they export 70 per cent of their catch to the U.S.



The quota holders argue that recreational anglers do not monitor their catch, when in fact lodges report accurate catch and length data to DFO throughout the year. This data is which is audited, validated and accepted by the IHPC.



The quota holders say that lodges are expanding when in fact the province has seen 10 lodges close in recent years as a result of the recession and new fishing restrictions.



Commercial quota holders will always catch the vast majority of Canada's annual halibut harvest. Recreational anglers are by their very nature inefficient and do not catch more than they can reasonably use. All that recreational anglers ask, is that government amend its flawed allocation policy and give recreational anglers a few more percentage points of the sustainable harvest so that they can enjoy predictable fishing seasons and so that every Canadian who wants to, has a reasonable chance to try a fish or two.


http://www.nationalpost.com/Recreational+anglers+deserve+fair+catch/4159534/story.html

[pro 111]

Nice letter , and way to go on your persisstance . You are still talking a lot of bullshit however . Just answer us all 1 question . Are you in the the sports fishing business or are you just average joe that likes to put fish on the table for your family.
PS. Great choice on the user name , I think it suits you quite well.

[Sitkaspruce]

Thats a very good point. And since we are talking about the difference between lodges and average joe anglers that is pretty much it. A lot of people have a hard time accepting that lodges are similar to commercial fishing but you cannot say that they are not sport fishing. The average joe may be fishing to supply themself and their family with fresh fish to eat but you can't believe for a second that most lodges are there to supply food for anglers. It is almost strictly sport and that is what the biggest difference is between lodge and personal angling is.

Another single minded and tunell visioned thought, no different than the archers vs gun hunters, or flyfishers vs metal tosers. When are we, as Canadians, going to start to join together and stand up as a group to defend what is rightfully ours to share. Jumping on the commercial bandwagon (which you are when you go against the lodges) divides us and makes it easier to fight against.

The simple question is, are you fighting for the recreation quota for Halibut or are you against it?? You have to make a stand for or against, not be for it, but against the lodges. Who really cares if the lodges catch a few fish and make some $$$ at it, at least they are employing a lot of people and giving everyday Canadians a chance to catch a great tasting fish. Thats a lot more that the Slipper Skippers are doing......


Nice letter , and way to go on your persisstance . You are still talking a lot of bullshit however . Just answer us all 1 question . Are you in the the sports fishing business or are you just average joe that likes to put fish on the table for your family.
PS. Great choice on the user name , I think it suits you quite well.

WOW, that pretty stong words. Ironnoggin is first and formost and sport fisherman, not that he needs me to tell you that. Just look at all his posts on here and the few other fishing forums in BC. And as I said above, who cares if he or others charter fisherman, we need to stand together on the Halibut quota or we will be left with nothing but the bitching and complaining and finger pointing that is happening now.

We need to wake up folks or there will be nothing to fight for.....

Here is a good llink to who to right letters to and how to go about it.....plus an interesting post about ALL of us joining together (Commies and sporties) and pressuring DFO about all fish stocks.

http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/showthread.php?14794-Cambell-Riiver-Halibut-meeting

Cheers

SS

[Spy]

Another single minded and tunell visioned thought, no different than the archers vs gun hunters, or flyfishers vs metal tosers. When are we, as Canadians, going to start to join together and stand up as a group to defend what is rightfully ours to share. Jumping on the commercial bandwagon (which you are when you go against the lodges) divides us and makes it easier to fight against.

The simple question is, are you fighting for the recreation quota for Halibut or are you against it?? You have to make a stand for or against, not be for it, but against the lodges. Who really cares if the lodges catch a few fish and make some $$$ at it, at least they are employing a lot of people and giving everyday Canadians a chance to catch a great tasting fish. Thats a lot more that the Slipper Skippers are doing......



WOW, that pretty stong words. Ironnoggin is first and formost and sport fisherman, not that he needs me to tell you that. Just look at all his posts on here and the few other fishing forums in BC. And as I said above, who cares if he or others charter fisherman, we need to stand together on the Halibut quota or we will be left with nothing but the bitching and complaining and finger pointing that is happening now.

We need to wake up folks or there will be nothing to fight for.....

Here is a good llink to who to right letters to and how to go about it.....plus an interesting post about ALL of us joining together (Commies and sporties) and pressuring DFO about all fish stocks.

http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/showthread.php?14794-Cambell-Riiver-Halibut-meeting

Cheers

SS

Well said! Lets all stand Together, As one & deal with this now before its to late. Anyone thought of writing Letters & sending them Directly to Harper!
Just a thought!:-D

[Keta1969]

As a sportsfisherman I will not support An increase in quota until the lodges and guides catch is capped.They currently take 69% of the sports allocation they are commercial,without fish they have no clients and make no money.They currently get their share for nothing and want to increase it so that they can continue to expand their business.We are in a period of low Total Allowable Catch,all parties should contribute to ensure the sustainability of the resource.The resident angler is not the problem and it is a mistake to align ourselves with the commercial sports groups.Our intrests are not the same.And please dont give me the line about just facillitating an experience,thats what pimps do.If you make money you are commercial plain and simple.

[303Brit]

It's going to be unfortunate if the rec fishing community gets the shaft over this. Especially when all you pro commies, start whining about how you have no fish to catch. You'll get the same response from us as you so quickly dish out to us islanders about gates.

The lodges are providing a service to the people that either don't have the means, knowledge or capabilities to do it themselves. I get to see first hand what happens when people who are ill equipped attempt to go out rec fishing in an area that they shouldn't. It results in many long ours for me and the people at my unit.(442Sqn) They are making their money off the fact that they have the equipment/knowledge that some other people dont have, can't justify buying or don't have the cash to buy. Unlike the commies which make their money off the FISH. The me before you attitude is ridiculous, who in their right mind would ever say that a reasonable split of anything is 88-12. It's not like we in the rec fishing community are asking for a 50/50 split. We are asking for less than 2% from each quota holder.

Finally like so many other people on this forum are usually so quick to point out. NOBODY put a gun to your head and said "YOU WILL BE A COMMERCIAL HALIBUT FISHERMAN" you made the choice, you are attempting to turn a profit from a natural resource that is OURS as a Nation.

I'm not even going to bother with the crap arguments about lodges being commercial, or how much money does or doesn't come back to Canada or BC from either group. As that is what is fuel half of this fire, stop being so petty and greedy. This is more about that fact that the sport fishing community has grown and the current split of the nations alotment of Halibut is unacceptable.

After all isn't most of views of people on this site is that more people should get out of the concrete jungles and view some of what this province and country has to offer? How are people suppose to do this if the season is 2 months long during one of the more dangerous times of the year to fish it (which is why the derby style commie openings were changed) and there is nobody to show them how much fun it can be! It's pretty ridiculous how many people on the site complain about the ignorant citidiots but do nothing to enlighten them. Is it becuase your afraid they might shoot "YOUR" trophy animal or catch it, or take a few bucks off your profit margin????
The best way for us as outdoors people to win our arguments with the city folk is to share it with them, the experience will change them forever.

303

[Weatherby Fan]

As a sportsfisherman I will not support An increase in quota until the lodges and guides catch is capped.They currently take 69% of the sports allocation they are commercial,without fish they have no clients and make no money.They currently get their share for nothing and want to increase it so that they can continue to expand their business.We are in a period of low Total Allowable Catch,all parties should contribute to ensure the sustainability of the resource.The resident angler is not the problem and it is a mistake to align ourselves with the commercial sports groups.Our intrests are not the same.And please dont give me the line about just facillitating an experience,thats what pimps do.If you make money you are commercial plain and simple.

Keta1969
you need to understand that every person that goes and stays at a lodge in BC buys a BC sports fishing licence so their entitle to catch a halibut or 2 just like the next guy with a licence ,does it really matter where they stay,the lodge doesn't get the fish the people catching them take them home like you and I and on top of that they can only have 2 halibut in posession when they fly out even if they stay for a month,
I fished halibut commercially for years and now I do some part time work for a sports fishing lodge so I've seen both sides of the issue,I don't even want to get into how many people from BC are employed by that lodge and the economic spin off for the people in British Columbia,
with that being said you have to look at the TAC and divide it fairly for all and quit the blame game,thats where the issue lies,but before that there needs to be fish to divide up,we all need to stick together and look after the fish first !

[IronNoggin]

Just answer us all 1 question . Are you in the the sports fishing business or are you just average joe that likes to put fish on the table for your family.

I am both. I fish for myself on an extremely frequent basis.
And I operate a single charter rig out of Ucluelet. Halibut fishing trips have dropped to ~ 20% of my particular operation due to shortened seasons and halved limits. To suggest that I am somehow "greedy" for wanting more access for my own operation is ludicrous, the harvest from my boat is inconsequential. This particular fishery represents but one small component of my "vested interest", and as such any gains for our sector will have but a small impact on what it is I do. I am in this fight for ALL recreational fishers, including you.


Great choice on the user name , I think it suits you quite well.

Nice. Although it is perhaps a tad more fitting than your own? :wink:


... we need to stand together on the Halibut quota or we will be left with nothing but the bitching and complaining and finger pointing that is happening now.

We need to wake up folks or there will be nothing to fight for.....

Very true Sitka.


Anyone thought of writing Letters & sending them Directly to Harper!

Yes, letters have been sent to the Minister (DFO), the PM (Harper) and a great many MP's & MLA's. We actively encourage everyone concerned to send in their letters to the same.


As a sportsfisherman I will not support An increase in quota until the lodges and guides catch is capped....The resident angler is not the problem and it is a mistake to align ourselves with the commercial sports groups.Our intrests are not the same.

Everyone's "interests" who recreationally fish for halibut ARE the same. Simply some have been blindfolded by the divisive tactic you have noted your support for. As Sitka noted above, you have made your decision. That is your right. Unfortunate that you now align yourself against your own sector, for by that decision, that is exactly what you are doing.

I have explained that there is no mechanism to allow such a splintering of our sector, that without sweeping overhauls of the existing Regulations any relating fishing activity would in fact be illegal. It has also been noted that even were we to buy into this suggestion, it would literally take years for DFO to facilitate making it work. Moreover I have noted that the underlying unwillingness to create yet another layer of "commercial fishing" is based on the simple notion that the privatization of this Common Property Resource was wrong when it was initiated, and the vast majority of our sector (at least those who actually get involved http://forum.flybc.ca/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif ) are dead-set against furthering DFO's position that this is but a Privately Traded Commodity.

Lets however assume for a moment what you suggest could be emplaced painlessly and reasonably quickly. So now Joe Farmer from somewhere BC (or Alberta, or anywhere else in Canada for that matter) arrives for his long anticipated fishing foray offshore, with a guide as he has no boat/equipment/knowledge to facilitate his fishing urge on his own (and likely has no interest in doing so). He and his family have saved up for the trip, they aren't overly inexpensive. But this is their "Dream Vacation" and so they man-up to the costs, and set off to find some fun. Out on the grounds, a short while later Joe tags into a decent halibut. After a good half hour or so struggle, the halibut is now boatside. Beauty says their guide. Looks to be about 40 pounds or so. Now, if you want to keep this fish, you'll have to cough the quota fees we had to pay for your right to catch and keep this wonderful fish. Current rates are around $ 5.00/lb, so, 5 clams times forty pounds is $ 200.00. What say you, do we bring him aboard?
Joe's response, at first incredulous, turns to wonder. So if I do buy the fish, on top of my charter fees, does the money I give you end up somehow working towards the betterment of the resource? Embarrassed, the guide replies; Ummm, no. Actually we got the quota from an absentee owner. All the money we collect for our access will go directly into his pocket to keep him, and his family, in the rather splendid lifestyle they have grown accustomed to by leasing their access to others. Joe cuts the line in disgust, and never returns.

