MOE to scrap LEH??

[ravensfoot]

I was at my F&G club meeting the other night and hear that the MOE is planning on scrapping the LEH for all of BC. This news apparently came from a CO that spoke to the F&G club president. Has any one heard of this or is it just a rumour?

[Essential]

never happen to much of a cash cow

[bridger]

I was at my F&G club meeting the other night and hear that the MOE is planning on scrapping the LEH for all of BC. This news apparently came from a CO that spoke to the F&G club president. Has any one heard of this or is it just a rumour?


through negotiations with the bcwf the moe has committed to reducing the number of leh hunts in the province and using leh as a last resort management tool. as resident hunters we can look forward to more general open seasons and more hunting opportunities. this is part of as strategy to recruit more hunters into our ranks.

[PointMan]

Well, I don't know if it's true or not, but I sure like the sounds of it.

[curt]

I'm with essential on this highly unlikey #1 a huge cash cow and although they claim the money generated goes back into the resource we all know it goes to general revenue so i call bullshit!! #2 More open seasons will be great for the first couple of years but once the heards are thinned back down to dangerously lower numbers seasons will close like the moose west of williams lake and 100mile 20 yrs ago, since the reopened it on leh hunting in these spots has a high success rate. As much as i hate leh i say more liberal amount of draws but keep it going because atleast they can somewhat keep an eye on things (in theory) GOS can quickly impact heards, look at the moose pop in region 3 it is absolutely top notch an open bull season will destroy that heard within a few years!?!?!? The only way it could work in my opinion is heavy anlter restrictions on everything.

[sparkymacker]

In my opinion the LEH is a less than equitable system of distributing hunting opportunities; so I would welcome any move to abandon it.

[lilhoss]

Finally!!! I'll get my Rosey on the Island!Cause after a year or two they'll all be gone.I agree,don't see it happening unless hunter numbers and harvest numbers drop off the map.Would be nice though.

[curt]

yup get your elk quick it wont take long and they will all be gone. Go for a buffalo the same year they will be gone twice as fast!!

[bridger]

I gotta admit some guys absolutley amaze me! how anyone can equate a general open season with the absolute destruction of a wildlife population is beyond my comprehension. the moe would not implement such a season, nor would the bcwf support such a season. properly managed open seasons give everyone an opportunity to hunt, leh plays into the hands of the goabc and anti hunters and severely restrict resident opportunity thus reducing our numbers. we have lots of open seasons in the province and lots of wildlife. Instead of mandatory core hunters should be required to pass a common sense test.

[GoatGuy]

I'm with essential on this highly unlikey #1 a huge cash cow and although they claim the money generated goes back into the resource we all know it goes to general revenue so i call bullshit!! #2 More open seasons will be great for the first couple of years but once the heards are thinned back down to dangerously lower numbers seasons will close like the moose west of williams lake and 100mile 20 yrs ago, since the reopened it on leh hunting in these spots has a high success rate. As much as i hate leh i say more liberal amount of draws but keep it going because atleast they can somewhat keep an eye on things (in theory) GOS can quickly impact heards, look at the moose pop in region 3 it is absolutely top notch an open bull season will destroy that heard within a few years!?!?!? The only way it could work in my opinion is heavy anlter restrictions on everything.

That's actually not accurate, the moose population was healthier when it was GOS. The reason the GOS was closed was due to ticks and high winter/spring mortality. It actually had nothing to do with hunting and to be honest the population isn't as 'healthy' or as big as it was when it was GOS.

Also statistically speaking the success rate on GOS is actually lower than on LEH for several reasons, most of it being the temporal separation (ie draws are closer to the rut where GOSs in areas of high use are generally outside of the rut).



So far as the thread goes, there will always be LEH.

[Devilbear]

Factual information based on the work of well educated, field experienced RPBios and the observations of active outdoors people with decades of intense experience all over BC mean nothing on HBC, as we have seen so often.

The REAL "experts" on everything from handloading to Elk management ALWAYS seem to be those who are under 30, are incapable of basic English usage and have spent very little actual time doing or observing that which they post inflexible and oftimes adamant opinions on......

LEH is and always has been a VERY POOR method of game management and it should be totally eliminated in favour of GOS hunting for every species we have. There have never been as many Grizzlies, Elk, Turkeys (the avian kind) or Whitetail Deer in BC since I began hunting over 46 years ago as exist today...and I want to see the average guy who is a BC resident and cannot afford the fancy northern trips get the opportunity to kill some of this game to help feed his wife and kids.

This, is not self-interest, btw, I can easily afford the highend guided hunts here and in the "Territories", but, my sympathies are with the ordinary, working family and their right to hunt and eat OUR game.

[308Lover]

'Bear we stand alone in agreement. LOL

[mark]

Finally!!! I'll get my Rosey on the Island!Cause after a year or two they'll all be gone.I agree,don't see it happening unless hunter numbers and harvest numbers drop off the map.Would be nice though.


yup get your elk quick it wont take long and they will all be gone. Go for a buffalo the same year they will be gone twice as fast!!


So You guys think it will be open to any elk???? Bang yer head on the wall about 40 or 50 times and think about it! :roll:

[bridger]

Factual information based on the work of well educated, field experienced RPBios and the observations of active outdoors people with decades of intense experience all over BC mean nothing on HBC, as we have seen so often.

The REAL "experts" on everything from handloading to Elk management ALWAYS seem to be those who are under 30, are incapable of basic English usage and have spent very little actual time doing or observing that which they post inflexible and oftimes adamant opinions on......

LEH is and always has been a VERY POOR method of game management and it should be totally eliminated in favour of GOS hunting for every species we have. There have never been as many Grizzlies, Elk, Turkeys (the avian kind) or Whitetail Deer in BC since I began hunting over 46 years ago as exist today...and I want to see the average guy who is a BC resident and cannot afford the fancy northern trips get the opportunity to kill some of this game to help feed his wife and kids.

