Poor CI inspecting.

[willy442]

Here we go with another example of CO inspectors passing illegal animals through the system. The latest example is again a simple fact of lack of education on behalf of both hunter and inspector.

I've stepped forward and made this call from a position of experience and under the full realization that there are many others on here capable of reaching the same conclusion. What disappoints me is the fact I sit here and watch the numbers of views the thread has climb rapidly and the fact that learned sheep hunters hide in the bush and won't step forward.

I'm not saying there is any reason to hang the shooter of this Ram as valid mistakes are made and I believe this is one. However I do believe the issue should be dealt with in a proper manner and again that the brunt of the issue should now be in the hands of the CI who let it pass. The hunter made a mistake, the CI inspector should be much better educated if he/she is going to be trusted with the determining of legal or not.

Where do you people want to go with this. Had it been a guide harvest I'm sure the noose would already be hanging from the tree.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Dealing with the same issues down here right now....although none has resulted in a legality issue..............so far....... that I know of:confused:.

Have reported all the inconsistancies that I'm aware of.

SSS

[Jagermeister]

"Here we go with another example of CO inspectors passing illegal animals through the system. The latest example is again a simple fact of lack of education on behalf of both hunter and inspector."

Just what example are you referring to? You go on a rant but provide insufficient information about the topic.

[willyqbc]

Willy.......First off let me say I have no horse in this race as i am neither a sheep hunter, nor do I know you or the hunter of this ram. I have nothing more than the most rudimentary knowledge of how to age sheep. I am looking for some understanding of why you believe this animal is not legal.....telling me you have lots of experience doesn't help me at all to understand why you believe this animal to be under 8 years old. In the picture below I have highlighted the rings that I am assuming are the annuli. They all seem to be emmanating from a "dent" in the horn which I am assuming is indicative of a new years growth?? Please explain which of these you don't believe to be an actual annuli and why.....no disrespect intended to you or your abilities to judge sheep, just looking to understand this contraversy a little better.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/ramside_edited.JPG

Just curious
Chris

[bigwhiteys]

http://www.bchuntingblog.com/images/tlineram.jpg

Hope this helps you Chris...

Carl

[willy442]

Willy.......First off let me say I have no horse in this race as i am neither a sheep hunter, nor do I know you or the hunter of this ram. I have nothing more than the most rudimentary knowledge of how to age sheep. I am looking for some understanding of why you believe this animal is not legal.....telling me you have lots of experience doesn't help me at all to understand why you believe this animal to be under 8 years old. In the picture below I have highlighted the rings that I am assuming are the annuli. They all seem to be emmanating from a "dent" in the horn which I am assuming is indicative of a new years growth?? Please explain which of these you don't believe to be an actual annuli and why.....no disrespect intended to you or your abilities to judge sheep, just looking to understand this contraversy a little better.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/ramside_edited.JPG

Just curious
Chris

Where you have your numbers 1 and 2 there are no annuli. Aging from the base out the first annuli is your number three. Maybe Carl can post the frontal view of the ram to this thread and you will then be able to see it clearly.

[willy442]

"Here we go with another example of CO inspectors passing illegal animals through the system. The latest example is again a simple fact of lack of education on behalf of both hunter and inspector."

Just what example are you referring to? You go on a rant but provide insufficient information about the topic.

The info is all out there on the 2 rams thread if you care to look.

[willyqbc]

Thanks BW....much slicker editing than mine!! :mrgreen:

so what is it about the lines I have labelled 1 & 2 that make you believe they are not annuli? I can clearly see a couple lines that are not accompanied by a dent on the ridge....between your 4&5 and 6&7. But it seems there is a clear indentation at the very least on the one I have labelled 2. Are those indentations not indicative of an annuli? or are they irrelevant....if so how the heck to do you tell what exactly is an actual annuli? I guess the question boils down to...what visual components must be there to class a ring as an annuli????

Chris

[bigwhiteys]

Are those indentations not indicative of an annuli? or are they irrelevant....if so how the heck to do you tell what exactly is an actual annuli? I guess the question boils down to...what visual components must be there to class a ring as an annuli????

No indentations are not in themselves indicative of an annuli, especially at the bases where the horns are usually rougher anyways, and do get knicked, gouged from fighting, rubbing in rocks etc...

A true annuli will go 360 degrees around the horn... But moreso than that if you follow the annuli and take notice of the size of the "pies" in between the annuli... As the ram ages these gradually get smaller, you can see from year 4 (my drawing) to year 7 he had a consistent rate of decline, taking that rate of decline into account, from 7 to base it would not follow his current growth pattern if there were 2 more annuli present. Not only that, the dark growth you've listed as 1 and 2 is in fact his growth from this year to his death.

The growth pattern is a big one, because if you follow it from birth (lamb tips) back to the base, you understand where an annuli should fall (should one be hard to see) or helps you spot any irregularities such as health issues, injuries etc that the ram may have experienced.

Sharp changes in a growth pattern would indicate something affected his growth in that year.

