Antlerless Season

[Macgregor]

I was just looking through the 2006/2007 leh synopsis and seen they brought the december antlerless moose season back to a few areas around P.G. I was wondering how you guys out there felt about this hunt. I see there not giving out a lot of draws for this but I still don't agree with it. On the other hand it is a gauranteed moose if you get the draw (or at least as close as you can get to a moose gaurantee). Something just doesn't sit right with me about killing a pregnant cow standing on the side of the road or maybe in three feet of snow. Just my opinion. Look forward to hearing yours.

[moosecaller]

It is done to bring the cow/bull ratio back into line, they specifically want to know if the cow is pregnant to find out if the ratio is correct according to their count. This may not sit right with some but it is all part of proper management of the population. And yes it is a vertual gaurantee of putting meat in your freezer, a win / win situation for hunter and a healthy moose population.

[Mooseman]

I was just looking through the 2006/2007 leh synopsis and seen they brought the december antlerless moose season back to a few areas around P.G. I was wondering how you guys out there felt about this hunt. I see there not giving out a lot of draws for this but I still don't agree with it. On the other hand it is a gauranteed moose if you get the draw (or at least as close as you can get to a moose gaurantee). Something just doesn't sit right with me about killing a pregnant cow standing on the side of the road or maybe in three feet of snow. Just my opinion. Look forward to hearing yours.

I don't have a copy yet. Can you tell us in what MU's ?

[Macgregor]

7-07, 7-10, 7-16, & &-23

[Mooseman]

Thank you. Many years (15 or so) ago there was a public meeting about that season and from a 170 + residents I think one (1) was for this season and all others wanted it gone. A second vote was taken and the pure guy was not holding his hand up again.

I think after the moose count that was just done they feel ok with opening that season again?!

[moose hunter]

i think its great, usuakly u take a cow thats calf has been shot

[Macgregor]

Moose hunter, if you take a cow that has a calf in the middle of winter or any time for that matter that is even worse. I would hope if you did have this draw you would take the calf and leave the pregnant cow to have her calf in the following spring as if you took the cow you would probably be killing three moose. The cow, her unborn calf and the calf with her probably wouldn't survive the winter without the cow. I don't want to get in a big debate and obviously there are lots of people who think differently than I do considering they have the draw but it is something to think about.

[elkster]

Moose hunter, if you take a cow that has a calf in the middle of winter or any time for that matter that is even worse. I would hope if you did have this draw you would take the calf and leave the pregnant cow to have her calf in the following spring as if you took the cow you would probably be killing three moose. The cow, her unborn calf and the calf with her probably wouldn't survive the winter without the cow. I don't want to get in a big debate and obviously there are lots of people who think differently than I do considering they have the draw but it is something to think about.

You missed it, moosehunter said that if you shoot a cow, the cow's calf has probably already been shot. They do have a calf opening in some of those areas.

[Macgregor]

Maybe I misunderstood what he meant.

[PGKris]

I actually got to listen to Doug Wilson (MoE) explain this today. What I gleaned from the more moose harvest opportunities in both 7-16 and 7-23 was that:

The ministry is trying to lower the ungulate population so to also lower the number of predators to reduce the predation on threatened mountain caribou plans (While also allowing harvest opportunities for hunters to increase). Already, from explaining this to one person, I have been met with "That's a stupid ass idea and it wont work cause it takes too long" So try and just let me know what you think without insulting me or the biologists that make the decisions. Thanks.
And to reply to the question....I have no problem with the late cow draw.

[PGKris]

They will also be doing uterus studies to determine if the harvest is having too much of an effect on the future calf population.
Kris

[Blktail]

Let the game managers manage the game! As long as the freeking politicians don't get involved there is hope for hunters. The biologists have a reason for doing what they do. Perhaps it is experimental, but I am sure if it is the experiment is designed to prevent over harvest.
Rest assured that as long as the idiots in the stone towers in Victoria don't get involved the biologist are doing their best to maximize hunter days and harvest rates. It is not an exact science, but it is a science.
If you don't want a cow or calf, don't shoot one. Stop whining and let the biologists do their best given the circumstances.
If you want to make a difference, lobby the government to get the game regulations monitored by the judiciary rather than politicians. This would allow management practices to survive changes of government.