This, is not self-interest, btw, I can easily afford the highend guided hunts here and in the "Territories", but, my sympathies are with the ordinary, working family and their right to hunt and eat OUR game.



nicely said. thanks bridger

[slowkey]

Really beginning to question what Curt's motives are? every post is doom and gloom and the destruction of every animal in BC.

So in the 60,70 and 80's we had many more hunters with 100,000 hunters in the early 80's (and we had lots of animals) now we have 80,000 hunters are we just that more efficient that we will kill them all in 2 or 3 years?

[tomahawk]

In my opinion the LEH is a less than equitable system of distributing hunting opportunities; so I would welcome any move to abandon it.

I'm struggling with how a lottery draw system can be "less then equitable system of distributing hunting opportunities". Everyone gets the same odds so help me understand how its not equitable!!

[Tenacious Billy]

I'm struggling with how a lottery draw system can be "less then equitable system of distributing hunting opportunities". Everyone gets the same odds so help me understand how its not equitable!!

Equitable assumes a degree of fairness or equality........a lottery draw system negates the possibility of equality and replaces it with luck, randomness and chance. Unfortunately, a lot of guys on this site seem to have shit-house luck!!

[bridger]

I'm struggling with how a lottery draw system can be "less then equitable system of distributing hunting opportunities". Everyone gets the same odds so help me understand how its not equitable!!


here is an example of leh inequity. I have a friend you lives in prince george and has never drawn a leh moose tag in 25 yrs of applying. Personally I have applied for a bison tag every year since the hunt began and have never drawn. one of my friends has three another five. Leh authroizations tend to be on the conservative side therefore not only does leh artifically reduce your opportunities to hunt the conservative number of tags issued further reduces your odds. some leh hunts in the province are underscribed or have 1:1 odds so in those hunts why do we need leh? harvest rates can be controlled by season dates, antler restrictions, one in three etc. leh makes things easier for managers and reduces hunting opportunities.

[308Lover]

Tell that to me Tomahawk. I haven't had a tag in 23 years. My friends have had 5 or 6 out of the past 10 years. Why were they even allowed to enter before 3 years have passed? (my idea) This is NOT game sharing.I laughed myself sick when a buddy suggested we should apply every year IN CASE NOT ENOUGH APPLY FOR THAT ZONE! I'm laughing, but I'm also gagging.

[curt]

Dont get me wrong I like the idea of being able to hunt more often the issue is GOS in popular area's are very hard to regulate the amount of animals taken. And often by the time the ministry finishes dragging their feet the seasons are closed do to male female ratio being to low. A big part of the reason LEH was brought in was to control the harvest. I dont know what the answer is and I dont like leh much but whats the option???

[born2hunt]

sounds like a possible fishing adventure here ?

[curt]

Well Goat guy I dont know I've been hunting Region 3 for alot of years and I have never seen the moose population as healthy as it is now. The problem I see is open an area so close to the lower mainland to a gos for a very popular game animal like a moose and every tom dick and hairy will be heading 3 hrs up the road to hunt, and pressure will be insane. Seeing how somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of the provinces hunters are in lower mainland and those numbers are coming right from Victoria. I guess it doesnt really matter what they do if it goes sideways then they close it again and wait 10yrs no big deal. Just my opinion on things althought opening the flood gates is somewhat concerning to me, I'll be out there enjoying it with you while the gettins good:)

[Jagermeister]

Factual information based on the work of well educated, field experienced RPBios and the observations of active outdoors people with decades of intense experience all over BC mean nothing on HBC, as we have seen so often.

The REAL "experts" on everything from handloading to Elk management ALWAYS seem to be those who are under 30, are incapable of basic English usage and have spent very little actual time doing or observing that which they post inflexible and oftimes adamant opinions on......

LEH is and always has been a VERY POOR method of game management and it should be totally eliminated in favour of GOS hunting for every species we have. There have never been as many Grizzlies, Elk, Turkeys (the avian kind) or Whitetail Deer in BC since I began hunting over 46 years ago as exist today...and I want to see the average guy who is a BC resident and cannot afford the fancy northern trips get the opportunity to kill some of this game to help feed his wife and kids.

This, is not self-interest, btw, I can easily afford the highend guided hunts here and in the "Territories", but, my sympathies are with the ordinary, working family and their right to hunt and eat OUR game.I'll ditto this.

[J_T]

..... LEH is and always has been a VERY POOR method of game management .....
Just a point of clarity, LEH is really a hunter management tool, rather than a game management tool. it goes almost completely against any sort of recruitment agenda. Having said that, LEH will remain with us for some time, unless we all adopt a more conservative approach to weapons. Sticks and bows. Even then, the impact of moving off of LEH in some cases has too many impacts IE GOABC quota, native opportunity. These would likely have to be negotiated - in part - in future allocation discussions and Government policy discussions.

I'm doubtful we'll ever see the complete end to LEH. But we'll work to reduce it.

[BlacktailStalker]

Yeah.... I really doubt they'd open up the roosevelts on the Island :roll:

[lilhoss]

So You guys think it will be open to any elk???? Bang yer head on the wall about 40 or 50 times and think about it! :roll:

No,I don't think it will be open for any Bull,..but do you know it wouldn't?I don't need to bang my head against a wall thank you very much.My post was sarcasm,next time I guess I will point that out.I know the MOE will assess each and every area based on harvest data,winter mortality,reproductive numbers,etc,etc. and set quotas based on that.

[aggiehunter]

Heaven forbid you mention the word "quality"....shit...guess I'm still goin' to hell...see ya' all there..

