Stones age

[Skull Hunter]

With all of the discussion about "dink" rams, and how many prefer 6-7 year old rams not be harvested, legal or not, I thought it would be helpful and informative to start this thread.

I'm hoping that some of the more experienced sheep hunters would post some info on aging sheep. It would be nice to get some photos with drawings on them like from the spences bridge ram thread. I think it would also be good to have sheep of various ages to see horn growth from lambs right up to mountain warriors.

Thanks in advance for any help, I know aging sheep based on their annuli is not an exact science, but hopefully this thread will keep some of those good genes on the mountain.

[835]

Sheep............What up?
There is more fuss about sheep than any other critter.

[Skull Hunter]

Sheep............What up?
There is more fuss about sheep than any other critter.

I think it's because sheep hunting has it's own little niche, and people are pretty protective about it. I think sheep are one of the more majestic big game animals, and it can be hard for this not in the know to break into the hunt. Aging sheep is one of those things that you'll never learn until you're out there doing it, but it'd be nice to have some basis to go by.

[835]

Yup i aggree with you.But there is always a bunch of fuss obout them.
i have never hunted sheep because i am not ..... equipt for it :)

I think for thoes that have the balls to do it as long as they shoot a legal ram fine... If they want to pack a "Dink" ram out, fly at it!

if i ever got rich they would be the first thing i went after though. Just to see the country. I love thoes sheep story threads.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Yup i aggree with you.But there is always a bunch of fuss obout them.
i have never hunted sheep because i am not ..... equipt for it :)

I think for thoes that have the balls to do it as long as they shoot a legal ram fine... If they want to pack a "Dink" ram out, fly at it!

if i ever got rich they would be the first thing i went after though. Just to see the country. I love thoes sheep story threads.

There's usually not much disagreement with aging thinhorns.On the other hand...throw up a few pics of bighorns and let the bullets start to fly:-D

SSS

[bridger]

look back on some of the sheep threads last winter. there was quite a discussion on aging rams and a couple of good illustraisons

[Coming_out_heavy.]

Aging them is easy if you have the time. The key is being able to age them in a hurry if needed.

Just my opinion.

[bigwhiteys]

Aging them is easy if you have the time. The key is being able to age them in a hurry if needed.

Just my opinion.

LordBrowns ram is a good example of a very tough aging call... Here's why... That ram you call 9 years old, appears to be only an 8 year old ram. A good legal ram, don't get me wrong but wow! that was a risky personal decision to shoot unless you have the experience (you're a guide possibly?)...

I would have had to observe that ram for a long time, and even then may have still opted to pass, because of the 8 visible annuli rule or full curl... He meets neither requirement by definition in the regs.

He IS an 8 year old ram and legal by age but those are very tough rams to bring in for inspection, as it can go either way depending on the knowledge/experience of the CI.

There is no aging a "live" broomed off ram in a hurry, he can only give you clues to young/old at a quick qlance. You need to study those broomed rams before pulling the trigger in my opinion.

Carl

[Coming_out_heavy.]

LordBrowns ram is a good example of a very tough aging call... Here's why... That ram you call 9 years old, appears to be only an 8 year old ram. A good legal ram, don't get me wrong but wow! that was a risky personal decision to shoot unless you have the experience (you're a guide possibly?)...

I would have had to observe that ram for a long time, and even then may have still opted to pass, because of the 8 visible annuli rule or full curl... He meets neither requirement by definition in the regs.

He IS an 8 year old ram and legal by age but those are very tough rams to bring in for inspection, as it can go either way depending on the knowledge/experience of the CI.

There is no aging a "live" broomed off ram in a hurry, he can only give you clues to young/old at a quick qlance. You need to study those broomed rams before pulling the trigger in my opinion.

Carl



How old would you say this ram is?


http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy311/Coming_out_heavy/SheepHunt09221.jpg

[Coming_out_heavy.]

Same sheep. This is my first ram by the way. 10 years of hunting before I connected with one. I passed many rams due to not being able to age sheep properly. Some nice ex guide showed me how and life got alot easier.

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy311/Coming_out_heavy/SheepHunt09218.jpg

[mxracer328]

my guess is an 8 y/o ram, am i right?

[madrona sh]

I got 9 y/o ram.

[leadpillproductions]

i got 9 also

[Coming_out_heavy.]

My first ram there is 9.


OK here is lordbrowns ram. And I will explain how I was taught to age sheep. This works for me.

OK, the first ring we have near the broom is 2 years old. I start there. If he was tipped like my ram, you go back to the first good ring off the tip. Thats 2.

Next 3, 4, 5 and then we get to 6, this is important.

Imagine the top of the rams curl to be top dead center. If the ram is 6 years old AT OR BEFORE THE TOP DEAD CENTER he is a shooter. PERIOD. He will ALWAYS have 2 more years between the top dead center and the bases. I have tried this method on hundreds and hundreds of pictures, and many live rams now. Try it yourself and test it out.

