Good News: Thompson appeal denied

[GoatGuy]

Art Thompson filed an environmental appeal quite some time ago to have quota lifted (ie unlimited harvest) or residents put on limited entry hunting in his area for Stone sheep.

GOABC has been pushing this for some time.

The BCWF represented resident hunters.

Decision came out yesterday and the appeal was dismissed.

Nice to get a bit of good news every once in a while.

[palmer]

Which MU's we talking about here......

[luckynuts]

4 years ago straight up and lied to me and my hunting partner. They win themselves no favors, matter a fact I think they kinda dug themselves a hole. Residents along with inspirations from the likes of BCrams, SSS, bigwhitey's and many others we are more likely to hunt harder and deeper into their G.O. territories.

W.

[palmer]

4 years ago straight up and lied to me and my hunting partner. They win themselves no favors, matter a fact I think they kinda dug themselves a hole. Residents along with inspirations from the likes of BCrams, SSS, bigwhitey's and many others we are more likely to hunt harder and deeper into their G.O. territories.

W.
So tell us where it is so we can do that.......

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Great work BCWF!!:cool:

SSS

[budismyhorse]

GG, please post any articles or info regardin this decision when it becomes available......I'd like to know why....and if it is precident setting.

[325]

Good to hear...now if we can only get the 90% of BC hunters who are not members of BCWF to join...we could really do something!

[Deadshot]

straight up and lied to me and my hunting partner.

W.
That has got to be the biggest chapter in their manual.
The thing is, they're not even good at it.
Had the youngest one yet (maybe 20), spewing BS at me right from the get-go.

[stoneslinger]

So tell us where it is so we can do that.......

http://www.goabc.org/outfitters/209/gundahoo-river-outfitters-inc.aspx

See the Stone's sheep hunting location thread.:-D

Here is the territory map:

http://archive.ilmb.gov.bc.ca/cis/psupport/env_maps/GOA_Maps/Ansi-D_Landscape_peace.pdf

[Stone Sheep Steve]

That has got to be the biggest chapter in their manual.
The thing is, they're not even good at it.
Had the youngest one yet (maybe 20), spewing BS at me right from the get-go.


I'm pretty sure they have a Guide/outfitter handbook.

SSS

[stoneslinger]

It is part of the formal training. Local guy up here is called "Walking Eagle". So full of crap he can't fly.

[palmer]

http://www.goabc.org/outfitters/209/gundahoo-river-outfitters-inc.aspx

See the Stone's sheep hunting location thread.:-D

Here is the territory map:

http://archive.ilmb.gov.bc.ca/cis/psupport/env_maps/GOA_Maps/Ansi-D_Landscape_peace.pdf

Thanks: We already trump all over his territory killing Sheep, Moose and caribou....but can see we will have to kill more now....just to keep everybody happy...

[Stone Sheep Steve]

This would be the second major victory for residents involving Stone's Sheep in the last two yrs. Darwin Cary appealed his reduction in quota and lost.

http://www.eab.gov.bc.ca/wildlife/2007wil002a.pdf

SSS

[Deadshot]

IIRC, he never had that sheep gallery available. Very impressive!
Isn't he in at the 40K mark for a ram?

[Coming_out_heavy.]

So tell us where it is so we can do that.......


Id start at Drinkalls area if I were you, then hunt my way into SMS.

Trail might get crowded when you run into me and my buds.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Id start at Drinkalls area if I were you, then hunt my way into SMS.

Trail might get crowded when you run into me and my buds.


There's a reason why Drinkall won't post sheep pics on his website:wink:.


So is Art picking up the legal costs for the BCWF?? Seems like a huge waste of time and resources or is that part of his plan?

SSS

[GoatGuy]

There are no legal costs.

The appelant submits the appeal to the EAB, the respondent is MoE and other groups/organizations to file for what is a form of intervenor status.

Often g/os will have lawyers hired, MoE will as well and the BCWF does it as a voluntary form.

It's costs g/os $25 to appeal quota.

The EAB and quota appeal is for 'commercial operators' only - there is no ability for 'residents' to appeal quota.

In the wildlife act rewrite a couple years ago one of the suggestions from MoE was to remove g/os ability to appeal quota as it is extremely costly and residents do not have the same mechanism. That recommendation was not adopted by upper levels of government (elected) and we've had dozens of appeals as the allocation policy has started to kick in - taxpayers are paying for that as the hearings can be a week or more in length with lawyers and MoE staff, also BCWF volunteers on their own time, not to mention the Environmental Appeal Board.

The good news is the Allocation Policy has stood the test so far.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

There are no legal costs.

The appelant submits the appeal to the EAB, the respondent is MoE and other groups/organizations to file for what is a form of intervenor status.

Often g/os will have lawyers hired, MoE will as well and the BCWF does it as a voluntary form.

It's costs g/os $25 to appeal quota.

The EAB and quota appeal is for 'commercial operators' only - there is no ability for 'residents' to appeal quota.

In the wildlife act rewrite a couple years ago one of the suggestions from MoE was to remove g/os ability to appeal quota as it is extremely costly and residents do not have the same mechanism. That recommendation was not adopted by upper levels of government (elected) and we've had dozens of appeals as the allocation policy has started to kick in - taxpayers are paying for that as the hearings can be a week or more in length with lawyers and MoE staff, also BCWF volunteers on their own time, not to mention the Environmental Appeal Board.

The good news is the Allocation Policy has stood the test so far.

So not a big blow to the BCWF...that's good news ......but as taxpayers of this province we should be pi$$ed and should be writing our MLAs about this waste of money!!:evil: Art's not even a resident of this province.

Thanks for the info!

SSS

[bigwhiteys]

Trail might get crowded when you run into me and my buds.

You can thank Willy and my Grandpa for all the trails :)


Art's not even a resident of this province.

I believe he meets the residency requirements to legally hunt here.

Carl

[luckynuts]

So not a big blow to the BCWF...that's good news ......but as taxpayers of this province we should be pi$$ed and should be writing our MLAs about this waste of money!!:evil: Art's not even a resident of this province.

Thanks for the info!

SSS

No kidding SSS! I think Art's area needs some new signs clearly stating the park it's boundaries and a new and improved trail skirting around his quarter section:wink: A new parking lot big enough to park more than a few truck and horse trailer's too:-D Curios to if these outfit's have to pay eco fees for flying the planes into the back country like Urs and some of the other tour operators do? Nickel and dimes hurt you where you least expect it.

W.

[BCrams]

There's a reason why Drinkall won't post sheep pics on his website:wink:.

SSS

Drinkal is a smart man. Not posting pictures is a great clue to would be sheep hunters.......its hard for an outfitter to post up 40" plus rams and book rams when you don't want attention drawn to the area. A tactic that could backfire on him. :mrgreen:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I believe he meets the residency requirements to legally hunt here.

Carl

Oops. Made the assuption that he lived in Alta as the addresse on his website was Cochrane.
You would think I'd know better than to make ASSumptins like that:wink:.

Hope he pays lots of tax:wink:.

SSS

[muzzy]

A tactic that could backfire on him. :mrgreen:


Ever been up the Toad and seen a pretty little airplane flying around most mornings and evenings?:evil:

[anvilmounguide]

You guys are pretty harsh towards Guide Outfitters! not all of them are bad. You guys should know better. Don't us hunters get into enough trouble because of a few bad apples?? Are you guys going to tell me that the hunters that drove past our range and shot one of our horses and then took off in a hurry are like every other hunter out there?

I'm one of those Guide outfitters and I have helped out every resident hunter i have ever met. I have never asked a dime from any of them. i have no reason to "lie" to them. They have just as much right as I do to hunt out there, but they should should show me just as much respect. I earn a living like anyone else and do it by doing a thing that i love to do. i abide by every rule that you do. Don't forget I am a resident hunter too if I want a deer for my family i have to work just as hard as you do to get one. I don't get free licences or tags.

maybe some of those guide outfitters are like that because they get so much heat from the rest of you?

all i am saying is don't compare every guide to the next we are not all bad.

Steven

[SHAKER]

You guys are pretty harsh towards Guide Outfitters! not all of them are bad. You guys should know better. Don't us hunters get into enough trouble because of a few bad apples?? Are you guys going to tell me that the hunters that drove past our range and shot one of our horses and then took off in a hurry are like every other hunter out there?

I'm one of those Guide outfitters and I have helped out every resident hunter i have ever met. I have never asked a dime from any of them. i have no reason to "lie" to them. They have just as much right as I do to hunt out there, but they should should show me just as much respect. I earn a living like anyone else and do it by doing a thing that i love to do. i abide by every rule that you do. Don't forget I am a resident hunter too if I want a deer for my family i have to work just as hard as you do to get one. I don't get free licences or tags.

maybe some of those guide outfitters are like that because they get so much heat from the rest of you?

all i am saying is don't compare every guide to the next we are not all bad.

Steven


Welcom new guy......... Not all of them are bad, just greedy. It's all about the $$$. Ooops.... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Fisher-Dude]

all i am saying is don't compare every guide to the next we are not all bad.

Steven

Since the GOABC put out the economic viability paper, and basically lobbied to kill off resident hunters' opportunities, things have gone for a complete shitter between residents and GOs. GOABC threw the first punch, and residents aren't willing to forget about that. Look to the actions of your own organization first to see why the backlash from resident hunters is so strong. Ellis pissed off a WHOLE bunch of people.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

You guys are pretty harsh towards Guide Outfitters! not all of them are bad. You guys should know better. Don't us hunters get into enough trouble because of a few bad apples?? Are you guys going to tell me that the hunters that drove past our range and shot one of our horses and then took off in a hurry are like every other hunter out there?

I'm one of those Guide outfitters and I have helped out every resident hunter i have ever met. I have never asked a dime from any of them. i have no reason to "lie" to them. They have just as much right as I do to hunt out there, but they should should show me just as much respect. I earn a living like anyone else and do it by doing a thing that i love to do. i abide by every rule that you do. Don't forget I am a resident hunter too if I want a deer for my family i have to work just as hard as you do to get one. I don't get free licences or tags.

maybe some of those guide outfitters are like that because they get so much heat from the rest of you?

all i am saying is don't compare every guide to the next we are not all bad.

