Nanny Goats, Sow Grizzlies and Dink Rams.

[willy442]

A few days ago a simple question was asked on another thread (why shoot a Nanny) it started a total shite show over the taking of a legal animal. Many were congratulating the trigger puller for a great trophy and how he was so successful, how he could do better and shoot a male next time, how those questioning the shot were out of line etc.

Lets pose the same question again now that we have a thread started about issues with the taking of Nannies in region 3 and inspection in Kamloops. To most it is very clear the taking of nannies even though legal is not wise utilization of our goat herds, much the same as taking Sow Grizzlies and Dink Rams. It seems the idea of we are residents and it is legal so our trigger happy fingers are allowed to shoot it and its OK with everything takes the front seat. Then add in the fact we can post it on a forum like this and all the peope not able to tell the difference between a Billy and Nanny or legal and illegal Rams will congratulate us on great trophies and successful hunts.

People if it's OK or not according to the MOE, we must at some point stop and look at what the results of our decissions and resulting actions are doing for hunting in the future. If we all practice the crap I see on here of it's my first or I'll be more selective next time we will not need to concern ourselves with getting more hunters out in the field. Everyone who hunts and thinks in this manner is doing nothing for our future but only concerned with thier own greed and success at this time. Is it not better to go out and enjoy a hunting trip and doing something for wild life enhancement by passing on an animal, instead of going home with regrets of shooting a goat out of a large herd of Nannies and probably a few kids mixed in.

My simple question last week was determined to be insulting by one of our GOLDEN BOY MODS on here and this one will most likely be the same but maybe a few will read it before that happens and next year we may look at one less Dink Ram and on less Nanny on here.
Happy Hunting
Bill

[Gord]

Willy 442, your comments are why a lot of average people don't get into hunting or any other activity. They just don't want to figure out the rules of hunting and then have to contend with another set of rules from somebody else, ie: they don't want to fight. This is also why a lot of people don't post their kill photos here. I remember when I used to race motocross, there was always a group that was all talk and would intimidate other riders, then there was the group that just shut up and rode to their abilities and were very encouraging to others. If the synopsis says I can take a certain animal deemed legal by our BIOLOGISTS, then I'm not going to be bullied by your kind of talk. I've read a few of your posts and you seem to be a pretty nice guy and try to present your point as nice as you can, but I didn't enjoy that kind of talk when I raced motocross and it bothers me to hear it now. Its been about five years hunting now for me and I haven't posted any pictures of what I've gotten, but while I'm out hunting I don't second guess anything I'm doing during my legal hunt. I hope I've come across properly and no real offense to you. Gord.

[Coming_out_heavy.]

Willy does have a point. We are allowed to shoot some animals that we shouldnt be shooting. We as hunters can help our own cause by ensuring we take the animals that are intended to be taken.

Not everyone can walk away from a legal animal, especially after a long climb. We have to be willing to do this, sometimes.

[dutchie]

We as hunters can help our own cause by ensuring we take the animals that are intended to be taken.

I defiantly agree that Willy has a point, and a very good one at that...

We can also help each other out by not attacking each other when one posts something that is not up to their standard.

I am not going to say it is right or wrong, nor am I going to condemn or congratulate... but I Certainly will not attack another hunter for their decisions on taking a legal animal. It rips the hunting sub culture apart due to ones own personal beliefs... IE shooting a fawn on an LEH antlerless draw.

There is a complex that alot of hardcore hunters have and that is one that they are better, they know better, and they would never make a mistake...

I do agree that Nannies and Sows are sensitive to harvest... dink rams on the other hand is not the same ball of wax IMHO. It is a legal ram or it is not...they should change thr laws to say at least 1" over the bridge or 9+ years old. But then again, there would be a new "dink ram" category.

Anti-hunters are far more respectful of their own group then hunters are... Maybe there is ONE thing we could learn from them?

Dutchie

[MattB]

The only reason why the shooting of nannies is legal is because people have difficulty determining between the sexes. Why else would hunters be asked to select billys over nannies rather than just have the regulations switched to billys only. Things have to change or a lot of the areas in southern BC are going to be closed to all goat hunting.

[Caribou_lou]

Not everyone can walk away from a legal animal, especially after a long climb. We have to be willing to do this, sometimes.

Not everyone will after waiting years for an LEH. In my opinion LEH will give some the false thought that this might be their last chance. So they take the first legal animal that they have a chance at.
With all the pressure to close the bear hunt and with no GOS opportunities for Grizzly. Many hunters will take the first legal grizzly they see.

Just my opinion.

[steel_ram]

We live in a "want it now", "me" society and I think that attitude spills into the community.

There's a fine line between what is right and what is legal, or more so what loop hole you can use to utilize the way a rule is written.

In the instance of goats and bears, it is way too easy to make a mistake. I think the law is set-up to take these easily made, non-intentional "mistakes", into account. Strong "suggestions" with these laws make it clear that MOE doesn't want us killing females. Also we don't need a bunch of abandoned dead female animals left by those afraid of persecution.

Then there's those that very well know that the current regs. are almost impossible to prosecute. Unless someones actually witnessing, who's to know there wasn't lambs or cubs present? These "hunters" are not an asset to our hunting community.

[willy442]

Willy 442, your comments are why a lot of average people don't get into hunting or any other activity. They just don't want to figure out the rules of hunting and then have to contend with another set of rules from somebody else, ie: they don't want to fight. This is also why a lot of people don't post their kill photos here. I remember when I used to race motocross, there was always a group that was all talk and would intimidate other riders, then there was the group that just shut up and rode to their abilities and were very encouraging to others. If the synopsis says I can take a certain animal deemed legal by our BIOLOGISTS, then I'm not going to be bullied by your kind of talk. I've read a few of your posts and you seem to be a pretty nice guy and try to present your point as nice as you can, but I didn't enjoy that kind of talk when I raced motocross and it bothers me to hear it now. Its been about five years hunting now for me and I haven't posted any pictures of what I've gotten, but while I'm out hunting I don't second guess anything I'm doing during my legal hunt. I hope I've come across properly and no real offense to you. Gord.

No offence. The answer is education, education, education before hunting these animals. For the most part they are only deemed legal because of the hunters inability to qualify the prey. For your information in European countries you must not only know sex to hunt but must also be able to determine size and age. Our system is pretty relaxed. To respond to your statement on why others do not hunt being related to my post. If we have more hunters in the field that are incapable of determining the sex of goats for instance. Do we really want them out there? What's wrong with better education and demonstrating through such that you have studied goat hunting and can in fact make an educated judgement on sex? I'm not trying to discourage hunting. I'm only trying to get those who hunt to think about what they are doing.

[Gateholio]

I understand how taking sow grizllies and nannies (females) can be a poor choice, in some areas, however I don't have enough sheep knowledge to understand why shooting a "dink" (although legal) ram (male) also is a poor choice which could result in lowering sheep populations. Explain, please?

[Devilbear]

I completely agree with what Willy is saying here and I have passed on legal rams, after a brutal two day climb in very hot weather because they were barely legal. I came out from that four day solo trek into a Chilcotin area mountain range with blisters on both feet that were larger than quarters and my shoulders rubbed raw from the pack straps chafing the sweat-softened skin.....I have fabulous memories of that and other such hunts and NO "trophy kill" as in " I gotta kill one to be a real hunter" would ever make them better.

Education and self-discipline will be what saves hunting in BC and, I have walked away from a huge bull elk, up in Willy's region, because I was not positive I could kill it from where I had stalked to...and, in those days, I was shooting three times a week and could hold five .338WM-250s in 4" freehand consistently....I still think I did the right thing and I have never killed an elk that big.....that's what HUNTING is all about.

Sometimes, we need to step back and think about how the public sees us, as, like it or not, call them names such as "greenie leaflickers" or not and make all the "macho" comments we want, it WILL BE the general public of BC, who finally determines what hunting will survive, if any, in our province...and, boys, "the times, they ARE a'changin'"

Good post, Willy, from your equally ornery and even older geezer!

[ufishifish2]

We can also help each other out by not attacking each other when one posts something that is not up to their standard.


Great point Dutchie. I posted a pic a couple weeks ago of a Billy I harvested that in my own opinion was a "dink". I expected to have a few "dinks" on here rip me a new one for my tiny goat. I was surprised that every single person on here who responded was positive and completely supportive. I am sure many chose not to write anything at all, which is fine too. I just wanted to say "Thanks guys." I am not quite so scared to put up my stories now.:-D

[dutchie]

I understand how taking sow grizllies and nannies (females) can be a poor choice, in some areas, however I don't have enough sheep knowledge to understand why shooting a "dink" (although legal) ram (male) also is a poor choice which could result in lowering sheep populations. Explain, please?

From what I understand it is not a sensitivity to harvest, it is more about depleting the breeding stock of the up an coming sheep gene pool.

If the just legal "dink rams" keep getting shot then there is 2 sheep dieing every year instead of that one cranker ram. (The old BIG rams will die every year, the 8 year olds most likely will not) that cranker does not contribute to the gene pool any more so why take the sheep that is breeding the most Ewes?

