Is This A Legal 4 Point Muley?

[dana]

Due to some drastic misinformation given by some members in the 4 point Classification thread, I thought I'd post up some pics and see if we can get people thinking on the same page.

Now again here's what the regs state,
"Mule Deer-Four Point or Greater Buck- means any buck having at least four tines, excluding the brow tine, on one antler."

"Brow Tine- means the first tine projecting forward or upward in the lower 1/3 of the antler of a moose, caribou, elk or deer"

"Tine or Point- means a branch of an antler which is longer than its breadth and is at least 2.5 cm in length."

So, given these definations (and not I heard about a CO that said this), is this buck a legal 4 point assuming he has a 3 point frame up top? And to go one furthur, which point is the browtine?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/P9120037a.jpg

[Orangethunder]

I'd say yes its legal but only on a weekday. Although I would never shoot one with a boiled out skull.

[tufferthandug]

It's crazy points like those that make five point bull elk six pointers. So I would vote legal.

Illegal is just a sick bird, LOL.

[sako_300]

yes it is. Read the regs on how to measure a point. The little stickers should pass - no scale reference though.

[Hombre]

It's all in how you interpret the semantics of the regulation.The picture
shows three tines if you consider bottom 1/3 as a guide.I would not shoot this buck in a four point only season.

[NaStY]

Looks to dead for me to shoot....

[Buckmeister]

They say bottom 1/3, so wouldn't any of those classify as a brow tine? Perhaps all of them are? Who says you have to limit yourself to just ONE brow tine???.....Just stirring the soup, but some points (pun intended) to ponder.

[Buckmeister]

They say bottom 1/3, so wouldn't any of those classify as a brow tine? Perhaps all of them are? Who says you have to limit yourself to just ONE brow tine???.....Just stirring the soup, but some points (pun intended) to ponder.

Oops....just read your first post again and you wrote the "Brow Tine- means the first tine projecting forward or upward in the lower 1/3 of the antler of a moose, caribou, elk or deer"

My mistake, I should pay closer attention....I guess other points don't have to be brows after all....in the picture my guess is the funny looking one is the brow tine, and yes, as long as one of the other tines shown is over 2.5 cm, it is a legal 4 point.

But are you going to run up to the deer with a tape measure to find out?:-D If in doubt, don't shoot.

[ElectricDyck]

By those definitions technically if those are 2.5 cm in length that is a 4 point and the first is the brow tine although I think I'd let it walk to save an argument on technicalities. The devil is in the details.

[peashooter]

if those three are all over 2.5 and the first one is the brow then that should be a 4 point mule deer. the first point doesnt count, it looks like it goes backwards so it won't qualify for up or forward brow. the gnarly one is the brow tine and the little one is the "4th point".

[chinook]

Man, that buck is as grey as the area its in on this subject!! Im going to say green light for that buck...which is zoomed in and static. But it would be a tough call in the woods with all bugs, brush and the buck not standing still for a close enough look to confirm him as a 4 pnt so I would not likely pull the trigger based on what I see in the pic....too subjective to be worth the hassle.

[dana]

Nothing grey about this buck. Again go back to the regs. "Brow Tine- means the first tine projecting forward or upward in the lower 1/3"

Here's what we can see in the pic.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/P9120037ab.jpg

#1 is pointing forward and is greater than 1 inch and by definition in the regs would be the Browtine. But in the field I could see one being hesitant to call it an inch due to the fact we can't walk up to the deer and tape it to ensure it is indeed an inch before we pull the trigger. But given the regs definition, this is indeed the browtine.

#2 This point is actually 2 1/2 inches long and would easily be identified in the field as such. Following the regs when field judging, most would default this point as the browtine because it is obviously over 1 inch.

#3 Small burr point that is just under an inch. This is not a point according to the regs. In field conditions it would be tuff to say yay or nay so best to default to "not a point" in your point count.

#4 Another obvious point well over the inch mark.

#5 The G1 in the B&C scoring system. In most other jurisdictions, this would be also called the eyeguard or browtine. But here in BC if it is not the first point to project upward or forward then it is just another point and totally countable in the 4 point count.

#6 Another obvious point well over 1 inch.

So given this info, this buck has 4 points above the eyeguard and added to a 3 point mainframe, that makes him more than legal. Even if you decided to call the eyeguard different than me, or decided to default 1 point to less than an inch, you still have 3 more obvious points to add to the counted 3 up top. And all you need is 1 to get ya to 4. Again, no grey area at all. Follow the regs and you won't go wrong.

[mark]

My interpret of the regs. Only 1 of those is the "brow tine" every other point 1" or greater is a point! Pretty clear to me!
Doesnt matter where the fourth point grows from!

Now what about a 3 point mainframe with a forked Browtine?????

[dana]

Lets look at another one.

You are sneakin and peekin through the timber and you bump up this guy out his bed. At 20 yards, he stops behind some brush and turns around to see what disturbed him from his nap. You got a glimpse of rack when he first bolted but no solid point count. The bulk of his rack is covered by brush and this is all you can see for a point count. Is he legal?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/P9120040a.jpg

[Moose Guide]

I say shoot, he is legal!

[dana]

My interpret of the regs. Only 1 of those is the "brow tine" every other point 1" or greater is a point! Pretty clear to me!
Doesnt matter where the fourth point grows from!

Now what about a 3 point mainframe with a forked Browtine?????

What about it? Use that buck as an example. Pretend all the numbers except #4 and #5 don't exist. Classic Split eyeguard. Is he legal? #4 is obviously greater than 1 inch, so would that not be a legal point? Going back to the regs, it says 4 point excluding the eyeguard (singular). It doesn't say excluding the eyeguards (plural). It doesn't say, if the eyeguard splits, you can't call the other points a point. Read the regs not what some guy said on some internet site that some CO said you can't count split eyeguards. Who cares what someone said or didn't say. I wasn't privy to the conversation so all I have to go on as a hunter is what they have printed in the regs.

[ElectricDyck]

Very interesting, by the rules it's legal, will the co in the bush think the same way?

[mark]

What about it? Use that buck as an example. Pretend all the numbers except #4 and #5 don't exist. Classic Split eyeguard. Is he legal? #4 is obviously greater than 1 inch, so would that not be a legal point? Going back to the regs, it says 4 point excluding the eyeguard (singular). It doesn't say excluding the eyeguards (plural). It doesn't say, if the eyeguard splits, you can't call the other points a point. Read the regs not what some guy said on some internet site that some CO said you can't count split eyeguards. Who cares what someone said or didn't say. I wasn't privy to the conversation so all I have to go on as a hunter is what they have printed in the regs.

I was simply adding more food for thought!
Some would say that a point coming off an brow tine is still part of the browtine, thus doesnt count????

I disagree, only 1 point is the browtine, every other is a point, regardless of where it grows.
Same rule for moose and elk etc...

[mark]

Very interesting, by the rules it's legal, will the co in the bush think the same way?

Maybe not, pull out the regs and go over it with confidence and I bet you walk. If not say keep it on ice pal, see you in court! :)

[goatdancer]

Maybe you should show the antlers to a CO and get an 'official' opinion and post it here. All the rest is just guesswork.

[Brambles]

Or this one, If this guy had 3 up top, would he be legal?

The way I read the regs the browtine is the FIRST tine on the lower third, so IMO the second one is a non-typical point and therefore could be counted.

It may not be the intention of the 4 point classification but it meets the definition. Just like spike fork moose, if he has a drop tine club off one side and a full paddle on the other side he's a legal moose, doesn't meet the intention of the classification but it meets the definition.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/Brambles77/IMG_0529.jpg

[Goliath]

......so all I have to go on as a hunter is what they have printed in the regs.


Exactly. By the book they're legal.

Now you gotta ask yourself if you want to fill the tag and go home...or keep hunting.

There are absolutely puny elk that make the cut, and massive moose that don't. ...it makes hunting fun.

[steel_ram]

To me the photo above with the clear double brow is unarguably legal. Technically counting the knarly bases on other I don't know.
Would be interesting to test a few CO's out on this one. Not that it would necessarily make a difference, but don't forget the hunting reg's the CO's go by is inches thick, and trumps the little summary we go by.

