Buck genetics

[Buckmeister]

Either on here or in coversation with others or in magazines...people will often consider a large buck with a great rack that someone has recently killed and will say, "Well I sure hope he was able to pass on his genes before he died".

I wonder if it really makes much of a difference wether a doe is bred by a large antlered mature buck or a small young buck? Although I believe otherwise, maybe genetics plays no role at all in how a bucks rack turns out. Many will agree that proper food and nutrition will produce fabulous racks.

As far as genetics go, (and I'm thinking about white tails) I have witnessed mutiple bucks taken from different locations (aka gene pool) and have noticed a trend in the racks from the different locations. One area tends to produce large wide heavy 4x4 whitetails. Another area produces racks that aren't overly tall or wide but have muliple points, split brows, drop tines, etc. Another area produces bucks who at an early age have very long tines and a basket like cage rack. So judging by that observation, I would say that different locations contain certain gene pools that deliver certain results.

So maybe age plays no role in it either. Perhaps a grand monster buck breeds a doe and he sires a male fawn. In 2 1/2 years time, that fawn breeds a doe and sires another male fawn. I would think that 3rd generation fawn should grow up to eventually become a monster as well even though his father was young when he was conceived. You would also have to consider the genetic lineage of the doe as well. Maybe it's the does genes that decide what the fawns rack will look like.

Just some food for thought. What do you'all think??? :-D

[Shooter]

Genetics are the same whether the breeding buck is 1.5 years old or 5.5 years old. If his genetics are to be huge then thats the genes he passes on. However most people fail to remember that the does genetics make up half of the genes of the sired offspring. So if a genetically superior buck breeds a genetically inferior doe, you may not get a monster buck offspring. Or you may get a small bodied deer with a huge rack.. or vice versa... Its a crap shoot really...lol

[6616]

Either on here or in coversation with others or in magazines...people will often consider a large buck with a great rack that someone has recently killed and will say, "Well I sure hope he was able to pass on his genes before he died".

I wonder if it really makes much of a difference wether a doe is bred by a large antlered mature buck or a small young buck? Although I believe otherwise, maybe genetics plays no role at all in how a bucks rack turns out. Many will agree that proper food and nutrition will produce fabulous racks.

As far as genetics go, (and I'm thinking about white tails) I have witnessed mutiple bucks taken from different locations (aka gene pool) and have noticed a trend in the racks from the different locations. One area tends to produce large wide heavy 4x4 whitetails. Another area produces racks that aren't overly tall or wide but have muliple points, split brows, drop tines, etc. Another area produces bucks who at an early age have very long tines and a basket like cage rack. So judging by that observation, I would say that different locations contain certain gene pools that deliver certain results.

So maybe age plays no role in it either. Perhaps a grand monster buck breeds a doe and he sires a male fawn. In 2 1/2 years time, that fawn breeds a doe and sires another male fawn. I would think that 3rd generation fawn should grow up to eventually become a monster as well even though his father was young when he was conceived. You would also have to consider the genetic lineage of the doe as well. Maybe it's the does genes that decide what the fawns rack will look like.

Just some food for thought. What do you'all think??? :-D

Very interesting topic indeed.

We do know for sure that genetic make-up does not change with age. The genes a buck or doe is born with are the same as he/she dies with. So it looks like producing a trophy buck depends on the right buck breeding the right doe so the correct genetic combination exists in the off-spring. I think this much has already been proven by science and captive breeding programs.

What difference does age make? Genetic are obviously the same but maybe sperm and egg quality decline with age causing non-genetic related weaknesses or defects in the offspring. Why do human parents over 40 years of age have a higher rate of Downs Syndrome among their offspring? So age just might have something to do with it, but almost for sure this is not related to genetics.

Forage quality and weather patterns certainly have a grest deal to do with it. I believe this also has already been demonstrated by scientific experimentation and captive breeding programs, in fact, it looks like food and nutrition plays the most significant role. So I guess it boils down to "the right buck breeding the right doe", "under the right conditions" where superior forage is available. What about stressor factors, does the above also have to happen under circumstances where stressors are at a minimum as well? No wonder trophy animals are so rare.

Another interesting aspect is the results of studies done in regards to antler point restrictions. In many cases where the B & C scores of harvested bucks were recorded, the average size of antlers of the same age class bucks decreased by as much as seven Boone and Crockett points after only five years of APRs. This is almost obviously genetic related since APRs allow the best bucks with the most antler points to become vulnerable at a younger and stupider age which has the potential of culling out the best male-side genetics.

On the other hand APRs may not always mean there's fewer trophy bucks around since APRs reduce harvest levels significantly they could result in a more bucks reaching an older age where they grow their biggest antler set. Not necessarily more trophy class bucks, just more older age class bucks.

Note there's a lot more coulds than woulds in this discussion because the reality is there is more conjecture and theories than hard scientific facts available on this topic.

[snareman1234]

I'm sure Dana or someone has done all kinds of reading on this and has a few answers

[BlacktailStalker]

Genetics dont change with age.
A spike buck is going to produce the same offspring then as he will as a 200"er.

[recoil]

I believe this is why they do "management" hunts in certain areas down south, where the bucks that have not attained a large set of antlers by 3-4 years of age are culled to take them out of the gene pool. The larger bucks are left to breed with the does before they are hunted.

[dana]

In muleys, a spike ain't ever going to be a 200 incher. Good antler genetics are very evident even in the first year of antler growth. A buck that has the genetic potential to be a giant will be a basket 4 in his first year of growth. A first year spike will probably be a forky in his second year. He's just that far behind that he'll never acheive any greatness before he's done. Not all bucks are destined for great antler growth. Genetics does play a huge roll in antler development. Feed, health, minerals, water and age are the other factors that all work together to produce monsters. Given good feed an average muley buck should reach the 170 class if he is able to live long enough. To most people this is a trophy class deer. But to reach that true monster status, a buck has to have the genes from both mom and dad.
The idea of "management" deer in the US is very flawed and can't be acheived in true wild herds. Especially here in BC where there are sooo many factors against a buck living to old age that man is actually the least of his worries.

[6616]

In muleys, a spike ain't ever going to be a 200 incher. Good antler genetics are very evident even in the first year of antler growth. A buck that has the genetic potential to be a giant will be a basket 4 in his first year of growth. A first year spike will probably be a forky in his second year. He's just that far behind that he'll never acheive any greatness before he's done. Not all bucks are destined for great antler growth. Genetics does play a huge roll in antler development. Feed, health, minerals, water and age are the other factors that all work together to produce monsters. Given good feed an average muley buck should reach the 170 class if he is able to live long enough. To most people this is a trophy class deer. But to reach that true monster status, a buck has to have the genes from both mom and dad.
The idea of "management" deer in the US is very flawed and can't be acheived in true wild herds. Especially here in BC where there are sooo many factors against a buck living to old age that man is actually the least of his worries.

I agree, the US concept of quality management is not practical in wild BC deer or elk herds. Harvest just has to be so intensely selective that it's just not possible in any kind of GOS. The basis of quality management is to selectively cull the obvious low quality bucks (spikes) at a young age and allow the majority of bucks to live to max potential age before harvesting. This results in across the board LEH, almost all hunts must be guided, and with such modest harvest levels that it would likely be socially unacceptable to most BC hunters who consider deer hunting to be their bread and butter hunt. There is not much bread and butter in that type of a management regime.

[dana]

Here's an example of a buck that most in the US would call a "management buck". Most would want him out of the gene pool because he's not your 'typical' muley.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/PB120002a.jpg

Fact is this buck is indeed a true monster that has regressed in old age. This buck was a 200 incher back in the winter of 04/05. Probably was 5 years old then. That would put him at 11 when I killed him this year. This buck has bred many a doe over the years and he's definately a buck you want in your herd.
Here's the 104 inch shed off this buck from 04/05
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Shed%20Pics/Apr17006a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/PB130034a.jpg

[6616]

In muleys, a spike ain't ever going to be a 200 incher. Good antler genetics are very evident even in the first year of antler growth. A buck that has the genetic potential to be a giant will be a basket 4 in his first year of growth. A first year spike will probably be a forky in his second year. He's just that far behind that he'll never acheive any greatness before he's done. Not all bucks are destined for great antler growth. Genetics does play a huge roll in antler development. Feed, health, minerals, water and age are the other factors that all work together to produce monsters. Given good feed an average muley buck should reach the 170 class if he is able to live long enough. To most people this is a trophy class deer. But to reach that true monster status, a buck has to have the genes from both mom and dad.
The idea of "management" deer in the US is very flawed and can't be acheived in true wild herds. Especially here in BC where there are sooo many factors against a buck living to old age that man is actually the least of his worries.

This is why the 4pt management strategy employed in some parts of BC is a flawed strategy as far as being a trophy or quality management strategy. In actual fact it was implemented to prevent over-harvest, not to provide quality bucks, but since then it has been considered by many to provide bigger bucks. The 4 pt season for mule deer protects the inferior genetics (spikes and 2 pts) and makes the high quality bucks Dana refers to (1 1/2 year old basket 4 pts) vulnerable with the effect of culling the best genetics. It does work for those folks who just want to harvest a 130 or 140 four point because there's lots of them around and they're renewed every year, but it doesn't produce any more 180 to 200 class quality bucks, in fact it tends to do the opposite. I would think the same holds true for elk and WTD. The 6pt elk management stratgey would probably work better if a spike bull component were added to cull the inferior genetics, but it still wouldn't stop the high-grading of the better genetics (the very young raghorn 6pts) at a young age. The choices are really social rather than biological in these cases, what do hunters want, to manage for quality or quantity?

[Buckmeister]

Thanks Dana....which brings me to my next point....gnarly non-typicals!!! I've heard different theory ranging from bucks that have sustained injury, and bucks that get really old and grow the weirdest antlers.

Case in point, a decade or two back, a family member shot a MASSIVE 2 point buck. He was tall and wide and had plenty of mass, but he was no young deer.

Lets see some pics from you guys who have shot OLD bucks that look a little funny. Or maybe those wicked non-typicals!

[dana]

Here's an example of good genetics, good feed and age all working together.

Summer of 2000. Second year antler growth.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Wildlife%20Pics/IMG_0378.jpg

Summer of 2002. Fourth year antler growth.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Wildlife%20Pics/IMG_0270.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Wildlife%20Pics/IMG_0699.jpg

Summer of 2003. Fifth year antler growth.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Wildlife%20Pics/IMG_0251.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Wildlife%20Pics/IMG_0250.jpg

[6616]

That would put him at 11 when I killed him this year. This buck has bred many a doe over the years and he's definately a buck you want in your herd.

True, but at 11 years of age he's probably done all the good he can do genetically so there's really no loss to the gene pool in harvesting him.

[dana]

Summer 2004, sixth year antler growth. Notice the gnarly 215-220 inch nontypical has cleaned up and become a giant 200 inch typical.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Wildlife%20Pics/IMG_0191.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Wildlife%20Pics/IMG_0647.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Wildlife%20Pics/MatchedSet001a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Wildlife%20Pics/Mar25008a.jpg

[dana]

True, but at 11 years of age he's probably done all the good he can do genetically so there's really no loss to the gene pool in harvesting him.

If I hadn't of killed him, you can be certain he still would of bred a bunch of does the following week. ;) He was in prime condition for being such an old buck. Tastes amazing too. The one thing I noticed though was he had very little body fat on him compared to several other deer I saw harvested this year. If the winter is as tuff as they say it's going to get, I don't think he would have faired well given the lack of fat he had on him.

[Buckmeister]

This is why the 4pt management strategy employed in some parts of BC is a flawed strategy as far as being a trophy or quality management strategy. In actual fact it was implemented to prevent over-harvest, not to provide quality bucks, but since then it has been considered by many to provide bigger bucks. The 4 pt season for mule deer protects the inferior genetics (spikes and 2 pts) and makes the high quality bucks Dana refers to (1 1/2 year old basket 4 pts) vulnerable with the effect of culling the best genetics. It does work for those folks who just want to harvest a 130 or 140 four point because there's lots of them around and they're renewed every year, but it doesn't produce any more 180 to 200 class quality bucks, in fact it tends to do the opposite. I would think the same holds true for elk and WTD. The 6pt elk management stratgey would probably work better if a spike bull component were added to cull the inferior genetics, but it still wouldn't stop the high-grading of the better genetics (the very young raghorn 6pts) at a young age. The choices are really social rather than biological in these cases, what do hunters want, to manage for quality or quantity?

