89% Nanny harvest?!

[dutchie]

THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO SLAG PEOPLE... You want to do that go start your own thread.

I was talking to a few hunters that are higher up in BCWF and GOABC and both numbers corresponded with each other.

Apparently there was a 89% Nanny harvest in the GOS this year. They are planning on shutting it down next year altogether due to sustainability of the Goats.

I think that the goats should not have be on GOS, rather on a more liberal LEH system. I think that there is more of a "trophy hunter" mindset to someone that gets an LEH becasue each person that I know that had an LEH harvested a Billy... the 3 that did not have an LEH and went on GOS harvested Nannies.

On the positive front, From what I hear, the Sheep Special Area Permit will be back but the Rosie will not. It really is to bad that the Rosie is not back but one is better then none.

Can anyone confirm any of this? If the Goat numbers are accurate and if the sheep permit will be back for the 2012-2013 season?

Dutchie

[Mr. Dean]

***IF*** what you say is 'so',,,, I have a hard time swallowing ANY leh drive down our throats. There's other measures that could be taken instead.

It's hard to comment on your stats without knowing the actual harvest data. While 89% sounds like a lot, it could very well be little if we're talking a total harvest of 5 goats.....

[talver]

Only know of one goat being harvested this year and it was from a area that is GOS and it was a a big billy. Not trying to stirr the pot But of the two goats that I know of taken last year both on LEH were both were nannies, just what I have observed wasnt on either of the hunts seen video from all three hunts. Not too sure about more LEH

[6616]

Apparently there was a 89% Nanny harvest in the GOS this year. They are planning on shutting it down next year altogether due to sustainability of the Goats.

What region and MUs are you talking about? Curious that harvest data would be available since the MG season isn't even over yet in most of the province...????

[boxhitch]

I concur, A
Sounds like someone if being outfitted with bad information
Heard a similar tale about underage sheep a couple of years ago.

[yukon john]

Is your info for a MU or a region, or the province? I was in on 3 goats this year and all where mature billys in GOS

[J_T]

Haven't we been way under utilizing our harvest allocation over the past few years?

We need more goat hunts on GOS.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Something smells like the mouth of the Adams River right about now:?.

Firstly.....MOE is notoriously slow with info like this.

Secondly....the GOS's are still open and compulsary inspection requirements run another 30 days post harvest(or something close to that).

Seems to go against the normal mindset of LEH....."I don't know if I'll get drawn again so I'd better come home with something".

The word "agenda" comes to mind:wink:

SSS.

[Deaddog]

I would find it surprising if the stats were out already on goat harvests, usually this is something for late spring... so at this point I don't believe it.....special sheep is under discussion..

[.330 Dakota]

My son harvested a goat this year LEH , 9.25" Billy, they are easy to distinguish if you have a decent pair of bino's

[silvicon]

the high nanny harvest is a province wide problem.
It will lead to a moratorium in the end.
A province-wide LEH system for goats would be a good idea!

[Jagermeister]

the high nanny harvest is a province wide problem.
It will lead to a moratorium in the end.
A province-wide LEH system for goats would be a good idea!While the nanny harvest would appear to be high, I think the emphasis should be placed on more hunter awareness and education.
I think that a video visual test on goat gender identification should be used to screen applicants before purchasing a tag. The test result would have to have a score of 100% to quslify for the tag. If you fail the test, you cannot try the test again until the following year. Might be a good idea for sheep too.
Tags would be for billies only. Zero nanny harvest.
If the population is in crisis, then a moratorium would be in order. Remember, moratorium is to suspend all activity, that means the guides would have to be included, which we know that they will not support.
The guides would support a LEH because it allows them to do business as usual at the expense of the resident hunter who will be shackled by the LEH process.

[pearljam]

Sounds like more GOABC propaganda...........................

[ryanb]

I'm not slagging people here, but you have to remember that a large percentage of hunters are not necessarily fit, and certainly also lazy. When they decide to go after a goat, these will usually harvest the easiest animal they can manage, which is almost certainly a nanny in most cases. The mindset, ethics, and fitness levels of this segment hunters are not about to change anytime soon, so I am all for changes that will help to nip this problem in the bud...and let's not kid ourselves, whether these stats are accurate or not, IT IS A PROBLEM.

I'd love to hear any suggestions on fixing this problem, because the only 2 things I can think of is restricting oppotunity or penalties for shooting a nanny which will only lead to animals beings left of the side of a mountain.

[6616]

I "agree" with Silvicon (wow) that nanny harvest is something that needs monitored closely in all regions.

However like J_T says we are also under-utilizing the AAH in most regions. In the EK residents use about half their allocation and outfitters use about 60 to 70% of theirs, so it's really not as big of an issue in cases like that. If only half the AAH is used and half that harvest is females then nanny harvest only represents about 25% of the AAH which is within sustainable limits (33%) set by MOE.

In BC the established harvest rate for MGs is 3.5 to 4.5% of the population estimates, and in many, many areas the actual harvest rate is below 2.5%.

Also, the nanny harvest percentage does not vary between LEH areas and GOS areas, LEH would not change anything, in R4 all goats were traditionally on LEH up until this year and the nanny harvest was still a significant percentage of the overall harvest.

GOS vrs LEH would not even change the number of goats shot or the number of goat hunters in the field in most MUs. In Region 4 LEH authorizations were increased from 1100 in 2002, to 1600, then to 2200, and then again to 2600 in 2009, non-resident quotas went up by the same percentages, and the average annual harvest by residents and even non-residents did not change.

The nanny harvest percentage varies from year to year, some years it's high, some years it's low, a higher than usual nanny harvest in a single year is not an issue unless it continues for several years in a row.

So I respectfully "disagree" with Silvicon on his point that LEH in the current GOS areas would solve any problems.

[6616]

I'm not slagging people here, but you have to remember that a large percentage of hunters are not necessarily fit, and certainly also lazy. When they decide to go after a goat, these will usually harvest the easiest animal they can manage, which is almost certainly a nanny in most cases. The mindset, ethics, and fitness levels of this segment hunters are not about to change anytime soon, so I am all for changes that will help to nip this problem in the bud...and let's not kid ourselves, whether these stats are accurate or not, IT IS A PROBLEM.

I'd love to hear any suggestions on fixing this problem, because the only 2 things I can think of is restricting oppotunity or penalties for shooting a nanny which will only lead to animals beings left of the side of a mountain.

What's wrong with Jagermiester's idea, I think like him that education is the key, and also is applicable to sheep horn judging, female vrs male grizzly identification, etc. There are on-line aids to lots of good stuff for those wishing to educate themselves.
http://www.bcwf.bc.ca/committees/wildlife/documents/ADFG_Mtn_Goat_ID_Quiz_v2009.pdf
http://wildsheepsociety.net/node/55
http://bearinfo.org/cougars/cougar-identification/

[BiG Boar]

I thought about this one this year and why the nannies get taken each year.

Most hunters dont understand how slow goats are to reproduce and the life success rate of goats, and so they dont see the need to harvest a billy.

I say most hunters are not lazy, but when they get up the mountain, it is tiring and they see a legal goat their ideas get the better of them to GET THE TAG FILLED.

[c.r.hunter]

For anyone who's spent any time hunting and glassing goats, It's really not difficult to sex these animals. Why is a "billy only" regulation not an option? It's way more difficult (IMO anyways) to judge sheep on horn restrictions in the field, but we don't have a "full curl or close enough" rule. Am I off base to think that the "either sex but we request hunters select a male goat" rule is being abused? FWIW, I'm no goat expert but have been on a few hunts(2 succesfull with billies harvested) and spent a fair amount of time glassing them. I didn't find sexing difficult and don't see passing on an animal one's unsure about as being a big deal.

[c.r.hunter]

Further, before squeezing off on a nanny, does the thought "the goat population may be reduced for myself and OTHERS for years to come if I kill this animal" ever cross the mind?

[steel_ram]

Unless it's actually against the law, many guys will deliberately shoot a nanny rather than go home with nothing. A "request" to select males clearly means squat.

[Amphibious]

Unless it's actually against the law, many guys will deliberately shoot a nanny rather than go home with nothing. A "request" to select males clearly means squat.