[dana]

Brambles,
According to the regs, if that was a 3 up on top, he'd still be legal. What we normally would call a second browtine is indeed a non-typical point and would classify as a point in the 4 point count. With that example, I believe he would meet the intent of the rule as well, because the goal of the 4 point or better rule is to harvest mature deer, which that one is prime example of.

goatdancer,
Why would we need to ask a CO for his opinion. We have the rules printed for us every year. I for one know how to read. I don't need to ask a CO to read them for me. I get a kick out of that on these sites. If in doubt, phone a CO. He'll tell me the right answer. But the official right answer is always "err on the side of caution" right?? We have the regs in our hands and they tell us there is only 1 browtine and it is the first point in the lower 1/3 of the antler. It's that simple. No grey areas involved.

Here's some other pics for ya. If these all were 3 on top, are they legal?
#1
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/P9120028a.jpg

#2
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/P9120030a.jpg

#3
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/P9120034a.jpg

#4
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/P9120041a.jpg

#5
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/P9120043a.jpg

[Chuck]

Non-typicals are imo in a class of their own, and if passed by because they do not fit into the legal category, they will continue to proliferate and eventually most bucks will be physically altered in order to evade the arrow or bullet at which time the authorities will be compelled to adjust the hunting regulations and include them in the legal bag.
See! it will all work out in the end and eventually.

[goatdancer]

Sometimes the regs can be kind of nebulous. I prefer not to waste my time and money in court because of a difference in interpretation. It's far simpler to ask someone in authority and save the hassle. How many wrong interpretations have been offered on this and other sites?

[Cyrus]

The deer in question I was looking at was similar to the one Brambles posted. A clear "clean" looking brow tine where you would expect to see it then a clean looking point about 2-3 inches above (approx) the brow tine (more than 2.5 cm long). I researched the regs while sitting watching the deer but could not find anything about more than one brow tine....I chose not to chance it as knowing my luck I would have been wrong!! I guess a but of chincy way to get a legal 4 point but he really was a big buck 3 points up top or not!!

[Brambles]

Dana

IMO I'd say all those bucks would be legal if only 3 on top, christ some of those bucks have soo much garbage on the lower third that I don't even think they have to have any points up top to meet the definition.

Look at it this way, how many times do you see/hear guys shooting elk because of a sticker point here or there on a 5 point main frame. Nothing in the regulations say that final point or any of the points for that matter has to be in a typical formation.

[jml11]

Reminds me of my thread from last year...thought it was interesting how there were opposing opinions on the definition...and how a lot of people said "it isn't isn't a 'trophy' buck, let it walk, there are plenty of other 'real' 4-pointers out there"...they all missed the premise of the thread...it was about legal or not legal...not trophy or non-trophy.

Here's the thread:

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=41630

[Brambles]

The deer in question I was looking at was similar to the one Brambles posted. A clear "clean" looking brow tine where you would expect to see it then a clean looking point about 2-3 inches above the brow tine (more than 2.5 cm long). I researched the regs while sitting watching the deer but could not find anything about more than one brow tine....I chose not to chance it as knowing my luck I would have been worng!! I guess a but of chincy way to get a legal 4 point but he really was a big buck 3 points up top or not!!


If that extra point was 2-3 inches above the brow and had a separate base, even the naysayers would have to agree you should have shot. No brainer legal deer there.

[buck nash]

Of that last lot I'd say all would be legal but #4 would be a judgement call cause the V between the two little stickers on the right may not be an inch deep. you would have to count both as one point. together they are longer than they are wide but with 2 little points does it count?

[dana]

Dana

IMO I'd say all those bucks would be legal if only 3 on top, christ some of those bucks have soo much garbage on the lower third that I don't even think they have to have any points up top to meet the definition.

Look at it this way, how many times do you see/hear guys shooting elk because of a sticker point here or there on a 5 point main frame. Nothing in the regulations say that final point or any of the points for that matter has to be in a typical formation.

Brambles,
I posted a lot of those to show the extremes a buck can grow points not associated to the mainframe, and yet some people still think you should call a CO and ask him if any of them are legal. I guess that is one of the reasons why hunter success is so freakin low in 4 point or better seasons. No one wants to take the responsibilty of calling a point a point. They are always second guessing themselves and therefore do exactly as the CO's say and err on the side of caution. BTW all those bucks are 200 inch or better bucks. ;)

So for those that think the junk on the bottom of those bucks don't count as points, what would you do if you saw a fork moose in spike/fork season that had 1 devil point on each side just like those muleys? One year I had a fork bull come in to less than 8 yards and he had matching devil points off his bases. They each were about an inch long. Now, one could have been 7/8's and the other could have been 1 1/8 but IMO they kicked that bull out of the legal range so I stood up and yelled at him so he wouldn't step on me.

[bigshooter]

I would say that the crap at the bottom wouldn't count but the regs give room for error so a judge would have a hard time giving you a fine so fire away. I had a classic 3 point with a drop tine with the other side broken off he tasted great.

[dana]

Sooo how do you rationalize a 3 point with a dropper being legal, yet the bucks with the junk at the bottom, several with numerous points ranging from 1 to 5 inches in length, as not meeting the 4 point definition?

[bigshooter]

Take it as it looks I have seen spikes with balls of thorns ontop what do you make of them?

[hardnocks]

I think the reg`s give a diffenent picture of 2 branched antlers making a four point . My opinion is they are not legal and would never shoot them as a 4 point.

[BCrams]

This is a good thread.

A point is a point. They have defined what constitutes a point in the hunting regulations. Most of those bucks Dana posted have 'points' as legally defined in the regulations being greater than 1".

It goes outside the 'realm' of what most hunters believe a legal 4 point buck should look like (i.e., two forked branches above the eyeguard if the eyeguard exists). Whether those extra 1"+ points are around the base or coming off any of the main beams of a 2 or 3 point mainframe buck, it counts as a point. Its a no brainer and the wording of the regs around that issue is pretty clear cut with no grey area. A CO doesn't have much of a case if he / she wishes to take issue with someone shooting a 2 or 3 point buck that has a couple 2" points around the eyeguard during a 4 pt season.

Case in point with Dana's example of a buck with an dropper greater than 6" off the eyeguard area on a 3 pt mainframe buck .... whereas a 1.5 inch "point" isn't??? .... pretty funny how some folks can't wrap their heads around it.

Sometimes you might be faced with seeing a buck in the timber where you can only see 2 points above its head yet can see 'junk' around the eyeguard greater than 1" ..... some big mule deer buck hunters won't hesitate to pull the trigger knowing that could very well be a monster buck staring them down .... those who wait to count the uppers may get that hind end view of a south bound buck and no shot.

Then again, if you're not positive and unsure of your target, don't shoot.

[bigshooter]

The drop was past the first split

[dana]

If a buck has 4 points over an inch long on one side, excluding the eyeguard, he's legal. That's how I read the regs. If the so-called spike with balls of thorns on top met that definition, then he'd be legal. How hard is it to grasp that simple definition.

[bigshooter]

I agree
If you shoot a two year old deer you will know, but it is legal.

[dana]

The drop was past the first split


But it doesn't have the four point frame like in the picture in the regs, so according to some on here, it wouldn't have been legal either. But I'm with ya and say damn rights it's legal, just like any one of those bucks in my pics.

[wolverine]

I guess for me, the acid test is this. Would I feel comfortable pulling into a game check or being checked in the woods with that laying in the box of my truck. Short answer: NO . If I don't have that comfort zone, I don't pull the trigger. I think that's a conscience working. Some have stronger ones than others.

[dana]

I agree
If you shoot a two year old deer you will know, but it is legal.

Yup, I've even seen lots of basket racked yearling 4's with undeniable 4 point frames. I have killed several of them over the years too. Good genetics and good eating.:mrgreen:

[dana]

I guess for me, the acid test is this. Would I feel comfortable pulling into a game check or being checked in the woods with that laying in the box of my truck. Short answer: NO . If I don't have that comfort zone, I don't pull the trigger. I think that's a conscience working. Some have stronger ones than others.

My question to you would be why would you feel uncomfortable bringing in any of those bucks through a game check? They probably would be the biggest bucks that any of the CO's checked all year.

[bigben]

Yup its legal

[bigshooter]

I think that is what gets the COs off if they feel that you know that you have done wrong they will ride you that much harder.

[steel_ram]

What do you guy's think the original intent of the law was? I realize what it says (in the synopsis any ways) and going by that, a point is a point. Is it a matter of what we can legally get away with or what is right?

[Roughneck Country]

nope thats a brow tine, a messed up one but still a brow tine.