That 7 year old full curl will have superior genetics to the 9 year old "dink ram" and in turn give better genetics to the pool.

Alot of sheep hunters determine trophy by 2 things, age and score... a 40", 12.5 year old that scores 180 with a is a better trophy then a 40" 8 year old that scores 180. and yet they both get the same score and you are removing the "spent" ram from the Gene pool.

Dutchie

[willy442]

I understand how taking sow grizllies and nannies (females) can be a poor choice, in some areas, however I don't have enough sheep knowledge to understand why shooting a "dink" (although legal) ram (male) also is a poor choice which could result in lowering sheep populations. Explain, please?

Gates we've been through this a hundred times and I'm not going there again. My point is we've got a double standard in the eight year or full curl rule and we fail to put the effort into the education of the hunter. Sheep are legal to hunt, we set standards to hunt them by, than make provisions for those that may make an error, rather than educate and try to prevent the errors. To me this is wrong. It may be acceptable now but what is it going to accomplish down the road? Is educating and promoting responsible decission making, prior to pulling the trigger wrong?

[Gateholio]

Gates we've been through this a hundred times and I'm not going there again. My point is we've got a double standard in the eight year or full curl rule and we fail to put the effort into the education of the hunter. Sheep are legal to hunt, we set standards to hunt them by, than make provisions for those that may make an error, rather than educate and try to prevent the errors. To me this is wrong. It may be acceptable now but what is it going to accomplish down the road? Is educating and promoting responsible decission making, prior to pulling the trigger wrong?

Willy, I'm not trying to get into a debate here, I'm looking for knowledge. I have had 5 sheep tags in my life, one was my well publicized lack of marksmanship, one was me walking away because other hunters were on the ram first, one I never got the opportunity to hunt, one was this year were I saw no legal rams, and one was me glassing 3 rams for over an hour at shooting distance without having the confidence to pull the trigger...So my sheep knowledge is not vast...

Hunters killing young male deer will never reduce a deer population. Only killing females will do that. Will hunters killing young male sheep reduce a sheep population? That's the question, and it's not a rhetorical question, it's asked because I don't have the sheep knowledge you do.

I (and many others) already (mostly) agree with you on the sow and nanny issue, this is a good opportunity to convince us on your "dink" sheep issue.

[northernhunter]

I agree with willy. I hunt sheep every year living in the north here, and pass on several rams every year. Unless it is bigger than the one on my wall i pass on him, and most importantly make sure he is old. I see alot of 6 and 7 year old rams getting killed every year and that is hurting the quality of us getting some real crankers, for the future. I don't blame the first time sheep hunter taking the first legal one he sees, but we have to watch out we don't take to many young ones or we will be back to one in three again. I don't want to see this, i like my time sheep hunting every year,successfull or not.

[willy442]

Willy, I'm not trying to get into a debate here, I'm looking for knowledge. I have had 5 sheep tags in my life, one was my well publicized lack of marksmanship, one was me walking away because other hunters were on the ram first, one I never got the opportunity to hunt, one was this year were I saw no legal rams, and one was me glassing 3 rams for over an hour at shooting distance without having the confidence to pull the trigger...So my sheep knowledge is not vast...

Hunters killing young male deer will never reduce a deer population. Only killing females will do that. Will hunters killing young male sheep reduce a sheep population? That's the question, and it's not a rhetorical question, it's asked because I don't have the sheep knowledge you do.

I (and many others) already (mostly) agree with you on the sow and nanny issue, this is a good opportunity to convince us on your "dink" sheep issue.

Gates this is soley from own observations during the time I was active every year sheep hunting.
Rams will come back into the same country year after year. They do this by the old teaching the young, not unlike our own system. If we continually shoot the young six and seven year old Rams, we are depleteing the middle generation of education amongst them. The reason for this is, after the rut the actively breeding rams are weak and run down heading into a long winter, mortality among them is high. The old rams very often do not breed but instead spend time chasing the breeding rams away both adding to the stress on thier condition and preventing ewes from being bred. Many of these old rams will die off due to natural causes and what have we left. I suggest we now have a group of rams at a juvenille age that are not yet ready to lead a herd into the high peaks for summer.
Also if we continue taking the best 6 and 7 year olds out of the geine pool we are depleting the quality of our breeding stock. I know many on here believe we do not hurt our sheep by harvesting these animals and to a point I would agree this to be the case if a few were taken. However at present I believe we are taking too many and very often they are all coming out of the same area, which even hurts more.

[BCHunterFSJ]

The "sheep sheriff" certainly raises some good ethical points. Nevertheless, I believe that there is nothing wrong with a hunter taking a legal "dink", a nice nanny (I have...), or a sow grizz with no cubs if it is their first trophy of that kind. To them it IS a trophy!!!Subsequent kills, however, are a different story. Like northernhunter says, unless it is bigger than the one already on your wall, you should pass it up.
But let's stop critisizing the first time hunters who successfully (and happily) take a nice animal!

[GoatGuy]

If you're gonna start a thread on this you might as well star with sustainability first....... (ie science) then deal with your conception of ethics and morals.

[willy442]

The "sheep sheriff" certainly raises some good ethical points. Nevertheless, I believe that there is nothing wrong with a hunter taking a legal "dink", a nice nanny (I have...), or a sow grizz with no cubs if it is their first trophy of that kind. To them it IS a trophy!!!Subsequent kills, however, are a different story. Like northernhunter says, unless it is bigger than the one already on your wall, you should pass it up.
But let's stop critisizing the first time hunters who successfully (and happily) take a nice animal!

You have totally missed the meat in my post. It is the way you are thinking in your post that prevents the idea of improvement to surface in hunting ethics for those that are new or inexperianced. Why does there have to be a kill? Can we not just enjoy the time spent in the wilderness and celebrate a kill when we find an animal that is no longer contributing to the individual species longivity. I think it would be much better and would over time develop a hunter with strong ethics and conservation would actually become first and foremost, rather than just an idea that crosses ones mind from time to time. Not judging or critisizing anyone but would you not be prouder of bringing home a Billy after an educated decission, than packing out a nanny while thinking " Damn, I thought it was a Billy" before I pulled the trigger?

[willy442]

If you're gonna start a thread on this you might as well star with sustainability first....... (ie science) then deal with your conception of ethics and morals.

I'll leave the number fixing and politics to you. I'm only speaking of ethics and selective hunting. I agree it may not be something you like or support but if we don't clean up our act, your stats will not even make good toilet paper.

[Devilbear]

Actually, if anyone chooses to listen to what Val Geist, David Schindler and several other renowned and VERY experienced professional wildlife biologists have been teaching those interested for many years, Willy is correct in his analysis of the situation.

Having read Val's works on Bighorns and Stone's Sheep and having spent some time discussing this with him on a visit he made to Nelson, years ago, as well as having studied a little biology, I find Willy's comments both perceptive and factual...and, while he is among the most ornery guys here, perhaps exceeded only by me, he has the BUSH TIME and that is kinda important.....

If, where populations of organisms, such as Stone's Sheep, are concerned, there is an additional "limiting factor" in terms of numerous hunter induced mortality of breeding mature rams, added to the non-human limiting factors of that particular habitat, there WILL BE a major decrease in numbers and vitality of said populations. This, is pretty basic wildlife bio-science.

I think that Willy is right and we should govern ourselves, accordingly. JM2bitsworth.

[GoatGuy]

I'll leave the number fixing and politics to you. I'm only speaking of ethics and selective hunting. I agree it may not be something you like or support but if we don't clean up our act, your stats will not even make good toilet paper.

Science first Willy. Sustainable wildlife managmenet generally includes the harvest of females and harvest across age classes although it certainly isn't hard and fast. You seem to be under the impression that shooting the biggest and sometimes older is the 'way to go'.


Generally speaking you're wrong which makes your post garbage because you aren't dealing with science, you're simply bringing up some foregone conclusion that shoot the biggest and male only is the only and the best way - to be very frank that is simply wrong.

You can have your diarhrea on the Internet and beat up on people who don't know better but when it come to science and sustainable wildlife managment I'll stick to the advice of researchers for input on harvest strategies.

[dutchie]

People smash trophy hunters because they do not understand the reality of a TURE trophy hunter. (this is not the Rich Yankee that just wants to have each animal in North America to complete their Slam)

A true trophy hunter helps the population grow by removing old, non-contributing genetics so the younger rams/boars/billies can step up to the plate and produce the next set of genetics, a adapted set of genes for the next 5-6 years.

Selecting the Oldest and most mature male specimen of any species will contribute to a larger count or the species. Deer are so plentiful in most areas there is the ability to have a "any buck" season rather then a 4 point or better.

Selective harvest is the way to make a stronger heard... talk to any biologist... I personally think that some Sheep hunters can be supreme dickheads but they also have the understanding and have the ability to walk away from that Legal 8 year old ram in order to hold out for the older trophy and help the heard out... rather then getting the first Ram legal ram they see.