Carl

[willyqbc]

Thanks BW!! Good explanation but still seems like pretty tricky business to pull off correctly and seems to allow some subjective judgement from the inspecting officer doesn't it?? As far as i understand it they can get very accurate aging using the teeth?? If so, why not remove all doubt and have the inspection include using a tooth to get the actual age?

Chris

[bigwhiteys]

Thanks BW!! Good explanation but still seems like pretty tricky business to pull off correctly and seems to allow some subjective judgement from the inspecting officer doesn't it?? As far as i understand it they can get very accurate aging using the teeth?? If so, why not remove all doubt and have the inspection include using a tooth to get the actual age?

I think with sheep annuli have been more effective in judging the age. It's definitely tricky business when you're dealing with a ram that isn't full curl to begin with.

Carl

[willy442]

I think with sheep annuli have been more effective in judging the age. It's definitely tricky business when you're dealing with a ram that isn't full curl to begin with.

Carl

The first year out from the base on that ram is best observed from the frontal close up of the horn. This will also hold true when viewing young rams from the field and should be one of the things a hunter looks at when a ram is questionable, because it is a dead give away on the young. Old rams cannot be viewed and judged in the same manner due to the false annuli and roughness of horn as a ram matures.

Please post the frontal picture on here for reference Carl

[willy442]

Where are the Bridgers, B.C. Rams, Dead Dog and the advocates of less restriction. Why have these accomplished sheep hunters not volunteered any input or views on this thread? Guess we may have to wait until a G/O brings in an illegal specimen for thier input.

[1/2 slam]

I've done about 15 trips and have taken 2 rams. Both 11 plus years. BUT I'm no expert. I have tried and tried and I can't make 8 out of it.

[bridger]

aging sheep is an inexact science at best and any given ram can be given different ages by different CI inspectors. I saw a ram in one of the taxidermist shops the other day that was definately not a full curl and only seven yrs old. the ci inspector passed it on horn curl. definately the wrong call. in the case of rams like the one being discussed it is a judgement call in the field, but one that requires considerable expertise to pull off and one that inexperienced sheep hunters would be wise to let walk. I have an old ram that was CI'd at 12 1/2 and agreed to by several experienced sheep hunters as the rings are very definate. However, one of my friends insists it is only 10 1/2. just goes to show aging rams is not easy.

[BCrams]

Where are the Bridgers, B.C. Rams, Dead Dog and the advocates of less restriction. Why have these accomplished sheep hunters not volunteered any input or views on this thread? Guess we may have to wait until a G/O brings in an illegal specimen for thier input.


Unlike most .... I've been busy "hunting" :-D Some of us get good at doing what we do by hunting and observing all the time.

I am just getting into several pages of backlogged threads I havn't even looked at.

This latest ram isn't only one I am seeing Willy. I have been getting other rams via personal email of rams you boys havn't seen that CI's are wrongly aging ... including a ram that the CI put 2 years above its actual age on a 6 yr old. I'm still giving my input on the aging regarding the CI's. Just not necessarily on here.

There are several CI's who need to be removed from their position due to their inefficiency of aging sheep. A few are being passed off 1 or 2 yrs older than they really are.

Next time we get a ram, we oughta take them to questionable CI's so I can rake em over the coals for wrongful aging.

Deaddog is also away hunting for another week or two.

[bridger]

as far as the ci inspection service goes I think we all agree it is in shambles and in need of an over haul. Seems to me that having taxidermists doing the ci's can create a real conflict of interest that may be more perception that reality, but an conflict nonetheless

[Bluedsteel]

Willy.......First off let me say I have no horse in this race as i am neither a sheep hunter, nor do I know you or the hunter of this ram. I have nothing more than the most rudimentary knowledge of how to age sheep. I am looking for some understanding of why you believe this animal is not legal.....telling me you have lots of experience doesn't help me at all to understand why you believe this animal to be under 8 years old. In the picture below I have highlighted the rings that I am assuming are the annuli. They all seem to be emmanating from a "dent" in the horn which I am assuming is indicative of a new years growth?? Please explain which of these you don't believe to be an actual annuli and why.....no disrespect intended to you or your abilities to judge sheep, just looking to understand this contraversy a little better.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/ramside_edited.JPG

Just curious
Chris


Sure looks legal to me! There is always a chance that a ram can develop false annuli but an experienced sheep hunter can most times tell the difference. I have also seen some rams make it through that shouldnt have but this doesn't seem to be one of them. It is also difficult to see if the annuli near his lamb tip is still there or rubbed off. Check the regs, just my 2 cents. http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/regulations/1012/docs/Hunting-TrappingSynopsis_1012.pdf

[bridger]

Where are the Bridgers, B.C. Rams, Dead Dog and the advocates of less restriction. Why have these accomplished sheep hunters not volunteered any input or views on this thread? Guess we may have to wait until a G/O brings in an illegal specimen for thier input.


