Shotguns for bear protection ?

[guntech]

I was visited today by a fellow from Northern Alberta who does a lot of guiding for bear. We were talking about various things when he asked me, "What do most people say, when asked what fireram a hiker/camper should carry for protection from a bear? What is usually recommended?"

I said what I hear most is a 12 gauge shotgun and slugs seem to be the most common reply.

He agreed that is what is generally recommended most often.

He then told me about last years hunting... He was sitting still and had a wolf cross in front of him about 12 yards away. He shot it broadside with a short shotgun and a 3 inch slug. The wolf died but he was really suprised the slug did not exit. It had expanded extensively and did not make it out of the chest cavity. That stayed in the back of his mind most of the season and later a client shot a nice size bear. As they were skinning it out, they could see two old wounds that had healed, one from an arrow and the other was a very expanded 12 gauge slug that had gone through the hide and stopped short of penetrating the cavity. They could see the slug when the skin was removed.

Interesting to hear that story. I guess if it is a big fat bear, you better be shooting into the neck/throat area, not close to a fat shoulder.....

Anyone else have any experiences with 12 gauge slug performance where the penetration and bullet recovery was done?

[islandhunter]

The only bear ive seen shot with a slug was a complete pass through at 30 yards, exploding the heart and a 2" hole on the exit.:confused: :confused:

[Gateholio]

I always reccomend Brenneke slugs, by Dynamit Nobel, as they penetrate better.

But I wou much rather have a good rife than any shotgun, the shotguns are often just more handy to pack.

[youngfellla]

I've heard tell of shotgun slugs not penetrating very well, but never actually witnessed it myself.

IF it was allowed, I would love to carry my 454 Casull when hiking or camping where bears might be a problem. Loaded with some 360 grain hard casts, them bears wouldn't be safe hiding behind five '55 Buicks:-D

[Fred]

Ex and I spoke to a gentleman last season up near Dawson Creek. This fellow is a taxidermist and said that he has seen bears with up to 7 old, healed bullet wounds in them. No doubt about it, bears can be tough customers. Fred

[Dayto]

I have seen a slug shatter a Black bears shoulders at 15 yrds , I took a black bear at 30 with a slug complete pass through ,

[elkster]

The slugs in a short barrelled shotgun are great for close in stuff, eg. in camp, or very dense bush, they are easy to point and shoot, But if you have the time I'd go for my 338 first. my 2c

[GoatGuy]

I've gone in after a couple bears with the defender and the slugs have worked amazingly well - clients don't like the holes they leave but guides do! ;) On the flip side buck shot doesn't work worth a damn IMHO - only used it once but wasn't impressed.

[willyqbc]

I pack a short little shotgun when bowhunting. Considering the range will be very close if I ever need to use it I am confident that the slugs will do their job.

Chris

[Ian F.]

You are missing part of the equation, what distance was the slug fired from when it hit the bear? If it was at distance much of the velocity may have been used up and hence pentration would be minimal.

Ian

[Brambles]

Do they make a shotgun round that shoots a jacketed sabot rather than a lead slug, depending on the alloy, lead itself is just too soft, something with a jacket would be much better???

[boxhitch]

Brambles - Yeah, they do, but most are made for rifled barrels. As said, Brenneke slugs are supposed to work good in smooth tubes, but good luck finding them.

[Elkhound]

You are missing part of the equation, what distance was the slug fired from when it hit the bear? If it was at distance much of the velocity may have been used up and hence pentration would be minimal.

Ian

This is what I was thinking when I read the first post

[troutseeker]

I have a pack of 10 Brenneke slugs in my pack:twisted: I've had them since the early 90'2, never shot one but they go in the 870 when I'm in bear country:-D

Troutseeker

[reach]

Brambles - Yeah, they do, but most are made for rifled barrels. As said, Brenneke slugs are supposed to work good in smooth tubes, but good luck finding them. On a related topic... where would you find them supposing you wanted to? I see them for sale online in the States, but that doesn't help us much up here. Does anybody stock them? Or can any gun store special order them? What brands are out there? I know there's the Dynamit Nobel Rottweil (http://www.dnrws.com/rottweil.html)... any others?

[Foxer]

f it was at distance much of the velocity may have been used up and hence pentration would be minimal.

Actually - it can go the other way just as easily. The faster the slug hits, the less it will tend to penetrate if it overexpands.

Seriously - take the same bullet and fire it out of a rifle at 2500 fps and 3000, and the 2500 will tend to out penetrate.

Some slugs are kind of soft, and at close ranges can do some funny things.
Brenneke's are pretty tough. I doubt you'd have a problem at any range where it still had some energy.

[Ian F.]

Couple more thoughts..

For PROTECTION I'd want odds in my favour, remember the goal is to get out alive and deter the bear, if you injury it and it leaves, who cares as long as you live! So with this in mind whatever is the biggest buck shot and a fairly open choke would seem to make the most sense. I mean just how steady is anyone in a potential bear attack situation? I'd rather have a dozen pieces of buckshot going towards old balooo, then just one slug! When I first starting shooting (ducks) my dad would say "You want as much lead as possible going as fast as possible (meaning more then 1 shot) in the general direction of the ducks or you wont hit a thing", an over stressed point about how a shotgun works, but I think it applies here.


thought #2.

10'ish years ago I bought an extended RIFLED choke tube for my 870 so that I could hunt in some shotgun only spots in southern Ontario. Went out to the range with several brands of sabot slugs as well as some regular slugs. With the RIFLED tube and in my case the Winchester sabots, I was able to get 6" to 8" groups at 100 yards just sigthing down the rib on a rest! I dug some of the slugs out of the bank and most went in 10" to a foot in clay sand, I'm no balistican, but I think they'd have no issue downing anything they hit in the right spot.

