Too many nannies getting shot

[Tlineman]

Had a compulsory inspection done yesterday at the Kamloops office for a sheep and I goat I just got on my last trip. When I phoned to make the appointment, the receptionist asked me whether my goat was a billy or nanny. I'd shot a billy after careful examination prior to the shot. The lady on the phone told me that I was going to be very popular when I arrived.

Arriving for my appointment, I recieved high fives and hand shakes from a bunch of the biologists and staff at the ministry office. They were ecstatic that I had a billy. The biologist who do my compulsory told me that my billy was the first one he'd done all year. All the other goats that had been brought in were nannies. He expressed siginifcant concern over this, saying that nothing but nannies are being shot this year in region 3 this year, as well as up towards Valemount in region 7. He even hinted that the M.O.E. was looking into closing the goat hunts in these areas for fear that the goat populations would be wiped out due to nanny harvest.

I'm not an expert goat hunter, I watched my goat for over half an hour before I shot, wanting to be absolutely sure that what I was shooting was a billy. I know and understand that not every hunt provides this kind of time for examination. All I'm saying is that we need to exercise better judgement in the field as a group or we are jeopardizing our hunting opportunities in the future.

[1899]

I think this is a recurring theme in BC - perhaps elsewhere too? The regs now state it is unlawful to "hunt a female mountain goat accompanying a kid or a female mountain goat in a group that contains one or more kids".

I can't remember if I have ever seen a lone female mountain goat, or a group that had no kids in it.

[huntcoop]

Pretty soon goat hunting will be closed, use your heads people. Pretty soon the regs will say "it's unlawful to hunt goats". Just a matter of time.

[horshur]

how many goats have they checked???

I once heard about a northern community pasture that had high predation....one rancher had lost 50% of his herd!!!! He had two cows in the pasture.

I would like to see the real numbers before coming to very many conclusions..it may be bad or may be not so bad.

[Tlineman]

The biologist said 12 to date this year.

[horshur]

The biologist said 12 to date this year.


thats pretty bad then.

[BlacktailStalker]

If this is the case they need to address it NOW and post this on the gov website, bring it to our attention before it is too late.
There are many guys who havent filled their tags yet.

[ARC]

I brought a billy in to the Kamloops inspector last year and it was a similar story then. I believe he said about 75% nanny harvest at the time. He said guys would come in and get the 'billy or nanny' video, ask lots of questions in regards to identifiying a billy, then end up coming in with nannies anyways.

I dont know the reason. You'd think that if guys were just randomly shooting the first goat they saw it would be a little closer to 50%. I think maybe earlier in the year nannies hang out lower on the cliffs and hence are the first goats guys come across??

[BimmerBob]

This is a troublesome development but like Horshur mentioned above it needs more data to make to the alarming stage. I hope we see better selectivity in the overall numbers or this will mean a declining trend in the goat population. Good luck everyone!

[ThinAir]

Today is the 18th of Sept.....so I'm assuming many of those goat were "early" season Aug/Sept goats.

Not many guys look for "balls" on a billy. I've found that the early season goats are easy to I.D this way. Granted, you need a fairly level angle in relation to the goat,but is good way of being SURE. NO BALLS- NO SHOOT:-D

Late season is a different story.

[Tenacious Billy]

Today is the 18th of Sept.....so I'm assuming many of those goat were "early" season Aug/Sept goats.

Not many guys look for "balls" on a billy. I've found that the early season goats are easy to I.D this way. Granted, you need a fairly level angle in relation to the goat,but is good way of being SURE. NO BALLS- NO SHOOT:-D

Late season is a different story.


Haha! You said "balls"! :-D

[MattB]

I think a lot of hunters need to realize that when its clearly stated that hunters are asked to shoot male mountain goats then that's what they should do. Its understandable if someone makes a mistake in harvesting a goat that they think is a billy and it turns out being at nanny. I don't have much of a problem with that. I have a problem with guys going out and shooting a goat that they KNOW is a nanny; especially when its clearly stated in the regs that hunters are asked to shoot male mountain goats. Just because its legal doesn't make it right or ethical to do given the goat populations in some areas of the province.

[killman]

Nannys grow balls for the winter?????:mrgreen:

[325]

Most mountain goat "hunters" I've met shoot the first adult-looking goat within range. Lazy.