I don't think it is my place or yours to tell the hunter that shot this ram that it is illegal as according to the ministry of environment it is, and in the end that is all that matters. As a matter of education i have already stated that the harvesting of this ram or similiar rams is a real judgement call and should only be taken by guys with enough experience to make the call. this is not a ram for a newbie. That in my mind is the real issue here and I think it would be more productive to tell guys that the first ring at the base is probably a false ring, as there doesn't appear to be enough growth and when mistakes are made in counting rings they are always made at the base not at the lamb tip. In my view that would be more productive than to claim the ram is illegal. would I have shot that ram? No, but I am not criticizing the hunter who did. Again I am on record as saying the CI system is broken, not just for sheep but in general. Having said that however, I don't think we are faced with an epidemic of illegal rams being passed as legal. As far as waiting for a guide to bring in an short underage ram, that doesn't happen very often either and the pure truth of the matter is that mistakes are made on both sides of the equation. Always have been; always will be.

[Timbow]

Just curious on this particular ram. Does anyone know it's a full curl or a 3/4 curl?

Thanks,
Tim

[bighornbob]

as far as the ci inspection service goes I think we all agree it is in shambles and in need of an over haul. Seems to me that having taxidermists doing the ci's can create a real conflict of interest that may be more perception that reality, but an conflict nonetheless


In Region 3 the CI's are done by the bios at the main office. They found they were losing that face to face interaction with the hunters i.e. how many animals seen, up or down from previous years etc. They also figured hunters were more likely to tell them the actual location of the kill then to some guy that does the CI as a part time job.

BHB

[moose2]

as far as the ci inspection service goes I think we all agree it is in shambles and in need of an over haul. Seems to me that having taxidermists doing the ci's can create a real conflict of interest that may be more perception that reality, but an conflict nonetheless

I could be wrong but I am a little uneasy about putting an arrow on a map at a taxidermist shop to show where a ram was taken. Especially if its a good trophy. It felt a bit more sucure leaving this info at the MOE office.
MIKE

[moose2]

This is for Willy442

I am not at the point in my sheep hunting career to feel comfortable on going on age. I need to see the horn break the nose, but by doing this I risk shooting what you call a dink ram at 6 or 7 years old. I am already feeling that if I post anything other than an 11 year old 42 inch ram I will be criticized by yourself. I don't think we have the right on this site to call some ones animals illegal based on a picture. I think comments like these will just make people reluctent to post their pictures. Meaning we will all miss out on some nice photos , and loose what we all love about this site.
MIKE

[kootenayslam]

This is for Willy442

I am not at the point in my sheep hunting career to feel comfortable on going on age. I need to see the horn break the nose, but by doing this I risk shooting what you call a dink ram at 6 or 7 years old. I am already feeling that if I post anything other than an 11 year old 42 inch ram I will be criticized by yourself. I don't think we have the right on this site to call some ones animals illegal based on a picture. I think comments like these will just make people reluctent to post their pictures. Meaning we will all miss out on some nice photos , and loose what we all love about this site.
MIKE

X2...Well said.

[KodiakHntr]

This is for Willy442

I don't think we have the right on this site to call some ones animals illegal based on a picture.

MIKE

Realistically speaking though, that picture is going to be a hell of a lot clearer and easier to assess legality than a ram moving his head around feeding, or not giving you quite the angle you need to see if he breaks the bridge.

If a person can't judge legality based on a SET of pictures, then NO ONE should be shooting a ram unless he's clearly broomed off at a 6" circumference within an inch of his nose, or at least 4" past the bridge with lamb tips.

Just sayin'......

[Stone Sheep Steve]

In Region 3 the CI's are done by the bios at the main office. They found they were losing that face to face interaction with the hunters i.e. how many animals seen, up or down from previous years etc. They also figured hunters were more likely to tell them the actual location of the kill then to some guy that does the CI as a part time job.

BHB


I think that would be in everyone's best interest. I'm sure MOE cutbacks were the driving force to move it into the private sector.

SSS

[srupp]

Well said Kodiachntr...it is amazingly difficult for me to field judge sheep and I certainly wouldnt be comfortable using annuli...Hell last August(2009) I had the opportunity to spend 3 complete hours glassing my ram..in amongst a group of 11..with Swaro Hd spotting scope cranked..

I "thought" he had 9 but for the life of me wouldnt pull the trigger on that..If I thought he had 9 maybe he had 7??:confused:not certain..

Willy makes some exellent points...and us that have far far far less experience than Willy or Rams or Deaddog, Stonechaser or etc etc etc should heed this exellent advice..looking how difficult it is even on a well lit still close up photo...Thanks Willy sage advice..I hopefully will be able to heed it next week..:wink: movement, not the perfect angle, fog, distance excitment all aid in making mistakes on a thin pencil line often at considerable distances...

All 3 of my rams have been harvested on length not age...

cheers
Steven

[skibum]

If you don't have 25 years sheep hunting stay off the mountain! - you don't have the same experience that I have to judge what I think is the correct animal to take. Maybe I should accompany any sheep hunter without 25 years experience to tell them what animal to take


pompous bullsh!t is what a lot of this thread is

[moose2]

Realistically speaking though, that picture is going to be a hell of a lot clearer and easier to assess legality than a ram moving his head around feeding, or not giving you quite the angle you need to see if he breaks the bridge.