The original Sabots where designed by miliary/law enforcement to penetrate block walls and were made with very hard lead, the hunting ones are softer and designed to expand but I would say just as lethal. I did try the remington copper ones and found them the poorest preformance and the poorest penetrator as well.

Very best,

Ian

[GoatGuy]

I blasted a bear with Buckshot @ 20 yards penetration was the shits and didn't slow the bear down in the slightest - too much muscle to go through when they're charging you. Outiftter I worked for this spring said has had the exact same thing happen.

[Fred]

My old Model 12 is cyl. bore and holds 7 rounds. The round in the chamber is a light trap round for noise making. I then alternate slugs and 0 buck with a 72 cal round ball at the last. All of my rounds are homeloads and cranked up pretty quick. So far just making noise has worked for me. Fred

[Gateholio]

Brennekes used to be available at Italian Sporting Goods in Vancouver, I assume they still are.



On Buckshot- I did extensive testing with buck and slugs, and the bottom line is that buck has NO advantage over slugs.

#1 Buck doesn't penetrate very well at all, especially when encountering heavy bone and muscle

#2 At close range, buck doens't improve your hit percantage, which is why you use shot in the first place. In short, it doens' tspread out enough at close range, and at longer ranges it spreads too thin to make a difference.

[xcaribooer]

I have a remi 870 12 ga 28" barrel. I am wanting to get a 20" barrel for bear defense but not sure if I should go smooth bore or rifled barrel.They are both available. any advice? I plan on buying federal 1-1/4oz magnum slugs.

[Benthos]

ok, i'm still a rookie so if what i am saying is out to lunch, ignore.

for bear protection in the field, considering the costs of a brand new defender shotgun, compared to the costs of a new marlin guide gun 45/70, which i believe is in the $500+ range at wholesale, whouldn't one be better off with the 45/70 for protection in the field?

just curious, i've never used a 45/70.

[youngfellla]

for bear protection in the field, considering the costs of a brand new defender shotgun, compared to the costs of a new marlin guide gun 45/70, which i believe is in the $500+ range at wholesale, whouldn't one be better off with the 45/70 for protection in the field?


Agreed. I pack my Marlin 45/70 just about everywhere when scouting, hiking, or cutting trail, etc.:-D

Grizzly bears fear Marlin guide guns.;)

[rollingrock]

I heard someone hunted bear with 26" barrel shooting at 100 yards with slugs. Just wondering how bad the bear would get hit at this range?

[pupper]

Brambles - Yeah, they do, but most are made for rifled barrels. As said, Brenneke slugs are supposed to work good in smooth tubes, but good luck finding them.

I got some winchester supreme platinum tip sabot slugs that are 400gr. It says on the package that
"for optimum performance winchester recommends using product in a fully rifled slug barrel."

does this mean I should not use them in a smooth barreled shotgun? I was going to load them in a defender pistol grip and carry it with me when I bow hunt in grizz country.

wich reminds me that I am open to carrying/sling/holster ideas for the defender.

[dirtyharry]

I have guide gun and HP-9 14". I love the guide gun for hunting, but for bear defence when camping and fishing I find the shotgun more convenient. I load it with slugs for me, if the wife is using it she has 3" OOO buck. I figure even if they don't kill it, that many .33 cal bals should hopefully deter it. A weak hit is better than a powerfull miss.

Last summer there were a couple of bears shot on by RCMP in the news with shotguns. They were turned but didn't die, one ran into the water and drowned. It was at a music festival in the interior.

I just wonder if the different size of buck matters, I always buy OOO cause it is the biggest.

Rob

[Walksalot]

I prefer my hunting rifle when in the woods but this is coming from a guy who doesn't hunt bears and have never shot one, I simply have never had a reason.
I have shot deer at very close range and have never had a problem hitting the little buggers:-D but they were not coming at me with the intent of ripping my face off.:eek:

[GoatGuy]

I have guide gun and HP-9 14". I love the guide gun for hunting, but for bear defence when camping and fishing I find the shotgun more convenient. I load it with slugs for me, if the wife is using it she has 3" OOO buck. I figure even if they don't kill it, that many .33 cal bals should hopefully deter it. A weak hit is better than a powerfull miss.

Last summer there were a couple of bears shot on by RCMP in the news with shotguns. They were turned but didn't die, one ran into the water and drowned. It was at a music festival in the interior.

I just wonder if the different size of buck matters, I always buy OOO cause it is the biggest.

Rob

I think you'd be better off using 7 1/2s and trying to shoot the bear in the eyes with a high pellet count.

I picked buck shot out of a bear I shot coming at me. Pellets were only in a couple inches - didn't slow the bear down - don't use them.

[dirtyharry]

Quote "I picked buck shot out of a bear I shot coming at me. Pellets were only in a couple inches - didn't slow the bear down - don't use them."

What size buckshot were you using?

Rob

[GoatGuy]

Federal 000 Buck shot 12 gauge 3" mag. I also shot another bear in the ass with buck shot that I had to go in after - didn't work either. For a broadside shot I'm sure it'd be effective for taking out lungs but it doesn't go through the tough hide and meat well.

When you're going in after a wounded bear or being charged you shoot a whatever you can - this seldom includes a nice look at vitals.

I had this conversation with one of the predator control CO's in BC and he's had similar experiences and doesn't use it.

[boxhitch]

I had this conversation with one of the predator control CO's in BC and he's had similar experiences and doesn't use it.
So that leaves one less chance of messing up, when he is trying to load up quick, and can't decern between slugs, beanbags, or rubber bullets ? I understand they train with all these.???