[ThinAir]

Nannys grow balls for the winter?????:mrgreen:


Ya, but they fall off in the spring:mrgreen:

[troutseeker]

Well, if the area you are hunting says either sex is ok to shoot, then I guess they legally are. I understand that hunters asked to shoot male mountain goats, but until they make mandatory to shoot only a billy people will keep shooting nannies...

I would personally not shoot a nanny, but who am I to ask someone else to not do something that is perfectly legal.

Closing the hunt is a typical government knee jerk reaction, just change the regs to no nannies! And with the compulsory inspection, people will think twice before pulling the trigger on a goat whose sex they are unsure of.

[guest]

Regardless of what several say, You can Know the difference if you take your time. It is not that difficult if you do your homework.
Many have shot nannies because .... well it's not illegal ..... ya because if challenged in court the majority of Judges will throw it out.
So here we are, where the biologists said we would be if it continued..... on the cusp of it closing all together ...... shocked ....? No I'm not because several hunters just don't give a damn and say well, I deserved it, I worked hard for it, not thinking of every other goat population in the future and what the consequences will be if the killing of nannies kept up.
Well people, Bills are not commonly found in groups until rut, they commonly live on the toughest, ugliest mountain around. The horns curve over the entire horn length, they are bigger, they are usually dirtier and many other things that you can learn if you want to do what is right for the population. For christmas sake every one ..... smartin UP!

Good thread by the way, brings the attention to some that might not know or give a care.

CT

[Gun Dog]

I dont know the reason. You'd think that if guys were just randomly shooting the first goat they saw it would be a little closer to 50%. I think maybe earlier in the year nannies hang out lower on the cliffs and hence are the first goats guys come across??That assumes that the population is 50-50. If hunters were shooting billies over the years then the population would skew toward nannies. So the question for the biologists is "what the ratio of billies to nannies?"

[pitbell]

They have no choice but to keep it either sex because of the difficulty in telling them apart. It's up to the hunters to be responsible enough to harvest the billys.
Most mountain goat "hunters" I've met shoot the first adult-looking goat within range. Part of the problem is that the nannies usually are found in areas that are easier to get to and new goat hunters should be aware of this. Hunters need to do there best to tell them apart and not just shoot the easy goat because it's less work.

Thinair,
that is excellent advice for hunters who can't tell if it's a billy or not.
NO BALLS, NO SHOOT.

[goatdancer]

The difference in horn curve is very obvious. Trying to find the 'bag' is not that simple.

[tomahawk]

Proof that too many hunters are more concerned about pulling the trigger than spending the time to determine sex. This has been on the MOE radar since the beginning of time but after seeing this and reading another thread on here about how 2 other goats were shot, its going to bring long term results that hunters will not like.

[BCLongshot]

They should implement some serious consequences if you take a nanny.

[ThinAir]

The difference in horn curve is very obvious. Trying to find the 'bag' is not that simple.

I would disagree. In the early season it is simple.

I mentioned it to hopefully aid in some positive IDing. I find that often the rookie goat hunters have a hard time judging goats on horn alone.

This last goat hunt I did this Aug, I was able to see the sack on nearly every billy we saw. If some guys would just put the scope up and look I'm sure it would help the stats.

[pitbell]

The difference in horn curve is very obvious. Trying to find the 'bag' is not that simple.
And while horn curve can be used as a peice of the puzzle, I would recomend thinking twice about shooting a goat based on the curve of the horns.

[Tlineman]

I think you guys have hit the nail on the head. Too many guys shooting the easy goat. The same trip that I got the billy on, we had a chance to shoot another goat. Two big mature goats at 250yds. By themselves, but nannies and kids on the same side of the hill, although 6-700yds away. We just simply weren't sure, didn't have the spotting scope with us, only binos so we passed. Were they billies? We'll never know for sure but we didn't like the fact that there were obvious nannies and kids on the same side of the mountain.

There's always next year, and we have pride in our ethics to not shoot anything that we are 100% sure about. Lets face it, no ones shooting goats for meat, too hard and expensive to get too for that. If your shooting for meat and the trophy, then be sure that what your shooting is really what you want.

[Crawfy42]

If they close nannies altogether, that will mean 2 goats shot and not one. If someone took a nanny, he/she isn't going to bring it back and report it to the c/o. It's going to stay up in the mountains and they will take another goat later in the trip.

[Jelvis]

Big billy goat has a yellow tinge on the hide on lower parts and has longer thicker hornz than nanny goat.
Jel .. Billy ( the kid ) now you know .. Billy got your goat ..