With that being said I have the utmost respect for the true trophy hunters because of their undying desire to help the populations in BC and connect with the hawgs of the bush.

Dutchie

[GoatGuy]

What is the harvest rate, sex and age for goats, grizzly and sheep across the province by mu and residency group for the last 30 years?

What does science tell us is the 'best' harvest strategies for these species and how do they compare to the trend?

That is data one should and has to know before making presumptuous conclusions.

I'm sure you'll agree.

Actually, if anyone chooses to listen to what Val Geist, David Schindler and several other renowned and VERY experienced professional wildlife biologists have been teaching those interested for many years, Willy is correct in his analysis of the situation.

Having read Val's works on Bighorns and Stone's Sheep and having spent some time discussing this with him on a visit he made to Nelson, years ago, as well as having studied a little biology, I find Willy's comments both perceptive and factual...and, while he is among the most ornery guys here, perhaps exceeded only by me, he has the BUSH TIME and that is kinda important.....

If, where populations of organisms, such as Stone's Sheep, are concerned, there is an additional "limiting factor" in terms of numerous hunter induced mortality of breeding mature rams, added to the non-human limiting factors of that particular habitat, there WILL BE a major decrease in numbers and vitality of said populations. This, is pretty basic wildlife bio-science.

I think that Willy is right and we should govern ourselves, accordingly. JM2bitsworth.

[GoatGuy]

That isn't necessarily what research tells us. Fitness is not always correlated to horn size. Differet survival strategies for different species.

Your mention of 'the ability' to have any buck seasons versus 4 pt demonstrates a common flaw in the thought process. In an any buck season you actually end up with a more genetically diverse population as well as a better age structure in he population. In terms of 'genetics' generally speaking the 4 PTs season is the worst if were looming for 'big antler' potential.

People smash trophy hunters because they do not understand the reality of a TURE trophy hunter. (this is not the Rich Yankee that just wants to have each animal in North America to complete their Slam)

A true trophy hunter helps the population grow by removing old, non-contributing genetics so the younger rams/boars/billies can step up to the plate and produce the next set of genetics, a adapted set of genes for the next 5-6 years.

Selecting the Oldest and most mature male specimen of any species will contribute to a larger count or the species. Deer are so plentiful in most areas there is the ability to have a "any buck" season rather then a 4 point or better.

Selective harvest is the way to make a stronger heard... talk to any biologist... I personally think that some Sheep hunters can be supreme dickheads but they also have the understanding and have the ability to walk away from that Legal 8 year old ram in order to hold out for the older trophy and help the heard out... rather then getting the first Ram legal ram they see.

With that being said I have the utmost respect for the true trophy hunters because of their undying desire to help the populations in BC and connect with the hawgs of the bush.

Dutchie

[dutchie]

Science first Willy. Sustainable wildlife managmenet generally includes the harvest of females and harvest across age classes although it certainly isn't hard and fast. You seem to be under the impression that shooting the biggest and sometimes older is the 'way to go'.

Generally speaking you're wrong which makes your post garbage because you aren't dealing with science, you're simply bringing up some foregone conclusion that shoot the biggest and male only is the only and the best way - to be very frank that is simply wrong.

You can have your diarhrea on the Internet and beat up on people who don't know better but when it come to science and sustainable wildlife managment I'll stick to the advice of researchers for input on harvest strategies.

I have to disagree 100%.

I have been to 3 different hunting conventions were there have been biologists from all around the world doing presentations on sustanible harvest and selective harvest. All 4 different biologists have recommended the same thing for Sheep and goats... Selective harvest for old males.

Keep in mind that Willy442 is more concerned about Sheep and Goats because his life has revolved around that for the last 50+ years. What you are suggesting with shooting the females is a great example of how you are thinking about the deer and their sub species... there is no sow LEH, Nanny LEH because it is not sustainable to condone shooting them.

With deer/moose/elk... yes you need to thin the does/Cows to keep the herd competitive and strong, but taking a ewe or lamb/Nanny in region 7/3/5 would be the dumbest Idea I have ever heard of (other then the 2 Ewes in Region 3-29??? LEH)

Willy442 is talking from science.. and he is talking sheep/goats.Grizz... I am pretty sure that you are talking the deer family... that is the only way what you are saying could make sense.

Dutchie

[mod7rem]

We seem to be talking about two different things. I agree that we should avoid shooting nannies and sow grizzly because of how it affects the population of those animals. Its hard to control but we are asked to do it in the regs. The "dink ram" debate is a different topic to me. The regs clearly define what a legal ram is. To me when it comes to sheep the argument seems to be more about getting rams that score higher for record books and not about population concerns.

[Devilbear]

If, you think that my ...conclusions... are ...presumptuous..., all I can say is that I did not make any conclusions, I merely commented on what certain biologists have stated and, my feelings concerning both education and self-discipline with respect to hunting.

I stress here, that I am not making specific comments as to the parameters of a given management regime as I do not have all of the data that you mention, however, I did not interpret Willy's posts in quite that way. but, more as a general comment on how we hunters should conduct ourselves in terms of what/when we kill an animal.

I am a firm adherent to scientific management of all environmental situations, given that we can do so under the social constraints that apply to each. However, I learned to listen to those with extensive field experience as well as highly qualified academics as a student over forty years ago and still tend to do this.

I would prefer to see a "perfect harmony" between the scientists and the weather-beaten field people, but, I do not consider either or myself infallible and try to understand each to the extent of my limited abilities.

Scientists, often make major errors in wildlife-fisheries management as I witnessed in the Kootenays, the lake being a major example. So, listening to a "hands-on" commentary is worthwhile as well, IMHO.

[Little Red Man]

Well fcuk...here I go.....I KNOW I am going to get FLAMED for this, but I just can't help myself....plus I have had a few beers, and that usually opens my big yap, sometimes beyond redemption.

I have seen this GD argument TIME and AGAIN on many hunting forums. And although I have a great respect for Val, from what I have read about him, I am not thoroughly informed enough about his theories of wildlife management to comment on some of the statements made in the is thread.

REGARDLESS, if taking an animal is LEGAL, then take away! IMHO. Not all of us can be the SUPER HUNTERS that some of you are! And as such, again IMHO, if any game is taken legally, then so be it!

As an example (and I DO know this does not necessarily relate to sow grizzly, dink rams, or nannies) I recall a BUNCH of hunters RAILING against some individuals who took primarily does. They alluded to the fact that taking of does will kill off an entire deer herd. Well, maybe....and maybe NOT! Who am I as an average hunter to say one way or the other?

So, I will say it again...if it legal, have at 'er......and if ANY of you fellows (or gals) THINK that it is wrong......then DO SOMEHTING ABOUT IT!

I am pretty certain that the managers of our game are OPEN to discussions from "armchair biologists". And IF you care enough, you WILL affect change. And IF you affect change, then I will be the first to support it, and continue to hunt in any LEGAL fashion that is mandated to me!!!

Sorry for the rant...I am done.....

FLAME AWAY!!

[dutchie]

That isn't necessarily what research tells us. Fitness is not always correlated to horn size. Differet survival strategies for different species.

Your mention of 'the ability' to have any buck seasons versus 4 pt demonstrates a common flaw in the thought process. In an any buck season you actually end up with a more genetically diverse population as well as a better age structure in he population. In terms of 'genetics' generally speaking the 4 PTs season is the worst if were looming for 'big antler' potential.

Also... what is the thought process behind a 4 point only season? is it not to reduce the number of animals being shot and to generate more room for the up and coming deer?

What about the white tail any buck... why would there is a any buck season if it makes the White tails grow stronger... and then implementing a doe season... to make the population grow again? Is it a conspiracy that the MOE wants to wipe out the Mulie population?

I thought the any whitetail was to thin the population so it would let the mulies back into their native areas...

Not meaning to be a dick, I am rather perplexed with the science that I have been taught/explained and the formula that you have presented.

Dutchie

[dutchie]

Well fcuk...here I go.....I KNOW I am going to get FLAMED for this, but I just can't help myself....plus I have had a few beers, and that usually opens my big yap, sometimes beyond redemption.

I have seen this GD argument TIME and AGAIN on many hunting forums. And although I have a great respect for Val, from what I have read about him, I am not thoroughly informed enough about his theories of wildlife management to comment on some of the statements made in the is thread.

REGARDLESS, if taking an animal is LEGAL, then take away! IMHO. Not all of us can be the SUPER HUNTERS that some of you are! And as such, again IMHO, if any game is taken legally, then so be it!

As an example (and I DO know this does not necessarily relate to sow grizzly, dink rams, or nannies) I recall a BUNCH of hunters RAILING against some individuals who took primarily does. They alluded to the fact that taking of does will kill off an entire deer herd. Well, maybe....and maybe NOT! Who am I as an average hunter to say one way or the other?

So, I will say it again...if it legal, have at 'er......and if ANY of you fellows (or gals) THINK that it is wrong......then DO SOMEHTING ABOUT IT!