Steven

First, welcome to the site!

Do you have a quota for sheep?? If you do and you're as nice as you say you are towards resident hunters, you're bucking the trend for GO's. We "generally" don't pre-judge GO's but base our opinions on what we and our friends/ acquaintances have experienced. The subject of this thread has a history of not treating residents very well.....and very recently.

SSS

[stoneslinger]

Does anyone know if Thompson has ever hired a BC resident as guide or if he purchases his supplies in B.C.?
I am also curious if the hunts are billed from a BC based business that must collect and remit HST?

[6616]

GG, please post any articles or info regardin this decision when it becomes available......I'd like to know why....and if it is precident setting.

See e-mail Jeff.

[bridger]

thompson's area covers the some of the toad, the rabbitt, and gundahoo rivers, as well as muncho lake. he actually bought two areas and the moe combined them for him. he doesn't have a reputation of being resident hunter friendly and never has been a willing participant in the allocation process. I am of the opinion that this was a test case fostered by the goabc in an attempt to either remove quota's or have residents put on leh. good that the good guys won this one.

[The Hermit]

I love this site... learn so much here everyday!

[bridger]

an interesting side issue with thompson is that the first guiding area he bought was at muncho lake. the quota was five rams. it was for a while a good place for residents to get a ram as well. fairly easy access and some rams around. thompson was always asking for an increase in quota which was denied repeatedly. he then bought the area adjoining it with a larger quota. the moe then combined his areas and he has been taking a lot more than five rams from his old area, and is now more competition for residents in the area. so much for conservation being the corner stone of an outfitters management plan.

[bridger]

Since the GOABC put out the economic viability paper, and basically lobbied to kill off resident hunters' opportunities, things have gone for a complete shitter between residents and GOs. GOABC threw the first punch, and residents aren't willing to forget about that. Look to the actions of your own organization first to see why the backlash from resident hunters is so strong. Ellis pissed off a WHOLE bunch of people.

I agree. it is difficult to respect an organization that is tryiing to put you on the sidelines.

[Deaddog]

hopefully goabc will see that they will get nowhere pushing for leh for res or no quota for them and drop the whole thing..looks like the gov't will continue to stick to the agreed upon allocation....lets hope so

[bigwhiteys]

an interesting side issue with thompson is that the first guiding area he bought was at muncho lake. the quota was five rams. it was for a while a good place for residents to get a ram as well. fairly easy access and some rams around. thompson was always asking for an increase in quota which was denied repeatedly. he then bought the area adjoining it with a larger quota. the moe then combined his areas and he has been taking a lot more than five rams from his old area, and is now more competition for residents in the area. so much for conservation being the corner stone of an outfitters management plan.
His quotas are 6 and 4 for a total of 10 rams. (4 in his original area)

Carl

[luckynuts]

You guys are pretty harsh towards Guide Outfitters! not all of them are bad. You guys should know better. Don't us hunters get into enough trouble because of a few bad apples?? Are you guys going to tell me that the hunters that drove past our range and shot one of our horses and then took off in a hurry are like every other hunter out there?

I'm one of those Guide outfitters and I have helped out every resident hunter i have ever met. I have never asked a dime from any of them. i have no reason to "lie" to them. They have just as much right as I do to hunt out there, but they should should show me just as much respect. I earn a living like anyone else and do it by doing a thing that i love to do. i abide by every rule that you do. Don't forget I am a resident hunter too if I want a deer for my family i have to work just as hard as you do to get one. I don't get free licences or tags.

maybe some of those guide outfitters are like that because they get so much heat from the rest of you?

all i am saying is don't compare every guide to the next we are not all bad.

Steven

Steven you are so right. Though when you run into issues time and time again You develop thick skin and a knack to not trust what they say. 3 /5 times in the mountains 3 times bitten. Buzzed once on a ram we were pretty darn sure was full curl. Lied to about access to a public trail (though should have did a bit more homework) Last years trip fly-in made an arrangement with the guide/owner he had 2 bowhunters in from california we agreed we would stay to the left of one valley and hunt that range he wanted the other. We had a huge palmated bull caribou when 4 shots from a 338 with a zeiis monted on it scared the bull and his harem away his reply the wrangler missed a young bull moose for camp meat. My hunting partner took his bull, next day they were hunting our side. When the GOBC wants to put residents of BC on LEH and reduce our odds F*** Them.

This is a sore spot with me because I'm not one of those high fluent hunters that has money to spare. I have to scrimp and save all year long to be some place I dream about every day.

W.

[stoneslinger]

Be in top physical condition, get up earlier, camp close to target the night before. Beat them to the punch. Practice shooting out to 500 yards.

[anvilmounguide]

There you go compairing again. GOABC does not reprecent all guide outfitters in BC. Many people make that misstake. I was not part of the GOABC till 2009 and there are still many out there that are not part of GOABC. If you think that GOABC asks all of it's memebers before it comes to decesions then you are wrong. Each area has it's own section. I am part of the Cariboo-chilcotin and we do not have any say in what the head office GOABC decides. Trust me the BCWF has tried to get rid of Guide Outfitters for a long long time...that is why I joined the GOABC so that I had a fighting chance against an organization that was out to destroy my way of live how I make a living. I love to hunt, why can't I make a living doing that?

Why would guide outfitters want to get rid of Res hunters?? Res Hunters make up a huge part of our client base. Not to mention all outfitters are res hunters too. We all need to work together to keep alive what we all love to do. Tust me there are enough peolpe out the that want to get rid of hunters and guide outfitters and here we are hacking at each other.

As for the coment on $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...do you work for free??? If so how do you make a living?

Since the GOABC put out the economic viability paper, and basically lobbied to kill off resident hunters' opportunities, things have gone for a complete shitter between residents and GOs. GOABC threw the first punch, and residents aren't willing to forget about that. Look to the actions of your own organization first to see why the backlash from resident hunters is so strong. Ellis pissed off a WHOLE bunch of people.

[David Heitsman]

Anvilmounguide:

You're wasting your time defending your livelihood man.

This site is primarily BCWF police and narrow minded 'key board courageous' militants who feel that every animal a GO takes is an animal
that they should or could have taken themselves.

You are providing a service and employment on a renewable resource
and many of us hunters here in BC appreciate you.

[BCrams]

Welcome to the site. Its a controversial subject you entered into.

As a member of the GOABC since 2009, one of the best things you can do is to hold the upper levels (Ellis) and tell him / them to stop the bullshit they're trying to pull with limiting resident hunter opportunity in BC, more LEH etc. Its really that simple. Tell them to follow the Allocation policy and quit with all the environmental appeals etc.

The GOABC tactics aren't winning residents too favourably the last few years and they are the ones pulling all the first punches, and often trying to do so under the table.


There you go compairing again. GOABC does not reprecent all guide outfitters in BC. Many people make that misstake. I was not part of the GOABC till 2009 and there are still many out there that are not part of GOABC. If you think that GOABC asks all of it's memebers before it comes to decesions then you are wrong. Each area has it's own section. I am part of the Cariboo-chilcotin and we do not have any say in what the head office GOABC decides. Trust me the BCWF has tried to get rid of Guide Outfitters for a long long time...that is why I joined the GOABC so that I had a fighting chance against an organization that was out to destroy my way of live how I make a living. I love to hunt, why can't I make a living doing that?

Why would guide outfitters want to get rid of Res hunters?? Res Hunters make up a huge part of our client base. Not to mention all outfitters are res hunters too. We all need to work together to keep alive what we all love to do. Tust me there are enough peolpe out the that want to get rid of hunters and guide outfitters and here we are hacking at each other.

As for the coment on $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...do you work for free??? If so how do you make a living?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

There you go compairing again. GOABC does not reprecent all guide outfitters in BC. Many people make that misstake. I was not part of the GOABC till 2009 and there are still many out there that are not part of GOABC. If you think that GOABC asks all of it's memebers before it comes to decesions then you are wrong. Each area has it's own section. I am part of the Cariboo-chilcotin and we do not have any say in what the head office GOABC decides. Trust me the BCWF has tried to get rid of Guide Outfitters for a long long time...that is why I joined the GOABC so that I had a fighting chance against an organization that was out to destroy my way of live how I make a living. I love to hunt, why can't I make a living doing that?

Why would guide outfitters want to get rid of Res hunters?? Res Hunters make up a huge part of our client base. Not to mention all outfitters are res hunters too. We all need to work together to keep alive what we all love to do. Tust me there are enough peolpe out the that want to get rid of hunters and guide outfitters and here we are hacking at each other.

As for the coment on $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...do you work for free??? If so how do you make a living?


Anvilmounguide:

You're wasting your time defending your livelihood man.

This site is primarily BCWF police and narrow minded 'key board courageous' militants who feel that every animal a GO takes is an animal
that they should or could have taken themselves.

You are providing a service and employment on a renewable resource
and many of us hunters here in BC appreciate you.

Could either of you two gentlemen please explain to us why it would be beneficial to sheep and resident hunters if Mr Thompson had won this appeal? Do you think his already poor treament of resident hunters would improve if he was no longer on quota?
We're all ears.

SSS

[stoneslinger]

How much influence does the GOABC have over the affairs of WSSOBC?
What is the position of the WSSOBC. They seem to be very, very quiet.
Or am I missing something?

[Gunner]

The BCWF is not and has not "tried to get rid of GOs".What we would like is for them to live up to the agreements they have made and to stop trying to limit Resident hunting opportunities.When a Resident hunter takes a mature ram from a GOs territory that is a possible big dollar loss to the GO.It's not suprising that they would like to keep us out,it's all about the money.How many Resident hunters can pay $30,000 to $40,000 dollars for a guided Stone hunt?I have no wish to see the GOs out of business,but I will not stand by while they attempt to erode the rights of BC hunters,just to make a buck. Gunner

[stoneslinger]

There you go compairing again. GOABC does not reprecent all guide outfitters in BC. Many people make that misstake. I was not part of the GOABC till 2009 and there are still many out there that are not part of GOABC. If you think that GOABC asks all of it's memebers before it comes to decesions then you are wrong. Each area has it's own section. I am part of the Cariboo-chilcotin and we do not have any say in what the head office GOABC decides. Trust me the BCWF has tried to get rid of Guide Outfitters for a long long time...that is why I joined the GOABC so that I had a fighting chance against an organization that was out to destroy my way of live how I make a living. I love to hunt, why can't I make a living doing that?

