Compensation for cougars hunters, the legal way?

[yukon john]

I'm not try to advocate anything illegal but I want to go cougar hunting. I am willing to help out with expenses = compensation = illegal guiding right? What if a houndsman sold shares in his dog pack. If you can sell a dog then you can sell part of a dog, as part ''owner'' in a dog pack it would be perfectly reasonable for me to help out with the costs that come with the dogs. You can even write a contract to make it official. The compensation has nothing to do with the hunt.
An old houndsman told me about the old days when you could take lots of cougars each season and it was more worth it to keep dogs, he told me the hounds clubs could field 70+ dogs and sometimes they turned them all loose on a single track.
The expenses must be high for a houndsman nowadays wouldnt it be more reasonable if he could share the expenses with a couple other co-owners not to mention he could kill more cats in a season, which would definately help the mule deer out.
If there is any houndsman from the valley on here that like this idea and are looking for some help, drop me a line, I'm in good shape (sheep guide) and dont even need to kill a cat at this point if I can just come along for the run.
Also I know there is CO's lurking on here and if you think this is a big no no let me know

[GoatGuy]

compensation the legal way? hahaha.

Owning a dog or renting it would be fine, the 'guiding' part probably comes in if the dog owner's with you.

Having said that there are enough resident houndsman who have been accused of illegal guiding and reported for taking friends with them that they won't touch this subject.

If I was a houndsman I'd steer clear, especially knowing the history.

[dana]

Dude, if you really want to go cougar hunting. Buy your own dog. They really aren't the expense that many houndsmen say they are. I've got 2 and they don't cost me much to feed. They are no different than any other family pet. Some breeds are pretty vocal so if you live in area where city noise bylaws apply, it could cause ya some pain. There are other breeds that ain't that noisy so they would be a better bet in that situation. They are very friendly dogs for the most part and can make great family pets.

[SHAKER]

Dude, if you really want to go cougar hunting. Buy your own dog. They really aren't the expense that many houndsmen say they are. I've got 2 and they don't cost me much to feed. They are no different than any other family pet. Some breeds are pretty vocal so if you live in area where city noise bylaws apply, it could cause ya some pain. There are other breeds that ain't that noisy so they would be a better bet in that situation. They are very friendly dogs for the most part and can make great family pets.

:confused: Food expences are about the same but equiptment accosiated with runn'n hounds is not cheep! And in reality they are a pain the the butt compared to most other breeds. But we love them just the same dispite everything. As far as the "illegal guiding" thing..... I wouldn't go anywhere near that topic. I've had problems just take'n a long time friend out hunt'n, he got grilled by the CO's like a char broiled steak. I know they're just doing their job but you shouldn't have to justify every time you go hunt'n.

[dana]

What equipment? A guy doesn't have to own a sled. Just find out where they are logging this winter and drive those roads looking for tracks. Heck, gawd forbid that you take your dog on lead and go for a walk in some mule deer winter range to cut a track. In many parts of the Interior I could hunt with a car. Just step off of pavement and hike the fir winter range. Tracking devices aren't all they are cracked up to be. A guy can do it without that technology. Just don't turn loose until you've freshened up the track so much that it smokin hot. There are plenty of ways to skin a cat and you don't have to fall into the trap of the expensive route.

[Barracuda]

I disagree about the tracking devices. (the vehicles i agree with , run what you have as it is probably good enough)

without them a dog can be stuck or hung up and you couldnt find them. If a dog stays close and doesnt go deep then it isnt a problem but if you have nasty terrain and a deep hunting dog then only someone that doesnt value their dog would hunt without some kind of tracking hardware.

That being said it only cost about $150 dollars to get a tracking collar just make sure it is in you friends frequency.
Getting 1 dog and only hunting with friends is an option that i dont understand why more folks dont do. It allows you to get a bond and understanding of the animals and how they work.

You can get tight lipped close hunting hounds that make great pets there are also plenty of hound crosses that dont go deep and make good hunters/pets.

[dana]

Keep your dog fat and you should be able to keep up. ;)

[Benelli FanBoy]

...I've had problems just take'n a long time friend out hunt'n, he got grilled by the CO's like a char broiled steak...

Sorry but what was illegal in taking a long time friend hunting? Splitting the gas and bringing some snacks is considered "compensation or reward"????

The following is straight out the Hunting Synopsis:

--The Wildlife Act defines "guide" as: "a person who for compensation or reward received or promised, accompanies and assists another person to hunt wildlife".

--It is unlawful to act as, or offer to act as, a guide for fish or game for compensation or reward unless licensed to do so.


Please tell me what the CO might hassle "a long time friend" on???

[Fixit]

i dont see paying for gas/food/expenses as any compensation. nobody is coming out ahead/earned any profit if you do that.

[Benelli FanBoy]

Im not trying to hi-jack this thread, I understand the original question was not with "long time friends" in mind.

My questions is more specific to SHAKER's post.

[rocksteady]

I hunt cougars with a friend, known him for about 5 years or so......Had the discussion with a CO friend of mine about the interpretation of illegal guiding and he said no way.....If I go out with him, pay for gas and refreshements afterwwards, it is not considered illegal guiding....As long as there is no financial compensation, then there is no offence occurring....