I am pretty certain that the managers of our game are OPEN to discussions from "armchair biologists". And IF you care enough, you WILL affect change. And IF you affect change, then I will be the first to support it, and continue to hunt in any LEGAL fashion that is mandated to me!!!

Sorry for the rant...I am done.....

FLAME AWAY!!

If you think that you are going to get flamed then so be it.

That is your hunting style, then stick to your guns. Who are we to judge you.

Nanny's and Sows are not going to be a first choice for many hunters and if you respect the regs then they spacificalyy ask that you do not shoot them, and even though it is legal, it is encouraged to take the males for a reason.

Mistakes happen and so be it. BUT if you are intentionally going out to shoot a nanny or sow then that is a shame. It will only cost all the hunters in BC in the long run.

Dutchie

[GoatGuy]

some intensive Science is showing us the best way to mimick natural mortality is actually through harvest of young goats (2 <). You must have missed the researchers at the biennale goat and sheep convention. There a big difference between hunting related conventions and research related conventions.

Stone sheep is 8+ as is Rockies and yes we've run into density dependance issues several times with Rockies resulting in huge dieoffs that could have been prevented or mitigated by ewe harvest.

30% sow harvest on grizzlies is entirely sustainable and will not create population declines. What that means is in theory the population will increase or at least will not decrease due to hunting related mortality. Long story short shooting a sow is not a big deal.

Willy can speak to experience but id rather trust the guys and gals who have spent 40 years in the bush following animals around for a living On the ground and In the air with gps and radio collars strapped to sheep, goats and grizzly bears. folks that have trapped and collared hundreds of these animals. Should probably mention these are some of the same folks I hunt with and deal with on pretty much a daily basis.



I have to disagree 100%.

I have been to 3 different hunting conventions were there have been biologists from all around the world doing presentations on sustanible harvest and selective harvest. All 4 different biologists have recommended the same thing for Sheep and goats... Selective harvest for old males.

Keep in mind that Willy442 is more concerned about Sheep and Goats because his life has revolved around that for the last 50+ years. What you are suggesting with shooting the females is a great example of how you are thinking about the deer and their sub species... there is no sow LEH, Nanny LEH because it is not sustainable to condone shooting them.

With deer/moose/elk... yes you need to thin the does/Cows to keep the herd competitive and strong, but taking a ewe or lamb/Nanny in region 7/3/5 would be the dumbest Idea I have ever heard of (other then the 2 Ewes in Region 3-29??? LEH)

Willy442 is talking from science.. and he is talking sheep/goats.Grizz... I am pretty sure that you are talking the deer family... that is the only way what you are saying could make sense.

Dutchie

[GoatGuy]

The 4 pt season is entirely social, it literally has nothing to do with conservation. That should answer the rest of your questions for the most part.


The wt is another thread something for when I'm not thumb typing on an iPhone and have to go hunting the next day.:wink:

try googling hugh Robinson and apparent competition in sympatric deer populations - should give you a good start.


Also... what is the thought process behind a 4 point only season? is it not to reduce the number of animals being shot and to generate more room for the up and coming deer?

What about the white tail any buck... why would there is a any buck season if it makes the White tails grow stronger... and then implementing a doe season... to make the population grow again? Is it a conspiracy that the MOE wants to wipe out the Mulie population?

I thought the any whitetail was to thin the population so it would let the mulies back into their native areas...

Not meaning to be a dick, I am rather perplexed with the science that I have been taught/explained and the formula that you have presented.

Dutchie

[dutchie]

some intensive Science is showing us the best way to mimick natural mortality is actually through harvest of young goats (2 <). You must have missed the researchers at the biennale goat and sheep convention. There a big difference between hunting related conventions and research related conventions.


You are right I did miss that one regretably, I would have loved to go but finances have kept me back from each and every one... there are all different kinds of conventions... I missed the GOABC, PETA and Suzuki conventions too... I am sure there would be clashing info on all of them. There are PHD, biologists and keynote speakers at all of them.



Dutchie

[GoatGuy]

We deal with real problems when it comes to wildlife management not chastising other hunters. That's what this thread is. It serves no educational purpose and will not help hunters make better decisions Or want to make better decisions - all it will do is sour them and stop them from posting their stories.


Willy forgot to mention they killed nannies, sows and under 8s when he was guiding/outfitting. He jusified a 6 yr old because it was a 'book ram' the absolute worst ram to harvest if were going to be 'mr conservation.'

Like I said, science first, there's plenty of manure out there. Show me the problem and the data and we'll deal with it.

If, you think that my ...conclusions... are ...presumptuous..., all I can say is that I did not make any conclusions, I merely commented on what certain biologists have stated and, my feelings concerning both education and self-discipline with respect to hunting.

I stress here, that I am not making specific comments as to the parameters of a given management regime as I do not have all of the data that you mention, however, I did not interpret Willy's posts in quite that way. but, more as a general comment on how we hunters should conduct ourselves in terms of what/when we kill an animal.

I am a firm adherent to scientific management of all environmental situations, given that we can do so under the social constraints that apply to each. However, I learned to listen to those with extensive field experience as well as highly qualified academics as a student over forty years ago and still tend to do this.

I would prefer to see a "perfect harmony" between the scientists and the weather-beaten field people, but, I do not consider either or myself infallible and try to understand each to the extent of my limited abilities.

Scientists, often make major errors in wildlife-fisheries management as I witnessed in the Kootenays, the lake being a major example. So, listening to a "hands-on" commentary is worthwhile as well, IMHO.

[GoatGuy]

You are right I did miss that one regretably, I would have loved to go but finances have kept me back from each and every one... there are all different kinds of conventions... I missed the GOABC, PETA and Suzuki conventions too... I am sure there would be clashing info on all of them. There are PHD, biologists and keynote speakers at all of them.



Dutchie

usually they pick what fits and when you get a guy talking about how great it is to be a trophy hunter without giving any kind of scientific basis to their rational for harvesting only old males argument you might as well close your ears, buy the Vancouver sun or head to the sewer treatment plant cause it's all the same shit.

Keynote speakers are selected for a reason and it generally ain't science.

[bigwhiteys]

I think it's easier for one to justify killing a dink ram or a nanny goat etc... when they can come up with a story about how tough a hunt it was, or how they earned it, multiple trips etc... blah blah blah...

Every single mountain hunt I've ever been on was tough and was hard work, but I don't let that be my excuse to drop anything because it's legal. If that were the case I'd already have a little immature grizz and more than 1 little dink ram on the wall and I could say... "Well... they are trophies to me... Because it was such a tough hunt blah, blah, blah"... Ha! yeah right... Whatever makes you feel better, I guess.

As individuals we are either helping or hindering the game in BC with the decisions we choose to make in the field. Let it walk or shoot it...???

I have great respect for a hunter that can study his quarry and make the personal decision to pass. To me, it shows respect, discipline and dedication to the species you are pursuing.

Carl

[Little Red Man]

"If you think that you are going to get flamed then so be it.

That is your hunting style, then stick to your guns. Who are we to judge you.

Nanny's and Sows are not going to be a first choice for many hunters and if you respect the regs then they spacificalyy ask that you do not shoot them, and even though it is legal, it is encouraged to take the males for a reason.

Mistakes happen and so be it. BUT if you are intentionally going out to shoot a nanny or sow then that is a shame. It will only cost all the hunters in BC in the long run.

Dutchie"

Sorry...had a rant on there.

Don't get me wrong...I agree with your point about intentionally going after the wrong gender being wrong....if the regs specifically request that I, as a hunter, make every effort to kill a specific gender of an animal, then I personally (and I hope all hunters as well) will do everything to educate myself and do my best to selectively take that gender.

The problem I have, is the constant berating of individuals who take legal animals, by holier than thou hunters.

For example, one hunter that has hunted goats for 20 years may be able to pick out a billy vs. nanny as if it were second nature.

However, a nube (such as myself) fails to identify the gender properly, and shoots a nanny LEGALLY, then gets completely degraded by that 20 year veteran, I cannot abide by.

[GoatGuy]

are we talking about sustainability or 'trophy' hunting? Trophies are in the eye of the beholder.

How old was the immature grizzly? How much did it weight? How could you tell?


I think it's easier for one to justify killing a dink ram or a nanny goat etc... when they can come up with a story about how tough a hunt it was, or how they earned it, multiple trips etc... blah blah blah...

Every single mountain hunt I've ever been on was tough and was hard work, but I don't let that be my excuse to drop anything because it's legal. If that were the case I'd already have a little immature grizz and more than 1 little dink ram on the wall and I could say... "Well... they are trophies to me... Because it was such a tough hunt blah, blah, blah"... Ha! yeah right... Whatever makes you feel better, I guess.

As individuals we are either helping or hindering the game in BC with the decisions we choose to make in the field. Let it walk or shoot it...???

I have great respect for a hunter that can study his quarry and make the personal decision to pass. To me, it shows respect, discipline and dedication to the species you are pursuing.