Far fetched? Not likely. Lodges and guides spend a huge amount on infrastructure: boats, safety equipment, electronics, fishing equipment, moorage, insurance, fuel and more. The price of riding with them is very much a reflection of the costs of setting up and maintaining such operations. Any increase in their operational expenses have to be passed along to the clients in order to make the business viable. For those that perceive these operations to be raking in massive amounts of profits, I suggest you are sadly misinformed. Many barely make it into the black. And then there is the fairy tale regarding explosive growth in this sector. In fact, these organizations have been suffering as much as any under the current downward economic climate. So much so that in excess of a dozen lodges closed their doors, permanently, in the last couple of years alone.

And then there is Joe. A Canadian through and through. He always thought it was something close to a right for him to head out, regardless of who exactly is driving the boat, and have the opportunity to fish for what "management" has always told him is HIS, and every other Canadian's resource. A resource they supposedly own. Much to his surprise, DFO decided for him that, in fact, the fish actually belong to a select few, not at all by the population as a whole. And as a consequence, Joe, and everyone else who wishes to head out with an experienced person to help them with their fishing adventure, must be penalized for that same DFO decision, and must therefore pad the pocket of a distant fish Broker for the right to take one of their "own" fish home. IMHO, Joe, and every other Canadian has as much right to go out and catch their legal limit, regardless of just who drives the boat for them. Methinks most "Joes" likely agree.

Methinks we can all agree that the economic spin-offs related to sportfishing on our coast are quite substantial. In fact such Communities as Ucluelet, Bamfield, Port Alberni, Renfrew, Port Hardy, Rupert and so many more rely heavily upon recreational fishing tourism to maintain their economic viability. And a great deal of those who head there do so to experience a safe, fun trip under the watchful eyes of an experienced guide. I would hazard a guess that the cumulative impacts of their operations greatly exceed those produced by the commercial sector. But, turn their operations into something that becomes cost prohibitive to all, and it will not simply be their operations that suffer. The ramifications of doing so will be immediate, far reaching, and of course of heavy negative impact to already struggling small Coastal Communities.

We, as Canadians, as Anglers have got to make a decision. Can we set aside our differences for now, and get the message across to DFO that we are not prepared to stand idle by while our access to OUR resources is stripped away for the benefit of a few. Can we stand up as a group to defend what is rightfully ours to share? Or will we buy into divisive tactics directly designed to keep us from forming a United Voice in this regard?
It is of course every individual's choice. Recognize however that You have to make a stand for or against Fair and Equitable Access. Buying (literally) into the suggestion of creating yet another layer of 'commercial fishing" works directly against our collective interests, and so in fact offers support to those that would see us fail in this endeavor.


...with that being said you have to look at the TAC and divide it fairly for all and quit the blame game,thats where the issue lies,but before that there needs to be fish to divide up,we all need to stick together and look after the fish first !

Agreed Weatherby. It should be pointed out though that this is an allocation issue, one of access for those who rightfully own the resource, and not a conservation matter. In Area 2B (BC waters) the overall biomass has actually increased. The reason for the drop in TAC is based upon "exploitable biomass" which is a reflection of individual sizes within the overall population. And while that has slid somewhat, with several strong year classes coming up in the population, the TAC will increase over the next several years.

I still firmly believe that the best course of action would be for the two sectors to join in a United Campaign to ensure the best value for the working fishermen, do away with the non-fishing brokers, and provide for fair and equitable access for the rightful Canadian owners of the resource. Further bickering between us does nothing to further either of our intertwined aspirations in this regard, but together we could prove to be a rather Mighty Voice in the halls on Kent Street. I therefore urge each of you, regardless of what side of the issue you sit on, to get involved and work towards a mutually satisfactory solution.

Cheers,
Nog

[IronNoggin]

Port Hardy Town Hall Meeting

Port Hardy: January 27th (Thursday), 7pm

Quatse River Stewardship Center

[pro 111]

As a sportsfisherman I will not support An increase in quota until the lodges and guides catch is capped.They currently take 69% of the sports allocation they are commercial,without fish they have no clients and make no money.They currently get their share for nothing and want to increase it so that they can continue to expand their business.We are in a period of low Total Allowable Catch,all parties should contribute to ensure the sustainability of the resource.The resident angler is not the problem and it is a mistake to align ourselves with the commercial sports groups.Our intrests are not the same.And please dont give me the line about just facillitating an experience,thats what pimps do.If you make money you are commercial plain and simple.
Exactly , simple and to the point. You hit it bang on. Good to see some of the the non commercial sport fishers seeing through the BS.

[snareman1234]

As a sportsfisherman I will not support An increase in quota until the lodges and guides catch is capped.They currently take 69% of the sports allocation they are commercial,without fish they have no clients and make no money.They currently get their share for nothing and want to increase it so that they can continue to expand their business.We are in a period of low Total Allowable Catch,all parties should contribute to ensure the sustainability of the resource.The resident angler is not the problem and it is a mistake to align ourselves with the commercial sports groups.Our intrests are not the same.And please dont give me the line about just facillitating an experience,thats what pimps do.If you make money you are commercial plain and simple.


Awesome work you guys, lets get the lodge vs sporty war going, that will solve our problem.

Lodges and sporties work together seamlessly where I guide, and there is no contention,

As a whole ( sporties and lodges) should look at commercial allocations, or if not in the mood to point a finger, should atleast stand together.

Seperated we will fall, and the guys blaming the lodges will fall under the same demise

[Spy]

Exactly , simple and to the point. You hit it bang on. Good to see some of the the non commercial sport fishers seeing through the BS.

Don't fall for their BS!!!:twisted: They are married to the Commercials trying to get us to fight between ourselves. Just like our Fisheries & oceans Minister is family of commercial fishermen! The fight is on boys & girls & if we stand together we are going to WIN!
Stand up for our right to catch fish, there are only 500 odd of them & thousands of us We will win this one & more fights to come if we stand strong!:-D:-D
The fight is ON:twisted: & we will not be divided ! :-D

[pro 111]

Iron Noggin, its funny to read your opinions on here . You keep going on about how the sports sector is all the same , and how you are fighting for everyone including myself.
What i really see here is a guy trying to convince everyone that the sports sector is all the same . There are many on here like Keta , that can actually see the real picture. Maybe we should simplify it for all the people that you are so slyly trying to persuade.
1 The commercial halibut fisherman have not grown in numbers.

2 The recreational weekend warriors that are just out to have fun with there family and catch a few fish have not grown in numbers , and according to a recent survey these numbers have gone down in the past 5 years.

3 There is only one sector out of the 3 that has grown dramatically , and this is the commercial sports fishing sector. It is very easy to see where the problem lies . You guys are hard to handle . You keep lying to the general public in order to sustain your own personal financial wellbeing . Even in these years of low abundance . Give us more , we want more , its not fair!! People are getting sick and tired of the BS and guys like yourself are starting to make yourselvs look stupid. You are being judged as we speak and I think the general public is starting to get sick and tired of your merry go round.
Why don't you just find another job to hold you over until the quota goes back up. Thats what most of us commercial guys do.
Your make yourself sound so selfish when you keep wanting more even in these years of low abundance ,even when everyone else has taken a dramatic cut . You would just love to see us halibut guys loose some more quota even though most of us today payed big bucks for the quota. You don't like it that its worth money , but at the same time haven't given it any thought as to why its worth money. Its because we pioneered it . We started managing the fishery with the US . And its through our hard work and the fish buyers marketing that has made this a valuble product , as well as a valuble licence to own. Many got the licence for 10 bucks back in the day that is true . Don't forget the price for halibut back then was 15cents per pound. I will stop Rambling cause I could go on and on. Read this with a little thought and maybe pretend that your in my shoes the next time you reply.
I have one last Question and I think you should answer it honestly for us all to see and read.
If fisheries took 20% of my halibut Quota that I paid for dearly. 35$ per pound to be exact , and said you could have it because I had to much , and your little operation needs it more than mine . They said you now own a peace of the TAC and you can buy and sell it on the open market as you wish. Would you except this offer. YES or NO. Now we all know that your good at explaining yourself so think very carefully when you answer this question as I don't think you can afford to loose any more of your credibility.
Don't lie now !

[pro 111]

Don't fall for their BS!!!:twisted: They are married to the Commercials trying to get us to fight between ourselves. Just like our Fisheries & oceans Minister is family of commercial fishermen! The fight is on boys & girls & if we stand together we are going to WIN!
Stand up for our right to catch fish, there are only 500 odd of them & thousands of us We will win this one & more fights to come if we stand strong!:-D:-D
The fight is ON:twisted: & we will not be divided ! :-D
You obviously run charters!!!

[snareman1234]

pro 111 said (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/member.php?u=8172) "It is very easy to see where the problem lies . You guys are hard to handle . You keep lying to the general public in order to sustain your own personal financial wellbeing . Even in these years of low abundance . Give us more , we want more , its not fair!!" Yeap we can see where the problem lies for sure..

[Sitkaspruce]

. Thats what most of us commercial guys do.

Ahhhh the truth comes out......:mrgreen:

If fisheries took 20% of my halibut Quota that I paid for dearly. 35$ per pound to be exact

and what is your quota so we can times it by $.35 to see how much you actually paid.....and don't lie.

Did you buy this off another of the Slipper Skippers or did you buy this off the Gov back when the original quotas were issued??

And lastly, what if the proposal to to remove only 2% from your quota was to actually happen, what would happen to your lifestyle and well being???

And no I am not a guide or work for a Lodge, I am one of those run of the mill weekend warriors who really like to enjoy a hali or two and likes to see the look on the outlaws face (from Manitoba and are Canadians:wink:) when they catch a hali......

Cheers

SS

[Spy]

You obviously run charters!!!

No Im an Average Joe!!!:-D That loves fishing more than life itself!:-D
Im fighting for the right to fish so that I can take only what I need to feed my family.Im fighting for the right of my children to freely fish the oceans for years to come.

Im not trying to get wealthy off the backs of nature!Im not raping the oceans for self benefit,trying to feed the world.:twisted::twisted:


GREED will be the commercials downfall!
The fish in the oceans belong to all of us not just a chosen few!

Are you or somebody in your family a commercial fisherman? If you can't see the logic in what we are fighting for then you are part of the problem!:twisted: Please don't even reply, I don't really care for your type & don't want to converse with you!In other words go Pound Sand!

[pro 111]

No Im an Average Joe!!!:-D That loves fishing more than life itself!:-D
Im fighting for the right to fish so that I can take only what I need to feed my family.Im fighting for the right of my children to freely fish the oceans for years to come.

Im not trying to get wealthy off the backs of nature!Im not raping the oceans for self benefit,trying to feed the world.:twisted::twisted:


GREED will be the commercials downfall!
The fish in the oceans belong to all of us not just a chosen few!

Are you or somebody in your family a commercial fisherman? If you can't see the logic in what we are fighting for then you are part of the problem!:twisted: Please don't even reply, I don't really care for your type & don't want to converse with you!In other words go Pound Sand!
Greed is when the Lodge at Tasu had to move 60 miles north up to Hippa because they ran out of bottom fish .
Pound Sand , sounds like sporty talk. Is that what you call halibut fishing.