If the ram is 6 more toward the bases than top dead center, leave him. He will be too young or too close to be worth the hassle.

Now here is how I get 9 on lordbrowns ram.

Sheep are born in May ish. This ram would have had to have grown too much horn since May to be an 8 year old ram. The 9 year line IS hard to see on this ram, harder than my ram I posted above, but its there. There is his May June July growth in there between his 9th ring and the skull. The older the sheep gets, the rings start to pile up and are harder to determine.

I am no guide, and Im not claiming to be an expert. This is just my take on sheep aging, based on the info I was taught by an ex guide that was nice enough to share his trade secret with me. Before this method I passed quite a few rams that, looking back, were legal.

If you think Im out to lunch feel free to say so. I can take it!

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy311/Coming_out_heavy/SheepAging.jpg



That little bush league looking guage I got on there at the 6 year line, thats to show the shoot or no shoot position of the 6 year ring. Like I said before, just the method I use.

[Coming_out_heavy.]

Here is the other ram using the same method. Its hard to draw a guage on there so... yah. He is 6 before the TDC position, bang bang.

Also, the 9 year line is near the base like lordbrowns.

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy311/Coming_out_heavy/Sheepaging2.jpg

[bigwhiteys]

Your other ram appears to be 9, and LordBrowns ram is still only 8. You are giving him credit for a year he doesn't have. Your 8 marker is the last annuli, he's grown that much from spring time to when you killed him, and would have stopped growing, thus forming a 9th annuli this winter.

Carl

[Maxx]

http://www.gundahoo.com/GalleryIMAGES/2009-Sheep018.JPG


Coming out heavy- that is an interesting method to determine its age based on the 6 year old line. Thanks for your input. Normally I count the "pies" between the lines....

Anyone care to age this ram?

[Coming_out_heavy.]

I age your ram at 8. Beauty ram btw. How heavy were those bases? Wow.

What do you mean "pies"?

[Coming_out_heavy.]

Your other ram appears to be 9, and LordBrowns ram is still only 8. You are giving him credit for a year he doesn't have. Your 8 marker is the last annuli, he's grown that much from spring time to when you killed him, and would have stopped growing, thus forming a 9th annuli this winter.

Carl

Well.... I hear what you are saying. I just think you are wrong.

Not that it really matters but the guide who we had the encounter with also aged it at 9 on his own, as well as the CI.

We aged it at 9 before it got shot.

Its interesting to see that what is cut and dry for some, isnt for others. I guess thats what this thread is all about though.

[BCrams]

heavy -

I get 9 with your ram.

I get 8 with lordbrowns. (not detracting from a great ram though as thats a spectacular ram for an 8 yr old)

Sheep lambs are typically born in mid June or there abouts. Not May.

The rear view of the ram gives a better perspective on the rings.

The ring you numbered 9 on lordbrowns is not a growth ring ... Thats looking at typical growth rate that ram has through his growing years as well as horns typically will have at that age. The darkened part past the 8 yr right to the base is what he grew this year. Keeps with the typical growth flow as well.

[bigwhiteys]

Well.... I hear what you are saying. I just think you are wrong.

You cannot count annuli that don't exist yet. You've marked his current growth this year as an annuli, it's not. As BCR stated that dark horn at the base is his growth from this year.

Carl

[Coming_out_heavy.]

Heres another view. I still get 9.

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy311/Coming_out_heavy/230.jpg

[kennyj]

Love this thread! Great info and awesome sheep horns!
kenny

[bigwhiteys]

Thanks, that's an even better view... It's now clearly 8, and you can see that in his pattern of growth as well. The pies between annuli gradually get smaller as the ram puts growth into horn mass, rather than horn length in preparation for being an active participant in the rut.

http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/lordbrownram.jpg

The horn between the 8th annuli and the base, is fresh growth from this year.

Carl

[lordbrown]

lol, yea hes gonna have a good ninth year.... look how much hes grown in just 2.5 months....

[lordbrown]

was being a touch sarcastic there :mrgreen: now take what hes grown this year already and multiply that by 4... youll see what im getting at, the 9th ring is near the skull.

[Coming_out_heavy.]

God you got nice graphics man!

I see where we are seeing it different. I dont agree that all that growth is possible since mid June as BCR said. Im saying the 9th ring is this one here.

lordbrown sent me this graphic a few mins ago.

This IS a good thread though, for everyone.

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy311/Coming_out_heavy/230numbered.jpg

[BlacktailStalker]

Your other ram appears to be 9, and LordBrowns ram is still only 8. You are giving him credit for a year he doesn't have. Your 8 marker is the last annuli, he's grown that much from spring time to when you killed him, and would have stopped growing, thus forming a 9th annuli this winter.

Carl

Wouldnt that make him 8.5 ?

[lordbrown]

9 years 2.5-3 months

[bigwhiteys]

I see where we are seeing it different. I dont agree that all that growth is possible since mid June as BCR said. Im saying the 9th ring is this one here.