Carl

[Jagermeister]

This will probably be the only time that I will agree with Willy442.
The way I see is that there is a propensity for some to show some kind of prowess as a hunter and pop whatever comes into range.
Knocking off nannies is not something to crow about, it just shows that you either don't know how to tell the difference, cannot find the billies or both of the aforementioned.
Wildlife agencies go to great length to educate hunters about the difference. Keep knocking the nannies off and you will find that it will be an offence to take a nanny or goats will be totally closed.

[willy442]

Science first Willy. Sustainable wildlife managmenet generally includes the harvest of females and harvest across age classes although it certainly isn't hard and fast. You seem to be under the impression that shooting the biggest and sometimes older is the 'way to go'.


Generally speaking you're wrong which makes your post garbage because you aren't dealing with science, you're simply bringing up some foregone conclusion that shoot the biggest and male only is the only and the best way - to be very frank that is simply wrong.

You can have your diarhrea on the Internet and beat up on people who don't know better but when it come to science and sustainable wildlife managment I'll stick to the advice of researchers for input on harvest strategies.

Sorry for upsetting your little world of science and a decreasing wildlife populations when we speak of Sheep and Goats. Due to political pressure and LEH bears are in fact increasing so we won't include them.

The meat in my posting was entirely about educating hunters on what they were shooting and making educated decissions before pulling the trigger. Yes mistakes are made and will continue to be, how ever with education they can be reduced. If you want to try and move this to a scientific mumbo jumbo like the rest of those involved politically go ahead but you are away off the intent of the thread.

[willy442]

We deal with real problems when it comes to wildlife management not chastising other hunters. That's what this thread is. It serves no educational purpose and will not help hunters make better decisions Or want to make better decisions - all it will do is sour them and stop them from posting their stories.


Willy forgot to mention they killed nannies, sows and under 8s when he was guiding/outfitting. He jusified a 6 yr old because it was a 'book ram' the absolute worst ram to harvest if were going to be 'mr conservation.'

Like I said, science first, there's plenty of manure out there. Show me the problem and the data and we'll deal with it.

Here we go with your same old bull shit. I have stated on here many times that I made a mistake taking that Ram. However under the same CIRCUMSTANCES as that day I would probably do it again.

As for killing Nannies and Sows in our old guide area. Seldom were mistakes made and when they were we penilized our guides for them by impossing fines. We also rewarded them for taking of Boars and Billies. Really I guess we were managing wildlife before you were a twinkle in daddies eye.

Like I stated a few posts back. This thread is about educating the hunter when it comes to Sheep, Goats and Grizzlies. It was not meant to have anything to do with your statistics and political garbage.

[willy442]

usually they pick what fits and when you get a guy talking about how great it is to be a trophy hunter without giving any kind of scientific basis to their rational for harvesting only old males argument you might as well close your ears, buy the Vancouver sun or head to the sewer treatment plant cause it's all the same shit.

Keynote speakers are selected for a reason and it generally ain't science.

Thought I've seen your name a couple of times as a speaker. It is Jesse Zieman is it not?:)

[bridger]

if you want to see some dink rams join the grandslam club and get their excellent magazine and take a look at some of the rams that are taken by guided non residents just so they can get a grand slam. pretty interesting picutres in the latest issue going back to 1975. Appears not everyone practices what they preach.

[willy442]

if you want to see some dink rams join the grandslam club and get their excellent magazine and take a look at some of the rams that are taken by guided non residents just so they can get a grand slam. pretty interesting picutres in the latest issue going back to 1975. Appears not everyone practices what they preach.

I am a member of the Grand Slam Club and also have guided Dennis Campbell on a couple of occassions. In fact the first sheep he ever looked at was through my spotting scope. I agree over the last few years it appears Rams are declining in age and size. The thing that bothers me is " With our excellent scientific abilities and unfair allocation policies for guides. Who or what is to blame"? Please tell me.

You and GG got the answers? Why do you and some of your old buddies always have to swing things to the G/O side? Had I wrote this same post without my background, where would have you gone?

Please tell me what it is that you and GG see the problem is with better educating the hunter that wants to pursue HORNED animals?

[chilcotin hillbilly]

As far as grizzlies there are a number of CO's and biologists that would love to see a few more sows shot in certain places such as Bella Coola Valley. Infact I had one suggest there be some sow grizzly draws.:eek:

[bridger]

your posts are always about residents shooting dink rams, too many rams, and being uneducated in the ways of the sheep hunting world. Yet you say nothing about non residents like butch kuflack having 11 grandslams. it would appear from your posts that it is acceptable to kill as many rams as you want as long as you pay some one. you imply that non residents always kill big older rams when there is a lot of documented evidence to the contrary. You also fail to acknowledge that the practice of outfitters taking older rams is based more on economic values than conservation. the main reason non residents went on quota in the 1970's is that the moe felt that rams were being overharvested and at that time non residents were taking 86% of the harvest. as far as the allocation polcy being unfair it is still unbalanced particularily in region 6 where the allowable harvest is around 100 rams and the non resident quota is over 100. what is fair about that? And as far as education is concerned i think it is a great thing, just depends on the teacher.

[BromBones]

Willy -

If education in ID'ing an animal is the purpose here, then lets get some pics happening with some pointers on what to look for so the new hunters can pick up a few tips. There are enough experienced hunters using this site that we should get some good info coming in. Obviously there are other resources available on the web, but most of the guys who read this thread will simply read it and move on. If we get some pics/pointers going, it's all right here for the viewing.

Show a billy & nanny in comparison, as well as a boar and sow. Point out the different body characteristics & behaviour that can help distinguish between them. Also some pics of rams of different ages. Alot gets mentioned on this site about aging a ram by his horn annuli, but not much about looking at body characteristics to help determine age. I was shown that by an experienced sheep guide much like yourself, and it has helped me very much when judging rams in the field. I know you know what to look for so throw it out here.

I'm sure Carl can help get some pics/diagrams posted up, he's pretty slick on the 'puter :)

[oscar makonka]

In most cases sheep are a designated 'trophy hunt' for a reason, it prevents a herd having an unbalanced male female population ratio if only the exceptional old near the end of their time rams are taken. It still allows proper genetics to be passed on without hurting the overall population. Most of those rams are near the walking dead stage of old age, when removed it has little effect on the genetic health as they have passed their genes for many breeding seasons previously, since they are going to die soon it has little effect on population or herd dynamics. Many herds can't handle the 'any legal ram taken out' scenario for long if they are hunted heavily and that is what I believe is the problem many are alluding to here. With the heavy hunting pressure of today it is resulting in a herd that lacks a middle and older age class of male animals. The majority of those rams becoming legal being shot off every year. Sheep have a hierarchial herding structured male and female population, more so than other ungulates, they generally live seperate lives from females most of the year outside of breeding season. Without older rams to lead young males they don't always find the best areas for pasturing, security and wintering, these rams wander and tend to have a higher natural mortality from winter and predators thus compounding the problem of overharvest. Add to that the lack of harvest of female animals you wind up with an out of balance herd with a shrinking genetic pool with fewer male animals doing all the breeding, leaving those few suitable males in poorer shape leading into winter.

With todays higher hunting pressure something will eventually have to be done to restrict the current numbers of legal age/horn sized rams being taken, i.e. more limited entry or age curl restrictions.

There are few places where sheep could benifit from more harvest but they are few, areas like Cadomin Alberta where the sheep population is out of control because of underharvest on an artificial habitat where hunting is not allowed except outside the boundaries of the mine site. The sheep there seldom wander off the site, are concentrated way to heavily in a small area that is prime and ripe for disease and a big die off. But they need to be harvested with all age classes of both sexes being reduced equally, it needs to be an overall population reduction hunt.

[mod7rem]

I still believe that most guys who are passing on "little dink rams", there motives are not conservation, but conversation and scores. I have only hunted sheep for 9 yrs and two of the smallest rams we have taken were also the oldest(10 & 11). I'm sure they would have been passed over as "little dink rams" by many but lets not confuse the reason why.

[oscar makonka]

I still believe that most guys who are passing on "little dink rams", there motives are not conservation, but conversation and scores. I have only hunted sheep for 9 yrs and two of the smallest rams we have taken were also the oldest(10 & 11). I'm sure they would have been passed over as "little dink rams" by many but lets not confuse the reason why.

You bet, that happens, but it is the exception to the rule.

[bigwhiteys]

I still believe that most guys who are passing on "little dink rams", there motives are not conservation, but conversation and scores. I have only hunted sheep for 9 yrs and two of the smallest rams we have taken were also the oldest(10 & 11). I'm sure they would have been passed over as "little dink rams" by many but lets not confuse the reason why.
Any 10+ year old ram is a good ram regardless of size... If it survived 10 long years in the mountains, he'd classify as an old warrior to me.... Sure you want it to be a 40+ incher with nice looking horns but you'd be a fool to pass up an opportunity on a mature ram like that unless you had something bigger.

