goats and cliffs

[Kalum]

Was our first sunny day since the begining of October and we headed for the hills in what turned out to be a hunters worst nightmare...
We hiked up and found some old tracks but nothing fresh. On the way back down we were joking around about seeing a goat on the trail when my buddy grabs my arm and say's holy crap.... goat! Right on the trail. Busted and he bolted down over the side.
After a brief pause we went right in after him thinking we might be able to get a shot. I had him in the scope twice and he wasn't aware of us, but never a clean shot and he went around another ridge. We had puffed our butts a long ways down and I figured for one more ridge line to see if I could get him scoped out again. I worked my way down and looking across the slope finally had a clean shot.
I lined up and actually had the time to think it through. 256yds- in my comfort zone with a good rest, he looked to be in a good spot- clearing with alder, access to get to the spot- required us to go back up and then down but totally doable if not a lot of huffing and puffing. I consider myself a pretty savvy mnt boy and same for my hunting partner, we've a spot if something goes wrong... so... I'm taking him.
First shot went low and he spun around face first looking at me as if asking wtf do you think you're doing shooting at me. I chucked another one right down the gullet and he went ass over tea kettle. Never seen an animal do that before. We marked the spot and sweated our way back up and over. When we got there we found that the alder marking the back edge of the clearing fronted the edge of a cliff and that he had gone over into the abyss. No access to be had without some serious cliff gear or a helicopter, and an unrecoverable dead goat. That's the sh!ttest feeling in the world, to lose an animal, and I've been beating myself up for it ever since looking over the edge of the cliff.
So here's the question back to you guys... would you or would you not not cut your tag?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Too bad.

Best thing to do is to call your local CO and explain what happened. If you know it's dead you should cut your tag.....but it would best to ask first.

SSS

[ramcam]

Dead goat, yes I would say ethically cut your tag.

[yamadirt 426]

Cut it. I will say no more

[Kalum]

I made the decision to cut it last night.

[peashooter]

cut tag no question. you know you killed it right.

[peashooter]

you type too fast. good call on the tag.

[Kalum]

it's a sh!tty thing and I guess I was just wanting to hear that others would do the same... ethics are real pain in the ass. There's some big billys up there:cry:
ah well, next year

[model88]

I could be wrong on this, cutting the tag may seem like the right thing to do, but, you have a cut tag, with no goat in your possession.....

Not saying that what you did was wrong, I am sure that most would do the same, but legaly, is this right or wrong?

You dont have to cut your tag to make the decision not to hunt them. Just my two cents....

88

[shallowH2O]

out of curiousosity, do you not have to have a goat inspected from your area. if you were to be stopped by a CO with a cut tag and no record of a CI could that not cause a minor cofuffle. might be wise to talk to the CO and let him know about the situation. but cutting the tag is the ethical thing to do IMO

[Kalum]

sure, good point. I'll talk to them tomorow. I did write on the tag what happened and the area it was in. Be a petty thing to nail me for something like that.

[llloyd]

There's some big billys up there:cry:
ah well, next year

Where'd you say this was again? :mrgreen:

[burger]

Page 10 of the regs.


Licence Cancellation

It is unlawful to be in possession of a big game
animal without a properly cancelled species
licence or otherwise by licence, permit, or as
provided by regulation. Any person who kills
any big game species must immediately cancel
the appropriate species licence.

Good call on cutting the tag.

[todbartell]

sorry to hear about what happened on your hunt. Similar thing happened to a friend a few years ago

I wouldn't cancel the tag but I would not hunt any more this season. That will essentially 'cut your tag' without getting yourself into trouble

[Gateholio]

I think you have made an error by cutting your tag as you now have a cancelled tag and no animal in your possession. I would have just stopped hunitng for goats this year.

[BCbillies]

Good call - a cut tag with a note on the backside should suffice. The "any person who kills . . . must immediately cancel" would infer right after the goat is airborne rather than after you have retrieved the animal.

BTW - where are those big billies?

[swampthing]

Good effort on the goat. Too bad about the fall. Call the CO. Reporting stuff like that goes a long way with building a trust with you local CO. Covers your ass on not havin it inspected as well.

[guest]

Sorry to hear the out come on this one, crappy for you and buddy.
Sounds like you put in a good effort though, that said, go see a C/O after cutting your tag, then hire a cliff hanger mountaineer to retrieve whats left.

For this very reason I too have passed up and just took pic's, not into dyeing trying to retrieve it either. So, not to be a prick but you should have known the terrain a little better.

If he's a dandy, hire some High Angle dude and have him bring the skull, buy a cape and get er done up into a Mount.