If a person can't judge legality based on a SET of pictures, then NO ONE should be shooting a ram unless he's clearly broomed off at a 6" circumference within an inch of his nose, or at least 4" past the bridge with lamb tips.

Just sayin'......

I do agree what you are saying. I just don't think calling peoples animals out on this site makes it very inviting to post pictures on. The hunter felt it was legal by age and C/I put a plug in it. That should be enough.
MIKE

[KodiakHntr]

Question Steven, that ram you shot last year, you "thought" he had 9, what did he get aged at?

I know I personally let 2 different rams walk last week, that were so incredibly close to being over the bridge that it simply wasn't funny....And one of them was eyeballed for 4 or so hours over two days at 300 yards with the Swaro set on 60, and the other was at under 100 yards.

No way that I could justify shooting either one based on annuli.....And believe me, I tried.......grin

[KodiakHntr]

I do agree what you are saying. I just don't think calling peoples animals out on this site makes it very inviting to post pictures on. The hunter felt it was legal by age and C/I put a plug in it. That should be enough.
MIKE

Fair enough, I suppose.

Bear in mind, ram pictures posted here have resulted in confiscations though that were originally CI'd as legal......Take it for what it's worth.

I have a whack of pics from the last two trips I've taken this year, and the only person who saw even one picture was Carl because I asked his opinion on one of the rams I saw. Which reinforced the good feeling I had about letting that one walk.....(And no, I'm not going to post any of them.....)

[Piperdown]

This is for Willy442

I am not at the point in my sheep hunting career to feel comfortable on going on age. I need to see the horn break the nose, but by doing this I risk shooting what you call a dink ram at 6 or 7 years old. I am already feeling that if I post anything other than an 11 year old 42 inch ram I will be criticized by yourself. I don't think we have the right on this site to call some ones animals illegal based on a picture. I think comments like these will just make people reluctent to post their pictures. Meaning we will all miss out on some nice photos , and loose what we all love about this site.
MIKE

X2 on this point!

[Elkhound]

And this is why I have not put in for sheep. I just dont have the knowledge needed to make sure the ram is legal. It scares the hell out of me to make that mistake. Not to mention the fall out on HBC if an admin did something illegal even if a mistake. Some members just wait to see others fall and rejoice in it.:(

[luckynuts]

I could be wrong but I am a little uneasy about putting an arrow on a map at a taxidermist shop to show where a ram was taken. Especially if its a good trophy. It felt a bit more sucure leaving this info at the MOE office.
MIKE


Me too. That's why I got a call from a CO asking me where I had shot my boo as I picked a different water source that put me out of my area:eek: But when you have 5 unknown hunters in the taxi shop all drooling over the map it gets a little stressful. You pay a bunch of hard earned money and put in a lot of time researching and hunting an area you just don't want to give it up to the local coffee drinker:wink:

W.

[Coming_out_heavy.]

The lady CI in Fort Nelson has her map with dots all over it where the sheep and bears have been shot. She doesnt exactly make you want to be honest about where you shot it.




I could be wrong but I am a little uneasy about putting an arrow on a map at a taxidermist shop to show where a ram was taken. Especially if its a good trophy. It felt a bit more sucure leaving this info at the MOE office.
MIKE

[Jagermeister]

The info is all out there on the 2 rams thread if you care to look.
Perhaps in the future you could post a link instead of leaving it up to supposition.

[paw325]

A few hunters on this thread and the Stone thread are attempting to justify killing non trophy game.

Who really needs to kill a ram? Just because you worked hard and climbed a hill or two doesn't mean you deserve a trophy. Sheep are hunted as trophy animals and are managed as such with horn, age and seasonal restrictions. If the horns don't break the bridge of the nose and you are unsure of your ability to age it based on annuli, don't kill it.

I've looked at the pics and cannot praise the hunters. I do not feel that the animals are trophy quality, based on maturity and size.

If we continue to praise every guy who kills a ram, bear, goat or other species managed as trophies, that doesn't meet the requirements or follow the intent of the restrictions, we are going to undermine the intent of the management practices in place. As we are the end users, it is our perogative to manage within and call a spade a spade.

[willy442]

Unlike most .... I've been busy "hunting" :-D Some of us get good at doing what we do by hunting and observing all the time.

I am just getting into several pages of backlogged threads I havn't even looked at.

This latest ram isn't only one I am seeing Willy. I have been getting other rams via personal email of rams you boys havn't seen that CI's are wrongly aging ... including a ram that the CI put 2 years above its actual age on a 6 yr old. I'm still giving my input on the aging regarding the CI's. Just not necessarily on here.

There are several CI's who need to be removed from their position due to their inefficiency of aging sheep. A few are being passed off 1 or 2 yrs older than they really are.

Next time we get a ram, we oughta take them to questionable CI's so I can rake em over the coals for wrongful aging.

Deaddog is also away hunting for another week or two.