Carl

[bridger]

much is being made about the age of harvested rams and many new sheep hunters believe in the old days most rams harvested were 10+ yrs. that simply is not true. in the good old days the bulk of the harvest was made up of rams 7,8,and 9 yrs same as today. i doubt if there will ever be a consensus on this forum concerning the harvest strategy surrounding stone sheep, but one thing for new sheep hunters to keep in mind is that the harvest levels are set by professional wildlife managers. People with a great deal of sheep hunting experience (myself included) may know how to hunt sheep, but that doesn't mean that we are know how to manage them.

[bigwhiteys]

one thing for new sheep hunters to keep in mind is that the harvest levels are set by professional wildlife managers.

That should help us all sleep better tonight, right?

Carl

[dana]

So down here in the south we've got a mountain caribou herd that is on the verge of extinction. We have documented grizzly predation on that herd as well a cougar predation. The grizzly pops are very strong yet we have very very few tags released. The seasons are actually very poorly set up with an April 1-May 30 season. The bulk of the area can't even be accessed until late May due to snow melt. Being in the south and very few tags, the draw odds ain't all that great. So, in your minds, if a hunter waited 10+ years to draw a tag and had a week window of access before the end of the season, and happened to encounter a lone 6 1/2 foot bear, it would be unethical to shoot because it may or may not be a sow? A houndsmen running his dogs in the winter in the same area, happens to tree a lone female lion but it would be unethical to shoot because the ministry requests that you not to harvest female lions. Soooo, what are we trying to acheive here? Do we seriously want to help out the mountain caribou and other species in decline like mountain goats, or do we want to keep a bunch of internet specialists happy? Hmmm, I'm willing to bet, you'll never ever achieve happiness from the internet hunting crowd. No matter what you do, what you harvest, in someones book, you are unethical. Just look at most houndsmen forums. Shooting a female is of course unethical, but guess what, so is harvesting a big tom. If you have killed 1 lion you are unethical if you kill any more. Why? Because other houndsmen can't tree that same cat. It has been proven that harvest of toms only result in more cats and more problem cats. Big toms kill younger lions within their territory. Kill off the big toms, more lions are free to occupy a smaller area. So what is the hunter to do? Then there are many on other sites that think hunting with dogs is unethical. It's a no win situation on the net.
Here's my take on it. Who cares what a bunch of yahoos on some internet site think. I can go on and on with various examples with pros and cons for both on various critters open to legal hunting in this province. Here are a few. It is unethical to post a pic of your harvest on the internet because therefore you are bragging. It is unethical not to post a pic on the internet because we should share our success' to inspire the next generation of hunters. It is unethical to shoot a critter in the head, ass, or a tad too far back, even if the critter is showing in a photo as being dead on the ground. Every hunter must be an expert marksmen. It is unethical to shoot through brush at close range. It is unethical to shoot longrange. Where does it end? It doesn't.

[dana]

I personally hunted 14 years for mountain goats before I finally pulled the pin on a small billy. I was mocked by many because he was a young billy and you should only shoot big billies. The fact is, for 14 years, I searched for that monster billy with 6 inch bases and still have yet to have it work in my favour to get one on the ground. The units I have hunted in have very very poor hunting success and most of the time if you see 1 goat in your season, you consider that season to be a big success. Back in the good ol' days, most resident hunters hunted mountain goats for meat and back in those days, it didn't matter if it was a billy or a nanny. And the mountain goat herds didn't seem to be affected by the harvest of either sexs. In modern times, with Heliskiing and helihiking and snowmobling being very popular, it has drastically affected our goat herds. In the last 15-20 years, hunter harvest has been dismal. With highs of 80 tags and the average of 2-3 goats being killed. But the shooting of a nanny is a easy excuse for the decline in our herds isn't it? The politics and economics force us to turn a blind eye to the real issues at play. But lets keep blaming the guy that just wants to get a goat and actually defys the odds and gets one. As hunters, lets ignore the other issues just like the rest of society. Lets pound on hunters for actually going out hunting.

[Elkhound]

lets ignore the other issues just like the rest of society. Lets pound on hunters for actually going out and hunting.

100% agree
Bad enough we have to get pounded on by society. Even worse when we are pounded on by other hunters. We need to stick together. And as I mentioned in another thread. If you feel so strongly about getting things changed. Get off your ass and do something about it. Volunteer. But no....most (not all) find it much easier to get up on their soap box and slag on someone while they hide behind their online persona.

[Hunt'n Guide]

I've got to admit I haven't bothered reading all of the posts in this thread but thought I'd share my thoughts anyway.

Nanny's and sows are "legal" not because it is ok to shoot them; they are legal because those who make policy don't trust hunters to accurately identify the sex of these species. If they did trust the ability of hunters to make the right call then they wouldn't be legal to shoot. Therefore, in my opinion to knowingly shoot a nanny out of a herd or shoot a bear that you think is a sow is wrong.
People make mistakes, including me. I've guided my share of oops bears over the years and I'm supposed to be a professional. Mistakes are why MOE allows hunters to tag sows and nannies without penalty. To shoot one on purpose isn't acceptable.

[aggiehunter]

We had a situation in Region 8 where a kid had an any ram permit and shot a small ram....he was chastised by a local hunter who tried to make him feel like shit...it was actually the local guide outfitter that straightened out the hunter. I see no reason not to shoot a small ram...it's supposed to be groceries boys. Killing off the prime adult males may not be the best game management.

[bridger]

That should help us all sleep better tonight, right?

Carl


absolutely! in my opinion!!

[willy442]

your posts are always about residents shooting dink rams, too many rams, and being uneducated in the ways of the sheep hunting world. Yet you say nothing about non residents like butch kuflack having 11 grandslams. it would appear from your posts that it is acceptable to kill as many rams as you want as long as you pay some one. you imply that non residents always kill big older rams when there is a lot of documented evidence to the contrary. You also fail to acknowledge that the practice of outfitters taking older rams is based more on economic values than conservation. the main reason non residents went on quota in the 1970's is that the moe felt that rams were being overharvested and at that time non residents were taking 86% of the harvest. as far as the allocation polcy being unfair it is still unbalanced particularily in region 6 where the allowable harvest is around 100 rams and the non resident quota is over 100. what is fair about that? And as far as education is concerned i think it is a great thing, just depends on the teacher.

My post stating that we had an unfair allocation policy for guides was cynical and as I've stated I don't support change for guides.
You are the one that can't seem to get past the fact that I was a guide for a very long time. Like yourself I feel that I've accomplished about all I can when it relates to the hunting and judging of horned animals. I also believe education is the best tool we have for resident hunters. Like you say the financial pressure of performing for a guide outfit should create an atmosphere where guides gain the education. Where does the resident get it and what is the benefit of him learning other than for personal interest. It is damn well time where some sort of qualifacation is required before you hunt Horned animals for both the resident and also those who are guiding hunters to our sheep.

On another note Butch has paid a premium to hunt however many sheep he has shot. This has benefited small towns and mom and dad operations where ever he has hunted. I know for a fact you have many rams in your possession also, although you fail to say how many or what size. How much did you put back into the system in green back dollars. I'm not interested in the time you've spent on your allocation dreams or fighting the nonresident hunter.

[willy442]

Willy -

If education in ID'ing an animal is the purpose here, then lets get some pics happening with some pointers on what to look for so the new hunters can pick up a few tips. There are enough experienced hunters using this site that we should get some good info coming in. Obviously there are other resources available on the web, but most of the guys who read this thread will simply read it and move on. If we get some pics/pointers going, it's all right here for the viewing.

Show a billy & nanny in comparison, as well as a boar and sow. Point out the different body characteristics & behaviour that can help distinguish between them. Also some pics of rams of different ages. Alot gets mentioned on this site about aging a ram by his horn annuli, but not much about looking at body characteristics to help determine age. I was shown that by an experienced sheep guide much like yourself, and it has helped me very much when judging rams in the field. I know you know what to look for so throw it out here.

I'm sure Carl can help get some pics/diagrams posted up, he's pretty slick on the 'puter :)

Do a search we've been there done that.

[willy442]

In most cases sheep are a designated 'trophy hunt' for a reason, it prevents a herd having an unbalanced male female population ratio if only the exceptional old near the end of their time rams are taken. It still allows proper genetics to be passed on without hurting the overall population. Most of those rams are near the walking dead stage of old age, when removed it has little effect on the genetic health as they have passed their genes for many breeding seasons previously, since they are going to die soon it has little effect on population or herd dynamics. Many herds can't handle the 'any legal ram taken out' scenario for long if they are hunted heavily and that is what I believe is the problem many are alluding to here. With the heavy hunting pressure of today it is resulting in a herd that lacks a middle and older age class of male animals. The majority of those rams becoming legal being shot off every year. Sheep have a hierarchial herding structured male and female population, more so than other ungulates, they generally live seperate lives from females most of the year outside of breeding season. Without older rams to lead young males they don't always find the best areas for pasturing, security and wintering, these rams wander and tend to have a higher natural mortality from winter and predators thus compounding the problem of overharvest. Add to that the lack of harvest of female animals you wind up with an out of balance herd with a shrinking genetic pool with fewer male animals doing all the breeding, leaving those few suitable males in poorer shape leading into winter.