[boxhitch]

Let the game managers manage the game! As long as the freeking politicians don't get involved there is hope for hunters. The biologists have a reason for doing what they do.
I agree with this to a point. The decisions should be made on science, not agendas.


Rest assured that as long as the idiots in the stone towers in Victoria don't get involved the biologist are doing their best to maximize hunter days and harvest rates.

I have to disagree here. There are lots of biologists that are only looking out for the good of the flora and fauna. Many have no ties to hunters or hunting, and may or may not see how hunting can be a management tool, let alone a inherent right of residents. There may be a good mix of pro- and non-, but times are changing, so we have to keep up the pressure.

[moosecaller]

Biologists "use" hunting to manage game numbers and to keep the population healthy, they are tied to the hunters very closely. Hunting is part of the science not an agenda the polititians could really care less, as long as fees come in they don't care about the source. In todays economy and food raising practices hunting is not a right any longer it is a priviledge, (for anyone) we do not "need" to hunt to survive any longer. That being said if I was no longer allowed to hunt I would whither and blow away. Be thankful we live in a country that still allows us to persue this level of enjoyment.

[Macgregor]

Re Blktails response. I was just stating my opinion and wanted to hear others. I'm trying to be careful in not saying I'm right because as I've stated I'm really not completely sure what the right answer is and after hearing others response I may have a somewhat different outlook on this issue. That's what this site is all about. But remember just because someone brings up an issue that you don't agree with it doesn't mean they're "whining".

[Blktail]

Sorry Macgregor

I have heard a lot of complaining on this subject on other sites. I get especially tired of the guys who are too manly to shoot a doe or cow.

The main point to my reply is that at this point the biologists have a written mandate to provide huntable populations of game animals.

Moosecaller is partly right, the politicians care if the fees keep coming in. However, if enough Kalifornians move up here and poison the locals the politicians would put an end to hunting in a second. I notice more anti rhetoric all the time on the radio and tube.

[Macgregor]

Thanks. All these points were well taken and there are definetely more than one way to look at this hunt.

[moosecaller]

Pardon my ignorance what is a Kalifornian? And how does their opinion effect our hunting management? What influence do these Kalifornians have over our politicians? This needs some serious clarification! More rhetoric I must be out of the loop I have not heard too much in the past while,(perhaps you could reference the latest) maybe I'm too far north for the shakers,movers and Kalifornians to spread their word/poison. Biologist do not have a written mandate to provide a huntable population, their mandate is to maintain a healthy game population, hunting is one of the methods they use to do this.

[Fred]

MH, ever heard of the Sierra Club International, or the Nature Conservenc Group? Californian eco freak types lobbying for preservation(read elimination of activities) of our great outdoors. There are several groups of people who are attacking or love of the bush and our access to it. Read what kutney has to say and huntwriter, they are both well versed in the subject.
If anyone else is well versed in this topic and you didn't get mentioned, don't feel slighted, it's my lousy memory! :redface: Fred

[moosecaller]

Yes I have heard of the seirra club. I cannot see what kutney or huntwriter said cannot find their post here on anterless season. I fail to see what Californian eco freak types have to do with this I do not recall them lobbying in our provincial legislation, if you could find out when they did this and any report on it I would like to read it. Canada has it's own lobby groups that have their own agendas, I don't think Californians have too much input here into our LEH process. Once again perhaps you could reference the latest attack on our LEH by the californians, or kutney or huntwriter could address this. I try to keep current on all the movements out there but for the love of it I cannot remember anything about californian eco freaks involved in the game management practices in B.C. Please let me know what I have missed, if they are attacking our access to the bush I want to defend my standpoint.
PS. I don't want to sound like I am protecting our politicians, but I am not sure many people are familar with the way our government is set up. Politicians do not manage the ministries this is done by government employees, the politicians vote on and pass bills submitted to legislation these are then passed down to the ministry hierarcy and then policies and practice are developed based on the bills. So when someone says the politicians are into our game management this is not entirely true, it is the biologists and scientists who manage this process. There is no need to lobby government to allow biologist and scientist to monitor our game this is how it is done already. Making a statement like this is just as poisoness as the anti's, get the facts right.
PSS. I am on the government intranet(17 yrs.) and check all the news from the various ministries, I have not seen anything about eco freaks in the postings, if something happened I am sure I would have seen it. Please let me know what you were referring to in your post about these Californian eco freaks, a statement like this needs to be qualified.