What's your position on these Rams? Are you refering these Sheep to the MOE for reinspection or is it your intent to let them slide through? Why are you against posting them for the purpose of education for those who are willing to learn and actually have an interest in doing it right?

[willy442]

This is for Willy442

I am not at the point in my sheep hunting career to feel comfortable on going on age. I need to see the horn break the nose, but by doing this I risk shooting what you call a dink ram at 6 or 7 years old. I am already feeling that if I post anything other than an 11 year old 42 inch ram I will be criticized by yourself. I don't think we have the right on this site to call some ones animals illegal based on a picture. I think comments like these will just make people reluctent to post their pictures. Meaning we will all miss out on some nice photos , and loose what we all love about this site.
MIKE

Mike: I feel for the hunter that makes a mistake. The issue with aging sheep is one that can create alot of different interpitations at times. However this is more likely to happen as Rams increase in age. One of the points I have always tried to pass on in this site is the fact that there is no real difficulty in aging these young rams. Reguardless of picture posting we do have regulations that are to be followed, as I've stated in the other post. Our sheep are partially managed by the info that is gathered through the CI inspections. We also have a horn plugging program that is out there to insure we harvest legal sheep and they are recorded. Please tell me what is the value of these programs if the data gathered is garbage. I would much rather take my own photo's and see some education for sheep hunters on this site.
Bill

[willy442]

If you don't have 25 years sheep hunting stay off the mountain! - you don't have the same experience that I have to judge what I think is the correct animal to take. Maybe I should accompany any sheep hunter without 25 years experience to tell them what animal to take


pompous bullsh!t is what a lot of this thread is

Lets look at your statements from another angle.

I have in fact over twenty five years of wet feet, tired legs and sore eyeballs from hunting sheep. The knowledge I have, I worked my ass off for and am willing to share it even with pompous asses like yourself for free. Just think you can stay warm and dry in front of your T.V. eating Kraft Dinner, while you learn about sheep hunting. No too bad a deal compared to the way I learned now is it? :)

[fuzzybiscuit]

I love Kraft dinner...Wheat weevils and cheese is my favourite!:mrgreen:

[willy442]

And this is why I have not put in for sheep. I just dont have the knowledge needed to make sure the ram is legal. It scares the hell out of me to make that mistake. Not to mention the fall out on HBC if an admin did something illegal even if a mistake. Some members just wait to see others fall and rejoice in it.:(

Elkhound; There is no rejoice in looking at illegal and Dink rams laying in the dirt with a bullet hole through them. One that is put there only because the hunter failed to put forth the effort to learn nor had the self discipline to let it walk away.

[willy442]

I love Kraft dinner...Wheat weevils and cheese is my favourite!:mrgreen:

Me too. Better than Mountain House:-D

[r106]

A few hunters on this thread and the Stone thread are attempting to justify killing non trophy game.

Who really needs to kill a ram? Just because you worked hard and climbed a hill or two doesn't mean you deserve a trophy. Sheep are hunted as trophy animals and are managed as such with horn, age and seasonal restrictions. If the horns don't break the bridge of the nose and you are unsure of your ability to age it based on annuli, don't kill it.

I've looked at the pics and cannot praise the hunters. I do not feel that the animals are trophy quality, based on maturity and size.

If we continue to praise every guy who kills a ram, bear, goat or other species managed as trophies, that doesn't meet the requirements or follow the intent of the restrictions, we are going to undermine the intent of the management practices in place. As we are the end users, it is our perogative to manage within and call a spade a spade.

and who the hell are you to say what someone else trophy is or isn't?
I'm NO expert but I counted 8 years. The CI called it eight years.
Get a life and go hunting
________
Toyota, aichi (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota,_Aichi)

[Bluedsteel]

and who the hell are you to say what someone else trophy is or isn't?
I'm NO expert but I counted 8 years.

Just have to have a look at the other post "stone rams x2" and you'll see new photo from a different angle of the horn which clearly shows that it is legal.

[r106]

Yep I think some people need to give an appology

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=749471#post749471

and willy and a few others should get a life
________
Michigan Dispensaries (http://michigan.dispensaries.org/)

[willy442]

Yep I think some people need to give an appology

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=749471#post749471

and willy and a few others should get a life

The ring you think seals the deal is clearly explained on the other thread guy's. Have a look

[northernhunter]

Young sheep are alot easier to judge if they are thin(no mass) the rings are pretty obvious. If you are looking at this and he is close, and you're not sure even maybe 7 or 8 let him walk it is a no brainer. The time i sometimes have trouble is on the older heavy broomed rams that have tight annuli by there horns, these are usually heavy broomed with age. Bottom line is if you are in doubt at all don't shoot. After spending some time in the mountains you will get better at aging, some rams are even hard to age for people that have hunted them for a long time.

[newhunterette]

I have a question: Now I can honestly say I am completely out to lunch when it comes to sheep

who are the CI's - who chooses them?

I am just curious as I said, I know nothing on the subject but reading and retaining good information is always good for conversations. I know I will never go sheep hunting in my life (just not written in my hunting cards).

What is the process/protocol you have to go through after the RAM is down and in your posession?