[steel_ram]

Too many aren't willing to take up the "oh well, try again next year" next year. They want it now, figure they deserve it.

Lot's of people make silly lifetime decisions all the time, Tatoo's, piercings, reduclous dept. Maybe if you take a nanny, that's fine, but it's your last goat.

[ufishifish2]

I got my first ever goat this year after numerous goat hunts. It took 10 minutes of bino glassing at less than 50 yards for me to finally figure out which one was a Billy. Sometimes it can be really hard, especially for someone who is still fairly green at it (like me!).
I understand that mistakes happen, but IMO, those who intentionally pull the trigger on a Nannie have very poor hunting ethics, and I don't even want to know them. I remember a thread on HBC last fall/winter where a guy posted pics of his kid and first goat (nannie). I don't care if it's your kids first goat or not. It's just wrong and selfish. Besides, what is that really teaching the kids??

[willy442]

I got my first ever goat this year after numerous goat hunts. It took 10 minutes of bino glassing at less than 50 yards for me to finally figure out which one was a Billy. Sometimes it can be really hard, especially for someone who is still fairly green at it (like me!).
I understand that mistakes happen, but IMO, those who intentionally pull the trigger on a Nannie have very poor hunting ethics, and I don't even want to know them. I remember a thread on HBC last fall/winter where a guy posted pics of his kid and first goat (nannie). I don't care if it's your kids first goat or not. It's just wrong and selfish. Besides, what is that really teaching the kids??

Thats the problem with the attitude seen so frequently on here of I'll be more selective next time. "The time to be selective is all the time" know what you are shooting. It is only ethnical hunting, nothing more. Being a kid like you say is no excuse, especially if accompanied by an adult.

[guest]

Many senior Nannies are the leads for the group, with or with out kids.
The survival of the group can depend on these nannies, the most senior ones will have the largest horns, and likely be the biggest of the group if there are no Billies in the bunch. Then comes along the hunter that really does not want to take the time needed to be sure and POW! Now the entire herd will suffer. Along with our chances of hunting opportunities.
I don't care 1st goat or not, there is no excuse for the dropping of a nannie.
It's just not ethical. It's like shooting a radio collared Ram, or G.Bear, the ministry has asked us not too, so we shouldn't yet there continues to be Jacks out there that have no problem with it ........to them the rest of us say thanks for screwing our chances down the road.

DON'T shoot nannies ! ....... Period !

CT

[Walking Buffalo]

BC hunters can take a lesson from our experience here in Alberta with Mountain Goats. Alberta has just recently reopened a very limited goat season after almost 20 years of Closed seasons. There were 8 tags available last year in Alberta. This year there are 6 tags. Two zones were closed because hunters shot Nannies instead of a Billie.

For those that are truely interested in management principles including hunting for small populations of Rocky Mountain Goats, have a look at the Alberta Goat Management Plan.

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/ManagingPrograms/FishWildlifeManagement/documents/MgmtPlanMountainGoat.pdf


An excerpt from sec 3.3.4.1 Recreational Hunting




The model suggested a sustainable harvest rate of 3 percent of the summer population. The model indicated that a population of 100 goats, of which 45 are adult females, could only sustain an annual harvest of 2 adult males and 1 adult female. If more than one adult female was
harvested in this population, the hunting area would have to be closed until recruitment replaced the harvested females. If more than 2 males were harvested in this population, the male to female sex ratio would be lower than 1:3 and the season may have to be closed, depending on adult male recruitment. The model should be used cautiously because it uses long-term averages, does not incorporate all of the influences on goat populations and is based on only one herd.

[llloyd]

Anyone have some links on identifying them? I've got the CORE book and the alaska guide that is on MOE website and last years synopsis, any other good ones? I wish they'd put that video on youtube.

[pearljam]

BC hunters can take a lesson from our experience here in Alberta with Mountain Goats. Alberta has just recently reopened a very limited goat season after almost 20 years of Closed seasons. There were 8 tags available last year in Alberta. This year there are 6 tags. Two zones were closed because hunters shot Nannies instead of a Billie.

For those that are truely interested in management principles including hunting for small populations of Rocky Mountain Goats, have a look at the Alberta Goat Management Plan.

