Time it takes for death to occur

[Stéphane]

I find it fascinating that animal can still move after being mortally wounded. Read the post by Ddog http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=59310
and you'll see that a deer with a whole in his heart still made it for another 60 yards. So my brother-in-law and I had a discussion as if the animal was dead before it actually hit the ground. I say it was and here's my reasoning.

It goes back to my biology class at university more than 12 years ago. There were 2 major things that made me think I was right. The first one is the brain needs oxygen to live. A lack of will cause brain damage very rapidly. When an animal has a hole in its heart like the one showed in Ddog's post, it is fair to assume that the blood supply to the brain (therefore O2) will be dramatically reduced if not stopped altogether.

But why is the animal still moving? I believe it is an entirely different system altogether. It is called the "reflex Arc". In a human, if you put your hand on a hot stove, your hand will be pulled away without you ever thinking about it. It is because you have "interneurons" in your spine that upon receiving the signal of "hurt" bypass the brain and send to "pull" signal directly to the muscle.

I might be wrong, but I think a deer, for instance, has a similar kind of interneurons but they might be firing a series of signals to the muscles to get the animal "out of there". The reflex arc is involuntary and comes from a pain inside or outside the body. If the pre-set reflex is 100 firing of the leg muscles, then the animal could very much be dead before it hits the ground. By the way, you don't need blood to fire a muscle.

This is digging deep in my limited knowledge of biology, but I'd love to hear an expert on this.

Anyone care to add to this?

[Gun Dog]

Once blood flow stops it takes minutes for the brain to start to die. Plenty of time to run away. The cells are powered by glucose and each cell has a small reserve. The blood doesn't flow continuously in your veins either -- with each heart beat the blood flows and stops. Top atheletes (I don't know about deer) have a resting heart rate down to 30bpm. That's one beat every two seconds.

[ratherbefishin]

a friend of mine was a surgeon and said with a total failure of the bood supply a deer would be unconscious under a minute-but it could still go a long way in that minute.He was a great believer in not moving after you made the shot,chances are the deer would make an initial run ,but not knowing what happened would stop if it didn't hear or see anything

[AT&T]

Good articles. Well written. I have shot several deer that were pumped up and aware of me. They were skipping out. The one that amazed me the most went just over a hundred yards on a (dead) run. When I gutted him the heart was not to be found. The 265 grain 444 had totally blown up the heart. Totally amazing. Glad to they dont make moose like that. I think like you say it is an instinctful nerve process.

[Steeleco]

We tracked a big black bear spring 09 that was shot through the heart with a 7mag at under 75yds. Took forever to find him. Went near 300yds up hill through the thickest of woods. We felt dead when we did find him!!

[Rock Doctor]

People drown on a fairly regular basis, and some are revived up to several minutes later. Some of these people are lucky enough to suffer no brain damage at all, unfortunatly others do. It's said that the younger you are, the better your chances are of not having damages from such an accident.

[Bow Walker]

From my limited observation (and reasoning) I believe that the instinctive reaction or the fight-or-flight reaction of wild animals is strong that it can and does overcome any loss of blood/oxygen to the brain.

The animal reacts on such a deep instinctual level (inter-neurons) that it cannot help but jump, turn, run, or generally get the hell away from whatever just hurt it. The animal does this before (and without) any conscious thought whatever.

[M.Dean]

I heard a tale years back about some guys hunting Grizzly Bear, well they found one on a slide, the bear was facing them,the guy aimed and fired at the head, the bear was pissed and charged! The second shot was to the chest area and killed the bear not to far from there feet! They took the bear to a taxidermist, told there story and left. The Taxidermist phoned the guy a few hours later and asked him to come back and see something. The story go's he asked the guy again where his first shot was, and if he was positive where the second shot hit the bear, the guy confirmed the head first, chest second. The guy had the head caped out, and showed the hunters where the first shot went in, it was around the eye area some where and the exit wound left a tennis ball sized hole in the back of the skull! Story go's they guessed the bear ran about a hundred yards or so at them! That's the way I heard the story, I can't remember if the hunters were from around the Kamloops or where, but I think they were hunting in the Kootenay's Area. If it's true, that takes one hell of a animal to be able to do that!

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Adreniline is a wonderfull thing ... too bad it makes makes muscles taste like shit ....

the human brain can survive without damage up to 4 minutes without oxygen ... ... each mucle runs on Glucose as fuel .... as long as the brain is functioning and there is a supply of glucose to fuel the muscles ... any mamal (I dont know about about reptiles etc...) can function without bloodsupply for a limited time .....
Blood provides many functions ... It moves oxygen to the brain and other cells to keep them regenerating, it moves glucose for cell fuel, it washes away waste from cells (Lactic acid for example... A by-product of cell function .... when you are stiff and sore after some vigerous exercise ... that is the result of lactic acid build-up ... your blood couldnt carry away the amount you made)

Now that said ... as mentioned above many of the basic funtions arent even done in the brain ... they are done in the spinal column but the spinal column needs the rear lower portion of the brain to "power" it ... and its been said by research that (for lack of better term ) the brains "power supply" is in that region .....

so the most fatal shot would be at the base of the skull right in that region

[AT&T]

Again this is a very interesting article. From my work with wildlife biologists in the past this was explained to me. The whitetail deer has a very large adrenal gland compared to other wildlife species. The Grizzly bear has an adrenal gland 5 times the size of a whitetail even based on body weight.