If the interpretation was as strict as some are implying it is, Wayne would be in jail, as he invites numerous friends into his camp, sends them into promising areas, helps them pack stuff out....all he gets compensated is a handshake, maybe a few beers around a campfire, and rumour is, once he got a big HUG........Can't confirm the huggers identity but I have my opinion of who it is:wink:

[GoatGuy]

Sorry but what was illegal in taking a long time friend hunting? Splitting the gas and bringing some snacks is considered "compensation or reward"????

The following is straight out the Hunting Synopsis:

--The Wildlife Act defines "guide" as: "a person who for compensation or reward received or promised, accompanies and assists another person to hunt wildlife".

--It is unlawful to act as, or offer to act as, a guide for fish or game for compensation or reward unless licensed to do so.


Please tell me what the CO might hassle "a long time friend" on???

There have been quite a few guys who have been called, not what I would call hassled, from COs in region 8 due to complaints of illegal guiding.

It's part of the wonderful dynamic we seem to have here.

For the most part I believe those times have passed as the COs don't really listen to the 'complaints' or the 'complainants'. Most of the resident cat hunters, of which there are few, have already been spoken to.

[mark]

I can just imagine who the "complainer" is????????

Who else would care????

[GoatGuy]

I can just imagine who the "complainer" is????????

Who else would care????

It isn't just one. :wink:

[dana]

I hear there is some good cougar hunting in that Ok Mtn area. Anyone up to a chase? ;)

[MattB]

I hear there is some good cougar hunting in that Ok Mtn area. Anyone up to a chase? ;)

Careful what you say on here, you never know who will come knocking at your door!

[SHAKER]

What equipment? A guy doesn't have to own a sled. Just find out where they are logging this winter and drive those roads looking for tracks. Heck, gawd forbid that you take your dog on lead and go for a walk in some mule deer winter range to cut a track. In many parts of the Interior I could hunt with a car. Just step off of pavement and hike the fir winter range. Tracking devices aren't all they are cracked up to be. A guy can do it without that technology. Just don't turn loose until you've freshened up the track so much that it smokin hot. There are plenty of ways to skin a cat and you don't have to fall into the trap of the expensive route.

True but your play'n with fire turn'n a dog out without knowing where he's going. Even them slam dunk runs can turn into a nighmare when things go wrong!

As far as taken friends out their is nothing wrong with that. The CO"s were just doing their job following up on a complaint that I was guiding someone since we killed a Cougar that morning. Complainties just don't like any competition!:twisted:

[dana]

Careful what you say on here, you never know who will come knocking at your door!

Bring it on. :twisted:

[bridger]

the problem arises when outfitters see resident hunters having sucess hunting cats. if they see the same guy and his hounds more than once in their areas bingo that guy is illegally guiding not recognizing that the houndsman may have more than one friend. happens to my friends and my self quite often with a pack string. I no longer lose sleep over it.

[stoneguide]

True but your play'n with fire turn'n a dog out without knowing where he's going. Even them slam dunk runs can turn into a nighmare when things go wrong!

X2 many of the areas we hunt have high wolf numbers and at times will scatter your dogs. Collars can be a real asset in this situation or if you have one of them hounds that just wont give up and stays on that cat all night. Also have seen where dogs will cross a river where we couldnt follow without going way around. Once we got around without the collar we may not have found them as it was tough to figure out the scramble of tracks(deer, elk, cats, hounds).

You may find them without a tracking collar but I know I wouldnt be taking the risk of loosing a good dog thats for sure.

SG

[SHAKER]

X2 many of the areas we hunt have high wolf numbers and at times will scatter your dogs. Collars can be a real asset in this situation or if you have one of them hounds that just wont give up and stays on that cat all night. Also have seen where dogs will cross a river where we couldnt follow without going way around. Once we got around without the collar we may not have found them as it was tough to figure out the scramble of tracks(deer, elk, cats, hounds).

You may find them without a tracking collar but I know I wouldnt be taking the risk of loosing a good dog thats for sure.

SG


I think we owe them best possible ways to keep them safe, I cut me teeth hunt'n cats without tracking but just didn't seem right turning your friend out in the cold and have no idea WTF is going on out there. Don't know what hounds you've followed Dana but I doubt you'd keep up with a hard core hound, no offence! If you can then you truly are among the hardcore elite and I bow to thee.

Seems we've got a little off topic here, sorry.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

I live in a valley with a bunch of enviromental types, they seem to hate anything that resembles hunting, and times ten if that involves a dog. I have been reported for running out of season, tresspassing, and illegal guiding. I guide for cats and sometimes take out friends in between hunts. I don't even let my friends fill up the truck as I don't need the hassle.
As far as owning a hound and throwing in with a friend, do the dog a favor and not bother, as 99% of people don't spend the time training and excersing their hounds. You have to be committed to the dog and its training, most dogs will not catch you a cat with genetics.

[AT&T]

Hats off to anyone who is a really good cat hunter. I have done it but in steep mountains it just about killed me. I guess I can see a CO getting pissed if you were doing this as a business. Hell it would upset me. But guys getting together to kill cats and only one guy owns them. Maybe I missed something but that is pretty normal. I wish more people would come to where I live and kill cats for the next several months. There are so many it is just dumb.