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/ManagingPrograms/FishWildlifeManagement/documents/MgmtPlanMountainGoat.pdf


An excerpt from sec 3.3.4.1 Recreational Hunting

I dont agree that this applies the same here in BC. The goat draw in Alberta is a "once in a life time" tag. even if your not successful. put that with 4457 applicants for the 6 tags for 2010,,,,,,,,,, Most guys are going to shoot the first goat they see. I would say this has more to do with high nanny harvest..................

[bigwhiteys]

Here is a good article/quiz that I found on the BCWF website. It might be helpful for some in indentifying a billy/nanny.

http://www.bcwf.bc.ca/committees/wildlife/documents/ADFG_Mtn_Goat_ID_Quiz_v2009.pdf

Carl

[Mik]

IIRC this issue of nanny harvest been around longer than this website!

IF indeed it is an issue then why doesnt the MOE do something about it?

There are pros and cons to making a "Billy" only season and I say either S*^t or get off the pot, and some peoples arguements are...oh ya, thats all we need, another closure! Well if you have a better idea, then propose it, but not on this forum! {Propose it to the MOE, get involved} and I know some of you on this website are n thank you as that is where we can make a difference.

Heres some food for thought:

-12 nannies to date, not bad considering theres 364,800 sq mi of land in BC.

-why are there areas of LEH odds of .8:1, 1:1 etc?
(one could easily guess that its hard hunting and no-one goes up there, so why not take a Nanny?) So on one hand MOE says shoot Billies only and on the other the odds are so in favor of a hunter to get a tag, that really, they are saying the population is so high,(no pun Intended), get your azz up there and take one!

[fusion]

I tend to agree with Mik because there are a # of areas that are GOS now where before they were only on LEH.

[Seeadler]

I doubt it matters to a lot of populations whether it is a male or a female taken, supposedly there are many areas where goats die of old age without seeing a hunter.

Areas with easy access are another matter.

[Amphibious]

i heard a similar story when I took my billy in last year. CI's getting beaucoup nannies. an excellent book that really helped me with goat was "A Beast The Color of Winter" by D.Chadwick. goes into detail on not just physical differences between billies and nannies, but also behavioral. I studied for the better part of a year before I attempted shooting a goat, I wish more hunters would do their home work. they are such an incredible trophy, you owe it to yourself and the goats to gauge age/sex accurately.

mistakes do happen though, I understand that.

the safari club has a book on goats by Dr. Valerius Geist due out in October.

[TSW]

Big billy goat has a yellow tinge on the hide on lower parts and has longer thicker hornz than nanny goat.
Jel .. Billy ( the kid ) now you know .. Billy got your goat ..


This is mind blowing information. This should help goat hunters everywhere. If only we could have gotten this info out sooner...

Thanks for googling that for us.

[pitbell]

This is mind blowing information. This should help goat hunters everywhere. If only we could have gotten this info out sooner...

Thanks for googling that for us.


I just spit my coffee all over my keyboard TSW. That was funny.

[Tenacious Billy]

This is mind blowing information. This should help goat hunters everywhere. If only we could have gotten this info out sooner...

Thanks for googling that for us.

That's funny shit.....

[islandarcher]

Don't make me laugh, I just had my wisdom teeth pulled out. Though that was worth the pain.

[Jelvis]

Why is that so funny? A big billy has a duller yellowy tinge to it's underparts and it's horns are thicker than a nanny ..
Jel Tell me how that is so humorous lol .. Babine lake area good hunting for bigger billy goats ..

[rocksteady]

I understand that mistakes happen, but IMO, those who intentionally pull the trigger on a Nannie have very poor hunting ethics, and I don't even want to know them. I remember a thread on HBC last fall/winter where a guy posted pics of his kid and first goat (nannie). I don't care if it's your kids first goat or not. It's just wrong and selfish. Besides, what is that really teaching the kids??

Another HBC Saint...:rolleyes::rolleyes:

The Regulations say you can not shoot a nanny in the company of kids AND the homepage "recommends" that you harvest Billy's, as nanny are susceptible to harvest impact.....Yet, in a lot of areas they are opening a GOS because the LEH applications are being under subscribed and not meeting the desired harvest impact.

If YOU don't want to harvest a nanny that's fine, but calling a member
"unethical" if he takes his child out hunting and legally shoots a legal animal by legal methods, in a legal area......Congrats you are opening yourself up for criticism as being "unethical" yourself.....I guess the parrent should have told the child to shoot a less mature Billy, rather than harvest the mature (maybe even dried up like an old piece of popcorn) nanny.....