CT

[sherpa-Al]

Sorry to hear about the lost goat, Mtn goats live on the edge, literally. Similar situation happened to my goat hunting partner a bunch of years back. We had stalked a huge goat that was in a good flat spot but near the edge of a nasty cliff. My partner anchored him with a shot through the shoulders. As we ran up he gave the goat another shot for good measure but the goat still managed to kick himself off the edge. A day out and around, 2 days attempted retrievel and a few more grey hairs found us without the goat who was hung up 2/3 of the way down the cliffs. The same questions were raised about laws and ethics concerning the cutting of the tag. Because we were unsure, he did not cut his tag but did not hunt Mtn goats for the remainder of the season. A quick call to the CO office probably would have been a good thing in hindsight.

[Kalum]

know the terrain better? It's the mountains curlytop, the area was scouted but there's no way to get intimate with it all. Thanks for the soundback though, posting this was a little bit of a penance for me.

[dutchie]

Sorry to hear about the goat, I could only imagine how much it would suck when you can't recover anything.

I don't think that cutting the tag is the best idea,rather do what Gates and Bartell have already said, I would just stop hunting the species.

Cutting a tag without the animal , especially one that needs a CI, could open yourself up for a whole lot of grief later on down the road.

I think in the future you should just stop hunting the deer, moose, elk, sheep goat or whatever species that you have canceled the tag for if it is un-recovered.

What you did shows true ethics and conservation and I wish that more hunters were like you.

Dutchie

[325]

Sorry to hear the out come on this one, crappy for you and buddy.
Sounds like you put in a good effort though, that said, go see a C/O after cutting your tag, then hire a cliff hanger mountaineer to retrieve whats left.

For this very reason I too have passed up and just took pic's, not into dyeing trying to retrieve it either. So, not to be a prick but you should have known the terrain a little better.

If he's a dandy, hire some High Angle dude and have him bring the skull, buy a cape and get er done up into a Mount.

CT

If you unt goats long enough, eventually one will end-up in a spot that can't be accessed. It's a reality of goat hunting.

[BCrams]

Its tough to lose a goat.

Mind my asking what this abyss looks like? All cliff? Mix of cliff / trees? Any pictures?

I have a good friend who's geared for alpine climbing and whom I just started taking out hunting. Does Mt Robson for kicks on a weekend!! Finding someone who can do this can probably retrieve your goat rapelling down and using ascenders back up etc.

[budismyhorse]

as others have stated, this is a risk while goat hunting. It happens from time to time no matter how confident you are in the spot he is in when you take the shot.


Anyways, you are an honest stand up guy and you will be treated as such.

DO: Call a local CO and talk to them IN PERSON. If you cut your tag, HAVE THEM SIGN THE TAG AS WELL. Then you are free of all potential trouble/BS when another CO checks your tag in future trips.

[Alpine Addict]

I lost a Goat off a cliff this year too! I know how it feels. I guess its part of the game though. Makes you feel pretty bad though.

[ufishifish2]

Thanks for having the nuts to post this Kalum. I'm looking forward to hearing what the CO has to say. I know this could happen happen to me by accident on any goat trip I head out on.

[BlacktailStalker]

I'd cut it, especially if an LEH area.
There are only so many allocations for a reason.

I echo what BCRAMS says.
Lotsa guys use repellers to get their hounds back... for a couple hundred bucks you could likely get your goat.

[KodiakHntr]

So you cut your tag, but how are you going to do the compulsory inspection now?

Bad move cutting the tag, opens you up to a world of problems later if you get stopped, or questioned on it. If you have a species tag cut that has a critter that has compulsory inspection requirements, expect to be asked about it.

You legally are not supposed to cut that tag until you have possession of the animal.

[huntcoop]

I highly doubt all you goody 2 shoes or Saints would cut your tag if ya couldn't find that buck ya thought you'd hit. I for one would not cut my tag, I'd not wanna cross a CO with a cut tag and no CI papers.

[TSW]

If you unt goats long enough, eventually one will end-up in a spot that can't be accessed. It's a reality of goat hunting.

Not if you're Curly Top!:mrgreen:

As far as the tag is concerned, I think the best thing to do is cut it and explain if pulled over. What kind of trouble are you going to get in for not possessing the animal? You'd get in huge trouble for possessing it WITHOUT a cut tag, but what are they going to nail you with when you cut your tag and don't have anything to show for it? In my opinion you did the right thing.

[TSW]

And just for the record, who carries their CI papers around with them for the rest of the season? I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ here, I've never even thought of that before. A guy is going to have to start carrying a file folder around with him to make sure he has everything just in case he gets stopped!! :)

[KodiakHntr]

Don't have to carry them around, but you can be asked to provide them at a later date.

You will be charged with an improperly cancelled big game tag, or pre-cancellation.

Which stems from party hunting, in that maybe you got a call that a buddy killed your animal, and then you cut your tag and are on your way out to get it, or when you got there he wanted to keep it, etc.....

It simply raises more questions than it is worth, to cut the tag when the animal isn't in your possession.