[dana]

I think we owe them best possible ways to keep them safe, I cut me teeth hunt'n cats without tracking but just didn't seem right turning your friend out in the cold and have no idea WTF is going on out there. Don't know what hounds you've followed Dana but I doubt you'd keep up with a hard core hound, no offence! If you can then you truly are among the hardcore elite and I bow to thee.

Seems we've got a little off topic here, sorry.

Ya your right, only houndsmen of the current modern age with the techology are able to catch lions. Wonder how the oldtimers ever caught anything. ;) Trackin devises can be an asset but they ain't needed. The point I am making is you are lying to yourself if you think hunting lions has to be some kind of costly adventure. It is only as expensive as you make it. Kinda like a brand new RMK versus an old Tundra from the buy and sell. Fancy customized dog boxes versus the dog sitting on the seat next to ya. Seems many modern houndsmen are no different than many other hunters in our modern day. They think you have to spend a $hitload of money on all the latest and greatest gadgets to see success. Just ain't true. So to get back to the original poster, I stand by my comments. The best way for someone to get into hunting lions is to get a dog and try it themselves.

[Barracuda]

I disagree about the one hound not being a good idea. (how else would you get started unles you take the first step)

If you go down south or back east plenty of avid hunters own only one dog and hunt with friends, in fact its pretty common.
What better way to get involved in the sport then to be a part of it , it doesnt have to be a puppy it could allready be a fully grown and trained Hound from someone that hunts guids etc .


Its genes , training and haveing the time and very often social groups lend to promoting and sustaining these activities.
One dog is a great way to start and if your in a game rich area with lots of other houndsmen/houndswomen even a mixed dog would do :mrgreen:.

The other thing to remember is many places only allow a person to own a maximum of two dogs so haveing a pack is out of the question.

There is nothing so rewarding as your own dog working as it should .

The main point i was getting at was if you have a dog in the fight so to speak you have a vested interest.

[digger dogger]

Once you have all the things to hunt cats it's not all that expensive.
I spend around 2g's a year, food, shots, dewormer.
But they are alot of work, thank God that I have 2 sons to help out here and there!
I've had people ask me to take them for a cat, I say no every time!
I had a guy ask me, and after i said no he asked if i would take $ to take him out, i told him it was illegal to do so. Then he says "If you found an envelope in your mailbox with money in it, you wouldn't be sure of where it came from".
After not getting it, I abruptly said. "look man not only is it illegal, I bought dogs for myself and my kids, not money, or people I don't know. I will not take you out"

[SHAKER]

Ya your right, only houndsmen of the current modern age with the techology are able to catch lions. Wonder how the oldtimers ever caught anything. ;) Trackin devises can be an asset but they ain't needed. The point I am making is you are lying to yourself if you think hunting lions has to be some kind of costly adventure. It is only as expensive as you make it. Kinda like a brand new RMK versus an old Tundra from the buy and sell. Fancy customized dog boxes versus the dog sitting on the seat next to ya. Seems many modern houndsmen are no different than many other hunters in our modern day. They think you have to spend a $hitload of money on all the latest and greatest gadgets to see success. Just ain't true. So to get back to the original poster, I stand by my comments. The best way for someone to get into hunting lions is to get a dog and try it themselves.

They also lost dogs and had no idea where they went. As far as equiptment I run a 96 Tundra and have a home built plywood dog box in my truck! If your poor like me this stuff still cost money to do!

[dana]

And guys today don't loose dogs? :mrgreen:

[Spokerider]

Hats off to anyone who is a really good cat hunter. I have done it but in steep mountains it just about killed me. I guess I can see a CO getting pissed if you were doing this as a business. Hell it would upset me. But guys getting together to kill cats and only one guy owns them. Maybe I missed something but that is pretty normal. I wish more people would come to where I live and kill cats for the next several months. There are so many it is just dumb.



Where, in general are you talking about?

[leadpillproductions]

Whats the difference of two guy's meeting on here and going hunting , and splitting cost happens all the time . No difference is that illegal NO

[Spokerider]

Well, here on the island, cougar hunting started as settlements and farms spread over the island. Lions and bears killed stock, and farmers used whatever dogs they had on hand for chasing down the predators. These dogs were mostly collies and collie crosses.

Hunters began hunting predators for the bounty, since about 1898 to 1959, and they too used these same dogs for hunting with good success. Hounds were not brought to the island until 1929 or thereabouts, which is when bounty hunters began switching to hounds and hound crosses, but before that, collies got it done.


You don`t HAVE to have a hound to hunt cats, airedales, collies, or any dog that has a strong game running desire to hunt and has a loud non-relenting bark will catch cats. As with anything, what you invest into it you will reap in returns. Don`t train the dogs, don`t provide opportunity, don`t invest time and effort, and treed cats will be far and few between.

Be prepared to have your dog injured or killed by wolves, drowning, falling, wounds from sticks and brush, possibly mauled or killed by game, just plain lost, all in adverse conditions.

Don`t want to spend the $$ for a tracking system, then the risks stated above increase.