[curt]

Hey Slowkey I'll give you that one I am a glass half empty kind of guy i always look at worse case it freaks me out to think our hunts will be less than profitable because there is nothing left. Trust me I want to hunt as much as the next guy, but I'm not greedy. i want my kids and their kids to have the opportunity too. I should be more positive but unlike alot of you I have little faith in the government and the judgement abilities I know them well I work for them! Here is my question I know there is someone out there that can put my 40yr old mind at ease........If there was never an isuue with over harvesting then why have we not just had GOS across the province forever???

[dana]

Well Goat guy I dont know I've been hunting Region 3 for alot of years and I have never seen the moose population as healthy as it is now. The problem I see is open an area so close to the lower mainland to a gos for a very popular game animal like a moose and every tom dick and hairy will be heading 3 hrs up the road to hunt, and pressure will be insane. Seeing how somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of the provinces hunters are in lower mainland and those numbers are coming right from Victoria. I guess it doesnt really matter what they do if it goes sideways then they close it again and wait 10yrs no big deal. Just my opinion on things althought opening the flood gates is somewhat concerning to me, I'll be out there enjoying it with you while the gettins good:)

Please show me these numbers where 90% of the hunters in this province come from the Lower Mainland? There are many many many towns in the Interior where the ratio of hunters is 80-90% of the local population. Add all these small and medium towns together and there is no way in hell the lower mainland produces 90% of the hunters in this province. Keep digging Curt. The more you speak the more you come out looking like a complete fool.

[Devilbear]

Just a point of clarity, LEH is really a hunter management tool, rather than a game management tool. it goes almost completely against any sort of recruitment agenda. Having said that, LEH will remain with us for some time, unless we all adopt a more conservative approach to weapons. Sticks and bows. Even then, the impact of moving off of LEH in some cases has too many impacts IE GOABC quota, native opportunity. These would likely have to be negotiated - in part - in future allocation discussions and Government policy discussions.

I'm doubtful we'll ever see the complete end to LEH. But we'll work to reduce it.


We do not need to become spear and/or bowhunters and many people who are struggling to barely exist and feed their families in BC's current society do not have the time to develop the skills one requires for successful bow hunting. One CAN obtain a decent Lee-Enfield and used scope and learn to humanely kill any game animal in BC....and, many oldtimers I knew as a boy did exactly that.

Hunter management-game management, in this context, the difference is a semantical one and we need to concentrate on maintaining our birthright to hunt OUR repeat OUR game for our sustenance and to continue our traditional BC outdoors culture. Six generations of my family have and do live in BC and my rights simply supercede any non-resident's and are equal to any aboriginal, regardless of the current legislation which is racist and culturally treasonous!

When, there are insufficient population levels to support a week-long GOS for any game species, then, there should be NO hunting allowed and this includes the indians. Then, policies such as "one in three or one in five", antler restrictions and, especially, motorized access restrictions can/should be employed to manage a given hunt.

Before all of this, there MUST be a ban on "non-resident alien" hunting in any region where BC citizens are restricted in any manner, from a long and liberal GOS. It is time to end the travesty of having the GOABC dictate what, when and where we can hunt!

[curt]

Dana

Steve Maciver 250 387 9767 senior project officer in charge of creating the hunting regs I talked in great length. Call him confirm whatever you want I am passing on what I was told period end of story. This was his words not mine. He is also the guy that told me they do not have funds to do accurate field work for data ask him about that too. So stick your insults up your A**

[curt]

that 90% according to steve is incooperating V island as well. you dont have to be a math wiz to figure it out....... big deal even if 90% of these small towns hunted if 1% of the population from hope to Van Island hunted that would be trumped huge think about before you insult someone and Im passing on what the (expert) was saying dont shoot the messenger!! Christ the more I try and have a reasonable discussion or debate with some of you the more I appreciate my dogs.

[Everett]

I gotta admit some guys absolutley amaze me! how anyone can equate a general open season with the absolute destruction of a wildlife population is beyond my comprehension. the moe would not implement such a season, nor would the bcwf support such a season. properly managed open seasons give everyone an opportunity to hunt, leh plays into the hands of the goabc and anti hunters and severely restrict resident opportunity thus reducing our numbers. we have lots of open seasons in the province and lots of wildlife. Instead of mandatory core hunters should be required to pass a common sense test.

A common sense test would remove half the hunters in BC

[bridger]

curt you are obviously a dedicated hunter and it appears your heart is the right place. A bit of advice from someone who has been there done that with the moe. Have a look at your hole card and make sure it is an ace . Some gov officials will tell you what you want to hear and it is not necesarily the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me god. Government officials seldom lie they just tell you the truth as they want you to understand it. Carefully consider your opinions and position and make certain they are your own views arrived at after examaning all the facts. You may find it eye opening.

[Devilbear]

I have been a member of the BCFS, the Alberta FS, worked for the BC F&W and the Canadian Coast Guard and have been offered further employment, even recently, with all of these agencies, except the BCFW.

So, with that background, I will simply say that "bridger's" comment above is EXACTLY what happens and it is just the way things are.

[BCLongshot]

Wow

As soon as Santa shows up to get those damn milk and cookies we've been leaving out for the fat ******* then and only then will I actually think that the LEH wiil go away.

[tomahawk]

Equitable assumes a degree of fairness or equality........a lottery draw system negates the possibility of equality and replaces it with luck, randomness and chance. Unfortunately, a lot of guys on this site seem to have shit-house luck!!

I hear what your sayin but when everyone gets an equal start in a lottery draw its equitable to me. Havin said that some have had better "luck" then others I agree, I happen to be one of them.

[bridger]

Wow

As soon as Santa shows up to get those damn milk and cookies we've been leaving out for the fat ******* then and only then will I actually think that the LEH wiil go away.


we will always have some hunts on leh but the moe and bcwf are committed to doing away with 50% of the leh hunts in the province.