Hmmmmmm. This makes alot of sense. My boy took a 2 point mule with a big body this year. I would say it was a genetically inferior deer (in the antler department). And in a different region in a hard to hunt area I have seen big racks on young bucks with smaller bodies. Maybe a GOS from Sept to Dec for any buck mule deer is in order with extra brownie points given for taking spike and fork horns.

[AT&T]

I understand genetics play a good role in this. In my opinion those deer fed on big ranches in Texas who are fed high energy grains etc is not a good example of what to expect in natural situtions. We have big winters here. that is another factor. To my mind it is food food more food and living long enough to get some mass.

[dana]

This is why the 4pt management strategy employed in some parts of BC is a flawed strategy as far as being a trophy or quality management strategy. In actual fact it was implemented to prevent over-harvest, not to provide quality bucks, but since then it has been considered by many to provide bigger bucks. The 4 pt season for mule deer protects the inferior genetics (spikes and 2 pts) and makes the high quality bucks Dana refers to (1 1/2 year old basket 4 pts) vulnerable with the effect of culling the best genetics. It does work for those folks who just want to harvest a 130 or 140 four point because there's lots of them around and they're renewed every year, but it doesn't produce any more 180 to 200 class quality bucks, in fact it tends to do the opposite. I would think the same holds true for elk and WTD. The 6pt elk management stratgey would probably work better if a spike bull component were added to cull the inferior genetics, but it still wouldn't stop the high-grading of the better genetics (the very young raghorn 6pts) at a young age. The choices are really social rather than biological in these cases, what do hunters want, to manage for quality or quantity?


I think the 4 point season is a good management tool to restrict harvest during the rut. It makes the hunter take that extra time to count points and that time is sometimes all the buck needs to bail. Yes, lots of the good genetic young 4's get killed, but I don't think that is affecting the genetics of the herd. Region 3 is a good example of this. We've had the 4 point or better season for 20 years now. Still plenty of 4's roaming the hills every year with good harvest rates. And Region 3 does pump out some of the biggest bucks every year too.

[dana]

Hmmmmmm. This makes alot of sense. My boy took a 2 point mule with a big body this year. I would say it was a genetically inferior deer (in the antler department). And in a different region in a hard to hunt area I have seen big racks on young bucks with smaller bodies. Maybe a GOS from Sept to Dec for any buck mule deer is in order with extra brownie points given for taking spike and fork horns.

Like I said earlier, some bucks just won't amount to much. Some will never even make it to a 4x4 even given age. We manage the herds well by providing opportunity during the Oct Any Buck seasons. Plenty of deer of all age classes and genetics get harvested during that season. IMO, this season should be expanded to include most of Sept. The current 4 point or better seasons in Sept are very underutilized. They would be far better suited to change the Any Buck season to Sept 10-Oct 30.

[GoatGuy]

Tastes amazing too.

Woaaaaa, tastes good at 11 years old??

Do you use copenhagen as a condiment on your food?

[dana]

Just had a roast tonight. Was amazingly good. Tastes just as delicious as my muley doe.

[snareman1234]

Wow your not kidding when you say you do your homework dana, thats amazing!

[6616]

Talking about antler configurations or possibly disfigurations related to injury rather than genetics, here's an interesting article on cactus bucks. Don't see as many up here where the winters are cold, read this article to find out why.
http://www.kingsoutdoorworld.com/feature/cactus-bucks.shtml

[GoatGuy]

Just had a roast tonight. Was amazingly good. Tastes just as delicious as my muley doe.

How old was the muley doe, 13? :wink:

What does it taste like compared to the wt doe?

[6616]

I think the 4 point season is a good management tool to restrict harvest during the rut. It makes the hunter take that extra time to count points and that time is sometimes all the buck needs to bail. Yes, lots of the good genetic young 4's get killed, but I don't think that is affecting the genetics of the herd. Region 3 is a good example of this. We've had the 4 point or better season for 20 years now. Still plenty of 4's roaming the hills every year with good harvest rates. And Region 3 does pump out some of the biggest bucks every year too.

I do too actually,,,, when it's used for it's intended purpose which is to maintain a GOS while at the same time moderating harvest to sustainable levels. What I don't like is it's over-use driven by input considering it a quality management strategy.

Then again, I guess quality deer means different thing to different folks, and a multitude of 130 to 140 class bucks does represent quality hunting to a lot of folks.

[dana]

Here's another example of genetics and age.

Winter 01/02 Third year antler growth
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/MassNTrash01-02.jpg

Winter 02/03 Fourth year antler growth. Didn't see this buck

Winter 03/04 Fifth year antler growth. Got some very ruff video footage. No still pics. He was easily a 205-210 class NT.

Winter 04/05 Sixth year antler growth. His best year. 225 class NT.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/MnT04-05a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/MnT04-05c.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/Mar13014a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/Mar13016a.jpg

[leadpillproductions]

Dana how can you tell their the same deer The one pic looks like a 4 pointer then the next he's got a ton of junk .Your last post

[Buckmeister]

These may not be the best pics, but hopefully you get the idea of how small this 5x5 whitetail rack really is. In the 1st pick, tho you can't really see, the overall outside to outside measurement is 13 7/8". The longest tine is only 4". And the right side main beam measures about 13" and left at 12". I can wrap my pointy finger completely around each base and I have small hands. No doubt now that this was a very young buck with good genes.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/November_25th_2010_001.jpg
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/November_25th_2010_002.jpg
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/November_25th_2010_003.jpg

[dana]

Winter 05/06 Seventh year antler growth. Lost 20 inches from the year before. 205 NT.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/MassNTrash05-06a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/Mar13019a.jpg

Fall 2006 Eighth year of antler growth. 202 NT.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/Dec11008.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/08630024.jpg

[dana]

Dana how can you tell their the same deer The one pic looks like a 4 pointer then the next he's got a ton of junk .Your last post

He actually has an inline that year that he carried every other year. Here's the shed with the dead buck. Notice the similarities in mainframe and even has the exact curve on the mainbeam.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/Dec11003a.jpg

[leadpillproductions]

I stand corrected thanks for clearing that up for me . Hey i just learned somethin lol

[Salty]

Woaaaaa, tastes good at 11 years old??

Do you use copenhagen as a condiment on your food?

epic :mrgreen::mrgreen:

[6616]

Hmmmmmm. This makes alot of sense. My boy took a 2 point mule with a big body this year. I would say it was a genetically inferior deer (in the antler department). And in a different region in a hard to hunt area I have seen big racks on young bucks with smaller bodies. Maybe a GOS from Sept to Dec for any buck mule deer is in order with extra brownie points given for taking spike and fork horns.

I like that you added the "in the antler department" as that points out that desireable genetcs could mean large bodied rather than large antlered to some folks. Good genetics only means advancing those particular genetic traits that one wants to further ones own objectives, and it certainly means much different things for other species, like domestic cattle for example.

My brother shot a Saskatchewan 207 3/8 non-typical white tailed buck in 1999 that only weighed in at 160 lbs and had feet and left tracks no bigger than an average doe track. He had a huge conglomeration of points on a single large drop tine that came off the antler base (almost but not quite a third antler), and we didn't even realize it until after he was dead on the ground that we knew that buck from previous years and he had never grown non-typical antlers in his life before 1999. Difficult and confusing to figure things out sometimes...!

[leadpillproductions]

I might be wrong but wasn't the milo hanson buck 3 1/2 years old

[dana]

I like that you added the "in the antler department" as that points out that desireable genetcs could mean large bodied rather than large antlered to some folks. Good genetics only means advancing those particular genetic traits that one wants to further ones own objectives, and it certainly means much different things for other species, like domestic cattle for example.

My brother shot a Saskatchewan 207 3/8 non-typical white tailed buck in 1999 that only weighed in at 160 lbs and had feet and left tracks no bigger than an average doe track. He had a huge conglomeration of points on a single large drop tine that came off the antler base (almost but not quite a third antler), and we didn't even realize it until after he was dead on the ground that we knew that buck from previous years and he had never grown non-typical antlers in his life before 1999. Difficult and confusing to figure things out sometimes...!

For some unknown reason we have come up with what "we" think is the best antler characteristics and for the most part that is the B&C scoring system. Nature doesn't care what bucks score. Antlers are a sign of health and the bigger the antlers the more impressive the buck is too the ladies. A doe don't care if he's a 140 3x3 or a 200 inch 9x9. If he's big enough to be the dominate male and can kick ass on the other bucks, she wants him to sire her childern. This fall I saw 1 big ol' buck that was busted off on both sides just below where the eyeguards should have been. He was still rutting and chasing the ladies.

[snareman1234]

What about sexual prime? would any of the bucks dana has pics of decreased in sexual fitness? or do they just keep breeding tons of does?

[6616]

What about sexual prime? would any of the bucks dana has pics of decreased in sexual fitness? or do they just keep breeding tons of does?

It looks to me like most of the bucks Dana has posted pictures of are in their prime and would be at or near their peak in sexual and physical fitness. I don't know if there is such a thing as "sexual" fitness or prime. I suspect a bucks activity during the rut may be more dependent on "physical" ability.

I think any buck that has big antlers and is still physically fit is going to breed lots of does no matter what his age is, especially if he lives where there aren't a lot of big bucks. An older regressed buck can still be pretty big and intimidating to average sized rival bucks, and can also still be fit enough to rut, for example: the buck Dana shot this year.

However, the day might come when their horns are regressed to the point where they don't intimidate the smaller bucks as much, and their fitness may decline to a point that may limit their rutting activity and then he will breed fewer and fewer bucks and possibly stop rutting altogether at some point if he lives long enough. I don't think many bucks actually live to that point in life, and if he does, he's quite likey in his last year of life. A very old buck like that is extremelly vulnerable to winter kill, and all bucks are more vulnerable to winter kill if they wear themselves down during the rut.

[Ltbullken]

I think it would be genetics from both the doe and the buck as well as nutrition. If the buck had an opportunity to breed, it could pass on the genetics. Younger bucks may not get the chance to breed as more mature bucks will scare them off.

[GoatGuy]

What about sexual prime? would any of the bucks dana has pics of decreased in sexual fitness? or do they just keep breeding tons of does?
Good questions, you're probably right, participation probably decreases after reaching a peak. That probably varies depending on harvest, sex ratios and age structure.

[dana]

What about sexual prime? would any of the bucks dana has pics of decreased in sexual fitness? or do they just keep breeding tons of does?

The one buck I posted several year of pics and sheds and eventually killed, was rutting very hard the year I killed him. Many big old bucks don't have to work too hard during the rut. While younger bucks are running with their tongues out, going to a fro just hoping they will get laid, a big buck can actually kick back and relax. Young bucks are the ones that work themselves into a tizzy and actually can burn off all their fat stores while rutting and then be in dire straits come a harsh winter. A big old buck can sleep while he lets the younger bucks do all the foreplay with the does. When the does are ready, the big boy can get up, hook the little bucks in the ass with his antlers and send them on their merry way. He then services the doe that the little bucks warmed up. :)

[mark]

The one buck I posted several year of pics and sheds and eventually killed, was rutting very hard the year I killed him. Many big old bucks don't have to work too hard during the rut. While younger bucks are running with their tongues out, going to a fro just hoping they will get laid, a big buck can actually kick back and relax. Young bucks are the ones that work themselves into a tizzy and actually can burn off all their fat stores while rutting and then be in dire straits come a harsh winter. A big old buck can sleep while he lets the younger bucks do all the foreplay with the does. When the does are ready, the big boy can get up, hook the little bucks in the ass with his antlers and send them on their merry way. He then services the doe that the little bucks warmed up. :)

When I killed the buck in my avtar, it was Nov. 15 (peak rut) he was in his bed, with 15 does all bedded down around him!
The strange part was he showed absolutely no sign of rutting!
He didnt have any bark in his bases, not even the slightest smell to him....even the scent glands on his back legs, had no scent or piss at all! (clean as the rest of his leg hair)

He had all the fat of a september buck!
5 or 6 seasoned hunters all sat around my buddys shop while we skinned him, and we couldnt figure it out????

Your statement kinda explains that scenario!

[Walksalot]

The problem I have with the four point or better season is you are taking the " proof of the pudding" animals out of the gene pool. They are the bucks which we know have all the stuff because there they are. They are the buck which have grown to substantial size, endured the challenges of the rut, out foxed hunters for years and survived the winter. Targeting these animals may very well be a management tool but I don't know if it is a good one.

[snareman1234]

They are the buck which have grown to substantial size, endured the challenges of the rut, out foxed hunters for years and survived the winter.

Dana said


A buck that has the genetic potential to be a giant will be a basket 4 in his first year of growth

But yes your argument still holds, but 4pt does not mean that they have outsmarted hunters for years.