Why would guide outfitters want to get rid of Res hunters?? Res Hunters make up a huge part of our client base. Not to mention all outfitters are res hunters too. We all need to work together to keep alive what we all love to do. Tust me there are enough peolpe out the that want to get rid of hunters and guide outfitters and here we are hacking at each other.

As for the coment on $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...do you work for free??? If so how do you make a living?

Some of us polite residents have felt very sorry upon seeing a non-english speaking foreign client being driven around in a fruitless search for a black bear. So much so, that we have been known to direct them to the exact spot to sit a shoot a bear. See, we are not all bad residents.:-D

[325]

The BCWF is not and has not "tried to get rid of GOs".What we would like is for them to live up to the agreements they have made and to stop trying to limit Resident hunting opportunities.When a Resident hunter takes a mature ram from a GOs territory that is a possible big dollar loss to the GO.It's not suprising that they would like to keep us out,it's all about the money.How many Resident hunters can pay $30,000 to $40,000 dollars for a guided Stone hunt?I have no wish to see the GOs out of business,but I will not stand by while they attempt to erode the rights of BC hunters,just to make a buck. Gunner


Agreed. I use to guide, and the outfitter would be spitting mad if he found-out a resident had shot anything on this territory. In my experience, the over-whelming majority of guide-outfitters resent resident hunting pressure, and have a sense of entitlement over the land they guide on...which is ironic since so many are not even Canadian citizens...

That GOs would like to limit access for resident hunters is not a secret, and they continue to utlilize various tactics to undermine residents.

Honestly, I think there is room for both GOs and residents, but if GOs keep attempting to erode resident access, then I think it will be time to abolish GOs in BC, but we will need a much stronger BCWF to accomplish that

[stoneslinger]

Just don't give it away to the indians. It will be a much bigger mess.

[325]

Just don't give it away to the indians. It will be a much bigger mess.


Probably a much greater chance of this happening than we realize. We will have to pay "tresspass fees" to hunt.

[SHAKER]

There you go compairing again. GOABC does not reprecent all guide outfitters in BC. Many people make that misstake. I was not part of the GOABC till 2009 and there are still many out there that are not part of GOABC. If you think that GOABC asks all of it's memebers before it comes to decesions then you are wrong. Each area has it's own section. I am part of the Cariboo-chilcotin and we do not have any say in what the head office GOABC decides. Trust me the BCWF has tried to get rid of Guide Outfitters for a long long time...that is why I joined the GOABC so that I had a fighting chance against an organization that was out to destroy my way of live how I make a living. I love to hunt, why can't I make a living doing that?

Why would guide outfitters want to get rid of Res hunters?? Res Hunters make up a huge part of our client base. Not to mention all outfitters are res hunters too. We all need to work together to keep alive what we all love to do. Tust me there are enough peolpe out the that want to get rid of hunters and guide outfitters and here we are hacking at each other.

As for the coment on $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...do you work for free??? If so how do you make a living?


I never seen anything writen saying my business has to be kept economicaly viable!

[Gunner]

Probably a much greater chance of this happening than we realize. We will have to pay "tresspass fees" to hunt.That is the most likely long term outlook.The GOs will reach a pay for use deal and or partnership with FNs(which they are already exploring),and we will be left holding the bag.The present Government has no interest in safeguarding access rights for ordinary British Columbians.Gunner

[bridger]

the bcwf has gone on record publicly supporting the need to keep bc's doors open to non resident hunters and has many many times said publicly that the bcwf supports a viable guiding industry in this province. that is also my personal belief. an interesting note is I cannot remember the heirachy of the gobac publically saying the residents hunters should have priority. as a outfitter if you haven't seen anything presented by the goabc calling for the long term viability of the guiiding industry you may want to give them a call.

[GoatGuy]

His quotas are 6 and 4 for a total of 10 rams. (4 in his original area)

Carl

It isn't area specific anymore, the quota is assigned as one area, not two.

[GoatGuy]

How much influence does the GOABC have over the affairs of WSSOBC?
What is the position of the WSSOBC. They seem to be very, very quiet.
Or am I missing something?

WSSOBC is about putting more sheep on the mountain. Generally, so long as the 'issues' do not create a conservation concern WSSOBC doesn't and shouldn't get involved.

While there are members and board/exec members on here they do not represent the organization in their views represented on here.

[willy442]

Could either of you two gentlemen please explain to us why it would be beneficial to sheep and resident hunters if Mr Thompson had won this appeal? Do you think his already poor treament of resident hunters would improve if his was no longer on quota?
We're all ears.

SSS

You know as well as I do that the Thompson case really has nothing to do with this post other than for the title. The real meat here is the same old bullshit resident verse's G/O.

Luckilyand probably unknown to you and your little circle of friends, we have many accomplished hunters in the province that realize the need for and support of a viable guiding industry. One of the major problems in the overall view of the industry is the belief of ones vast wealth if you hold a licence. This stems from the public image of the 40 thousand dollar sheep hunts and people without a vested interest dictating what thier impression of viable is. From being there and one that had the opportunity to still be Outfitting in one of the most prestine Stone Sheep area's in the North. I can tell you Guide Outfits are not money makers. Presently I work as an oilfield consultant with my Ford pick up and my computer and gross more that most Sheep areas per annum. I don't have to feed horses, fuel airplanes, fight tooth and nail for my longivity or operate a full tourist facility in a remote area where all indemnities are totally my expense.

With that in mind in general I find this website an embarrassment to the real hunters of this fine province. Like myself many of them view the site as it does keep us a little bit in touch with our favorite pass time covered in general by the word hunting. It also is a place one can come and visit and see the no mind public effort of brainwashing by those such as the self elected spokesman for the BCWF. (need I mention his initials).

I do not believe for one second that our guiding industry is made up of angels. I do believe though and it is also well indicated by variuos posts that many on here create thier own G/O bad relationships.

Need I say anymore!:(

[Fisher-Dude]

With that in mind in general I find this website an embarrassment to the real hunters of this fine province.

Don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I do not believe for one second that our guiding industry is made up of angels. I do believe though and it is also well indicated by variuos posts that many on here create thier own G/O bad relationships.

Need I say anymore!:(

Did your son forget to call ahead?? :confused: Previously, he's gone out of his way to keep a good relationship.

SSS

[willy442]

Did your son forget to call ahead?? :confused: Previously, he's gone out of his way to keep a good relationship.

SSS

I'll tell you the same as I told him. Use your electronics to capture evidence and turn him in. Do your part in resolving the issue and bring it to an end. Not bash every G/O in the province. If you do nothing but bitch about it, THEN REALLY YOU DO NOTHING

[willy442]

Don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.

Official spokesmsn here now too?

[skibum]

I can tell you Guide Outfits are not money makers. Presently I work as an oilfield consultant with my Ford pick up and my computer and gross more that most Sheep areas per annum. I don't have to feed horses, fuel airplanes, fight tooth and nail for my longivity or operate a full tourist facility in a remote area where all indemnities are totally my expense.

What a bunch of BS. Can you explain why they do it then? If it is not monetary, someone must be holding a gun to their head to do all that sh!tty work

[Angel]

Don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.

X2..... I don't think you will find much support for GO's from the majority residents here.

[bridger]

the issue of guide outfitter/resident hunters in my mind has nothing to do whether guides are good guys or not. some of them are; some of them aren't; same as residents. the issue is simply resident priority. residents in the bcwf view should have priority in hunting opportunites over non residents. why some people can't or won't recognize that is beyond me. As a resident sheep hunter I don't think it is fair to have my hunting opps artificially reduced when the non resident takes 50% of the harvest. No other jurisdiction in north america does that. If the government stands firm on implementing the allocation policy in 2012 it is possible that in a few years the non resident share will be down to the guaranteed 20%. When that happens and the annual allowable harvest is exceeded then we look at reducing the resident side. That in my mind is fair and as residents we will be faced with reduced opportunities. I know of no other state or province that has a signicant number of residents that guarantees the non resident 20% of the sheep harvest. It is usually 10% or less. i wonder what people would say if hydro decided to sell 50% of our power to the states and told bc residents they could only turn on the lights 4 days a week; kinda the same thing!!

[Angel]

the issue of guide outfitter/resident hunters in my mind has nothing to do whether guides are good guys or not. some of them are; some of them aren't; same as residents. the issue is simply resident priority. residents in the bcwf view should have priority in hunting opportunites over non residents. why some people can't or won't recognize that is beyond me. As a resident sheep hunter I don't think it is fair to have my hunting opps artificially reduced when the non resident takes 50% of the harvest. No other jurisdiction in north america does that. If the government stands firm on implementing the allocation policy in 2012 it is possible that in a few years the non resident share will be down to the guaranteed 20%. When that happens and the annual allowable harvest is exceeded then we look at reducing the resident side. That in my mind is fair and as residents we will be faced with reduced opportunities. I know of no other state or province that has a signicant number of residents that guarantees the non resident 20% of the sheep harvest. It is usually 10% or less. i wonder what people would say if hydro decided to sell 50% of our power to the states and told bc residents they could only turn on the lights 4 days a week; kinda the same thing!!

I agree... I dont see why residents should have their rights infringed on in any way. BCWF just needs to step up and make the hard decision. By no means should residents have their hunting opportunities limited to LEH's, if anything, we need more options not less. Help support res. I understand that GO's have their place and are running a business but that should not be the main focus on.. priority to the res!

[srupp]

I am not in the "northern loop" but I have used guides trailes they have paid to have cut out , and when I guided I cut out trailes and watched resident hunters use these same trails..