No it's not... After this winter you'd have a ring to point to. That ram put that growth up from around may (this year) to the time he was killed, And it's on par with what his growth pattern suggests.

The CI that inspected this ram probably shouldn't be inspecting rams. It's a legal 8 year old ram, but fails to produce 8 VISIBLE annuli as stated in the regs. nor does it make full curl. This ram could have easily been seized by another incompetent CI if they went the "other" way and aged it younger (because it fails to have 8 visible annuli)

Carl

[BCbillies]

Most of the horn growth has occured in the last couple of months so the 9th ring would not officially show until next spring. He would have been 8 late this spring, 8 1/2 late this fall. Funny I just had this debate with four guys (including the C.I.) last week with a fresh set of horns and we all walked away in agreement but we weren't on the same page initially!

[BCRiverBoater]

I am no expert by any means but I was thinking 8.5 before seeing all the debate.

[Coming_out_heavy.]

Oh god, now it could have been seized......

Holy jumpin.........

Back to the drawing board!

[BCrams]

The other view shows the rings more clearly and going with bigwhiteys drawing is the correct aging process.

The one shown by lordbrown where the 9th is .... is false. Its not there. If the CI is saying thats where it is, that means she's wrong and all sheep potentially could be aged 1 yr older than they should be.

The 9th ring would not show up until next spring.

The ram wouldn't be siezed as its a legal 8 yr old ram by age.

The CI inspector in Ft Nelson should not be aging sheep. I have an inkling a lot of rams are being aged one year older than they should be.

[BCrams]

I see where we are seeing it different. I dont agree that all that growth is possible since mid June as BCR said. Im saying the 9th ring is this one here.



Alot more growth can occur than what your ram has. The ram I took has great growth in its 8th and 9th year.

I said, mid June is when sheep are born .... not May. Horn growing starts in April / May.

[lordbrown]

Okay, a sheep is born in the middle of May... so hes grown half his 9th ring in 2.5 months? Take that pie of horn and multiply by 4... hell multiply it by 3, for arguments sake and say he was born in March. His "9th" year is now going to be 1 1/2x the size of his 8th at this rate. My expert opinion is this sheep is 9 years, 72 days old... :wink:.

[lordbrown]

The "pies" get smaller with age.

[lordbrown]

wikipedia says sheep are born in May,but yea i agree May through June

[mod7rem]

Something to remember is which month you are shooting in. Last year I killed an 11 yr old ram in mid to late september, and being an older and small ram, his last few years of growth were tight. So with the long sept hair it can hide a ring or two on the right ram. 3 days later my brother and I found a very big but not full curl ram. I aged him at 8 for sure and possibly 9 depending on what was hidden in the hair. Once he was down we found that the last ring visible above the hair was the last one and he had done most of his growing for the year already. So dont count on anything beneath the hair. This ram was huge and the growth each year was consistently shrinking. So it is important to note the consistency of the spacing.

[pearljam]

I would say he is only 8 1/2 years old, the dark area of the horn is just new growth not an annuli,

When new horn grows it is dark and "soft" , as it grows it will lighten up and harden. What you are pointing at as the 9th ring is just brand new growth from this summer,

From what you are saying, that ram only grew approx 1cm of growth from may of this year till Aug. Doesnt make sence on a 9 year old ram, maybe a 11-12 year old would only grow that amount.

your pretty lucky that you got that ram passed the CI, there are not 8 countable annuli......

[Maxx]

God you got nice graphics man!

I see where we are seeing it different. I dont agree that all that growth is possible since mid June as BCR said. Im saying the 9th ring is this one here.

lordbrown sent me this graphic a few mins ago.

This IS a good thread though, for everyone.

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy311/Coming_out_heavy/230numbered.jpg


This is a good view, and it proves that BcRams and BW's are correct. Great ram though, no matter if he is 8 or 9.....

[oopswasthatyourdog?]

How old would you say this ram is?


http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy311/Coming_out_heavy/SheepHunt09221.jpg


We don't have these critters out here so I can honestly say that I have no clue to it's age but I would be willing to bet the farm that he won't be getting any older.........what do I win?

[lordbrown]

http://www.gundahoo.com/GalleryIMAGES/2009-Sheep018.JPG


Coming out heavy- that is an interesting method to determine its age based on the 6 year old line. Thanks for your input. Normally I count the "pies" between the lines....

Anyone care to age this ram?


Nice Ram :) I would say 8 years old from that picture, with a good amount of growth starting on his 9th year, however you never know what could be hiding in that hair. Regardless, nice ram, love the nose on 'em :-D

[mod7rem]

I think stating that this ram could have been seized is way off base. The regs defintion for full curl thinhorn reads "or which has attained the age of 8 yrs as evidenced by yearly horn growth annuli as determined by the Regional manager or designate". It doesnt say that every years growth has to visible. It could be broomed on both sides to the third year ring and a CI should still know what he is looking at. I think that is just false info.

[willy442]

This is a good view, and it proves that BcRams and BW's are correct. Great ram though, no matter if he is 8 or 9.....