[BCbillies]

You legally are not supposed to cut that tag until you have possession of the animal.

Page 3 of the regs "The species Licence must be cancelled immediately upon killing the animal."

Page 10 of the regs "Any person who kills any big game species must immediately cancel the appropriate species licence."

Where in the Wildlife Act or in the regs does it talk about being in possession and then cutting the tag? :confused: I always like to learn new things! Not having to cut the tag until you have your hands on the critter may result in more high chance shots being taken.

[boxhitch]

I bet no one cancels their tags til they lay a hand on the dead critter.
Why would you ? Its not dead til you poke it in the eye.

[dana]

A few years ago I wounded a big buck I had been hunting for several years. There were many here on HBC that said I was unethical for not cutting my tag at the time. 3 1/2 weeks later, on the last day of the season, I finally caught up with that buck and killed him. Had I cut my tag when I wounded him, I wouldn't have been able to finish what I started 3 1/2 weeks earlier.

As for the goat, I have a friend that had the exact thing happen to him. Goat was down. Slid, rolled, and one last kick, sent him over a huge cliff. He landed on a ledge and was unretrievable. He was sick about it but he cut his tag and contacted the Ministry to let them know. They were greatfull for that dead goat could now be tracked for their harvest objectives.

[Brambles]

Its tough to lose a goat.

Mind my asking what this abyss looks like? All cliff? Mix of cliff / trees? Any pictures?

I have a good friend who's geared for alpine climbing and whom I just started taking out hunting. Does Mt Robson for kicks on a weekend!! Finding someone who can do this can probably retrieve your goat rapelling down and using ascenders back up etc.

I would make an attempt to go down after it, I have access to the right people and the right gear to make a safe attempt, if it gets too hairy then you can say you tried

[.308win]

A few years ago I wounded a big buck I had been hunting for several years. There were many here on HBC that said I was unethical for not cutting my tag at the time. 3 1/2 weeks later, on the last day of the season, I finally caught up with that buck and killed him. Had I cut my tag when I wounded him, I wouldn't have been able to finish what I started 3 1/2 weeks earlier.

As for the goat, I have a friend that had the exact thing happen to him. Goat was down. Slid, rolled, and one last kick, sent him over a huge cliff. He landed on a ledge and was unretrievable. He was sick about it but he cut his tag and contacted the Ministry to let them know. They were greatfull for that dead goat could now be tracked for their harvest objectives.

The guys in Victoria actually told him he did the right thing by cutting his tag! I was in the office with him when he called it in!!

Perry

[ufishifish2]

That's what I figured. Thanks for the clarification .308 Win.

[BCbillies]

I bet no one cancels their tags til they lay a hand on the dead critter.
Why would you ? Its not dead til you poke it in the eye.

Many may not cancel their tag if they wounded it but to the best of their knowledge the animal may still be alive. Seeing an animal piled up lifeless on an inaccessible cliff would be another story . . . in this case there is no need to poke the eye for confirmation. The animal is dead, killed, deceased, etc . . . hence the tag is cut.

In the case of a wounded animal some may not cut the tag but they will however call it a season for that species as they have been given their opportunity to seal the deal!

[luckynuts]

Page 3 of the regs "The species Licence must be cancelled immediately upon killing the animal."

Page 10 of the regs "Any person who kills any big game species must immediately cancel the appropriate species licence."

Where in the Wildlife Act or in the regs does it talk about being in possession and then cutting the tag? :confused: I always like to learn new things! Not having to cut the tag until you have your hands on the critter may result in more high chance shots being taken.


Funny how you should bring this up. Today I stopped in to the Buick creek store on the way home from work and was bsing with some locals "They had an elk in the back of the truck" The shooter was fined last year by a CO won't mention names:-D The reason he was fined was because there was blood on his CUT TAG Which meant he Touched his animal before cancelling his tag! I was going to put it in a new thread but hey fits in right here:wink:

W.

[lorneparker1]

Funny how you should bring this up. Today I stopped in to the Buick creek store on the way home from work and was bsing with some locals "They had an elk in the back of the truck" The shooter was fined last year by a CO won't mention names:-D The reason he was fined was because there was blood on his CUT TAG Which meant he Touched his animal before cancelling his tag! I was going to put it in a new thread but hey fits in right here:wink:

W.


Not saying that this is untrue. But holy fack thats ******ed, I would blow a gasket.

[budismyhorse]

Not saying that this is untrue. But holy fack thats ******ed, I would blow a gasket.

it isn't that *******ed.

you may not realize that law is in place because there are PLENTY of people both in the past and present that shoot game and try to get it home without cutting a tag.....meaning they will go out and get another one. Ask ANY CO in the bush if they have ever pulled over a truck and seen little triangles of paper on their lap or a freshly cut finger from frantically cutting a tag as the CO walks up.....you may be an honest guy.....but there are plenty that are not.

as well, there is probably alot more to that story than the poster or the shooter is letting on.