I have had numerous run in with guides..and been buzzed by more than one plane,while heading after sheep....and on more than one occassion lost out on a stone sheep because the guide knew he could out leg me in getting to the ramm, evenb though he KNEW I was stalking close enough to a specific ram.....

I just want equal access to the big game in BC...and when there is no open season or LEH available then the first cut should NOT be the resident hunter...

Some of the tactics used by some G/O (I dont know about all or even MOST) are questionable at best...

steven

[willy442]

What a bunch of BS. Can you explain why they do it then? If it is not monetary, someone must be holding a gun to their head to do all that sh!tty work

It's a lifestyle enjoyed by few and cherished by many. I've been there.

[GoatGuy]

You know as well as I do that the Thompson case really has nothing to do with this post other than for the title. The real meat here is the same old bullshit resident verse's G/O.

Luckilyand probably unknown to you and your little circle of friends, we have many accomplished hunters in the province that realize the need for and support of a viable guiding industry. One of the major problems in the overall view of the industry is the belief of ones vast wealth if you hold a licence. This stems from the public image of the 40 thousand dollar sheep hunts and people without a vested interest dictating what thier impression of viable is. From being there and one that had the opportunity to still be Outfitting in one of the most prestine Stone Sheep area's in the North. I can tell you Guide Outfits are not money makers. Presently I work as an oilfield consultant with my Ford pick up and my computer and gross more that most Sheep areas per annum. I don't have to feed horses, fuel airplanes, fight tooth and nail for my longivity or operate a full tourist facility in a remote area where all indemnities are totally my expense.

With that in mind in general I find this website an embarrassment to the real hunters of this fine province. Like myself many of them view the site as it does keep us a little bit in touch with our favorite pass time covered in general by the word hunting. It also is a place one can come and visit and see the no mind public effort of brainwashing by those such as the self elected spokesman for the BCWF. (need I mention his initials).

I do not believe for one second that our guiding industry is made up of angels. I do believe though and it is also well indicated by variuos posts that many on here create thier own G/O bad relationships.

Need I say anymore!:(

Willy,

Being the self-described conservationist you are you can probably see the value in having guide-outfitter quota instead of unlimited harvest like there was in the 70s. You remember when residents were placed on LEH around Muncho due to 'conservation concerns' when the outfitter was taking 85% of the harvest.

You don't see residents asking for unlimited harvest; the allocated harvest is established and residents are achieving their share under GOS, as outfitters are achieving their share under quota. If resident harvest exceeds the allocation we will look at tools including 1 in 3 or if site specific conservation concern arises LEH or closure. Residents will support those tools as that is how we developed the allocation policy, conservation first, splits second, and hunting opportunities which met both for both groups.

Residents will not support unlimited outfitter quota on sheep as the past indicates abuse and unsustainable harvest practices - remember, sheep first.

I'm actually surprised as you're the one always stating 'sheep first' and when you see a quota appeal for unlimited outfitter harvest you jump on the 'anti-resident', 'anti BCWF', or the 'resident vs g/o' wagon, instead of worrying about the precedent this could set for sheep, never mind consumptive users. Not walking the conservationist talk.

This appeal was another push by GOABC to circumvent or breakdown the Allocation Policy, which was agreed to 3 years ago. The region 5 quota appeals and others upcoming are on the same program.

If GOABC ever falls in line with the policy which it agreed to we can all get on with habitat enhancement and forming partnerships. Until then we'll continue work as a split user group. Too bad Dale isn't still around, I don't believe he'd conduct himself in this manner.

Lastly, remember it was not resident hunters who filed the appeal or asked for unlimited quota - residents don't even have the ability. All residents were able to do is contribute to the appeal process using conservation and the allocation policy as foundations to management of stone's sheep in 7B.

[willy442]

the issue of guide outfitter/resident hunters in my mind has nothing to do whether guides are good guys or not. some of them are; some of them aren't; same as residents. the issue is simply resident priority. residents in the bcwf view should have priority in hunting opportunites over non residents. why some people can't or won't recognize that is beyond me. As a resident sheep hunter I don't think it is fair to have my hunting opps artificially reduced when the non resident takes 50% of the harvest. No other jurisdiction in north america does that. If the government stands firm on implementing the allocation policy in 2012 it is possible that in a few years the non resident share will be down to the guaranteed 20%. When that happens and the annual allowable harvest is exceeded then we look at reducing the resident side. That in my mind is fair and as residents we will be faced with reduced opportunities. I know of no other state or province that has a signicant number of residents that guarantees the non resident 20% of the sheep harvest. It is usually 10% or less. i wonder what people would say if hydro decided to sell 50% of our power to the states and told bc residents they could only turn on the lights 4 days a week; kinda the same thing!!

No one is argueing about allocation. My post was in regards to those not unlike yourself that have a self imagined view of viable and no real concept of the operating costs, nor profits.
I never have nor will be against resident priority, in fact on my list it is second after caring for the sheep. However I will not sit by and watch the whole guiding industry be bashed under one umbrella, usually by those with a personnal vendetta.

[SHAKER]

It's a lifestyle enjoyed by few and cherished by many. I've been there.


Same as me... except I don't get paid to do it and I don't get garentee's that I can go every year!:twisted:

[bridger]

Anvilmounguide:

You're wasting your time defending your livelihood man.

This site is primarily BCWF police and narrow minded 'key board courageous' militants who feel that every animal a GO takes is an animal
that they should or could have taken themselves.

You are providing a service and employment on a renewable resource
and many of us hunters here in BC appreciate you.

I can tell you in no uncertain terms that if it weren't for the efforts of the bcwf over the years leh or one in ram in five years would now be in place for the average resident sheep hunter. Of course those of us that can afford a guided hunt could care less right?

[willy442]

Willy,

Being the self-described conservationist you are you can probably see the value in having guide-outfitter quota instead of unlimited harvest like there was in the 70s. You remember when residents were placed on LEH around Muncho due to 'conservation concerns' when the outfitter was taking 85% of the harvest.

You don't see residents asking for unlimited harvest; the allocated harvest is established and residents are achieving their share under GOS, as outfitters are achieving their share under quota. If resident harvest exceeds the allocation we will look at tools including 1 in 3 or if site specific conservation concern arises LEH or closure. Residents will support those tools as that is how we developed the allocation policy, conservation first, splits second, and hunting opportunities which met both for both groups.

Residents will not support unlimited outfitter quota on sheep as the past indicates abuse and unsustainable harvest practices - remember, sheep first.

I'm actually surprised as you're the one always stating 'sheep first' and when you see a quota appeal for unlimited outfitter harvest you jump on the 'anti-resident', 'anti BCWF', or the 'resident vs g/o' wagon, instead of worrying about the precedent this could set for sheep, never mind consumptive users. Not walking the conservationist talk.

This appeal was another push by GOABC to circumvent or breakdown the Allocation Policy, which was agreed to 3 years ago. The region 5 quota appeals and others upcoming are on the same program.

If GOABC ever falls in line with the policy which it agreed to we can all get on with habitat enhancement and forming partnerships. Until then we'll continue work as a split user group. Too bad Dale isn't still around, I don't believe he'd conduct himself in this manner.

Lastly, remember it was not resident hunters who filed the appeal or asked for unlimited quota - residents don't even have the ability. All residents were able to do is contribute to the appeal process using conservation and the allocation policy as foundations to management of stone's sheep in 7B.

Had you read or followed the posts on sheep in the last few days. I have stated many times support for any relaxing of regulations on guides would recieve no support from myself. Sheep first, Residents second including natives and non residents third or last is my stand and will be forever. This fails to mean I would support more liberal regulations for the` resident side either. I would more likely support more restriction in relation to dispersing hunters, while trying to leave opportunity at the present level. We seem to like to quote managers on allocation and harvest and give little consideration to over harvested accessable patches. Time to change.

[GoatGuy]

Had you read or followed the posts on sheep in the last few days. I have stated many times support for any relaxing of regulations on guides would recieve no support from myself. Sheep first, Residents second including natives and non residents third or last is my stand and will be forever. This fails to mean I would support more liberal regulations for the` resident side either. I would more likely support more restriction in relation to dispersing hunters, while trying to leave opportunity at the present level. We seem to like to quote managers on allocation and harvest and give little consideration to over harvested accessable patches. Time to change.

If the count show problems we'll address them.

[SHAKER]

No one is argueing about allocation. My post was in regards to those not unlike yourself that have a self imagined view of viable and no real concept of the operating costs, nor profits.
I never have nor will be against resident priority, in fact on my list it is second after caring for the sheep. However I will not sit by and watch the whole guiding industry be bashed under one umbrella, usually by those with a personnal vendetta.

Concept on cost? Hmm yeah I think almost anyone who makes the tour up sheep hunting know's what the cost are for a week or so of hunting, your industry would only cost more. If sheep were removed from quota then we're back to unregulated market hunting. I'm not here to bash guides, but I won't take a back seat to one either!

[GoatGuy]

Anvilmounguide:

You're wasting your time defending your livelihood man.

This site is primarily BCWF police and narrow minded 'key board courageous' militants who feel that every animal a GO takes is an animal
that they should or could have taken themselves.

You are providing a service and employment on a renewable resource
and many of us hunters here in BC appreciate you.

I would say that's a bit out of line.

Generally most of the people 'here' want to be able to hunt in a sustainable manner. They support the guide-outfitting industry, wildlife management, ie sex ratios and population dynamics, LEH for conservation. Most do not support tools like LEH because somebody wants to have the bush to themselves, because they can afford it, or because they're hunting abilities do not allow them to find the 'big buck' they're looking for with the 'common man'. That is called hunter management, not wildlife management.

Most of them don't see the picture of a 2 pt bull moose in Region 3 and think that it's a waste to harvest it because it could be a 50" Canada moose someday. They see steaks and to be honest the guys who know and want big Canada moose sure as hell aren't looking in region 3.