[oldtimer]

Legal !! ugly but LEGAL Mike

[Gateholio]

Probably should check the actual WILDLIFE ACT before challenging a CO on a "unconventional" 4 point.

But if it's legal, it's legal. Antler restrictions are often kinda bunk.:-D

[dana]

Gate,
Do you honestly think the wildlife act goes into detail regarding split brows and nontypical points? If it did, why would it not be in the regs? Do you think the Ministry is trying to trick a bunch of hunters by printing regs that state one thing and having a Wildlife Act that the CO's know about that contradict the regs? Is it a conspiracy so the Liberal government can fill the coffers with more money from fines? ;)
We as hunters are given the regs with rules that we are to follow. The 4 point or better regs haven't seen much revision for years. Don't you think if there was a problem with the definition that they would have changed it by now? A point is clearly defined. A browtine is clearly defined. All the bucks I posted pics of are clearly legal.

As for intent of the law, the 4 point or better seasons have been in use in this province for 20 years now. They are used to lower hunter harvest because it takes time to count points and that time is sometimes all the buck needs to escape the hunter. It also puts focus on harvest of older mature bucks that are more prone to winter kill because they can rut so hard, thus loosing much of their summer fat stores which they need to survive during the winter. Putting the focus on mature bucks also limits hunter harvest because after a buck has a few years under his belt, he is more prone to develop some keen smarts. While those are the goals, a lot of young 1 and 2 year old 4 points are killed every year. That is more a result of good genetics than anything else. I could post up many pics of young bucks like these that are classic 4x4's and no one on this board would dispute their legality, yet they are young immature bucks in the 1 to 2 year age bracket. Yet, these same members say the bucks I posted up ain't legal for some unknown reason even though the regs clearly say they are. Every one of the pics I posted up are of bucks that are big and mature, in the 5-9 year age class. These are bucks that the season was designed for.

[bigshooter]

For every young buck that has been taken because he grew nontypical points 5 mature bucks have been let walk because they regressed back to a large 2 or 3 .

[dana]

Big Shooter,
I ain't taking young bucks that grow nontypical points. I'm taking 1 and 2 year old bucks with 4 point mainframes. I myself have killed several over the years. They are great eating :) But do they really meet the goal of the 4 point season of harvesting mature bucks. NOPE! But guess what, a ton of these little guys get killed every year and nobody thinks any wrong of it. But....there still seems to be many on this thread that somehow think all the bucks I posted up are somehow illegal. Strange if ya ask me.

[wolverine]

I guess what I'm saying Dana is that from what the photo shows I wouldn't be that confident that a C/O would see it the same way I would and if that happens try and convince them otherwise. I'll bet you're right, it likely is a big old knarly buck but arguing with C/O's is a low percentage fight. Possibly if I saw the buck that the rack was attached to I may feel different...

[Downwind]

I guess what I'm saying Dana is that from what the photo shows I wouldn't be that confident that a C/O would see it the same way I would and if that happens try and convince them otherwise. I'll bet you're right, it likely is a big old knarly buck but arguing with C/O's is a low percentage fight. Possibly if I saw the buck that the rack was attached to I may feel different...

Ya like arguing with your wife; doesn't matter whether you're right you are still wrong! :mrgreen:

[Gateholio]

[QUOTE=dana;744429]Gate,
Do you honestly think the wildlife act goes into detail regarding split brows and nontypical points? If it did, why would it not be in the regs?

DOn't know, but I have always read the THIS SYNOPSIS IS NOT THE LAW in the regs, so I think it's prudent to double check the WA to ensure your position is correct, in case there is some further definitions.

[dana]

Gate,
Again, why would there be furthur definations that they wouldn't inform the average hunter about in the printed regs? Seems hunters nowadays don't know how to read. I am not spinning the regs and making them say something they don't say. I am just stating what the regs state. Does every hunter carry a cell phone and have the CO on speed dial so when they see a critter, they can call him to find out whether it is legal or not?

Wolverine,
I believe CO's are very rational people. You show them you know the regs in and out, I don't think you will have a very hard time dealing with them. If there are some newbie CO's that don't know the regs in an out like the older ones, take it as a way to educate them. If you get one of those rare robocop CO's, and he wants to make your life hard because you were obeying the law and following the rules, then a little talk to their boss might be in order. Hunters really need to get over their "fear" of the CO's and their fear that they 'may' be doing something wrong that they don't know about. There is not some hidden rule book that the CO's have in their tickle trunk. They have the same regs as we have. The Regs are just the keypoints of the Wildlife Act in layman's terms.

BCrams touched on a very valid point. A lot of times, you only get a piece of antler to look at when you are hunting trophy bucks. Seeing some trash on the bottom and seeing a some upper tines give the hunter the 4 point count and tell the hunter some hints on what the rest of the rack might look like. Many many older mature bucks don't give you the opportunity to stare too long. In all the pics I posted up, these bucks are more than legal 4 points up on top too. All you need to count is 4 points on one side excuding the eyeguard. You don't have to count all the points.
Case in point, this is one of the bucks I showed pics of his lower 3rds. He is a 11x9 215 inch buck. I shot him during a 4 point or better season and I counted, 1, 2, 3, 4 BANG! Many of you guys passed on him. I didn't. ;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Jan23040a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Jan23014a.jpg

Here is another buck that many of you guys decided to pass on. He is a 13x12 that scores in the 225 range. If you saw his lower 1/3 and waited to see more of his tops, in another second you might be left with that sinkin gut feeling of watching asses and antlers of the biggest buck you've ever seen as he escapes to never ever be seen again.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Shed%20Pics/13X12a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Shed%20Pics/13X12c.jpg

[scope-bite]

If you are making the call that a buck is legal based on the lower 1/3 and a glimpse at the top then you better be damn sure those lower points are longer than an inch! I guess it comes down to how good of a look you get at the lower points and how comfortable you are judging the length of the lower points.

I don't think there's any shame in letting a big buck walk because you couldn't identify him as a legal 4-point. That's all part of being an ethical hunter.

[BCrams]

If you are making the call that a buck is legal based on the lower 1/3 and a glimpse at the top then you better be damn sure those lower points are longer than an inch! I guess it comes down to how good of a look you get at the lower points and how comfortable you are judging the length of the lower points.

I don't think there's any shame in letting a big buck walk because you couldn't identify him as a legal 4-point. That's all part of being an ethical hunter.


There will be guys who will do the right thing and pass up a potential big buck because of their ability level to confidently judge the point(s). I would expect that of anyone to be sure of their abilities and when in doubt, not to shoot.

There will be guys in the other camp who will be able to get just a glimpse and know instantly whether its a legal 4 and whether those points are over an inch and may choose to shoot or pass based on what he has been able to see. That comes with alot of experience and seeing a lot of big bucks.

[T300WSM]

This is the biggest waste of space I have seen on here to date. Why would you look for small pionts or tines? Look for the 4 points above the brow. If you cant see 4 points on the main beam dont shoot and dont take your chances on brow tines that may or may not be legal. Hunt Wells Gray Park and you will find bucks that you will not have to look twice to tell if legal.

[dana]

To call this thread a waste of space is a little drastic given how many views its had don't ya think? ;) I think it is really important for hunters to know the regs. That is the whole point to this thread. This is just one of many examples where sites like this have bred rumours about "I heard a CO say this or that". This thread was in response to one of those said rumours.
As for counting points and hunting big bucks in the timber, I don't know how many times I've had only a piece of one side of an antler to judge. And yes, I have had that sinkin gut feeling of watching the biggest buck I've ever seen vanish into the rhodo jungle because I was too slow.

[Fisher-Dude]

This is just one of many examples where sites like this have bred rumours about "I heard a CO say this or that". This thread was in response to one of those said rumours.


I think that's directed my way from the other thread wherein I told people that the CO Service does NOT consider a split brow from the same base as a 4th point. This wasn't a "rumour", this was a conversation with 3 COs in their office looking at the pic that BCRams posted last year on this site. I think some know-it-alls :wink: think that B&C scoring will give them all the legal answers instead of reading the Wildlife Act and consulting with the guys who will seize your animal and write you a ticket.

I'm not sure where the Wildlife Act refers to the B&C scoring rules for determining the legality of an animal. I've read every section and see no such reference.

You choose your sources (B&C scoring rules), and I'll choose mine (time with the COs, learning the ins and outs of the Wildlife Act).