:)

[paw325]

and who the hell are you to say what someone else trophy is or isn't?
I'm NO expert but I counted 8 years. The CI called it eight years.
Get a life and go hunting

I believe the hunting regulations are very clear on what is a trophy or isn't.

As too who I am, I'm a hunter who is very intrerested in properly managing one of the only GOS for sheep that are not available in any other country in the world. If we, as hunters, do not self regulate we will not have these opportunities.

If I'm wrong and the sheep is 8yrs, well someone has hurt feelings. In pointing out possible errors and mistakes, perhaps some new or less experienced hunters will take the time to learn how to properly age or even turn down a borderline ram.

If you are one of the guys that is whining about not posting pics on here because of the potential of receiving critical comments about your kills, I say you should quietly enjoy your kills with your hunting partners and family like we did before the internet.

[bridger]

Lets look at your statements from another angle.

I have in fact over twenty five years of wet feet, tired legs and sore eyeballs from hunting sheep. The knowledge I have, I worked my ass off for and am willing to share it even with pompous asses like yourself for free. Just think you can stay warm and dry in front of your T.V. eating Kraft Dinner, while you learn about sheep hunting. No too bad a deal compared to the way I learned now is it? :)

wet feet, tired legs, sore eyeballs? You forgot the supercub!

[bridger]

The lady CI in Fort Nelson has her map with dots all over it where the sheep and bears have been shot. She doesnt exactly make you want to be honest about where you shot it.


that is one of the things that needs to be addressed with the moe concerning the compulsory inspection system. hopefully the bcwf can get this turned around before next hunting season.

[willy442]

wet feet, tired legs, sore eyeballs? You forgot the supercub!

F%^$% off Rich; Our outfit was 100% fair chase and you know it.

[willy442]

that is one of the things that needs to be addressed with the moe concerning the compulsory inspection system. hopefully the bcwf can get this turned around before next hunting season.

Ok for the guides to mark them though. You gobbled up that info over the years even though it wasn't supposed to be released.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Willy- If you were a CI...what would you age this Rocky at???

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Sheep_aging_012.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=20489&limit=recent)

SSS

[betteroffishing]

i get 6 years, no pro though.

[bridger]

Ok for the guides to mark them though. You gobbled up that info over the years even though it wasn't supposed to be released.


the locations of guide or resident kills were never given to the allocation committee. Over the years I developed several ways of finding out where guides take most of their sheep. one is by doing a lot of sheep hunting (which i have done) and finding their sheep camps. the other is to buy assistant guides a few beers in the off season.(which i have done) I have also had outfitters tell me where to find rams in another outfitters area so i wouldn't hunt theirs. another way is to subscribe to the grandslam club and fnaws and read their hunt reports or now check out websites. lots of ways to find out where the rams are.

[srupp]

always scenarios that make you shake your head and go hmmmmm

took in my big cali for CI and the biologist wanted a cali for his wife..so untill I put an x on a map..EXACTLY..they threatened to withhold passing this sheep in the CI..I gave them the exact location of my camp..next year biologist and his wife were camped in "my" camp where I had placed the x...:confused:........

steven

[budismyhorse]

Well fellas, this (IMO) is exactly what needs to happen on this site. Stir some people up and reinforce the understanding that harvesting rams on age is extremely difficult. Period. There will always be guys taking a risk and whacking an 8 yr old......but hopefully, a few rookie hunters will stay out of trouble.

I've noticed that every year, a new batch of members come on and haven't been a part of the older threads regarding this....and nanny killing. So these threads may be annoying to some, but there are a few out there that are reading this and maybe, just maybe might learn something from it and approach harvesting these prized animals with a bit more conservation in mind. Necessary evil I believe.

That being said. I'll post this pic of a stone ram that was AGED exactly to the standard being set by Carl and Willy. The black ring near the base WAS not given and this ram was CI'd as 9. Even though I could clearly see a "ring" near the hairline. That being said, if a few of these rams being posted on this site were brought to this man, there would be a few more rams at auction.

I aged him 10 in the bush.......the CI process scared me straight so to speak....
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/IMGP0985.JPGhttp://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/IMGP0980.JPG

[mark]

always scenarios that make you shake your head and go hmmmmm

took in my big cali for CI and the biologist wanted a cali for his wife..so untill I put an x on a map..EXACTLY..they threatened to withhold passing this sheep in the CI..I gave them the exact location of my camp..next year biologist and his wife were camped in "my" camp where I had placed the x...:confused:........

steven

Simple answer, put the X exactly in a spot you have no intention of ever hunting again!

Who's to ever know the difff????

And really what does it matter???

[bridger]

in reality the moe just needs to know the management unit the animal was taken in. asking hunters to put an x on the exact kill site is unfair. confidentiality has always been a concern of the bcwf but even though we have asked for a change our pleas have fallen on deaf ears. now that private citizens are doing the inspections the concern is perceived to be even greater.

[mark]

Well fellas, this (IMO) is exactly what needs to happen on this site. Stir some people up and reinforce the understanding that harvesting rams on age is extremely difficult. Period. There will always be guys taking a risk and whacking an 8 yr old......but hopefully, a few rookie hunters will stay out of trouble.