Most people on this site don't support hunting regulations that are set up for outfitters, or residents who don't have the skill to successfully hunt the 'big bucks' on their own and that's entirely reasonable. Most of the hunters want to go out, enjoy time with friends and family, hunt and fill the freezer, that's it. The research is fairly well documented and straightforward.

At some point in life you're going to realize that the limitations on your hunting success aren't induced by other hunters, it's your hunting skill, or lack thereof, that limits your ability to harvest the animals you're looking for.
That's why you're successful when guided and shooting everyday deer when you're not. I think the fact you have money bothers some, but what bothers me is you think your needs are of more importance than the rest of resident hunters in the province and that hunting regulations should be setup to make up for your lack of hunting abilities.

If I want to shoot a big buck and that means I have to get up 4 hours before light to hike in an extra 10 or 15 kms than the next guy every morning it doesn't bother me. It makes it more of a challenge. It is much more satisfying than shooting a grain fed muley on private property in Alberta. When I go to Alberta I go to hunt with a buddy, not to shoot a 180 buck that I could shoot in my backyard in the mountains. I don't believe that my concept of hunting or standards should be placed on the rest of resident hunters in BC. If I don't want to see other hunters I head into the bush and pick out of the way areas. I don't go to Churn creek and expect to have the world to myself, and I certainly wouldn't go there looking for a big buck and shoot an everyday 4 pt.

You do not share the sentiments of the majority of resident hunters or the abilities of hunters who find big bucks, bulls, boars and rams along side everyone else.

I realize you do a lot for wild sheep and that's great, but your opinion, which you're entitled to, of how hunters (not wildlife) should be managed in BC is extremely self-serving, and detrimental to the future of wildlife, conservation efforts and resident hunting in BC.

[bridger]

No one is argueing about allocation. My post was in regards to those not unlike yourself that have a self imagined view of viable and no real concept of the operating costs, nor profits.
I never have nor will be against resident priority, in fact on my list it is second after caring for the sheep. However I will not sit by and watch the whole guiding industry be bashed under one umbrella, usually by those with a personnal vendetta.

i probably know as much or more about the cost of running a business you do as I own and operate three. As for viability of the guiding industry goes let us talk about the industry not individual outfitters. are all outfitters going to survive in the future? probably not as some outfits are to small to generate enough income to meet todays rising cost of doing business. the same thing that happened to mom and pop hamburger stands when mcdonalds came to town will happen to the outfitting business as it has every other industry. When the smoke clears we will have fewer, but bigger and more viable outfits that will be capable of generating income sufficient to be profitable. the generous harvest share allocated to non residents is confirmation that the bcwf supports a viable guiding industry. As goatguy said in his post the allocation policy implementation will settle the waters, but only if wiser heads in the guiding industry influence the actions of the goabc.

[Devilbear]

Anvilmounguide:

You're wasting your time defending your livelihood man.

This site is primarily BCWF police and narrow minded 'key board courageous' militants who feel that every animal a GO takes is an animal
that they should or could have taken themselves.

You are providing a service and employment on a renewable resource
and many of us hunters here in BC appreciate you.

This, is not the first unacceptable post from you denigrating resident hunters and I doubt that you have the guts to make the crack about ...keyboard courageous... to the face of anyone of those whom you slag with your ignorant remark. Be that, as it may, get one thing REAL straight, pal, the guy here who fits your description best is YOU!

Due to the moderation of this site, I will leave it there, for now.

[Devilbear]

There you go compairing again. GOABC does not reprecent all guide outfitters in BC. Many people make that misstake. I was not part of the GOABC till 2009 and there are still many out there that are not part of GOABC. If you think that GOABC asks all of it's memebers before it comes to decesions then you are wrong. Each area has it's own section. I am part of the Cariboo-chilcotin and we do not have any say in what the head office GOABC decides. Trust me the BCWF has tried to get rid of Guide Outfitters for a long long time...that is why I joined the GOABC so that I had a fighting chance against an organization that was out to destroy my way of live how I make a living. I love to hunt, why can't I make a living doing that?

Why would guide outfitters want to get rid of Res hunters?? Res Hunters make up a huge part of our client base. Not to mention all outfitters are res hunters too. We all need to work together to keep alive what we all love to do. Tust me there are enough peolpe out the that want to get rid of hunters and guide outfitters and here we are hacking at each other.

As for the coment on $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...do you work for free??? If so how do you make a living?

You may not be able to make a living making it possible for largely foreign trophy collectors to kill BC wildlife simply because there is not enough wildlife for we residents to obtain what we wish to every year. WE OWN ALL of BC and the resources contained therein and, frankly, given what I have witnessed in 46 years of hunting where I was born and working in resource management and processing, the GOs are the problem and are getting worse.

Making a living, doing what one likes is not always possible in life and there are no "guarantees" that one's occupation is fun, fulfilling or even tolerable. That, is just what life is like and the GO "business" in BC is as susceptible to the vagaries of our economy and changing social mores as any other endeavour....life is tough, then, you find another job!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I'll tell you the same as I told him. Use your electronics to capture evidence and turn him in. Do your part in resolving the issue and bring it to an end. Not bash every G/O in the province. If you do nothing but bitch about it, THEN REALLY YOU DO NOTHING

That's some good advice, Willy. I always pack a video camera for personal reasons but it's always at hand just in case....but why has it come to this stage?? Is the punishment for doing something like this not strong enough??
To anyone in the know....What are the possible penalties of interfering with a legal hunt and violating some Transport Canada flight rules?? Slap on the wrist?? Small fine?? Stiff fine?? Suspension of pilot's license?? Grounding of plane?? Forfeiting plane?? Loss of sheep quota?? Forfeiting of GO territory??
Somehow I think the punishment does not fit the crime:?.

Maybe us residents should be lobbying for much stiffer penalites for viloations like this??

Sorry, I'm a bit of an idealist. Call it a fault if you will. I play by the rules. Always have, always will. Don't like cheaters especially when it's at the expense of someone else who does follow the rules.

As far as I know, I have not bashed EVERY G/O in the province...at least it was not my intention and I apologize if I ever did. Just don't like it when residents get treated like we're criminals trying to steal someone else's sheep.

But I do say thanks for getting everyone fired up!:)

SSS

[frenchbar]

Probably a much greater chance of this happening than we realize. We will have to pay "tresspass fees" to hunt.

bingo...its probably coming :icon_frow

[stoneslinger]

The lapdog has barked! I'm patiently waiting for him to permanently exit the WSSOBC. I may then consider renewal.

[frenchbar]

The lapdog has barked! I'm patiently waiting for him to permanently exit the WSSOBC. I may then consider renewal.

affordability and greed and ego is what the lapdog is all about...not sure why he keeps coming back to bark:?

[willy442]

i probably know as much or more about the cost of running a business you do as I own and operate three. As for viability of the guiding industry goes let us talk about the industry not individual outfitters. are all outfitters going to survive in the future? probably not as some outfits are to small to generate enough income to meet todays rising cost of doing business. the same thing that happened to mom and pop hamburger stands when mcdonalds came to town will happen to the outfitting business as it has every other industry. When the smoke clears we will have fewer, but bigger and more viable outfits that will be capable of generating income sufficient to be profitable. the generous harvest share allocated to non residents is confirmation that the bcwf supports a viable guiding industry. As goatguy said in his post the allocation policy implementation will settle the waters, but only if wiser heads in the guiding industry influence the actions of the goabc.

Three businesses or not you still have no real experience on the operating of a guide area. You can only make assumptions as to what viable is just like anyone else on site that hasn't been there. I find it laughable when you post such statements then turn around in the next breath and state how the resident put away more into the economy.
Had the guiding business been as lucrative as you seem to believe, we would not be in the pickle we are today with foriegn ownership. Banks would have realized how profitable they were and we would probably have all Canadian owned areas. This isn't the case because the truth of the matter is they are not all that profitable and in addition the financing of one is at huge risk to the lender. So I guess it goes hand in hand, keep under cutting the viability at the expense of more foriegn ownership.

As I've stated on here before. I do not support any relaxation of regulation on outfitters. I do,though feel the playing field should be leveled a little from some on here. After all no guide industry would equal no hunting period alot quicker.

[willy442]

That's some good advice, Willy. I always pack a video camera for personal reasons but it's always at hand just in case....but why has it come to this stage?? Is the punishment for doing something like this not strong enough??
To anyone in the know....What are the possible penalties of interfering with a legal hunt and violating some Transport Canada flight rules?? Slap on the wrist?? Small fine?? Stiff fine?? Suspension of pilot's license?? Grounding of plane?? Forfeiting plane?? Loss of sheep quota?? Forfeiting of GO territory??
Somehow I think there crime does not fit the punishment:?.

Maybe us residents should be lobbying for much stiffer penalites for viloations like this??

Sorry, I'm a bit of an idealist. Call it a fault if you will. I play by the rules. Always have, always will. Don't like cheaters especially when it's at the expense of someone else who does follow the rules.

As far as I know, I have not bashed EVERY G/O in the province...at least it was not my intention and I apologize if I ever did. Just don't like it when residents get treated like we're criminals trying to steal someone else's sheep.

But I do say thanks for getting everyone fired up!:)

SSS

Do whatever it takes. It would be much better having stiffer penalties that fit the crime and have something done about it, then hear the whinning on the subject every year.
Tell me why is allocation so important to you if the G/O can fly around and chase your sheep off? In my view there may be additional ways to improve our hunting before 2012.

[Fisher-Dude]

The lapdog has barked! I'm patiently waiting for him to permanently exit the WSSOBC. I may then consider renewal.

I, too, would consider membership in WSSBC if it weren't for him and his ilk. I have a few friends that are quite involved in it, and feel kinda bad about not joining when they ask me for my support, but I think they understand my reasons for not doing so.

Until there's a change, I'll have to keep my pile of membership cards to BCWF, RMEF, Access BC, and my local fish & game club.

[srupp]

I know a tiny bit on costs...having watched the Outfitter I worked for..no she didnt have a airplane but the costs were there..like any buisness..only this one waas waaay back in the mountains..also I have seen numerous G/O up north and yes there are significant costs all year long..not just the hunting season..but the income was also pretty good no not on Grizzly but I know what some of the sheep hunts went for..WOW!!!!