I know I will NEVER be in court, with a sour taste in my mouth over my whole hunting experience, fighting to keep an illegal animal because I didn't consult the proper resources before I pulled the trigger. :)

[BCrams]

the pic that BCRams posted last year on this site.

A picture I posted?? I can't recall. I don't think I even post up the buck I shot last year!!

[Fisher-Dude]

A picture I posted?? I can't recall. I don't think I even post up the buck I shot last year!!

Thought it was your thread...maybe jml's. It was a split brow 3 point. Let 'im walk. :wink:

ETA - just searched - it was jml's pic. I forgot, you never get out of the house. :mrgreen:


http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e397/jflex48/74524119ASY7uBvemuledeer33971s1.jpg

[Bear Chaser]

This is the biggest waste of space I have seen on here to date.

I don't know what your hunting experience is; I have over 25 years looking at mule deer bucks of all shapes and sizes.
I found this thread interesting & informative. If anything it should get guys thinking before they pull the trigger.
Thanks Dana for asking some controversial and thought provoking questions.

[dana]

So fisherdude,
Show me where I'm wrong. I'm not using the B&C scoring system, I'm using what is printed loud and clear in the regs as the definitions of a point, a browtine and a 4 point or better buck. If you look at my first example with the arrows, you can see I didn't follow the B&C's definition of a browtine. In that example the G1 is clearly not the browtine according to the regs definition of the first point in the lower 1/3 of the antler. Show me in the wildlife act where I am wrong. Post it up. That's the whole point to this thread. Just saying you had a talk with 3 CO's and got there opinions doesn't mean squat. Show me where a CO has a legal right to ticket someone for shooting a buck like any of the ones I posted up. And maybe get your CO friends to jump in and show us where they are coming from. Why would the regs state one thing for the common hunter to follow and yet it is somehow wrong. Lets hear the goods.

[dana]

I don't know if Fisherdude is in elk camp right now or if he's just having trouble backin' up his statements, but here's a link to the Wildlife Act.
http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/00_96488_01
Lets see if someone can find anything in there to help Fishersadud out.

[Craven200]

I myself take pride in knowing the regs, knowing what I can and can't shoot. Most of us do. Should I shoot an animal that the local CO does not feel is legal, I will be prepared to articulate my actions in court if I need to dispute any charges.

[dana]

So FD, why the silence? Can't find it in the Wildlife Act either? Hmmm, maybe it's in a different Act? Maybe you can find it in the PixieDust and Fairies Act. I'm sure it has got to be the law in NeverLand. ;)

[bigshooter]

How far up the main beam would a 1 inch tine be to call it a point for you Dana?

[Gateholio]

Gate,
Again, why would there be furthur definations that they wouldn't inform the average hunter about in the printed regs?

Why? Because sometimes the regs don't spell everything out correctly, so double checking with the WA is never going to be a poor choice. The regs include pictures for 4 pt reference, so it's easy to assume that to be legal it must look similar to the pictured deer.

Since it's legal, thats great for everyone. I hope lots of hunters drop deer this year with 3 up top and extra browtines.

[dana]

How far up the main beam would a 1 inch tine be to call it a point for you Dana?

What do the regs say? 1st point in the lower 1/3 that is forward or upward that is 2.5 cm in length is the browtine (figure I'll avoid the word 'inch' so I don't get accused of just following B&C rules :twisted: ) We can't call that point in our 4 point count according to regs right? So what other restictions are there in calling a point a point? Does it say where a point can't occur? So, answer your own question. You tell me how far up the mainbeam would you call a 2.5 cm point a point?

[bigshooter]

After the ( Y ) for me but if it goes up down sideways or what ever it is a shooter.

[dana]

Why? Because sometimes the regs don't spell everything out correctly, so double checking with the WA is never going to be a poor choice. The regs include pictures for 4 pt reference, so it's easy to assume that to be legal it must look similar to the pictured deer.

Since it's legal, thats great for everyone. I hope lots of hunters drop deer this year with 3 up top and extra browtines.

Gate,
I can tell ya I have seen some absolute gagger 3 points over the years. Some I have watched through the binos for a long long time just trying to find an extra point on one side. I would love to shoot a giant 3 that has huge tines, awesome width and mass and breaks that elusive 175 net mark.

[dana]

After the ( Y ) for me but if it goes up down sideways or what ever it is a shooter.

So how did you come to the after the (Y) conclusion by reading the regs?

[Gateholio]

Gate,
I can tell ya I have seen some absolute gagger 3 points over the years. Some I have watched through the binos for a long long time just trying to find an extra point on one side. I would love to shoot a giant 3 that has huge tines, awesome width and mass and breaks that elusive 175 net mark.

Yup, i've seen a few, too. Never thought to look for a "extra" point to make it legal- until now.:wink:

[bigshooter]

So how did you come to the after the (Y) conclusion by reading the regs?

No. I see your point and if I saw a 3 with lots of good length garbage at the bottom and a noticable brow tine I would have to question myself but I would feel alot beter if the point came after the Y.

[peashooter]

you may have opened the door for a pile of trashy "3 points" to get nailed. i will keep you posted if i can connect on one myself. :-D

[OutWest]

you may have opened the door for a pile of trashy "3 points" to get nailed. i will keep you posted if i can connect on one myself. :-D

Only spikers and 2 points where you go :mrgreen:

[Greenhead]

here fishy fishy! lol. Elk aint open in that neck o the woods yet!

[BCrams]

here fishy fishy! lol. Elk aint open in that neck o the woods yet!



Might not be too far into the future if they keep spreading like they are. I hear tell he's got them dialed in already. :-D

[dana]

I see FD has posted on some other threads. What's up dude? Can't be a man and admit you were wrong?

[Fisher-Dude]

I see the impatient child is tugging at my shirt tail. I've been busy elk hunting while he's been busy chirping on HBC. :mrgreen:

All I ever said was that split browtines are not considered extra points by the CO Service, as evidenced by the pic that jml had posted last year. If a deer has other points that meet the definition of tine besides browtines, they would be legal 4 points if there were 4 or more besides the brow or split brow. The OP's example sounds like a legal deer from his description.

The only person wrong in this entire thread was Mr Dana's assumption that I had said the pictures he had posted weren't legal 4 points. I'd like to see where I said that. :wink: :mrgreen:

[Fisher-Dude]

Might not be too far into the future if they keep spreading like they are. I hear tell he's got them dialed in already. :-D

Watched two bulls fight tonight - pretty cool sight. Buggers don't want to leave goat country to come down to investigate that sexy cow call though...yet. :wink:

[dana]

Still want to know where legally the CO service can say a split browtine is not a point? Where does it say this, as the regs are very clear that there is only 1 browtine and that is the first point in the lower 1/3 of the antler that is forward or upward. No where does it say one can't count a 2.5 cm+ tine that happens to grow off the browtine. Where do the CO service get their legal right to charge a hunter for harvesting such a buck? If a honest hunter follows the regs, the CO's have no right in such a charge. Again MR FishingForExcusesDude, show me where I'm wrong? Get you CO buddies to sign up and explain to us how they can charge someone for following the regs?

[f350ps]

Another display of keyboard courage at it's finest. I would probably be the last person to defend FD but I gotta say, Dude, yer starting to sound like a naggin ole lady. Go hunting for christ sakes! Maybe you should report him to the internet police for not responding when you asked him to, or maybe he's hunting or something. Who the F%^K really gives a shit other than you? K

[peashooter]

Another display of keyboard courage at it's finest. I would probably be the last person to defend FD but I gotta say, Dude, yer starting to sound like a naggin ole lady. Go hunting for christ sakes! Maybe you should report him to the internet police for not responding when you asked him to, or maybe he's hunting or something. Who the F%^K really gives a shit other than you? K

:mrgreen: :shock: :eek: :biggrin:

[f350ps]

:mrgreen: :shock: :eek: :biggrin:
Hey, there's 4456 views and only 86 responses and I'd bet most of them were the OP's, so that means 4370 people are probably thinkin the same as I am. As I said before, go kill something for christ sakes! K

[Brambles]

I find it hard to say, cause Dana IMO is the HBC Chiuaua!! You know, the one dog in the pack that is always looking to exhert his dominance, lifting his leg and peeing all over everything, picking fights, barking at the old neighbour couple all of which because he's vertically challenged.

And well FisherDude, he's a runt too so its nice to see the yappy chiuaua's barking at eachother for a change..