[Barracuda]

hounds were the prefered dog for cougar hunting in the early 1900 (and earlier) take a look at this from 1911 (at least on the mainland)

http://pasttensevancouver.wordpress.com/2008/03/22/cougar-hunting-in-stanley-park/

[Nait Hadya]

Whats the difference of two guy's meeting on here and going hunting , and splitting cost happens all the time . No difference is that illegal NO

outfitters,that's the difference.

[silvicon]

I get the feeling some posteres here are more than willing to turn a blind eye to illegal guiding.
There are some 'houndsman' out there that are willing to guide illegaly, giving the whole profession a bad name.

On one hand most of you bash the indians for their hunting,
on the other you are willing to do the same!

But hey; just a few good-old-boys resident 'hunters' out there doing their thing!

[Gateholio]

I get the feeling some posteres here are more than willing to turn a blind eye to illegal guiding.
There are some 'houndsman' out there that are willing to guide illegaly, giving the whole profession a bad name.

!

Could you point out specifically where on this thread someone suggested that they should turn a blind eye to illegal guiding? Please quote them. I can't seem to see anyone saying that, but maybe I missed it.

[115 or bust]

hunting with one or two hounds is something I am interested in for the future, once my kids are out of the daiper stage. How risky do the experienced guys find this for their animals. I assume that you need to work a much hotter track and that younger cats would likely be a better target. Any further insights??

[leadpillproductions]

So i have a buddy that has dogs and we go hunting , i cant pay for the gas . HMMMMM I think some people have to give their head a shake

[Kody94]

I get the feeling some posteres here are more than willing to turn a blind eye to illegal guiding.
There are some 'houndsman' out there that are willing to guide illegaly, giving the whole profession a bad name.

On one hand most of you bash the indians for their hunting,
on the other you are willing to do the same!

But hey; just a few good-old-boys resident 'hunters' out there doing their thing!


Huh? I don't see anyone here talking about illegal guiding. I'd assume the vast majority here would not support anyone that is not a licenced G/O taking "clients" out hunting for compensation.

[Kody94]

So i have a buddy that has dogs and we go hunting , i cant pay for the gas . HMMMMM I think some people have to give their head a shake


According to some it would be OK if you go hunting deer (or sheep, or elk or ....) together (even in his truck!), but not hunting cats with his dogs.

God forbid that you go fishing with him in his boat!!!!

lol

[ThinAir]

Taking "clients" out is one thing.... But buddies???

What about the guy that loads the boat with friends and heads up the Muskwa in Sept??? Big investment there too...

I think some people need to calm down!

[Kody94]

Taking "clients" out is one thing.... But buddies???

What about the guy that loads the boat with friends and heads up the Muskwa in Sept??? Big investment there too...

I think some GUIDE/OUTFITTERS need to calm down!

I fixed it fer ya. :)

[ThinAir]

I fixed it fer ya. :)

Yes... Good point! Thanks man:)

[Barracuda]

what is being said is that Because there are some Hound owners that take hunters(they dont call them clients they call them "Buddies" ) out for compensation (im not talking shareing costs/gas money either) that it paints a target on all hound hunters.


Add to that the hunters that dont like Houndsmen and then the guides that think that every other houndsman is takeing thier Cats or they want to remove resident hounders from the equation and you have a real Shit soup to swim in.



Personally the wife and I feel that the more people that get exposed and interested in hounding the better.
Its a real shame that some folks ruin it for others and their is such a stigma attached to it as i think more hounders would be proud to share with people something that they are passionate about if there wasnt so much fuss.

[bighornbob]

I hear there is some good cougar hunting in that Ok Mtn area. Anyone up to a chase? ;)

Way more big cats up penticton creek and easier to get to.

BHB

[Kody94]

.... the more people that get exposed and interested in hounding the better.
Its a real shame that some folks ruin it for others and their is such a stigma attached to it as i think more hounders would be proud to share with people something that they are passionate about if there wasnt so much fuss.

Absolutely!

[SHAKER]

And guys today don't loose dogs? :mrgreen:


Lets not get put ourselves in a piss'n match here.... Yes, lost dogs do happen but in my opinion we as real houndsmen owe our four legged friends and family members the most protection we can give them. They live a dangerous life but anything that we can do to minimize that is a good thing. So lets stay on topic here the topic was about renting\ leasing\ semi purchasing hounds to go cat hunting. :twisted:

[yukon john]

Lets not get put ourselves in a piss'n match here.... Yes, lost dogs do happen but in my opinion we as real houndsmen owe our four legged friends and family members the most protection we can give them. They live a dangerous life but anything that we can do to minimize that is a good thing. So lets stay on topic here the topic was about renting\ leasing\ semi purchasing hounds to go cat hunting. :twisted:


Thank you, and as I said I (and I'm sure many other guys on this site) would love the opportunity to go on a chase with or without a kill. Then I might have an idea of how to train my own dogs. Micheal Scnieder got me into blood tracking wounded game by taking me on tracks (a whole other ballgame) and he was only a phone call away while I trained my dog. The problem with cat hunting is that all the books in the world cant replace actually doing it first hand and having a mentor if I choose to train my own dogs. In short, like blood tracking, its not something you just do without help. Hell most of us had mentors that got us into hunting, why cant we have guys taking a few other hunters out just for a few chases each winter and why cant those newbies help with expenses.