[Spy]

Pro iii I see you are trying to put allot of thought into your next post!:twisted:I can actually hear you compiling the lies,:wink: that are about to come out of your ass!

[Spy]

Greed is when the Lodge at Tasu had to move 60 miles north up to Hippa because they ran out of bottom fish .
Pound Sand , sounds like sporty talk. Is that what you call halibut fishing.

What are your kids going to say once you & your Buddies have finished RAPING the ocean! :twisted:What lies are you going to tell them?:twisted:

[Spy]

Greed is when the Lodge at Tasu had to move 60 miles north up to Hippa because they ran out of bottom fish .
Pound Sand , sounds like sporty talk. Is that what you call halibut fishing.

Pounding sand is what we will all be doing once you & your commercial buddies have caught all the Halibut. The only true thing I think you have typed tonight!
Time to find another Job, your days as a commercial fisherman are numbered!:-D

[22savage]

WOW a couple of interesting post there spy. If you could please explain how the commerical halibut fleet is going to wipe out the halibut fishery I would be interested in reading any FACTS that you have to support your last couple of posts . Thanks 22 savage.

[Spy]

WOW a couple of interesting post there spy. If you could please explain how the commerical halibut fleet is going to wipe out the halibut fishery I would be interested in reading any FACTS that you have to support your last couple of posts . Thanks 22 savage.

GREED GREED GREED GREED

[Keta1969]

Some of the rehtoric on here is unbelievable.The halibut fishery and the International Halibut Commission are recognised worldwide by many countries and enviromental groups as been extremely well managed and sustainable.Commercial fishermen are not raping the ocean or wiping out the halibut.The fishery is a model others would like to emulate.As stated earlier we are in a period where the T.A.C. has been lowered to ensure sustainability.I know i'm not the only sportsfisherman who is concerned about the lodges and guides share of the catch and until I see some sort of plan or commitment to capping their growth at my expense I'll not join this fight.I think one thing we could all agree on is limiting access to halibut been caught by non-Canadian sports boats.We can't fish over there so why do we allow it in our waters?Eventually with proper managment the T.A.C. will start to rise again when stock abundance warrants it.Once again we shouldn't be lining up with the lodges on this one ,they want to grow a business and we want to be able to go get a halibut once and awhile at any time of year.Some respect for others views should also be shown on this thread.

[Weatherby Fan]

GREED GREED GREED GREED

Spy
You need to take a chill pill buddy LOL
The commercial halibut fishermen as alway have been been controlled by IPHC and DFO and if the stocks don`t sustain a fishery they don`t fish simple as that,no different for Salmon,Herring or any other commercial sector,I ran a seine boat for a few years,longlined lots of halibut,fished blackcod and a few others, I spent alot of years on Halibut charters and understand the lifecycle and stocks better than most and the fisherman were the first ones not to fish if there was a concern about stocks,people should get there facts straight b4 jumping all over one sector or another.
I`m sure things will work out for all sectors as they have in the past.
Infighting on HBC won`t help alot !

Weatherby Fan

Iron Noggin
if you need some info as to why a certain stock size of Halibut is low on this coast PM me and I`ll fill you in.

[22savage]

so no FACTS then.

[Johnnybear]

I have a couple of questions for the commercial guys:-D.

1) If you (88%) have it so bad like you say and we (12%) have it so good why not sell your licenses, quota, etc. and start a charter business or lodge?

2) Alot of you complain about the costs of camera's and monitors (actual person on board to monitor the fishery). Alot of folks would like to know why this has become manditory in the commercial fleet?

Just some questions is all:mrgreen:.

[Weatherby Fan]

I have a couple of questions for the commercial guys:-D.

1) If you (88%) have it so bad like you say and we (12%) have it so good why not sell your licenses, quota, etc. and start a charter business or lodge?

2) Alot of you complain about the costs of camera's and monitors (actual person on board to monitor the fishery). Alot of folks would like to know why this has become manditory in the commercial fleet?

Just some questions is all:mrgreen:.

I don`t fish commercially anymore so maybe a licence holder can answer your 1st question better
no 2
I would think they dont have to pay a camera daily or feed it and it doesn`t get seasick,so there a better option than an observer lol
and I would think it`s to monitor bycatch and how they handle undersized fish that they have to release in a safe manner,and it can be done as I have done it.
On charter we brought all undersized halibut aboard unhooked it measured it weighed and released safely time and time again !

[Spy]

so no FACTS then.

Are you kidding!:evil: 88% of the quota!:confused:I see you are also a commercial fisherman, that explains it all!:twisted:You are fishing, sorry I will ref-raise that, RAPING the ocean for self benefit Money$$$$$ to feed the world, our fish for self gain!:confused:When we catch only what we need to feed our family's!

[303Brit]

Spy
You need to take a chill pill buddy LOL
The commercial halibut fishermen as alway have been been controlled by IPHC and DFO and if the stocks don`t sustain a fishery they don`t fish simple as that,no different for Salmon,Herring or any other commercial sector,I ran a seine boat for a few years,longlined lots of halibut,fished blackcod and a few others, I spent alot of years on Halibut charters and understand the lifecycle and stocks better than most and the fisherman were the first ones not to fish if there was a concern about stocks,people should get there facts straight b4 jumping all over one sector or another.
I`m sure things will work out for all sectors as they have in the past.
Infighting on HBC won`t help alot !

Weatherby Fan

I have faith in the IPHC, its DFO thats lost my faith. Since they didn't feel the need to keep track of our catch last year and let us blow our portion of the TAC. Now feel they are justified in penalizing us becuase they shat the bed.

303

[Kirby]

2) Alot of you complain about the costs of camera's and monitors (actual person on board to monitor the fishery). Alot of folks would like to know why this has become manditory in the commercial fleet?

Just some questions is all:mrgreen:.

I'll let the first one go, but I worked on a commercial Halibut fishing boat. Its a seriously disturbing fishery. They don't like observers because then the world might find out how much this fishery is a rape and pillage industry.

[Spy]

so no FACTS then.

The cod fishery collapsed because of the rape of the stocks by commercial fisherman!:evil: Not the sports fishermen!

[Spy]

I'll let the first one go, but I worked on a commercial Halibut fishing boat. Its a seriously disturbing fishery. They don't like observers because then the world might find out how much this fishery is a rape and pillage industry.

Thanks for backing up my statements Kirby!

[Johnnybear]

On charter we brought all undersized halibut aboard unhooked it measured it weighed and released safely time and time again !

There is no size limit on sport caught halibut:?. If you guys set your own limit kudos to you:-D.

If you posted that to ill inform the public like many do during this discussion then shame on you:cry:.

[22savage]

yes I agree foriegn over fishing off shore ,not the inshore fishery

[Johnnybear]

I'll let the first one go, but I worked on a commercial Halibut fishing boat. Its a seriously disturbing fishery. They don't like observers because then the world might find out how much this fishery is a rape and pillage industry.

Thank you Kirby for your post it means alot:wink:.

This whole thing is coming into the media now and facts are starting to come out of the closet so to speak. Certain folks don't like it too much.

I am all for recording catches on my license of all species of fish that I catch. I will submit the data at the end of the season so that the powers to be will use it to help the conservation of this great PUBLIC resource.

[Weatherby Fan]

There is no size limit on sport caught halibut:?. If you guys set your own limit kudos to you:-D.

If you posted that to ill inform the public like many do during this discussion then shame on you:cry:.

No not trying to illinform the public at all,when I fished 32inches was the cutoff line anything under that was released.It was law.
There are some rules for those commercial bandits you know !:-D

Any more question !

[22savage]

still no facts show me any info you have that the commmerical halibut fishery is not sustainable

[22savage]

Anybody from the sky is falling club got any facts

[Johnnybear]

No not trying to illinform the public at all,when I fished 32inches was the cutoff line anything under that was released.It was law.
There are some rules for those commercial bandits you know !:-D

Any more question !

You said when on "charter" so I assumed sport fishing reg's:wink::-D.

[Spy]

still no facts show me any info you have that the commmerical halibut fishery is not sustainable

Why was the sport fishing quota cut from two fish to One?:confused:

[Weatherby Fan]

I'll let the first one go, but I worked on a commercial Halibut fishing boat. Its a seriously disturbing fishery. They don't like observers because then the world might find out how much this fishery is a rape and pillage industry.

I would never stand by and tell you it`s a perfect fishery by any means but Ive seen alot worse,
It may depend on who you worked with and there level of proffesionalism,
on how they handled bycatch,I really have to disagree with your rape and pillage theory.

As for the Cameras or obsevers on board commercial vessels again I think they would prefer cameras as they dont have to pay and or feed them and they don`t get seasick,the trouble with all that stuff is they would make the commercial guys pay for the observers and or cameras which was the biggest bitch as I recall !

[Johnnybear]

Anybody from the sky is falling club got any facts

I'm not from the sky is falling club 22 savage:-D. I just wish some of the original gifted quota holders get some taken away. You can only win the lottery so many years in row you know:-D. It's a messy business I know but justice will be served. If it means some high up positions in DFO served on a platter then all the better:twisted:.

[Spy]

still no facts show me any info you have that the commmerical halibut fishery is not sustainable

Why are you raping the oceans to feed the world?:confused:

[Johnnybear]

I understand what Spy is putting across. To all sportsfisherman, conservation of the resource is the first priority before PROFIT.

Land based food is a controlled factor with human beings. We haven't fully exploited that situation yet. For us to squander the ocean like the world fleet has been doing over the last couple of decades is a total waste of our last great RESERVE of a world food source.

Something that I read about and I have been thinking about the last few years.

I have lived on VI my entire life and I don't take any of it for granted. I like to think local for my food. Some call me selfish for thinking that I don't care if Billy Bob and Mary Jo in some Southwestern State get to eat Halibut. I don't really care because as far as I'm concerned they can keep eating their catfish or other species of fish that is local to them. If they have commercially exploited them to extinction that is their problem.

I am just another citizen of Canada that want's the opportunity to feed my family. I am not some wanker that got 100 ton's of quota given to me and sits on my ass and laughs at the rest of the fleet (working commercial fisherman that I lease to and sportsfisherman).

[Kirby]

I would never stand by and tell you it`s a perfect fishery by any means but Ive seen alot worse,
It may depend on who you worked with and there level of proffesionalism,
on how they handled bycatch,I really have to disagree with your rape and pillage theory.

As for the Cameras or obsevers on board commercial vessels again I think they would prefer cameras as they dont have to pay and or feed them and they don`t get seasick,the trouble with all that stuff is they would make the commercial guys pay for the observers and or cameras which was the biggest bitch as I recall !

Long Lining Halibut is litteraly laying out several miles of line baiting hooks every 10'-15' and letting it sit for hours. Ya sure we "targeted" halibut but the reality was we pulled up thousands of pounds of by catch that was dead due swim bladders, I was sitting on the deck watching a river of dead floating carcases drift behind the boat.

By catch that is recorded is one thing, by catch that is caught its another. The reason they like cameras is they can be turned off. I've worked with several commercial fishermen and no one was better than the other.

[Sleep Robber]

The cod fishery collapsed because of the rape of the stocks by commercial fisherman!:evil: Not the sports fishermen!

Go away buddy, your lack of knowledge on the halibut fishery is nil, and conventional hook and line didn't wipe out the cod stocks, trawls did, by every nation that sent a boat to the banks, how foolish, what are you 12 ??