Anyways' I got a little sideways, What I was going to say was I have to agree with Dana. I can't see where the CO service can legally stand behind the Split Brow topic. IMO the regs are clear on the definition of a browtine and what constitutes a Point.

[Dannybuoy]

What I was going to say was I have to agree with Dana. I can't see where the CO service can legally stand behind the Split Brow topic. IMO the regs are clear on the definition of a browtine and what constitutes a Point.
Although not to muddy the water .... if you are talking about an actual
split brow tine where the base is at the same point on the main beam .How could you say that it wasnt the first point ?(both) just a split point ?

[Rubicon500]

The CO's wouldnt stand a chance in court if someone shot a 3 point up top and spilt Browtines. The regs Strictly says the FIRST upward or foward POINT on the lower 1/3rd , not points. Id tell the CO's they are full of shiit and should learn how to read the regs, plain n simple. A judge would laugh in there face and toss it right quick.

[dino]

I find it hard to say, cause Dana IMO is the HBC Chiuaua!! You know, the one dog in the pack that is always looking to exhert his dominance, lifting his leg and peeing all over everything, picking fights, barking at the old neighbour couple all of which because he's vertically challenged.

And well FisherDude, he's a runt too so its nice to see the yappy chiuaua's barking at eachother for a change..

Anyways' I got a little sideways, What I was going to say was I have to agree with Dana. I can't see where the CO service can legally stand behind the Split Brow topic. IMO the regs are clear on the definition of a browtine and what constitutes a Point.
I think its called little men syndrome! I coulnt resist,
I kinda like all the mental dualing on here. I just hate all the happy face icons, They are kind of gay. http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

[steel_ram]

I'd like to see it tested. (by someone else). If the law as written serves the purpose of taking out mature bucks with or w/o junk as intended then it's fine. If they want us only taking "typical" 4 up top bucks, then they better rewrite it that way.

[wildman 22]

i think this is a great thread.always wondered about little points by the bases and split brows.have seen a lot of big 3 pointers but have always looked at the top of the rack for an extra point.now if i have time i will be checking at little lower also. thanx dana

[Fisher-Dude]

Still want to know where legally the CO service can say a split browtine is not a point? Where does it say this, as the regs are very clear that there is only 1 browtine and that is the first point in the lower 1/3 of the antler that is forward or upward. No where does it say one can't count a 2.5 cm+ tine that happens to grow off the browtine. Where do the CO service get their legal right to charge a hunter for harvesting such a buck? If a honest hunter follows the regs, the CO's have no right in such a charge. Again MR FishingForExcusesDude, show me where I'm wrong? Get you CO buddies to sign up and explain to us how they can charge someone for following the regs?


Just saw this yapping. Here's the law that denotes BRANCH for brow tine definition, not POINT. BRANCH immediately excludes split brow tines.


"brow tine" means the first lateral branch, of an antler of deer, elk, moose or caribou, that projects forward and occurs in the lower one third of the antler

http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/190_84_01


Someone please post a recipe for crow - Dana's got one to eat.

[Jelvis]

Way to go fd, finally someone with knowledge and facts
Jel .. a little ketchup with that black bird .. ? .. lol .. you dah man .. just the facts .. danno haha

[d6dan]

Someone please post a recipe for crow - Dana's got one to eat.

Here's one :mrgreen:.


http://www.crowbusters.com/recipes.htm

[peashooter]

bow down to fd, dana gonna respond now? huh whats the delay. cat got your tongue. what gives. hahaha.

[dana]

Read the point definition. "tine" or "point" means the branch of an antler which is longer than its breadth and is at least 2.5 cm (1 inch) in length.
So is not a point or tine a branch? So what is your point FD? The browtine is the first branch yes. But only one. A branch=point=tine. Sorry dude, finding another word to describe a point still doesn't change the definition of a point.

[Fisher-Dude]

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww276/tbattitori/EatingCrow1.jpg

[Brambles]

Just saw this yapping. Here's the law that denotes BRANCH for brow tine definition, not POINT. BRANCH immediately excludes split brow tines.


"brow tine" means the first lateral branch, of an antler of deer, elk, moose or caribou, that projects forward and occurs in the lower one third of the antler

http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/190_84_01


Someone please post a recipe for crow - Dana's got one to eat.

I think your grasping at straws here FD.

[dana]

Just saw this yapping. Here's the law that denotes BRANCH for brow tine definition, not POINT. BRANCH immediately excludes split brow tines.


"brow tine" means the first lateral branch, of an antler of deer, elk, moose or caribou, that projects forward and occurs in the lower one third of the antler

http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/190_84_01


Someone please post a recipe for crow - Dana's got one to eat.

Sooo, again you are saying the browtine is a branch and not a point but again I say look at the legal definition of point. "tine" or "point" means the branch of an antler which is longer than its breadth and is at least 2.5 cm (1 inch) in length.

So who is eating crow?

[Fisher-Dude]

Not me. :mrgreen:

[dana]

I easily proved ya wrong with your own link. You thought you had me. So did a few others. They, like you, obviously didn't read the rest of the definitions. Took me a total of 2 seconds to prove yet again that you are full of $hit. ;)

[j270wsm]

The CO's wouldnt stand a chance in court if someone shot a 3 point up top and spilt Browtines. The regs Strictly says the FIRST upward or foward POINT on the lower 1/3rd , not points. Id tell the CO's they are full of shiit and should learn how to read the regs, plain n simple. A judge would laugh in there face and toss it right quick.


In the regs on page 5 there is a pic of a 4pt mule deer/black tail. The pic doesn"t show or state anything about sticker points. So I would think that you might have a harder time in court than you think. I personally think that it is a legal 4pt buck, but you have to remember if you go to court YOU have to prove to the judge that it is a legal buck

[dana]

The picture in the regs also doesn't show a 3x4 or a 5x4 or a 5x5 and so on now does it? Look at the pictures for Spike-fork moose. I don't see a 2x1 or a 1x1 in the pictures, do you? So if they ain't in the pictures they must not be legal right?

[wildman 22]

fd, if you shoot a buck with not your usual browtines and your main beam is in the bottom 1/3 of the antler are you really shooting a2 point? also an elk ,if the bottom 2 points connect at their bases are you actually shooting a 5 point?also is it at all possible to shoot a tripalm bull moose if a branch off its brow is not considered a tine? 2 sides 2 every story ,like hearing the pros and cons. wilodman 22

[j270wsm]

I agree that those antler configurations arent shown. What I was implying was - Depending on the CO and the Judge you might not like the out come. When you go to court you are trying to prove that what you shot was a legal animal. The judge in question might say that the pic in the regs doesnt have sticker points there fore they dont make it legal. We all know how people interpret things differently - as shown in threads reguarding sheep aging.

[Fisher-Dude]

fd, if you shoot a buck with not your usual browtines and your main beam is in the bottom 1/3 of the antler are you really shooting a2 point? also an elk ,if the bottom 2 points connect at their bases are you actually shooting a 5 point?also is it at all possible to shoot a tripalm bull moose if a branch off its brow is not considered a tine? 2 sides 2 every story ,like hearing the pros and cons. wilodman 22

It's only mule deer that have the brow tine issue in the lower 1/3, as brow tines are specifically excluded.

Elk are a non-issue because all tines are included in the 6 point count, regardless of their location, and "brow tine" doesn't even get mentioned in the definition.

Moose tri-palms are defined as 3 points or more on the "brow palm" before the deepest vertex, and "brow tine" doesn't even enter into the definition.

I don't quite understand your first question about deer main beams.

[dana]

Again FD you need to actually pull out the regs and read them. Hmm, what does it say? "Brow Tine - means the first tine projecting forward or upward in the lower 1/3 of the antler of a moose, caribou, elk or deer."

[Fisher-Dude]

Again FD you need to actually pull out the regs and read them. Hmm, what does it say? "Brow Tine - means the first tine projecting forward or upward in the lower 1/3 of the antler of a moose, caribou, elk or deer."

You need to read the Law, not the Synopsis. You're hung up on "tine" in the Synopsis, but the Law states "branch." Throw your Synopsis in the garbage and read the Hunting Regulations of The Wildlife Act, which is the final authority on these issues, and is what a judge will rely on as he nails your ass for an illegal 3 point. :wink:


Read the notice about the Law in the Synopsis:


YOU and THE LAW:


The British Columbia Hunting and Trapping Regulations Synopsis is intended for general information purposes only. Where there is a discrepancy between this Synopsis and the Regulations, the Regulations are the final authority. Regulations are subject to change from time to time, and it is the responsibility of an individual to be informed of the current Regulations.