Bingo. maybe the best option is to take nanny's out of the GOS and make them only LEH. maybe a perfect addition to the youth hunter LEH system?

[ryanb]

What's wrong with Jagermiester's idea, I think like him that education is the key, and also is applicable to sheep horn judging, female vrs male grizzly identification, etc. There are on-line aids to lots of good stuff for those wishing to educate themselves.
http://www.bcwf.bc.ca/committees/wildlife/documents/ADFG_Mtn_Goat_ID_Quiz_v2009.pdf
http://wildsheepsociety.net/node/55
http://bearinfo.org/cougars/cougar-identification/

It is my belief that the majority of nannies shot by hunters are shot with the knowledge that they are in fact nannies.

As long as it is legal to shoot a nanny, and nannies are the easiest goats to kill, there will be a large segment of hunters (previously described) that will continue to shoot them. These hunters are the ones that are half dead of a coronary by the time they make it half way up a mountain, and blast away at the first goat they see, knowing full well that they will probably not hunt goat again and don't care about the biological or hunting oportunity reprocussions of shooting a nanny.

We all know these people, let's not kid ourselves.

[pearljam]

All of Region 3,4,5 Goat LEH state either sex any age........ So nothing wrong with shooting a nanny!!!! If the goat population was hurting in these areas it should be male goat only..... I would not shoot a nanny myself, but any one with one of these tags has the right to.


I agree with the staements that it is easy to field judge a goat on sex. more guys need to spend some time on the internet looking at goat pictures before they head out into the field. All GOS areas should be on a male goat only restriction.

[ve7iuq]

***IF*** what you say is 'so',,,, I have a hard time swallowing ANY leh drive down our throats. There's other measures that could be taken instead.

It's hard to comment on your stats without knowing the actual harvest data. While 89% sounds like a lot, it could very well be little if we're talking a total harvest of 5 goats.....

I have a hard time trying to figure that out. If nly 5 goats were harvested, how could you get 89%?
It would appear to me that the minimum harvested to arrive at 89% nannies, must be 100 goats.
And that is far too many nannies.

[pearljam]

I have a hard time trying to figure that out. If nly 5 goats were harvested, how could you get 89%?
It would appear to me that the minimum harvested to arrive at 89% nannies, must be 100 goats.
And that is far too many nannies.

I hope your still in school.........

If 5 goats were shot and 4 of them are female that is 80% female harvest.......

[ve7iuq]

[quote=6616;785103]What's wrong with Jagermiester's idea, I think like him that education is the key,
----------

Well, it's not exactly a new idea. 45 or so years ago, it was a major item in the management of goats. Educate the hunters, so they can distinguish a nanny goat from a billy!

[steel_ram]

All of Region 3,4,5 Goat LEH state either sex any age........ So nothing wrong with shooting a nanny!!!! If the goat population was hurting in these areas it should be male goat only..... I would not shoot a nanny myself, but any one with one of these tags has the right to.

Legal? Yes. Nothing wrong? I'd disagree going by suggestions and strong words from biologists. I'm sure the law makers are fully resigned to the fact that if they made it Billy only by law, there would be a lot of dead nannies left on the hill.

[pearljam]

Legal? Yes. Nothing wrong? I'd disagree going by suggestions and strong words from biologists. I'm sure the law makers are fully resigned to the fact that if they made it Billy only by law, there would be a lot of dead nannies left on the hill.


Why do they specifically say either sex, any age???? While all other region LEH state Adults only???? Right there it says the LEH tag holder can take either sex!!!!!! I would never shoot a nanny myself, but when it says right on the tag either sex then thats what you'll get.

I know were talking GOS here though.......

And how many guys are going to climb the mountains multiple times shooting random goats until they get a male????

Thats like saying guys are going to shoot sheep until they get a legal one??? Does this happen?? Are there dead sheep every where?? Doesn't make sence to me. The guys that dont care aren't going to put the effort into climb mountains over and over again till they get a billy.

There the ones that shoot the first one because of how physicaly tough it is. A male only season is the same thing as saying full curl or 8 years old...... Maybe this would weed out some of the guys that dont care...

[Slinky Pickle]

I have a hard time trying to figure that out. If nly 5 goats were harvested, how could you get 89%?
It would appear to me that the minimum harvested to arrive at 89% nannies, must be 100 goats.
And that is far too many nannies.



I hope your still in school.........

If 5 goats were shot and 4 of them are female that is 80% female harvest.......


Actually ve7iuq, from a number rounding point of view, the following ratios probably satisfy the 89% comment too. Sadly, some of us are twisted enough to get your point :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

8 of 9
16 of 18
24 of 27
31 of 35
32 of 36
39 of 44
40 of 45
48 of 54

There are plenty more but I'll stop now before my inner geek takes over completely.

[squirrelmonkey]

My view is that your tags are way to inexpensive !!
I paid 350.00 as a nonresident to hunt goats. I had no problem to pay that amount because to me It's a privelage to hunt goats. especially without an outfitter.
Animals that are prone to over harvest should cost a shit pile more then they currently do.
That in itself will limit the hunters pursuing that species. I dont believe creating more LEH will mitigate the problem of over harvesting etc. that just reduces hunter oppertunities which is what you all want more of correct ??
I think my solution of jacking up the tag fee's for these "sensitive" species like goats and Sheep etc. for both residents and non alike is the way the MOE will go in the future.
T

[Slinky Pickle]

My view is that your tags are way to inexpensive !!
I paid 350.00 as a nonresident to hunt goats. I had no problem to pay that amount because to me It's a privelage to hunt goats. especially without an outfitter.
Animals that are prone to over harvest should cost a shit pile more then they currently do.
That in itself will limit the hunters pursuing that species. I dont believe creating more LEH will mitigate the problem of over harvesting etc. that just reduces hunter oppertunities which is what you all want ??
I think my solution of jacking up the tag fee's for these "sensitive" species like goats and Sheep etc. for both residents and non alike is the way the MOE will go in the future.
T

How about charging the hunter twice as much for a tag and then providing a 50% tag rebate/credit when they produce a billy at inspection?

[Tenacious Billy]

Most hunters, I'd like to think, wouldn't intentionally shoot a nanny.....that being said, it does happen. A large percentage of the nannies that do get shot are probably killed mistakenly - a hunter that didn't take the time to properly ID the sex of the animal or doesn't have the knowledge to know the difference. Making it illegal to harvest nannies won't stop the harvest of females - people will still make mistakes. What you might get is people unknowingly pulling the trigger on a nanny and then deciding to leave it on the mountain to rot and continue their pursuit for a "legal" goat. There must be a reason the MOE hasn't already made it illegal to harvest nannies and me thinks it might be because someone there had the foresight to see what might happen if they did. Hunter education is the best tool...........

[squirrelmonkey]

How about charging the hunter twice as much for a tag and then providing a 50% tag rebate/credit when they produce a billy at inspection?

Hey, That's a damn creative Idea !!!
As corney as that may sound to many, that could very well provide some incentive for hunters to make sure they do thier part in Identifying a legal animal or in this case a Billy over a Nanny.
This concept would work for all those species where males are difficult to differentiate from females. and where the harvesting of females is Illegal.

T

[llloyd]

squirrelmonkey hit the nail on the head. if it's expensive enough and billy only most will do their homework rather than forfeit their trophy.

"any sex any age" invites lazyness. its probably not hard to use that to rationalize pulling the trigger if you are cold wet and tired.

[Gateholio]

Before I go off in a panic, I'd like to see the actual harvest numbers and percentages in context with population numbers.

[GoatGuy]

THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO SLAG PEOPLE... You want to do that go start your own thread.

I was talking to a few hunters that are higher up in BCWF and GOABC and both numbers corresponded with each other.

Apparently there was a 89% Nanny harvest in the GOS this year. They are planning on shutting it down next year altogether due to sustainability of the Goats.

I think that the goats should not have be on GOS, rather on a more liberal LEH system. I think that there is more of a "trophy hunter" mindset to someone that gets an LEH becasue each person that I know that had an LEH harvested a Billy... the 3 that did not have an LEH and went on GOS harvested Nannies.

On the positive front, From what I hear, the Sheep Special Area Permit will be back but the Rosie will not. It really is to bad that the Rosie is not back but one is better then none.

