4 point clarification

[Cyrus]

today we lucked out and ended up running into 9 bucks!! A few big ones that were just short of 4 points.... gotta be a record for me! My dad ended up with a 4pt this evening which was accompanied by yet another 3 point....Just wondering, we saw a very, very large 3 point. It had the usual brow tines but had another point just above the brow tine. It almost looked like a point as it sticking out the side as opposed to vertical. Does this count as a 4th point? We passed on it as the regs were not clear on this issue. Can a deer have 2 brow tines? Any clarification before tomorrow morning appreciated.....

[leadpillproductions]

i say shoot away

[Steeleco]

Mule deer can have more than one brow time. The little deer my daughter got just last week has the beginnings of two on each side.

As to the deer you saw, without a picture it's hard to say if it's legal, but if your not sure, best bet is to get him in Oct!!!

[Fisher-Dude]

Split brow tines do not qualify for "4th point" status. A second, totally independent point further up the main beam does qualify. Per the definition, "brow tine" means the first tine projecting forward or upward in the lower 1/3 of the antler.

Just be careful that the "first" brow tine does indeed qualify under the definition of a "point", because if it less than 1" long, it wouldn't, and this second point would then be considered the brow tine and it wouldn't make 4 point status.

Usually the best thing to do with these "grey area" bucks is to let them walk away.

[300wsm]

Split brow tines do not qualify for "4th point" status. A second, totally independent point further up the main beam does qualify. Per the definition, "brow tine" means the first tine projecting forward or upward in the lower 1/3 of the antler.

Just be careful that the "first" brow tine does indeed qualify under the definition of a "point", because if it less than 1" long, it wouldn't, and this second point would then be considered the brow tine and it wouldn't make 4 point status.

Usually the best thing to do with these "grey area" bucks is to let them walk away.

i am not sure that i read the regs the same as you... my understanding is that if it is longer than it is wide and it is at least 2.5cm it does not matter if it is a branch off of another tine. both of the times must be at least 2.5cm but if they are then shoot away hunter. in the case of a mulie you do not count the brown tine but a branch from the brow tine would mean that the lower of the two would be the brow tine and any branch off of that would be a point towards the four.

respectfully my opinion
300wsm

[SR80]

Any pics of the 4 point your dad got?

[pnbrock]

its only a deer wouldnt take a chance on a marginal ,i would hold out as you did besides you may find a bigger buck now.

[curt]

Mule deer (points) must come off the main beam, as per definition. Mule deer have bifurcated antlers meaning "branched" all points for legal definition must come off that branch somewhere. Whitetail are slightly different brow tines count for them.
CM

[Fisher-Dude]

i am not sure that i read the regs the same as you... my understanding is that if it is longer than it is wide and it is at least 2.5cm it does not matter if it is a branch off of another tine. both of the times must be at least 2.5cm but if they are then shoot away hunter. in the case of a mulie you do not count the brown tine but a branch from the brow tine would mean that the lower of the two would be the brow tine and any branch off of that would be a point towards the four.

respectfully my opinion
300wsm

The last time this question of split brows came up, I asked the CO Service about this. They said no go on the split brow tine, as the singular base forms "the first point in the lower 1/3 of the antler" definition. They told me the deer in question would be considered an illegal 3 point.

I wouldn't be risking a cluster-f by shooting one, and end up in front of a judge. I can't say I've ever seen a mulie with a split brow anyway, so for me it's basically a non-issue.

[guest]

Hard to say with out seeing it but heres the way I understand it.

If there are 4 pts. on one side above the brow pt. and single to the brow pt. fire away. Be it typical or non typical , fire away ! see the definition of a point in the regs though to be certain of what defines a point for measurement.

Split brows do not count. They would be considered the brow point if in one mass.

CT

[deer nut]

Brow tines are not counted on mule deer, split or not. They only count on on whitetails. Is that not correct?