Lord Brown; Those calling this Ram 8 are correct and you had by my guess a 50/50 chance on it passing through CI freely. This directly relates to a case the crown is still trying to win on a big horn ram that has been a contentuos issue on this site. The regulation states you must have 8 visible annuli and you cannot see them on your ram. I don't begrudge you for shooting the ram and I know he is 8 years old and a good ram. My point is you may have left Fort Nelson a lottery winner by still having your horns.

What disappoints me is from the time you first posted, I've been waiting for the experienced sheep hunters on the forum to make an educated call for the benefit of other sheep hunters and correctly age the ram. There are a number of people on here capable of that. In the case of your ram again (it's not an issue on legality) it is a good educational sample though for others.

Congratulations on a nice Stone Ram.

[willy442]

I think stating that this ram could have been seized is way off base. The regs defintion for full curl thinhorn reads "or which has attained the age of 8 yrs as evidenced by yearly horn growth annuli as determined by the Regional manager or designate". It doesnt say that every years growth has to visible. It could be broomed on both sides to the third year ring and a CI should still know what he is looking at. I think that is just false info.

The CI is not supposed to count what they can't see. Plain and simple

[Coming_out_heavy.]

I feel kinda dirty. I dont wanna be wrong.

If he is in fact 8 then I learned something today. I gotta go dig that thing out of browns freezer. Im gonna draw another goddam line on there for you A-holes.

[willy442]

I feel kinda dirty. I dont wanna be wrong.

If he is in fact 8 then I learned something today. I gotta go dig that thing out of browns freezer. Im gonna draw another goddam line on there for you A-holes.

Drawing a line won't help. 8 is 8 and he is a fine Ram. Like I said though a good one for others to go to school on.:)

[sako_300]

Well.... I hear what you are saying. I just think you are wrong.

Not that it really matters but the guide who we had the encounter with also aged it at 9 on his own, as well as the CI.

We aged it at 9 before it got shot.

Its interesting to see that what is cut and dry for some, isnt for others. I guess thats what this thread is all about though.

Not so cut and dry anymore? kind of scares me that someone is so adamantly wrong. I'd be surprised if the guide aged him at 9.

I'm no expert on sheep aging but there is NO way I would be calling this ram nine (9) years old. In fact, I probably would have let him walk...

[bridger]

nice ram. from the pic i would say he was 8 yrs and as willie says this is the type of ram that you really need to know what you are about when taking him. I would have been confident of his age at least being 8 when field judging him, but he is the type of ram that requires careful consideration before you pull the trigger. good decision on takiing him

[oopswasthatyourdog?]

Yes, but how do they taste?

[CanuckShooter]

there is just way too much BS around this aging business, even experience sheep hunters cannot agree:?......one of the main reasons to pass on sheep hunting.

[Coming_out_heavy.]

Not so cut and dry anymore? kind of scares me that someone is so adamantly wrong. I'd be surprised if the guide aged him at 9.

I'm no expert on sheep aging but there is NO way I would be calling this ram nine (9) years old. In fact, I probably would have let him walk...


Let it walk hey? Why exactly?

[stoneslinger]

I get 8 by looking at what I SEE.

[bigwhiteys]

Let it walk hey? Why exactly?
There was no margin for error on that ram, even though you thought you had a 1 year buffer, he was only 8 and not full curl... Rams such as the one you posted are confiscated on an almost yearly basis.

It all worked out for you, but I think the "age of harvest" data collected by our CI's should probably be used as toilet paper in the MOE offices. :)

Carl

[smoke-eater]

Its pretty clear that its only 8! Dont feel bad that you miss called the age. Sheep can be a tough thing to call.

Not sure if you were a member on this site when a guy showed pics of a ram he shot. He had it passed at the CI as an 8 year old ram. Really it was only 6..

He was called in to have it re-inspected and had it seized......

CI have no clue what they are doing!


http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=24798

[whitetailsheds]

Thanks, that's an even better view... It's now clearly 8, and you can see that in his pattern of growth as well. The pies between annuli gradually get smaller as the ram puts growth into horn mass, rather than horn length in preparation for being an active participant in the rut.

http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/lordbrownram.jpg

The horn between the 8th annuli and the base, is fresh growth from this year.

Carl

'zactly..............

[Slee]

Yep, only 8. legal ram, but i sure wouldn't want the hassle of trying to argue with a CO or no brained CI about it being 8 as it is not a full curl. I would have let him walk.

[Alpine85]

Carl, you sure post good arrows and numbers.....impressive

[Deaddog]

there is no way I would of let this ram walk, clearly as bigwhitey's pic shows he is 8.... which makes him legal...any inspector that would argue differently would clearly lose the battle when it was taken to the regional bio...

[lordbrown]

... I just dont know anymore lol :) however I do know that i scored him over 165 and perhaps when i get the official B&C measurer to score it maybe he can help me out with the age too. Letting a potential award book ram that is this heavy walk would just be silly.