Can anyone confirm any of this? If the Goat numbers are accurate and if the sheep permit will be back for the 2012-2013 season?

Dutchie

89% of what?

Sorry, doesn't make much of a thread without some context ie., est pop, mu, harvest and split.

Most of the CI data won't be in and analyzed until the New Year.

Who are the sources?

[Jagermeister]

Further, before squeezing off on a nanny, does the thought "the goat population may be reduced for myself and OTHERS for years to come if I kill this animal" ever cross the mind?
That is the crux of the matter.

There is little forward thinking these days about how one's actions will impact themselves and others down the road in time.

For quite a few years now, the hunting synopsis has been warning hunters about the nanny harvest impact.

The individual mindset is that it's only me, so if I knock off a nanny, what impact will that have? Afterall, it's only one. If 25% of those that target goats have that mindset, goat populations will be in trouble.

Too much emphasis has been placed on hunter success rather than hunter ethics.

[shawnwells]

i took my billy 12 years ago...and do not hunt goats anymore...just be content with my billy as my personal contribution to the most amazing animal in Canada..

[6616]

Keep this in mind guys, this is not a nandemic, goats are not being overharvested, goats are not in trouble, and where goat numbers are low or vulnerable there already is no goat hunting allowed. Up to 33% of the AAH is a sustainable goat harvest. 90% of the goat hunts in BC are already on LEH, only remote roadless areas where few hunters tread are on GOS. The GOS harvest is insignficant. Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Let's give the new "family unit" goat regulation a chance and see how it works before we take radical action.

[6616]

Let's give the new "family unit" goat regulation a chance and see how it works before we take radical action.

See #11 under "It Is Unlawful" section, page 14 with full explanation on page 26 of your synopsis.

[wos]

How about charging the hunter twice as much for a tag and then providing a 50% tag rebate/credit when they produce a billy at inspection?



can I have a full refund if I get skunked?:mrgreen:

[shawnwells]

I heard theyre gonna say 5 billys a year...and theres gonna be UFC kinfe fighting to see who gets the 5 draws...and then the ministry is gonna shoot those 5 guys and go hunt those billy themselves... but they gotta go in pink tutus...but first theyre gonna run in those tutus and kill every man thats ever killed a nanny...just what i heard....

[shawnwells]

My point is...dont shoot nanny...everytime you shoot a nanny...you kill a part of an amazing species...and say what you will...the ministry is saying dont shoot nannys for a reason...but the pink tutus are for letting us down in the past...

[6616]

Just e-mailed MOE. In Region 4 only one (1) nanny has been shot so far in the new GOS areas, so much for that...!

[boxhitch]

Thats not much for success there A.
;)

[ve7iuq]

I hope your still in school.........

If 5 goats were shot and 4 of them are female that is 80% female harvest.......

Why don't you read the posts?
80% is not mentioned. The figure was 89%.
I hope you got to school!

[6616]

Thats not much for success there A.
;)

That's not the total number of goats harvested BP, I just asked for the female numbers. I thought it would be premature to ask for more detailed numbers with two weeks left in the season, nice weather, hardly any snow up high, good goat hunting still, so there will be more goats shot.

Number of females shot to date in the GOS MUs: One female shot in 4-29, zero females shot in the other GOS MUs.

GOS areas in Region 4: 4-27 to 4-30, 4-34, 4-36, 4-37, 4-39 and 4-40.

[Mr. Dean]

That's not the total number of goats harvested BP, I just asked for the female numbers. I thought it would be premature to ask for more detailed numbers with two weeks left in the season, nice weather, hardly any snow up high, good goat hunting still, so there will be more goats shot.

Number of females shot to date in the GOS MUs: One female shot in 4-29, zero females shot in the other GOS MUs.

GOS areas in Region 4: 4-27 to 4-30, 4-34, 4-36, 4-37, 4-39 and 4-40.


Thanks........ :mrgreen:

I'll let the "Math Guy's" figure out what the ratio/percentage is.

[boxhitch]

That's not the total number of goats harvested
I figured so A

The same type of 'sky is falling, time for leh' yarn has been around for awhile. It always seems to perpetuate, spreads faster than tequila soaked date.

[Mr. Dean]

Actually,,,,,,,,,, it seems to me that we're doing an OUTSTANDING job at limiting nanny harvests, asuming that 6616's #'s hold water (in which I don't doubt).

TBS though, there's still outstanding data and I guess that there *could* be a plathora of nanny's out there that are waiting for an inspection.

[GoatGuy]

Until we get a better sample or the results in the new year it's not worth discussing.

The question is where did Dutchie get his info from?

[Mr. Dean]

From here.



I was talking to a few hunters that are higher up in BCWF and GOABC and both numbers corresponded with each other.

Dutchie

And I agree; It's premature to figure out the whats what. BUT, I'd think that these players would have access to the current stats that MOE has, that's been posted..... So I ponder the true rational behind it.

FWIW, I don't think dutch is saying the sky is falling - Just passing on info that's been relayed to him. Either event is moot at this stage; Facts will tell the story.

[bearslayer01]

ok here is a Great idea i dont think u will ever see a billy only season so here i go y not make it legal to harvest a billy but... this is the key if u do shoot a nanny and u thaught it was a billy u should not be able to hunt goats for 1 extra year like a penalty u still get to keep your goat but it could save 1 nanny the next year if your goin gto be and idiot. Also u could impliment this on all bears too if u shoot a soe in the spring u shouldnt be able to kill another one in the fall. I Think its the the only option where people dont get in trouble they get to keep their goats and if anythign it might make them more aware next time... and it should save a few nannys

[pearljam]

ok here is a Great idea i dont think u will ever see a billy only season so here i go y not make it legal to harvest a billy but... this is the key if u do shoot a nanny and u thaught it was a billy u should not be able to hunt goats for 1 extra year like a penalty u still get to keep your goat but it could save 1 nanny the next year if your goin gto be and idiot. Also u could impliment this on all bears too if u shoot a soe in the spring u shouldnt be able to kill another one in the fall. I Think its the the only option where people dont get in trouble they get to keep their goats and if anythign it might make them more aware next time... and it should save a few nannys

Good idea for goats but wouldn't work for black bears unless they started a CI requirment for them, And I cant see that happening. Too many bears out there. They would be swamped with bear inspections.

But for goats it could be like the old sheep days where a ram under 7 years old had you waiting 3 years for another.

[GoatGuy]

From here.



And I agree; It's premature to figure out the whats what. BUT, I'd think that these players would have access to the current stats that MOE has, that's been posted..... So I ponder the true rational behind it.

FWIW, I don't think dutch is saying the sky is falling - Just passing on info that's been relayed to him. Either event is moot at this stage; Facts will tell the story.

guess I'm calling bs on the sources.

[bearslayer01]

i was thinking grizzleys more than blacks

[bearslayer01]

i think my idea would really make people think about harvesting a nanny and if they did realy want to or it was book material they would be able to people who goat hunt dont generally go out and kill nannies every year so this could be a good option

[Mr. Dean]

Bearslayer;
If the wheel ain't broke, why even try fixing it?


As it stands right now, there is 1 nanny that's a confirmed kill. The areas are presumably under utilized. And so on.... From what I'm seeing, it seems that we as hunters are doing a pretty darn good job. Why squeeze any harder?

And lets not forget the NEW requirements of goats in a group...... Now it would be different IF we were hitting our allowable harvests and the nanny ratio was being over targeted, my opinion would be different. As is, if there isn't a conservation concern, we should just chill and tag along for the ride. :smile:

[Mr. Dean]

guess I'm calling bs on the sources.

I'm holding back but am hedging toward. :wink:


I don't know how the CI 'ticks'.

If an inspector does 3 nanny's in a week (example pulled from my ass), who all does he/she call with that news before them stats are compiled on MOE's database?
IIRC, a hunter has 30 days for CI (correct me if needed).
What's the time frame for the inspector to then forward the results to MOE and for it then to become public knowledge (how vast is the Que)?

[6616]

Bearslayer;
If the wheel ain't broke, why even try fixing it?