I would love to one day go on a guided hunt...those Dall sheep hunts in the NWT look amazing...ride a horse in..have meals cooked, but thats not my lot in life...and I dont hold it against those that can and do afford these luxuries..I look at the animals I have harvested..and realize they would mean just as much as long as they were legally harvested..

I appreciate the BCWF , I am a member..and think the direction of guide outfitter allocations seems sound..

Seems the Sheep hunts are THE issue because there is so much $$$$$$$$$$$ involved...I know of individual stone sheep hunts that went for $50,000....no wonder theres "competition" and incentive to keep it going...ensuring future hunters know where these big rams come from..

never had much issues when grizzly hunting or deer hunting or moose hunting..only sheep..weather Calies in the Tasekos, or stones up north..

And pretty much it has been every area, not just one guide outfitter...pretty consistent...pretty plain as a resident hunter I wasnt wanted..and the intentional attempt at screwing up my stalk on stones and Calies by guides really pisses me off..hard to have sympathy on the making a livlihood when as a resident hunter it is obvious they dictate which lakes pilots can land at with residents IF that company wants future outfitters buisness, or low fly byes, or rushing on a head knowing a stalk on a specific sheep is taking place..pretty frustrating..

Steven

[SHAKER]

And pretty much it has been every area, not just one guide outfitter...pretty consistent...pretty plain as a resident hunter I wasnt wanted..and the intentional attempt at screwing up my stalk on stones and Calies by guides really pisses me off..hard to have sympathy on the making a livlihood when as a resident hunter it is obvious they dictate which lakes pilots can land at with residents IF that company wants future outfitters buisness, or low fly byes, or rushing on a head knowing a stalk on a specific sheep is taking place..pretty frustrating..

Steven

Try being a resident Cougar hunter! not much differance in my area.

[Coming_out_heavy.]

Willy said it was a personal vendetta for most, and I think he is right.


It boils down to money. The animals pay the bills for a GO. We are taking money out of their pockets. It cant get more simple. This will obviously lead to the outfitter being pissed off when I shoot a ram in his area. There is no way this will make him happy. It doesnt matter if in another circumstance you might be best of friends with the guy. You are taking money out of his pocket. He will not be happy.

This leads to the problems we see happening. Shady shit, lies, sneaking, buzzing with planes, slashed tires etc.

And it does go the other way, once a resident gets a sour taste he is more likely to kick dirt back as well. Personal vendetta time.

In one dealing I had with a GO, Leiff Olsen, had been very normal until he found out lordbrown shot a grizzly in his area. Once he confirmed that it was a grizzly we shot and not a blackbear, he ended the conversation by turning on the spot, and I mean on the spot, so we were now looking at the back of his hat. It was kind of comical actually. Anyway, we found it pretty rude, and made sure to put in for tags in his area....again, even though we had planned to try out another area for our next hunt.
(Leiff, if you care, we passed on 2 grizzly bears this year.)

In Leiffs defense, he MAY have been having coffee with Drinkall at the time when we told him about that grizzly we got, not that it changes anything.

Anyway, my point is, even though that incident is a small one, it shows how fast a seemingly friendly relationship with a GO can turn into something less friendly.

[40incher]

This whole issue of some of the more influential G.O.'s going on the attack was somewhat predictable. Once they got what they wanted out of the Allocation Policy (guaranteed minimum shares) they tried to kill the rest of the policy that can work for BC residents. They have even turned on their own, with the large outfitters squeezing out the little guides with well-designed wording in the policy. There are some real cutthroats out there and they will do whatever it takes to benefit their little kingdoms.

I agree with Bridger in that without a strong and consistent position, by resident hunter reps (both in the BCWF and as individuals) at both the local and provincial level, we resident hunters would be in an even poorer position. The "guide industry" as an entity started the pissing match and I feel the reps on the side of the BC residents had little choice but to reciprocate.

Having donated thousands of hours of my personal and family time over the years to defend hunting for all, and having dealt with both the good and the bad within the GOABC and the independant guides, I have seen the relationship between residents and guides crash and burn. The development of the new Allocation Policy was very divisive all round, and a few in the MOE played a big part in fanning the flames. Telling each group what they thought they wanted to hear while stabbing them both in the back as they liked.

We have to make the new policy work and that will take great vigilence, as the benefits down the road (2012 and beyond) favour BC residents. That's why the "bad" guys in the G.O. community will throw everything they can at it to derail it. I encourage the guides who don't like what they see to start speaking out in their own ranks. I personally know some G.O.'s that have tried, but they were inevitably are outranked.

It benefits both the guide industry and the BC resident hunters to get past this and resume working together again. Between some of the more influential MOE bureaucrats and the anti-hunting groups they love to see us fighting.

I have stated the latter fact to any G.O. that will listen but as yet they do not see the benefit of it. The ball is in the court of the commercial industry in my opinion.

[bayou]

I, too, would consider membership in WSSBC if it weren't for him and his ilk. I have a few friends that are quite involved in it, and feel kinda bad about not joining when they ask me for my support, but I think they understand my reasons for not doing so.

Until there's a change, I'll have to keep my pile of membership cards to BCWF, RMEF, Access BC, and my local fish & game club.
Its kinda like the BCWF, I know many that may consider joining if it weren't for you and your ilk.

[willy442]

It benefits both the guide industry and the BC resident hunters to get past this and resume working together again. Between some of the more influential MOE bureaucrats and the anti-hunting groups they love to see us fighting.


This pretty much sums it all up. If it fails to change soon the G/O and resident will have been fighting for nothing. The sooner we stand on common ground the better.
Work to stopping the harrasment by G/O's but also work towards presenting a better resident image on all fronts instead of accusing them of being dishonest and sneaky. Then we start playing on the same field with them, using the same tactics. Image is very important in resolving this I believe those on top of it will come up the winner.

[bridger]

Three businesses or not you still have no real experience on the operating of a guide area. You can only make assumptions as to what viable is just like anyone else on site that hasn't been there. I find it laughable when you post such statements then turn around in the next breath and state how the resident put away more into the economy.
Had the guiding business been as lucrative as you seem to believe, we would not be in the pickle we are today with foriegn ownership. Banks would have realized how profitable they were and we would probably have all Canadian owned areas. This isn't the case because the truth of the matter is they are not all that profitable and in addition the financing of one is at huge risk to the lender. So I guess it goes hand in hand, keep under cutting the viability at the expense of more foriegn ownership.

As I've stated on here before. I do not support any relaxation of regulation on outfitters. I do,though feel the playing field should be leveled a little from some on here. After all no guide industry would equal no hunting period alot quicker.

what is so hard about understanding the business plan of an outfitting business. the government says that all non residents must hire a guide outfitter,(built in client base) the government gives you sheep tags virtually for nothing, you sell them for $35,000 US each, pay your staff marginal wages, spend the winters travelling in the USA, booking more hunts. Pretty simple seems to me. As far as resident hunters contributing more to the economy than non residents that is a matter of public record and not just marginally but about 12 times as much, you can look it up. you keep saying that both groups need to work together and then throw rocks at residents. what's with that?

[Devilbear]

What I notice on threads concerning anything to do with the GOs and the travesty of allowing foreign involvement in and domination of BC hunting, is that the same tired arguments and personal slurs are always posted by the same posters. I see no credibility in these rants and we need a totally new approach to all hunting in BC, but, I rather doubt that this will happen.

I am adamantly anti-GOABC and nothing now will change that; I want all foreigners out of the guiding industry in BC and I think that the next provincial administration will very probably make that happen...or, follow the example of US states and Saskachewan in Canada and severely restrict or even eliminate "non resident alien" hunting here, permanently.

The animosity toward the GOABC here is a result of their own misbehaviour and will increase, IMHO. My friend and most frequent hunting partner was dangerously buzzed by an outfitter's plane in northwestern BC on a knife-edge ridge and could have fallen to his death.....my .338WM would have thundered at the first passby!

A concerted and longterm campaign of personal letters to Wally Penner, Gordo and the MoE "brass" WILL eventually bring changes and will also undercut the on-going bullshit coming from "Raincoast" and all the other extremist false "conservation" groups. Fight back, fight hard and never give the GOABC an inch, fuggem!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Any business that heavily relies on US tourists is not a good business to be in right now...and the outlook down south isn't rosie.
A few years ago my financial advisor told me to pull out investments I had in the US. This was before the crash.

Over the next few yrs I wouldn't be surpized to see a correction in hunt prices to reflect the southern economy.

SSS

[stoneslinger]

I can think of much, much, much better places to go and things to do for $US25,000 or more. My Stone's sheep hunts are usually 1/25 of that.:-D
The allure of being flown or ridden into a sheep and babysat gets lost on me. Nothing fulfilling about that experience. I'd feel very empty inside.

[bridger]

Any business that heavily relies on US tourists is not a good business to be in right now...and the outlook down south isn't rosie.
A few years ago my financial advisor told me to pull out investments I had in the US. This was before the crash.

Over the next few yrs I wouldn't be surpized to see a correction in hunt prices to reflect the southern economy.

SSS
I agree on the hunt prices perhaps adjusting due to economic conditions. this is happening now somewhat on the meat and potato species such as moose. will be interesting to see about sheep as the non resident sheep hunting fraternity (fnaws, grandslam club etc) is pretty exclusive and weathly. three or for years ago I attended a meeting in prince george to talk about stone sheep harvest strategy. A rep from fnaws was there and publicly told the outfitters they were selling their sheep hunts too cheap and in his opinion a stone hunt should be the same as a desert ram hunt. minimum $50,000 us. when the allocation policy kicks in and the non resident share drops to about 70 rams that will tell the story.

[budismyhorse]

from what I've been told from several guide friends of mine is the pressure to kill a stones ram is emmense on those trips.

the dude has paid up and wants a ram (that doesn't count the rich rich fellas who wipe their ass with 30k). That is why the guides are flying more and pounding the ground to get in front of residents.