[dana]

The problem I have with the four point or better season is you are taking the " proof of the pudding" animals out of the gene pool. They are the bucks which we know have all the stuff because there they are. They are the buck which have grown to substantial size, endured the challenges of the rut, out foxed hunters for years and survived the winter. Targeting these animals may very well be a management tool but I don't know if it is a good one.

So you think we should target the smaller bucks? Guess what, many of those smaller bucks are young and given age, become the big bucks. Leave the big bucks alone and only harvest the young ones and the big bucks will die from old age, lions or wolves and the young bucks will never grow up to be old because you keep hammering them while they are young. As has been stated by Goatguy numerous times in these threads, we need to harvest from all age classes, and that is exactly what we do. We have 4 point or better seasons and we have Any Buck seasons. Like I said before, the young bucks run around with their tongues hanging out during the rut just hoping to get laid. If you allow for an any buck season during the rut, these young and dumb bucks are what will be harvested. Thus killing off your 'future' big bucks. 4 point or better seasons give the hunter a handicap because he has to take the time to count points. That time can be all a buck needs to clue in and bail. Even during the rut, big ol' bucks are smart. And really, not many are killed every year when you compare to the amount of young bucks killed.

[6616]

The problem I have with the four point or better season is you are taking the " proof of the pudding" animals out of the gene pool. They are the bucks which we know have all the stuff because there they are. They are the buck which have grown to substantial size, endured the challenges of the rut, out foxed hunters for years and survived the winter. Targeting these animals may very well be a management tool but I don't know if it is a good one.

Actually I don't believe this is the case. 4 point bucks come in a wide variety of ages and being a 4 point buck does not mean he has survived or outfoxed anyone "for years", as a matter of fact I'd be willing to bet that 90% of the four points taken each year are less than 4 1/2 years old, and more than half the four points taken each year are very young first year 4 point deer.

No matter what one thinks of APRs (and I don't like them much either) but mule deer bucks are unfortunatelly just too vulnerable to hunting (especially during the rut) not to have some type of control measure over harvest levels. The big old trophy bucks are not easy to hunt but all those young stupid 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year old 4 pointers certainly are and hunters could easily clean them all out each and every year if allowed to.

[GoatGuy]

Actually I don't believe this is the case. 4 point bucks come in a wide variety of ages and being a 4 point buck does not mean he has survived or outfoxed anyone "for years", as a matter of fact I'd be willing to bet that 90% of the four points taken each year are less than 4 1/2 years old, and more than half the four points taken each year are very young first year 4 point deer.

No matter what one thinks of APRs (and I don't like them much either) but mule deer bucks are unfortunatelly just too vulnerable to hunting (especially during the rut) not to have some type of control measure over harvest levels. The big old trophy bucks are not easy to hunt but all those young stupid 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year old 4 pointers certainly are and hunters could easily clean them all out each and every year if allowed to.

Depends on definition of trophy but at three years old you can certainly get into the 170s.

In most areas the hunters do clean out basically everything under 4 years old, just the way it goes.

[leadpillproductions]

I personally like the 4 point rule , It used to be like that up here now 3 pointer . Use to see lots of beig deer it was a blast one of the reasons i moved here

[dana]

Depends on definition of trophy but at three years old you can certainly get into the 170s.

In most areas the hunters do clean out basically everything under 4 years old, just the way it goes.

GG,
What kind of hogwash statement is that? If everything under 4 was cleaned out all that would be left the next year would be yearling bucks. Don't give hunters too much credit. A ton of bucks (even young and dumb ones) make it through hunting season. How many hunters are in this province again?

[hunter1947]

My opinion is that hunters don't get back into the bush far enough to harvest many deer many are to lazy and would rather drive the roads there for leaving many bucks to see the next season :wink:..

[6616]

I personally like the 4 point rule , It used to be like that up here now 3 pointer . Use to see lots of beig deer it was a blast one of the reasons i moved here

So if one cleans most of the small 4 pointers every year, where all the truely big and old bucks going to come from? You're then limiting yourself to 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year old first year four pointers that never reach their full potential, some might be fair sized all right but they're still young bucks.

With harvest across more age classes maybe there will be higher escapement of those young 4pt bucks allowing some to reach older ages.

I guess it depends on what one calls a big buck, and what one thinks is good buck hunting,,,, is it a new crop of 130 to 150 first year 4 pt bucks every year with maybe a handful of 160 and perhaps the odd 170 with little potential beyond that age, or do we want a few to last long enough to get to the 180 to 200 size class of buck?

What's better for the health of the herd, harvest across a broader range of age classes, or virtual elimination of a complete age class each and every year?

[hunter1947]

I call it a crock hunters will never clean out a region of any kind of animal there is so much untouched land that hunters will never touch in a hunting season..

[dana]

Again, what's with the 'virtual elimination of a couple of age class each and every year' statements? You guys give hunters way way too much credit. Again, how many hunters do we have in this province? And how big is this province? TONS OF PLACES FOR EVEN YOUNG AND DUMB DEER TO HIDE!

[dana]

Again I will hold Region 3 up as the shinning example of good deer management. Doug Jury really knows what he is doing. Longest muley seasons in the province. Sept 1-Dec 10th. The late 4 point of better season has been going on for 20 years now. Region 3 has high hunter numbers because of it's proximity to the Lower Mainland and the Okanagan. Hunter success is pretty high. And yet we pump out some of the biggest and badest muleys each and every year. We are harvesting from all age classes and we are not seeing the dreaded so-called 3 point genetic taking hold. You would think after 20 years, if it wasn't working, we would be seeing the ill effects of the 4 point season by now.

[6616]

My opinion is that hunters don't get back into the bush far enough to harvest many deer many are to lazy and would rather drive the roads there for leaving many bucks to see the next season :wink:..

Wayne, I think there's a lot of truth in that statement during the early part of the season, and more true in Region 4 and 8 where the rifle GOS ends in mid November and the bucks aren't hunted throughout the entire rut. Also in R4 we have a lot of big wild mountainous country, bigger mountains with lots of high cover summer and pre-rut ranges. In most of the Central Interior, mule deer summer ranges are more open, at lower elevations, and more accessible than in R4.

So,,, what about in Region 3 and 5 where the mulie bucks are hunted all the way through the rut until the end of November or into December? I think in many areas in R3 and R5 the bucks aren't back in the bush anymore at that time of year, they're in the rutting areas with the does and in a much more vulnerable position while the rifle GOS season is still open. Without a 4pt reg or some type of control measure the buck harvest could be very high, maybe too high....?

I agree with you as far as the early season goes, but as much as I hate APRs, I don't think we could hunt mule deer sustainably during the rut without them.

[6616]

Again, what's with the 'virtual elimination of a couple of age class each and every year' statements?

I actually believe it does happen to some extent in some of those popular easy access areas where most hunters spend their time, but certainly not all over the entire mule deer range. There will probably always be the tougher, thicker timbered, higher elevation and remote areas in all regions where hunting pressure is not substantial, and these areas will always harbor big old bucks and that should hopefully maintain the overall gene pool. That's good for the deer herd and good for serious trophy hunters and I'll bet guys like yourself tend to be drawn to those tough to hunt remoter areas.

It seems though that mule deer will be, and probably should be, managed for those highly hunted areas where most hunters spend their time afield and thus equate what they see there as being province wide (or at least region wide) conditions. Hunters want certain conditions to exist where most of them spend most of their time and that public input partially drives regulations (I don't see anything wrong with that), and we do need to ensure we don't just shoot he crap out of those type of areas.

[6616]

Again I will hold Region 3 up as the shinning example of good deer management. Doug Jury really knows what he is doing. Longest muley seasons in the province. Sept 1-Dec 10th. The late 4 point of better season has been going on for 20 years now. Region 3 has high hunter numbers because of it's proximity to the Lower Mainland and the Okanagan. Hunter success is pretty high. And yet we pump out some of the biggest and badest muleys each and every year. We are harvesting from all age classes and we are not seeing the dreaded so-called 3 point genetic taking hold. You would think after 20 years, if it wasn't working, we would be seeing the ill effects of the 4 point season by now.

I agree, Doug is one of the best in the province and would like to see him in charge of mule deer management across the entire southern interior. But don't forget R3 also has very good habitat, milder and shorter winters than R4 and R5, and no competition from elk like in R4, or from white tailed deer like in R4 and R8. There's no question it's the prime mule deer habitat region in the province.

Also as you say you have always been harvesting from all age classes and that's why genetics are not being affected, and I agree the 4pt season is necessary to hunt sustainably during the rut and I support that.

Basically what I'm speaking against is the entire season being 4pt only like it used to be in R4, that's when genetics could suffer.

Another issue in R4 are the elk seasons, from Sept 10th to Oct 20th R4 has some of the highest hunter density in the province, and all these elk hunters place a significant amount of secondary pressure on mule deer, that's why mule deer are also on a 4pt regulation here during the peak part of the elk rut.

[hunter1947]

I agree, Doug is one of the best in the province and would like to see him in charge of mule deer management across the entire southern interior. But don't forget R3 also has very good habitat, milder and shorter winters than R4 and R5, and no competition from elk like in R4, or from white tailed deer like in R4 and R8. There's no question it's the prime mule deer habitat region in the province.

Also as you say you have always been harvesting from all age classes and that's why genetics are not being affected, and I agree the 4pt season is necessary to hunt sustainably during the rut and I support that.

Basically what I'm speaking against is the entire season being 4pt only like it used to be in R4, that's when genetics could suffer.

Another issue in R4 are the elk seasons, from Sept 10th to Oct 20th R4 has some of the highest hunter density in the province, and all these elk hunters place a significant amount of secondary pressure on mule deer, that's why mule deer are also on a 4pt regulation here during the peak part of the elk rut.


Andy your statement is very clear regarding the mule deer 4 point season in R4 its a good thing that they the management did not open up any antlered mule deer during Sept month and left it till Oct first http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif..

[Walksalot]

So you think we should target the smaller bucks? Guess what, many of those smaller bucks are young and given age, become the big bucks. Leave the big bucks alone and only harvest the young ones and the big bucks will die from old age, lions or wolves and the young bucks will never grow up to be old because you keep hammering them while they are young. As has been stated by Goatguy numerous times in these threads, we need to harvest from all age classes, and that is exactly what we do. We have 4 point or better seasons and we have Any Buck seasons. Like I said before, the young bucks run around with their tongues hanging out during the rut just hoping to get laid.
If you allow for an any buck season during the rut, these young and dumb bucks are what will be harvested. Thus killing off your 'future' big bucks. 4 point or better seasons give the hunter a handicap because he has to take the time to count points. That time can be all a buck needs to clue in and bail. Even during the rut, big ol' bucks are smart. And really, not many are killed every year when you compare to the amount of young bucks killed.

I think it would be safe to say that if it were not for the hunting season extending into the rut most of these bigger "proof of the pudding" bucks would never be taken. There are a few pictures of hunters taking large bucks in the early season but the vast majority of the impressively large animals are taken in the latter part of the season when caution is thrown to the wind.

[GoatGuy]

GG,
What kind of hogwash statement is that? If everything under 4 was cleaned out all that would be left the next year would be yearling bucks. Don't give hunters too much credit. A ton of bucks (even young and dumb ones) make it through hunting season. How many hunters are in this province again?

shouldn't have said most areas. The areas that are easily accessed with lots of hunters will have most 4 pts+ shot before the season is over. With 20 bucks:100 does and a 4 pts season that's just what happens - there's very few older aged bucks that make it through the season. Under a non-selective strategy and the same ratio you'll end up with more older aged bucks.

Same with elk in a couple of the spots in the EK. There's a few areas where there are virtually no 6 pts that make it through the hunting season.

It isn't a big deal or anything 'conservation related', just what happens.

[GoatGuy]

I think it would be safe to say that if it were not for the hunting season extending into the rut most of these bigger "proof of the pudding" bucks would never be taken. There are a few pictures of hunters taking large bucks in the early season but the vast majority of the impressively large animals are taken in the latter part of the season when caution is thrown to the wind.

That's what they thought in the states. Worked for a couple years but hunters just put more time in outside of the rut and figured out how to find the big boys earlier in the season. Could be they have more hard hunters in the US than we do in BC, who knows?

[Walksalot]

That's what they thought in the states. Worked for a couple years but hunters just put more time in outside of the rut and figured out how to find the big boys earlier in the season. Could be they have more hard hunters in the US than we do in BC, who knows?


I would think that the success rate on harvesting these larger bucks would drop dramatically after the first shots of the first day as it is a conditioned response by the larger bucks to go nocturnal until the rut and then it is a free for all.