As it stands right now, there is 1 nanny that's a confirmed kill. The areas are presumably under utilized. And so on.... From what I'm seeing, it seems that we as hunters are doing a pretty darn good job. Why squeeze any harder?

And lets not forget the NEW requirements of goats in a group...... Now it would be different IF we were hitting our allowable harvests and the nanny ratio was being over targeted, my opinion would be different. As is, if there isn't a conservation concern, we should just chill and tag along for the ride. :smile:

Don't forget those new GOS areas in Region 4 went on GOS for a reason, that reason being these areas are remote or have difficult access, and are chronically under-utilized areas with rugged difficult terrain, and are unpopular areas for hunters,,, and all that will continue under GOS. I'd be surpized if there were much more than a couple dozen goats shot in all those GOS MUs combined.

On average the female goat harvest in R4 runs about 25%, or about 12 to 15% of the AAH depending on the MU, but in some other regions it's higher, and anything higher than 25 to 30% of the AAH definitely is a serious conservation concern.

But you're right Dean, let's not create a perception of a problem when there may be not be one. There's still a bunch of goats not CIed yet and there will probably be more nanny kills before it's over, but I'm pretty sure there will not be a conservation concern in the new GOS areas in Region 4. If that's the area the original poster was referring to he has received some very bad information.

[6616]

I'm holding back but am hedging toward. :wink:


I don't know how the CI 'ticks'.

If an inspector does 3 nanny's in a week (example pulled from my ass), who all does he/she call with that news before them stats are compiled on MOE's database?
IIRC, a hunter has 30 days for CI (correct me if needed).
What's the time frame for the inspector to then forward the results to MOE and for it then to become public knowledge (how vast is the Que)?

The bios keep pretty close tabs on the CI inspectors and most of them report every few days or whenever they have a few reports to forward. The final numbers will not be known exactly until well after the season closes but the bios will have a pretty good unofficial idea what's going on on a week to week basis all through the season.

Also depends on the species, the smaller the harvest the better the bios unofficial idea of what's going on will be. With very small harvests like bighorn sheep in Region 4 I'm pretty sure they have pretty close to final numbers already. Complete compilation into a database - sometime in January or early February, and keep in mind a lot of that info will never become public knowledge, just the numbers, and even that will not be given out freely.

[GoatGuy]

I'm holding back but am hedging toward. :wink:


I don't know how the CI 'ticks'.

If an inspector does 3 nanny's in a week (example pulled from my ass), who all does he/she call with that news before them stats are compiled on MOE's database?
IIRC, a hunter has 30 days for CI (correct me if needed).
What's the time frame for the inspector to then forward the results to MOE and for it then to become public knowledge (how vast is the Que)?

From what I read the reference was to the gos and 89% nanny harvest so in my mind the discussing is about the new gos which are only a couple mus.

89% isn't exactly a 'round' number. To make it easy off the top of my head the only way you could end up with 89% nanny harvest would be to have a sample of at least 100 ci's.

100 goats out of those mus would be a pile of goats, especially if the ministry only has ci's of 1 nanny being shot.

There's a bunch of other reasons to doubt it, it could be true but it smells like bullshit.

[Mr. Dean]

[quote=6616;788063]The bios keep pretty close tabs on the CI inspectors and most of them report every few days or whenever they have a few reports to forward. The final numbers will not be known exactly until well after the season closes but the bios will have a pretty good unofficial idea what's going on on a week to week basis all through the season.
[quote]

Yeah, I recall a "Goat Concern" from a couple years back and thought that things were monitored fairly closely. Thanks for confirming.

[Mr. Dean]

From what I read the reference was to the gos and 89% nanny harvest so in my mind the discussing is about the new gos which are only a couple mus.

89% isn't exactly a 'round' number. To make it easy off the top of my head the only way you could end up with 89% nanny harvest would be to have a sample of at least 100 ci's.

100 goats out of those mus would be a pile of goats, especially if the ministry only has ci's of 1 nanny being shot.

There's a bunch of other reasons to doubt it, it could be true but it smells like bullshit.

Believe me, I don't think that the info we have is accurate. I'm just trying to wade through what I can. Something is amiss.

[bearslayer01]

agreed squeeky wheel gets the grease

Bearslayer;
If the wheel ain't broke, why even try fixing it?


As it stands right now, there is 1 nanny that's a confirmed kill. The areas are presumably under utilized. And so on.... From what I'm seeing, it seems that we as hunters are doing a pretty darn good job. Why squeeze any harder?

And lets not forget the NEW requirements of goats in a group...... Now it would be different IF we were hitting our allowable harvests and the nanny ratio was being over targeted, my opinion would be different. As is, if there isn't a conservation concern, we should just chill and tag along for the ride. :smile:

[scope-bite]

Just wondering if anybody has heard anymore about the harvest in the new goat GOS zones in R4? Was talking to a local who was pretty concerned with high localized harvest in a couple of the MU's with better access.

[Mr. Dean]

Just wondering if anybody has heard anymore about the harvest in the new goat GOS zones in R4? Was talking to a local who was pretty concerned with high localized harvest in a couple of the MU's with better access.

I've asked around a bit and all I get is hearsay, too - Guess we'll have to be patient for the data crunchers to get their reports out.

[dutchie]

guess I'm calling bs on the sources.

Dont get all grumpy pants over it Goat Guy.

I could care less if you called bs on anything... your opinion does not matter a single bit to me. I am simply saying what I have been told by 2 people on either side of the fence. (it is amazing, they both match 2 times in a row..:shock:) shocking what happeneds with the truth.

Goatguy, the reason I have not told you were the people live is because you know to much of the BCWF from past posts you have... that is why you don't want me or them to know who you are and you want to know were the 2 members live.

You want to be a shadow and that is why you would not tell me who you were. As a resident hunter I want harmony between the GOABC and BCWF. Me telling you who they are will only cause havoc. Especially now.

From more recent number they have been updated to significantly better %'s then 89% nanny harvest... but have still weighed in on the nanny side.

if you we really interested in who they were you would have let me pass your name along and have them approve it.

keep in mind these numbers are not final numbers. these are snapshots into the goat seasons, and will not be finalized untill the final numbers are layed out by the ministery.

Dutchie

[Old Crow]

I think the original post was less about ''a gender'' and has a lot more to do with ''Agenda''.
Just MHO

[GoatGuy]

Dont get all grumpy pants over it Goat Guy.

I could care less if you called bs on anything... your opinion does not matter a single bit to me. I am simply saying what I have been told by 2 people on either side of the fence. (it is amazing, they both match 2 times in a row..:shock:) shocking what happeneds with the truth.

Goatguy, the reason I have not told you were the people live is because you know to much of the BCWF from past posts you have... that is why you don't want me or them to know who you are and you want to know were the 2 members live.

You want to be a shadow and that is why you would not tell me who you were. As a resident hunter I want harmony between the GOABC and BCWF. Me telling you who they are will only cause havoc. Especially now.

From more recent number they have been updated to significantly better %'s then 89% nanny harvest... but have still weighed in on the nanny side.

if you we really interested in who they were you would have let me pass your name along and have them approve it.

keep in mind these numbers are not final numbers. these are snapshots into the goat seasons, and will not be finalized untill the final numbers are layed out by the ministery.

Dutchie

Could care less at this point, you've gotten a bunch of people worked up, wasted their time and wasted Ministry time. Your post is what caused havoc, not what those people said.

Your numbers are crap and this is the kind of rumour mill garbage, like what's going on in the West Koots about elk, that drives hunters apart and makes hunting look bad to the public. Surprised there was no anti-hunting letter in the sun, province or an anti-hunting interview on CBC, that's usually what happens next. Same as the garbage posted about Spatsizi on here - it happens regularly.

There's nothing 'amazing' about the same numbers twice, it's just recycled garbage (not the truth as you have inferred) and it happens all the time - you'd be at least the third person to repeat it, right? :neutral:

The CIs are notsupposed to be disclosing that kind of information to the public (my guess is they aren't and that it's all made up) and if it's your intent to keep the rumours flying that's fine. In any case there are other folks who can deal with them.

Could care less on the sources, there are honest people who are taken advantage of and quite a few culls who will take advantage of them scattered all over this province.