[Cyrus]

The main brow tine was about an inch long at least. the second tine was about 3-4 inches above the main brow tine but not anywhere near the cluster of the other points....I guess I should just leave it alone until Oct 1 as I don't want to eat poop. I chose not to shoot, even after I read the regs while looking at this deer for about 10 minutes!....very wide and high antlers in any event. Still a little confused but I don't want to make a mistake......story and pics on the 4 point and the rest of the weekend to follow....gotta get back out there in an hour or so!!!

[dana]

Yet another example of some in the ministry not having a clue. I have seen many a buck with split eyeguards and palms and fingers that are all considered adnormal points and do indeed count in the fourpoint count. Heck I've got a shed that has 18 scorable points on it with 13 of which occuring below the G1 (browtine). The 13 points range from 1 to 5 inches length. If this buck just happened to not have a G3 or G4 would that make him illegal during the 4 point or better season? If you think it needs the typical 4 point (MB+G2+G3+G4) you are sadly mistaken.
So to answer your question, yes the deer you saw was legal.

[700bdl]

That is a shooter.

[steel_ram]

A non-typical would be an exception. Pretty clear by the pic provided in the regs on what they want you to consider a 4 pt. So why push your luck? It's just a deer.

[dana]

Here's what the regs state,
"Mule Deer-Four Point or Greater Buck- means any buck having at least four tines, excluding the brow tine, on one antler."

"Brow Tine- means the first tine projecting forward or upward in the lower 1/3 of the antler of a moose, caribou, elk or deer"

"Tine or Point- means a branch of an antler which is longer than its breadth and is at least 2.5 cm in length."

So, according to the regs, the first point in the lower 1/3 of the antler is the browtine. This could be the G1 (B&C accepted) or it could be a 2.5 cm tine below the G1. I've killed numerous bucks with 1 inch or greater points coming off the burr. According to the regs, if a buck had points like that, the first one would be the browtine.
Now for the sake of split eyeguards as we call them, the regs only says, 'excluding the browtine'. It doesn't say excluding the browtines, only the browtine (singular). If there is a point longer than 2.5 cms coming off the browtine, it is a point according to the definition, not a browtine. Therefore it is countable in the 4 point count is it not?
As for the drawings they show, they are only an example, not the only option. I once ran into a hunter that had seen a 2x1 moose during the spike/fork season. He had passed on it. Why? In the 4 drawings of Spike/Fork moose, a 2x1 was not showing, so therefore it must be illegal right? So back to the mule deer drawings, suppose the 3 point had a big ol dropper coming off his right antler, but he still was exactly the same in 3 point mainframe structure, would that be legal? Of course it would. I don't think you'd find a CO in the province to disagree with ya. What's the difference with that than any tine 2.5cms or bigger excluding the first point in the lower 1/3 of the antler?

[steel_ram]

Personally I'd rather see all the mature "3 points" get taken out of the genetic pool. Technically I understand what your saying, but being that I travel to hunt, and often go through game checks. I don't want to argue the point or have to go to the expense of proving a point in court to overturn a ticket I have already recieved. Not worth it for a mediocre deer.

[dana]

That goes back to what I was saying in the evidence of sex thread, hunters are pussies when it comes to the COs. Seriously how hard is it to have a copy of the regs in the truck and read them exactly what I just posted up. No ands ifs or buts about it. Put these uneducated COs in their place. Hunters seem like whipped dogs ready to roll over and piss themselves everytime they see a CO. CO's, like any top dog, feed on the intimidation and fear and thus the reasons there are so many of these so-called stories of "I had a CO tell me once, so it must be true" bull$hit that you see posted in threads like this one. By standing up for yourself and showing confidence that you indeed know what you are talking about, you will find the COs will actually lay off and give ya the benifit of the doubt. Show fear and a lack of confidence and you will probably end up coming home with a ticket and you will think you are somehow a bad hunter with the likes of a notorious poacher.