[tomahawk]

here is an example of leh inequity. I have a friend you lives in prince george and has never drawn a leh moose tag in 25 yrs of applying. Personally I have applied for a bison tag every year since the hunt began and have never drawn. one of my friends has three another five. Leh authroizations tend to be on the conservative side therefore not only does leh artifically reduce your opportunities to hunt the conservative number of tags issued further reduces your odds. some leh hunts in the province are underscribed or have 1:1 odds so in those hunts why do we need leh? harvest rates can be controlled by season dates, antler restrictions, one in three etc. leh makes things easier for managers and reduces hunting opportunities.

Agree whole heartedly with your statement but I still believe that when everyone is given the same odds on a draw that eqates to equality to me. However i know some are luckier then others and some have a horseshoe permanently implanted.

[tomahawk]

Tell that to me Tomahawk. I haven't had a tag in 23 years. My friends have had 5 or 6 out of the past 10 years. Why were they even allowed to enter before 3 years have passed? (my idea) This is NOT game sharing.I laughed myself sick when a buddy suggested we should apply every year IN CASE NOT ENOUGH APPLY FOR THAT ZONE! I'm laughing, but I'm also gagging.

I agree, if your drawn for any animal there should be reduced odds for a period of time or no entry allowed. However the MOE would lose revenue so hence the current system.

[mark]

Would be nice to see Island rosie's open for 6 pt. and better, same time as the west koot season. (Spread out the pressure)
All moose Leh areas could easily go to a spike/fork season!

Open season on grizz would be nice also! :-D F/U Mr. suzuki!

[curt]

Bridger and devilbear I respect your comments and yes my heart is in the right place. I know how the poltics work trust me i do. One would hope when asked simple questions you could get a simple truth but unfortunately not very likely. I dont feed people full of sh*t i do not lie I dont claim to know everything in fact no more than anyone else, but any stat or fact I talk of was told to me from someone in the know. I have spoken with wildlife branch representitives often, and you are both likely very right I am getting the political response I should know better. As far as the LEH goes to me I think of it like a tax once in never to leave, and if it does leave it will only change it's appearance or name. I really enjoy this site most of the time I'm not into fighting or bantering I do that enough at work so I'm done here. Politics pi** me off too much if you havent noticed,but if i have offended anyone my appologies.

[chinooker]

Well Goat guy I dont know I've been hunting Region 3 for alot of years and I have never seen the moose population as healthy as it is now. The problem I see is open an area so close to the lower mainland to a gos for a very popular game animal like a moose and every tom dick and hairy will be heading 3 hrs up the road to hunt, and pressure will be insane. Seeing how somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of the provinces hunters are in lower mainland and those numbers are coming right from Victoria. I guess it doesnt really matter what they do if it goes sideways then they close it again and wait 10yrs no big deal. Just my opinion on things althought opening the flood gates is somewhat concerning to me, I'll be out there enjoying it with you while the gettins good:)


PERFECT!! keep the locusts within a 3 hour drive of the lower main land and there will be more than enough animals to go around for the rest of us:-D:-D just kidding!

[Spy]

Us hard working Tax paying residents of BC should not be on LEH.:-The MOE will lose allot of $$$ by removing the LEH for residents but if they are clever they can capitalize
off a lottery for foreigners, & still keep the guides employed.:wink::wink:

[Spy]

Would be nice to see Island rosie's open for 6 pt. and better, same time as the west koot season. (Spread out the pressure)
All moose Leh areas could easily go to a spike/fork season!

Open season on grizz would be nice also! :-D F/U Mr. suzuki!

I agree & would really enjoy hunting in my back yard,& not having to catch a ferry to go hunting big game.Or even worse put in for a LEH for 40 years with a slim to none chance of ever getting a draw.

[GoatGuy]

Well Goat guy I dont know I've been hunting Region 3 for alot of years and I have never seen the moose population as healthy as it is now. The problem I see is open an area so close to the lower mainland to a gos for a very popular game animal like a moose and every tom dick and hairy will be heading 3 hrs up the road to hunt, and pressure will be insane. Seeing how somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of the provinces hunters are in lower mainland and those numbers are coming right from Victoria. I guess it doesnt really matter what they do if it goes sideways then they close it again and wait 10yrs no big deal. Just my opinion on things althought opening the flood gates is somewhat concerning to me, I'll be out there enjoying it with you while the gettins good:)

You were taking about Region 5, not region 3 in your original post. There were times, before now, when the population was 'healthier'. Region 3 couldn't sustain a long any bull season for sure, but there are several ways where you could have a bull moose hunt that doesn't include LEH.

About 30% of the provinces hunters reside in Regions 1 and 2; there are several who never leave the Island and surprisingly a fair number of waterfowlers.

[reach]

I was at my F&G club meeting the other night and hear that the MOE is planning on scrapping the LEH for all of BC. This news apparently came from a CO that spoke to the F&G club president. Has any one heard of this or is it just a rumour?
Perhaps he was talking about scrapping the current manual mail-in system in favour of electronic entries. I think they're hoping to do this soon.

[6616]

Too good to be true!:shock:

I’m totally in favour of returning to GOS like it was in the 60’s, 70’s & 80’s.
The system worked well with twice as many hunters.
Ex.-The resident hunter population in BC has plummeted from a high of 174,001 in 1981 to 89,532 in 2006(IMO LEH takes most of the blame)
If availability of game in a particular region becomes scarce then close or drastically shorten the season, restrict vehicular access, impose bounty on predators, etc until the numbers improve.
On the other hand if there are too many cows, calves then have a longer GOS every now & then until the numbers are sustainable.

Re: LEH
-The MOE will tell you that the LEH system allocates hunting opportunities through a random draw when hunter demand exceeds wildlife availability. This is only the ½ truth
since there are also demands and priorities to be met from GOABC & FN that are usually discussed behind closed doors.