[lordbrown]

http://www.synergyecology.ca/S8Msheep/documents/AXYS05_Draft_Stones_Sheep_PA.pdf
Sheep study, some interesting facts for sheep round these parts.

[bridger]

... I just dont know anymore lol :) however I do know that i scored him over 165 and perhaps when i get the official B&C measurer to score it maybe he can help me out with the age too. Letting a potential award book ram that is this heavy walk would just be silly.


that is a great ram no doubt about that. This point is that he is the type of ram that gets newbie sheep hunters in trouble is all some of us are saying. you obviously made the right decision on a great ram congrats!!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

The regulation states you must have 8 visible annuli and you cannot see them on your ram.


Congratulations on a nice Stone Ram.

Acutally, the first part of your post is not entirely correct.
Here is the actual wording from the Synopsis......


Mountain Sheep

- Full Curl Thinhorn Ram


- means any male thinhorn mountain sheep


whose horn tip extends upwards beyond the


forehead-nose bridge when viewed squarely


from the side or which has attained the age of


8 years as evidenced by yearly horn growth

annuli as determined by the Regional Manager



or designate. "


As far as I know the regs have never stated that there must be 8 annuli present. Using the tem "Evidence" leaves it open to interpretation to come up with a ram's age like we've done here....or more correctly...someone with solid experience in aging thinhorns like the Regional Manager.
After the big kafuffle that went on the the inspectors a while ago, I spoke to one just after their refresher/testing/training course and was told that if the estimated brooming length is more than 1 5/8" (on thinhorns) then the first visible annuli would be considered the second.


If there are not 8 visible annuli present then "I believe" it is supposed to be automatically passed over to the Regional Manager. I may not be 100% correct on this last statement as I'm not sure who the term "designate" can refer to.


Again, both sheep are very nice rams!


SSS

[Coming_out_heavy.]

there is just way too much BS around this aging business, even experience sheep hunters cannot agree:?......one of the main reasons to pass on sheep hunting.

Do not let this type of debate make you pass on sheep hunting. You cant learn without experience, and you cant get that by not doing it. Alot of sheep hunters would love it if you stayed home, and the more confused you are about aging, or finding rams, the happier they are.

I made a mistake, OK, but people who dont make mistakes are either full of shit or not doing anything. This debate is about whether or not the sheep was 9, not whether or not it was legal. The sheep is easily aged at 8 and that was never in debate here or on the mountain.

If anyone lets this sheep walk, they are either after a larger ram which is fine, or they are making a "cautious" mistake.

[mod7rem]

Thank you SSS, that is exactly what I posted earlier, there is no sense putting false statements on here to needlessly confuse people.

[sako_300]

I might have to rethink my letting it walk based on the above...

I was under the impression it was 8 clear rings. Guess a guy should really read the regs CLOSELY.

These threads are really helpful to make sure everyone is going into the field armed with the best knowledge available (from people with lots of experience) in addition to a rifle.

[stoneslinger]

I dont rely on counting the rings. I count the yearly growth sections contained within the rings. Damn things would make it easier if they stop brooming!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I might have to rethink my letting it walk based on the above...

I was under the impression it was 8 clear rings. Guess a guy should really read the regs CLOSELY.

These threads are really helpful to make sure everyone is going into the field armed with the best knowledge available (from people with lots of experience) in addition to a rifle.

For me...at this stage in my hunting career I'm looking to get 9 on a ram before I pull the pin on age alone. Feel way better leaving room for error.

SSS

[Deadshot]

if the estimated brooming length is more than 1 5/8" (on thinhorns) then the first visible annuli would be considered the second.



If this holds true, then what do you age this guy at?
The CO, inspector & myself all came up with the same age.
I'm maybe changing my mind now.
I,ve attached it, as putting it straight onto the screen is beyond me.:icon_frow

[pearljam]

Looks like 10 1/2

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg203/efdkelly/stone.jpg

[stoneslinger]

I see 9 years upon quick assessment.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Looks like 10 1/2

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2843&d=1283027564

I would agree.

Don't see enough brooming to make me think there is one missing:?

SSS

[d6dan]

I see a very quick, clear 9 years.
Thats what I see too.

[Deadshot]

Inspected at 9 1/2.
That would mean that the lamb tip is about 4-5 inches.
The passenger side looks to have a nub at about 1 inch, but when handled, there is no ring felt.

[d6dan]

Inspected at 9 1/2.
That would mean that the lamb tip is about 4-5 inches.
The passenger side looks to have a nub at about 1 inch, but when handled, there is no ring felt.

The #5 annuli looks like a false one..Its just not a prominent line.

[pearljam]

Inspected at 9 1/2.
That would mean that the lamb tip is about 4-5 inches.
The passenger side looks to have a nub at about 1 inch, but when handled, there is no ring felt.


I find that hard to belive. This ram has great genetics, but you dont see many lambs running around with 5" horns by their first winter......... Hell of a ram though!!!!!!!!!

[stoneslinger]

The number 5 looks to be the real deal. Way too much growth between 4 and 6 (on the picture) for it to be a false annuli.