[Fred]

MC, my memory is really quite poor and I cannot relate facts and figures usually with any accuracy unless they are right in front of me to read.
The eco freaks never reveal where they are from nor their true agenda. One has to learn about them or get inside of their groups to see what they are after. Watching them and reading about thier machinations will teach you about them and in time you will be able to spot them from a long ways off.
Kutney and Huntwriter are well versed in the ways of these eco freaks and though they may not have remarked on it here, one should look over everything that is written on your favorite sites. Learn about the "enemy" and how to deal with them.
There is a bunch more I would like to say but I seem to be suffering from "brainfade" this evening! :oops: :? Fred

[moosecaller]

The anti hunting types view us as uneducated neanderthals who go out and hunt and kill everything in sight, they are always looking for an angle to "attack" us from. By making statements that you cannot relate to with any accuracy simply confirms what they say about us hunters as a whole we are all put into the same group, you do not do us any favours by making statements that you have heard second hand or you think may be true, if you wish to help maintain our hunting priviledges be very careful what you say and always be prepared to back up your information with fact. These ficticous eco freaks who you cannot identify, or say where they come from or even what their agenda is, yet you have identified them as the "enemy" This is exactly what you are saying they do. I am sure they are just as passionate about their beliefs as you are about yours. Your responses here is a way of spreading fear and mistrust through unfounded rumor, yet in your post you spoke as if you were giving first hand knowledge of these eco freaks. This type of thing certainly does not help our image, if there is a battle to fight it must be done with knowledge and factual statements that can be defended. Do not get me wrong I am not attacking you for your stand on this and I do not wish to offend you in any way I am just saying when making a comment or quote that represents many people do so with all of us in mind, do not give people with agendas that will effect all of us more ammunition to hurt us and our way of life.

PS. macgregor you stirred it up this time!

[Fred]

OK then, just read everything and learn the best you can. You can't argue with that, or can you? Also when you get up into my age bracket you will better understand about memory problems and retained impressions. Oh yeah, you will have to do better than that to offend me! :biggrin: Fred

[abbyfireguy]

The anti-hunting folks are slanting their propoganda to suit their own agenda,which is, no more hunting period....
If the BC government were to end hunting in BC tomorrow you would see these folks dancing in the street with glee....
You think they behave above board,,THEY DO NOT !!!!
Misinformation is the anti-hunting people's best tool..They cherry pick info and edit it to suit their spin on certain issues...
I much prefer to hear the whole story and make up my own mind on issues...I seldom get too vexed when I read an article that has quotes and rewrites through-out it....My experience has shown to me that such articles have somewhat less than the whole picture presented...
As far as late season cow hunts go , I don't apply for them, but that's just me..I don't think they pose any problem in very small limited numbers...I am opposed to open cow/calf seasons as harvest numbers can not be controlled as well......
I know lots of hunters only apply for cow/calf draws,but, that's their decision,not mine..
The choice is up to each individual when applying for LEH oportunities......
Good luck to all,,,,I hope I get a draw this year ....

[moosecaller]

Fred!!! your age bracket look at my profile we come from the same era, don't make us older than we really are. Now you made me feel old and I did not think I was now that hurts! :) I still remember penny candy, black and white T.V. milk(glass bottle) delivery by horse, and so on. Keep the faith; waking up on this side of the dirt is a good thing.

[Fred]

:biggrin: I got 8 or so years on yah kid! :wink: I too remember those things and the horse drawn milk wagon that used to deliver our milk. I also remember the horse drawn garbage wagons. It is my short term memory that is going for a dump.
Since you have a real job(I peeked) you will probably not have a memory problem as you are always exercizing your brain trying to stay ahead of the people you are looking after. Fred

[PGKris]

OK this degraded a bit but here's what it boils down to (IMO):

Some guys will agree with the antlerless hunt and see it as a useful management tool and some guys will disagree and say that it is unethical to kill a pregnant cow or any antlerless animal whatsoever.
OK, these two types of hunters (and there is grey area here) will disagree and usually both parties will be stubborn fools like most hunters out there (myself included).
Where this issue becomes problematic is when the two groups begin attacking each other and dividing hunters as a whole. This is when we can begin the discussion on anti-hunters and how easy it is for them to beat us time and again. They win because we pick ourselves apart too much.
Kris

[Blktail]

Saltspring Island is a place where rich American Eco-idiots have moved to in droves. There are enough there now to affect local politics and the Islands Trust which looks after the Gulf Islands. That plus driving up real estate prices so the locals kids can never afford property there.