[dana]

Walksalot,
How many big bucks do you think are killed in this province every year? For truly 180+ typicals it ain't much more than a hand-full per Region per year. The 200+ inch NTs it ain't much more than a hand-full or 2 for the entire province per year. It ain't that BC doesn't have the big boys. It's just that the hunting here is actually far far more tuffer than that of Alta or Sask or most areas in the States. Why? Basically it has a lot to do with the fact we have large expanses of wilderness with trees. :) There are a few select hunters that seem to get r done on the Big Boys consistantly in this province. Don't be fooled that their sucess comes easy. If the rut hunt were to be dropped, these same hunters would still be killing monsters.

[dana]

shouldn't have said most areas. The areas that are easily accessed with lots of hunters will have most 4 pts+ shot before the season is over. With 20 bucks:100 does and a 4 pts season that's just what happens - there's very few older aged bucks that make it through the season. Under a non-selective strategy and the same ratio you'll end up with more older aged bucks.

Same with elk in a couple of the spots in the EK. There's a few areas where there are virtually no 6 pts that make it through the hunting season.

It isn't a big deal or anything 'conservation related', just what happens.

You are actually talking very very small scale. Every area has that Sweet spot where the vast amounts of hunters seem to congregate. There is a road system above my house that is indeed just that. A ton of hunters and a ton of deer shot if we get the snows to push the deer down into this area. But being the avid shed hunter I am, I know full well of how many 4 points still make it through each year. Much more than you would ever expect. I think many hunters just don't get to look at more of the picture than their own personal experience. They hunt a spot and it's tuff hunting, they don't see much for game, so therefore the deer numbers must be low or they are seeing lots of does, spikes and forkeys but very few 4 points, so therefore all the 4 points must have been shot. If you actually were to do what I do and post-season scout and shed hunt those areas, you'll find the bucks were there, and a lot make it through the hoards of hunters.

[digger dogger]

Dana, heres a question maybe you can answer for me.
If a mulie has a 3 pt configuration will that buck always stay 3 pt?
I've heard yes, but I don't know!

[dana]

I agree, Doug is one of the best in the province and would like to see him in charge of mule deer management across the entire southern interior. But don't forget R3 also has very good habitat, milder and shorter winters than R4 and R5, and no competition from elk like in R4, or from white tailed deer like in R4 and R8. There's no question it's the prime mule deer habitat region in the province.

Also as you say you have always been harvesting from all age classes and that's why genetics are not being affected, and I agree the 4pt season is necessary to hunt sustainably during the rut and I support that.

Basically what I'm speaking against is the entire season being 4pt only like it used to be in R4, that's when genetics could suffer.

Another issue in R4 are the elk seasons, from Sept 10th to Oct 20th R4 has some of the highest hunter density in the province, and all these elk hunters place a significant amount of secondary pressure on mule deer, that's why mule deer are also on a 4pt regulation here during the peak part of the elk rut.

Did you notice that Doug was the only one with balls enough to really deal with the whitetails this year. 3 deer limit with a 2 whitetail limit, 1 buck 1 doe. The rest of the Regions held to the 2 deer limit. Hunters being antler driven will target a muley buck and a whitetail buck. Meanwhile in Region 3 you could shoot a doe without sacrificing one of your buck tags. And I can tell ya first hand, there were plenty of guys trying to target those does. Those little buggers sure know how to hide when they get some pressure on them. But I know of numerous doe harvests, so if the season continues for several years, it should keep the rats at bay.

As for elk, we are seeing them more and more in Region 3. This year I saw a bull in an area that I've been hunting for almost 20 years and there is no history of elk ever being there. In a way I'd like the elk to grow into huntable herds, but in a way I hope they don't as I know the impact elk have on muleys. I just hope that if they ever do gain a hold here that someone like Doug will be at the reins and will deal with them before they become a problem.

[dana]

Dana, heres a question maybe you can answer for me.
If a mulie has a 3 pt configuration will that buck always stay 3 pt?
I've heard yes, but I don't know!

Not true.
Lots of 3 points in the first year of growth. They still have pretty darn good genetics and if given age can turn into some pretty damn big bucks. When I said a true monster is a 4 point basket in his first year, I'm talking bucks that have the potential to be 190+ typicals or 215-230+ nontypicals. A bigger first year forky or 3 point still have the potential to be those 180+ bucks if they are given age, good eats and good minerals.

When it comes to older 3 points, 3 or 4 year olds, they probably won't be much more but still can throw a 3x4 on the mainframe or a cheater ect. I've seen some older 3x3's, 6-10 year olds that are freakin hawgs. Saw one this season that was an absolute giant. Huge mains and G4's and giant 20+ inch dagger G2's.

[Gamebuster]

shouldn't have said most areas. The areas that are easily accessed with lots of hunters will have most 4 pts+ shot before the season is over. With 20 bucks:100 does and a 4 pts season that's just what happens - there's very few older aged bucks that make it through the season. Under a non-selective strategy and the same ratio you'll end up with more older aged bucks.

Same with elk in a couple of the spots in the EK. There's a few areas where there are virtually no 6 pts that make it through the hunting season.

It isn't a big deal or anything 'conservation related', just what happens.

even some of the hardest hit, open mule deer habitat in region 3 and 5 for that matter has young 4 pt bucks escaping the season. Hunters ain't as a good as many of you are claiming them to be.

[digger dogger]

Not true.
Lots of 3 points in the first year of growth. They still have pretty darn good genetics and if given age can turn into some pretty damn big bucks. When I said a true monster is a 4 point basket in his first year, I'm talking bucks that have the potential to be 190+ typicals or 215-230+ nontypicals. A bigger first year forky or 3 point still have the potential to be those 180+ bucks if they are given age, good eats and good minerals.

When it comes to older 3 points, 3 or 4 year olds, they probably won't be much more but still can throw a 3x4 on the mainframe or a cheater ect. I've seen some older 3x3's, 6-10 year olds that are freakin hawgs. Saw one this season that was an absolute giant. Huge mains and G4's and giant 20+ inch dagger G2's.

Thank-you, for the reply, makes sense! :-)

[6616]

Did you notice that Doug was the only one with balls enough to really deal with the whitetails this year. 3 deer limit with a 2 whitetail limit, 1 buck 1 doe. The rest of the Regions held to the 2 deer limit. Hunters being antler driven will target a muley buck and a whitetail buck. Meanwhile in Region 3 you could shoot a doe without sacrificing one of your buck tags. And I can tell ya first hand, there were plenty of guys trying to target those does. Those little buggers sure know how to hide when they get some pressure on them. But I know of numerous doe harvests, so if the season continues for several years, it should keep the rats at bay.

As for elk, we are seeing them more and more in Region 3. This year I saw a bull in an area that I've been hunting for almost 20 years and there is no history of elk ever being there. In a way I'd like the elk to grow into huntable herds, but in a way I hope they don't as I know the impact elk have on muleys. I just hope that if they ever do gain a hold here that someone like Doug will be at the reins and will deal with them before they become a problem.

Yes I noticed, but in defence of the Region 4 biologists, I think the reason they did not increase the regional bag limit for deer to 3 (like we recommended) was to mitigate the harvest of mule deer in the new any buck season which we had here for the first time in decades, and that new season was making the overly conservative biologists as well as many hunters very nervous.

I think we need to isolate the WTD and MD bag limits in BC and do away with the multi-species deer bag limit. That way we could manage each species independently without worrying about the implications to the other species. We could maintain a one or two MD bag limit (or whatever is sustainable depending on the region) and have a WTD bag limit of 3, 6, 20, or what ever it takes to control that population. Unfortunatelly I suspect there may not be enough hunters or enough interest in hunting antlerless WTD to increase the harvest to the level that would be required.

Region 4 had a GOS on antlerless elk and doe whiteys and a lot of these were taken. The elk situation will be brought under control eventually, but it's questionable with the whiteys. The single biggest mistake made in R4 with elk and whiteys and with whiteys in R8 was letting the situation get out of hand in the first place, and that's something Doug appears determined not to allow. With whiteys once things get to that point it's a slippery slope and almost impossible to correct with hunting and current hunter numbers, the only thing that will correct the whitey balance now is a winter die-off which could well happen this year.

[GoatGuy]

You are actually talking very very small scale. Every area has that Sweet spot where the vast amounts of hunters seem to congregate. There is a road system above my house that is indeed just that. A ton of hunters and a ton of deer shot if we get the snows to push the deer down into this area. But being the avid shed hunter I am, I know full well of how many 4 points still make it through each year. Much more than you would ever expect. I think many hunters just don't get to look at more of the picture than their own personal experience. They hunt a spot and it's tuff hunting, they don't see much for game, so therefore the deer numbers must be low or they are seeing lots of does, spikes and forkeys but very few 4 points, so therefore all the 4 points must have been shot. If you actually were to do what I do and post-season scout and shed hunt those areas, you'll find the bucks were there, and a lot make it through the hoards of hunters.

Yes small scale, not 'mu wide'. I just deal with the numbers and at 20:100 and a 4 pts season there ain't much left, it's just the way the age works out.

[GoatGuy]

I would think that the success rate on harvesting these larger bucks would drop dramatically after the first shots of the first day as it is a conditioned response by the larger bucks to go nocturnal until the rut and then it is a free for all.

From what I recall the harvest actually went up in October, which is surprising as the home range usually shrinks right down to nothing.

Just got to figure out where they are. In BC we're fortunate cause we can hunt the rut and we know where the deer are. In other areas they aren't that fortunate so they have to figure out where the big bucks are without four-legged bait.

Deer or bucks don't go 'nocturnal', because of the way they're set up they need to eat half the day or better, so they're up and eating, just not where you can see them. :wink:

[mark]

I think we need to isolate the WTD and MD bag limits in BC and do away with the multi-species deer bag limit. That way we could manage each species independently without worrying about the implications to the other species. We could maintain a one or two MD bag limit (or whatever is sustainable depending on the region) and have a WTD bag limit of 3, 6, 20, or what ever it takes to control that population. Unfortunatelly I suspect there may not be enough hunters or enough interest in hunting antlerless WTD to increase the harvest to the level that would be required.

Region 4 had a GOS on antlerless elk and doe whiteys and a lot of these were taken. The elk situation will be brought under control eventually, but it's questionable with the whiteys. The single biggest mistake made in R4 with elk and whiteys and with whiteys in R8 was letting the situation get out of hand in the first place, and that's something Doug appears determined not to allow. With whiteys once things get to that point it's a slippery slope and almost impossible to correct with hunting and current hunter numbers, the only thing that will correct the whitey balance now is a winter die-off which could well happen this year.

Like Dana said, the antler driven guys, (which alot are) wont sacrifice their buck opportunity's for a doe...most every hunter Ive spoken too feels this way!!!!
If we were allowed a 3 deer limit like region 3, both the wife and I would of both dropped a whitey doe.... having that easy meat in the freezer would also allow people to be even more selective about the bucks they harvest, thus saving a few bucks!

6616 you think hunters could not reduce the whitey population???? WTF ????? Not with the currant regulation, but how many would you like to see killed???? Myself I could of killed over 100 easily, and Im a crappy whitey hunter!!!!!
Let us have atter and hunters could do some serious damage, I know I certainly could!

[AT&T]

This might be a bit off the topic regarding straight genetics. In whitetails if the doe to buck ratio is too high it makes for hard hunting in the rut. I know it sounds strange. One would think the more deer the better right. If there is too many does per (adult) buck the need to scrap becomes limited. Simply why fight for what you have anyway. In the wk we had still have that problem despite an open doe season. Too many guys here wont kill does. Period. Just like a cabaret at closing time. If there is one guy for every 20 girls all you have to do is stand in the thicket and you will get action.

[Ambush]

6616 you think hunters could not reduce the whitey population???? WTF ????? Not with the currant regulation, but how many would you like to see killed????

Funny thing. Lot's of Koot and OK folks claim they want all the whiteys killed and good riddance.
But ask on here where an outsider can easily kill one and all you get is "... wear out some shoe leather".

I don't the have inclination to drive eight hours and "put in my time" for a whitey doe. But for just some fun bow hunting and a bag of good meat for the freezer I would make the drive.
Two years ago I drove all the way to Saskatoon to hunt for 1 1/2 days.

But more on topic. Of course genetics are important. You can feed a midget all you want, but he will never become Hulk Hogan.