A friend of mine just got back from a looooooong horse trip through R7 country and every where he went there were guides hunting the hills they were riding up to........the "birds" in the air were talking to the guides on the ground telling them where my buddies crew was headed.....they simply got in front of them at every turn. Sat phones and planes......now that spells ethics.

They are asking a premium for stones.....I'm not surprised by the behaviour of G/O's. It is kind of a natural response to pressure like that.

[Devilbear]

I would prefer to see all US-based organizations such as FNAWS and RMEF banned in BC-Canada. We have our provincial hunter/angler/naturalist groups, such as our wonderful BCWF and we do NOT need rich Yanks coming here to tell us what to do with OUR sheep, elk or fresh water!

There are NO "North American Sheep" IN BC, there are ONLY "BC wild sheep" and it is time we realized that these advocacy groups, as witness the representative advising higher hunt prices, are in it to get control of OUR wildlife for their wealthy members.

I would like to see a "one in three" policy for ALL wild sheep in BC, large " resident's only" hunting areas and a draw system for other CANADIANS....and, then, we can look at foreign hunting if we can spare any sheep.

[bridger]

I would prefer to see all US-based organizations such as FNAWS and RMEF banned in BC-Canada. We have our provincial hunter/angler/naturalist groups, such as our wonderful BCWF and we do NOT need rich Yanks coming here to tell us what to do with OUR sheep, elk or fresh water!

There are NO "North American Sheep" IN BC, there are ONLY "BC wild sheep" and it is time we realized that these advocacy groups, as witness the representative advising higher hunt prices, are in it to get control of OUR wildlife for their wealthy members.

I would like to see a "one in three" policy for ALL wild sheep in BC, large " resident's only" hunting areas and a draw system for other CANADIANS....and, then, we can look at foreign hunting if we can spare any sheep.

the one in three rule is a good one if we are in an overharvest situation and much more preferable than leh. the plain truth is tho that there are very few residents that take a ram every year or even every three years. the sucess rate just isn't that high for residents. also the very nature of sheep hunters is that for the most part as they become more sucessful they become more selective. I like the idea of resident only areas or even more so a two week resident only season, especially in region 6 where the harvest and allocation is really out of whack.

[willy442]

what is so hard about understanding the business plan of an outfitting business. the government says that all non residents must hire a guide outfitter,(built in client base) the government gives you sheep tags virtually for nothing, you sell them for $35,000 US each, pay your staff marginal wages, spend the winters travelling in the USA, booking more hunts. Pretty simple seems to me. As far as resident hunters contributing more to the economy than non residents that is a matter of public record and not just marginally but about 12 times as much, you can look it up. you keep saying that both groups need to work together and then throw rocks at residents. what's with that?

Not throwing rocks at anyone. There is a huge difference when you start talking about money on this issue. The resident recirculates money already here. The Non resident brings in new money, which as you damn well know is looked at as putting more into the economy.

As for your statement on the built in client base, free tags selling for 35,000.00 each and the unlimited time holidaying in the USA. How about get into the business and try it. You will soon realize your real estate is a cake walk compared to the G/O business. This has been your and others view on how great the returns are outfitting for sometime now yet you have failed to get into such a lucrative life style. One we all know you enjoy. Why not throw a million in and try it?

[willy442]

I would prefer to see all US-based organizations such as FNAWS and RMEF banned in BC-Canada. We have our provincial hunter/angler/naturalist groups, such as our wonderful BCWF and we do NOT need rich Yanks coming here to tell us what to do with OUR sheep, elk or fresh water!

There are NO "North American Sheep" IN BC, there are ONLY "BC wild sheep" and it is time we realized that these advocacy groups, as witness the representative advising higher hunt prices, are in it to get control of OUR wildlife for their wealthy members.

I would like to see a "one in three" policy for ALL wild sheep in BC, large " resident's only" hunting areas and a draw system for other CANADIANS....and, then, we can look at foreign hunting if we can spare any sheep.

Devilbear: Glad to see you back posting. Gatehouse and his buddies haven't had much to interfere with since you've been gone.

I think the same as you on your last paragraph. Careful though it appears you may be softening up on your nonresident views. :)

[willy442]

from what I've been told from several guide friends of mine is the pressure to kill a stones ram is emmense on those trips.

the dude has paid up and wants a ram (that doesn't count the rich rich fellas who wipe their ass with 30k). That is why the guides are flying more and pounding the ground to get in front of residents.

A friend of mine just got back from a looooooong horse trip through R7 country and every where he went there were guides hunting the hills they were riding up to........the "birds" in the air were talking to the guides on the ground telling them where my buddies crew was headed.....they simply got in front of them at every turn. Sat phones and planes......now that spells ethics.

They are asking a premium for stones.....I'm not surprised by the behaviour of G/O's. It is kind of a natural response to pressure like that.

This behavior is we should be fighting big time.

[GoatGuy]

Not throwing rocks at anyone. There is a huge difference when you start talking about money on this issue. The resident recirculates money already here. The Non resident brings in new money, which as you damn well know is looked at as putting more into the economy.

As for your statement on the built in client base, free tags selling for 35,000.00 each and the unlimited time holidaying in the USA. How about get into the business and try it. You will soon realize your real estate is a cake walk compared to the G/O business. This has been your and others view on how great the returns are outfitting for sometime now yet you have failed to get into such a lucrative life style. One we all know you enjoy. Why not throw a million in and try it?

you're better off not having the economic discussion - it just isn't your thing and it's not something the can be taught or understood on the forum. Lending policies and foreign investment all tie into that and it really isn't something you'll get.

[stoneslinger]

This post outlines one the most disturbing aspects of the Stone's sheep hunt. It raises awareness to the issues of fair chase, fair play, and in some instances, questionable legality.


from what I've been told from several guide friends of mine is the pressure to kill a stones ram is emmense on those trips.

the dude has paid up and wants a ram (that doesn't count the rich rich fellas who wipe their ass with 30k). That is why the guides are flying more and pounding the ground to get in front of residents.

A friend of mine just got back from a looooooong horse trip through R7 country and every where he went there were guides hunting the hills they were riding up to........the "birds" in the air were talking to the guides on the ground telling them where my buddies crew was headed.....they simply got in front of them at every turn. Sat phones and planes......now that spells ethics.

They are asking a premium for stones.....I'm not surprised by the behaviour of G/O's. It is kind of a natural response to pressure like that.

[budismyhorse]

This post outlines one the most disturbing aspects of the Stone's sheep hunt. It raises awareness to the issues of fair chase, fair play, and in some instances, questionable legality.

well.......the entire thing was probably just a coincidence....:wink:

however, when you meet a Guide and dude on the trail and he says "we've been expecting you"...........that doesn't exactly bode well for the rest of your trip.

Anyone that doesn't have their head stuck in the sand knows what is going on out there......but what can be done?

[Fisher-Dude]

A concerted and longterm campaign of personal letters to Wally Penner

Good ol' Wally Penner. :mrgreen:

[stoneslinger]

I tip my hat to the GO's being able to fetch $25K ++ for a Stone's hunt.

Many residents I offer to take have a big issue with paying for fuel and food, they try to control the hunt and expect me to be a camp biotch and then expect me to siphon any remaining fuel out of the boat and divvy it up at the end. Sheesh!

[bridger]

Not throwing rocks at anyone. There is a huge difference when you start talking about money on this issue. The resident recirculates money already here. The Non resident brings in new money, which as you damn well know is looked at as putting more into the economy.

As for your statement on the built in client base, free tags selling for 35,000.00 each and the unlimited time holidaying in the USA. How about get into the business and try it. You will soon realize your real estate is a cake walk compared to the G/O business. This has been your and others view on how great the returns are outfitting for sometime now yet you have failed to get into such a lucrative life style. One we all know you enjoy. Why not throw a million in and try it?


my point apparently was lost in the transfer. That is simpy that all business's have issues and there is nothing special about the difficulties in running a guiding area. all business' have challenges. the truth is tho that the guiding industry for all its problems has a couple of advantages. one being that all non residents must hire a guide and outfitters have exclusive areas in which to operate. as far as throwing in some money to buying an outfitter area I have been offered the chance two or three times with financing in place. each time i considered it carefully and then went to lie down in a dark room with a cold rag over my face until the feeling went away. One such area was your dad's when he sold. nothing against the outfitting business just not my cup of tea. would rather hunt on my own than cater to someone always bitching about nothing important.. those that like it good on them and may they be sucessful!!

[stoneslinger]

Good ol' Wally Penner. :mrgreen:

I believe he was referring to Willy VanderRam

[Deadshot]

The price of Stones should go up when the allocation kicks in & the GO's quota is reduced. Even where they are priced now, a client must expect a decent ram for what they're paying. When the price goes up, so will the pressure to deliver a cranker. Expect outfitter tactics to become MORE questionable.

[frenchbar]

I tip my hat to the GO's being able to fetch $25K ++ for a Stone's hunt.

Many residents I offer to take have a big issue with paying for fuel and food, they try to control the hunt and expect me to be a camp biotch and then expect me to siphon any remaining fuel out of the boat and divvy it up at the end. Sheesh!
sounds good ....when do we leave:mrgreen: i like my eggs over easy and my steaks medium well..should i bring an apron for ya lol...

[1899]

The price of Stones should go up when the allocation kicks in & the GO's quota is reduced. Even where they are priced now, a client must expect a decent ram for what they're paying. When the price goes up, so will the pressure to deliver a cranker. Expect outfitter tactics to become MORE questionable.

It says a lot about the client if they expect to shoot something. Sure doesn't sound like hunting to me.

[WoodOx]

How about get into the business and try it. You will soon realize your real estate is a cake walk compared to the G/O business.

Im not educated enough to pipe in on this debate, however this is a pretty generalized and inacurate comment. The real estate industry has been the farthest thing from a cake walk the past couple of years.

try carrying a $32,000,000 construction loan with nothing but you and your team to sell it off....when no one is buying.... then tell me about a cake walk.

again, not taking sides, just stating that thats a pretty misguided point

[JDR]

Fantastic news...thanks for the update!