[LeverActionJunkie]

Thank you, and as I said I (and I'm sure many other guys on this site) would love the opportunity to go on a chase with or without a kill. Then I might have an idea of how to train my own dogs. Micheal Scnieder got me into blood tracking wounded game by taking me on tracks (a whole other ballgame) and he was only a phone call away while I trained my dog. The problem with cat hunting is that all the books in the world cant replace actually doing it first hand and having a mentor if I choose to train my own dogs. In short, like blood tracking, its not something you just do without help. Hell most of us had mentors that got us into hunting, why cant we have guys taking a few other hunters out just for a few chases each winter and why cant those newbies help with expenses.


Well put and I agree with you. A while back I was looking at getting into the sport but wasn't about to dive on in without ever having done it before and with no idea as to how to start. I also see Dana's point too though It does seem to be one of those sports that has been complicated up the waazoo, from something simple and commonplace in days past.

[BlacktailStalker]

Thank you, and as I said I (and I'm sure many other guys on this site) would love the opportunity to go on a chase with or without a kill. Then I might have an idea of how to train my own dogs. Micheal Scnieder got me into blood tracking wounded game by taking me on tracks (a whole other ballgame) and he was only a phone call away while I trained my dog. The problem with cat hunting is that all the books in the world cant replace actually doing it first hand and having a mentor if I choose to train my own dogs. In short, like blood tracking, its not something you just do without help. Hell most of us had mentors that got us into hunting, why cant we have guys taking a few other hunters out just for a few chases each winter and why cant those newbies help with expenses.

You can.
Its when cats start hitting the ground things can be a bit of a headache because of jealousy or idiots making assumptions of what is really happening (friends hunting together or "Joe is guiding for cash now")

To most houndsmen, a cat in the tree is as special, or more so, than a 200" mule deer or a big ram on a mountain.
You probably wouldnt shoot a legal ram in a spot where you know he'll likely grow to trophy proportions or shoot the first 4 pt you see in an area where big mulies congregate year after year but see little pressure right ?

Things might change if "joe" knows about that spot.

Good cat crossings are just as secretive.
One cat often brings multiple others to an area, time and time again, which is far more valuable than killing that one cat, to most of us.
When every big tom dies another usually moves into that spot in time.
Finding a true trophy tom is farther and fewer between than a 180"+ mule deer or solid ram and just cuz ya find one, doesnt mean you're going to catch it.
About as many guys get let in on cat hunting as guys brought to hammer deer holes and plentiful sheep spots but I bet the cat hunters get much more grief for it.

The real problem is most guys just want to come out and kill one.
I cant count the number of pms, and conversations that go from "You have hounds right? Thats cool blah blah blah. If you ever need somebody to shoot a cat I dont mind buying a tag." :lol:
Yeah and if you ever need a guy to shoot your 180" mulies and book rams, I'm your man.

You sound like a good guy and I would imagine somebody knows you well enough to take you without it being a problem and maybe you'll get the bug like some of us but I always hope the "other guys" read these things and get a better understanding about what hounds is really about, not that its an "easy way to kill a cat."

[BlacktailStalker]

Well put and I agree with you. A while back I was looking at getting into the sport but wasn't about to dive on in without ever having done it before and with no idea as to how to start. I also see Dana's point too though It does seem to be one of those sports that has been complicated up the waazoo, from something simple and commonplace in days past.

Yeah, ok.
You're in for a rude awakening, good luck.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

While I suspect the majority of cat hunters(definitely all the G/O's) are like BTS and like to "manage" their cats, there are other cat hunters out there that hunt cats to help manage deer, elk and sheep populations....and take pride in doing so. They may have "certain" areas where they only chase big cats...but areas like "sheep feeders" are where tags get cut:).

SSS

[Spokerider]

While I suspect the majority of cat hunters(definitely all the G/O's) are like BTS and like to "manage" their cats, there are other cat hunters out there that hunt cats to help manage deer, elk and sheep populations....and take pride in doing so. They may have "certain" areas where they only chase big cats...but areas like "sheep feeders" are where tags get cut:).

SSS


Well, in my humble opinion, I have and always hope for increasing lion populations as ungulate populations correspondingly rise. I see deer, elk, moose and sheep as sustenance for lions, the BIG GAME animal that I place on a pedestal. The LAST thing I wish to see is multiple lions taken from one area by those who view them as prey-eating vermin. Now, that`s prolly the far end of the spectrum from where most hunters sit, but that me, out along the margins, lol.

[BlacktailStalker]

While I suspect the majority of cat hunters(definitely all the G/O's) are like BTS and like to "manage" their cats, there are other cat hunters out there that hunt cats to help manage deer, elk and sheep populations....and take pride in doing so. They may have "certain" areas where they only chase big cats...but areas like "sheep feeders" are where tags get cut:).

SSS

Yeah sheep killers nobody wants around, I know that.

Most guys think killing a big tom (because thats what most guys are after) helps.
It doesn't.
In fact you're doing the exact opposite for the ungulates in the area.
Anyone who understands cats understands this complicated and lengthy concept.