With todays higher hunting pressure something will eventually have to be done to restrict the current numbers of legal age/horn sized rams being taken, i.e. more limited entry or age curl restrictions.

There are few places where sheep could benifit from more harvest but they are few, areas like Cadomin Alberta where the sheep population is out of control because of underharvest on an artificial habitat where hunting is not allowed except outside the boundaries of the mine site. The sheep there seldom wander off the site, are concentrated way to heavily in a small area that is prime and ripe for disease and a big die off. But they need to be harvested with all age classes of both sexes being reduced equally, it needs to be an overall population reduction hunt.

Well done: Good post and right on the money.

[willy442]

much is being made about the age of harvested rams and many new sheep hunters believe in the old days most rams harvested were 10+ yrs. that simply is not true. in the good old days the bulk of the harvest was made up of rams 7,8,and 9 yrs same as today. i doubt if there will ever be a consensus on this forum concerning the harvest strategy surrounding stone sheep, but one thing for new sheep hunters to keep in mind is that the harvest levels are set by professional wildlife managers. People with a great deal of sheep hunting experience (myself included) may know how to hunt sheep, but that doesn't mean that we are know how to manage them.

How can you even begin to state what the age class of rams used to be. The resources you use for your information have never been capable of accurately being able to age rams with any degree of consistency and from my own guiding experience this is pure bullshit.

The ending on your post about managing sheep is as inaccurate as the rest. Show me any where that the ministry has come up with a successful strategy for managing sheep outside of the National Parks and Cadomin.

[BromBones]

Do a search we've been there done that.

Well maybe post a link to your billy/nanny, boar/sow, and ram aging threads, so everyone reading this one can have a look.

[willy442]

Wow your a real tough guy on an open, public forum.....

Yes female Mtn. Goats should be avoided, a couple hours spent on google looking at goat pictures should give you a good idea what to look for while in the field. But sometimes guys knowingly choose to take a lone nanny for what ever reason, As long as it's legal you have nothing to bitch about.

Yes female G-bears should be avoided but bears are a tough animal to judge/sex. Mistakes happen with bears.

Any ram that is legal ie: 8 years old +, or full curl is a trophy to the owner!!!!! Unless you have something nice to say to the owner when he posts pics of his ram and tells a good story of how hard he has worked to get it then Shut your yap!!!

If you really cared about conservation this much you should be expressing your opinions/ideas to the regional biologists, CO's, and Barry Penner himself. Not putting down hunters that are taking legal animals!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I agree some things may need to be changed in the regulations to improve the health/populations of some animals, but until the regulations change I would never think of looking down on someone for doing something legal!!

Don't concern yourself. Anything I've said on here, I would also say to your face and have never really had a problem with defending myself or ideas.

My family and I, just to give you some back ground, have donated thousands of Dollars and hours dealing with sheep enhancement and issues.

[Rubicon500]

The CI's cant age sheep for the most part , all the numbers are good for is starting a fire. I know of rams that are aged 3 years older than what they actually are. How can a professional be off by that much ? Shows how accurate the numbers are.

[Caribou_lou]

But they need to be harvested with all age classes of both sexes being reduced equally, it needs to be an overall population reduction hunt.


An overall population reduction hunt? That sounds like great wildlife management.....NOT!!

[Coming_out_heavy.]

I've got to admit I haven't bothered reading all of the posts in this thread but thought I'd share my thoughts anyway.

Nanny's and sows are "legal" not because it is ok to shoot them; they are legal because those who make policy don't trust hunters to accurately identify the sex of these species. If they did trust the ability of hunters to make the right call then they wouldn't be legal to shoot. Therefore, in my opinion to knowingly shoot a nanny out of a herd or shoot a bear that you think is a sow is wrong.
People make mistakes, including me. I've guided my share of oops bears over the years and I'm supposed to be a professional. Mistakes are why MOE allows hunters to tag sows and nannies without penalty. To shoot one on purpose isn't acceptable.


This is right on the money in my opinion. They are legal because there is a high chance of mistakes happening, not because there are enough sows or nannies out there that shooting them wont hurt the population. This is why we the hunters need to use good judgement before pulling the trigger. I personally know of hunters knowingly shooting sows and nannies just because they could. I disagree with it, but that doesnt make it wrong legally.

If there is 5 nannies on a hillside, and the right 5 guys show up, those nannies are all dead. I dont care if those are legal kills or not, that isnt right. We need to encourage fellow hunters to think about the consequences of their actions, and hunt accordingly.

[Devilbear]

I wish we could all offer our ideas on this issue without the never-ending personal fighting that goes on here on HBC. I am about ready to just not bother to read these threads as the inter-personal animosity is so distracting and pointless.

As to hunter "education", I am very hesitant to support more restrictions on any type on BC res. hunters and, Dana has made a couple of very valid posts in that respect. I tend to agree with those who see Willy's initial post as a call for greater SELF-regulation and not with anymore un-enforcable government regulations concerning hunting.

If, a given game animal population IS declining and a reduction in harvest is required, the first restriction MUST be to eliminate "non-resident" access to those animals and cancel the GO allocation for that area.

There is NO "right" to hunt in BC, for non-residents and even we who OWN this province by birthright must accept whatever regulations will keep sheep, goats, etc. on the mountain. Seems pretty simple to me.

[dana]

Anyone have any data regarding grizzly predation on stone sheep lambs? I know in the Koots they can be hell on elk calves and they frequent the southern mountain caribou calving grounds as well as being document as taking adult bull caribou. Lets put this thread into perspective. It seems some here are pro-sheep conservation and yet they are against sow grizzly harvest. Cougars are now showing up in many areas in the Peace. Just like anywhere else, some will grow to like the taste of mutton. If this happens, are these same pro-sheep conservationalists against the harvest of female lions in sheep country? You think the hunters of today are hard on stone sheep, just ask anyone that used to hunt Cali's in the Fraser how hard lions are on sheep.

[bridger]

funny but as long as the ci bullshit allowed your quota to be increased you accepted the age structure as being valid. now that you are retired you have changed your tune. i have been consistent for 35 years. the sheep come first, then resident hunter opportunity and then non residents pretty simple. you make a point about justifying non residents taking lots of rams because they pay a lot of money, pretty well sums up the goabc viewpoint on sheep. I spend a hell of lot more money in bc every year than any non resident ever has or ever will, but that isn't important. non residents should be welcome in bc no matter how much money they do or don't spend. money isn't the issue and it certainly shouldn't be used to justify anyone taking a lot of rams. I personally don't care how many rams a resident or non resident harvests as long as they are taken legally and in fair chase. I just don't subscribe to your position that anyone who shoots a ram that doesn't meet your standards is not a sheep hunter. the taking of older age class rams is a personal view should remain so. As far as some nannies and sows being included in harvest strategy by the moe that has nothing to do with the fact that resident hunters can't tell the difference. It is a harvest strategy simple as that. I agree residents should be better educated in harvest strategies, but that doesnt mean anyone that shoots a female or small male of a species should be shown any disrespect. theyshould be congratulated and encouraged.

[Devilbear]

non residents should be welcome in bc no matter how much money they do or don't spend.

DB replies...Really??? Can you explain WHY we BCers should welcome non-residents who provide no financial benefits to us while they kill large numbers of OUR wild sheep and other game animals?

This, does not seem a very practical or publicly acceptable attitude to me.


[ quote;]money isn't the issue and it certainly shouldn't be used to justify anyone taking a lot of rams.

This I strongly agree with and the type of wealthy foreigner who thinks that he can "contribute" money so that he can kill dozens of rams in BC-Canada, is NOT the kind of "hunter" I want or will ever tolerate in BC. I have met a few of these loud Americans in the Kootenays and in the northeastern region of BC and I do not see them as beneficial to BC hunting, or, will ever welcome them to my native province.

[BCrams]

Anyone have any data regarding grizzly predation on stone sheep lambs? .

Personally witnessed a Sow grizz and her 3 cubs (2-3 yr olds) successfully stalk a group of ewes and lambs (not even a week old) and kill several lambs and an ewe in one shot. This was back in the Sulphur drainages.

The hike out in the dusk had me jumping at each shadow in the bushes.

[Little Red Man]

"...........Here's my take on it. Who cares what a bunch of yahoos on some internet site think..................Dana......"

AMEN!!

[willy442]

funny but as long as the ci bullshit allowed your quota to be increased you accepted the age structure as being valid. now that you are retired you have changed your tune. i have been consistent for 35 years. the sheep come first, then resident hunter opportunity and then non residents pretty simple. you make a point about justifying non residents taking lots of rams because they pay a lot of money, pretty well sums up the goabc viewpoint on sheep. I spend a hell of lot more money in bc every year than any non resident ever has or ever will, but that isn't important. non residents should be welcome in bc no matter how much money they do or don't spend. money isn't the issue and it certainly shouldn't be used to justify anyone taking a lot of rams. I personally don't care how many rams a resident or non resident harvests as long as they are taken legally and in fair chase. I just don't subscribe to your position that anyone who shoots a ram that doesn't meet your standards is not a sheep hunter. the taking of older age class rams is a personal view should remain so. As far as some nannies and sows being included in harvest strategy by the moe that has nothing to do with the fact that resident hunters can't tell the difference. It is a harvest strategy simple as that. I agree residents should be better educated in harvest strategies, but that doesnt mean anyone that shoots a female or small male of a species should be shown any disrespect. theyshould be congratulated and encouraged.