[Sleep Robber]

Long Lining Halibut is litteraly laying out several miles of line baiting hooks every 10'-15' and letting it sit for hours. Ya sure we "targeted" halibut but the reality was we pulled up thousands of pounds of by catch that was dead due swim bladders, I was sitting on the deck watching a river of dead floating carcases drift behind the boat.

By catch that is recorded is one thing, by catch that is caught its another. The reason they like cameras is they can be turned off. I've worked with several commercial fishermen and no one was better than the other.

You might have seen the odd pumpkin patch behind some boats, but not today, we move if we don't have the rockfish quota to retain it. Turning off cameras eh ?? not likely buddy, unless your a complete idiot and want your boat seized, ever heard of the port monitor, who verifies the numbers, so that Archipelago can see if your breaking the rules ?? Some of you guys that think you know so much about a long line fishery are a complete joke. But i must admit, it's funny to read :-D

[303Brit]

still no facts show me any info you have that the commmerical halibut fishery is not sustainable

IPHC deems it is sustainable, for most that is not the argument. The argument is that DFO, is unfairly splitting Canada's allotment.

303

[Kirby]

You might have seen the odd pumpkin patch behind some boats, but not today, we move if we don't have the rockfish quota to retain it. Turning off cameras eh ?? not likely buddy, unless your a complete idiot and want your boat seized, ever heard of the port monitor, who verifies the numbers, so that Archipelago can see if your breaking the rules ?? Some of you guys that think you know so much about a long line fishery are a complete joke. But i must admit, it's funny to read :-D

Haven't stepped foot on a commercial boat in about 10 years but I do remember talking with at least one skipper who would discuss turning it on, setting 2 lines, turn it off set one, pull the 2 on camera and one off. Good way of bumping up his bait catch. Perhaps the cameras have been updated, if so good.

I seemed to never see a boat that actually bought enough bait, instead by-catch worked.

I worked the boats I've seen what I saw and in my opinion the halibut commercial fisher is a complete rape and pillage, perhaps its changed but I doubt it.

Again just my observations.

[Johnnybear]

Haven't stepped foot on a commercial boat in about 10 years but I do remember talking with at least one skipper who would discuss turning it on, setting 2 lines, turn it off set one, pull the 2 on camera and one off. Good way of bumping up his bait catch. Perhaps the cameras have been updated, if so good.

I seemed to never see a boat that actually bought enough bait, instead by-catch worked.

I worked the boats I've seen what I saw and in my opinion the halibut commercial fisher is a complete rape and pillage, perhaps its changed but I doubt it.

Again just my observations.

Again thank you for your post Kirby it means alot big time:wink::-D.

When I read reports of wastage in the commercial halibut fishery in the 14% range I think some bells should be ringing:evil:.

[RustyRipper]

Haven't stepped foot on a commercial boat in about 10 years but I do remember talking with at least one skipper who would discuss turning it on, setting 2 lines, turn it off set one, pull the 2 on camera and one off. Good way of bumping up his bait catch. Perhaps the cameras have been updated, if so good.

I seemed to never see a boat that actually bought enough bait, instead by-catch worked.

I worked the boats I've seen what I saw and in my opinion the halibut commercial fisher is a complete rape and pillage, perhaps its changed but I doubt it.

Again just my observations.


Using one example to describe an entire fishery is very inacurate information. That's like having a mechanic rip you off and then saying all mechanics are crooks. people are people. you, as well as I and every other hunter hate when the media call poachers "hunters". well its the same thing, you obviously fished with someone who had low or no morals and without a respect for the fish or the law. Please don't group all commercial fishermen in that same boat and say they're raping the ocean. you want to see raping try a trip on a dragger. In comparison the longlining fleet is a very clean fishery and well managed. As far as those wasted rockfish you saw? 6 years ago the integrated fishing program was introduced making it mandatory to keep all rockfish and it comes off rockfish quota which you must possess to even fish halibut or you have to lease it. That also goes for dogfish, lingcod, blackcod etc. its all covered. The cameras are not controllable, your skipper was telling you a yarn. Firstly the camera boxes are padlocked and they can tell if they've been tampered with and a skipper can be seriously fined. In fact even if there is a discrepancy between the skipper's count and the final count by the dock validator (who is mandatory and also paid by the skipper) then a more thorough review of the video happens at the skippers expense. I did a trip once where our count was off by 3 fish and there was 1 undersize and they had to go through the video again (10 days worth of video) and it cost the skipper $8,000. belive me longliners are not aloud to rape the ocean, it is probably the most controlled and monitored fishery on this coast and maybe in the world. before you anti-commercial guys start typing you should think about what your saying and ask yourself if you actually know what you're talking about or if you're just talking out of your ass and more from emotion than knowledge or even sense. do us all a favor and do some research and don't be so judgemental towards something you have no idea about.

[Johnnybear]

Does anyone have any reports or numbers about how much is spent (not just dollars but personal or volunteer time) on enhancement and conservation of Halibut by either commercial or sport?

[Spy]

Go away buddy, your lack of knowledge on the halibut fishery is nil, and conventional hook and line didn't wipe out the cod stocks, trawls did, by every nation that sent a boat to the banks, how foolish, what are you 12 ??

Yea & the trawlers are commercial You dumb ass!!!! Conventional hook & line means 1 or 2 hooks Per line Not a couple hundred!
How Is it possible that 400 odd people can own 88% of the fishery???:confused::confused:

[dryflyguy57]

Spy this was a pretty civil thread until you showed up .

[Johnnybear]

Spy this was a pretty civil thread until you showed up .

He's not the only one:-D. Spy and Sleep Robber should sit down together for a beer:wink:.

[Spy]

Spy this was a pretty civil thread until you showed up .

Yea the truth hurts!! :twisted:

I will leave this thread alone, I had my say! :wink:

[dryflyguy57]

Right on , Good news !

[Nathaniel Poe]

Private citizens need first crack at fish!

[Johnnybear]

Using one example to describe an entire fishery is very inacurate information. That's like having a mechanic rip you off and then saying all mechanics are crooks. people are people. you, as well as I and every other hunter hate when the media call poachers "hunters". well its the same thing, you obviously fished with someone who had low or no morals and without a respect for the fish or the law. Please don't group all commercial fishermen in that same boat and say they're raping the ocean. you want to see raping try a trip on a dragger. In comparison the longlining fleet is a very clean fishery and well managed. As far as those wasted rockfish you saw? 6 years ago the integrated fishing program was introduced making it mandatory to keep all rockfish and it comes off rockfish quota which you must possess to even fish halibut or you have to lease it. That also goes for dogfish, lingcod, blackcod etc. its all covered. The cameras are not controllable, your skipper was telling you a yarn. Firstly the camera boxes are padlocked and they can tell if they've been tampered with and a skipper can be seriously fined. In fact even if there is a discrepancy between the skipper's count and the final count by the dock validator (who is mandatory and also paid by the skipper) then a more thorough review of the video happens at the skippers expense. I did a trip once where our count was off by 3 fish and there was 1 undersize and they had to go through the video again (10 days worth of video) and it cost the skipper $8,000. belive me longliners are not aloud to rape the ocean, it is probably the most controlled and monitored fishery on this coast and maybe in the world. before you anti-commercial guys start typing you should think about what your saying and ask yourself if you actually know what you're talking about or if you're just talking out of your ass and more from emotion than knowledge or even sense. do us all a favor and do some research and don't be so judgemental towards something you have no idea about.

Re read his post and tell us were he has painted the "whole" industry with the same brush. Thanks for your rant but IMO your way out of line (no pun intended):?.

[Kirby]

Rustyripper, so all by-catch is retained? Cameras are running 24/7? All boats equiped with them at all times? Whats the punishment for overloading on By-catch?

I do hope the industry has changed from where it was when I left it.

Kirby

[Sleep Robber]

Yea & the trawlers are commercial You dumb ass!!!! Conventional hook & line means 1 or 2 hooks Per line Not a couple hundred!
How Is it possible that 400 odd people can own 88% of the fishery???:confused::confused:

Spy, I've worked on off shore Deep Sea Trawlers and "CONVENTIONAL GEAR" longline boats all my life, What your saying is ridiculous. You say conventional means one or two hooks not 200 ?? FYI, conventional gear means that the ganjuns with the hooks are fixed to the beckets, ol' school way, not snap gear. I told you you didn't know squat !!!!!!!!!!!!! And Trawlers are pretty dam good when it comes to targeting certain species. We know what depths species live in fyi. You's think that we just go out and set our trawls "hoping to kill everything in it's path, how juvenile of people, it goes to show that unless you actually know something "meaning done it" your better off shutting your mouth, cause you could end up looking like a complete ******, ...................

[Sleep Robber]

He's not the only one:-D. Spy and Sleep Robber should sit down together for a beer:wink:.

I don't drink, maybe "you" should go give SPY a hug :mrgreen:

[RustyRipper]

Rustyripper, so all by-catch is retained? Cameras are running 24/7? All boats equiped with them at all times? Whats the punishment for overloading on By-catch?

I do hope the industry has changed from where it was when I left it.

Kirby

Yes all bycatch is either retained or at least covered by quota as a mortality. Rockfish must be retained however. cameras run anytime the hydraulics are running and 15 minutes after they are shut off. or anytime the drum is spinning even if hydros are off (setting gear). a vessel is not legally able to fish without either having a camera equipped or having a human observer on board. all these expenses mind you, come out of the fishermans pocket. cameras are 50 bucks a day to rent and I'm not 100 percent on the price today but a few years ago they were $12,000 to buy. believe me it is not nearly as easy to fish halibut commercially. overloading on bycatch does not happen very often as most good fishermen know how to avoid it because they know when and where the fish are. when it does happen however, the fisherman has a small window of time to track down some quota to cover it, if none is available then a fine will insue. and from everything else I've been saying, do you think it would be light? I think not.

[RustyRipper]

Re read his post and tell us were he has painted the "whole" industry with the same brush. Thanks for your rant but IMO your way out of line (no pun intended)




By catch that is recorded is one thing, by catch that is caught its another. The reason they like cameras is they can be turned off. I've worked with several commercial fishermen and no one was better than the other.


Right there ol johnny bear...


and go back a few posts for this one...



I'll let the first one go, but I worked on a commercial Halibut fishing boat. Its a seriously disturbing fishery. They don't like observers because then the world might find out how much this fishery is a rape and pillage industry.

[303Brit]

Yes all bycatch is either retained or at least covered by quota as a mortality. Rockfish must be retained however. cameras run anytime the hydraulics are running and 15 minutes after they are shut off. or anytime the drum is spinning even if hydros are off (setting gear). a vessel is not legally able to fish without either having a camera equipped or having a human observer on board. all these expenses mind you, come out of the fishermans pocket. cameras are 50 bucks a day to rent and I'm not 100 percent on the price today but a few years ago they were $12,000 to buy. believe me it is not nearly as easy to fish halibut commercially. overloading on bycatch does not happen very often as most good fishermen know how to avoid it because they know when and where the fish are. when it does happen however, the fisherman has a small window of time to track down some quota to cover it, if none is available then a fine will insue. and from everything else I've been saying, do you think it would be light? I think not.


So just so I understand, it's not Kosher for Kirby to "paint the whole fishery" with one example, but it is ok for you to defend it with one? Kirby atested to things "HE" saw when he was a commercial fisherman, granted he gave dated info from a decade ago (I understand things change) but you yourself have admitted your not sure what the current rate for a camera is. So are you straight up calling Kriby a liar cause you don't like the light shed by "his" experience as a commie? Or have you fished with every single commercial fisherman out there???