You go hunting for big muleys in the rut....Does that mean I can call you unethical because a) you are taking advantage of their rut behaviour (thinking with the little head??) b) The meat is probably so stinky you won't eat it, maybe your dog will, or maybe it will just sit in your freezer until you throw it in the dump next fall??


BTW, I have harvested nannies (2 in the past 35 years) and I don't wish to know you either....:evil: I have plenty of other hunting partners who are ethical, but their halos don't get in the way of hunting and having good times and memories...

[fusion]

Rocksteady..... you just hit the nail on the head!!!!!

[6616]

Yet, in a lot of areas they are opening a GOS because the LEH applications are being under subscribed and not meeting the desired harvest ..

Not meaning to pick sides, but RS makes a very good and valid point here, in most of the Kootenay's as well as other areas in BC at least half the resident LEHs are undersubscribed, the goat harvest by residents as well as non-residents usually falls far short of the AAH. So if the harvest of nannies comes in over the 30% (of the total harvest) that the Ministry aims for, what conservation concern is there if only half the AAH is being utilized.....?

[Mr. Dean]

So if the harvest of nannies comes in over the 30% (of the total harvest) that the Ministry aims for, what conservation concern is there if only half the AAH is being utilized.....?

Careful............. Logical thinking gets in the way of heart-felt emotions around here. :razz:

[dana]

Rocksteady and 6616 make some very valid points. It is interesting to pull out old copies of the LEH regs and see how many tags the Ministry hands out for a lot of areas and then look at the hunter success stats. Many many areas of the province the hunter success is very very dismal. There are many units or subunits that might see 1 goat harvested every 4 or 5 years and yet the ministry hands out lots of tags for these units, producing great odds at 2:1 or 1.5:1 or 1:1 or even less. Heck, go one furthur and look at the success rates for entire regions. Region 3 is a good example of how dismal it can be for a goat hunter. The tag numbers vary from year to year depending on nanny harvest, ranging from 150-220 spread out over 24 subunits. Only a couple of years ago the success rate for the entire Region was 10 goats. Now even if the nanny harvest was 50% that would mean only 5 nannys in the entire Region. When you look at it in actual terms and not just %'s it doesn't look like much to be alarmed about now does it?
Funny thing is, I did my homework on the unit my son harvested his 2008 goat, but too some, I'm just an unethical ba$tard. Like I said in another thread recently, I really don't care what some yahoo on the internet thinks about me. I have tuff skin and the more the yahoos bitch and moan the more I post my pics to piss them off. ;)

It should also be noted that this year the LEH authorizations still say "Any sex, any age" even though the new changes to the regs state that a kid is no longer legal and horn length has to be a min of 10 cm.

[6616]

Here's a few examples from the EK of what I'm talking about:

4-23B: population estimate 620 goats, AAH 25 goats, authorizations issued 150, actual goats killed 10, success rate 7%, un-used portion of AAH 15 goats.

4-24B: population estimate 375 goats, AAH 15, authorizations 100, goats havested 8, success rate, 8%, un-used portion of AAH 7 goats.

4-25C: population estimate 280, AAH 11, authorizations issued 32, actual number of goats killed 1 to 3, success rate 3% to 10, un-used portion of AAH 8 to 10 goats.

4-35B: population estimate 520 goats, AAH 21, authorizations 100, actual kills 13, success rate 13, un-used 8.

All numbers are three year averages from 2007, 2008 and 2009.

As you can see the nanny percentage of the actual harvest can be as high as 50% or more before 30% of the AAH (the red flag point) for nanny harvest is reached. In 4-25C the entire harvest could be nannies some years and the 30% red flag level would never be reached.

Goats are being overly conservatively managed in BC, more authorizations could easily be issued and still have a sustainable harvest.

So, while it's true if we were harvesting at the maximum sustainable level nanny harvest would be a serious concern, but at these harvest levels......???????

[J_T]

6616 thanks for that info. Having read through the initial few posts, (I may not have this down correctly) I agree. I think I'm able to put a picture together that says there were 12 nannies harvested and this represents 75% of the goats inspected to date. (Again, I might not be exact) I think I'm less worried about the fact that they're nannies and more worried that we simply aren't taking goats.

If killing a dozen nannies is causing us concern, we probably should stop hunting goats completely. Region 4 needs more liberal goat seasons. Get hunters out there.