I can GUARANTEE the bug was put in your ear and somebody took advantage of you either inadvertently or on purpose - it happens ALL THE TIME. Unfortunately, you were naive enough to take it as gospel. You've been had and for a moment the rest of us were as well. Best part is you still believe them because of the 'updated numbers' you've heard about.

The harvest is still weighted to nannies? Interesting. How many goats were shot in how many MUs? 3, 15, 70, 200 goats? From one mountain or across 3 MUs? The actual number of goats shot seems rather germane to the topic at hand? "100% of the goat harvest was female - there was one goat shot!"

Lastly, most of the people on here know who I am, how that's relevant I'm not sure. It is odd that suddenly you've become a 'fact checker'. Approve my name with bullshitters? Hm, that's funny. :) You'll find them clamming up real fast, guaranteed.

Remember, I'm not the one spreading rumours.

7 pages later...............

I hope this gets locked.

[GoatGuy]

I think the original post was less about ''a gender'' and has a lot more to do with ''Agenda''.
Just MHO

100% correct.

[bigwhiteys]

GoatGuy,

What is the process of CI's for inspecting a Goat? Do they require proof of sex on the carcass or do they identify strictly on the horns brought in????

Carl

[BCrams]

GoatGuy,

What is the process of CI's for inspecting a Goat? Do they require proof of sex on the carcass or do they identify strictly on the horns brought in????

Carl

Just the horns Carl.

Its pretty easy to distinguish male / female horns in your hands. The ability of the inspector to ID / distinguish the two could be in question at times I am sure just like some are incapable of aging sheep properly.

[GoatGuy]

GoatGuy,

What is the process of CI's for inspecting a Goat? Do they require proof of sex on the carcass or do they identify strictly on the horns brought in????

Carl

Just the horns.

[bigwhiteys]

So what is the accuracy of the CI's on billy vs nanny when 95% of hunters can't even figure it out and we already know the inconsistencies of our CI's.

Show the inspector the goats junk and then determining the sex is 100% accurate.

Carl

[GoatGuy]

So what is the accuracy of the CI's on billy vs nanny when 95% of hunters can't even figure it out and we already know the inconsistencies of our CI's.

Show the inspector the goats junk and then determining the sex is 100% accurate.

Carl

It's possible, probably not a bad idea.

[bigwhiteys]

It's possible, probably not a bad idea.


If one was looking for the most accurate data to make management decisions with then it should be the ONLY way.

Carl

[willy442]

It is my belief that the majority of nannies shot by hunters are shot with the knowledge that they are in fact nannies.

As long as it is legal to shoot a nanny, and nannies are the easiest goats to kill, there will be a large segment of hunters (previously described) that will continue to shoot them. These hunters are the ones that are half dead of a coronary by the time they make it half way up a mountain, and blast away at the first goat they see, knowing full well that they will probably not hunt goat again and don't care about the biological or hunting oportunity reprocussions of shooting a nanny.

We all know these people, let's not kid ourselves.

I agree fully and would like to add that middle aged nannies are no different than 7 year old Rams. They are the strong breeding stock and the up and coming leaders of thier herds. To kill off these animals in short term may go virtually unoticed but over time it will screw our hunting. I'm glad there is at least a few out there concerned and not buying the old allowable harvest crap put out by the Ministry, based on poor information.

[willy442]

That's not the total number of goats harvested BP, I just asked for the female numbers. I thought it would be premature to ask for more detailed numbers with two weeks left in the season, nice weather, hardly any snow up high, good goat hunting still, so there will be more goats shot.

Number of females shot to date in the GOS MUs: One female shot in 4-29, zero females shot in the other GOS MUs.

GOS areas in Region 4: 4-27 to 4-30, 4-34, 4-36, 4-37, 4-39 and 4-40.

If these are numbers given to you by the ministry, then they are no better at telling female goats from Billies than they are at aging rams. I myself have seen photos of nannies on this forum. I also know of a couple nannies taken out of Bella Coola along with a few taken in region 7. So you are definately recieving bad info.

[6616]

If these are numbers given to you by the ministry, then they are no better at telling female goats from Billies than they are at aging rams. I myself have seen photos of nannies on this forum. I also know of a couple nannies taken out of Bella Coola along with a few taken in region 7. So you are definately recieving bad info.

Re-read my post Willie, the numbers quoted were for the new GOS areas in Region 4 only.

[Tuffcity]

95% of hunters can't even figure it out and we already know the inconsistencies of our CI's.


If the hunter still can't figure it out after they've started to field dress the animal then there IS a big problem! :) It's not like you drop off the horns while the CI person does their thing then you come back a week later and pick the horns up. If the CI calls the wrong gender you'd hope the hunter would pipe up and correct the guy.

RC

[willy442]

What ever! The point is DON'T SHOOT NANNIES. To try and justify the fact that it's O.K. by the numbers as you, GG and Mr. Dean are implying is just as wrong as actually shooting them. The trigger happy hunter, guided or not will do nothing to strengthen our existance as hunters, education is a good start, but then again you can't help stupid unless "he" wants to learn.

I also think Dutchie was talking about all the Goat harvest not just region 4.

[ufishifish2]

My view is that your tags are way to inexpensive !!
I paid 350.00 as a nonresident to hunt goats. I had no problem to pay that amount because to me It's a privelage to hunt goats. especially without an outfitter.
Animals that are prone to over harvest should cost a shit pile more then they currently do.
That in itself will limit the hunters pursuing that species. I dont believe creating more LEH will mitigate the problem of over harvesting etc. that just reduces hunter oppertunities which is what you all want more of correct ??
I think my solution of jacking up the tag fee's for these "sensitive" species like goats and Sheep etc. for both residents and non alike is the way the MOE will go in the future.
T

You must be employed by the government out east. It's just got to be!!! Are you really so brilliant that the first idea which naturally pops into your brain for a solution is to raise taxes???????
Genius, pure genius! http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv194/ufishifish2/NAA.gif

[GoatGuy]

I agree fully and would like to add that middle aged nannies are no different than 7 year old Rams. They are the strong breeding stock and the up and coming leaders of thier herds. To kill off these animals in short term may go virtually unoticed but over time it will screw our hunting. I'm glad there is at least a few out there concerned and not buying the old allowable harvest crap put out by the Ministry, based on poor information.

The older nannies are actually the most productive, at least that's what the research tells us. People generally think it's OK to harvest older nannies but it appears that view point couldn't be anymore wrong.

Also, according to the science, the best goats to harvest are the young ones.

[GoatGuy]

What ever! The point is DON'T SHOOT NANNIES. To try and justify the fact that it's O.K. by the numbers as you, GG and Mr. Dean are implying is just as wrong as actually shooting them. The trigger happy hunter, guided or not will do nothing to strengthen our existance as hunters, education is a good start, but then again you can't help stupid unless "he" wants to learn.

I also think Dutchie was talking about all the Goat harvest not just region 4.

There are several areas where a nanny or two won't hurt the population. There are many populations where the is 0 goat harvest.

The smaller and easier accessed populations are the ones where there is risk. The bulk of the changes have come in Region 4 (couple MUs moved to GOS and a significant increase in LEH) and that is the area most people have their eyes on.

From Dutchie:

"Apparently there was a 89% Nanny harvest in the GOS this year. They are planning on shutting it down next year altogether due to sustainability of the Goats."

Most of the goats in the southern half of Region 6 are LEH, Region 5 LEH, Region 4 LEH with some open MUs, Region 3 LEH, a bit of LEH in 7b and 7a. So no, I don't think it's all goat harvest if he stipulated GOS.

Now, taking it one step further I have no idea how the Ministry can be thinking of shutting "the GOS" down if they don't have the CIs in yet?

[bigwhiteys]

Taken From:

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/recovery/management%20plans/MtGoat_MP_Final_28May2010.pdf Pg 25-26.


Mountain goat populations are sensitive to adult female mortality because of comparatively late age at first reproduction (e.g., 4–5 yrs at Caw Ridge) and low production and survival of kids (Festa-Bianchet et al. 1994; Côté and Festa-Bianchet 2001b; Hamel et al. 2006). Hunter harvest tends to be concentrated on the largest individuals, consequently harvested females are often the dominant animals of the most productive age group (Côté and Festa-Bianchet 2001b), which has a significant impact on recruitment (Festa-Bianchet et al. 1994; Côté and Festa-Bianchet 2001b).