-Anti-hunters can apply for the LEH-(all one needs is a hunter’s number & if drawn one doesn’t need to buy a tag)

-Consider LEH discrimination based on national origin (foreign hunters don’t have to play the lottery)

-Nothing I hate worse than people bragging & gloating about their perpetual lottery luck.

Article-
Limited Entry Hunting is not a tool that encourages resident hunter opportunity, participation, recruitment and retention. It is a tool that breaks up hunting parties and destroys the social factors which are fundamental to the future of hunting. It is one of several tools which can be used to reduce harvest and should be used as a last resort.

Good post...!

[bridger]

Us hard working Tax paying residents of BC should not be on LEH.:-The MOE will lose allot of $$$ by removing the LEH for residents but if they are clever they can capitalize
off a lottery for foreigners, & still keep the guides employed.:wink::wink:


Your post is right on in my view. the present system of giving the tags to the outfitters for nothing to sell to the highest bidder costs the moe a huge amount of money. If non residents had to apply for tags for all species and were charged a non refundable fee of $150 (just to pick a number that co incides with the non resident preservation fund fee they pay directly to the outfitters) the moe could realize several million dollars annually. They could do away with a lot of unnecesssary resident leh seasons and have more income at the same time. the guides could keep their business. seems like a win win to me.

[ratherbefishin]

the basic flaw in the LEH system as a management tool is hunting is only a SMALL fraction of mortality-vehicles,railways,preditors,weather,disease all take their toll on a ''GOS'' basis -so whether or not hunting is ''managed'' or even eliminated has the SMALLEST impact on game populations.I read somewhere that hunting only accounts for 10% of the deer mortality.The only area of regulation should apply to small or fragile populations or in areas they want to build up-and likely preditor control should also be implemented along with hunting controls if they want to increase a herd

in the case of moose hunting in areas where herds might be considered vulnerable -I suggest a system of one moose tag per 3 hunter every year, one tag per group of two hunters every two years ,or one tag for one hunter every three years would be a more equitable system than a lottery draw-and still allow hunters to participate EVERY year if they so chose-all they would do is opt for sharing one moose between two or three of them

[curt]

Goat guy your right in my original post i was referring to region 5 and i may be thinking abit negative here but my thought is does every region have different budgets and funding I dont know but i i'm thinking no??? If region 5 doesnt have a budget for accurate field work wouldnt they all be very similar?? with government cuts backs eveywhere wildlife is always on or the first to get cut.

[Moosehunter64]

If they do eliminate the LEH system all they will do is have a GOS for a short period of time like 1 to 3 weeks and they will open everything at the same time so you will have to make a choice of what you want to hunt moose elk or what have you.Like in region 6 where they open moose for 6 or 7 days.And as for the revenue they take in on the LEH I am sure they will save that much and more when they layoff all those computer guys who enter the leh`s and run the draw.Hunting would be a much more simpler and easier to undertsand system.

[GoatGuy]

Goat guy your right in my original post i was referring to region 5 and i may be thinking abit negative here but my thought is does every region have different budgets and funding I dont know but i i'm thinking no??? If region 5 doesnt have a budget for accurate field work wouldnt they all be very similar?? with government cuts backs eveywhere wildlife is always on or the first to get cut.

Finding money as a manager is no different than anywhere else, some people have a knack for finding it, others can't see it if they're walking by it. Some don't need as much, others are more proactive and seek money from outside sources.

So, I guess, the answer is no, not all regions have the same amount of money.

[GoatGuy]

Heaven forbid you mention the word "quality"....shit...guess I'm still goin' to hell...see ya' all there..

If you want a 'quality hunt' I can tell you where to go, you won't see another hunter, not on an LEH hunt.

Heck even put the X on the map for you but you have to send pictures so I can see if you've got the work ethic and the hunting skills or if you're just a big talker.

[curt]

the basic flaw in the LEH system as a management tool is hunting is only a SMALL fraction of mortality-vehicles,railways,preditors,weather,disease all take their toll on a ''GOS'' basis -so whether or not hunting is ''managed'' or even eliminated has the SMALLEST impact on game populations.I read somewhere that hunting only accounts for 10% of the deer mortality.The only area of regulation should apply to small or fragile populations or in areas they want to build up-and likely preditor control should also be implemented along with hunting controls if they want to increase a herd

in the case of moose hunting in areas where herds might be considered vulnerable -I suggest a system of one moose tag per 3 hunter every year, one tag per group of two hunters every two years ,or one tag for one hunter every three years would be a more equitable system than a lottery draw-and still allow hunters to participate EVERY year if they so chose-all they would do is opt for sharing one moose between two or three of them
Ratherbefishin that is a pretty interesting thought it promotes hunting in groups sharing the harvest and limiting or somewhat controlling the amount of game harvested!?!?! not bad it is definately something you could build from.

[bridger]

i go on four or five quality hunts every year and none of them are leh hunts. all gos seasons and quality of our hunts is hard to beat.

[moose2]

I think hunters regulate themselves during GOS I have noticed in areas that game has thinned out , and or hunting areas have grown over. The camps get smaller and the number of hunters are way less. The lousy hunting and low harvest forces hunters too move around in search of new spots allowing the other area to start its recovery. It seems to work well and nothing has to be organized by anyone. I think bison season would be the same . The first GOS year you would have 3000 resident hunters each buying a $80.00 tag and spending a $1000.00 each for hunting expences showing up for opening morning. 100 bison ( give or take ) would get shot before the heards left over the mountains to find a quiet valley with less pressure. So the next season 2000 of the orginal hunters say screw that gong show I would rather stay closer to home and hunt deer and elk or what ever. So I think for reasons like this GOS would work just fine , and if there was an over harvesting issue in an area it could be dealt with through season closers like they did with the Hudson Hope moose 18 years ago. Or through life time harvest restrictions ie "one grizz per hunter or what ever would work" I am all in favour of scraping LEH myself
MIKE

[curt]

theory worth pondering moose2

[308Lover]

I totally agree with M.Potzold. In the 60's they ACTUALLY CLOSED SOME AREAS TO HUNTING! What a concept. I'd rather see that than bitch about LEH hunters from some "far-away land" getting tags every year and bragging about their success (lack of competition perhaps?) LEH does not give us equal opportunity for sharing this resource. After 23 years of negatives I should know.