I've noticed that every year, a new batch of members come on and haven't been a part of the older threads regarding this....and nanny killing. So these threads may be annoying to some, but there are a few out there that are reading this and maybe, just maybe might learn something from it and approach harvesting these prized animals with a bit more conservation in mind. Necessary evil I believe.

That being said. I'll post this pic of a stone ram that was AGED exactly to the standard being set by Carl and Willy. The black ring near the base WAS not given and this ram was CI'd as 9. Even though I could clearly see a "ring" near the hairline. That being said, if a few of these rams being posted on this site were brought to this man, there would be a few more rams at auction.

I aged him 10 in the bush.......the CI process scared me straight so to speak....
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/IMGP0985.JPGhttp://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/IMGP0980.JPG


I would also get 10 on that ram! I suspect the CI isnt counting the first annuli that would be right near the tip where its broomed a bit????

2 years ago at the WSS convention, during the horn aging contest, I stirred thing up by asking why I got this particular rams age wrong???
I was pretty confident I had it right and wanted to know WTF???

Long story short I had a couple BIO's, stone guides with 25 years exp. CI's with over 25 years exp. (5 or 6 experts) all arguing over the sheeps age, with horns in hand! They were looking at each other across the table like "you dont know what the heck yer doing"

[willy442]

the locations of guide or resident kills were never given to the allocation committee. Over the years I developed several ways of finding out where guides take most of their sheep. one is by doing a lot of sheep hunting (which i have done) and finding their sheep camps. the other is to buy assistant guides a few beers in the off season.(which i have done) I have also had outfitters tell me where to find rams in another outfitters area so i wouldn't hunt theirs. another way is to subscribe to the grandslam club and fnaws and read their hunt reports or now check out websites. lots of ways to find out where the rams are.

What are you say befriending the ministry staff didn't get you help and inside information in the early years of inspections?:)

[willy442]

I would also get 10 on that ram! I suspect the CI isnt counting the first annuli that would be right near the tip where its broomed a bit????

2 years ago at the WSS convention, during the horn aging contest, I stirred thing up by asking why I got this particular rams age wrong???
I was pretty confident I had it right and wanted to know WTF???

Long story short I had a couple BIO's, stone guides with 25 years exp. CI's with over 25 years exp. (5 or 6 experts) all arguing over the sheeps age, with horns in hand! They were looking at each other across the table like "you dont know what the heck yer doing"

I would get that ram as 10 from the photo. The point I would like to make on this is as a Ram gets older the aging process becomes more difficult. When a ram is 6 or 7 the process is much easier and even the novice should be able to be accurate most of the time. The problem as I see it is we have hunters looking at these borderline Rams and making the wrong call due to missing some of the simple indications of the horn in general.

Indicative of young rams is the smooth front surface of the horn like in the close up photos of Tlinemans. If you look at that Ram and then go look at the 8 year old ram posted as a comparison by Carl you will find that generally speaking an eight year olds horn in that area is very different. Also in the 8th year horn mass starts to increase faster than length generally, so this is another good indicator that can be used with the full curl and age process to determine what it is you are looking at. Education is the answer to making the right decision for those who want it. Yes knowledgeable people may not always agree and your ram is one that points to some discrepancy for sure, but still offers some valuable information.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Willy- If you were a CI...what would you age this Rocky at???

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Sheep_aging_012.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=20489&limit=recent)

SSS


Willy-So what would you age this Rocky at???

SSS

[bridger]

What are you say befriending the ministry staff didn't get you help and inside information in the early years of inspections?:)

absolutely the only info ever given out was the number of rams both res and non res taken within a guide area and the ages of the rams taken. we were never shown or told where the rams were taken either by residents or non residents. all members of the committee respected that confidentiality. info on areas we hunted years ago came as i said from assistant guides, other sheep hunters, and just stumbling around. in fact one of the guides that used to work for your father placed x's on everyone of your dad's sheep camps for me in about 1976 or 77 a map i still have by the way.

[willy442]

Willy-So what would you age this Rocky at???

SSS

No photo; Hard to age a blank screen.

[Coming_out_heavy.]

I think hes 9. If he was broomed the same on both sides, I wonder how many guys would let him walk due to not being a full curl?.....

Nice looking ram though!


Well fellas, this (IMO) is exactly what needs to happen on this site. Stir some people up and reinforce the understanding that harvesting rams on age is extremely difficult. Period. There will always be guys taking a risk and whacking an 8 yr old......but hopefully, a few rookie hunters will stay out of trouble.

I've noticed that every year, a new batch of members come on and haven't been a part of the older threads regarding this....and nanny killing. So these threads may be annoying to some, but there are a few out there that are reading this and maybe, just maybe might learn something from it and approach harvesting these prized animals with a bit more conservation in mind. Necessary evil I believe.