Females aged ≥ 7 years, those of the highest social rank, and females of the highest body mass account for most of the kid production and recruitment of yearlings to the population (6,7,8 year old goats would be roughly middle aged. - they live to be 11,12,13?)

(Côté and Festa-Bianchet 2001; Festa-Bianchet and Côté 2008). Population modeling of small to medium size (25–50 animals) mountain goat populations in western Alberta suggests that while recruitment is more variable, survival of adult females > 5 year olds has the greatest potential to influence population changes (Hamel et al. 2006). Modelling by Hatter (2005) suggested that smaller populations require lower harvest rates on females to remain stable.

Many jurisdictions in North America report the proportion of females in the harvest between 20 and 40% (Toweill et al. 2004). The negative impact of female harvest on small populations is probably magnified (Hamel et al. 2006).

Carl

[GoatGuy]

Taken From:

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/recovery/management%20plans/MtGoat_MP_Final_28May2010.pdf Pg 25-26.


Mountain goat populations are sensitive to adult female mortality because of comparatively late age at first reproduction (e.g., 4–5 yrs at Caw Ridge) and low production and survival of kids (Festa-Bianchet et al. 1994; Côté and Festa-Bianchet 2001b; Hamel et al. 2006). Hunter harvest tends to be concentrated on the largest individuals, consequently harvested females are often the dominant animals of the most productive age group (Côté and Festa-Bianchet 2001b), which has a significant impact on recruitment (Festa-Bianchet et al. 1994; Côté and Festa-Bianchet 2001b).

Females aged ≥ 7 years, those of the highest social rank, and females of the highest body mass account for most of the kid production and recruitment of yearlings to the population (6,7,8 year old goats would be roughly middle aged. - they live to be 11,12,13?)

(Côté and Festa-Bianchet 2001; Festa-Bianchet and Côté 2008). Population modeling of small to medium size (25–50 animals) mountain goat populations in western Alberta suggests that while recruitment is more variable, survival of adult females > 5 year olds has the greatest potential to influence population changes (Hamel et al. 2006). Modelling by Hatter (2005) suggested that smaller populations require lower harvest rates on females to remain stable.

Many jurisdictions in North America report the proportion of females in the harvest between 20 and 40% (Toweill et al. 2004). The negative impact of female harvest on small populations is probably magnified (Hamel et al. 2006).

Carl
At the top end, senescence begins at around 10 years or less.

Another thing that was interesting in Alberta is that as they aged Nanny's threw more males than females.

Fiesta-Bianchet and Cote have a bunch of 'easy to read' stuff on goats which is great for anyone who's keen.

[BCrams]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned natural goat mortality in all this which may have more far reaching impacts than hunters will. (predators, avalanche, cliff falls, forest harvesting etc).

Many healthy goat populations in BC are not in isolation like the Caw study.

In any case, regarding CI reporting, I'm pretty sure most hunters are pretty honest to tell the inspector whether the goat they shot had nuts or tits. Most are under the impression CI's will know what sex when they see the horns anyways.

[willy442]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned natural goat mortality in all this which may have more far reaching impacts than hunters will. (predators, avalanche, cliff falls, forest harvesting etc).

Many healthy goat populations in BC are not in isolation like the Caw study.

In any case, regarding CI reporting, I'm pretty sure most hunters are pretty honest to tell the inspector whether the goat they shot had nuts or tits. Most are under the impression CI's will know what sex when they see the horns anyways.

Maybe I'm wrong but I thought the thread was about refraining from shooting nannies. Natural mortality is another matter.

GG: Do you support shooting nannies? If not why all the crap about it won't hurt the Goats. If you do then theres no need to continue the discussion.

[GoatGuy]

Maybe I'm wrong but I thought the thread was about refraining from shooting nannies. Natural mortality is another matter.

GG: Do you support shooting nannies? If not why all the crap about it won't hurt the Goats. If you do then theres no need to continue the discussion.

No I don't, but it's nothing to get in a panic about in areas with large populations in contiguous range and low (often no) harvest. I worry about the risk in small populations with easy access.

[stoneguide]

I think Goat Guy is on the right track!
For one female harvest should be regulated for sure. But in healthy populations it does not hurt no matter what anyone beleives. If the population of goats in certain areas can sustain the harvest of a few Nannies than there should be no whining about it... but the harvest and population should be monitored yearly to make sure that population still can sustain it and hold at an even or increasing number.
If the populations are declining then yes the Nannies should not be harvested and with that the factors(most often not the human harvest) that are contributing to the decline should be addressed.
Just because you close hunters from harvesting females doesnt always mean that your going to improve the population. Many times when a population is in decline it is due to a few contributing factors such as habitat destruction, predators(wolves,eagles,cougars, wolverine, bears etc), disease, hunting, high mortality in young, bad weather years and others.

To many people jump on the band wagon(not saying its the case here) about female harvest destroying populations when they shoud step back, have a good look at the big picture, set personal feelings aside, wait for honest population and harvest numbers(not internet hear say) and then make a more informed opinion.
SG

[willy442]

I think Goat Guy is on the right track!
For one female harvest should be regulated for sure. But in healthy populations it does not hurt no matter what anyone beleives. If the population of goats in certain areas can sustain the harvest of a few Nannies than there should be no whining about it... but the harvest and population should be monitored yearly to make sure that population still can sustain it and hold at an even or increasing number.
If the populations are declining then yes the Nannies should not be harvested and with that the factors(most often not the human harvest) that are contributing to the decline should be addressed.
Just because you close hunters from harvesting females doesnt always mean that your going to improve the population. Many times when a population is in decline it is due to a few contributing factors such as habitat destruction, predators(wolves,eagles,cougars, wolverine, bears etc), disease, hunting, high mortality in young, bad weather years and others.

To many people jump on the band wagon(not saying its the case here) about female harvest destroying populations when they shoud step back, have a good look at the big picture, set personal feelings aside, wait for honest population and harvest numbers(not internet hear say) and then make a more informed opinion.
SG

I don't disagree that the taking of the odd nanny in large populations is of major concern. I tend to look past that at the overall picture of having a legal nanny harvest. If we continue to have this allowance in our regulations, we will always have the trigger happy hunter that gets on a herd of goats and blasts away taking one. This situation damn sure happens and has even been posted on here. The idea behind it is always the same "I have a goat tag and even if the goat over there is a nanny, it won't matter if I take one". This seems to be the mentality of many hunters and one I strongly disagree with. Once we have the true Nanny harvest we will see how often. If all hunters were good and proper ethical decisions were made before triggers being squeezed it most likely wouldn't be a problem.

[stoneguide]

I don't disagree that the taking of the odd nanny in large populations is of major concern. I tend to look past that at the overall picture of having a legal nanny harvest. If we continue to have this allowance in our regulations, we will always have the trigger happy hunter that gets on a herd of goats and blasts away taking one. This situation damn sure happens and has even been posted on here. The idea behind it is always the same "I have a goat tag and even if the goat over there is a nanny, it won't matter if I take one". This seems to be the mentality of many hunters and one I strongly disagree with. Once we have the true Nanny harvest we will see how often. If all hunters were good and proper ethical decisions were made before triggers being squeezed it most likely wouldn't be a problem.

Tough though as many guys are very good ethical hunters and just dont understand the aspects of managment. They think that if the tags are either sex then that means that taking either sex wont hurt anything. And they should rightfully think this way. It shouldnt be up to hunters to know what populations can handle or other stuff that our biologists are supposed to do. If the harvest of a female is going to harm the population then its up to the decision makers to say there is no season. It shouldnt be a bunch of us hunters jumping a fellow hunter because he harvested a legal animal with a legal tag. I agree that there are guys out there that no matter what they will shoot the first goat they see, but I dont think these are huge numbers of the guys out there.
If there are true numbers stating a problem then lets figure out what is causing the problem and then fix it.
Is hunter harvest the reason goat numbers arent high? Then maybe someone can exlain to me why Alberta's goat population hasnt flurished? Only a couple small areas have a season at all. Others havent been hunted since the early 80's due to poor population numbers. The reason is that the elimination of goat hunting didnt get rid of what was hurting the population! I know I know its Alberta not BC but the same issues are effecting both.
Just my 2 cents. And maybe im off base but I think guys are targeting the wrong issues concerning goat populations.