[mark]

How about all sheep that are LEH areas going to full curl/ or mature season GOS!

The only problems hunters will have is deciding where to go, and what to hunt!

I think increased tag sales on things like elk, bison, and sheep, would far outgross revenue from LEH cards!

[GoatGuy]

How about all sheep that are LEH areas going to full curl/ or mature season GOS!

The only problems hunters will have is deciding where to go, and what to hunt!

I think increased tag sales on things like elk, bison, and sheep, would far outgross revenue from LEH cards!

It does, you're a sharp cookie.

Whoever came up with the idea that LEH is some kinda big money maker is right out to lunch. I think it's hunter myth #60.

[palmer]

LEH is messed up. I will give you an example. Two persons apply for and get 8-15 Nov Bull moose hunt as a shared hunt in 2009 with only 4 tags available.the odds are about 30 - 1. They are successful.
They both apply for the same hunt in 2010 and are both drawn and not as a group hunt but as a 2 singles out of 4 tags.
And this is a fair system....some guys will wait a lifetime for this tag...

And as for Moose, Region 3,4,5 and 8 should have a short open season for Bulls starting on the same day. Spread out the pressure and the harvest. Lots of moose and in that large an area lots of room spread out the hunters,.

[MuleyMadness]

LEH is messed up. I will give you an example. Two persons apply for and get 8-15 Nov Bull moose hunt as a shared hunt in 2009 with only 4 tags available.the odds are about 30 - 1. They are successful.
They both apply for the same hunt in 2010 and are both drawn and not as a group hunt but as a 2 singles out of 4 tags.
And this is a fair system....some guys will wait a lifetime for this tag...


Not sure what the point is here, this is the essence of a lottery system. If the two guys enter their cards, and screw something up on the shared portion, or they don't go into the same envelope together, they get entered as singles, which I would guess is what happened.

We have all heard the stories about unfair draws, or screwed up odds/tags, etc. I have a friend that has been drawn for moose in region 3 near Kamloops 3 years in a row...but that's just dumb luck, not evidence of an 'unfair' system. What I don't want to see is a 5 or 7 day season in one or two regions and the hordes of pressure that will put on an area.

Additionally, while no one likes having to draw for an animal, I do like the conservation aspect of it, and think it's an excellent way to ensure harvest numbers don't unnecessarily impact the populations. Personally I think the LEH system protects the animals that need protecting, but I do believe the authorizations should be much more generous in most areas. Furthermore, if animals are on LEH, and hence limited to resident hunters, the GOS should either have no quota, or a very limited number

[stever]

The LEH may not be fair but it is the system we have now. I have had 50/50 luck on the draws I try to pick a 1st choice that I want and a 2nd that gives me the best chance. If we go to the GOS it would be fair to all and a little hard on the popular MU's.
The 1 big problem will be all the hippies on the news claiming that we are killing everything that walks or flies just like the Griz debate.

[Fisher-Dude]

The 1 big problem will be all the hippies on the news claiming that we are killing everything that walks or flies just like the Griz debate.

Let 'em complain.

If we ban all hunting, they will start a Save the Mosquitoes campaign. Send your money now to help them stop the indiscriminate slaughter of these rare winged creatures.

[Devilbear]

Additionally, while no one likes having to draw for an animal, I do like the conservation aspect of it, and think it's an excellent way to ensure harvest numbers don't unnecessarily impact the populations. Personally I think the LEH system protects the animals that need protecting, but I do believe the authorizations should be much more generous in most areas. Furthermore, if animals are on LEH, and hence limited to resident hunters, the GOS should either have no quota, or a very limited number

I would appreciate your biological basis for this statement as I strongly disagree and think that there are better modalities of management with conservation as the primary goal and RESIDENT hunting as the next in importance. I do not accept and will never agree with the current travesty of aboriginal preference and am adamantly opposed to foreigners hunting in BC with foreign-owned or controlled GO companies.

So, while we seem to agree on some aspects of game management, I am curious as to how you can definitively state that LEH is beneficial in a conservation sense, as I do not think that is the case.

[bridger]

leh should be the last choice moe managers turn to when a need to reduce the harvest of a particular species occurs. there are other methods that can be used to control harvest and provide maimum hunting opportunities. one of the best methods they used was the rule in 7b stone sheep harvest a few years ago. that rule allowed resident hunters the opportunity to hunt every year if they harvested an 8+ yr old ram and if you shot a younger ram you sat out two years. that rule reduced harvest by 25% and allowed everyone an opportunity to hunt. much better than a leh tage every 10 yrs if you are lucky.

[MuleyMadness]

I would appreciate your biological basis for this statement as I strongly disagree and think that there are better modalities of management with conservation as the primary goal and RESIDENT hunting as the next in importance. I do not accept and will never agree with the current travesty of aboriginal preference and am adamantly opposed to foreigners hunting in BC with foreign-owned or controlled GO companies.

So, while we seem to agree on some aspects of game management, I am curious as to how you can definitively state that LEH is beneficial in a conservation sense, as I do not think that is the case.