[Brambles]

I still don't think substituting the word "Branch" for "Tine" changes the argument.

[dana]

You need to read the Law, not the Synopsis. You're hung up on "tine" in the Synopsis, but the Law states "branch." Throw your Synopsis in the garbage and read the Hunting Regulations of The Wildlife Act, which is the final authority on these issues, and is what a judge will rely on as he nails your ass for an illegal 3 point. :wink:


Read the notice about the Law in the Synopsis:


YOU and THE LAW:



The British Columbia Hunting and Trapping Regulations Synopsis is intended for general information purposes only. Where there is a discrepancy between this Synopsis and the Regulations, the Regulations are the final authority. Regulations are subject to change from time to time, and it is the responsibility of an individual to be informed of the current Regulations.


Sooo let me get this straight. You are actually saying the regs are garbage??? Why would the Ministry print them every year if we can't trust them??? Are you saying the Ministry has a conspiracy to hammer law-abiding Joe Hunters because they are following the regs instead of following the Wildlife Act? Hmmm interesting. You would think that someone with your status in the BCWF would be getting right on this and stopping the undo harassment of resident hunters by government officials. It must be the Ministry's love of outfitters who have paid them off in an effort to get the Joe Blow Resident hunter out of the bush eh? I don't know what kind of LA LA Land you live in, but yup, we are suposed to follow the hunting regs, which are indeed the Wildlife Act in layman's terms.

And again where in the Wildlife Act does it say that a browtine with points coming off of it is illegal in 4 point or better season? While you deny ever saying that the examples I posted in this thread weren't legal, in the thread that started this all, you told another hunter that you doubted the legality of any 'cluster' points near the browtine. This is all because you had a discussion with a CO buddy of yours over beers as he looked at a picture of a buck posted on HBC last year? Come on now, the LAW is plain to read. I have spelled it out nice and simple, just as the Regs state, yet you continue to speak your Bull$hit to confuse the Resident Hunters that use this site. You want hunter recruitment, stop messing around and trying to confuse a simple regulation. Look in the mirror and see who really is against the resident hunter.

[knockturnal]

In the lower 1/3rd. Shouldn't that be the kicker? Muleys aren't known for browtines. I think that's an illegal deer.

[Brambles]

In the lower 1/3rd. Shouldn't that be the kicker? Muleys aren't known for browtines. I think that's an illegal deer.


What is the wildlife branches definition of "kicker"? And why would a "kicker" not classify as a "Point" if it meets the definition of a point set out by the wildlife branch?

I see more mule deer with browtines then without.

[MattB]

I don't have time to read through all the posts on this thread. I'd just ask a CO and see what they have to say.

[bigshooter]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/IMG_2962.jpg

[bigshooter]

Sorry for stealing this pic but what if the right hand inner antler was split and the left hand antler was a 3. Obviously a mature deer.
Nice deer by the way.

[bigshooter]

Oops RH for LH LH for RH

[bigshooter]

Oops you get what I mean

[knockturnal]

What is the wildlife branches definition of "kicker"? And why would a "kicker" not classify as a "Point" if it meets the definition of a point set out by the wildlife branch?

I see more mule deer with browtines then without.

Sorry. By kicker I ment the nail in the coffin. Not a kicker point. The regs state that a browtine is in the lower 1/3rd of the antler. So, all that mess around the browtine is in the lower 1/3rd making it a browtine and not considered as a true "point". If that stuff was around the first split, then yes, by all means. But everyone here knows that when they see a muley in 4point season, we are looking for 4 points on one side. Not 3points and a mess of points around the browtine area. Look at the picture. It speeks for itself. If someone told me they shot a 4x3 muley, and they showed me a rack like the op posted, I'd say, " no you didn't. You shot a 3x3 with some junk around his brows." I shot a 4x5 whitetail on Sunday and it has some junk around the browtine of his 4 side. It's at least an inch long but I don't count that as a point. Like the regs state. Lower 1/3rd.

[knockturnal]

And even if you do see more muleys with browtines then without, you wouldn't shoot a 3x3 muley if it had 5inch long browtines would you? It's still not a 4x4.

[dana]

YES it is the kicker and you've got it wrong as you have not read the thread or the regs. The Browtine is the first point (tine, branch) in the lower 3rd. It doesn't say, "all points in the lower third are excluded" now does it? So if you follow the thread and look at the orginal pics, you'll see they are actually more than legal.

[Jed]

Sorry. By kicker I ment the nail in the coffin. Not a kicker point. The regs state that a browtine is in the lower 1/3rd of the antler. So, all that mess around the browtine is in the lower 1/3rd making it a browtine and not considered as a true "point". If that stuff was around the first split, then yes, by all means. But everyone here knows that when they see a muley in 4point season, we are looking for 4 points on one side. Not 3points and a mess of points around the browtine area. Look at the picture. It speeks for itself. If someone told me they shot a 4x3 muley, and they showed me a rack like the op posted, I'd say, " no you didn't. You shot a 3x3 with some junk around his brows." I shot a 4x5 whitetail on Sunday and it has some junk around the browtine of his 4 side. It's at least an inch long but I don't count that as a point. Like the regs state. Lower 1/3rd.

Right on knockturnal I agree, no need to grasp at straws to make a buck legal

[dana]

So you'd pass on all the bucks in the pics I posted? Did you actually read the thread?

[VINDOG]

Wow! This made for some interesting reading!! Good call on starting a thread like this. Makes us stop and actually think about what the law actually states. Good one !!:-D

[Jed]

No need, I know what is a (legit) shooter and what isn't. If a big buck is not a shooter (legit) I have no problem letting him walk. I don't need to go finding loop holes to make a buck legal.

[wildman 22]

knock turnal, aren't the first 2 points on an elk in the lower third of their antler?i guess a 6 point really isnt a 6 point.

[Fisher-Dude]

knock turnal, aren't the first 2 points on an elk in the lower third of their antler?i guess a 6 point really isnt a 6 point.

Doesn't matter. Elk have no brow tine exemption in the counting of points - all points count toward the total. Same with WT deer. Mule deer have the only exemption.

[Brambles]

No need, I know what is a (legit) shooter and what isn't. If a big buck is not a shooter (legit) I have no problem letting him walk. I don't need to go finding loop holes to make a buck legal.


What makes you think its a loophole? Its exactly how the regulations read. What constitutes a "point" and a "browtine" is clearly explained in the hunting regulations. The issue here is there is a difference of opinion, some people want to forgoe the definitions as laid out my the MOE and call a buck with a split point on the bottom third of the mainbeam an illegal buck some people who can actually read and interpret the regulations are making an argument, and a valid one IMO that indeed that buck is a legal animal to harvest.

[j270wsm]

Sorry. By kicker I ment the nail in the coffin. Not a kicker point. The regs state that a browtine is in the lower 1/3rd of the antler. So, all that mess around the browtine is in the lower 1/3rd making it a browtine and not considered as a true "point". If that stuff was around the first split, then yes, by all means. But everyone here knows that when they see a muley in 4point season, we are looking for 4 points on one side. Not 3points and a mess of points around the browtine area. Look at the picture. It speeks for itself. If someone told me they shot a 4x3 muley, and they showed me a rack like the op posted, I'd say, " no you didn't. You shot a 3x3 with some junk around his brows." I shot a 4x5 whitetail on Sunday and it has some junk around the browtine of his 4 side. It's at least an inch long but I don't count that as a point. Like the regs state. Lower 1/3rd.

Brow tine- The FIRST tine pointing forward or upward in the lower 1/3 of the antler.
I have never heard of deer having more than one brow tine on one antler (except in the case of a split brow tine), only one of those points is A brow tine making the antler in question legal.

[wildman 22]

fd browtines are considered in moose ,elk caribou and deer,if you read the regs?

[Fisher-Dude]

What makes you think its a loophole? Its exactly how the regulations read. What constitutes a "point" and a "browtine" is clearly explained in the hunting regulations. The issue here is there is a difference of opinion, some people want to forgoe the definitions as laid out my the MOE and call a buck with a split point on the bottom third of the mainbeam an illegal buck some people who can actually read and interpret the regulations are making an argument, and a valid one IMO that indeed that buck is a legal animal to harvest.