[TSW]

A few years ago I wounded a big buck I had been hunting for several years. There were many here on HBC that said I was unethical for not cutting my tag at the time. 3 1/2 weeks later, on the last day of the season, I finally caught up with that buck and killed him. Had I cut my tag when I wounded him, I wouldn't have been able to finish what I started 3 1/2 weeks earlier.

I would say the difference here is wounding an animal and knowingly killing an animal. If you wounded it and found the trail you would likely be able to get some kind of an idea as to how badly it was damaged, which it sounds like you did, hence still hunting it.

[KB90]

Funny how you should bring this up. Today I stopped in to the Buick creek store on the way home from work and was bsing with some locals "They had an elk in the back of the truck" The shooter was fined last year by a CO won't mention names:-D The reason he was fined was because there was blood on his CUT TAG Which meant he Touched his animal before cancelling his tag! I was going to put it in a new thread but hey fits in right here:wink:

W.

I've touched my license after I gutted an animal, more or less just double check every things okay before I put it away for good. Doesn't mean the blood was from before I cut the tag, could have easily got there even though I already cut my tag? Hell I've dropped my license in a puddle of blood.

I would be fighting that one.

[boxhitch]

The shooter was fined last year by a CO won't mention names:grin: The reason he was fined was because there was blood on his CUT TAG Which meant he Touched his animal before cancelling his tag! Maybe......if the tag owner incriminated himself with a story.
Otherwise who can say what type of blood it was or where it came from
...Maybe.....

[coach]

We read about people being fined and charged for things all the time, but to actually be found guilty of an offense it would have to be proven in a court of law. It is a person's right to dispute the charge. I doubt there is any chance the fine for having blood on a cut tag would result in a guilty verdict. It would need to be proven that the tag was not cut until after the animal was touched and it is also highly likely that the judge would need to believe that the hunter intended to not cut his tag. Lot of guys cut the throat of a downed animal. Sometimes that animal is still alive before the throat is cut. In other words, there are lots of scenarios that could result in blood on a canceled license.

As for what this thread was originally intended to discuss: was this billy called in? What did the CO say?

[Tenacious Billy]

Go back and re-read post #37.

I don't think that's the goat in question.....:wink:

[coach]

Sorry, huntcoop, I thought that post was in regard to Dana's friend from a couple posts earlier.

[huntcoop]

I don't think that's the goat in question.....:wink:

I think you may be right :oops: .

[luckynuts]

it isn't that *******ed.

you may not realize that law is in place because there are PLENTY of people both in the past and present that shoot game and try to get it home without cutting a tag.....meaning they will go out and get another one. Ask ANY CO in the bush if they have ever pulled over a truck and seen little triangles of paper on their lap or a freshly cut finger from frantically cutting a tag as the CO walks up.....you may be an honest guy.....but there are plenty that are not.

as well, there is probably alot more to that story than the poster or the shooter is letting on.

Well There ain't more of a story that I'm aware of. If you want more Ask Dell Parker he was the CO that fined the Kid. His Step Dad does work for me in my field from time to time. It would be an easy one to fight, I have and always do double check my license when getting back to camp to make sure I didn't miss something.

W.

[Kalum]

coach- I left a message with the local CO office as well as sent in an email report looking for clarity, in the intrests of transperancy I linked this thread to the email.

[Kalum]

For the record...
contact was made with a local CO rep and I passed on the info. He said I was correct to cut the tag and appreciated the call, he also recorded the CI info for hunt stats.

End of this thread for me, time to go look for mulies:)

[BCbillies]

Thanks Kalum for the update . . . you'll sleep well knowing you did the right thing! Now that your tag is cut you can be the packmule and help others cut a tag. :wink:

[sherpa-Al]

I'm always looking for new goat hunting partners, I seem to go through them quite quickly! :mrgreen:

[Mountain Hunter]

I would have also cut my tag and reported the result to the local CO. Heck, I'd even offer to hike them up and show them the cliff and spot where the goat fell.

That being said, I'd also look into finding any friends or anyone who might be interested in an adventure to find that goat.

Years ago I helped some people (residents of BC) who grew up on the east coast who shot a goat and they thought the spot was crazy steep and inaccessible. I scrambled up to the spot the next day and walked right up to the goat and then rappelled 2 trips to bring everything down. Good thing it was cold as I believe they salvaged all the meat.

Somebody in your group of friends may be able to help you get a nice skull back anyways?

[llloyd]

if anyone is looking for a goat buddy I'm looking for someone who can show me the ropes after my failed attempt this year..

[coach]

Thanks for the update, Kalum. It's too bad things worked out the way they did, but I'm sure other HBC members will learn from your experience.