Most areas with good densities should allow at least one buck and one doe. The buck or doe likely adds MORE pressure to buck harvest. Many people who wouldn't otherwise shoot a doe may when they know they still have a chance at a buck also. But the pressure is off and they may not hunt as hard to kill that buck. And some will only pull the trigger on a wall hanger.
Bottom line; if you have too many deer, liberalize the season. And let hunters shoot a big two point instead of forcing him to shoot a young basket four point.

[dana]

I heard the talk on here in the spring that guys wouldn't focus on whitetail does because guys somehow have some pride issue regarding flatheads. While the other Regions couldn't get their $hit together, Region 3 opened it up for 2 whitetails with the doe harvest not cutting into the buck harvest of either whitetails or muleys. And low and behold, guys came out of the wood work to hunt those rascal flatheads. It's about time the other Regions started following Region 3's lead.

[mark]

While the other Regions couldn't get their $hit together, Region 3 opened it up for 2 whitetails with the doe harvest not cutting into the buck harvest of either whitetails or muleys. And low and behold, guys came out of the wood work to hunt those rascal flatheads. It's about time the other Regions started following Region 3's lead.

X2!!!!!! why the heck should we have to "waste gas" to travel to another region, to get a third deer????

[6616]

6616 you think hunters could not reduce the whitey population???? WTF ????? Not with the currant regulation, but how many would you like to see killed???? Myself I could of killed over 100 easily, and Im a crappy whitey hunter!!!!!
Let us have atter and hunters could do some serious damage, I know I certainly could!

Funny thing is after the antlerless GOS was open for a while in R4 the does suddenly got very careful and skittish and were a little harder to hunt. Many other jurisdictions in North America agree that hunting cannot reduce or stabilize the WTD populations by itself.

In R4 we shoot about 4000 to 5000 WTD bucks per year, we have about 20 bucks per 100 does and probably a recruitment of nearly 50 fawns per 100 does each spring. To stabilize the herd we'd have to be shooting a huge number of does and fawns. Alberta shoots 20% of it's bucks and 10% of it's does each year and their WTD population still continues to expand. There are five times as many does as bucks, 10% of the doe population would be a much greater number than 20% of the buck population, can we shoot 10,000 or more does and fawns per year? Do the math and you'll see that's quite possibly what would be required.

No one wants to eliminate the WTD population but it needs to be stabilized at a acceptable number. People seem to want more mule deer but forget that the winter ranges in R4 at nearly at 100% carrying capacity with elk and WTD, where will the new mule deer live, where will they winter? The only way to get more mule deer is to have fewer WTD and elk. All three species need to be kept in porportion and at the correct ratio to each other and also within the range carrying capacity. The unprecedented high population of WTD in R4 is currently upsetting that balance.

[mark]

Funny thing is after the antlerless GOS was open for a while in R4 the does suddenly got very careful and skittish and were a little harder to hunt. Many other jurisdictions in North America agree that hunting cannot reduce or stabilize the WTD populations by itself.

In R4 we shoot about 4000 to 5000 WTD bucks per year, we have about 20 bucks per 100 does and probably a recruitment of nearly 50 fawns per 100 does each spring. To stabilize the herd we'd have to be shooting a huge number of does and fawns. Alberta shoots 20% of it's bucks and 10% of it's does each year and their WTD population still continues to expand. There are five times as many does as bucks, 10% of the doe population would be a much greater number than 20% of the buck population, can we shoot 10,000 or more does and fawns per year? Do the math and you'll see that's quite possibly what would be required.

No one wants to eliminate the WTD population but it needs to be stabilized at a acceptable number. People seem to want more mule deer but forget that the winter ranges in R4 at nearly at 100% carrying capacity with elk and WTD, where will the new mule deer live, where will they winter? The only way to get more mule deer is to have fewer WTD and elk. All three species need to be kept in porportion and at the correct ratio to each other and also within the range carrying capacity. The unprecedented high population of WTD in R4 is currently upsetting that balance.

So you think that if were wide open season, on any whitey, with no bag limit, that hunters could not control the population????
Is that what your suggesting??????

Personally I call BS, give hunters a chance and we'd put a pretty big dent in them!
We wiped out the buffalo once as history recalls! :-D

[dana]

I agree that the situation in 8 and 4 isn't very promising when it comes to whitetail control. That is why I thought it odd that they didn't follow suit with Region 3. The 3 deer limit encourages hunters to stay home and hunt their backyards and they can still be selective hunters when it comes to bucks but can also put meat in the freezer when it comes to does. By only having the option of either/or in 8 and 4 means many hunters ignore the does and pursue bucks like they always have done. Thus the doe season is not acheiving the desired goal.
Given the situation you describe, a more aggressive approach is definately needed. If you are going to try to use hunters as a management tool, they you have to be handing out far far more tags to get even the smallest results. Perhaps they need to have special meat hunter focused seasons that allow for extra does to be shot on top of the 3 deer provincial baglimit. Perhaps a 2 doe season in Dec and Jan like they did in the Peace a few years back?
You are right though, the only way really out of the mess 8 and 4 are in is a huge winter kill. The thing is, the muleys probably would receive the worst blow if that happens.

[6616]

So you think that if were wide open season, on any whitey, with no bag limit, that hunters could not control the population????
Is that what your suggesting??????

Personally I call BS, give hunters a chance and we'd put a pretty big dent in them!
We wiped out the buffalo once as history recalls! :-D

Well within reason of course,,,,,,,, I'm thinking it's a possibility, at least it would be very difficult, after all how many WTD would you be willing to eat every year...how far from home would you travel to shoot a whitey doe...how easy would it be to shoot a whitey doe after they've been hunted real hard for a season or two...???

[6616]

You are right though, the only way really out of the mess 8 and 4 are in is a huge winter kill. The thing is, the muleys probably would receive the worst blow if that happens.

Yup, it won't be fun to lose a whack of mulies, elk, moose and bighorn sheep. So much for all the recruitment/retention seasons then...!

Sure would have been nice to get those R4 populations down below carrying capacity before this winter if it's going to be as bad as predicted.

[Gateholio]

So you think that if were wide open season, on any whitey, with no bag limit, that hunters could not control the population????
Is that what your suggesting??????

Personally I call BS, give hunters a chance and we'd put a pretty big dent in them!
We wiped out the buffalo once as history recalls! :-D

The buffalo were really eliminated by the US Cavalry, destroying buffalo herds to squeeze Indians food supply. :-D

But this is a great discussion, and it's great to have these quality discussions...

Hunters often seem to think killing "girls" is a bad thing, but the easterners kill as many WT does as possible, and the population keeps growing in some areas!

[hunter1947]

Like Dana said, the antler driven guys, (which alot are) wont sacrifice their buck opportunity's for a doe...most every hunter Ive spoken too feels this way!!!!
If we were allowed a 3 deer limit like region 3, both the wife and I would of both dropped a whitey doe.... having that easy meat in the freezer would also allow people to be even more selective about the bucks they harvest, thus saving a few bucks!

6616 you think hunters could not reduce the whitey population???? WTF ????? Not with the currant regulation, but how many would you like to see killed???? Myself I could of killed over 100 easily, and Im a crappy whitey hunter!!!!!
Let us have atter and hunters could do some serious damage, I know I certainly could!


Yes Yes you are right there Mark I no next year there will be a big WT buck I will post on this site no little dinky WT doe on the ground.

I got confused this year on the bag limit for WT bucks and mule deer bucks guess you call it getting old ,Region 4 I thought I could shoot one WT doe one WT buck and One mule deer buck wrong :icon_frow.

Me coming from the island to hunt in the EK every year I always could take a couple island deer and did not think of the two bag deer limit in the EK..

Next year in region 4 it will be one mule buck one WT buck the WT doe will live to see a new year..http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif..

[AT&T]

Okay I have a question for you game managers. If you have lets say 100 whitetail deer in an area. How many are bucks. How many are mature. I would be interested to get your response.

[CanuckShooter]

Did you notice that Doug was the only one with balls enough to really deal with the whitetails this year. 3 deer limit with a 2 whitetail limit, 1 buck 1 doe. The rest of the Regions held to the 2 deer limit. Hunters being antler driven will target a muley buck and a whitetail buck. Meanwhile in Region 3 you could shoot a doe without sacrificing one of your buck tags. And I can tell ya first hand, there were plenty of guys trying to target those does. Those little buggers sure know how to hide when they get some pressure on them. But I know of numerous doe harvests, so if the season continues for several years, it should keep the rats at bay.

As for elk, we are seeing them more and more in Region 3. This year I saw a bull in an area that I've been hunting for almost 20 years and there is no history of elk ever being there. In a way I'd like the elk to grow into huntable herds, but in a way I hope they don't as I know the impact elk have on muleys. I just hope that if they ever do gain a hold here that someone like Doug will be at the reins and will deal with them before they become a problem.

7a has the three deer limit.....1md buck, 1 wt buck, 1 wt doe.....Doug isn't the only one with balls....:wink:

[dana]

7A went with the Private Land rule even for youth, which I think was a step backwards from what they had before.

[6616]

Okay I have a question for you game managers. If you have lets say 100 whitetail deer in an area. How many are bucks. How many are mature. I would be interested to get your response.

It depends on the time of year and the buck/doe and fawn/doe ratios, but if you have 20 bucks per 100 does and 40 fawns per 100 does which is a likely February/March scenario, you would have about 12.5 bucks, 25 fawns, and 62.5 does per 100 deer, with something like 120+ unborn fawns (half male, half female) ready to drop in May/June. The annual population cycle will thus swing between 100 (late spring) and 200+ (early summer) depending on the time of year.

The age structure of the bucks depends on the management regime and would differ if it were a 4pt only season compared to an any buck season. In most cases 40% or more are going to be yearlings and 50% or more are going to be 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year olds. Probably 10% or thereabouts will be 4 1/2 and older bucks and I would guess that less than 1% will be 180+ class bucks but that depends on forage quality, weather conditions, minerals, and genetics, all of which varies from one area of the province to the other.

This scenario represents an expanding herd. A stable herd would have about 25 to 30 fawns per 100 does surviving to recruitment age. More than that the herd is expanding, less than that the herd is likely declining. The numbers would be a little different for mule deer as they have higher winter survivability rate and and a lower reproduction rate than WTD. In ideal conditions a WTD doe will drop 2.5 fawns per year on average and a MD doe about 2.2 fawns per year. Also WTD female yearlings nearly all get reproduce while very few MD female yearlings reproduce. In both cases the mortality rate and predation losses of these newborns during their first couple of weeks of life is extremelly high.

[mark]

Well within reason of course,,,,,,,, I'm thinking it's a possibility, at least it would be very difficult, after all how many WTD would you be willing to eat every year...how far from home would you travel to shoot a whitey doe...how easy would it be to shoot a whitey doe after they've been hunted real hard for a season or two...???

Well if ANYONE in the "rule making/management dept" agrees with your line of thinking, why wouldnt we at least have more liberal seasons and higher bag limits????????????
I certainly wouldnt go out of my way to kill does, but I could take lots of easy ones and give them to lots of friends who would appreciate it!

When it gets to the point where hunters cant even find a doe, well then I dont think theres a overpopulation problem anymore!

Saying that "winterkill" is the only thing that will fix the situation, is simply insane, from a practical point of view!

If any regional Bio believes that why not open an extra 2 doe limit right now for every hunter???? I could go whack mine and be home before dark! :-D

[Islandeer]

Were I hunt whities near Newgate in the EK we are over run with them. Way too many does,real easy to see 100 in a day. Body sizes are getting smaller too, and dinkey little spikes, a sign of too many deer and not enough good groceries.

So a 2 doe all season limit would help. We all know a winter kill correction is likely coming. Then the real crying will start and we will manage again to the point of over abundance.

Cyclic shit ... remember 1996?

[dukester]

Bucks bucks bucks thats all you think really has the genetics to produce those huge antlers??? Dudes the Does hold 50% of the genetic make up of a bucks genes.

[leadpillproductions]

What about you have to shoot a doe first then a buck , some place's in the states do it that way.

[Buckmeister]

What about you have to shoot a doe first then a buck , some place's in the states do it that way.

Sounds like a strategy to me. Meat hunters would probably prefer a doe anyways. And antler hunters can't get their "fix" until after a doe is down.

[6616]

Bucks bucks bucks thats all you think really has the genetics to produce those huge antlers??? Dudes the Does hold 50% of the genetic make up of a bucks genes.

I think we all know that,,, but you can't "see" the genetics on a doe so you couldn't selectively hunt does to improve the antler genetics like is possible with bucks.