Like your little buddy, you should read the LAW and not the regulations synopsis. The synopsis even TELLS you to do so, and that it's YOUR responsibility to do it.

You're just choosing to believe what you've read in the synopsis, and choosing not to believe the COs who have already said the split brow mule deer is illegal. That's why we ask the COs what is legal, to clarify the synopsis for us...it's their job to know the LAW and to help us out. Why some people are all hot to shoot an illegal deer despite what the COs have told them is beyond me.


I agree with Jed's view that some people are so friggin' desperate to kill a deer that they take chances and push the envelope of the law. It's really not worth ruining the Hunting Experience of tranquility, excitement, and appreciation of the animals and their surroundings to hunt in the "grey area" of the law.

There's always another day, and another deer over the next ridge to fill the freezer.

[Jed]

Someone go out and shoot one of these "legal" bucks .......Dana?......and take it in to the CO and see what they say. If "legal" as Dana describes maybe the MOE should address the issue in more detail in the regs. Definitely a grey area.

[Fisher-Dude]

fd browtines are considered in moose ,elk caribou and deer,if you read the regs?

They are considered brow tines, and are also considered POINTS for moose, elk, WT, caribou. They are NOT considered points for mule deer. Read the definitions.

[Brambles]

Like your little buddy, you should read the LAW and not the regulations synopsis. The synopsis even TELLS you to do so, and that it's YOUR responsibility to do it.

You're just choosing to believe what you've read in the synopsis, and choosing not to believe the COs who have already said the split brow mule deer is illegal. That's why we ask the COs what is legal, to clarify the synopsis for us...it's their job to know the LAW and to help us out. Why some people are all hot to shoot an illegal deer despite what the COs have told them is beyond me.


I agree with Jed's view that some people are so friggin' desperate to kill a deer that they take chances and push the envelope of the law. It's really not worth ruining the Hunting Experience of tranquility, excitement, and appreciation of the animals and their surroundings to hunt in the "grey area" of the law.

There's always another day, and another deer over the next ridge to fill the freezer.


Hey there Pepe, you still haven't shown us the LAW that proves your point.We are going by definitions outlined by the MOE and in publications printed by and distributed for the sole purpose of hunting BY the MOE. There isn't anything in the Wildlife act that contradicts what the synopsis is saying. All we have to go by is your personal conversations with some buddy CO;s over Beers, a sort of shoot from the hip answer that may or may not have any serious thought process behind it. These conversations IMO are hardly a significant quarrum. If you ask 10 CO's a question with any kind of grey area you'll get 10 different answers.

And come on Pat, your my only little buddy:wink:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/Brambles77/Scooter1.jpg

[Brambles]

They are considered brow tines, and are also considered POINTS for moose, elk, WT, caribou. They are NOT considered points for mule deer. Read the definitions.


YES FD the answer is READ THE DEFINITIONS

Start by reading the definition of a browtine and take note in its singular reference. Everything else, as long as it meets the definition of a point......IS A POINT

[dana]

FD,
Still waiting on you to prove me wrong by pulling up the Wildlife Act. You tried yesterday and failed miserably. Try again buddy. I have read it, have you? And have you bothered to invite your CO buddy over and look over your shoulder and read this thread from start to finish. Lets hear what he has to say without a beer or 2 in him. ;)

[j270wsm]

Definition of brow tine as per the Wild Life Act- First lateral branch of an antler of deer, elk, moose or caribou, the projects forward and occurs if the first one third of the antler.

WHERE the hell is the difference. One says first lateral branch, the other says first tine. Does a tine not branch off the main beam.

[Brambles]

Definition of brow tine as per the Wild Life Act- First lateral branch of an antler of deer, elk, moose or caribou, the projects forward and occurs if the first one third of the antler.

WHERE the hell is the difference. One says first lateral branch, the other says first tine. Does a tine not branch off the main beam.


You say Potato, I say Patato....You say Branch, I say Tine.... Same shit different spelling

[happyhunter]

Like your little buddy, you should read the LAW and not the regulations synopsis. The synopsis even TELLS you to do so, and that it's YOUR responsibility to do it.

You're just choosing to believe what you've read in the synopsis, and choosing not to believe the COs who have already said the split brow mule deer is illegal. That's why we ask the COs what is legal, to clarify the synopsis for us...it's their job to know the LAW and to help us out. Why some people are all hot to shoot an illegal deer despite what the COs have told them is beyond me.


I agree with Jed's view that some people are so friggin' desperate to kill a deer that they take chances and push the envelope of the law. It's really not worth ruining the Hunting Experience of tranquility, excitement, and appreciation of the animals and their surroundings to hunt in the "grey area" of the law.

There's always another day, and another deer over the next ridge to fill the freezer.

I cut this straight from the wildlife act which would be the law right?

"brow tine" means the first lateral branch, of an antler of deer, elk, moose or caribou, that projects forward and occurs in the lower one third of the antler;

"tine" or "point" means the branch of an antler which is longer than its breadth and is at least 2.5 cm (1 inch) in length, and for the purpose of determining the length of a tine

(a) the breadth of the tine is measured (if extending from a palmation of an antler, then in the plane of the palm) at a location at least 2.5 cm (1 inch) from the tip of the tine, and
(b) the length of the tine is measured from its tip end, following the midline of the profile of the tine, and following the natural curvature of the tine, to the midpoint of the straight line along which the breadth is measured;

Now a muley must have 4 points in the 4 point season excluding a brow tine right? K and then a brow tine = first lateral branch (see above). K and a point is a branch in the antler. So any muley with 4 branches (points) plus a lateral branch in the lower 1/3 = legal buck. So that buck with the two brow tines side by side? One ain't a brow tine. First lateral branch = brow tine, second branch? Just a branch, just a point, add em to the 3 on top what do you got?

[Fisher-Dude]

Hey there Pepe, you still haven't shown us the LAW that proves your point.We are going by definitions outlined by the MOE and in publications printed by and distributed for the sole purpose of hunting BY the MOE. There isn't anything in the Wildlife act that contradicts what the synopsis is saying. All we have to go by is your personal conversations with some buddy CO;s over Beers, a sort of shoot from the hip answer that may or may not have any serious thought process behind it. These conversations IMO are hardly a significant quarrum. If you ask 10 CO's a question with any kind of grey area you'll get 10 different answers.

And come on Pat, your my only little buddy:wink:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/Brambles77/Scooter1.jpg

Aww thanks Jeff, here I thought Conky was your little buddy.

http://www.showcase.ca/media/images/shows/trailer-park-boys/episodes/trailer-park-boys_s4_ep05.jpg


The convo with the COs was in their office, with the picture that jml posted of the split brow 3 point. They spoke about the LAW as it's written, and the "spirit and intent" of the 4 point regulation, which is what judges apply in court if there's a pissing match over grey areas.

Lots of Perry Mason wannabes get shocked in court when judges apply "spirit and intent" rulings. Those who try to slice the law thinly to suit their desires, instead of just holding out and shooting what we all know is a legal 4 point, are the ones who get pounded in court by "spirit and intent" rulings.

[wildman 22]

fd can you show me what u mean in the definitions? thanx.

[knockturnal]

So, tell us then brambles, if you were out hunting, and saw a 3x3 muley with a few stickers on one of the browtines, assuming that they are over an inch, you would stuff one in the boiler room and tell the world that it's a "Legal" 4x3?? Everyone on this forum knows what a real 4x4 muley looks like. Everyone on here also knows that browtines don't count on muleys. Doesn't matter if there are one or 2 or 7 or 12. Everyone knows!!!! If you are sitting there trying to justify to yourself that only the first browtine counts as a browtine and everything else afterthat is a point.... Give your head a shake man!!!

[j270wsm]

Aww thanks Jeff, here I thought Conky was your little buddy.

http://www.showcase.ca/media/images/shows/trailer-park-boys/episodes/trailer-park-boys_s4_ep05.jpg


The convo with the COs was in their office, with the picture that jml posted of the split brow 3 point. They spoke about the LAW as it's written, and the "spirit and intent" of the 4 point regulation, which is what judges apply in court if there's a pissing match over grey areas.

Lots of Perry Mason wannabes get shocked in court when judges apply "spirit and intent" rulings. Those who try to slice the law thinly to suit their desires, instead of just holding out and shooting what we all know is a legal 4 point, are the ones who get pounded in court by "spirit and intent" rulings.