Rich: How many sheep have you taken? How much have you spent taking them? Why do you make posts such as how many sheep Butch has if you don't care. Why do you always revert everything back to the guides a group I don't support or have any part of. My posts are my views just like you own yours. Harvest strategies have never worked in the north, not on Deer, Elk, Buffalo, Caribou, Sheep or Goats all strategies that you have had a voice in at one time or another. In my opinion you and some others are so blinded by allocation and allowable harvest that you have lost touch with the real condition of our game herds. The moose strategy seems to have worked taylored after the strategies used in Denmark and surrounding countries. You like making a big deal out of all this to help your personnel life long vendetta against a few. I realize there are many others out there besides me that see through the ideas you support.

[Walking Buffalo]

This is probably out of step with where the thread is now, but it does go with the OP. I posted this in the other thread first, but it should be seen here as well, as this is the hot thread today.

BC hunters can take a lesson from our experience here in Alberta with Mountain Goats. Alberta has just recently reopened a very limited goat season after almost 20 years of Closed seasons. There were 8 tags available last year in Alberta. This year there are 6 tags. Two zones were closed because hunters shot Nannies instead of a Billie.

For those that are truely interested in management principles including hunting for small populations of Rocky Mountain Goats, have a look at the Alberta Goat Management Plan.

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/ManagingPr...untainGoat.pdf (http://www.srd.alberta.ca/ManagingPrograms/FishWildlifeManagement/documents/MgmtPlanMountainGoat.pdf)


An excerpt from sec 3.3.4.1 Recreational Hunting







The model suggested a sustainable harvest rate of 3 percent of the summer population. The model indicated that a population of 100 goats, of which 45 are adult females, could only sustain an annual harvest of 2 adult males and 1 adult female. If more than one adult female was harvested in this population, the hunting area would have to be closed until recruitment replaced the harvested females. If more than 2 males were harvested in this population, the male to female sex ratio would be lower than 1:3 and the season may have to be closed, depending on adult male recruitment. The model should be used cautiously because it uses long-term averages, does not incorporate all of the influences on goat populations and is based on only one herd.

[willy442]

Personally witnessed a Sow grizz and her 3 cubs (2-3 yr olds) successfully stalk a group of ewes and lambs (not even a week old) and kill several lambs and an ewe in one shot. This was back in the Sulphur drainages.

The hike out in the dusk had me jumping at each shadow in the bushes.

From studies we completed years ago Grizzlies are the largest predator on Caribou during calving then wolves take over. Yes I agree grizzlies do get some sheep but also the Eagles play hell with them at lambing and when the lambs are new borns. Personnally I believe as long as the hunting of Grizzlies is allowed an adequate number of sow bears will be shot by those not able to tell the difference. This don't mean I support the hunting of sows. I'm dead against the shooting of Nanny Goats.

[silvertipp]

since reading these threads its got me wondering about this ram
this is 81/2 years old tight curl but not a full curl
so for all the sheep experts is this classed as a dink ram

http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy31/silvertipp/sheep/IMG_23971024x683.jpg

[northernhunter]

He might not be the biggest, but he is over 8 and that is what we want. It is best to kill the oldest rams out of the bunch and leave the younger ones with good genes to move up. The rams in my picture are 13 and 11 years old my dad and i had a 7 year old that was way bigger in horn lengh than either of these 2 but we choose to take the older ones that were on there way out. The outfitter (Drinkall) killed the one we left 2 years later and he went just over 170.

[lordbrown]

From what I understand it is not a sensitivity to harvest, it is more about depleting the breeding stock of the up an coming sheep gene pool.

If the just legal "dink rams" keep getting shot then there is 2 sheep dieing every year instead of that one cranker ram. (The old BIG rams will die every year, the 8 year olds most likely will not) that cranker does not contribute to the gene pool any more so why take the sheep that is breeding the most Ewes?

That 7 year old full curl will have superior genetics to the 9 year old "dink ram" and in turn give better genetics to the pool.

Alot of sheep hunters determine trophy by 2 things, age and score... a 40", 12.5 year old that scores 180 with a is a better trophy then a 40" 8 year old that scores 180. and yet they both get the same score and you are removing the "spent" ram from the Gene pool.

Dutchie

Well said! ...was kinda wondering like how does shooting a dink hurt the population of the sheep? DO rams find only one true love and settle down with the same smelly old ewe vag until they die? lol :mrgreen:

[pearljam]

This is probably out of step with where the thread is now, but it does go with the OP. I posted this in the other thread first, but it should be seen here as well, as this is the hot thread today.

BC hunters can take a lesson from our experience here in Alberta with Mountain Goats. Alberta has just recently reopened a very limited goat season after almost 20 years of Closed seasons. There were 8 tags available last year in Alberta. This year there are 6 tags. Two zones were closed because hunters shot Nannies instead of a Billie.

For those that are truely interested in management principles including hunting for small populations of Rocky Mountain Goats, have a look at the Alberta Goat Management Plan.

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/ManagingPr...untainGoat.pdf (http://www.srd.alberta.ca/ManagingPrograms/FishWildlifeManagement/documents/MgmtPlanMountainGoat.pdf)


An excerpt from sec 3.3.4.1 Recreational Hunting









I dont agree that this applies the same here in BC. The goat draw in Alberta is a "once in a life time" tag. even if your not successful. put that with 4457 applicants for the 6 tags for 2010,,,,,,,,,, Most guys are going to shoot the first goat they see. I would say this has more to do with high nanny harvest..................

[bridger]

goats by their very nature are really easy to overharvest and we have tight controls on goat harvest in bc as well. biologists keep close tabs on the goat harvest and allow only a small percentage of nannies to be harvested. if too many nannies are harvested bio's reduce the overall harvest. As hunters we need to realize that if we harvest too many nannies or sow grizzlies the over all number of tags will be reduced and thus fewer hunting opportunites. that in my view is a good educational approach..

[bigwhiteys]

http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy31/silvertipp/sheep/IMG_23971024x683.jpg


This looks to be another 7 year old ram...

Carl

[daycort]

I was going to say something last nite, but didn't have the heart): .

[silvertipp]

this ram was taken about 18 years ago by my freinds father ,it was inspected twice once by the regional & once by the head biologist ,healso went as far as sending a tooth in with all reports comeing to the conclusion of it being 8 or 8 1,/2 i dont have any other pictures for you to look at nor would i ask as his dad is on his last legs & i dont think it would be apropiate

[bigwhiteys]

http://www.bchuntingblog.com/images/silveram.jpg

[Walking Buffalo]

I dont agree that this applies the same here in BC. The goat draw in Alberta is a "once in a life time" tag. even if your not successful. put that with 4457 applicants for the 6 tags for 2010,,,,,,,,,, Most guys are going to shoot the first goat they see. I would say this has more to do with high nanny harvest..................


It does apply. In Alberta, hunters are asked to select for Billies, and are warned that the harvest of Nannies, while legal, will result in the closure of harvest in that area. Nannies are still being shot, often with the hunter reasoning that they better fill the tag, and like you say, the first goat seen is often killed, even when it is identified as female.

The link shows the harvest management principals regarding population and sex ratios. Goats are unlike any other ungulate that we have in North America in regards to the potential for over harvest.

In Alberta, We have been down this road of overharvesting Nannies. Hunters in BC can learn from our mistakes, or repeat our history.

[bridger]

It does apply. In Alberta, hunters are asked to select for Billies, and are warned that the harvest of Nannies, while legal, will result in the closure of harvest in that area. Nannies are still being shot, often with the hunter reasoning that they better fill the tag, and like you say, the first goat seen is often killed, even when it is identified as female.

The link shows the harvest management principals regarding population and sex ratios. Goats are unlike any other ungulate that we have in North America in regards to the potential for over harvest.

In Alberta, We have been down this road of overharvesting Nannies. Hunters in BC can learn from our mistakes, or repeat our history.

I agree and that is why goats are on leh throughout the province and the harvest of nannies closely documented. Hopefully we will not repeat the mistakes made in Alberta. thanks for the heads up.

[Seeadler]

The only reason why the shooting of nannies is legal is because people have difficulty determining between the sexes. Why else would hunters be asked to select billys over nannies rather than just have the regulations switched to billys only. Things have to change or a lot of the areas in southern BC are going to be closed to all goat hunting.

Why did the LEH authorizations used to say "EITHER SEX, ANY AGE"? The male/female debate can go on foreever, but it isn't difficult for anyone to tell a kid from an adult.