[AT&T]

It depends on the time of year and the buck/doe and fawn/doe ratios, but if you have 20 bucks per 100 does and 40 fawns per 100 does which is a likely February/March scenario, you would have about 12.5 bucks, 25 fawns, and 62.5 does per 100 deer, with something like 120+ unborn fawns (half male, half female) ready to drop in May/June. The annual population cycle will thus swing between 100 (late spring) and 200+ (early summer) depending on the time of year.

The age structure of the bucks depends on the management regime and would differ if it were a 4pt only season compared to an any buck season. In most cases 40% or more are going to be yearlings and 50% or more are going to be 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year olds. Probably 10% or thereabouts will be 4 1/2 and older bucks and I would guess that less than 1% will be 180+ class bucks but that depends on forage quality, weather conditions, minerals, and genetics, all of which varies from one area of the province to the other.

This scenario represents an expanding herd. A stable herd would have about 25 to 30 fawns per 100 does surviving to recruitment age. More than that the herd is expanding, less than that the herd is likely declining. The numbers would be a little different for mule deer as they have higher winter survivability rate and and a lower reproduction rate than WTD. In ideal conditions a WTD doe will drop 2.5 fawns per year on average and a MD doe about 2.2 fawns per year. Also WTD female yearlings nearly all get reproduce while very few MD female yearlings reproduce. In both cases the mortality rate and predation losses of these newborns during their first couple of weeks of life is extremelly high.

This is a really good answer. It is amazing to me how many hunters think if there is 100 deer half will be bucks. Out of a hundred deer I would expect to find one or maybe two whitetails over 6 years of age and reaching 140, 150 etc. That is probably being too generous. At least where I live.

[Buckmeister]

What about diversity being the spice and necessity of life? I know as far as antler hunters go, you want to see heavy massed, tall and wide with some trash. But lets look at it from a different angle.

Hypothetically, if we successfully managed to cull all inferior genetics concerning antler size and even body mass, and focused on a certain genetic set, the gene pool would not be very diverse. This carries with it some problems. If the same genes are being throw around generation after generation, certain undesirable traits might tend to emerge.

Breeders of dogs and cats know all about the problems assoiciated with certain purebreds and a lack of fresh DNA. Hip problems, temperments, and a lack of resistence to certain diseases are common. I know of dairy farmers who breed their cows with the cows own ancestors generation after generation in order to isolate a desired trait, large milk producing udders. These animals certainly do not look normal and actually appear to be in great discomfort.

I'm no expert in this area, but sometimes, mankind should leave well enough alone and let nature take it's own course.

I for one love to go out into the wild outdoors and hunt for that truely awesome animal that has grown up to be what it is by natural means, not by human intervention.

[snareman1234]

Yea I agree Meister, Certainly love all the genetic diversity on BC, nice to see all those typical big framed muleys, but I wouldn't feel it was rugged BC if we selectively culled to produce a generic type trophy deer

[6616]

What about diversity being the spice and necessity of life? I know as far as antler hunters go, you want to see heavy massed, tall and wide with some trash. But lets look at it from a different angle.

Hypothetically, if we successfully managed to cull all inferior genetics concerning antler size and even body mass, and focused on a certain genetic set, the gene pool would not be very diverse. This carries with it some problems. If the same genes are being throw around generation after generation, certain undesirable traits might tend to emerge.

Breeders of dogs and cats know all about the problems assoiciated with certain purebreds and a lack of fresh DNA. Hip problems, temperments, and a lack of resistence to certain diseases are common. I know of dairy farmers who breed their cows with the cows own ancestors generation after generation in order to isolate a desired trait, large milk producing udders. These animals certainly do not look normal and actually appear to be in great discomfort.

I'm no expert in this area, but sometimes, mankind should leave well enough alone and let nature take it's own course.

I for one love to go out into the wild outdoors and hunt for that truely awesome animal that has grown up to be what it is by natural means, not by human intervention.

I don't think we have to worry about that considering all the natural mortality (that potentially exceeds hunting mortality) being mainly selecting out weaker and slower animals if it is selective at all and not just random.

I agree, controlled breeding of domestic animals has led to genetic problems, but this is a much different scenario, in the wild humans cannot control what bucks breed what does, etc. Moreover as was pointed out half the genetics a trophy buck has comes from the mother and humans have no way of selecting or not selecting the female genes that contribute to trophy antlers because does do not have antlers to judge their genetics by.

I think the experts would agree with me. Remember the discussion we had about a year ago when an article was released by Newsweek claiming selective harvest of trophy animals was weakening the gene pool of bighorn sheep in Alberta. Remember the experts (Dr. Val Geist) rebuttal of that paper claiming hunting cannot impact the genetic diversity enough to make a difference.

http://coloradohuntingtoday.com/blog/index.php/2009/01/14/does-trophy-hunting-spoil-the-gene-pool/

[Buckmeister]

I don't think we have to worry about that considering all the natural mortality (that potentially exceeds hunting mortality) being mainly selecting out weaker and slower animals if it is selective at all and not just random.

I agree, controlled breeding of domestic animals has led to genetic problems, but this is a much different scenario, in the wild humans cannot control what bucks breed what does, etc. Moreover as was pointed out half the genetics a trophy buck has comes from the mother and humans have no way of selecting or not selecting the female genes that contribute to trophy antlers because does do not have antlers to judge their genetics by.

I think the experts would agree with me. Remember the discussion we had about a year ago when an article was released by Newsweek claiming selective harvest of trophy animals was weakening the gene pool of bighorn sheep in Alberta. Remember the experts (Dr. Val Geist) rebuttal of that paper claiming hunting cannot impact the genetic diversity enough to make a difference.

http://coloradohuntingtoday.com/blog/index.php/2009/01/14/does-trophy-hunting-spoil-the-gene-pool/


I agree, we are a long ways from ever having a gene pool problem here in the wilds of BC. And hunter harvest numbers more than likely have little affect. That's why I said "hypothetically" in my last post. I think it's good to remind ourselves every once in awhile that whenever mankind tries to play god and messes with the natural order of things, we always end up screwing ourselves and nature over.

If an antler hunter wants a trophy rack, then that hunter needs to learn where those animals are, how they behave, put the time and effort in to educate themselves towards those animals, learn their patterns and behavior, say "no" to lesser animals, and then take the big boy on his home turf.

[6616]

I agree, we are a long ways from ever having a gene pool problem here in the wilds of BC. And hunter harvest numbers more than likely have little affect. That's why I said "hypothetically" in my last post. I think it's good to remind ourselves every once in awhile that whenever mankind tries to play god and messes with the natural order of things, we always end up screwing ourselves and nature over.

If an antler hunter wants a trophy rack, then that hunter needs to learn where those animals are, how they behave, put the time and effort in to educate themselves towards those animals, learn their patterns and behavior, say "no" to lesser animals, and then take the big boy on his home turf.

I agree with you Buckmeister, humans are capable of wrecking almost anything they play around with in nature..! The big boys are certainly out there if one wants one and is willing to put in the work and dedication. Very few guys I know are willing to pass up a 170 buck, that takes a whole pile of will power, but it's obviously one of the things one must be prepared to do if he wants a 190 buck bad enough.

People who go to Saskatchewan to hunt white tails often come back marveling at the mule deer they see out there and comment about the genetics. I don't know if it's really all genetics, or maybe food sources, lack of predators, a little bit of each of these, or just the fact that mule deer are all on LEH, or possibly the fact that with the tough winter conditions that prevail out there, a process of natural selection exists that continuously eliminates the weaker animals thus maintaining the strength of the gene pool. There's all kinds of possibilities and there's all kinds of factors that affect buck quality besides genetics. Great thread Buckmeister, thanks for initiating this very interesting conversation.

[oscar makonka]

People who go to Saskatchewan to hunt white tails often come back marveling at the mule deer they see out there and comment about the genetics. I don't know if it's really all genetics, or maybe food sources, lack of predators, a little bit of each of these, or just the fact that mule deer are all on LEH, or possibly the fact that with the tough winter conditions that prevail out there, a process of natural selection exists that continuously eliminates the weaker animals thus maintaining the strength of the gene pool. There's all kinds of possibilities and there's all kinds of factors that affect buck quality besides genetics. Great thread Buckmeister, thanks for initiating this very interesting conversation.

I don't think Saskatchewan has any better genetics than BC does. I think they are better protected simply because they are on a pretty restricted draw with a shorter season. More bucks living long enough to grow big antlers. Just across the border in Alberta the habitat and weather is pretty much identical along with the genetics, the trophy quality used to be pretty similar in the past but has gone on a downhill slide in less than 5 years time due to to the vast increase in the number of mule deer permits given out.

[dana]

The biggest difference between Sask/Alta mule deer and BC mule deer is that we have much much more escape habitat. There's these things that seem to grow in BC called TREES! We have the genetics, we have the feed, and we do have bucks that grow up. Just a very low percentage of hunters actually kill those bucks because it is soooo easy for them to hide.

[GoatGuy]

I don't think Saskatchewan has any better genetics than BC does. I think they are better protected simply because they are on a pretty restricted draw with a shorter season. More bucks living long enough to grow big antlers. Just across the border in Alberta the habitat and weather is pretty much identical along with the genetics, the trophy quality used to be pretty similar in the past but has gone on a downhill slide in less than 5 years time due to to the vast increase in the number of mule deer permits given out.



Thats correct and the reason they've been shooting deer in alb is the Cwd scare. Hunting for md in alb is easy and in sask it would be super super easy, if only they had a draw. :wink:

Personally rather hunt in Bc any day. Drew in alb this year and didn't go. With a 3 day a week rifle season it doesnt leave much time for hanging out with friends in alb and that's most of the reason I go. Rather hang out and hunt with my buddies in Bc for a week or two and shoot the same deer.

[oscar makonka]

Thats correct and the reason they've been shooting deer in alb is the Cwd scare. Hunting for md in alb is easy and in sask it would be super super easy, if only they had a draw. :wink:

.

They have CWD in Sask but they haven't bothered to try doing anything about it. I think Sask is doing the right thing, ignore the CWD thing. Alberta is decimating the border muleys and not achieving anything but ruining the hunting. My opinion is CWD has been around a long time, it's natural and if you checked enough deer anywhere you will find it. I may be wrong but I don't know of anywhere that the presence of CWD in a deer herd has resulted in any kind of massive die off or any noticable die off for that matter. Alberta has known about CWD in its deer and elk for many decades yet there has never been any effect on the overall herd health. The occasional animal turns up now and then. If it was going to spread and decimate the herd I think it would have already happened.

I agree with Dana, in BC big old muleys thrive because much of the herd is generally inaccessable or requires much more effort to access than most hunters are willing to give. Lots of bucks live and die and are never hunted. If you stretched BC out flat it would be larger than all the prairie provinces put together.

[dana]

Oscar,
I don't where you got your info regarding the CWD in Sask but they have been slaughtering deer for several years long before Alberta started their slaughter. There are some units Sask tried to eradicate the deer entirely.

[oscar makonka]

Oscar,
I don't where you got your info regarding the CWD in Sask but they have been slaughtering deer for several years long before Alberta started their slaughter. There are some units Sask tried to eradicate the deer entirely.

I stand corrected! Thanks Dana. Did some searching, near as I can tell there has been about 250 deer test positive out of 40,000 tested in the 10 years from 1997 up until 2008, latest figures I could find. Disease dosen't seem to go away, but dosen't seem to get worse either. Whenever they test a new area they seem to find a few cases, which makes me think CWD has been and always will be in the critters there.

Has BC ever been tested or has there been any cases found there?

[dana]

It is my understanding there has been some voluntary testing the last few years up in the Peace country. They figure if it makes it here from Alta that is the most logical entry point. Have not heard of any positive tests in BC as of yet.

[GoatGuy]

It is my understanding there has been some voluntary testing the last few years up in the Peace country. They figure if it makes it here from Alta that is the most logical entry point. Have not heard of any positive tests in BC as of yet.

Also been testing in other parts of BC - nothing confirmed to date.

Worried it might come over the mountains in the back of someone's truck.

[Elk-Aholic]

Personally rather hunt in Bc any day. Drew in alb this year and didn't go. With a 3 day a week rifle season it doesnt leave much time for hanging out with friends in alb and that's most of the reason I go. Rather hang out and hunt with my buddies in Bc for a week or two and shoot the same deer.

'Rather hang out with my buddies'......or translated in french means, I am getting married!

[dana]

Who's Your Daddy? Here's an example of a yearling buck with a ton of great genetics. This buck has the potential to be an absolute monster when he grows up.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Shed%20Pics/Apr17012b.jpg

[Orangethunder]

Too bad we aren't all so patient to let them grow up:

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff321/Orangethunder77/SD530850.jpg

[Orangethunder]

These two look pretty similar to me:
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff321/Orangethunder77/100_0828.jpg

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff321/Orangethunder77/SD530010.jpg

Notice the double brow tines and small fork starting on the main beam.