That being said. I'll post this pic of a stone ram that was AGED exactly to the standard being set by Carl and Willy. The black ring near the base WAS not given and this ram was CI'd as 9. Even though I could clearly see a "ring" near the hairline. That being said, if a few of these rams being posted on this site were brought to this man, there would be a few more rams at auction.

I aged him 10 in the bush.......the CI process scared me straight so to speak....
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/IMGP0985.JPGhttp://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/IMGP0980.JPG

[mark]

When a ram is borderline on age, or deemed an illegal ram by a CI, but the hunter and others are confident its 8......why the heck wouldnt ya just send a tooth to the aging lab in the states pay $20.

Would sure go a long ways in a court dispute, probably get tossed and get yer ram back real quick with that info!

[daywalker]

Not disrespecting anyone, however an aging of a ram cannot be done accurate through a computer screen.

[The Hermit]

Okay fellas I have read all the threads on this topic now and I think what would help everyone would to have side by side pictures of a no-brainer legal 9, 10, or 11 year old BIG ram and a questionable 8 year old broomed ram.

BTW thanks for all the good info, confusing as it all is, its a good start.

I do have a question though about using aircraft to scout and then 24 hours later heading up on foot/horseback to hunt for them... is that legal or just a question of questionable fair chase ethics?

[Coming_out_heavy.]

Fill your boots. Its standard practice for GOs, and alot of residents are flying around before heading up as well.

I dont do it, but only cuz I tried scouting a mountain one June day and ended up puking for 1 hour solid in a shopping bag that had a hole in it. Voice activated mic too. I looked down once at the mountain I flew out to see and then told the pilot to get me the fack out of there.

I get nautious when I look at a supercub.

[David Heitsman]

When a ram is borderline on age, or deemed an illegal ram by a CI, but the hunter and others are confident its 8......why the heck wouldnt ya just send a tooth to the aging lab in the states pay $20.

Would sure go a long ways in a court dispute, probably get tossed and get yer ram back real quick with that info!

I'm not sure that sheep tooth ageing has the same degree of accuracy as deer ageing. Sheep are aged based on tooth wear so they would actually need to see the whole jaw and this would only indicate an approximate
age. On the last two of my rams I took macro photos of the jaws and sent them to the biologists along with the CI ageing sheet. This was more for the biologist's information as there are some concerns re; changing and deteriorating dentition conditions and patterns in Stone's sheep. Poor dentition in some areas may explain the lack of eight year old rams in underhunted areas.

Deer teeth are "annulied" (my word) by bisecting them and counting the veneers. Something similar to tree rings. That is why you need only send in one tooth. Deer are also aged into categories by the appearance and disapearance of certain teeth at different stages of the animal's life.

I was game checked in WA a couple years ago with a 4 pt in the Zodiac.
The warden asked if he could age the deer and I said no problem. Then he explained that their method was too look at the jaw and that would require cutting the lips back at the corner of the mouth. I gave permission as I didn't need the cape.

Sorry, I guess I've just gone a bit off topic.



Deer

[paw325]

A few hunters on this thread and the Stone thread are attempting to justify killing non trophy game.

Who really needs to kill a ram? Just because you worked hard and climbed a hill or two doesn't mean you deserve a trophy. Sheep are hunted as trophy animals and are managed as such with horn, age and seasonal restrictions. If the horns don't break the bridge of the nose and you are unsure of your ability to age it based on annuli, don't kill it.

I've looked at the pics and cannot praise the hunters. I do not feel that the animals are trophy quality, based on maturity and size.

If we continue to praise every guy who kills a ram, bear, goat or other species managed as trophies, that doesn't meet the requirements or follow the intent of the restrictions, we are going to undermine the intent of the management practices in place. As we are the end users, it is our perogative to manage within and call a spade a spade.

After realizing that Tlineman and I are from the same town I took the opportunity to send him a PM and ask if he had the time and willingness to hook up with me in order to review his ram.

Whan actually looking at the horns it is apparent that in the sheeps deteriorating condition, due to its inability to chew, the ram only grew a very small bit of horn this year and last. The portion of horn above the last annuli remained dark and appeared as new growth, however it is definately annuli. This ram is, in my opinion, 8 years old and legal.

I appologise to Tlineman and his hunting partner, I was foolish and voiced an opinion that was unsolicited and ultimatley wrong.

Tlineman is a gracious person and deals with adversity as a man should.

Peter Walker

[jhausner]

This is why I don't hunt sheep. :|

[BCrams]

Whan actually looking at the horns it is apparent that in the sheeps deteriorating condition, due to its inability to chew, the ram only grew a very small bit of horn this year and last. The portion of horn above the last annuli remained dark and appeared as new growth, however it is definately annuli. This ram is, in my opinion, 8 years old and legal.



I had received a PM from a member on here regarding my opinion based on the photo whom had put the ram down at 7.

My reply back was 'based' on the photo it looked like a 7 yr old ram.

However, I also said I reserved judgement until I had the rams in my hands personally because I have seen sheep with poor growth and this ram potentially had that poor growth to result in a short growth year.

Appears my thoughts may have been right on based on your viewing the ram.

Then again, I still would love to see it personally!