Can you explain the mortality quota?? Does this perhaps cover off the aforemention river a dead carcasses??? If all quota goes by the pound and a ship has a large mortality quota then it would seem to me that it is quite possible for Kirby's account to be true.

As for the added costs of camera and observers. Obvisously somebody decided that commercial fisherman needed to be monitored. If everybody in the commercial fisheries was on the straight, then why would you guys need extra monitoring???????? You do lead me to believe you have a reasonable understanding of the cost of the observers, cameras and dock validators, so I'll chaulk that up to the cost of doing business. Again nobody forced you to be a commercial fisherman!


Realistically I have no interest in arguing with the commies about the rape and pilage theory. Just curious about a couple things and pointed out a couple things I noticed.

I am also curious about the 14% wastage that Johnnybear mentioned earlier???


303

[IronNoggin]

Sheesh! http://bestsmileys.com/wow/4.gif
Wander off for a few days chasing steelhead, and all hell breaks loose!
Thankfully the many meetings that have been held Island-wide with both sides present haven't degenerated into this type of acrimony!
Gonna try to get it back on track...



1 The commercial halibut fisherman have not grown in numbers.

2 The recreational weekend warriors that are just out to have fun with there family and catch a few fish have not grown in numbers , and according to a recent survey these numbers have gone down in the past 5 years.

3 There is only one sector out of the 3 that has grown dramatically , and this is the commercial sports fishing sector.

I did not realize you were a commercial fisherman when you initially replied. With that information in hand, it makes your stance much more understandable.

1. Commercial fishermen, cannot grow in numbers due to the quota management system under DFO. What has occurred is that many less of them that acquired the original quotas actually fish these days. This is but one of the flaws in the system that allows quota owners to become Brokers rather than working for a living.

2. The "weekend warriors" as you have termed them that target on halibut HAVE increased in numbers since the late 90's. Your suggestion to the contrary not withstanding. The advent of better boats, better electronics, better fishing gear and the understanding of how and where to target on them has grown substantially since that time. And correspondingly, so have those who choose to partake in the fishery.

3. The guide and lodge operations did follow the same course as the Average Anglers in growth since the 90's. That plateaued about 6 or 7 years ago, and the "growth" has been on a downtrend ever since. Today, there is no sign of this "explosive growth" you refer to, in fact the opposite is quite true. Many lodges have closed their doors, and many guides have left that enterprise in the recent past. I am not surprised that you (and others associated with the commercial industry) continuously bring this one up. It does speak rather well to your sector's prevelant mindset when amongst your greatest tactics is to drive the wedge of division as deep as possible amongst the recreational anglers though :wink:
I, and others, have well addressed just why the guides and lodges are part and parcel of the recreational sector, so I don't feel the need to repeat that now. Easy enough to find, have a look back through the early pages of this thread...


You don't like it that its worth money , but at the same time haven't given it any thought as to why its worth money.

Actually I well understand why the present quota lease/purchase rates are exorbitantly high. Any "commodity" (for that is what the current quota management system has made this resource) of limited quantity will command whatever price is set by those who effectively "own" it. In this case, the majority is "owned" by Brokers, not fishers. It is in the best interest of those Brokers to maintain the highest cash flow possible for such ownership, and they are largely responsible for what you and everyone else involved has to pay for access. This is a direct manifestation of the flaws within the quota management system, and is neither of benefit to working fishermen nor anyone else not in the luxurious position of owning quota that they do not fish themselves.


I have one last Question and I think you should answer it honestly for us all to see and read.
If fisheries took 20% of my halibut Quota that I paid for dearly. 35$ per pound to be exact , and said you could have it because I had to much , and your little operation needs it more than mine . They said you now own a peace of the TAC and you can buy and sell it on the open market as you wish. Would you except this offer. YES or NO.

I actually can honestly say I would not accept at this time. I am at that point in my life where principles are of more significance to me than money. Over time I have held various positions that produced a lot of income, and back then, I might have readily accepted. I am no longer in that mad rat race, and in fact deliberately chose fields to work my final years in that provide a great deal in terms of satisfaction, albeit rather little in the way of income. My choice, and one I continue to be happy with.

So, were I to accept, it would go directly against my personal principles that Common Property Resources should NOT be reduced to Privately Traded Commodities for the benefit of a few. Again, it is my personal position that money should not govern what we perceive as "wrong" or "right". And that my friend, is very much the truth.

More than a little misinformation over the past few pages...

The Commercial halibut fishery is NOT a "rape and pillage" fishery. In fact it is one of the best monitored and managed fisheries in the world. Accountability is through the ceiling, with the advent of the Integrated Groundfish Program, the serious matter of by-catch has been directly addressed and is now accounted for. As a consequence this is now one of the 'cleanest' fisheries in the world.

Conservation is well addressed via the working of the IPHC. They, rightfully so, are recognized as one of the very best when it comes to terms of sustainable management.

Niether of these are the issue. What is revolves around DFO's flawed system of quota management. The current system actually penalizes working fishermen to the benefit of a few select absentee owners, privatizes the vast majority of the resource, and denies fair and equitable access to the rightful owners (all Canadian Citizens). There is exactly where the real issue lies.

Revamping this system could well provide for increased access for those who actually fish it, maintain a sufficient pool to deal with by-catch issues, and provide for increased Public Access. IMHO all of these are points that could well benefit both sides of the equation, and is something we all, together, should be striving for. The continuation of bickering between the two user groups compounds the problem, and at the end of the day, contribute nothing to it's solution. Time to stop the finger pointing Gentz, and get on with the REAL task at hand! Working towards quota management reform for the betterment of all.

American fishing forays in Canadian waters is a related, but sideline matter. Personally I believe we should curtail their access, as they have done so directly with Canadian access to anything in thier marine waters. Tit for tat as it were. Although aware of the matter, foot-dragging on the part of DFO and the Federal Government is more than prevalent due to "political concerns". Read, they simply are afraid of pissing off Big Brother. We're working on that one as well, but one battle at a time. History has well proven that opening too many fronts at once usually preordains the victory to the opposition.

As I noted previously, the best course of action for all of us would be to band together for the betterment of all. Infighting amongst and between our sectors creates dissension and very little more. The War ain't between us, rather it is with DFO.

Cheers,
Nog

[RustyRipper]

So just so I understand, it's not Kosher for Kirby to "paint the whole fishery" with one example, but it is ok for you to defend it with one? Kirby atested to things "HE" saw when he was a commercial fisherman, granted he gave dated info from a decade ago (I understand things change) but you yourself have admitted your not sure what the current rate for a camera is. So are you straight up calling Kriby a liar cause you don't like the light shed by "his" experience as a commie? Or have you fished with every single commercial fisherman out there???

Can you explain the mortality quota?? Does this perhaps cover off the aforemention river a dead carcasses??? If all quota goes by the pound and a ship has a large mortality quota then it would seem to me that it is quite possible for Kirby's account to be true.

As for the added costs of camera and observers. Obvisously somebody decided that commercial fisherman needed to be monitored. If everybody in the commercial fisheries was on the straight, then why would you guys need extra monitoring???????? You do lead me to believe you have a reasonable understanding of the cost of the observers, cameras and dock validators, so I'll chaulk that up to the cost of doing business. Again nobody forced you to be a commercial fisherman!



303


I think you misunderstood my post. I was not defending the fishermen themselves with what I said, I was defending the fishery. As I said, humans will be humans and there are good ones and bad ones. You cannot sit there and tell me that all recreational fishermen abide by the rules and only take only what they need. you and I both know that is bull. That goes for anything by the way not just fishing. I was simply stating the laws that are in place to control the fishery and the fines and penalties that keep people from breaking them, or at least reduce its occurance. You may have your ideas of what it's all about but you may be very surprised if you knew the reality of it.

[303Brit]

I think you misunderstood my post. I was not defending the fishermen themselves with what I said, I was defending the fishery. As I said, humans will be humans and there are good ones and bad ones. You cannot sit there and tell me that all recreational fishermen abide by the rules and only take only what they need. you and I both know that is bull. That goes for anything by the way not just fishing. I was simply stating the laws that are in place to control the fishery and the fines and penalties that keep people from breaking them, or at least reduce its occurance. You may have your ideas of what it's all about but you may be very surprised if you knew the reality of it.


Point taken human are humans, the fishery is however operated within and controlled by humans ;). Did I ever mention anything about rec fisherman only taking what they needed??

Can you please explain the mortality quota?? Since your only defending the fishery. Or maybe enlighten me as to the reason cameras, and observers were added instead of just dock validators?????

303

[RustyRipper]

Point taken human are humans, the fishery is however operated within and controlled by humans ;). Did I ever mention anything about rec fisherman only taking what they needed??

Can you please explain the mortality quota?? Since your only defending the fishery. Or maybe enlighten me as to the reason cameras, and observers were added instead of just dock validators?????

303

You may not have said rec fishermen only take what they need, but do not judge unless you are willing to be judged.

Mortality quota is not a specific quota. To cover mortalities, one must attain in one way or another (owning or leasing) quota of whichever species one would acquire as by-catch. Quite often fishermen will trade one type of quota for another to cover each other. This way there can neverbe any excess bycatch caught. If you catch all your yellow eye quota for example and you can't find anymore and you're still getting into them, you can't fish until you can cover your overages, regardless if you caught your halibut quota or not. And so people don't target these bycatch species without that particular license, there are limits to what you can keep regardless of wether or not you have the quota to cover it. For example if you have an L tab (halibut license) and you are fishing halibut, if you have the quota you can also keep blackcod as incidental bycatch, however you are only aloud 15% of your total catch to be blackcod. Same goes if you have a K tab (blackcod) and want to keep halibut. Im not going to go on and on but you get the idea.

Cameras and observers have been around for some time but have been mandatory for the last 6 years. They were introduced because of the growing concerns with rockfish stocks. DFO had become aware of the bycatch problem and the only way to regulate it was to enforce it however they could. Cameras or observers where the only way they figured they could do this. Dockside validation will make sure nobody goes over their quota, but it can't regulate what happens at sea. However this is now behind us and shows how this fishery has been and is going in the right direction.

Now that some of you now have a bit of knowledge of "the other side" maybe we can get back to the issue at hand and refrain from pointing fingers and slandering other people's industries and livelyhoods.

[Sleep Robber]

Or maybe enlighten me as to the reason cameras, and observers were added instead of just dock validators?????

303

"Here's some enlightenment for ya, just so you don't think the only reason they have observers is to spy on fishermen" :roll:

At Sea Observer and Monitoring Services

Archipelago has been a leader in the provision of At Sea Services since 1985. During this time, Archipelago has been intrinsically involved with the development and implementation of numerous Commercial Monitoring Programs and Scientific Research Surveys. Highlights of these programs include:

Technical staff with over 25,000 days of at sea experience collecting fisheries catch and biological data.
Extensive involvement with the development of customized onboard catch and biological sampling procedures.
Specialized training, procedural manuals, and the provision of equipment required for the collection and reporting of both catch and biological fisheries data.
Customized data collection, verification, analysis, and reporting.
Customized electronic data entry, verification and analysis.
Timely collection, verification and delivery of biological samples.
Production of detailed cruise reports and program summaries.
And to think, some people think they actually know what happens aboard a commercial fishing vessel.:evil:

[22savage]

17% of the commerical halibut licences and individual quotas are desingated to first nations bands and tribal councils. BC commerical fishermen have seen their allowable catch levels (and incomes) reduced by aproximately 43% since 2006. The vast majority (69%)of the recational halibut catch is from the lodge and charter vessel sector(for profit).The number of canadians holding bc tidal water recreational fishing licences has declined significantly over the past 15 years, both in absolute terms and as a percentage of the population. JUST SOME FACTS

[22savage]

In BC the recreational halibut has limits of one halibut per day and two in possession(there is no annual limit) and the fishery was open for 260 days in 2010.