[Kody94]

While I suspect the majority of cat hunters(definitely all the G/O's) are like BTS and like to "manage" their cats,
SSS

Not all the G/Os. They don't like to send clients home empty handed and can be less fussy than resident hunters.

[LeverActionJunkie]

Yeah, ok.
You're in for a rude awakening, good luck.


What do you mean? I am not saying it was ever easy or that you don't need a good understanding of a complicated top predator. I'm only saying that the sport used to be about men and dogs hunting for tracks and then trailing cougars, not expensive equipment and vehicles etc. Maybe not as much with cougar hunting, but with bears and coons (especially down south) hounding is a very communal thing where various people bring dogs and have a chase. In any pastime it is usually the ones who segregate and remove the pastime from the common man who lead to it's downfall.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Not all the G/Os. They don't like to send clients home empty handed and can be less fussy than resident hunters.

Yes,this is sometimes true.
After the South OKanagan sheep die-off a dozen yrs ago a local GO ramped up his cat harvest a "substantial" amount. Whether it was to help the sheep recover or compensate for lost income in lost sheep tags(or maybe a bit of both), only he would know.
Fur was hitting the ground for a few yrs after that.

SSS

[Kody94]

Yes,this is sometimes true.
After the South OKanagan sheep die-off a dozen yrs ago a local GO ramped up his cat harvest a "substantial" amount. Whether it was to help the sheep recover or compensate for lost income in lost sheep tags(or maybe a bit of both), only he would know.
Fur was hitting the ground for a few yrs after that.

SSS

Lots of little toms and females still get taken home by clients in 4E.

[BlacktailStalker]

Lots of little toms and females still get taken home by clients in 4E.

Yeah... the cheque is already cashed.
Might as well send a client home with a dink cat ao you dont have to utilize the full length of the hunt and really try for a lunker :roll:

[Bear Chaser]

Yukon John brings up some good points about mentoring and learning to hunt with hounds. Sure it can be done by yourself and you can take a long time to learn some pretty hard lessons. For an experienced hunter who is humble enough to put his own ego aside and listen there is a wealth of information that can be gleaned even from a few chases. This is where the mentoring aspect comes in if houndsmen are willing to do it. Take the time to show new guys the right way, explain why and everyone will be better off. Show them nothing and guys are going to make mistakes/poor judgement calls that may negatively affect the public perception of all houndsmen.
Twenty years ago I met a guy who was willing to take a new hunter out for some bear races. We barely knew each other yet we developed a firm friendship and hunted hard together for the next six years until work and family committments got in the way of hunting with hounds any longer. During that time I learned about a lot more than bear hunting with hounds.
Experienced houndsmen please take the time to share your knowledge with people who are willing. It's the best thing you can do to ensure the future of your favorite pastime.

[mtnmanmike]

You can.
Its when cats start hitting the ground things can be a bit of a headache because of jealousy or idiots making assumptions of what is really happening (friends hunting together or "Joe is guiding for cash now")

To most houndsmen, a cat in the tree is as special, or more so, than a 200" mule deer or a big ram on a mountain.
You probably wouldnt shoot a legal ram in a spot where you know he'll likely grow to trophy proportions or shoot the first 4 pt you see in an area where big mulies congregate year after year but see little pressure right ?

Things might change if "joe" knows about that spot.

Good cat crossings are just as secretive.
One cat often brings multiple others to an area, time and time again, which is far more valuable than killing that one cat, to most of us.
When every big tom dies another usually moves into that spot in time.
Finding a true trophy tom is farther and fewer between than a 180"+ mule deer or solid ram and just cuz ya find one, doesnt mean you're going to catch it.
About as many guys get let in on cat hunting as guys brought to hammer deer holes and plentiful sheep spots but I bet the cat hunters get much more grief for it.

The real problem is most guys just want to come out and kill one.
I cant count the number of pms, and conversations that go from "You have hounds right? Thats cool blah blah blah. If you ever need somebody to shoot a cat I dont mind buying a tag." :lol:
Yeah and if you ever need a guy to shoot your 180" mulies and book rams, I'm your man.

You sound like a good guy and I would imagine somebody knows you well enough to take you without it being a problem and maybe you'll get the bug like some of us but I always hope the "other guys" read these things and get a better understanding about what hounds is really about, not that its an "easy way to kill a cat."

Being a houndsman myself I couldn't have stated this any better. I agree 100%

[Camp Cook]

What does it cost for a guided Mtn lion hunt?

[Gateholio]

List of Outfitters doing cougar hunts in BC

http://www.goabc.org/outfitters/default.aspx#results

Don't know if they all list prices or not...

I think most are around $4000

[brad ferris]

So to the original poster. My recommendation is when you meet a houndsman make friends. Get a phone number. Find a good tom track. Call him up. Tell him where it is. Ask if you can come along for the run mention you are not looking to kill a cat. Repeat this procedure as often as possible over the next couple years. Eventually he will say maybe you should buy a tag.