[willy442]

Im not educated enough to pipe in on this debate, however this is a pretty generalized and inacurate comment. The real estate industry has been the farthest thing from a cake walk the past couple of years.

try carrying a $32,000,000 construction loan with nothing but you and your team to sell it off....when no one is buying.... then tell me about a cake walk.


again, not taking sides, just stating that thats a pretty misguided point

There's a difference between developing and being a salesman. I agree the developer has a vested interest just like the guide.

[Devilbear]

It says a lot about the client if they expect to shoot something. Sure doesn't sound like hunting to me.

I agree with "Deadshot's" statement and this comment on it. Willy, one of the two most ornery old baztards on HBC, second only to me, has remarked on the ...international hunting companies... several times on threads concerning sheep and, he is right. We are going to see a LOT more hassle before this situation is resolved.

I support the BCWF and, as my wife is slowly improving in her health issues, largely caused by work related stress and getting old, I intend to spend more time doing whatever I can to help out with the Federation's work on these and similar issues.

I just received a copy of the current "Outdoor Edge" and am extremely impressed by the comments therein by the newly-elected "Pres." of the BCWF....there is still hope, but, we have a major and costly fight ahead of us, just to preserve OUR rights and OUR wildlife in OUR province.

[Bluedsteel]

I spent many years guiding in the north and have a pretty good understanding of the Oufitter/Resident hunter relationship. I've now moved on to bigger and better things but I remember being out in the midle of nowhere and bumping in to resident hunters on the odd occasion. A good guide carries a fair amount of stress when he's taking client out on a 35,000 or 40,000 dollar sheep hunt, the pressure is on to produce, so bumping in to a resident just added the ellement of competition to an already difficult situation. The only negative thing I can think of that residents did to piss off the outfitter (besides hunt in his area) that I worked for was to use our camp and burn our dry tent poles that we used for our wall tents, doesn't sound like a terrible thing but it is an inconvenience when you pull in to camp near dark with a string of horses and you have to find crap load of straight poles.

That being said I have seen and heard of things this outfitter would do to just to piss off residents and it was really sad. He buzzed over hunters with his plane, intimated them, even warned other entrepreneurs in the area that he would do everything in his power to shut them down if they ever helped a resident in distress. Not all outfitters are this nasty but when you are placing a $40,000 price tag on a sheep, people get greedy and thats what it's all about, money! For all you residents that I may have bumped into over the years you guys were awesome, respectful and even helpful every time! It really ticks me off knowing how cut throat and disrespectful some outfitters can be towards their own countrymen. Anyhow back to the topic, I'm really glad to hear the Thompson appeal was denied.

[Fisher-Dude]

I guess it comes down to this: do people pay $35,000 to go sheep hunting, or do they pay $35,000 to shoot a sheep? GOABC seems to think the latter, so maybe a high-fenced hunt on 3 acres better suits their goals.

[Coming_out_heavy.]

The price of Stones should go up when the allocation kicks in & the GO's quota is reduced. Even where they are priced now, a client must expect a decent ram for what they're paying. When the price goes up, so will the pressure to deliver a cranker. Expect outfitter tactics to become MORE questionable.

As the price goes up and the pressure is greater to deliver a ram, I think the chances of them getting a "cranker" reduces.

They know where to get rams, they hunt the same basins every year. They are watching those sheep grow up. Does the high paying hunter want to be guaranteed a ram, one that is on deck to be shot, or does he want to give the guide some time to find him a BIG ram, and risk not getting one at all?

I say the guides are getting rams they know are there, to be sure to deliver. If they get a real cranker, I bet the guide is saying to himself, "where the fack did THAT guy come from?"

[silvicon]

As I mentioned already:
how many of you are real sheep hunters, how many are you just bs'ers?
This whole thing is just GO bashing by a few sad loosers.

[bridger]

thompson losing the appeal was a great thing for resident sheep hunters and there are a lot of good sheep hunters on this site. as far as guide bashing goes read the the thread; quite a bit of resident bashing by guides as well. as far as the harrassment of residents by guides is concerned you are either a guide or someone who knows absolutely nothing about the reality of being a resident sheep hunter.

[Jagermeister]

I guess it comes down to this: do people pay $35,000 to go sheep hunting, or do they pay $35,000 to shoot a sheep? GOABC seems to think the latter, so maybe a high-fenced hunt on 3 acres better suits their goals.
The most astute comment made.

[guest]

Silvicon ..........

In your opinion your absolutely right .......... in your own opinion ...........

That said you are forgetting .............. most hunters in this province are........

resident hunters, that represent this province .......... give your head a shake!

It's the resident that should always get first dips, first crack and first chance at all our fish and game.

CT

[Devilbear]

As I mentioned already:
how many of you are real sheep hunters, how many are you just bs'ers?
This whole thing is just GO bashing by a few sad loosers.

May I ask, what exactly is a ...looser...?

As to ...real... hunters, of sheep or whatever, why not enlighten we simple residents with YOUR experiences and abilities about sheep and other forms of hunting? Perhaps, you might tell us which GO you work for or are related to?

Another issue comes to mind, you ARE a genuine BCer, eh, not a recent "resident" for hunting purposes, such as the notorious American poacher, Bryan Martin?

So, since you seem happy to slag so many here, why not backup your comments with a bit of your own "expertise"....seems only fair to me.

[frenchbar]

As I mentioned already:
how many of you are real sheep hunters, how many are you just bs'ers?
This whole thing is just GO bashing by a few sad loosers.

What a loser you are ..everytime you post ..you confirm it!

[stoneslinger]

DB, no need to demonstrate intellectual superiority by picking at spelling and grammar. Not all folks have well polished delivery. Have you ever hunter for a Stone's sheep ever in your life? Like to hear about your experiences.
Also like to hear about your experiences Silvicon.

[Coming_out_heavy.]

What makes someone a real sheep hunter?

Serious question.

[Deadshot]

Blood, sweat &..................beers!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Blood, sweat &..................beers!


So that's what you had in your dog's pack??!!
Pure genious!!:-D

SSS

[Devilbear]

DB, no need to demonstrate intellectual superiority by picking at spelling and grammar. Not all folks have well polished delivery. Have you ever hunter for a Stone's sheep ever in your life? Like to hear about your experiences.
Also like to hear about your experiences Silvicon.


Well, perhaps if a poster such as this treated others with reasonable courtesy, I might be more inclined to ignore his consistently poor writing. In short, if one expects to be treated well, it is a good idea to treat others well.

Yes, I have hunted for Stone's sheep once, for two weeks, backpacking out of a horse camp in the Muskwa area. I hunted, alone, on foot and covered a lot of ground. I found one huge Elk and decided against shooting as he was 400+ yds. from me and I did not have a rest.

I could have killed two different large bull Moose but the "packer" refused to pack the meat out and I stalked to within 35 yds. of one as the "rut" started, so, was pretty POed at the packer's not living up to his promises in his brochure.

The single sheep I found was not legal and the MoE and BCFS staffers from Fort Nelly heloed in and gave this packer a lot of grief for having the few horses grazing where his main camp was located. The bio, in particular, a college buddy and friend of a local GO and another I knew, was really snotty to the packer and even we residents; so, I quietly mentioned that I had been BCFS, was currently AFS and was going to call Victoria, when I got back to Vancouver....this jerk is no longer the local bio, btw.

Cali. BHs, one long, solo backpack trip which was VERY hot, over 90*F and into an area that a BCFS staffer told me about in a phone call. There were some Yankees with a local GO on horses and they had chased most game into wherever; I finally found two bedded rams, at roughly 800 yds. and after some time with my spotter, realized that both were JUST barely legal and decided against stalking closer....I don't believe in harassing wildlife when I do not intend to shoot or in killing youthful rams just to say I got one.

So, in three times, when I had a sheep tag, I have seen a ram(s), the other in the Kootenays, but, I do not and have never claimed to be a ...real sheep hunter... here or anywhere. That is irrelevent, in any case, as BC BELONGS to people, like me, whose ancestors founded and built this province and ANY comment I or any citizen here chooses to make on ANY resource issue is totally valid as a result.

Very simple, really, anyone can spew derisive comments about ...real sheep hunters... and/or question another poster's mountain/bush experience. So, the next question is, why would any legitimate poster here want to denigrate another, unless there is a specific agenda involved?

The next query is obvious, but, I will refrain.

[stoneslinger]

Thanks for the prompt reply. Sheep hunting, in and of itself, can often times be way overrated. The adventure along the way and the natural wonders encountered are the most satisfying for me. This type of harmonious experience escapes many persons. The self-imposed pressure to harvest a ram can be emotionally debilitating - especially whilst searching for Cranker California rams and B&C mine Rocky's.

[bridger]

sheep hunters love finding sheep and observing them for hours just for the simple pleasure of seeing them. harvesting one is the ultimate goal, but just being in wild country hunting rams is the real high. i guess if you have to ask what a sheep hunter is you need to find the answer within yourself.

[stoneslinger]

I like how sheep paw the ground to make a bed, asses facing in while bedded, butting heads, meticulously scratching itches, sleeping like a passed out drunk, running and panicking like a headless chicken. If only that single, alert sentry would pass out like the drunk looking one all would be well! And then there are the old ones that perch high like a king on a throne, horns shimmering in the heat waves......................................

[SHAKER]

As I mentioned already:
how many of you are real sheep hunters, how many are you just bs'ers?
This whole thing is just GO bashing by a few sad loosers.


Ouch!

Did some of us stike a nerve?

[SHAKER]

sheep hunters love finding sheep and observing them for hours just for the simple pleasure of seeing them. harvesting one is the ultimate goal, but just being in wild country hunting rams is the real high. i guess if you have to ask what a sheep hunter is you need to find the answer within yourself.

Well put, competing agains the comercial sector wasn't mentioned though?

[Sawbuck]

I just read this post - not sure how I missed this. From my perspective if Mr. Thompson thinks that there is an unlimited amount of rams for Doctors from California then there must be whole bunch of rams in his guide area for BC residents. I am glad that MOE said no to this nonsense.