[22savage]

[QUOTE=22savage;844259]17% of the commerical halibut licences and individual quotas are desingated to first nations bands and tribal councils

These first nation economic opportunities and treaty entitlements are part of the commerical allocation

[22savage]

The asserertion that the 2011 recreational halibut season will close in june or july is unfounded. A review of recent historic recational catch data clearly shows that at the present harvest and effort levels ,and current daily and possesssion limits , a june or july closure would not occur.

[22savage]

The Commercial halibut fishery is NOT a rape and pillage fishery. In fact it is one of the best monitored and managed fisheries in the world. Accountability is through the ceiling, with the advent of the Integrated Groundfish Program, the serious matter of by-catch has been directly addressed and is now accounted for. As a consequence this is now one of the 'cleanest' fisheries in the world

Thanks for posting the FACTS 22 Savage

[IronNoggin]

Thanks for posting the FACTS 22 Savage

Always do 22. Several of yours however I could question (facts that is) but I'll leave them... for now... :wink:

UPDATE:

Kitimat now online: http://fightforhalibut.wordpress.com/

Meetings in Pitt Meadows, Maple Ridge and Kitimat coming soon. Details to be announced early next week: http://www.bchalibut.org/?page_id=204

BC Coalition Website HACKED and forced to shut down. New site at: http://www.bchalibut.org/

DFO delays Recreational Halibut Opening:

Dear Friends,
We learned this afternoon that DFO has chosen to delay the recreational halibut fishery until government decides the future disposition of our common property resource.
Efforts are ramping up and more letters are coming in daily...your efforts are paying off.

"Insider" information suggests the Halibut issue has now been passed on to the PM's office from DFO (running away from the matter once again?)

Several MP's and MLA's now petitioning the government to DEAL with the matter Swiftly and Fairly: http://www.sfibc.com/?page_id=164

Full and half page ads in several major newspapers being run by the commercial sector. All to date have contained serious misinformation.

It seems the letter writing / meeting campaign is making a difference. The pressure continues to find and implement an Equitable decision.

This is YOUR Access on the line here Folks, and WILL set precedence for ongoing (and upcoming) discussions of the privatization of many marine resources (crabs and prawns now under "negotiation"). If this concerns you, your letters of support would be sincerely appreciated!

Cheers,
Nog

[303Brit]

Thanks Rustyripper, Sleep Robber, 22 for some numbers. If you don't mind provding the links I would love to read the rest of the info some time.

All that aside, I still believe the rec fishing community is getting a bit of a raw deal on the split. The fact that our season was 260 days last year had alot to do with DFO letting us overun our TAC . So combine the fact that they intened on cutting us short to compensate for their Fack up last year, and the overall TAC reduction ;) When you add that all up were looking at a shortened season. Unless my basic reasoning skills and DFO's track record are both way off ;)

303

[Sleep Robber]

Thanks Rustyripper, Sleep Robber, 22 for some numbers. If you don't mind provding the links I would love to read the rest of the info some time.

All that aside, I still believe the rec fishing community is getting a bit of a raw deal on the split. The fact that our season was 260 days last year had alot to do with DFO letting us overun our TAC . So combine the fact that they intened on cutting us short to compensate for their Fack up last year, and the overall TAC reduction ;) When you add that all up were looking at a shortened season. Unless my basic reasoning skills and DFO's track record are both way off ;)

303

Here is everything you need to know about the observer programs and monitoring services that pertain to commercial fishing, this included charters of all fisheries as well. Hope this helps you understand more of what we the commercial fishermen, participate in on a regular basis to help sustain the fisheries that have been discussed here. We all know how screwed up the Dumb F---ing Ogres are, but we've known that for eons now, and nothing surprises me anymore.

http://www.archipelago.ca/

[22savage]

looks like a 3% increase in area 2b halibut quota has been approved for this year, good news considering what is happening to the other sub areas of this coast

[Ironsights]

Hey sporties guess what makes the world go around?

Guess what... you arent giving any of it to the government to go catch a fish and feed your family.

Who do you think they are going to favor in the end? Maybe you guys will get lucky and a few of these rich lodge owners will throw their weight around and get something done. Otherwise enjoy sitting on your ass and buying fish from the store all winter.

[Caribou_lou]

Hey sporties guess what makes the world go around?

Guess what... you arent giving any of it to the government to go catch a fish and feed your family.

Who do you think they are going to favor in the end? Maybe you guys will get lucky and a few of these rich lodge owners will throw their weight around and get something done. Otherwise enjoy sitting on your ass and buying fish from the store all winter.

Wow, thats some first post...

We are already shut down for harvesting Halibut in the winter. Why are we shut down in the winter?.... because the lodges aren't operating at that time.

[Sleep Robber]

If a bunch of Average Joe sports fishermen that likes to go out on his own to fish for halibut were to get together and complain/protest about how much fish the guiding/lodging business's actually catch out of the rec sector's TAC, maybe the Average Joe could fish damn near all year long. But nooooooo, instead, lets just hound the commercial guys instead. Is it fair that the guide/lodges are allowed to catch so much of the sports sector 12%, when the only ones that can really afford to use these business's are "well off" customers ?? I don't think so, and IMO, this is where the real problem lies. How many of you's can actually afford the outrageous costs of these outfits so you can go catch a bloody halibut ??? Seems to me that the people are making war with the wrong party here, instead of targeting the supposed rinky dink outfits like the OP's as well as the the big wig lodge outfits, who are more or less the actual reason the AJ's chances of fishing halibut ends early. If it weren't for them, the regular blue collar could take his wife and kids out and catch a halibut when ever they wanted to, as there would be plenty of rec sector fish left. To think, that the guide/lodge outfits share the same 12% as your Average Joe just doesn't seem right to me. Just felt as though the the pot was getting sticky and needed a stir :wink:

[Tyee]

Charters & Lodges
Commercial nice" so it looks like you would like to see them put into the commercial TAC. I'm sure the Charter fleet and Lodges would not have a problem with that maybe that will be put on the table ? Or is already ?

[Sleep Robber]

Charters & Lodges
Commercial nice" so it looks like you would like to see them put into the commercial TAC. I'm sure the Charter fleet and Lodges would not have a problem with that maybe that will be put on the table ? Or is already ?

I'm pretty sure the Lodges and guides want to stay just where they are, but want more fish, like the rest of the rec sector does. All I'm saying is that the average fisherman who is a blue collar worker can't afford to fish halibut everyday, and most likely needs to know a friend with a decent boat to go with. By the time the average guy can get around to figuring out a trip, the lodge/guide outfits have been on the constant slaughter and decreasing the regular Joe's chances, because before you know it, all the rec TAC is done, and the smaller income family's who like to sports fish too are left with nothing, when it comes to the halibut.:( But here you have certain people saying it's OUR resource, for ALL to enjoy. But you don't see the lodges and guides shutting down early and leaving a decent % of the rec TAC in the water so the blue collard mom and dad can fish too, do ya?? It's quite the opposite, and I don't know of many people who can afford to pay what the guides/lodges charge for a day or week of salmon/halibut fishing, the prices are nuts,and doesn't justify their expenses IMO. It just doesn't seem fair to the average guy who likes to fish, that's all I'm saying.

[IronNoggin]

"Average Joe" comes from not only right here at home, but Alberta, sometimes Quebec, sometimes Newfoundland, NWT, Yukon, Occasionally Manitoba or even Saskatchewan.

Each and Every One supposedly "owns" access. Each bought a ticket to the program simply by living in Canada.

Each gets to chose just how to "prosecute" their own License.

Some will use their own boats, as they are experienced on this Coast.

Some will come with "buddies" which think they know... http://bestsmileys.com/eek/3.gif

And some with Buddies that actually do...
More Worrisome than the first group at times. http://forum.flybc.ca/style_emoticons/default/sailor.gif

Some will actually hire those with proven experience to point them in the right direction, and hopefully be safer than is called for.
Perhaps more Effective, perhaps Not.

Each are the same. Each Angler has equal "Ownership". Each bought the same License.

Some spend money on boats, some spend money on those who own them. It's all the same. Really. Get over it.

It really isn't about which of us is taking, it's really about Who wants us divided http://forum.flybc.ca/style_emoticons/default/ok.gif

http://forum.flybc.ca/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

Nog

[blindguy]

Here's a question for ya Nog. I'm just heading out the door to do a little winter spring fishing and my wife just can't get out of bed this morn ,so i guess it would be alright if i leased her license as well so i could get a couple more fish.hmmmmmm

[Ironsights]

Here all you sporties are calling commercial fisherman greedy and look at posts like this pathetic one above me. You guys keep talking about providing for your familys... thats a joke. You are mostly doing it for enjoyment. If you caught 100lb halibut there is no way you are eating all that throughout the winter. You eating fish every night? Dont bullshit me. You are giving it away to friends and family and having it a few times, hoping to get rid of it all so you can go out and have the enjoyment of catching another one. Quit trying to take money out of hard working peoples pockets for your own ****in enjoyment. Its wrong!

[Tyee]

IronSights what would make you happy to see done with Quota ?

[Sleep Robber]

The easiest way to make things fair "ACROSS THE BOARD" is to take 8% from the commercial quota and give it to the rec quota, making a 80% - 20% split.

The 8% that is taken away from the commercial quota should only come from the quota that wasn't purchased, because if you "BOUGHT QUOTA" you "OWN IT"

This way the commercial guy that bought quota doesn't get ripped off, and the guys that were awarded the "FREE GIFTS" don't miss what they don't see, but still get a good size quota {what's 8% split between them gonna hurt ??}

Basically the Government/DFO just has to tweak the numbers a bit, and we "KNOW" their experts at that :mrgreen::mrgreen:

Sound like a good solution for both sides ?? Pretty simple way to make everybody happy in the end I think. :wink:

[303Brit]

The easiest way to make things fair "ACROSS THE BOARD" is to take 8% from the commercial quota and give it to the rec quota, making a 80% - 20% split.

The 8% that is taken away from the commercial quota should only come from the quota that wasn't purchased, because if you "BOUGHT QUOTA" you "OWN IT"

This way the commercial guy that bought quota doesn't get ripped off, and the guys that were awarded the "FREE GIFTS" don't miss what they don't see, but still get a good size quota {what's 8% split between them gonna hurt ??}

Basically the Government/DFO just has to tweak the numbers a bit, and we "KNOW" their experts at that :mrgreen::mrgreen:

Sound like a good solution for both sides ?? Pretty simple way to make everybody happy in the end I think. :wink:


Thats one of the smartest things I've seen a commie type ;) jk

I think that would be appealling to pretty much everyone

303

[303Brit]

Hey sporties guess what makes the world go around?

Guess what... you arent giving any of it to the government to go catch a fish and feed your family.

Who do you think they are going to favor in the end? Maybe you guys will get lucky and a few of these rich lodge owners will throw their weight around and get something done. Otherwise enjoy sitting on your ass and buying fish from the store all winter.