[bayou]

Lots of little toms and females still get taken home by clients in 4E.
Just guessing that 4E means east kootenay, and not sure if this is BCWF against outfitter talk or your personal opinion but Im sure little toms/females are taking by both resident and non resident.
Since your a number kinda guy heres a small example for the 08-09 and 09-10 seasons. residents took 87males and 22 females along with another 12 males and 23 females that werent incuded in quota for a total of 99males and 45 females. Non residents took 43 males and 7 females.
This does not include kittens or cats that are shot and left in the bush unrecorded which seems to be done more by residents.
Does illegal guiding for cats go on, yes there is a few groups in the EK that do it a fair bit they also do it for elk/deer and are suspected to possible doing it for sheep now. If this is the case it may take a few years but then something may happen for it seems like if something happens to sheep theres more concern, nothing usally gets done but more concern.
Another thing many resident houndsman do is bring there buddys and there dogs from the states and other provinces to run with them here which is also illegal unless with an outfitter.
The voices of the BCWF on this site say the deer and elk herds in the EK are over carrying capacity and theres know concern in the sheep herds,but godforbid if a cat kills one then its like it was the last animal on earth. Not sure where a cat is allowd in the EK not allowed on any sheep range, not allowed on any deer/elk or moose range, definatly better not cross farm or ranch land, not much space left for them. People need to get rid of there fear for them, put out by urban myths and realize there not that bad.
For the OP you may just have to get a dog of your own if your goal is to just kill a cat. Or as mentioned talk to guys and see if you can go along if theres mention of compensation then steer clear of them ,no sense in getting mixed up with them any way. In your first post your mention of being able to kill more cats and save deer is what turned me off.
There rare but there is a few guys out there that just like to be with there dogs in the mountains looking for and learing about cats the magnifacant animal they are. Ocassionally one may be harvested but that is definatly not the reason they are there.

[Gunner]

I've run cats with friends who have dogs a number of times,always buy a tag but I've never pulled the trigger.A really big tom might change my mind but the run is what it's all about,if you can make it to where the cat is treed it's no big deal to shoot it. Gunner

[SHAKER]

I've run cats with friends who have dogs a number of times,always buy a tag but I've never pulled the trigger.A really big tom might change my mind but the run is what it's all about,if you can make it to where the cat is treed it's no big deal to shoot it. Gunner


Well said...Gunner and Brad has it right, If your not a hound guy and want to get involved with someone who does, put some time in doing check'n trails and being under a few trees and it will probably be your turn one day when someone needs a trigger man. Not to mention you'll have some awsome pics to display in your house before your mounts done and you can laugh at the poor shmuck your guys drug with who's starting at the bottom of the ladder.

[GoatGuy]

Just guessing that 4E means east kootenay, and not sure if this is BCWF against outfitter talk or your personal opinion but Im sure little toms/females are taking by both resident and non resident.
Since your a number kinda guy heres a small example for the 08-09 and 09-10 seasons. residents took 87males and 22 females along with another 12 males and 23 females that werent incuded in quota for a total of 99males and 45 females. Non residents took 43 males and 7 females.
This does not include kittens or cats that are shot and left in the bush unrecorded which seems to be done more by residents.
Does illegal guiding for cats go on, yes there is a few groups in the EK that do it a fair bit they also do it for elk/deer and are suspected to possible doing it for sheep now. If this is the case it may take a few years but then something may happen for it seems like if something happens to sheep theres more concern, nothing usally gets done but more concern.
Another thing many resident houndsman do is bring there buddys and there dogs from the states and other provinces to run with them here which is also illegal unless with an outfitter.
The voices of the BCWF on this site say the deer and elk herds in the EK are over carrying capacity and theres know concern in the sheep herds,but godforbid if a cat kills one then its like it was the last animal on earth. Not sure where a cat is allowd in the EK not allowed on any sheep range, not allowed on any deer/elk or moose range, definatly better not cross farm or ranch land, not much space left for them. People need to get rid of there fear for them, put out by urban myths and realize there not that bad.
For the OP you may just have to get a dog of your own if your goal is to just kill a cat. Or as mentioned talk to guys and see if you can go along if theres mention of compensation then steer clear of them ,no sense in getting mixed up with them any way. In your first post your mention of being able to kill more cats and save deer is what turned me off.
There rare but there is a few guys out there that just like to be with there dogs in the mountains looking for and learing about cats the magnifacant animal they are. Ocassionally one may be harvested but that is definatly not the reason they are there.
This is interesting.

Why were the other cats not included in the harvest?

Have the people who are guiding illegally been reported?
Who are they, where are they from and how much do they charge?
How many of them are there?

What is the average age of harvest?
What is the target harvest?
What is the female target?
What is the target age of harvest?

What you're implying is that the current harvest and target is not sustainable. What do you believe is the 'sustainable' harvest number?

How many kittens and cats were killed and left?
How many of those were resident and how many were guided (legally and illegally)?

Not interested in the rhetoric, just pointed answers, with numbers.

[bayou]

[quote=GoatGuy;811952]This is interesting.