Back to the OP... If the actual female harvest numbers is 89% overall then yes there is an issue but till the true factual numbers from each managment zone are published then its pretty tough to have a thread on the issue.
SG

[willy442]

It shouldnt be up to hunters to know what populations can handle or other stuff that our biologists are supposed to do.

I totally disagree with your statement. If us hunters fail to work for the betterment of our spieces continually. While relying on methods fueled from political views to dictate our actions without accountability, we are in trouble. The reason I think this way and take this stand is: Here in BC we cannot even get enough money back from the general revenue fund to fuel our game wardens, let alone fund any realistic type of research. We see all the postings by those such as GG and 6616 who are now alot closer to the front lines on this then I'am presently. I can say though it really hasn't appeared to change much since I was involved. The same old games and stratagies are being replayed over and over. The only change is the players.

[stoneguide]

It shouldnt be up to hunters to know what populations can handle or other stuff that our biologists are supposed to do.

I totally disagree with your statement. If us hunters fail to work for the betterment of our spieces continually. While relying on methods fueled from political views to dictate our actions without accountability, we are in trouble. The reason I think this way and take this stand is: Here in BC we cannot even get enough money back from the general revenue fund to fuel our game wardens, let alone fund any realistic type of research. We see all the postings by those such as GG and 6616 who are now alot closer to the front lines on this then I'am presently. I can say though it really hasn't appeared to change much since I was involved. The same old games and stratagies are being replayed over and over. The only change is the players.

I know what your saying. But most hunters dont have the time or resources to completly get into all the game managment issues. Many guys dont travel or hunt certain areas much. Many dont hunt goats and a few other species often and some only once or twice in a lifetime(im sure everyone has been in this catagory) . These guys have no way to know what is taking place in them areas other than from second hand info. These guys should be able to trust the system enough to say hey they are issuing these tags so there shouldnt be an issue.
Of coarse we need hunters and such involved with managment and voicing themselves but the problem then lies in the fact that hunters dont always understand what is actually going on out there. Sure they see populations struggling or feel populations are struggling and such and want to help out with the issue but lots of times they dont really know what the issue is or let personal ideas cloud the truth. Many hunters dont want to beleive that sometime what is best for population isnt whats best for hunters.

Some hunters have a great grasp on what is happening with managment and such and they are a great asset out there but a poorly informed hunter trying to help can be more harm than good.

And without proper surveys and research any type of managment plan is pretty tough to acheive. You need to know the animal numbers, harvest numbers, predator kill ratios, natural mortality averages and much more info that the avreage hunter has no idea of and that most hunters will never see. And yes hunters can help with this to a point. As long as they have factual unbiased information.

You can not manage hunters alone an expect to accomplish anything. Without the above information anything being done is just a guess and that is what a vast percentages of hunters have when it comes to population and managment.

SG

[brno375]

Apparently there was a 89% Nanny harvest in the GOS this year. They are planning on shutting it down next year altogether due to sustainability of the Goats.


Apparently 89% of men in White Rock wear evening gowns. They are planning on holding a formal ball but due to a lack of heels in men's sizes, the sustainability of the event looks bleak. Just what I heard.

As for the nanny harvest, show me documentation.

Happy New Year everyone!

[stoneguide]

As for the nanny harvest, show me documentation.



Exactly!!!

[willy442]

I know what your saying. But most hunters dont have the time or resources to completly get into all the game managment issues. Many guys dont travel or hunt certain areas much. Many dont hunt goats and a few other species often and some only once or twice in a lifetime(im sure everyone has been in this catagory) . These guys have no way to know what is taking place in them areas other than from second hand info. These guys should be able to trust the system enough to say hey they are issuing these tags so there shouldnt be an issue.
Of coarse we need hunters and such involved with managment and voicing themselves but the problem then lies in the fact that hunters dont always understand what is actually going on out there. Sure they see populations struggling or feel populations are struggling and such and want to help out with the issue but lots of times they dont really know what the issue is or let personal ideas cloud the truth. Many hunters dont want to beleive that sometime what is best for population isnt whats best for hunters.

Some hunters have a great grasp on what is happening with managment and such and they are a great asset out there but a poorly informed hunter trying to help can be more harm than good.

And without proper surveys and research any type of managment plan is pretty tough to acheive. You need to know the animal numbers, harvest numbers, predator kill ratios, natural mortality averages and much more info that the avreage hunter has no idea of and that most hunters will never see. And yes hunters can help with this to a point. As long as they have factual unbiased information.

You can not manage hunters alone an expect to accomplish anything. Without the above information anything being done is just a guess and that is what a vast percentages of hunters have when it comes to population and managment.

SG

Guess this is where you I fail to have the same concerns. I could care less about what a hunter has or is capable of. My concern is only with maintaining high enough animal numbers, that allows for continued hunting along with public support. Nanny goats are most often a herd animal and as such travel in groups mixed with kids. The image of some resident hunter blasting away at a group of this mixture can do nothing but harm to both my concerns. I've yet to be able to be 100% sure when watching a herd of nannies and kids to tell a dry nanny from a wet one at a distance and I'm damn sure the average hunter can't either. On the other hand Billies are often in small groups of 2 or 3 if not alone. This alone is enough information for most to help assess sex. What's wrong with regulating it like Bears. When if young are present, you can't shoot?

[stoneguide]

Guess this is where you I fail to have the same concerns. I could care less about what a hunter has or is capable of. My concern is only with maintaining high enough animal numbers, that allows for continued hunting along with public support. Nanny goats are most often a herd animal and as such travel in groups mixed with kids. The image of some resident hunter blasting away at a group of this mixture can do nothing but harm to both my concerns. I've yet to be able to be 100% sure when watching a herd of nannies and kids to tell a dry nanny from a wet one at a distance and I'm damn sure the average hunter can't either. On the other hand Billies are often in small groups of 2 or 3 if not alone. This alone is enough information for most to help assess sex. What's wrong with regulating it like Bears. When if young are present, you can't shoot?

Never said anything about not agreeing with a family group rule. It will help some for sure and is a step in the right direction but isnt gunna eliminate the nannies being shot.
There are still going to be guys shooting goats out of groups just like there are still bears shot out of family groups.
Im more in line to go with a no Female rule if there is any issue with the numbers shot. Populations can either handle it or not.
And like I said hunters harvesting Nannies may not be the problem! Show me total population numbers, total male and female harvest, and natural mortality rates. You can move rules in to control hunters harvesting a few nannies and not help the populations at all. All that may do is put a new regulation in that may not be needed and that doesnt do squat to solve the problems.
What are the actual harvest rates from the past few years? What percentage of goats harvested were nannies over the last few years?
What numbers of goats are taken by predators? How have predator numbers changed in the last few years? How much has the population been dropping over the last few years?
No one has shown actual numbers here but everyone wants to make changes. Just like I said sometimes personal opinion blinds people.

[Manglinmike]

I agree that having a no family group rule would slow down the nany harvest, but,I allsoagree that people well still kill goats out of the family groups.Stoneguide has a very good point in regaurds to info,if you dont have all the numbers to put into the equation,it cant be solved! How old do the nanny have to be to breed,and how often do they breed,and do they normally have one or two kids?I think that most hunters could answer theys questions about deer and moose,but I personally dont know bugger all about goats and would like to change that,let's have some info from the guys in the know please.

[6616]

From the 2010-2011 regulation synopsis page 2:


There is no open season for any female mountain goat accompanying
a kid (any goat with horns less than 10cm), or a female
mountain goat in a group that contains one or more kids.

[6616]

I can't tell you much about other reguions, but I know the details from Region 4.

Estimated population is 8590 goats, the AAH is 331 which was increased from about 225 in 2007, so based on that I have to assume from that the R4 population is stable or growing.