DB let me correct you on one thing...we don't SEEM to agree on some aspects of game management, we definitely do. I too am completely against aboriginal preference and foreign owned/controlled GO's...I fact I started a thread way back when about it because I was astounded by the MOE allowing foreign owned GOs.

Regardless, my point with the LEH is this, and I apologize for not being more clear about my meaning. Currently we have an appalling situation where natives are allowed unlimited bag limits, unlimited seasons, and flat out illegal (night hunting, etc everywhere not in that one band on the Island). Until such a time as the government puts a stop to this, and its potential for gross overharvesting, I think the LEH allows wildlife managers and government biologists some 'room for error' so to speak by strictly controlling the number of animals, we, as non treaty indians, can take. I know it's not perfect, nor is a fantastic way of doing things, but I don't agree with short season openings in only a few MUs...simply because the hunt quality is terrible, with hunters from across the province descending on a small area in hopes of filling their tags. Again, I do not feel it is the best system out there, but until the government decides to grow a pair, then how can we ensure that overharvesting doesn't occur through GOS. I know you are going to say we need to stop the native preference, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. I am open to suggestions here, and am willing to listen to other ideas, but conservation is to me, and I know you, priority one.

Further I disguisted by the quotas being given to GOs in areas where there are no GOS and in some cases, fairly limited LEH. Here is an example of one for territory for sale currently north of Prince George, in regions 7-16 and 7-23, areas that require LEH for big bulls and cows. Their current 5 year quota - bull moose 180, cow moose 30, grizzly 9.
http://www.mccowans.com/content/hunting-territory-located-north-prince-george

I am sorry but any GO that can harvest 36 bulls and 6 cows in its 1100 square mile territory PER YEAR when the residents are on a not too generous LEH is simply not right. I know they have to make a living and so forth, but it's clearly an example of priorities gone awry.

If these two things were to be corrected (and one of them EASILY could be) then I think, at the very least it would be possible to make the LEH authorizations much more generous. If we fix them both, I see no reason why GOS couldn't be attained nearly everywhere in the province, except with very sensitive populations.

I don't have other scientific modalities to quote DB, nor do I have science to quote on this one, but like I said, I am open to other options, as long as the health of the animals is put first. I know it shouldn't lie entirely on our (our being those of us who hunt within seasons/bag limits and who aren't provided with GO quotas) shoulders and at our sacrifice to ensure the health of the animals, but if WE don't bear that burden without fixing the other issues, we have seen clear evidence that much of the other two groups don't care....so where would that leave us? I would be glad to hear other options, I truly would but I think, as the situation currently is, the LEH is a very good option.

[308Lover]

Give 'er Devilbear--I'm wit ya all the way! It's just hard to drag some others who get tags every year.LOL

[308Lover]

By the way--when do we get someone to admit this post is pure BS---(sorry) "speculation".

[palmer]

Not sure what the point is here, this is the essence of a lottery system. If the two guys enter their cards, and screw something up on the shared portion, or they don't go into the same envelope together, they get entered as singles, which I would guess is what happened.

We have all heard the stories about unfair draws, or screwed up odds/tags, etc. I have a friend that has been drawn for moose in region 3 near Kamloops 3 years in a row...but that's just dumb luck, not evidence of an 'unfair' system. What I don't want to see is a 5 or 7 day season in one or two regions and the hordes of pressure that will put on an area.

Additionally, while no one likes having to draw for an animal, I do like the conservation aspect of it, and think it's an excellent way to ensure harvest numbers don't unnecessarily impact the populations. Personally I think the LEH system protects the animals that need protecting, but I do believe the authorizations should be much more generous in most areas. Furthermore, if animals are on LEH, and hence limited to resident hunters, the GOS should either have no quota, or a very limited number

My point was that the present system is BROKEN, Both of these hunters were supposed to have there chances cut by 66% and then if they get past that the odds are 30-1 ....and they both get drawn again with only 4 tags . If you see nothing wrong with this system then I can't help you. We need more GOS and less LEH where people wait years to get drawn if ever. If we have to have LEH it should be a system where you can't be drawn 2 yrs in a row for only 4 tags and odds of 30-1.

[MuleyMadness]

My point was that the present system is BROKEN, Both of these hunters were supposed to have there chances cut by 66% and then if they get past that the odds are 30-1 ....and they both get drawn again with only 4 tags . If you see nothing wrong with this system then I can't help you. We need more GOS and less LEH where people wait years to get drawn if ever. If we have to have LEH it should be a system where you can't be drawn 2 yrs in a row for only 4 tags and odds of 30-1.

Well that is the essence of a lottery system Palmer...pure dumb luck, just like my friends wife getting 3 in 3 years here, where nothing is better than 15:1. It's not broken, it may seem unfair but really, how much more fair can you get than pure, random chance?

I do like the idea of no draw the year after a win, but you can't fix the issues present like that...we all KNOW what would have to be done to essentially remove or greatly reduce the amount of animals on LEH, the question is, do the politicians have the political will to make it happen? Today the answer is no, and THAT, not the LEH, is what is broken.

[Spy]

It does, you're a sharp cookie.

Whoever came up with the idea that LEH is some kinda big money maker is right out to lunch. I think it's hunter myth #60.

The LEH makes allot of money?:-DDo the math!
Its money made from selling nothing but a chance.:mrgreen:
A buddy & myself did the math on elk LEH draws on V island,Its a big chunk of change. I cant remember the exact numbers but you are welcome to work them out yourself.:wink::wink:

LEH system for foreigners & guide outfitters would make allot more money & give outsiders who want to hunt in BC All an "equal" Chance,dumb ass luck I would like to see the tables turned.

[GoatGuy]

The LEH makes allot of money?:-DDo the math!
Its money made from selling nothing but a chance.:mrgreen:
A buddy & myself did the math on elk LEH draws on V island,Its a big chunk of change. I cant remember the exact numbers but you are welcome to work them out yourself.:wink::wink:

LEH system for foreigners & guide outfitters would make allot more money & give outsiders who want to hunt in BC All an "equal" Chance,dumb ass luck I would like to see the tables turned.