Sorry, dont know how to delete pics when quoting.

your post was what I had said in a post ealier, you just explained it better

but going by both the wild life act and the hunting regs, that deer is still legal in my eyes.

[wildman 22]

knockturnal, can you show me the browtine only is for muley's thanx.

[Brambles]

So, tell us then brambles, if you were out hunting, and saw a 3x3 muley with a few stickers on one of the browtines, assuming that they are over an inch, you would stuff one in the boiler room and tell the world that it's a "Legal" 4x3?? Everyone on this forum knows what a real 4x4 muley looks like. Everyone on here also knows that browtines don't count on muleys. Doesn't matter if there are one or 2 or 7 or 12. Everyone knows!!!! If you are sitting there trying to justify to yourself that only the first browtine counts as a browtine and everything else afterthat is a point.... Give your head a shake man!!!


We'll I wouldn't necessarily shoot it because I'm after bigger deer but YAH thats exactly what WE are saying. There is nothing in the regulations that say all the points have to by in a Typical formation. So a 3x3 mainframe with an extra point protruding from the animals Rack ( not including the browtine of course) will be a 4x3, why is this so hard to accept.

How many 5x5 mainframe elk have been shot because they've had a sticker point somewhere on their rack that puts them over the magical 6.

You need to stop shooting from hip and read the Regulations.. The browtine is the FIRST Tine on the lower 1/3. That is singular, therefore everything else counts as a point if it meets the definition.

[pnbrock]

this pissing contest ever going to end?

[knockturnal]

Look on page 5 of the regs. Then look on page 3 and read what it says about browtines being on the lower 1/3rd of the antler. I don't understand why people are arguing this point. Deep down inside, we all know what a 4 point mulie looks like. I guess some people enjoy bending the rules. Again, it comes down to ethics of the hunter. And my so-called "ethics" tell me that is not a legal buck. I'll say it again. Every hunter that hunts in 4point season looks for 4 points on one side. Not 3 points and shit piled in around his browtines. If you shoot a buck like that, you walk up to it thinking that it had more legal points on the upper then you thought. Then you sit there and have a personal debate on what you just did. An ethical hunter would dress it out, cut your tag, take it down to the CO office and admit to them that you made a mistake and hopefully they will be lenient with you. I know this because it happened to a friend of mine a few years back. He took it down to the office and the CO told him "well, now you know what's legal and what isn't" he got to keep the deer and it didn't rot out in the bush. I commended his actions and he's a better hunter because of that experience.

[Brambles]

Aww thanks Jeff, here I thought Conky was your little buddy.

Lots of Perry Mason wannabes get shocked in court when judges apply "spirit and intent" rulings. Those who try to slice the law thinly to suit their desires, instead of just holding out and shooting what we all know is a legal 4 point, are the ones who get pounded in court by "spirit and intent" rulings.


Hey scooter, if you want to get down to the "spirit and intent" of the law.... The spirit and intent is to harvest mature mule deer....

So if a guy see's a 2 year old 4 point and a 7 year old knarly 3 point the only way the spirit and intent of the law would be met would be to shoot the 3 point. If your gonna ignore the letter of the law on the split browtine issue to maintain the spirit of the law then you might as well ignore the letter of the law that says 4 point season. Cause all the judge cares about is the "Spirit and Intent"

The "spirit and intent" of the law isn't always known by your average person. Especially in hunting regulations, biologist meet behind closed doors and hash out what they believe needs to happend for goals to be met. The true story not being told, just the plan on how to get there, in the form of antler restrictions and season open and close dates etc etc.

In a case like this the judges will rule on "What would and average person do"... An average person would follow the rules laid out before him. IE the hunting regulations.

[Brambles]

Look on page 5 of the regs. Then look on page 3 and read what it says about browtines being on the lower 1/3rd of the antler. I don't understand why people are arguing this point. Deep down inside, we all know what a 4 point mulie looks like. I guess some people enjoy bending the rules. Again, it comes down to ethics of the hunter. And my so-called "ethics" tell me that is not a legal buck. I'll say it again. Every hunter that hunts in 4point season looks for 4 points on one side. Not 3 points and shit piled in around his browtines. If you shoot a buck like that, you walk up to it thinking that it had more legal points on the upper then you thought. Then you sit there and have a personal debate on what you just did. An ethical hunter would dress it out, cut your tag, take it down to the CO office and admit to them that you made a mistake and hopefully they will be lenient with you. I know this because it happened to a friend of mine a few years back. He took it down to the office and the CO told him "well, now you know what's legal and what isn't" he got to keep the deer and it didn't rot out in the bush. I commended his actions and he's a better hunter because of that experience.


I think your having a hard time reading, the BROWTINE, (singular), is the FIRST, (another singular reference) tine on the lower 1/3 of the antler. Thats two singular references.

Irregardless of what YOU think a legal buck looks like, it IS a legal buck, if you choose NOT to shoot it that is your decision.

Why do people think that any other point that grows on the lower 1/3 is ALSO a browtine, cause its only the first one.

[knockturnal]

I agree with you on that Brambles. Aging deer in the field isn't the easiest thing to do. Of course taking the older deer out of the heard would be the best thing to do, but if it's only a 3x3, he's walking. As long as it's 4point season. Easiest way to solve this debate. Tie it to a tree and come back during anybuck!!

[knockturnal]

That post was for the one before you referring to mine. All this is happening because there is no s on the word tine. In the end, it all comes down to the individual. If you need to come up with excuses on why it's legal, you are walking a fine grey line.

[dana]

Look on page 5 of the regs. Then look on page 3 and read what it says about browtines being on the lower 1/3rd of the antler. I don't understand why people are arguing this point. Deep down inside, we all know what a 4 point mulie looks like. I guess some people enjoy bending the rules. Again, it comes down to ethics of the hunter. And my so-called "ethics" tell me that is not a legal buck. I'll say it again. Every hunter that hunts in 4point season looks for 4 points on one side. Not 3 points and shit piled in around his browtines. If you shoot a buck like that, you walk up to it thinking that it had more legal points on the upper then you thought. Then you sit there and have a personal debate on what you just did. An ethical hunter would dress it out, cut your tag, take it down to the CO office and admit to them that you made a mistake and hopefully they will be lenient with you. I know this because it happened to a friend of mine a few years back. He took it down to the office and the CO told him "well, now you know what's legal and what isn't" he got to keep the deer and it didn't rot out in the bush. I commended his actions and he's a better hunter because of that experience.

If the hunter got to keep his illegal buck then there is indeed something very wrong with the CO service.

You shoot an illegal buck by accident, you call the CO immediately. The CO will tell you what he or she wants done with the animal. If they have the time, they will meet you at the killsite and interview you and if your story is legit, you'll have your tag cut, you'll get a fine in the form of a "speeding ticket" which goes directly into the HCTF. The CO will take the animal to the local butcher where it will be processed and given to a needy family. You'll probably be thanked by the CO for doing the right thing and calling them. They will probably suggest you get better optics to limit any mistakes in point counts in the future.

If you are following the rules, and you are sure of your point count, you won't have any issues. The rules are pretty darn simple and yet it seems too many people can't read the regs or even the Wildlife Act. (Still waiting FD for your Wildlife Act proof.)

[3kills]

I know this because it happened to a friend of mine a few years back. He took it down to the office and the CO told him "well, now you know what's legal and what isn't" he got to keep the deer and it didn't rot out in the bush. I commended his actions and he's a better hunter because of that experience.

it probably had a 1 inch sticker somewhere that made it legal and thats why the co told him he knows whats legal now cuz it was legal and thats why he got to keep it. there is no way in hell a co will let u keep and illegal kill

[peashooter]

soooooooo, oct 1 i can shoot a spike mule deer. if you dont count brow tines, and the only point or tine is a brow tine. is he still legal. :confused::confused:

[Fisher-Dude]

soooooooo, oct 1 i can shoot a spike mule deer. if you dont count brow tines, and the only point or tine is a brow tine. is he still legal. :confused::confused:

He's a doe! :mrgreen:

[mark]

soooooooo, oct 1 i can shoot a spike mule deer. if you dont count brow tines, and the only point or tine is a brow tine. is he still legal. :confused::confused:

Antlered animal is defined as any visible bone! No minimum length!!! No mention of the word tine or point!

[Jelvis]

Any bone showing at all .. in October .. no furry bumps but exposed bone .. you rang? .. BANG!