[redneckdale]

I read one of the numerous grizz books and recall a biologist telling the author that a grizzlys adrenal gland releases more than a quart of adrenaline when pissed or injured epically when ou wound a bear from less than ideal shot placement

[Gateholio]

I've shot many animals squarely in the brain, most of them jump around for awhile, and the heart keeps beating for some time, despite scrambled brains. Pretty amazing, really.

[Jelvis]

I blew the heart to pieces in a antlerless muley with a 165 gr .30-06 noz up Tunkwa way a few years back. I let the trigger squeeze back slow, cross-hairs low behind the front shoulder , squeeeeeezed BAM!
The mature doe kicked it's hind legs up like a bucking bronco ( Heart shot ) the doe ran off in a hurry over the knobby hill. I went up there blood everywhere. I followed the crimson path for a long 40 yards and there she was piled up. Heart blown to a mushy pulp by my Husqvarna, but she went a long ways with no heart.
Jel ( Heart Stopper ) Kicks like a horse .. Ticker Blown Away .. WHOOMP that it iz

[peashooter]

Had animals go farther with heart shots than with lungs taken out. Head shots (2, both were instantaneous death).

[Pete]

The Fur Institute of Canada has done extensive testing on exactly this topic. This is to meet AIHTS (Agreement on International Humane Trap Standards) both here and in Europe. Data is available on their website.

[islandboy]

.... she went a long ways with no heart. ....

More than one has done this. :mrgreen:

[TyTy]

My deer last year ran 80m in a straight line, hit him alittle high, behind one shoulder, smashing the other with the exit. probably killed from hydrostatic shock (i think its called).

This years whitetail, perfect hit, in behind one shoulder, through one lung and heart, exit @ brisket. he jumped straight up 8' or so and over a windfall. I figure he was dead when he landed. He was in a bush right on the otherside of the windfall, he must have been dead in mid air and not moved after he hit the ground. took 1 1/2 to find him even though he was still 6' from where he was hit. i had walked 6' right passed him :S

[MichaelB]

so the most fatal shot would be at the base of the skull right in that region[/quote]


Yep, true. The control centre for functions such as breathing, and heart rate, are controlled through the brainstem which is in the back of the base of the skull and into the 1st vertebrae. The part of the brain that we recognize as the brain is just the cerebrum which functions for voluntary movement, sensory perception, memories, learning, etc... You can get shot there and still survive. As for getting shot in the heart, it is your nervous system (brain stem) that controls that. The heart only moves blood to the rest of the body. When an animal drops it is usually first from syncope or fainting from the decrease in blood pressure.....the purpose of fainting is to lay you down and allow an increase of oxygenation to the brain through increased blood flow (This is different from fainting cause you just heard Elvis died but both purposes are to increase blood flow to the brain). And since the brain is no longer getting the blood flow thanks to a bullet of ____grain and ____velocity, this does not happen.

Animals suffer more than you know! There are very few quick kills. Death is a terrible thing.....that is why hunting needs to be respected and an animal giving it's life for us to sustain ours is a beautiful thing. You don't need to be religious to give thanks for a process this special.

[Jelvis]

My brother gut shot a nice buck up on a mountain by a pond, his first buck. The buck showed and my brother got jittery but shot and nailed the buck, blood everywhere and pieces of gut, green colored awful spread out in the snow.
That buck went for miles because, my bro and friend dint know to let it lay down, they chased it for hours, guts hanging out.
They had to come back to the truck and drive way down the valley to get the buck.
Jel .. Gut shots are real lousy, can take days to die.

[Vossie]

Thanks Bowzone, this answers a question I had for a long time: I alwasy wondered if those poor buggers that got their heads chopped off by the guillotine could actually register what is happening when the head rolls downs or drop in the bucket. As long as the chopper miss the stem I guess you are guaranteed to see the bucket or the cobble stones.

Good thread.


Adreniline is a wonderfull thing ... too bad it makes makes muscles taste like shit ....

the human brain can survive without damage up to 4 minutes without oxygen ... ... each mucle runs on Glucose as fuel .... as long as the brain is functioning and there is a supply of glucose to fuel the muscles ... any mamal (I dont know about about reptiles etc...) can function without bloodsupply for a limited time .....
Blood provides many functions ... It moves oxygen to the brain and other cells to keep them regenerating, it moves glucose for cell fuel, it washes away waste from cells (Lactic acid for example... A by-product of cell function .... when you are stiff and sore after some vigerous exercise ... that is the result of lactic acid build-up ... your blood couldnt carry away the amount you made)

Now that said ... as mentioned above many of the basic funtions arent even done in the brain ... they are done in the spinal column but the spinal column needs the rear lower portion of the brain to "power" it ... and its been said by research that (for lack of better term ) the brains "power supply" is in that region .....

so the most fatal shot would be at the base of the skull right in that region