Should have been more upfront, have been through the numbers.

It's money that comes in that pays for MoE staff and an independent company that was doing the draw, as well as a system that was only supposed to be used 'temporarily' - that was back in the 80s.

It would be like driving an 1980 chev p/u with 5 million miles on it - requires a couple of mechanics to keep it running, nevermind parts to run it (ie LEH synopsis, hardware/software maintenance etc).

A couple dollars on license and species fees would more than make up the revenue without the added costs of 'operating the system'.

[Spy]

Should have been more upfront, have been through the numbers.

It's money that comes in that pays for MoE staff and an independent company that was doing the draw, as well as a system that was only supposed to be used 'temporarily' - that was back in the 80s.

It would be like driving an 1980 chev p/u with 5 million miles on it - requires a couple of mechanics to keep it running, nevermind parts to run it (ie LEH synopsis, hardware/software maintenance etc).

A couple dollars on license and species fees would more than make up the revenue without the added costs of 'operating the system'.

Agreed.
I think its time to buy a new Pick up & get rid of the Mechanics:wink::wink:

[ravensfoot]

By the way--when do we get someone to admit this post is pure BS---(sorry) "speculation".

The post wasn't BS, I was just asking if anyone could verify what I had heard. By the looks of it no one can actually confirm is this is a rumor or not. :confused:

[bridger]

The post wasn't BS, I was just asking if anyone could verify what I had heard. By the looks of it no one can actually confirm is this is a rumor or not. :confused:

there has been no discussions of which I am aware that a wholesale turfing of the leh system is in the works. the moe has committed to the bcwf that a serious reduction in the NUMBER of leh hunts across the province will be reduced and switched to gos. that is for sure.

[6616]

MOE is currently doing a review of the LEH policy and procedures, that's all... nothing more.....completelly eliminating LEH is not even being considered.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

MOE is currently doing a review of the LEH policy and procedures, that's all... nothing more.....completelly eliminating LEH is not even being considered.

This makes the most sense ... expect the LEH to be run by IBM in the next couple years

[MuleyMadness]

This makes the most sense ... expect the LEH to be run by IBM in the next couple years

I would like an electronic system like the one run by IBM in AB...not too sure about the whole priority idea, because at least to the uneducated it seems a bit unnecessarily complicated, but I like the idea of deadline being today, and getting the results tomorrow.

[grizzly adams]

The idea of LEH being a cash cow is ludicrous. If 100,000 hunters spend $25 each on LEH draws there's only $2,500,000 in the revenue stream. In government terms that peanuts (depending on who's numbers we use that's 50 days in a hospital for one person).

The cost of a tag is at least three times the LEH draw cost so the government makes more when all of us buy tags not lottery tickets for tags.

Our government has surely figured out that the money spent by all of us on gear, accommodation, food and HST vastly exceeds the revenue from tags and licences.

If all of this is true then the Government makes far more money with a GOS with all kinds of restrictions such as the spike fork moose. There aren't many spike fork moose and the harvest rate won't likely hurt the population health. At the same time there are a lot of people (me included) excited about the possibility of getting to harvest a moose when the LEH draw in my area is hard to get.

I have bought a tag two years in a row and only heard of 2 or 3 immes in my whole area being taken every year. I know that I'll keep buying one just in case I do spot that illusive spiker.

Should the LEH system be changed... yes if it can be improved so that opportunities are better shared.

But at the same time, think of your licence, LEH draws, and tag fees as your best opportunity to communicate to our politicians that there are more than 100,000 hunters in the province who believe that wildlife resources including habitat should be properly managed to ensure our future opportunity to enjoy hunting.

I far prefer spending my money on licences and tags (and even LEH draws) than just seeing another general revenue tax hike. I'm very fortunate to have a politician like Bill Bennett in my riding who strongly supports the values of hunters. At the end of the day politicians like him have more ability to support us when there are real user pay dollars advocating for our shared cause.

[Devilbear]

That is a very well written, thought provoking and realistic post; I hope that you are a younger hunter and will be active in conservation as BC needs people like you involved in our future.

I am not very keen on Bennett, for several reasons, but, I do see your point about his support of hunters and would certainly consider this if voting in the East Kootenays, should we retire there.

[ianwuzhere]

i like the way it is now-bigtime general open seasons would hurt the populations a lot.. I hope the rumour is just a rumour...

[Fisher-Dude]

i like the way it is now-bigtime general open seasons would hurt the populations a lot.. I hope the rumour is just a rumour...

Really? Show us one instance of that happening here in BC. And with the current restrictive regulations on BC's GOS, it is statistically impossible to put a dent in BC's game populations.

We don't have enough hunters, we don't have enough access to this vast province, we don't have long enough seasons, and we don't have enough spare time in our lives to hunt the seasons we already have. That's why we'll never "hurt" game populations with GOS.

Methinks too many speak from the camp of ignorance on these issues. I wish they'd read the literature cited on here first. :?

[Devilbear]

Methinketh thou art right-on, dude!

I suspect that a lot of the naysayers to the GOSs may well have an agenda not in "sync" with the average BC resident hunter. It is the same attitude that we saw when people now living in the West Kootenays, strongly opposed the Elk opening.

I see NO valid biological constraints upon the implementation of GOS for ALL species in BC, given adequate monitoring of season's lengths and harvest success by the MoE.....but, Gordo, the beacon of the "neo-cons", (poor, deluded souls), recently CUT the funding for such initiatives, rather than increasing it, as he should.

The accursed GOABC is moiling away in Victoria and we will NEVER have the access we should to OUR game, as long as they are in business.