Average harvest between guided hunters and residents combined is about 175 to 185 billies annually, about 25 to 40 nannies annually, for a total of about 200 to 225 total hravest. The nanny harvest by outfitters is by precentage slightly better than for residents. Overall the annual nanny harvest has ran around 15 to 20% of the total harvest. The highest recorded in recent years was 24% in 2004.

[bayou]

From the 2010-2011 regulation synopsis page 2:


There is no open season for any female mountain goat accompanying
a kid (any goat with horns less than 10cm), or a female
mountain goat in a group that contains one or more kids.



Even though it was in the regs I was told it wasnt being inforced this past season, and you still have to have the people to be willing to follow the rules or guidelines.

[stoneguide]

I can't tell you much about other reguions, but I know the details from Region 4.

Estimated population is 8590 goats, the AAH is 331 which was increased from about 225 in 2007, so based on that I have to assume from that the R4 population is stable or growing.

Average harvest between guided hunters and residents combined is about 175 to 185 billies annually, about 25 to 40 nannies annually, for a total of about 200 to 225 total hravest. The nanny harvest by outfitters is by precentage slightly better than for residents. Overall the annual nanny harvest has ran around 15 to 20% of the total harvest. The highest recorded in recent years was 24% in 2004.


Thanks for them numbers for that region. To me, if accurate, them numbers are fine havest stats. If they are uping tag alotments then like you say populations should be( but not 100% of the case) stable or increasing. In this case I personaly see no reason for big changes. The population is obviously doing fine there. If the population is stable or increasing then you know the hunters(Nanny harvest), predators, natural mortality etc isnt hurting things.
Again it all depends on the true numbers on how the other zones are doing.
SG

[willy442]

Even though it was in the regs I was told it wasnt being inforced this past season, and you still have to have the people to be willing to follow the rules or guidelines.

There was a post on here earlier of exactly that; a nanny shot out of a herd with kids.

[brno375]

I can't tell you much about other reguions, but I know the details from Region 4...Overall the annual nanny harvest has ran around 15 to 20% of the total harvest. The highest recorded in recent years was 24% in 2004.

I doubt the province average would be that different but I do not have those numbers. Anyone?

[Mr. Dean]

Willy442.

I'm not advocating a nanny harvest or 'anything', for that matter (exception being, not in favour of MORE leh). Before I get my undies wedgied up my crack, I'll wait for ministry reports THEN make a decision..... I've been here long enough to know that each and every year, the rumour mill starts up AND that at the end of it all, it usually always turns into nothing. So until I see factual numbers, it all means nothing to me.

FWIW, duchie and I chatted about this thread the other day. I do believe that he believes the information that he's been told; and that's fine with me - I pretty much reiterated my above paragraph as a response, then we went goose hunting together. Only the future will tell who's right.

Oh, Willy,,,, I also know that there's been sheep pics on here that you deemed (blatently) as being immature/illegal and that they've actually turned out to be *factually* mature/legal,,,, so I don't buy you're expertise either. All this is, is interweb playground - Show me facts, then I'll listen. Until then, pretty much all of this thread is a waste of time and space....

Just my thoughts. :smile:

[stoneguide]

Willy442.

Oh, Willy,,,, I also know that there's been sheep pics on here that you deemed (blatently) as being immature/illegal and that they've actually turned out to be *factually* mature/legal,,,, so I don't buy you're expertise either. All this is, is interweb playground - Show me facts, then I'll listen. Until then, pretty much all of this thread is a waste of time and space....

Just my thoughts. :smile:

I just wanna say that I may not agree with Willy on everything but I do respect his opinion alot! And grew up idolizing him after listening my Dad tell me stories of back when he guided for/with Willy. So I do buy into most of his"expertise" and vast field knowledge.

I know nothing about the sheep pictures(do you have a link?) mentioned either but I know that guys can be wrong(im sure you have been). Who called the ram mature/legal? CO's? You? Your Buddies?

And as far as this thread being a waste of time, well we do need more facts but these discusions many times bring out facts and with out these types of discusions and threads many issues and problems out there will never see the light of day. To me the only waste of time was your personal bash against a fellow member!
SG

[willy442]

Oh, Willy,,,, I also know that there's been sheep pics on here that you deemed (blatently) as being immature/illegal and that they've actually turned out to be *factually* mature/legal,,,, so I don't buy you're expertise either. All this is, is interweb playground - Show me facts, then I'll listen. Until then, pretty much all of this thread is a waste of time and space....




First off thanks for the support Stone Guide.

Mr. Dean: It is well known and documented that the proccess used to qualify a CI inspector is pretty much an embarrassment. Those that actually have seen and held numerous sets of both sheep and goat horns are far more qualified and able to determine sex,size and age. When I was actively involved and dealing with these inspectors on a weekly basis at minimum, it was clear that thier incompetence ran rampid.

When I look at and age a set of horns or estimate full curl status on a sheep, it is my opinion for what it is worth. If our incapable CI inspectors and wardens want to ignore the facts or follow most those on here that can't tell shit from shinola and allow illegal game to pass through our system to save embarassment so be it. I find those such as yourself and a few others are first to jump on the band wagon with these statements like "It was inspected and passed so it's legal". Let me remind you we have criteria that determines when something is legal and nowhere in that is it stated the CI is the person to determine this. What is supposed to happen if the animal is borderline is a call to the bio or someone higher up to assist with the decision. This rarely happens however for whatever reason and they are rarely more qualified than the original inspector, as you can see by some of the blunders which have already taken place in the system.

In closing if you would like to try and discredit me on something, maybe try on a topic not related to hunting and maybe one you know something about.

[leadpillproductions]

Here is a tid bit , i could be wrong but wasnt the world record b&c a nanny at on time . I seem to remember that . I personaly will only try to shoot billies 2 for 2

[willy442]

Too many nannies getting shot
[QUOTE] Had a compulsory inspection done yesterday at the Kamloops office for a sheep and I goat I just got on my last trip. When I phoned to make the appointment, the receptionist asked me whether my goat was a billy or nanny. I'd shot a billy after careful examination prior to the shot. The lady on the phone told me that I was going to be very popular when I arrived.

Arriving for my appointment, I recieved high fives and hand shakes from a bunch of the biologists and staff at the ministry office. They were ecstatic that I had a billy. The biologist who do my compulsory told me that my billy was the first one he'd done all year. All the other goats that had been brought in were nannies. He expressed siginifcant concern over this, saying that nothing but nannies are being shot this year in region 3 this year, as well as up towards Valemount in region 7. He even hinted that the M.O.E. was looking into closing the goat hunts in these areas for fear that the goat populations would be wiped out due to nanny harvest.

I'm not an expert goat hunter, I watched my goat for over half an hour before I shot, wanting to be absolutely sure that what I was shooting was a billy. I know and understand that not every hunt provides this kind of time for examination. All I'm saying is that we need to exercise better judgement in the field as a group or we are jeopardizing our hunting opportunities in the future.
[/QUOTe

Here is a post from earlier this year

[willy442]

Here is a tid bit , i could be wrong but wasnt the world record b&c a nanny at on time . I seem to remember that . I personaly will only try to shoot billies 2 for 2

No a nanny has never been the world record. A nanny has the longest set of horns in the book. If you have a Boone and Crockett book the goat was taken by A. Bryan Williams near Cassiar in 1916 the horn lengths are 12 1/8 by 12 1/2 with 4 6/8ths bases, with a total score of 50 4/8ths

[Mr. Dean]

....but I know that guys can be wrong(im sure you have been). SG

My point exactly and no, I'm not bashing on Willy; just pointing out that even *he* is susceptible in making the odd one (mistake) too..... For all I know, maybe the guys that fueled this question from the OP are mistaken as well. I really don't know - I need documented proof to *become* a believer. :smile:

Now, you have a 'somewhat' personal relationship w/ Willy, whereas I have none; It takes more than people that I don't know, stamping out a post on here to make me a believer in that post. Bottom line is, it's intraweb. It's not official. It's not even 'credible'. It's just hearsay - Which is, once again,,,,,, all of this thread.

Lemme see some facts, then let me decide what, if any action is needed in this presumed, nanny harvest catastrophe. At that time, I'd be MORE than happy to debate it out.

If anyone has links supporting their claims that are pertinent to this past seasons goat harvests, PLEASE post them up in a new thread. Thanks.