The Kalifornian attitude is permeating our society as well through the media. I don't want to become a place where you can't buy a pair of Kangaroo hide boots just because roo's are cute and bouncy. I bet it is also the first American state that will ban sports fishing because it is cruel. Britain will likely be first on that boat though.

Watch the back door!

[moosecaller]

Blktail; You are adding to the problem here and not offering a solution. Calling people "freaks" and "idiots" this is lowering yourself to a level that is very easy to discredit by any resonable person it removes any credibility you may have had. I do not believe bashing an american state, a country such as Britain, the real estate market, or insinuating a local government has been corrupted by out of country residents is solving anything. Your post is just beyond jibberish. Are there any facts or basis to the claims you have just made? You are sounding more paranoid than the american survivalist groups! There are many reasons for real estate to go up besides an influx of americans purchasing land,saltspring may be a destination retirement community which in itself can cause property value to rise. Can you quote any local politics that has been effected by these eco idiots? Newspaper articles or media reports? What reference can you show in our media where this kalifornian attitude is present? I don't understand the "roo" thing I did not realise it was a problem. Nor do I understand the fishing problem I did not hear that it was one, and the attack on the british, where do you get this information? If this is your own opinion or something that has come to you in a dream that is fine, but to spread this type of information and promote this type of bash literature is not a good thing. If it is an opinion say so if it is fact then you must be prepared to prove and defend your statements, otherwise you are opening yourself and everyone else here to ridicule from the very people you seem to be fearful of.
And to think all of this started from some fellow making a query about LEH antlerless hunting, now we have dragged in an entire american state of eco freaks/idiots coming in our backdoor, go fiquire.

[Blktail]

Moosecaller

I am referring to a very specific group of people that have moved to Saltspring Island. I have spoken with many of them. Randy Bachman of BTO is one of them. In fact, he had a concert in Crofton recently to advertise the nearby mill caused the air in his neighborhood to stink. I may not be articulate enough to get my point across clearly in the few words I have used here, but rest assured I know what I am talking about.

I should clarify what I mean by "Kalifornian". I got the term from another hunting forum. From what I can gather it refers to that group of people that protest everything they view as environmentaly or emotionally damaging (as they see it). They also object to the ownership of guns be ordinary citizens, fishing (to one extent or another), hunting and any other consumpive use of the environment, whether it is sustainable or not. They are also NIMBY's and subscribe to the belief that a developer is somebody that builds cabins in the woods, while an environmentalist is somebody that owns a cabin in the woods. They are not all from California or the US for that matter. Environmentalists from the LA entertainment industry are prime examples. So are the protesters in North Vancouver that object to the new highway to Whistler because it will affect property values (but insist they are protesting for the environment). Kalifornians believe most people don't know what's good for them. They believe in gun registries and gun bans. They are the radio talk show hosts like one in Victoria, that can't talk about hunters without going on about what brutal He-Men he thinks they are and that they hunt for blood lust or to compensate for their small wee-wee's. (I know I am ranting here.)
This attitude is growing daily, primarily due to the entertainment industry which hails from Caifornia to a great extent. Britain has it's own Kalifornians. They have been protesting sports fishing for years. There was a group doing the same thing in Michigan.

The whole point to my rant is to explain that I believe this attitude is getting stronger in BC as well. We will have fight it every way we can. By educating others, being responsible sportsmen, setting a good example and any other way we can think of. Perhaps ranting about Kalifornians is not being as responsible as I can be, but I am talking to a captive audience here. I did not mean to hurt your feelings.

With respect to the original question posed by MacGregor, the point to my posts has been that a hunter should be allowed to persue cow moose or calves or does without fear of being judged or criticized by his peers for doing what is legal.