[willy442]

Acutally, the first part of your post is not entirely correct.
Here is the actual wording from the Synopsis......


Mountain Sheep

- Full Curl Thinhorn Ram


- means any male thinhorn mountain sheep


whose horn tip extends upwards beyond the


forehead-nose bridge when viewed squarely


from the side or which has attained the age of


8 years as evidenced by yearly horn growth


annuli as determined by the Regional Manager



or designate. "


As far as I know the regs have never stated that there must be 8 annuli present. Using the tem "Evidence" leaves it open to interpretation to come up with a ram's age like we've done here....or more correctly...someone with solid experience in aging thinhorns like the Regional Manager.
After the big kafuffle that went on the the inspectors a while ago, I spoke to one just after their refresher/testing/training course and was told that if the estimated brooming length is more than 1 5/8" (on thinhorns) then the first visible annuli would be considered the second.


If there are not 8 visible annuli present then "I believe" it is supposed to be automatically passed over to the Regional Manager. I may not be 100% correct on this last statement as I'm not sure who the term "designate" can refer to.


Again, both sheep are very nice rams!


SSS




As stated above the phrase "AS EVIDENCED BY ANNULI". The average CI is not qualified to determine what annuli there may not be. They are to work on what is visible and if 8 are not visible they are to contact higher up the ladder for decisions. * visible annuli are what it takes to stay out of trouble gentlemen.
You for one have been very out spoken on the bighorn ram harvested a couple of years ago. A case which has yet to be settled because the crown is unable to produce a case on this very issue

[lordbrown]

I'm pretty damn sure thats a 10 year old ram.

[willy442]

Looks like 10 1/2

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg203/efdkelly/stone.jpg


This Ram is 10 years old or 10 and a couple months if you want. This just enforces many people aging sheep for the ministry, have no clue and from age structure of harvest they set the allowable harvest. What a joke in my opinion.

[stoneslinger]

My system aged him at a quick and dirty 9 years. Bang. No trouble for me!
I like to age them by what I SEE. This is especially important when looking through a spotter. If I let a 7 year old go that was really 8 I am OK with that. Always a pleasure to watch them. Don't have to always shoot them.

[sako_300]

removed as per SSS

[MattB]

"means any male thinhorn mountain sheep whose horn tip extends upwards beyond the forehead-nose bridge when viewed squarelyfrom the side"
What if the ram has a really tight curl and the tip comes up near the eye. Technically the tip does come above the forehead-nose bridge as it would be above the line but closer to the nose end. Is that a legal ram? Is this a bit of a grey area? I'm not saying I would shoot a ram like that, just wondering...

[BCbillies]

"means any male thinhorn mountain sheep whose horn tip extends upwards beyond the forehead-nose bridge when viewed squarelyfrom the side"
What if the ram has a really tight curl and the tip comes up near the eye. Technically the tip does come above the forehead-nose bridge as it would be above the line but closer to the nose end. Is that a legal ram? Is this a bit of a grey area? I'm not saying I would shoot a ram like that, just wondering...


That would be an illegal ram if it was under 8 years old. There was a court case of a tight curl ram (Phantom Ram) here in Terrace a few years ago and the ram was 6 years old with a tight curl that didn't break the bridge of the nose but it did break the plane if extended back.

[sako_300]

I wasn't there so I didn't actually witness anything....but you're probably right.....although I can't "reconsider it" once you've quoted it:wink:.
The ram's age is what this whole case is based upon.

SSS

See above...

[Stone Sheep Steve]

That would be an illegal ram if it was under 8 years old. There was a court case of a tight curl ram (Phantom Ram) here in Terrace a few years ago and the ram was 6 years old with a tight curl that didn't break the bridge of the nose but it did break the plane if extended back.

Know of a white sheep case that was similar.

SSS

[BCbillies]

Know of a white sheep case that was similar.

SSS


Here is the 2007 Phantom case. The ram was 5 1/2 years old and the horn was actually 1 cm shy using the Smithers Jig.

You have been sent this article from a friend
TERRACE NEWS
PHANTOM HORN AND CAPE FROM BATTLESHIP
by Merv Ritchie
Terrace - A very unusual case was heard in Terrace Court Thursday February 8. Displays, demonstrations and arguments of the most unusual nature had the court clerks gasping for good air.

It all had to do with a young Ram named Battleship. Known in the Dease Lake area, and by the local hunters as the “Phantom”, this Ram was taken down in September 2004, by Dave Moloney from Kitimat. Moloney started this case. It wasn't the BC Government attempting to prosecute, it was Moloney demanding the return of the Horns and the Cape of the Ram.

This case revolves around ownership. To determine who owned the Ram, alive, is quite simple. The law is very clear on this. The Crown (BC Government) owns all living animals within the borders of BC. Now if you shoot an animal it is yours (the shooter's) as long as it was done legally. So begin the arguments. Was this a legal kill or not? The Conservation Officer, Blair Thin, initially issued a ticket for shooting the Ram out of season. An easy call. Thin determined that it was too young and there is no season for a young Ram. Moloney disagreed, as he saw it, the horns were in a full curl and as per the regulations it was a legal kill so the Horns and Cape should be returned to him.