Why were the other cats not included in the harvest?
I have my opinion but you say not allowed to give them, to me a dead cat is a dead cat and all should go towards the quota.
Have the people who are guiding illegally been reported?
Yes by residents and outfitters
Who are they, where are they from and how much do they charge?
If you wish to do a hunt with them do your own research, not people I would recomend.
How many of them are there?
10 +
What is the average age of harvest?
What is the target harvest?
What is the female target?
What is the target age of harvest?
I will try to answer these, the biologist i trust says aging teeth is not acurate and there is only one lab he trusts in doing this and from my understanding these teeth are not sent there.
The female quota is 20 but as allready showing it only is for hunter killed so there seems to be no target for the rest is unlimited.
What you're implying is that the current harvest and target is not sustainable. What do you believe is the 'sustainable' harvest number?
Know never implied that just showed that what kody94 said could possible be worse by residents.
Do I beleve the quota should be lowered- Yes- if not it should include all dead cats that come from the area. A cap on toms as well may work or a total combined cap. Devide the region into 6 or 8 sections each with its own quota similar to alberta, lots of ways to skin a cat so to speak.
How many kittens and cats were killed and left?
How many of those were resident and how many were guided (legally and illegally)?Any kitten or cat shot and left would be illegal in my mind whether it was guided or done by reident.
specific numbers cant be given for it could effect cases/investgations.


Not interested in the rhetoric, just pointed answers, with numbers.

[Kody94]

Just guessing that 4E means east kootenay, and not sure if this is BCWF against outfitter talk or your personal opinion but Im sure little toms/females are taking by both resident and non resident.
Since your a number kinda guy heres a small example for the 08-09 and 09-10 seasons. residents took 87males and 22 females along with another 12 males and 23 females that werent incuded in quota for a total of 99males and 45 females. Non residents took 43 males and 7 females.


Bayou, yes 4E means EK.

No the talk isn't "BCWF against outfitters".

It was my personal response to SSS, who said that "all G/O's...manage their animals". That may be true in Reg 8, but not here.

I never said, or implied, that residents don't shoot females. Everyone knows that residents are the worst offenders in that regard (in Reg 4E at least) and your numbers show that. To repeat myself, I was only responding that our G/O's are far from perfect, as SSS's statement seemed to imply.

My other G/O comment was to reflect my personal opinion that most frivolous complaints of illegal guiding by residents come from the G/Os that would like to eliminate competition, and not from other residents. Again, JMHO, FWIW.

[srupp]

WOW..some real interesting stuff here...and points to consider I had never even dreamed of...part of what makes this site so good..lots of informed folks with different backgrounds sharing their points of view..

cheers
Steven

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Bayou, yes 4E means EK.

No the talk isn't "BCWF against outfitters".

It was my personal response to SSS, who said that "all G/O's...manage their animals". That may be true in Reg 8, but not here.

I never said, or implied, that residents don't shoot females. Everyone knows that residents are the worst offenders in that regard (in Reg 4E at least) and your numbers show that. To repeat myself, I was only responding that our G/O's are far from perfect, as SSS's statement seemed to imply.

My other G/O comment was to reflect my personal opinion that most frivolous complaints of illegal guiding by residents come from the G/Os that would like to eliminate competition, and not from other residents. Again, JMHO, FWIW.


Right. I should have said "most GO's would like to manage their cats"....but it sounds like there's a lot of guys chasing cats in 4E. Doesn't surprize me that the standards are "sometimes" lower than other areas with less pressure.

SSS

[GOLDEN TOP SNIPER]

They way it was explained to me in the west kootaneys concering cat hunting is. if you have a friend with dogs and he has a hunting licence and you have a licence and a cat tag , and you go get one , there nothing wrong with paying for gas or beer or dog food money . the problem would occur if he is chargeing a set kill fee , or taking out a non resident and accepting daily wage or kill fee. booking a hunt so to speak .in a sence he is just the dog handler ,let me put it this way . if i own horses and and some friends wanted me to use my horses to take them elk hunting and i need a little hay money .no big deal . and of course i have a tag too . is that illegal ? ..i mean whats the problem with that ? also i have heard a number of differnt storys about people havening trouble with doing that , cat hunting with there dogs and a question comes up about it . it seems that there is a grey area invovled and also the regs are not clear on what is and isnt illegal ? and it also seems like if i called a C.O. from one area of B.C. and then called one from a differnt area . i would get two differnt explanations. trust me its happend before. i think that some C.O. are not to sure either what the defination of illegal guideing is when it comes to cat hunting . i could be wrong tho and i was thinking about paying him a visit and asking him what the deal is. I myself would like to know what the do and do not is on that subject . The regs should have a clear defination on it .Does anyone know for SURE what the real deal is on cat hunts ?

[Nait Hadya]

i asked the question here in alberta a couple of years ago. if you are both licensed, it is ok. if you tag along to take pictures, it is ok. it is no different than any other type of hunt,share horses,quads,guns,tents,jet boats, trailers,on and on. explain to me now,how it is any different then having your licensed buddies push the bush for you?

[GOLDEN TOP SNIPER]

I can see if the dog handler asks for reward BEFORE the hunt starts ..hunting for profit ..but what i bring some bags of dog food ! ..fill his truck up with gas and buy some beer later whether we get a cat or not !. i havent had the chance to corner the C.O. in town and ask him . I would prefer to know the rule beforehand rather than finding out later that i broke or even bent the rule..the def. in the regs says promised reward or acting as guide for reward.. ok . so i never promised him anything! .. i just decided to buy the beer ! . .