[Husky7mm]

Again, what's with the 'virtual elimination of a couple of age class each and every year' statements? You guys give hunters way way too much credit. Again, how many hunters do we have in this province? And how big is this province? TONS OF PLACES FOR EVEN YOUNG AND DUMB DEER TO HIDE!
I think this statement is hard for you to except because it isnt ocurring in your area. This does happen in many parts of the EK.
Out on the winter range after the hunting season is over there are very few 4 pointers left. A few lucky 120-150 class bucks sneak though. Also after alot of hiking around I find the odd shed off of bucks of this age but thats about it. In the summer in the high alpine I have scouted groups with as many as 15 2-4 yr old bucks in their Reds, I see very few that even brake 160 mark.
As the season rolled on and I hunted the area faithfully to the end this group was reduced to a small handful as they moved into area's where people were hunting elk. Most of these young bucks were taken by unsuccessful elk hunters who just wanted to take home some meat.
We have decent gene's here, I just believe that 90% of the legal bucks are harvest around here every yr, so we see very few big tophy bucks. I am all for harvesting bucks from all age classes if it improves the 4 point carry over in the next few yrs. It just may be that 80-90% of ALL bucks get harvested, I guess well see....

[dana]

I'm pretty sure I've been in areas with just as intense hunting pressure. The thing about mature bucks, they kinda know how to avoid those areas. It always amazes me to see hunters pile into one small area and pound the living daylights out of it, but ignore very close adjacent areas that might just be a little tougher to hunt. Normally thick and nasty $hit. Guess where the mature bucks are? You betcha, in the adjacent areas. Doesn't take much for a buck to breed a bunch of does under the cover of darkness and slip into the thicker adjacent areas long before the sun comes up. So while it might be easy to ASSUME there are no big bucks left, you know what they say about ASSUME.

[OutWest]

I'm pretty sure I've been in areas with just as intense hunting pressure. The thing about mature bucks, they kinda know how to avoid those areas. It always amazes me to see hunters pile into one small area and pound the living daylights out of it, but ignore very close adjacent areas that might just be a little tougher to hunt. Normally thick and nasty $hit. Guess where the mature bucks are? You betcha, in the adjacent areas. Doesn't take much for a buck to breed a bunch of does under the cover of darkness and slip into the thicker adjacent areas long before the sun comes up. So while it might be easy to ASSUME there are no big bucks left, you know what they say about ASSUME.

Hit the nail on the head here!

[Husky7mm]

Should they not leave there sheds then or atleast be seen out in the winter range? I scout year round and avoid the crowd during hunting season. Have you hunted in the EK recently?

[wjh131]

Genetics are the same whether the breeding buck is 1.5 years old or 5.5 years old. If his genetics are to be huge then thats the genes he passes on. However most people fail to remember that the does genetics make up half of the genes of the sired offspring. So if a genetically superior buck breeds a genetically inferior doe, you may not get a monster buck offspring. Or you may get a small bodied deer with a huge rack.. or vice versa... Its a crap shoot really...lol


You have to remember that a buck will service many does and be responsible for many fawns, the doe is only responsible for one fawn. As well, if you think about future generations, the f1 may not be a monster (or not) but if you think about the f2, f3, f4 and so on, you're gonna get that genetically superior buck in terms of rack or body. Plus as being genetically superior with in regards to rack size or even body size, those bucks are gonna be breed more because they have fought and won the right to. This then goes back to my beginning statement that superior bucks service more does. By keeping an eye on your buck population and culling poorer deer (rack and body size), you should see an increase in the quality of deer.
But on the down-side, not culling deer (does or bucks), your chance of inbreeding increases which brings disease, deformations and increase in natural selection (the good ones will live).
So it's important to take does along with bucks to build stronger deer populations.
Man does this ever take me back to my university days of studying genetics populations.

[Old Crow]

Before I get mobbed, let me say that this has probably already been discussed, but I'm too busy(and/or lazy) to wade thru 10,000 posts on the topic.
The unit I hunt most for Mulies is in southern region 8, and I've seen over the years lots of decent 120-140 four points, the odd 160+ occasionally on the horizon :D and sh1tloads of MASSIVE 2 and three points. This is an area with open buck, then 4 point only. How do we get these giant 3 points out of the gene pool? They seem to be in Cuba for most of the season, and only show up in 4 point season. So hard to pass up on an elk/mulie hybrid that's a perfect 3x3, and believe me, I've done it many times.

[wjh131]

This is pretty funny that the 3's show up during the 4 pt season! Those smart buggers!

I'd be hunting hard for those buggers during the open.

[dana]

Should they not leave there sheds then or atleast be seen out in the winter range? I scout year round and avoid the crowd during hunting season. Have you hunted in the EK recently?

My response to that is you are shed hunting the wrong area. Those thick and nasty adjacent areas I was talking about, the sheds are in there, not in the nice open country that is easy to shed hunt. It is very very common for big bucks to really pull well away from the bulk of the herd during the winter. Why? Where the bulk of the deer are, so are the predators. A lot of areas on the winter range are doe areas. Does, fawns and small yearling or 2 year old bucks hang out all together. You shed hunt these areas and you will find nothing but dink antlers. The key to picking up big sheds is to avoid hitting the easy ground where the does herd up.

[Old Crow]

This is pretty funny that the 3's show up during the 4 pt season! Those smart buggers!

I'd be hunting hard for those buggers during the open.


They ARE smart buggers. The dumb ones don't get big. We have a joke when we hear the THUMP THUMP THUMP of a stotting mule deer taking off on the frozen ground out of visual range. Sounds like a drum when the first few inches of ground are frozen. We say that's the trapdoors slamming shut as the big boys go underground like the Viet Cong. :D
Like Dana says, they're in the thick sh1t until they get horny, and non-existent til then. Try hunting them in blowdowns in cruchy snow or crunchy pinecones and twigs when it's dry. Good luck!
Would love to have a three point only season, and leave the little fours in the gene pool to become big fours, but whattyagonnado, huh?
It is what it is.

[Elk-Aholic]

My response to that is you are shed hunting the wrong area. Those thick and nasty adjacent areas I was talking about, the sheds are in there, not in the nice open country that is easy to shed hunt. It is very very common for big bucks to really pull well away from the bulk of the herd during the winter. Why? Where the bulk of the deer are, so are the predators. A lot of areas on the winter range are doe areas. Does, fawns and small yearling or 2 year old bucks hang out all together. You shed hunt these areas and you will find nothing but dink antlers. The key to picking up big sheds is to avoid hitting the easy ground where the does herd up.

Couldn't be more right! The big boys like their alone time and solitude after the 'love' season is over.

[Husky7mm]

I'm pretty sure I've been in areas with just as intense hunting pressure. The thing about mature bucks, they kinda know how to avoid those areas. It always amazes me to see hunters pile into one small area and pound the living daylights out of it, but ignore very close adjacent areas that might just be a little tougher to hunt. Normally thick and nasty $hit. Guess where the mature bucks are? You betcha, in the adjacent areas. Doesn't take much for a buck to breed a bunch of does under the cover of darkness and slip into the thicker adjacent areas long before the sun comes up. So while it might be easy to ASSUME there are no big bucks left, you know what they say about ASSUME.

Are you "ASSUMING" how thorough I have hunted and scouted. You know what they say about ASSUME :wink:
Hunters around here an'rnt lazy. Many of them hit the back country and road closures with headlamps on and coyote out for a week, then haul out a 140 class deer in a backpack cause It was the best they could turn up. This country is almost void of mulie bucks over 4.5 yrs old. You can disagree with me I dont care, but this is the observation of many more folks than just me. I am not disagreeing with you on the rest of the province, just around here, and dont get me wrong I really do appreciate all the knowledge you share with HBC. Cheers

[dana]

Well I do know that last year a beauty 230 inch nontypical came out of the EK. Was in the backcountry. The story and pics were in a Muley Crazy issue this spring. So there are a few guys that find bucks bigger than 140 class dinks. :)
Another thing about the shed hunting why you ain't finding anything of any size could be simply that someone is beating you to them. I know there are areas around here that my friends and I have totally cleaned out and if you were to hit them looking for sheds, you'd come to the conclusion that there are no big bucks here either. ;) When it comes to the EK all you have to do is check out some of the shed forums come Feb and March and you'll see that there are indeed some very respectable muleys living there. :)

[GoatGuy]

Are you "ASSUMING" how thorough I have hunted and scouted. You know what they say about ASSUME :wink:
Hunters around here an'rnt lazy. Many of them hit the back country and road closures with headlamps on and coyote out for a week, then haul out a 140 class deer in a backpack cause It was the best they could turn up. This country is almost void of mulie bucks over 4.5 yrs old. You can disagree with me I dont care, but this is the observation of many more folks than just me. I am not disagreeing with you on the rest of the province, just around here, and dont get me wrong I really do appreciate all the knowledge you share with HBC. Cheers


If you aren't finding the bucks you're looking for start checking some different country. There's lots of bucks way better than 140 in the EK, in the backcountry or on the roads. See them every trip and not on the coyote backpack program either.

[Fisher-Dude]

Are you "ASSUMING" how thorough I have hunted and scouted. You know what they say about ASSUME :wink:
Hunters around here an'rnt lazy. Many of them hit the back country and road closures with headlamps on and coyote out for a week, then haul out a 140 class deer in a backpack cause It was the best they could turn up. This country is almost void of mulie bucks over 4.5 yrs old. You can disagree with me I dont care, but this is the observation of many more folks than just me. I am not disagreeing with you on the rest of the province, just around here, and dont get me wrong I really do appreciate all the knowledge you share with HBC. Cheers

Just got emailed a pic of a 200+ muley buck right in your neck o' the woods.

They are there, for sure. :wink:

[leadpillproductions]

Just got emailed a pic of a 200+ muley buck right in your neck o' the woods.

They are there, for sure. :wink:
And you dont share the pic post it up

[MattB]

I bet a lot of big muleys come out of that country. A lot of guys just never say a thing or share pics of there success so you never hear about it.

[Husky7mm]

I bet a lot of big muleys come out of that country. A lot of guys just never say a thing or share pics of there success so you never hear about it.
Well I know a few tight lipped hunters that have never shared picture, never had a rack scored and arnt part of any hunting forums. I suppose that will keep people from chasing your truck, lol. I suppose some one could be beating me to the bigger sheds to but you might be giving hunters to much credit there. I have never seen a human track anywhere I have shed hunted, although I am sure I am not as dedicated as many of you. I am usually looking of the whole aniamal. But all very good points thanks.

[Husky7mm]

If you aren't finding the bucks you're looking for start checking some different country. There's lots of bucks way better than 140 in the EK, in the backcountry or on the roads. See them every trip and not on the coyote backpack program either.

Well I do try that but jumping around isnt allowing me to learn any areas like the back of my hand, sometime consistency can be a good thing:confused:

GG as a person who hunt the ek backcountry everyear have you not noticed a change in mulie hunting? Were you not mentioning even the outfitters taking just about any 4 point they came across?

[Husky7mm]

Just got emailed a pic of a 200+ muley buck right in your neck o' the woods.

They are there, for sure. :wink:
Dont be a hogg pass it on:-D we all like looking at big bucks.

[6616]

Well I do try that but jumping around isnt allowing me to learn any areas like the back of my hand, sometime consistency can be a good thing:confused:

GG as a person who hunt the ek backcountry everyear have you not noticed a change in mulie hunting? Were you not mentioning even the outfitters taking just about any 4 point they came across?

I have to agree that the buck quality is down in many of the easily accessed and heavily roaded areas of the EK. (Not saying there are no big bucks around, a 200 incher was shot less than a mile from my house last fall just off highway 95 (and spotted from the highway) and the most dedicated mulie hunters in town didn't even know he existed until a few days before he was shot) There also has to be big bucks still roaming the "hard to get at" areas. There are many higher elevation and remote rutting areas in the EK which I'm sure hold big bucks.

I'm guessing the big buck mentioned above (which might be the one FD has the picture of) and his doe herd are off their usual pattern due to the early and extra deep snow-pack we have this year, and that's why this buck suddenly showed up where he was shot.

I think when we harvest from the 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year age class heavily as we're forced to do with the 4pt regulation, it leaves fewer bucks to get older. Thats why I support the any buck season. I think it will spread the harvest over a wider range of age classes allowing more escapement on 4 pts that will be allowed to get bigger.