Moloney had a Ram tag and during the same hunting adventure had also taken down a Moose, Grizzly and Cariboo, all with tags. An avid hunter and sportsman this became an issue of integrity and pride. In court Moloney had claimed to have watched the Ram for years and waited for it to age. He also described how he had watched the Ram for hours the day he shot it.

The crux of the arguments came down to measuring the Horns, and the regulations that describe how they are to be measured. This would determine whether or not this was a legal kill. If it was, then the Cape and the horns should be returned to Moloney. If not they remain the property of the Crown.

Lawyer Daniel Carroll was representing Moloney in Court room number 1. The Crown's solicitor was Heidi Hughes. Carroll brought in his expert, Fred Harper from Kamloops. Harper retired in 1999 from being the Government's top man for inspecting and measuring sheep. In fact his thesis, to attain his degree in biology, was on the study of Big Horn Sheep. In a shocking move he agreed that, according to the guidelines provided by the Ministry, the sheep did not meet the the size requirements. Hughes brought in her own expert George Shultz from Smithers, who agreed with everything Harper demonstrated but went further and demonstrated an aluminum contraption called the Smithers Jig for measuring Horn length. Both experts placed the Ram's head in the Ministry approved wooden jig and demonstrated that it did not meet the guidelines. They both placed the age of the Ram at about 5 and a half years and both agreed that the Rams curl was only a centimeter short of meeting the Ministries specifications. They also both agreed that within a year the ram would clearly be within the legal limits.

Both experts described problems with the conservation efforts of the Ministry. The rules on the Horn size, they described, are to determine the animal's age at about 8 years. This animal was clearly going to meet the Ministries Horn size specifications at 6 years. The other problem with these guidelines is that the taking of younger Rams may be beneficial to the stock; not detrimental as is commonly perceived. The experts only quarreled over one single issue, how to take a proper and accurate measurement.

That is where a good lawyer can make the difference. Guidelines are just that: guidelines. Carroll went back to the regulations and attempted to demonstrate that the guidelines provided by the Ministry do not reflect to legislation. The guidelines describe a plane developed across the dorsal (top) surface, in conjunction with the Sagittal (vertical) plane, of the nose. This “Plane” is determined by using two points of the nasal area. Using a single point, again demonstrated by both experts, proved to show that the animal kill was in fact a legal kill, no matter where this single point was selected. But the guidelines demand the use of two points.

Carroll brought out the actual wording of the regulation, passed by the Government, and showed that in determining the legal size of a “thin horn Ram”, which Battleship was, the regulations make no reference to a plane or the using of a single or two point measurement system. He also read from the regulations specific wording regarding planes and points of measurement for Big Horn Sheep. There is no such wording for Thin Horn sheep and Carroll argued that the practices employed by the Ministry didn't even meet the Big Horn Regulations, explaining that, therefore, the methods the Ministry used were arbitrary.

In an attempt to be as confusing as possible, the lawyers then turned the arguments into a word play and definitions. Was the measuring system arbitrary? Well, what does arbitrary mean? Hughes brought out various case law examples to demonstrate what arbitrary means in the legal world. Is this a Criminal or Civil case? As it is Civil then it becomes a matter of “the balance of probability” and not a matter of “beyond a reasonable doubt”. And further which party does the burden of proof lie with? Well it appears the burden of proof falls on the applicant. In this case Moloney started it, to get the Cape and Horns back, so he is the applicant. It therefore falls to his Lawyer, Carroll, to provide the proof that the kill was in fact legal, and if not legal that the guidelines were not applied properly in accordance with the regulations demonstrating that Moloney was being treated in an arbitrary manner.

Long before the arguments were concluded the Rams head had thawed enough to permeate the courtroom with an odour that had the clerks, and the spectators, wishing that the lawyers would finish quickly so that the head could be removed and put back in a freezer.

The Judge in this case decided to reserve his decision. If the ruling is against the Crown then there needs to be a quick resolution to the regulations to provide some manner to ensure proper and equitable harvesting practices. This was part of Hughes argument: applying the law in a fair an equitable manner. Carroll's counter was that this application of the regulations was not legally supportable and therefore the remains rightfully belong to Moloney. Spending over $8500.00 on legal counsel and waiting over 2 and a half years, the Phantom/Battleship's, Horn and Cape is resting with the scales of justice.

A decision is awaited with great anticipation, on both sides.

http://www.northwebpress.com/terrace/articles/articles_158/Battleship1.jpg
The Phantom Battleship with his Ewe's during a younger day.
http://www.northwebpress.com/terrace/articles/articles_158/horns.jpg
The Horns in October 2004
http://www.northwebpress.com/terrace/articles/articles_158/smithers_jig.jpg
Aluminum Smithers Jig
http://www.northwebpress.com/terrace/articles/articles_158/wooden_jig.jpg
Approved Wooden Jig
http://www.northwebpress.com/terrace/articles/articles_158/wooden_jig_2.jpg
Head not aligned for measurement, side view

[Coming_out_heavy.]