And in contrast probably the most ignorant thing in this thread ;)

Oh and welcome to HBC :mrgreen:

303

[22savage]

69% of the halibut sport quota is being takin by the for profit guys (lodge & charter ) now they come to the table and say we are fighting for the average joe . I really wonder who's interest they are looking out for . BE AWARE OF THE WOLF IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING , ARE YOU BEING USED FOR PROFIT Not trying to divide anybody as I understand the 69% number comes from the DFO

[Sleep Robber]

Thats one of the smartest things I've seen a commie type ;) jk

I think that would be appealling to pretty much everyone

303

Hey, we're not all a-holes, I just want to go fishing, and see the sport guys have some fishing time too. I still sports fish a lot myself, so I can see it from both sides, thus the idear I suggested. :wink: Thanks for the comment 303 Brit

[22savage]

The 8% that is taken away from the commercial quota should only come from the quota that wasn't purchased, because if you "BOUGHT QUOTA" you "OWN IT"


maybe it might be better to get that 8% from the guys leasing their quota's and not the working guy in the industry . As I understand that 56% of the Quota's have changed hands since the quota system has started and that the 8% shift not go to the for profit guys . That any unused quota goes back to the commerical sector from which it came one might be able to make it fly

[Sleep Robber]

Hypothetically speaking, if that 69% is correct, then there's not much of a problem. Just say that my example above were to come true, IE: 80% - 20% split. Now with the100% rec sector quota for everybody who sport fishes, I'd say a fair split between the guide/lodge vs the regular Joe would be a 65% - 35% split, because we all know that there are way more halibut caught by the guide/lodge part of the rec sector than the average Joe with a boat of his own. When you get above the 70% level, then I see the A Joe not having any fish come later in the season, and the fishery needs to be opened for the whole year, as some can only fish at certain times in the year.

It sounds like I'm dividing the rec sector into two, and in a way I am, but it's only common sense that says this is the fair way to go. The guide/lodge business's should have to report every fish {a mandatory requirement, that will be checked throughout the season} and when their 65% is caught, they shut down. It still makes for a good business, as they could check for cast and see what the remaining part of their % is at all times, and address their business accordingly, and the A Joe just goes fishing, like he should be able to.

Maybe I'm way off here, but something like this might be a good plan. Put it this way, if the 69% is true, were the guide/lodges happy with their take from last year ?? If not, why, are they just being greedy, and it actually was quite good, I guess we'll never know.

I'd like to hear some people's thoughts on this, elaborate if you please.:wink:

[RustyRipper]

The easiest way to make things fair "ACROSS THE BOARD" is to take 8% from the commercial quota and give it to the rec quota, making a 80% - 20% split.

The 8% that is taken away from the commercial quota should only come from the quota that wasn't purchased, because if you "BOUGHT QUOTA" you "OWN IT"

This way the commercial guy that bought quota doesn't get ripped off, and the guys that were awarded the "FREE GIFTS" don't miss what they don't see, but still get a good size quota {what's 8% split between them gonna hurt ??}

Basically the Government/DFO just has to tweak the numbers a bit, and we "KNOW" their experts at that :mrgreen::mrgreen:

Sound like a good solution for both sides ?? Pretty simple way to make everybody happy in the end I think. :wink:

That's a pretty good idea sleep robber, in theory, and I would agree to that however those guys who would be forfitting their part of the quota might not and unfourtunately for this cause, they most likely have a lot of money and would put up a fight. If everyone could get together and write in letters or just a select few with this same idea maybe something could happen, instead of everyone just writing in all kinds of ideas with their own vested interests in mind. When that happens DFO may actually follow through with something, otherwise nothing will happen, at least not to everyones pleasure. Also there is the issue of taking from one commercial business and giving to another. Sure the average angler will benefit from this added 8% to a degree but the lodges will benefit the most, along with foriegn recreational fishermen. If this were to happen, hypothetically, and assuming this statistic of 69% lodge and charter harvest is true, then this 8% increase would only be a 2.48% increase to recreational anglers who have their own boats or friends who do, who can't afford to stay at lodges or even hire guides and charters. It's something (with a rough estimate maybe 0.3 of a fish to everyone), but in the end greed would prevail and the lodges would be wanting more again and we would be right back here where we started. I personally do not think that a simple change of allocation is going to make everyone happy and operate smoothly, it will simply be a quick fix to shut everyone up and keep the peace momentarily but the same problems will arise again.

[Keta1969]

THe above post echos my concerns all along .Until the lodges and guides can show how they will will live within any percentage while allowing a year round resident angler fishery they get no support from myself and several other sporsfishermen that I know.Our intewrests are not the same.

[Sitkaspruce]

So here is a question about the sport caught percent....

How many of you have lost out because the season was closed in what...Oct18th, 2010 and started Feb 1st, 2010??

If we get the proposed 8% that was mentioned above and now have 20%, who really cares if the guides/lodges catch 65%. Not too many of us are out there in the mid of hunting season targeting hali's or chasing winters in Jan for that matter. If we get an increase (3% is what I am reading, for at land-able total of around 846000 lbs) and the % stay the same, why do some of us on here whine about the guides/lodges???. They defiantly do not fish much in the winter, if at all. I bet 95% of their catch is between May and Aug, same as when 90% of us are also targeting them. I am happy to put 3-5 "chickens" in the freezer a year, I mean how much does any one need???

We need to stop dividing ourselves and band together, or we will be seeing less fish for ALL of us......

And maybe Ironsites should be out TROLLING for hali instead of on here:mrgreen::wink:

Cheers

SS

[Sleep Robber]

So here is a question about the sport caught percent....

How many of you have lost out because the season was closed in what...Oct18th, 2010 and started Feb 1st, 2010??

If we get the proposed 8% that was mentioned above and now have 20%, who really cares if the guides/lodges catch 65%. Not too many of us are out there in the mid of hunting season targeting hali's or chasing winters in Jan for that matter. If we get an increase (3% is what I am reading, for at land-able total of around 846000 lbs) and the % stay the same, why do some of us on here whine about the guides/lodges???. They defiantly do not fish much in the winter, if at all. I bet 95% of their catch is between May and Aug, same as when 90% of us are also targeting them. I am happy to put 3-5 "chickens" in the freezer a year, I mean how much does any one need???

We need to stop dividing ourselves and band together, or we will be seeing less fish for ALL of us......

And maybe Ironsites should be out TROLLING for hali instead of on here:mrgreen::wink:

Cheers

SS

Very good point Sitkaspruce, I just want to see the guy that cannot afford to hire a charter or stay at a lodge still be able to catch some fish before they're all gone.

I will point out that I am not familiar as to when the sport sectors halibut quota usually has been reached, but it's fair to say your mentioned dates seem adequate.

I ask you all, would a 65% guide/lodge - 35% Joe fisher guy with a boat {so to speak} be too unrealistic ?? Or would it be better to just award the rec sector the additional 8% {that must "ONLY" come from non-buyers commercial quota} and be done with it ?? If Joe blow can't afford to go fishing halibut, too bad for him ?? I don't know, maybe that's just the reality of it all, like other expensive things we all would like to do, but can't afford to do them, so we do without and only wish/dream instead.

This is for 22savage, and some others too,

The guys that actually bought their halibut quota have every right to lease if they want to, it's perfectly legal. Deckhands like myself don't think so, but too bad for us, we should have bought some when we had the chance, but were too busy blowing our hard earned cash on booze, dope and whores :mrgreen: Some have put in years of fishing time, and many still own a boat with gear, but hire someone else to catch the fish. Why ??, many reasons, too old, partaking in other fisheries, other business ventures, etc. etc. Many just lease their quota and stay home golfing, but hey, more power to them. They've earned it. Just like the guy who worked a ranch his whole life,{this may be a bad example, but you get my point} he gets up in age, and decides to lease the ranch to a young up and comer. They both still make money, it's just that he doesn't have to get shit on his boots anymore, there's no difference really.

Then there's the guys that didn't pay a red cent for their fish, this is where the 8% should come from, I mean there must be a list of these 'freebie' quota owners somewhere don't ya think ???!!!!! Records will show who owns what amount, where it came from, how long they've owned it etc etc. Take away a little piece of their pie and feed it to the rec sector, they'll get over it, it's not like their broke, and if they want to fight it, let em, the judge will see just how greedy the ba$tards really were in the first place. :wink: The guy who owns something he worked for his whole life to get, doesn't need to be hassled in any way {regarding his ownership of quota}. Let them be, and nail the free birds instead.:twisted:

[Johnnybear]

Then there's the guys that didn't pay a red cent for their fish, this is where the 8% should come from, I mean there must be a list of these 'freebie' quota owners somewhere don't ya think ???!!!!! Records will show who owns what amount, where it came from, how long they've owned it etc etc. Take away a little piece of their pie and feed it to the rec sector, they'll get over it, it's not like their broke, and if they want to fight it, let em, the judge will see just how greedy the ba$tards really were in the first place. :wink: The guy owns something he worked for his whole life to get, doesn't need to be hassled in any way regarding his ownership of quota. Let them be, and nail the free birds instead.:twisted:

Wow great post Sleep Robber. I'm speachless actually. Kudos to you for posting that.

My understanding is that is what the sporties fight is all about what you just posted. They are not trying to take away from the "working" fisherman just the few that get to win the lottery over and over again.

How would you like to win a million bucks every year for the last 11 or so? for something that was given to you (just an example).

[Sleep Robber]

It all boils down to this, {notice I use the word "WE"}

The rec sector doesn't have enough quota, we all know that, right ??

Q, So what do we do about it ??

A, We make it 20% instead of 12%. This is "problem solving #1" that needs addressed.

Q, Where do we get the additional 8% ??

A, We get it from the freebie quotas, {too bad so sad, get over it rich pr!ck :twisted:}

But then, we still have a problem we need to solve, which is,

Q, How do we make it fair for the ENTIRE rec sector ??

A, To be determined, This is "problem solving #2" that needs addressed.

From what I have read on about 4 different sites, the everyday blue collar worker cannot afford to pay a guide to take him out, and definitely can't afford a trip to a Lodge facility. We're not all well off or Vancouver Canucks !! Their has been the argument that many choose to pay these fees to go fishing, because of the chances of actually catching a halibut are somehow increased, and other comments on how it is much safer to go with an experienced guide and so on. Their are plenty of regular men and women that are more than capable to fish halibut on their own, and can do it in a safe manner,and many would actually "NOT" want to go the way of the charter. I am one of these men, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna give somebody hundreds of dollars so I can catch a bloody fish, when I'm a native BCer who knows how to fish as good or better than some of these young whipper snappers you see out there on the guide boats.

How do we go by having the guide/lodge industry and the common fisher both being able to either run their business's, or just go catch a fish when they want to on their own, without running out of the hypothetically increased 20%. I think this is where the business part of the rec sector has to budge, in some sort of way, instead of constantly saying they are nothing but "service providers and water taxis". Their more than that, when their business's start taking away chances of halibut fishing for the common man with a small paycheck.

But wait a minute !! I'm not finished yet !!

What about the Americans who take the short run across the invisible line, into our waters and slay the halibut also, which comes off the rec sectors quota as well.

This is "problem solving #3 that needs addressed.

Q, What do we do about this problem ??

A, The only one I have is "PROTEST", maybe some of you's have a better idea, if so, I'm all ears :wink:


Sleep Robber :cool:

[Sitkaspruce]

From what I have read on about 4 different sites, the everyday blue collar worker cannot afford to pay a guide to take him out, and definitely can't afford a trip to a Lodge facility. We're not all well off or Vancouver Canucks !!