[dana]

Several years ago I was hunting a local area and saw some ravens fly up in a cutblock about 100 metres from the road. I went up to see what the ravens were on and it was a 3 point muley that had been shot and left. The sad thing about it, it was a totally legal 4 point. It had a 2-3 inch point off the base and a G1 with a 3 point frame. Because of lack of confidence, what was probably an over excited mistake became a serious crime by the hunter walking away. And yet had that hunter had of looked at the rack and the regs, he would have seen he had indeed just killed a legal buck. Sad ain't it?

[JeremyCarrano302]

you only count the brow tines for whitetails now not mulies

[steel_ram]

Sad but true. But if you "correct" Mr. CO, then accompanying Mr. RCMP or Motor Vehicles guy may take a really close look at that vehicle, after of course they've emptied the contents of your vehicle out on the shoulder of the hwy. There's always something, and if not, your now going to have to race to catch the last ferry. Again, not worth a grey-area deer.

I admire your confidence.

[Cyrus]

I guess a bit of a non issue now as I didn't see him again......I think I will make a call on it....probably never see one like it again anyway......

[Jelvis]

Anybuck October means any buck with any bone showing .. a spike, two point or three/four in Any Buck October rover
Jel .. eating clover, if you see tine start throwing lead.

[Cyrus]

I could see a lot of 3 points being shot and left in the bush by people who shoot first and count points after......

[300wsm]

i thought this was going to be a short answer thread and not go very far but wow. i definately keep regs at all times when hunting. i read em all the time...every year. know your stuff or at least where to find it. i say this not for the grey area deer that most of us would pass on most of the time but for exactly what dana is talking about. although i have never once had a bad experience with a CO. i think they are over worked and underpaid and i would hate to see that their work conditions are pushing out the good ones and bringing in a new batch of who knows what.

back to the point of the thread though it was a shooter and good on you for passing...no shame in that and who needs the headache. i will say one thing to add to the conversation. the regs are supposed to be written in a way to avoid confusion and keep it simple for the hunter. can you imagine being all pumped up cuz your deer is in your scope and counting tines. now we have to determine if it is a typical or non typical and if that other tine is a branch off the brow. this is exactly what the regs are trying to avoid when they say it has to be a 4point on one side and not both. i feel bad for the guy who shot the legal non typical but do not condone his leaving it there. i understand why he did but he must have felt like crap. that would be an honest mistake and i would hate to have to call but i would trust that most CO's would be decent bout it.

300wsm

[dana]

Sad but true. But if you "correct" Mr. CO, then accompanying Mr. RCMP or Motor Vehicles guy may take a really close look at that vehicle, after of course they've emptied the contents of your vehicle out on the shoulder of the hwy. There's always something, and if not, your now going to have to race to catch the last ferry. Again, not worth a grey-area deer.

I admire your confidence.

They can dump the contents of my vehicle anytime they want, I ain't got nothing to hide. And the DOT guys do enough BIG BLITZ's here that I think I can survive them too. ;)

Fact is, I wouldn't take anyone's word for it except the regs. You ask a question on HBC and you'll get a hundred different answers with many of them starting with, "I talked to a CO once."
Go back to the regs as that is all we as hunters have to follow. And in them it is black and white what a legal 4 point is. There are no grey areas as some have stated. The definations are clear. No where does it say, if the eyeguard splits multiple times, none of those points count as points. That is only what people have "heard" not what is stated in the regs. Same as the evidence of sex thread. I don't care that someone received some email from some ministry official saying the head is not part of the carcus. It doesn't state that in the regs, so I will go with what the regs say. It boils down to being confident in my knowledge of the regs and being able to easily defend myself. If you can't defend yourself because you let too many of the doubts from the "I heard" crowd come into your brain, you might as well give up hunting altogether.

When I get some time I'll take some pics of countless sheds in my shed pile to illustrate the various different antler configurations I have alluded too.

[Cyrus]

It says in the regs that you will be dealt with differently if you turn yourself in....I know someone who screwed up on an Elk, turned himself in and received the max amount of fines.....I guess its no wonder why so many illegally shot animals get left for the crows.....but I guess that is why it helps to get it right before you shoot....I would feel like garbage if I killed a buck that was not legal....