I also agree the any buck season will almost certainly result in an increase in the overall buck harvest, but buck harvest by itself does not impact overall population growth or decline when we're not harvesting any does, so this should not be cause for alarm. There also is a management objective to not allow the buck/doe ratio to get below 20 bucks per 100 does which gives us a lot of security against an over-harvest situation occurring.

I respect everyone's opinion on this, but from a scientific point of view, there is little to no indication that all this alarm over the new any buck season in the EK is justified.

[bayou]

I have to agree that the buck quality is down in many of the easily accessed and heavily roaded areas of the EK. (Not saying there are no big bucks around, a 200 incher was shot less than a mile from my house last fall just off highway 95 (and spotted from the highway) and the most dedicated mulie hunters in town didn't even know he existed until a few days before he was shot) There also has to be big bucks still roaming the "hard to get at" areas. There are many higher elevation and remote rutting areas in the EK which I'm sure hold big bucks.

I'm guessing the big buck mentioned above (which might be the one FD has the picture of) and his doe herd are off their usual pattern due to the early and extra deep snow-pack we have this year, and that's why this buck suddenly showed up where he was shot.

I think when we harvest from the 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year age class heavily as we're forced to do with the 4pt regulation, it leaves fewer bucks to get older. Thats why I support the any buck season. I think it will spread the harvest over a wider range of age classes allowing more escapement on 4 pts that will be allowed to get bigger.

I also agree the any buck season will almost certainly result in an increase in the overall buck harvest, but buck harvest by itself does not impact overall population growth or decline when we're not harvesting any does, so this should not be cause for alarm. There also is a management objective to not allow the buck/doe ratio to get below 20 bucks per 100 does which gives us a lot of security against an over-harvest situation occurring.

I respect everyone's opinion on this, but from a scientific point of view, there is little to no indication that all this alarm over the new any buck season in the EK is justified.
Did this buck happen to be shot with a crossbow or is this a different one.

[6616]

Did this buck happen to be shot with a crossbow or is this a different one.

PM sent..............

[Husky7mm]

I am going about this all wrong, screw hiking and avoiding the masses, all you need is to road hunt with someone looking for their first deer. lol Have you seen all the dandy buck shot in reg 3&8 this yr right from the road or on the road, pretty impressive. Many were shot before the snow to boot. Not a lot of effort here just some luck and the bucks were there. Im sure the odds of this increase in areas with more dirversity in the bucks ages.

[leadpillproductions]

I am going about this all wrong, screw hiking and avoiding the masses, all you need is to road hunt with someone looking for their first deer. lol Have you seen all the dandy buck shot in reg 3&8 this yr right from the road or on the road, pretty impressive. Many were shot before the snow to boot. Not a lot of effort here just some luck and the bucks were there. Im sure the odds of this increase in areas with more dirversity in the bucks ages.
Too true my wifes first buck shot while driving home from sitting in my stand scored 172 b&c

[GoatGuy]

Well I do try that but jumping around isnt allowing me to learn any areas like the back of my hand, sometime consistency can be a good thing:confused:

GG as a person who hunt the ek backcountry everyear have you not noticed a change in mulie hunting? Were you not mentioning even the outfitters taking just about any 4 point they came across?

Yeah, some of the outfitters shoot small bucks all the time, same with every legal ram. Guess the trick is to hunt the spots they don't. There's lots of spots with fir ridges that take a couple hours to hike into that can be phenomenal late, lots of little rock bluffs that always hold bucks.

Haven't really noticed much of a change in the mulie hunting. Does seem to be WAYYYYYYY more elk.

Earlier in the season mulie hunting is more by chance when sheep hunting and some spots have lots of mulies some spots have next to none - generally we don't really target them.

Know of quite a few bucks over 200 killed, my buddy killed one 4 years ago that went 212, lots passed up and shot that are smaller than that.

If you want more MD you need a fire, not a burn - you'll be overrun with md. If you look at the pics from the 'good old days' the landscape was totally different.

Most of the guys I know who shoot things don't post pictures and don't email them around.

[dana]

Are you "ASSUMING" how thorough I have hunted and scouted. You know what they say about ASSUME :wink:
Hunters around here an'rnt lazy. Many of them hit the back country and road closures with headlamps on and coyote out for a week, then haul out a 140 class deer in a backpack cause It was the best they could turn up. This country is almost void of mulie bucks over 4.5 yrs old. You can disagree with me I dont care, but this is the observation of many more folks than just me. I am not disagreeing with you on the rest of the province, just around here, and dont get me wrong I really do appreciate all the knowledge you share with HBC. Cheers

So reread what you just wrote and tell me why you and your friends can't find the older class bucks. The answer is right in front of you. The statement "then haul out a 140 class deer in a backpack cause that is the best they could turn up" is the reason you aren't seeing anything bigger. If you want to truly shoot big muleys, you have to pass on those 140 bucks and let them grow up. You find some bucks in the backcountry that are 140 class dinks, those same bucks will be back the next year and the next year and they will have grown into the mature deer you are looking for. If you want trophy deer, you've got to get past the idea that you need to cut your tag every year. Eating tag soup is the only way you will accomplish your goal of taking a larger buck in the years to come.

[dana]

I am going about this all wrong, screw hiking and avoiding the masses, all you need is to road hunt with someone looking for their first deer. lol Have you seen all the dandy buck shot in reg 3&8 this yr right from the road or on the road, pretty impressive. Many were shot before the snow to boot. Not a lot of effort here just some luck and the bucks were there. Im sure the odds of this increase in areas with more dirversity in the bucks ages.

The 230 buck taken last year was in the backcountry with horses. It actually netted 229 and change, just narrowly missing the all time B&C. Don't get side tracked by seeing some pics of a few road hunter's success'. Some people win the 6-49 but that doesn't mean you should count on that for your retirement fund. If you want to increase your odds at killing a monster muley, hunting away from the truck is a much better way to go about it. By far the backcountry produces more hawgs every year than those who get lucky roadhunting.

[Mark_S]

Some people win the 6-49 but that doesn't mean you should count on that for your retirement fund.-Dana

What!?! There goes that plan then!


I am new to the East Kootenays. I am originally from the West Kootenays and I have to say my first season in the East Koots has been very frustrating. I tired to hunt it like I would in the West Koots and had very little success. I hiked into some areas I thought would be great and only found Grizzlies and the odd Doe. Granted I am completely new to the country and learning it from scratch. It wasn't until a guy from work offered to take me out in early November that I saw any Mulie bucks and it was in an area I never would have gone into based on how I hunted the West Koots in the past.

I have no doubt the East Koots holds some very impressive bucks. The terrain here to me at least seems much more suitable for very long migration routes compared to what I was used to. This spring and summer I will scout the areas very hard. I work with a couple former guides that have given me some good ideas of where to look and I am learning to change up my habits and techniques.

They are out here. I have no doubt of that.

[GoatGuy]

The 230 buck taken last year was in the backcountry with horses. It actually netted 229 and change, just narrowly missing the all time B&C. Don't get side tracked by seeing some pics of a few road hunter's success'. Some people win the 6-49 but that doesn't mean you should count on that for your retirement fund. If you want to increase your odds at killing a monster muley, hunting away from the truck is a much better way to go about it. By far the backcountry produces more hawgs every year than those who get lucky roadhunting.


they killed two big bucks that day.

[Husky7mm]

So reread what you just wrote and tell me why you and your friends can't find the older class bucks. The answer is right in front of you. The statement "then haul out a 140 class deer in a backpack cause that is the best they could turn up" is the reason you aren't seeing anything bigger. If you want to truly shoot big muleys, you have to pass on those 140 bucks and let them grow up. You find some bucks in the backcountry that are 140 class dinks, those same bucks will be back the next year and the next year and they will have grown into the mature deer you are looking for. If you want trophy deer, you've got to get past the idea that you need to cut your tag every year. Eating tag soup is the only way you will accomplish your goal of taking a larger buck in the years to come.

I know that you can't kill a big one when your tagged out, I was just stating an observation about other folks. Alot of these back country bucks just arnt getting past up on to turn into a big mature buck. I ate alot of tage soup in the last 6-7 yrs, and past on over a 100 4 point plus deer, I just am not turning up anything worth getting excited about. This is almost always with a pack on and my own two legs, which one is starting to get longer than the other BTW. LOL

[Husky7mm]

they killed two big bucks that day.

Was this not in the WK up near darkwoods on the west side of the lake?
Any way to link up the story onto HBC I would love to see the pitures. I'm getting a horse. :)

[dana]

If you are putting in that much work with nothing of any size being seen then you probably do need to switch it up and look for a different area cause those big boys are definately in the EK, you just have to find the 'where'. Heavily hunted areas are not the best places to find big bucks. Earlier I used the example of the area right above my house mentioning it is indeed one of those areas that gets hit hard. I've easily picked up well over a 1000 sheds off that hill in the time that I've lived here. And out of all those sheds, only maybe 10 that were off of monsters that I'd think about killing if I had a chance. Every couple of years a 180+ buck gets killed but for the most part, 99.9% of the bucks killed are 1-3 year old rats. Great place to hunt if you want to kill a deer, poor place to hunt if you want to kill a monster. That being said, I can be hunting areas 30 mins away that I can see monsters pretty much every year. Why? Because the masses seem to like hunting together and avoid many of the areas that hold less visable deer, thus the deer in those other areas can get some good age on them.

[GoatGuy]

Was this not in the WK up near darkwoods on the west side of the lake?
Any way to link up the story onto HBC I would love to see the pitures. I'm getting a horse. :)

Never bothered to ask, but wouldn't be surprised.

Never seen the pics or story on the internet.

[GoatGuy]

If you are putting in that much work with nothing of any size being seen then you probably do need to switch it up and look for a different area cause those big boys are definately in the EK, you just have to find the 'where'. Heavily hunted areas are not the best places to find big bucks. Earlier I used the example of the area right above my house mentioning it is indeed one of those areas that gets hit hard. I've easily picked up well over a 1000 sheds off that hill in the time that I've lived here. And out of all those sheds, only maybe 10 that were off of monsters that I'd think about killing if I had a chance. Every couple of years a 180+ buck gets killed but for the most part, 99.9% of the bucks killed are 1-3 year old rats. Great place to hunt if you want to kill a deer, poor place to hunt if you want to kill a monster.

There's lots of spots like that in the EK as well. Can go out and see 100 deer/day but you won't see anything big.

[dana]

Never bothered to ask, but wouldn't be surprised.

Never seen the pics or story on the internet.

I seem to remember the email of those 2 bucks said EK but you can never trust locations in emails or the www. Could very be WK. Either way, still the Koots. :)

[GoatGuy]

I seem to remember the email of those 2 bucks said EK but you can never trust locations in emails or the www. Could very be WK. Either way, still the Koots. :)

Those boys are hard hunters, could be anywhere in 4.

Kootenay Lake would be a good start. :mrgreen:

[dana]

I'd theorize that the EK has better horse access than the WK, but what do I know. ;)

[Fisher-Dude]

I'm guessing the big buck mentioned above (which might be the one FD has the picture of) and his doe herd are off their usual pattern due to the early and extra deep snow-pack we have this year, and that's why this buck suddenly showed up where he was shot.


The one I have is still alive. :wink:

I'm not posting 'cause:

a.) I don't have the permission of the pic sender,
b.) too much scenery in the pics that could give away the location, and
c.) I'll be looking for him next year and I'm gonna hog that spot to myself. :mrgreen:

[Husky7mm]

Must be a town deer hahhaa:razz:

[Fisher-Dude]

Must be a town deer hahhaa:razz:

Nope. :wink:

[bayou]

PM sent..............
Ya same buck, this guy is gathering quit the collection of yard/town deer. If the EK towns decide to do something about there urban deer he should beable to put together a good resume.
There is a couple young guys that are trying to out do him though and have taking a few outa one town, they are starting to get sheep tags now as well and asking questions about certain spots. You should make sure you have good photos of them golden rams a few more may start disappering.

[6616]

Ya same buck, this guy is gathering quit the collection of yard/town deer. If the EK towns decide to do something about there urban deer he should beable to put together a good resume.
There is a couple young guys that are trying to out do him though and have taking a few outa one town, they are starting to get sheep tags now as well and asking questions about certain spots. You should make sure you have good photos of them golden rams a few more may start disappering.

Ive seen some of his bucks and he does have some real nice ones.

Lawrence called our club president the other day and asked him to make sure we took lots of photos of all the big rams.

[Husky7mm]

If the story of one of the big mulies was in muley crazy Im sure someone can post that pic. I would love to see it.