Sleep Robber :cool:

Sleep Robber

I think that most BC workers from across Canada can afford a few days out with a guide, especially if they have a crew of them. Dependig on where they are from, $500 will get you a great experience on the water and a fish cooler full of fresh fish. Hell most of us spend that every year on one hunting trip or just gas for around home. If you do not have a boat and really want to go fishing, then plan ahead and start saving.....after all it is just money:wink::mrgreen:, but if not, then that is where you and your guys come in, to supply those who want some hali, but cannot go.

Again, I have never had a problem with guides or lodges (well most of them, a few from PH are a PITA...:mrgreen:) as they keep students empoyed over the summer, provide a service for those who do not live on the coast or have a boat and do provide some job spin off and tax base to the communities they reside in.

Cheers

SS

[Tyee]

Its cheaper to go with a guide than own a boat you will only use a week a year. A guy from Alberta is not going to buy a boat just to go fishing for a week, he has the same right to come and get his Halibut as I do living here in BC. Same when I go and get my Geese in Alberta I get a guide.
Up here in Renfrew our local tourism is driven by Sport Charter, thats what employes people and a lot are young families. Most clients are from Canada and sure you see US anglers also but that is new money brought into Canada. The shocking news is that alot of people I talk to at restaurants come from the Island to fish here and hire a guide they have their own boats but want to go with a guide.
The problem with US boats coming across the water to fish do nothing for the local tourism, no moorage, no gas, no food, no tackle, just taking our Canadian Sport Quota which makes our season shorter. A lodge or Guide is a service to help people get on the water its good for all of us as it employes many people and puts money into our BC
economy. I come from a family line of commercial (fishers) thats what they called us way back when 300 hundred years. It started back in StoneHaven Scotland, when my grandfather moved here in 1890 he was still fishing. I was the first to not get into the commercial fishery I took shit) I made my mind up I was going to be a guide. I hope that is still open to kids from commercial fishing families in the future. Just because we like what we do we should not stop future generations from doing what they want, if you have a grandchild he may want to sport fish for Halibut in the future. These fights are for our kids and grandhildrens future to have a choice, Lets try and find a solution to this problem with out fighting between Sport and Commercial.

[IronNoggin]

The easiest way to make things fair "ACROSS THE BOARD" is to take 8% from the commercial quota and give it to the rec quota, making a 80% - 20% split.

The 8% that is taken away from the commercial quota should only come from the quota that wasn't purchased, because if you "BOUGHT QUOTA" you "OWN IT"

This way the commercial guy that bought quota doesn't get ripped off, and the guys that were awarded the "FREE GIFTS" don't miss what they don't see, but still get a good size quota {what's 8% split between them gonna hurt ??}

Basically the Government/DFO just has to tweak the numbers a bit, and we "KNOW" their experts at that

Sound like a good solution for both sides ?? Pretty simple way to make everybody happy in the end I think.

WOW! http://bestsmileys.com/wow/4.gif
A REAL Breath of Fresh Air Sleep Robber! KUDOS! http://bestsmileys.com/cool/3.gif
What you propose is DAMN Close to what I (and a host of others) have been pushing for all along! In a reasonable world, that just might work, and work well to alleviate the problems being encountered on both sides of the issue!

The only downside I can see is based on the very fact that it IS Reasonable, Simple and Fair. And that my Friend appears FAR to complicated for DFO to wrap their singular prehistoric brain cell around! :evil:


Not trying to divide anybody as I understand the 69% number comes from the DFO

But of course you are Buddy! Be divisive that is. I do find it somewhat humorous that on one hand you blatantly discount the catch monitoring for the recreational sector as being completely out to lunch, yet on the other are so swift to jump on any numbers that faulty system generates when they support your cause to keep the infighting amongst the recreational sector alive and well. Please provide us all with a link that clearly indicates the portion of halibut taken by the guides/lodges and those taken by the Average Angler. I will await that before wandering any further with you on that matter...

Sleep Robber you do present some interesting and related suggestions and IMO they incorporate some merit. Before we start splintering the recreational sector into smaller groups (an Internal Sectoral decision methinks) we should address the overall allocation issue. Your suggestions in that regard are quite noteworthy. As I have suggested previously, one hill at a time. Once (IF and when) the decision is made to Fairly distribute the catch (80-20 sounds right Fine to me btw), then would be the time for an open and honest discussion amongst the Sectors themselves just how their portion should be allocated within their sectors. I am not making light of what you suggest. It is just that there is already a Major Issue on the plate, and stepping up to yet another simultaneously seems a bit premature to me.

Methinks you might be a tad surprised to find out just how many of the guide/lodge's clients are from the "common man with a small paycheck" category. In my case, that particular group presents a little better than half of those who come out with me. They save up over the year for their one or two day opportunity to get out and enjoy fishing, much like many of us do regarding various hunting trips. And most of them that do so, do so directly as a result of their "small paycheck". The price of large, ocean-safe boats, electronics, moorage, insurance, fuel and year-round maintenance is simply beyond their means. The price of an annual charter simply pales in comparison.

As for the American Invaders, I have a somewhat more radical point of view. They have been riding on a Canadian Harvest Figure for decades, all the while putting extremely little back into Canada for being afforded the privilege of reaping Canadian fish. Do they make a significant difference? Why You Betcha! Neah Bay forays into Canadian waters alone accounted for in excess of 100,000 pounds of halibut being removed from the Canadian Recreational Harvest level. In all the marine waters of the US Pacific northwest, it is ILLEGAL for a Canadian to fish from their own rig except under extraordinary conditions. Conditions that include the requirement that an American guide is on-board at all times. My thought is that it is time for the Tit for Tat program to be returned right back to them. Not only would severely restricting their unabridged access free up some considerable numbers for Canadian Citizens, it would most likely have a positive influence in doing away with the Illegal Guiding Operations from the US operating in direct defiance of the Law. Apologies to those US Anglers who do spend a little jingle while on your forays up into Canadian waters, but it is YOUR Government who created this mismatched situation, and until it is rectified, I have little in the way of empathy for you.

Again, these are issues and battles for another day. What lies before us NOW is to realize the Fair and Equitable Sharing of the Canadian TAC amongst the user groups. Congratulations to Sleep Robber to be the first amongst his sector (that I am aware of) to make some rather positive suggestions towards that end! :-D

TYEE: Excellent Post! http://bestsmileys.com/thumbs/7.gif

Keep the letters rolling Folks. We ARE getting noticed so no time to drop the ball!

Cheers,
Nog

[22savage]

AS takin from the IPHC web site under PACIF HALIBUT ALLOCATION POLICY -FACT SHEET Acorrding to DFO, only 10% of total recreational fishing effort is directed at halibut-few anglers fish for halibut. The vast majority (69%) of the recreational halibut catch is from the lodge and charter vessel sector .This is not a mom & pop sport fishery ; it is driven by recreational fishing businesses (AS copied word for word from the IPHC web site)

[Johnnybear]

AS takin from the IPHC web site under PACIF HALIBUT ALLOCATION POLICY -FACT SHEET Acorrding to DFO, only 10% of total recreational fishing effort is directed at halibut-few anglers fish for halibut. The vast majority (69%) of the recreational halibut catch is from the lodge and charter vessel sector .This is not a mom & pop sport fishery ; it is driven by recreational fishing businesses (AS copied word for word from the IPHC web site)

75% of those 69% are Canadian citizens who bought a recreational salt water sportsfishing license and hired someone to take them out to catch some common resource because they can't afford a boat.

[Sitkaspruce]

AS takin from the IPHC web site under PACIF HALIBUT ALLOCATION POLICY -FACT SHEET Acorrding to DFO, only 10% of total recreational fishing effort is directed at halibut-few anglers fish for halibut. The vast majority (69%) of the recreational halibut catch is from the lodge and charter vessel sector .This is not a mom & pop sport fishery ; it is driven by recreational fishing businesses (AS copied word for word from the IPHC web site)

How the hell does DFO know that, probably the same folks who come up with the sport fish caught hali numbers.....all pulled out of a hat.

Those numbers are just a guess and it is those numbers that inflame and divide the sportfishermen on who should have what.

All they are is numbers, I would like to see how they came to those numbers.

Cheers

SS

[22savage]

How the hell does DFO know that, probably the same folks who come up with the sport fish caught hali numbers.....all pulled out of a hat.

Those numbers are just a guess and it is those numbers that inflame and divide the sportfishermen on who should have what.

All they are is numbers, I would like to see how they came to those numbers.

Cheers

SS

You may want to take that up with DFO , not sure what benefit the DFO would get by trying to divide the commerical and recreatioinal sectors .Seems to me if the numbers are not in your favour you call bs

[Sitkaspruce]

You may want to take that up with DFO , not sure what benefit the DFO would get by trying to divide the commmerical and recreatioinal sectors .Seems to me if the numbers are not in your favour you call bs


I am not one to look for favour's from any one, and personally just want to see what all Canadians are entitled to.

A question for you 22savage...If, and that might be a big If, you are a sportsfisherman, how many times are you checked by the creel survey person a year??? And when they do check you, have they ever measured and weighted your hali??? last year, checked at least 8 times, not one ever looked at my hali (only put two in the boat...:-D), all they wanted was numbers of hali. They sure were interested in my springs though.:mrgreen:

So, from this, please inform me as to how they come up with a yearly catch number for the sporties.....by the once a month fly over???

And I was not refering to DFO using the numbers, but your buddies using them to divide the sporties, which does make it easier for the DFO number crunchers to sleep at night:wink:

I am just looking for how they come up with these numbers....

Cheers

SS

[22savage]

IF you want to find out how the halibut numbers are collected contact DFO and find out for your self . YES I do sport fish and have for over 40 years.I have been check a number of times while sport fishing they seemed to be interested in licences,that you are recording your catch and that you are following catch limits.

[Sitkaspruce]

IF you want to find out how the halibut numbers are collected contact DFO and find out for your self . YES I do sport fish and have for over 40 years.I have been check a number of times while sport fishing they seemed to be interested in licences,that you are recording your catch and that you are following catch limits.

I am not talking about the DFO officers.......I am talking about the student who visits you at the dock and gathers all the creel survey stuff. But then maybe you just have not met one in the 40 years you been fishing.:wink:

Oh I have asked DFO, many times, the answer has been a combo of speculation, numbers of boats by overflight, more speculation and then add in a good dose of estimation and they come up with a valid number they take to the IPHC.

if they would show us how they come up with the number, than maybe more folks would understand the closure dates.....but that just a thought. You have any better ideas 22 savage????

Cheers

SS

[Johnnybear]

if they would show us how they come up with the number, than maybe more folks would understand the closure dates.....but that just a thought. You have any better ideas 22 savage????

Cheers

SS

Great post SS. I was just toying with his "twist and shout" post's and throwing numbers on numbers so to speak. I totally agree with your post's about how do they collect numbers?

I have been in favour of the idea of sending in your catch numbers on the your sportsfishing license for some time now. My understanding is that this is in the works and we will see something soon. Send it in at the end of the year with EVERY species you caught. How many, location, etc.

IMHO it has to be done and every sportsfisherman has to comply so that we get over this arguement. More importantly the hard data is needed big time so that everyone has a better grasp of what stocks are doing.

[22savage]

If the numbers don't work for ya ,why not do some research ,contact the creel survey people if you have been check 8 times in one year you must be on a first name bases with these people.If they know when to close the fishery and know that you are 100,000 pounds over your allocation there must be some FACTS out there. Or maybe it is just as easy to say that they pull the numbers out of their butts