A ram to avoid for sure.

[Deadshot]

I got him at 6.:-D
Tip comes to the base & he's not full curl.:confused:

[BCbillies]

I got him at 6.:-D
Tip comes to the base & he's not full curl.:confused:

Me too! Just stating what the experts said! :wink:

My initial recollection was that it broke the plane but that wasn't the case.

[bridger]

This Ram is 10 years old or 10 and a couple months if you want. This just enforces many people aging sheep for the ministry, have no clue and from age structure of harvest they set the allowable harvest. What a joke in my opinion.

age structure is no longer the basis of setting the harvest levels.

[willy442]

age structure is no longer the basis of setting the harvest levels.

Whats the latest formula then?

[Kitimat Killer]

Me too! Just stating what the experts said! :wink:

My initial recollection was that it broke the plane but that wasn't the case.

he ended up winning that case aqnd got his ram back not sure how but he did

kk

[bridger]

The allowable harvest at one time was set strictly on the average age of rams being harvested and there was not a ceiling on the number of rams that could be harvested. We now have a ceiling (annual allowable harvest) on the number of rams that can be harvested regardless of age. It is based on a percentage of the population. that percentage is less than 4%. the eight year rule in the regs allows thinhorn hunters to harvest old broomed rams that don't make the bridge of the nose. Currently the aah is 180 rams in 7b.

[trapntrav]

Acutally, the first part of your post is not entirely correct.
Here is the actual wording from the Synopsis......


Mountain Sheep

- Full Curl Thinhorn Ram


- means any male thinhorn mountain sheep


whose horn tip extends upwards beyond the


forehead-nose bridge when viewed squarely


from the side or which has attained the age of


8 years as evidenced by yearly horn growth


annuli as determined by the Regional Manager



or designate. "


As far as I know the regs have never stated that there must be 8 annuli present. Using the tem "Evidence" leaves it open to interpretation to come up with a ram's age like we've done here....or more correctly...someone with solid experience in aging thinhorns like the Regional Manager.
After the big kafuffle that went on the the inspectors a while ago, I spoke to one just after their refresher/testing/training course and was told that if the estimated brooming length is more than 1 5/8" (on thinhorns) then the first visible annuli would be considered the second.


If there are not 8 visible annuli present then "I believe" it is supposed to be automatically passed over to the Regional Manager. I may not be 100% correct on this last statement as I'm not sure who the term "designate" can refer to.


Again, both sheep are very nice rams!


SSS




to expand on this, if a ram has 8 visible rings that makes him 9 doesn't it? a ram with 7 rings is actually legal, ie. Lordbrown's ram....

[oopswasthatyourdog?]

Do you guys eat the meat....is it good?

[Coming_out_heavy.]

Do you guys eat the meat....is it good?


yes and hell yes.

[TSW]

Do you guys eat the meat....is it good?

Just fed my in-laws some sheep meat...they're not crazy about wild meat for the most part, but the mother-in-law said it was the best steak she's ever had...ever!

[bridger]

fresh ribs are the best part of the sheep imo

[BCrams]

X 2 what Bridger said.

Can't beat the ribs! Here's SSS slow cooking ribs over coals.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Greg_s_2010_Stone_002.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=20181&ppuser=1509)

[BCbillies]

Do you guys eat the meat....is it good?

If more guys tried sheep meat we'd most likely have more guys heading out into them hills! The day after a tag is cut is one of the highlights of the trip . . . feasting on tender sheep loins, caping the head, polar dip in glacial water, washing the cloths and basking in the sun! :-D

[Downwind]

If more guys tried sheep meat we'd most likely have more guys heading out into them hills! The day after a tag is cut is one of the highlights of the trip . . . feasting on tender sheep loins, caping the head, polar dip in glacial water, washing the cloths and basking in the sun! :-D

All these sheep threads had me stoked on trying a sheep hunt but this last comment is a little disconcerting. These are things I expect coming from the guys that hang out on Davies St in Van rather that the guys that spend their time chasing tail in the rockies :tongue:

[StoneChaser]

X 2 what Bridger said.

Can't beat the ribs! Here's SSS slow cooking ribs over coals.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Greg_s_2010_Stone_002.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=20181&ppuser=1509)

And trying to hide his camera...my little niece used to try the broadside hand behind the back trick....she was 2 though:mrgreen:

[BCbillies]

All these sheep threads had me stoked on trying a sheep hunt but this last comment is a little disconcerting. These are things I expect coming from the guys that hang out on Davies St in Van rather that the guys that spend their time chasing tail in the rockies :tongue:

Just a little insight into the "romance" aspect of an epic sheep hunt . . . for the most part what is said and done on the mountain stays on the mountain! :wink: