"dink rams"

[mod7rem]

This term has been used on here to describe unacceptable, although legal, sheep. What is an acceptable ram for the sheep hunters on here? And what is a "dink ram". Is it based on age, horn curl, horn length or B&C score. Thanks guys.

[pearljam]

A seasoned sheep hunter usually looks for age more then lenght for a trophy,

Most guys would call a 6-7 year old 'just' full curl ram a 'dink ram'.

It also depends on where your at in your sheep hunting career. If you have shot lots of nice rams over the year why would you want to shoot a smaller ram thats young????

But at the end of the day IMO as long as the animal is legal the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Rodd]

Definately within the eye of the beholder. Any legal Ram is a trophy in my opinion.....!

[pappy]

I agree with Rodd. Theres too many high and mighty hunters hiding behind their keyboards. I've made comments about one small deer that had been shot but it was tiny. Sheep hunting is hard so if I ever bring a ram home I'll be happy with my trophy and if all you can think about is dinks then this might be the wrong forum for you.

[one-shot-wonder]

I would say it depends on the size of one's dink I guess.....:confused:

[Hunt'n Guide]

Where I usually spend my summers it's mostly an age thing. A 6-7 yr old full curl is a dink and makes for sadness. But a guide also gets some ribbing for shooting a ram 33 or 34 inches unless there is some significant brooming.

[BCRiverBoater]

Any ram under 8 years old should be left on the mountain to grow and live a little. If the ram is mature (over 8) then the rest is up to the individual. I personally have left several legal rams on the mountain and I have yet to pull the trigger. I want a 8+ year old ram or I will go with out. I am sure I have also left some that were over 8 where I could not be certain and they were not over the nose. Better to be safe than sorry.

And for those who have killed a ram of any size, why go and shoot one smaller than you already have? Once I get that ram on the wall, it may be my last unless I keep finding bigger ones.

Can not wait to see Willy answer this one!

[leadpillproductions]

we for me if its over the bridge he goes down

[BromBones]

I've yet to harvest a ram in 6 attempts.

I've been within shooting range of a few full-curl 7 year olds, and a 9 year old ram with a pretty scrawny set of horns. Never had an urge to shoot. This year was the first time I've seen a ram that I wanted - a 10 year old that would have went 37-38'' and good bases. Didn't work out for me, but that's the kind of ram I want and will keep looking.

That said, I'm not gonna look down on a guy for taking the first legal ram he sees. I know the amount of work put in to even get yourself in a position to take a ram, so by all means pull the trigger if you want. You'll have your ram, good memories, and a sack full of the best meat you can find.

[behemoth]

I have yet to hunt sheep , but after I get a goat, thats next on the list.

And when that happens, the first legal one is going down!!

[mod7rem]

I started this thread because I hope guys dont get too affected by the ego's that can come up on this and other sites. I dont consider myself an expert sheep hunter but I have hunted sheep for the last 9 yrs. Last year my brother and I found an old, heavily broomed, small stones ram and before I decided to shoot I commented "I wonder what other sheep guys will say". He looked at me funny and said "who gives a ****, its up to you". He was right, although he is a small 11yr old ram, he was just as hard to get as the first two and he will look great on the wall with the rest.
I get a little put off when I read comments like "I passed up bucks that most guys would give their left nut for" or a nice story about shooting a 3 pt muley and then adding the disclaimmer "it was the smallest buck I have ever shot by far". This comes from guys who are trying to be helpful, and I am not trying to attack anyone, I just think no one is questioning your hunting prowess so leave the egos out. I once met a fellow novice sheep hunter and he told me "oh ya I could have shot tons of legal rams but they werent good enough for me". Thats fine but I didnt ask for the ego saver. I have hunted sheep so I understand how hard it is to get one. I dont know about the rest of you sheep hunters but me and the guys I have hunted sheep with have never seen "tons of legal rams". Hopefully other hunters will shoot what is legal and they are happy with, and not worry about the ego's of others. JMHO

[Kody94]

I used to work with a fellow that had a habit of denigrating everyone's "trophies". You could pretty much count on him to comment on someone else's buck with a dismissive "nice meat buck". It rubbed a lot of nerves raw.

Then, one year said fellow made a concerted effort to bag a bighorn ram. He put in a fair bit of time and effort scouting, and opening day he put one on the ground. When the time came for compulsory inspection, however, MOE did not agree with the fellow's assessment of legality, and rightfully siezed the ram.

To answer your original question...THAT was a "dink ram". :)

lol Sometimes karma is a bitch.

[bighornbob]

I started this thread because I hope guys dont get too affected by the ego's that can come up on this and other sites. I dont consider myself an expert sheep hunter but I have hunted sheep for the last 9 yrs. Last year my brother and I found an old, heavily broomed, small stones ram and before I decided to shoot I commented "I wonder what other sheep guys will say". He looked at me funny and said "who gives a ****, its up to you". He was right, although he is a small 11yr old ram, he was just as hard to get as the first two and he will look great on the wall with the rest.
I get a little put off when I read comments like "I passed up bucks that most guys would give their left nut for" or a nice story about shooting a 3 pt muley and then adding the disclaimmer "it was the smallest buck I have ever shot by far". This comes from guys who are trying to be helpful, and I am not trying to attack anyone, I just think no one is questioning your hunting prowess so leave the egos out. I once met a fellow novice sheep hunter and he told me "oh ya I could have shot tons of legal rams but they werent good enough for me". Thats fine but I didnt ask for the ego saver. I have hunted sheep so I understand how hard it is to get one. I dont know about the rest of you sheep hunters but me and the guys I have hunted sheep with have never seen "tons of legal rams". Hopefully other hunters will shoot what is legal and they are happy with, and not worry about the ego's of others. JMHO

With the 11 year old you shot, I doubt anyone would call that a dink regardless of the horn size or score. You got a nice mature ram and thats what most guys want to see.

When most guys start harping is when guys are killing 6 year old legal sheep.

BHB

[Coming_out_heavy.]

"Dink" covers both "banana" and "skater" rams, and even some legal rams.

Bananas are obviously those ones that have bananas on their heads.

Skaters are the ones that you have to talk yourself into and then out of shooting.

A legal "Dink" is a full curl, young or thin ram. Once you have a ram on the wall you want to avoid these.

A legal "Ram" is a good ram, but not quite a "hog" or "pig".

"Hogs" and "Pigs" are what most of these guys who have rams already are after.

You need to hunt hard to find the "Pigs" and "Hogs". You dont have to look to far to find a few "dinks" though.

I consider myself sort of a "dink" expert. Ive seen way more dinks than hogs or pigs.

Dinks arent all bad though. Ive found myself staring at one dink all day if there is nothing else around to look at.

[stoneslinger]

I was going to pull the pin on what looked to be a 2 or 3 year old one year. He had this tight little full curl that was waaaayyyyy above the nose on one side. To this day I kick myself for not removing him from the gene pool. He was the "dink of dinks".

[Kody94]

"I consider myself sort of a "dink" expert.

Dinks arent all bad though. Ive found myself staring at one dink all day if there is nothing else around to look at.

You know that's gonna end up in someone's signature line....

lol

[bigwhiteys]

With the 11 year old you shot, I doubt anyone would call that a dink regardless of the horn size or score. You got a nice mature ram and thats what most guys want to see.

When most guys start harping is when guys are killing 6 year old legal sheep.

Pretty much! An 11 year old ram, regardless of size is a hardened old mountain warrior, who's time has come, if not by you, by his age it's a pretty good chance it would have been winter anyways.

Carl

[SHAKER]

I think this falls into line like cat hunters....... you'll probably want to wack the first one out of the tree, but after that you get a little more discriminatory on what your look'n for if you ever get the chance again. It's all up to the guy do'n the shoot'n. Hell I don't know too many kids that were told to throw their first trout back in the lake cause it's too small...... But by this time in our lives I'm sure most of us release them "dinks" :wink:.

[SHAKER]

My opinion of a "dink ram" is anything a couple years old aka "banana rams"

[budismyhorse]

A dink in my books is a ram that, for some reason or another, is full curl however is under the accepted age of maturity (8).

leaving those fast growing rams on the mountain is the best way to ensure that there are larger rams in the future. Shooting a large ram that isn't quite 8 is robbing that exceptional gene pool from continuing on.

[JeremyCarrano302]

If its legal and I have a good clean shot its going down IMO
I hunt for meat not horns which there nuthing wrong with either way that's just the way I was raised

[BCRiverBoater]

"Dink" covers both "banana" and "skater" rams, and even some legal rams.

Bananas are obviously those ones that have bananas on their heads.

Skaters are the ones that you have to talk yourself into and then out of shooting.

A legal "Dink" is a full curl, young or thin ram. Once you have a ram on the wall you want to avoid these.

A legal "Ram" is a good ram, but not quite a "hog" or "pig".

"Hogs" and "Pigs" are what most of these guys who have rams already are after.

You need to hunt hard to find the "Pigs" and "Hogs". You dont have to look to far to find a few "dinks" though.

I consider myself sort of a "dink" expert. Ive seen way more dinks than hogs or pigs.

Dinks arent all bad though. Ive found myself staring at one dink all day if there is nothing else around to look at.

Wow did you just say that?
"I consider myself sort of a "dink" expert. Ive seen way more dinks than hogs or pigs.

Dinks arent all bad though. Ive found myself staring at one dink all day if there is nothing else around to look at"

You need to start looking at other things besides "dinks" And if you are a male then "dinks" are a little bad. You really need to stop staring at them. I can think of some other body parts on the other sex I would rather be staring at.

[BCRiverBoater]

If its legal and I have a good clean shot its going down IMO
I hunt for meat not horns which there nuthing wrong with either way that's just the way I was raised

Hunting for meat and not horns is perfectly legit. But hunting sheep for meat is not real productive. A lot of work and time for 60-80 lbs of meat at best. Sheep are hunted as trophies and to prove oneself that they can survive in the mountains for weeks on end. It is more of a feat than anything else. That is way sheep hunting and coming up empty is still so satisfying.

[budismyhorse]

SO here is a question right back then.

I killed a stones ram that most sheep hunters would pass on because he isn't long or scores well. We was aged 10yrs and has the battle scars to prove it. Chipped up, beat up horns.

There was a larger, but waaaay younger ram standing next to him.

Which ram is the "dink"???

Now, had I killed the ram standing next to him that was larger (score wise) I would have raised a few more eyebrows with that sheep, but I feel the correct ram came off the mountain and out of the gene pool that day.

A 10 yr old ram with 34 inch horns.......the Outfitter owes me a case of beer ;)

[KB90]

"Dink" covers both "banana" and "skater" rams, and even some legal rams.

Bananas are obviously those ones that have bananas on their heads.

Skaters are the ones that you have to talk yourself into and then out of shooting.

A legal "Dink" is a full curl, young or thin ram. Once you have a ram on the wall you want to avoid these.

A legal "Ram" is a good ram, but not quite a "hog" or "pig".

"Hogs" and "Pigs" are what most of these guys who have rams already are after.

You need to hunt hard to find the "Pigs" and "Hogs". You dont have to look to far to find a few "dinks" though.

I consider myself sort of a "dink" expert. Ive seen way more dinks than hogs or pigs.

Dinks arent all bad though. Ive found myself staring at one dink all day if there is nothing else around to look at.

hahahaha that was great, thanks for the info and laugh.

[BCRiverBoater]

SO here is a question right back then.

I killed a stones ram that most sheep hunters would pass on because he isn't long or scores well. We was aged 10yrs and has the battle scars to prove it. Chipped up, beat up horns.

There was a larger, but waaaay younger ram standing next to him.

Which ram is the "dink"???

Now, had I killed the ram standing next to him that was larger (score wise) I would have raised a few more eyebrows with that sheep, but I feel the correct ram came off the mountain and out of the gene pool that day.

A 10 yr old ram with 34 inch horns.......the Outfitter owes me a case of beer ;)

You did exactly as I would have. The 10 year old ram is a ram. The larger 6 year old is a "dink".

[Coming_out_heavy.]

Wow did you just say that?
"I consider myself sort of a "dink" expert. Ive seen way more dinks than hogs or pigs.

Dinks arent all bad though. Ive found myself staring at one dink all day if there is nothing else around to look at"

You need to start looking at other things besides "dinks" And if you are a male then "dinks" are a little bad. You really need to stop staring at them. I can think of some other body parts on the other sex I would rather be staring at.


I dont get what you are saying? Im talking small sheep here, what are you talkin about?

Some people.....

[Coming_out_heavy.]

Here is a dink. 8 year old ram full curl. Actually this is bordering on decent ram, just above a dink. In my opinion. We left this one there, and one that could have been his twin.
Thanks BCR for the tips.

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy311/Coming_out_heavy/162.jpg

[StoneChaser]

To me a dink ram is any ram 7yrs of age or less, regardless of horn length.

Taking an old weathered warrior is why I PERSONALLY hunt sheep, they've done the breeding and most of their growing, and there are not too many winters left...this has NOTHING to do with ego.

Others are free to do their thing, and I will not comment on a young ram (if ya can't say nothing nice.....).

A 34" 11yr old ram is a trophy in my books any day of the week!

Differences aside, I have the utmost respect for most GO's in that they actually will pass up young rams with better genetics in favour of the older rams in the band.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

According to "Willy" , I'm an expert on "dink" rams. If you have any questions please feel free to fire me a PM.:wink: I don't like to show my dinks in public.....anymore:redface:

SSS

[StoneChaser]

According to "Willy" , I'm an expert on "dink" rams. If you have any questions please feel free to fire me a PM.:wink: I don't like to show my dinks in public:redface:

SSS

I wouldn't sweat it!

A buddy and I were actually talking the other day about how one could end up shooting a young ram.

Throw a 40"+ hawg 350yds out with poor lighting or get a quick fleeting glimpse of an obviously legal monster after you've spooked him, and see how many with "egos":wink: wouldn't ground check him after pulling the trigger!

Then call BS to any others that say they'd pass until they counted!:mrgreen:

A buddy of mine shot a 40.5" w/14"+ bases once...it was 7 yrs old (CI'd at 6 though)...he never even looked for annuli....CLICK - BOOM (and he'd do it again tomorrow)!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I wouldn't sweat it!

A buddy and I were actually talking the other day about how one could end up shooting a young ram.

Throw a 40"+ hawg 350yds out with poor lighting or get a quick fleeting glimpse of an obviously legal monster after you've spooked him, and see how many with "egos":wink:wouldn't ground check him after pulling the trigger!

Then call BS to any others that say they'd pass until they counted!

I've seen a 43 1/2" ram 7 yr old ram(mounted not live) and Willy has admitted to shooting(well guiding) a 6 yr old B&C ram.....so believe me, I'm not sweating it. My post was a little "tongue in cheek".
I've shown my dinks before in public...and I'm sure I'll do it again:-D.


Hell! I've even "exposed myself" in BC Outdoors....apparently:mrgreen:.

It seems to me that people fall off their high horse at different levels....but one thing is for sure is that everyone eventually falls off:wink:...and, as always, it ends up as "my dink is bigger than your dink".

So Men!! Stand up be proud and show us your "dinks"!:mrgreen:

SSS

[SHAKER]

[quote= Shooting a large ram that isn't quite 8 is robbing that exceptional gene pool from continuing on.[/quote]

Hmmm....... so they need to turn 8 to breed? I might not have been educated that good but I'm sure his genes will be the same at 6yrs and at 8yrs

[BCbillies]

SO here is a question right back then.

I killed a stones ram that most sheep hunters would pass on because he isn't long or scores well. We was aged 10yrs and has the battle scars to prove it. Chipped up, beat up horns.

There was a larger, but waaaay younger ram standing next to him.

Which ram is the "dink"???

Now, had I killed the ram standing next to him that was larger (score wise) I would have raised a few more eyebrows with that sheep, but I feel the correct ram came off the mountain and out of the gene pool that day.

A 10 yr old ram with 34 inch horns.......the Outfitter owes me a case of beer ;)


Sounds like my first ram. 10 1/2 year old, a stretch to call him 35", no horn mass, badly beaten . . . but compared to most others rams showing up on this site (and my partners) he is a "dink" on the wall! :wink: Took me 6 sheep hunts to get this boy and it doesn't really matter who says what!

[BCRiverBoater]

To me a dink ram is any ram 7yrs of age or less, regardless of horn length.

Taking an old weathered warrior is why I PERSONALLY hunt sheep, they've done the breeding and most of their growing, and there are not too many winters left...this has NOTHING to do with ego.

Others are free to do their thing, and I will not comment on a young ram (if ya can't say nothing nice.....).

A 34" 11yr old ram is a trophy in my books any day of the week!

Differences aside, I have the utmost respect for most GO's in that they actually will pass up young rams with better genetics in favour of the older rams in the band.

Could not have said it better myself. I agree with this whole heartedly.

[TheDuckinator]

Any ram in my opinion is a trophy, because the amount of physical and mental work it would take to connect on one in any level. But thanks for my new sig haha I just had to :p

[steepNdeep]

"I consider myself sort of a "dink" expert. Ive seen way more dinks than hogs or pigs.

Dinks arent all bad though. Ive found myself staring at one dink all day if there is nothing else around to look at.

:lol::lol::lol: That right there is some funny sh!t!!! Ever been to the west end? You'll find lots of other dink experts there... :wink:

[willy442]

According to "Willy" , I'm an expert on "dink" rams. If you have any questions please feel free to fire me a PM.:wink: I don't like to show my dinks in public.....anymore:redface:

SSS

No need to pout. Rams let you hold a real one this year.:)

[Jelvis]

dinky is a term used from older generations, dinky toys, were toys of larger things like a big truck made the same dimensions but tiny for little people to play with.
If your the size of Shack the basket ball player at seven foot two tall and three hundred pounds things seem smaller, than if you were five foot nothing, and 130 pounds things would appear larger.
It's all relative

[Hunt'n Guide]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder where "dink" rams are concerned.

Last summer I told a client to pass on a legal ram because in my eyes, (and according to pretty much everyone here's opinion) it was a "dink". We ended up not getting a ram on that hunt. Would he have been happy with the ram? Probably not really compared with the rest of the rams taken that hunt, but he certainly wasn't a happy camper when it came time to go home. I'd bet money he'd rather have shot the 7 yr old squeaker full curl rather than go home empty handed.

Another time I told the client to take the 7 yr old 35" ram on the second to last day. It was our third day on actual hunting on that hunt due to crap weather. Was I happy? Not really. Was he? Absolutely, couldn't have been happier.

This is hunting in an area with virtually no resident pressure. Sometimes a "dink" is a good ram regardless of where you are. I wouldn't be too critical of anyone shooting anything that is clearly legal in any of the high pressure areas. Congratulations to anyone on any well earned ram!

[willy442]

OK I'm always in the penalty box on this subject, so I'm going to throw some suggestions out on the DINK RAM subject and you decide.

1. If you have to talk yourself into shooting the ram you're looking at.
It's probably a dink.

2. If it has lamb tips and you have to stretch horn length to get over the nose.
It is a dink.

3. If you can only count six or seven rings and you run out of lamb tipped horn;
It's most likely a dink.

4. If you have two or more friends with a bigger Ram than yours.
Yours might be a dink.

4a If you have a single friend with a ram bigger than yours and you refer to it as a dink;
Yours is definately a dink.

5 If the CI dude is undecided if your ram is 6 or 7.
It is a dink.

5a. If he's confused over 6 to 10 as usual.
Your is probably not a dink.

6. If you tell friends. I shot it because it was my first ram.
It's probably a dink.

7 If you have taken 3 or more Stone Rams.
One will be a dink.

8 If you are a resident hunter with only one ram.
Chances are good it's a dink. But it's alright because you're going to get a bigger dink one day.

9. If you should have your ram conficated by the CO's and called a dink.
Chances are good they made a mistake so challenge the dink status

10. If from this post you determine your ram as a dink.
Please post front and side views of the horns on site declaring your dink status. This is called helping sheep by keeping dinks on the mountain, other residents can learn from your photos.:)

[Krico]

I once met a fellow novice sheep hunter and he told me "oh ya I could have shot tons of legal rams but they werent good enough for me". Thats fine but I didnt ask for the ego saver. I have hunted sheep so I understand how hard it is to get one. I dont know about the rest of you sheep hunters but me and the guys I have hunted sheep with have never seen "tons of legal rams". Hopefully other hunters will shoot what is legal and they are happy with, and not worry about the ego's of others. JMHO

Well put.

I have several friends and acquaintances who hunt sheep. Most all have had some level of success, some more than others. I have never been told by anyone whom I trust that they saw "tons of legal rams" either. Total bs.

It's no wonder most of them don't post their pics and stories on this site, whether a big ram or "dink", as they can't be bothered with all the ego stroking sheep police.

[killman]

OK I'm always in the penalty box on this subject, so I'm going to throw some suggestions out on the DINK RAM subject and you decide.

1. If you have to talk yourself into shooting the ram you're looking at.
It's probably a dink.

2. If it has lamb tips and you have to stretch horn length to get over the nose.
It is a dink.

3. If you can only count six or seven rings and you run out of lamb tipped horn;
It's most likely a dink.

4. If you have two or more friends with a bigger Ram than yours.
Yours might be a dink.

4a If you have a single friend with a ram bigger than yours and you refer to it as a dink;
Yours is definately a dink.

5 If the CI dude is undecided if your ram is 6 or 7.
It is a dink.

5a. If he's confused over 6 to 10 as usual.
Your is probably not a dink.

6. If you tell friends. I shot it because it was my first ram.
It's probably a dink.

7 If you have taken 3 or more Stone Rams.
One will be a dink.

8 If you are a resident hunter with only one ram.
Chances are good it's a dink. But it's alright because you're going to get a bigger dink one day.

9. If you should have your ram conficated by the CO's and called a dink.
Chances are good they made a mistake so challenge the dink status

10. If from this post you determine your ram as a dink.
Please post front and side views of the horns on site declaring your dink status. This is called helping sheep by keeping dinks on the mountain, other residents can learn from your photos.:)


Someone seems to be a "Dink" expert.:-DDid you hold a lot of "dinks" while guiding?:mrgreen::mrgreen:

[Coming_out_heavy.]

Some sheep are tricky to guage. I remember on one of my first sheep hunts, way up the Turnagain, we bumped into 2 dudes who had 2 rams. Both rams were tipped, and 7/8 curl. I, being a new hunter, asked if they were legal. The one guy laughed and said, "son, thats a 40 inch ram". Turns out they were both 40 inch sheep, and were both 9 years old.

So.......... yeah.... not dinks, but could easily be passed up by a novice.

Ive never made it back to that area, sure would love to.

[Deaddog]

funny how we as a group moan and bitch about outfitters, talk about how we must meet our allocation targets to keep what we have and then trash guys when they shoot a sheep that doesn't measure up to our personal standards... if you look at the regional figures in both six and seven the amount of young rams being taken is a low percentage..despite what some say about the sustainablity of our aah, I will stick with the science, our current harvest's are sustainable, anyone who takes a legal ram is to be congratulated and once you do take that ram perhaps think about how you can get more involved and help to keep sheep on the mountains, DD

[Rodd]

I agree with Deaddog. Well put!

[SHAKER]

funny how we as a group moan and bitch about outfitters, talk about how we must meet our allocation targets to keep what we have and then trash guys when they shoot a sheep that doesn't measure up to our personal standards... if you look at the regional figures in both six and seven the amount of young rams being taken is a low percentage..despite what some say about the sustainablity of our aah, I will stick with the science, our current harvest's are sustainable, anyone who takes a legal ram is to be congratulated and once you do take that ram perhaps think about how you can get more involved and help to keep sheep on the mountains, DD

Well put........ If it aint hurt'n noth'n then quit complaining. If it is hurting something then have the #'s to back it up! Even then it usually falls on def ears though.

Still say a dink ram is a "banana horned ram".

[BCRiverBoater]

Some sheep are tricky to guage. I remember on one of my first sheep hunts, way up the Turnagain, we bumped into 2 dudes who had 2 rams. Both rams were tipped, and 7/8 curl. I, being a new hunter, asked if they were legal. The one guy laughed and said, "son, thats a 40 inch ram". Turns out they were both 40 inch sheep, and were both 9 years old.

So.......... yeah.... not dinks, but could easily be passed up by a novice.

Ive never made it back to that area, sure would love to.

Might have to chat about that one. I have wanted to go back as well.

[The Hermit]

If the ram is legal, dink or not, and since the meat is as good as we know it is, why wouldn't you take a legal younger tastier ram?

Hummm I think only one guy mentioned anything about the meat in this thread! Sounds like you sheep hunters are all about the bone! LOL <razzz>

[Stone Sheep Steve]

If the ram is legal, dink or not, and since the meat is as good as we know it is, why wouldn't you take a legal younger tastier ram?

Hummm I think only one guy mentioned anything about the meat in this thread! Sounds like you sheep hunters are all about the bone! LOL <razzz>

After cooking up a couple of sheep roasts the other day, I regret not shooting the other 8 yr old in the band with BCR's ram. Last day of the hunt.


SSS

[BCrams]

After cooking up a couple of sheep roasts the other day, I regret not shooting the other 8 yr old in the band with BCR's ram. Last day of the hunt.


SSS

Plenty of time to shoot him too :-)

[budismyhorse]

The whole intent behind the 8 yr old and full curl regs is to shoot mature rams.

All people are saying is to have the dicipline to harvest only mature sheep.....from what DD is saying, it isn't a problem right now, but the more education novice sheep hunters get the better when it comes to mature ram harvest. Leaving immature rams (legal or not) benefits ALL sheep hunters, and by doing so, you are actually benefiting sheep and sheep hunting.

Its purely just a mindset some sheep hunters have, it doesn't mean its the only way to hunt, for some, taking any ram is all they require. This thread is more about imparting some opinion and advice to one side of the coin.....which is exactly why this forum is in place. Everyone has the right to an opinion.

[Kody94]

After cooking up a couple of sheep roasts the other day, I regret not shooting the other 8 yr old in the band with BCR's ram. Last day of the hunt.


SSS

My wife's favorite game meat, by a wiiiide margin, is stones sheep. She gets upset if (when!) I come home empty handed.

What's wrong with taking the odd "meat ram" anyway, eh?

[mooseknuckler]

Posted by stonechaser:


To me a dink ram is any ram 7yrs of age or less, regardless of horn length.


then on pg 4

A buddy of mine shot a 40.5" w/14"+ bases once...it was 7 yrs old (CI'd at 6 though)...he never even looked for annuli....CLICK - BOOM (and he'd do it again tomorrow)!

So in summary a 40"+ ram that is 7yrs or less is a Big Dink, and a less than 40" and 7yrs or less is a Little Dink?

[Coming_out_heavy.]

40 inch rams are "pigs" or "hogs".

If one of these guys tells you he wouldnt shoot that.....

Id throw dirt in my partners eyes then shoot it while hes sorting that mess out.

[StoneChaser]

Posted by stonechaser:


then on pg 4


So in summary a 40"+ ram that is 7yrs or less is a Big Dink, and a less than 40" and 7yrs or less is a Little Dink?

Once it's over 12" it's technically not a dink anymore....it's called a FOOT!

[bridger]

The whole intent behind the 8 yr old and full curl regs is to shoot mature rams.

All people are saying is to have the dicipline to harvest only mature sheep.....from what DD is saying, it isn't a problem right now, but the more education novice sheep hunters get the better when it comes to mature ram harvest. Leaving immature rams (legal or not) benefits ALL sheep hunters, and by doing so, you are actually benefiting sheep and sheep hunting.

Its purely just a mindset some sheep hunters have, it doesn't mean its the only way to hunt, for some, taking any ram is all they require. This thread is more about imparting some opinion and advice to one side of the coin.....which is exactly why this forum is in place. Everyone has the right to an opinion.

the old 8 yr old ram rule was also put into effect as an artificial harvest control similiar to 4pt mule deer, 6pt elk etc. moe biologists have always been of two minds about the importance of age in the harvest. serious sheep hunters (myself included) almost always prefer to shoot older rams as a matter of personal preference as sheep hunters of my generation were always told that you were less than an accomplished sheep hunter if you shot a ram under 8 yrs old. in truth any full curl ram that is taken is by fair chase is a great trophy regardless of age or horn length. just my opinion.

[Coming_out_heavy.]

My wife's favorite game meat, by a wiiiide margin, is stones sheep. She gets upset if (when!) I come home empty handed.

What's wrong with taking the odd "meat ram" anyway, eh?


Nothing at all!!! And yes, he brought the regs in there, and a mickey of rum too!

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy311/Coming_out_heavy/SheepHunt09263.jpg

[SHAKER]

Once it's over 12" it's technically not a dink anymore....it's called a FOOT!


LOL....... Thanks I actually needed a laugh today.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Okay, here's a scenario for everyone..........

Prime sheep country, you're slowly picking your way along glassing as you go. Something catches your eye. It's a 5yr old "dink" ram. You immediately hit the ground and then slowly inch forward and peek over a nearby rock with your binos. Along with this dink ram there are 11 others bedded at around the 250 yrd mark.......including one "bruiser":shock:. His horns are massive and carry their weight well, extending waaaaaay down his face before they easily break the bridge of his nose. You duck back down, pull out the spotter to get a better look to help the drool flow a little faster:-D.
A quick assessment as you figure his bases are over 15 1/2" and you estimate his horn length @ 41"plus! A ram of a lifetime....easily a B&C ram(c173 5/8!! But upon further investigation you can only get 7 yrs on him. Can't be right:?. The ram gets up, has a pee, turns and beds down to give you an even better look at his massive horns, clearly showing you he's only 7 yrs old.
To make this easier I'm going to ask who here let's him walk???:confused:

This is a real scenario that happened to an HBC member a couple of yrs ago...so it can happen.

SSS

[mod7rem]

As soon as I saw with the binos that he was full curl, the spotter wouldnt have come out, it would have been my rifle, followed shortly by a bullet.

[BCbillies]

To make this easier I'm going to ask who here let's him walk???:confused:

This is a real scenario that happened to an HBC member a couple of yrs ago...so it can happen.

SSS

I'll bet my left nut that nobody on this site lets him walk and that no guide will let him walk either. The only guys letting this ram walk are those that already cut a tag a day or two earlier! :wink: This ram will not live to see his 8th year as long a hunter gets to within shooting range.

[Kody94]

Okay, here's a scenario for everyone..........

Prime sheep country, you're slowly picking your way along glassing as you go. Something catches your eye. It's a 5yr old "dink" ram. You immediately hit the ground and then slowly inch forward and peek over a nearby rock with your binos. Along with this dink ram there are 11 others bedded at around the 250 yrd mark.......including one "bruiser":shock:. His horns are massive and carry their weight well, extending waaaaaay down his face before they easily break the bridge of his nose. You duck back down, pull out the spotter to get a better look to help the drool flow a little faster:-D.
A quick assessment as you figure his bases are over 15 1/2" and you estimate his horn length @ 41"plus! A ram of a lifetime....easily a B&C ram(c173 5/8!! But upon further investigation you can only get 7 yrs on him. Can't be right:?. The ram gets up, has a pee, turns and beds down to give you an even better look at his massive horns, clearly showing you he's only 7 yrs old.
To make this easier I'm going to ask who here let's him walk???:confused:

This is a real scenario that happened to an HBC member a couple of yrs ago...so it can happen.

SSS

To be completely honest, if I saw legit 15.5" bases and more than 40" on the curl that clearly breaks the bridge of the nose, I would never have even bothered to count rings. Bang! I would be surprised to find out later that it was only 7.

A buddy of mine walked away from a ram that was over 40" and well clear of the nose because he wanted to hold out for something heavier and broomed (I had already cut my tag on that trip). So it does happen. Mind you, this guy has also been known to do an 8 day backpacking trip for Stones with just a sil-shelter and NO sleeping bag, so... ;)

[Coming_out_heavy.]

Okay, here's a scenario for everyone..........

Prime sheep country, you're slowly picking your way along glassing as you go. Something catches your eye. It's a 5yr old "dink" ram. You immediately hit the ground and then slowly inch forward and peek over a nearby rock with your binos. Along with this dink ram there are 11 others bedded at around the 250 yrd mark.......including one "bruiser":shock:. His horns are massive and carry their weight well, extending waaaaaay down his face before they easily break the bridge of his nose. You duck back down, pull out the spotter to get a better look to help the drool flow a little faster:-D.
A quick assessment as you figure his bases are over 15 1/2" and you estimate his horn length @ 41"plus! A ram of a lifetime....easily a B&C ram(c173 5/8!! But upon further investigation you can only get 7 yrs on him. Can't be right:?. The ram gets up, has a pee, turns and beds down to give you an even better look at his massive horns, clearly showing you he's only 7 yrs old.
To make this easier I'm going to ask who here let's him walk???:confused:

This is a real scenario that happened to an HBC member a couple of yrs ago...so it can happen.

SSS

Bang bang.

[Shade Tree]

There are many banana head 3/4 californias that guys are shooting which fit the 'dink' criteria too, these are usually 4 years old, but to each his own...

[Stone Sheep Steve]

To be completely honest, if I saw legit 15.5" bases and more than 40" on the curl that clearly breaks the bridge of the nose, I would never have even bothered to count rings. Bang! I would be surprised to find out later that it was only 7.

A buddy of mine walked away from a ram that was over 40" and well clear of the nose because he wanted to hold out for something heavier and broomed (I had already cut my tag on that trip). So it does happen. Mind you, this guy has also been known to do an 8 day backpacking trip for Stones with just a sil-shelter and NO sleeping bag, so... ;)


The actual green base measurements were 15 5/8":shock:.

8 days no sleeping bag?? "Hardcore" isn't strong enough of a word to describe him:?.

SSS

[budismyhorse]

To make this easier I'm going to ask who here let's him walk???:confused:

This is a real scenario that happened to an HBC member a couple of yrs ago...so it can happen.

SSS

The fact is that ram gets plugged.

However strictly speaking from a biological point of view......those are the rams you want on the hill during breeding season. Robust genes.

We could debate this all day long, its just hunting and no two people see eye to eye with respect to what to do and how to do it.

I know a fella who will not kill a ram that can be seen from a road no matter how large...........now that is another debate all together.

[Coming_out_heavy.]

8 days no bag is beyond savage. I dont even get why he would do that.

[Maxx]

Okay, here's a scenario for everyone..........

Prime sheep country, you're slowly picking your way along glassing as you go. Something catches your eye. It's a 5yr old "dink" ram. You immediately hit the ground and then slowly inch forward and peek over a nearby rock with your binos. Along with this dink ram there are 11 others bedded at around the 250 yrd mark.......including one "bruiser":shock:. His horns are massive and carry their weight well, extending waaaaaay down his face before they easily break the bridge of his nose. You duck back down, pull out the spotter to get a better look to help the drool flow a little faster:-D.
A quick assessment as you figure his bases are over 15 1/2" and you estimate his horn length @ 41"plus! A ram of a lifetime....easily a B&C ram(c173 5/8!! But upon further investigation you can only get 7 yrs on him. Can't be right:?. The ram gets up, has a pee, turns and beds down to give you an even better look at his massive horns, clearly showing you he's only 7 yrs old.
To make this easier I'm going to ask who here let's him walk???:confused:

This is a real scenario that happened to an HBC member a couple of yrs ago...so it can happen.

SSS


You would be crazy not to shoot this ram:wink:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

You would be crazy not to shoot this ram:wink:

I've been called crazy before but I would still shoot that ram:rolleyes:.

BTW-The scenario is actually not true but the distance, measurements and age are.

SSS

[Krico]

As soon as I saw with the binos that he was full curl, the spotter wouldnt have come out, it would have been my rifle, followed shortly by a bullet.

Exactly.

And if I have no tag, the guy I'm hunting with better pull that trigger. Opportunities like that are not easy to come by.

[stoneslinger]

OK I'm always in the penalty box on this subject, so I'm going to throw some suggestions out on the DINK RAM subject and you decide.

1. If you have to talk yourself into shooting the ram you're looking at.
It's probably a dink.

2. If it has lamb tips and you have to stretch horn length to get over the nose.
It is a dink.

3. If you can only count six or seven rings and you run out of lamb tipped horn;
It's most likely a dink.

4. If you have two or more friends with a bigger Ram than yours.
Yours might be a dink.

4a If you have a single friend with a ram bigger than yours and you refer to it as a dink;
Yours is definately a dink.

5 If the CI dude is undecided if your ram is 6 or 7.
It is a dink.

5a. If he's confused over 6 to 10 as usual.
Your is probably not a dink.

6. If you tell friends. I shot it because it was my first ram.
It's probably a dink.

7 If you have taken 3 or more Stone Rams.
One will be a dink.

8 If you are a resident hunter with only one ram.
Chances are good it's a dink. But it's alright because you're going to get a bigger dink one day.

9. If you should have your ram conficated by the CO's and called a dink.
Chances are good they made a mistake so challenge the dink status

10. If from this post you determine your ram as a dink.
Please post front and side views of the horns on site declaring your dink status. This is called helping sheep by keeping dinks on the mountain, other residents can learn from your photos.:)

11. If you walk into someones camp with a pale " look of death" on your face, whip out the head of a ram from your back pack and have to ask "Do you think he is legal"? then for sure it is a dink. It was a dink. Many were dinks. Many were not even legal by age either. I would like to have known how the inspectors handled that (this was before the days of the private contractor)

[Mik]

I agree with Rodd. Theres too many high and mighty hunters hiding behind their keyboards. I've made comments about one small deer that had been shot but it was tiny. Sheep hunting is hard so if I ever bring a ram home I'll be happy with my trophy and if all you can think about is dinks then this might be the wrong forum for you.

Well put! Any legal ram is good enough!!

[Ridgeback Fan]

I agree with Rodd. Theres too many high and mighty hunters hiding behind their keyboards. I've made comments about one small deer that had been shot but it was tiny. Sheep hunting is hard so if I ever bring a ram home I'll be happy with my trophy and if all you can think about is dinks then this might be the wrong forum for you.

This comment is bang on and sums up my reasons for not posting at all.

[BCbillies]

This comment is bang on and sums up my reasons for not posting at all.

That's too bad . . . we're missing out on hearing many great adventures whether it be sheep hunts or other hunts!

[dutchie]

I have personally seen pictures from 4 members of this site that have shot 38-41" rams and will not post the hunt on this site.

I am glad they they have come in and shown me pictures and BS'd for an hour or so about the hunt and everything to do with it!

It really makes me appreciate stories like BCrams and Stone Sheep Steve, coming-out-heavy's stories, TWS,. Gbear and others that have posted.

I will redirect everyone to Srupp's hunt last year... read the thread.. too many uptight people that ruin it for many other people!

Dutchie

[Hunt'n Guide]

Okay, here's a scenario for everyone..........

Prime sheep country, you're slowly picking your way along glassing as you go. Something catches your eye. It's a 5yr old "dink" ram. You immediately hit the ground and then slowly inch forward and peek over a nearby rock with your binos. Along with this dink ram there are 11 others bedded at around the 250 yrd mark.......including one "bruiser":shock:. His horns are massive and carry their weight well, extending waaaaaay down his face before they easily break the bridge of his nose. You duck back down, pull out the spotter to get a better look to help the drool flow a little faster:-D.
A quick assessment as you figure his bases are over 15 1/2" and you estimate his horn length @ 41"plus! A ram of a lifetime....easily a B&C ram(c173 5/8!! But upon further investigation you can only get 7 yrs on him. Can't be right:?. The ram gets up, has a pee, turns and beds down to give you an even better look at his massive horns, clearly showing you he's only 7 yrs old.
To make this easier I'm going to ask who here let's him walk???:confused:

This is a real scenario that happened to an HBC member a couple of yrs ago...so it can happen.

SSS

I'm telling my guy to shoot.

Sure we all want 8 yrs or better, but, the 8 yr rule was developed because that is the age where ram mortality increases significantly due to winterkill after the rut. The biology says we may as well shoot all of the 8 year olds because not many of them will make the winter and the 7 year olds will become breeders next fall.
The actual age of 8 is just a statistic. The immportant factor is full participation in rutting behavior. The "hog" 7 yr old is going to be a dominant ram due to his horn size and will be as likely to rut hard enough to negatively impact his chances of surviving the winter. Giving him a chance to pass on his genes is a noble idea but I'm not waiting 8 years to shoot his sons.

I'm shooting the pig because there is a serious chance that he's not going to be there for next season.

[kodiak10]

This year I shot my first ram full curl by a couple inches,was 6 years old. The hunt was harder than anything I have ever hunted.Being stuck in the tent for 31 hrs because of the weather was not to enjoyable. I have got some big bulls and deer over the years,which some may consider bigger trophies compared to the sheep.Everybody is allowed there own opinion and to me any sheep is a trophy in my book.

[bridger]

I'm telling my guy to shoot.

Sure we all want 8 yrs or better, but, the 8 yr rule was developed because that is the age where ram mortality increases significantly due to winterkill after the rut. The biology says we may as well shoot all of the 8 year olds because not many of them will make the winter and the 7 year olds will become breeders next fall.
The actual age of 8 is just a statistic. The immportant factor is full participation in rutting behavior. The "hog" 7 yr old is going to be a dominant ram due to his horn size and will be as likely to rut hard enough to negatively impact his chances of surviving the winter. Giving him a chance to pass on his genes is a noble idea but I'm not waiting 8 years to shoot his sons.

I'm shooting the pig because there is a serious chance that he's not going to be there for next season.


as mentioned on an earlier post the 8 year rule was put into effect as an artificial harvest tool. the reason outfitters have been concerned aboute clients shooting 8 yr + rams is that if they took rams under the age of 8 it could reduce their quota. the age thing was endorsed so hard by g/o's to keep their quota's up it has spilled over to the resident side of the equation. now that age does not affect their quota the age structure of the rams harvested by certain g/o's has changed somewhat. which only goes to show that a trophy is a trophy only in the eye of the beholder. all other arguments no matter how legitimate are just opinions but they do make for interesting points of views. If you shoot a booner that is only 7 yrs old is he a dink because he is not 8 yrs old. I don't think so!! Food for thought?

[SHAKER]

There are many banana head 3/4 californias that guys are shooting which fit the 'dink' criteria too, these are usually 4 years old, but to each his own...


You can blame LEH for that........ long odds and when you get a tag chances are you want to pull the trigger cause who knows if you'll ever get to do it again.

[lordbrown]

"Dink" covers both "banana" and "skater" rams, and even some legal rams.

A legal "Ram" is a good ram, but not quite a "hog" or "pig".

"Hogs" and "Pigs" are what most of these guys who have rams already are after.

You need to hunt hard to find the "Pigs" and "Hogs". You dont have to look to far to find a few "dinks" though.

I consider myself sort of a "dink" expert. Ive seen way more dinks than hogs or pigs.

Dinks arent all bad though. Ive found myself staring at one dink all day if there is nothing else around to look at.

"Dink expert" LOL! sounds a lil gay.

[Hunt'n Guide]

as mentioned on an earlier post the 8 year rule was put into effect as an artificial harvest tool. the reason outfitters have been concerned aboute clients shooting 8 yr + rams is that if they took rams under the age of 8 it could reduce their quota. the age thing was endorsed so hard by g/o's to keep their quota's up it has spilled over to the resident side of the equation. now that age does not affect their quota the age structure of the rams harvested by certain g/o's has changed somewhat. which only goes to show that a trophy is a trophy only in the eye of the beholder. all other arguments no matter how legitimate are just opinions but they do make for interesting points of views. If you shoot a booner that is only 7 yrs old is he a dink because he is not 8 yrs old. I don't think so!! Food for thought?

I'm of the opinion that the GO's should still be held accountable for the age of the rams they harvest, like you've mentioned they were before. The reason it was introduced was their overharvest in the good old days when they were not on quotas.

[bridger]

can't argue against that!! I think it will be interesting to see the age structure of the non resident harvest in a couple of years as quota's reduce.

[Coming_out_heavy.]

"Dink expert" LOL! sounds a lil gay.

Shuuuuuuuuuuut up. You are usually right there with me starin at the same dink so don't act like you aren't into watchin dinks too.

so there.

[Coming_out_heavy.]

can't argue against that!! I think it will be interesting to see the age structure of the non resident harvest in a couple of years as quota's reduce.

Why exactly are they having the quotas reduced anyway? If they reduce them too low they will be out of business....

Then Im out of groomed trails.

And we cant have that.

Seriously though, what is the reason for reducing their quotas?

[moose2]

Hey Guys
Do you remember why they went back to one per year and if the idea they had worked at all. (I am guessing not) I can't remember the details. I just knew when I shot my first ram I took him because it was well over the nose I didn't know about counting much then. He turned out to be nine but I didn't know that to later. Had he been 7 I would had a year off to look at the shoulder mount. I was proud to have a ram on my first hunt. Loosing out on a next years hunt was a chance I decided to take . An idea of a trophy is quite often different too other people than to the hunter. So to each thier own and good luck with the up coming sheep hunts.
MIKE

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Hey Bridger
Do you remember why they went back to one per year and if the idea they had worked at all. (I am guessing not) I can't remember the details. I just knew when I shot my first ram I took him because it was well over the nose I didn't know about counting much then. He turned out to be nine but I didn't know that to later. Had he been 7 I would had a year off to look at the shoulder mount. I was proud to have a ram on my first hunt. Loosing out on a next years hunt was a chance I decided to take . An idea of a trophy is quite often different too other people than to the hunter. So to each thier own and good luck with the up coming sheep hunts.
MIKE

Resident harvest went down and people stopped hunting sheep. It's damn tough to find a good sheephunting partner and that system was really good at splitting up hunting partners.

I shot my ram in 2005 and at the time the rules were that I had to sit out 2 more yrs no matter what the age was. I sat out 2006 and then they changed it to one ram every yr no matter the age and that change put resident hunters back on the mtns where they belong.

If they need to cut back resident harvest I'm okay with going back to 1 in 3 for rams under 8yrs.

SSS

[willy442]

can't argue against that!! I think it will be interesting to see the age structure of the non resident harvest in a couple of years as quota's reduce.

Quota's are low enough right now in the areas you mentined in your previous post. With what the sustainable harvest was in these territories back when pressure was primarily from the GO and mother nature. The quota's today are minimal. If you were to take anyone of these area's and look at the amount of sheep inaccessable to the average resident. You would find considerably more rams than guide quota is.
I don't for one second believe that we have a sheep problem due to guides. Yes we have guides conducting themselves inappropriatly and interfering with resident hunts. However we still have guides trying to enhance sheep as well, something we see very little of from most residents. The guides are not wrong in thier concern for sheep. We have too many people thinking it is only for thier personal gain which is only partially true. Many are truly concerned about the animal.

The one in three rule we used to have was the best management tool for sustainability of our sheep herds that we had. The problem was the GO's at the time didn't see the fact that putting residents on 1 in 3 and not reducing the accessability of the nonresident would be looked at so harshly. The nonresident in most cases hunts one Stone Ram in a lifetime, so it wasn't a big issue in the thinking. The residents jumped all over the band wagon about how it was unfair and how it broke up hunting parties and reduced resident harvest etc.

Hence the management tool was thrown out and the guide was and still is expected to shoot mature 8 year old rams as he should be. Then for the resident it was to difficult and restrictive to have an age rule so we went to any full curl. Which reduced the harvest of broomed rams. The problem is we need to bring something in to further regulate the resident for the following reasons.
1. Over hunting in highly accessable areas.
At present this is causing a loss in sheep numbers in these areas. Creating situations that are unfriendly with the natives and others, they will win in the end.
2. Too many people in these area's are pushing the sheep out into areas where they are not normally used to habitating. Leaving them more vulnerable to predators.
3. Ram age structure of harvest has dropped in these areas to 6 and 7 year old rams for the most part. There are many on this site that are accomplished sheep hunters that realize and know this for fact as they choose to get right the hell out of these areas for thier hunting, including yourself.

Last thing Bridger you, I and many others have watched sheep herds steadily decline for many years now. Mines, logging and developement has really not affected our sheep country in region 7. Predators have been up and down over the years and go some what in cycles. Guide outfitter quota's have steadily dropped and yet so have the sheep. My question is who's left to blame?

[bridger]

I don't want to hijack this thread but thought a brief history of stone sheep allocations might be appropriate. when non residents first went on quota in 1975 non residents were responsible for 86% of the annual harvest in 7b due to a couple of reasons 1) there were not many resident sheep hunters and most of them very inexperienced. 2) means of access fior residents were not as sophisticated as they are today.

the original quota's assigned to each guide area except for two were arrived at by the moe simply taking the average number of rams taken by the outfitter over the previous three years and that was the quota. thus if an outfitter had averaged 10 rams the previous three years he was assigned a quota of 10 etc.

The original policy was that quota's were reviewed every three years and an outfitter got a 20% increase in quota if more than 65% of the rams he took were over 8 yrs old. He got a 20% decrease if they weren't. Hence it was in the outfitters best financial interest to shoot 8+ rams. Conservation had very little to do with it and for the first three or four allocation periods outfitter quota's generally increased.

As resident harvest share began to increase an allocation policy devised to assign harvest shares to residents and non residents was put into place. the basic rule was that if the moe felt the need to reduce the harvest the reduction came from the non resident share until residents took over 70% of the annual harvest. At that time controls were to be put on the resident side with leh being the last option.

This is were the politics of sheep hunting began to really kick in. the outfitters obviously were reluctant to see their quota's reduced and began a campaign to put residents on leh when the harvest share reached 50/50. The bcwf would not accept leh for residents as a management tool and so the politics over harvest share heated up.

The BCWF negotiating team felt that leh was an absolute last resort and thus in order to slow down the increasing resident harvest the one in three rule was put in. that had a dramatic effect on the resident side of the equation and reduced the resident share by about 25%. The policy then was changed to allow residents to hunt each year if they harvested an 8+ ram, but if they shot a ram under 8 they had to sit out the next two years. That rule also applied to non residents but had little effect on the non resident share as there are a lot more potential non resident hunters than residents.

the new allocation policy that is to take effect in 2012 sets the maximum harvest share for sheep at 40% for non residents and if resident harvest increases that share will be reduced to a minimun of 20%. so in theory the non residents will no longer be allowed more than 40% of the annual allowable harvest and not less than 20%. If residents take more than 80% of the harvest controls will be placed on residents with leh as the last option. the one in three rule may split up partnerships but leh will absolutely destroy them so i guess it will be pick your poision time if the that scenario arrives.

When the new allocation policy was negotiated in 2007 the non resident stone sheep quota in 7b was 137. that was reduced by 20% in 2007 to I think 108. The moe has set an allowable harvest of 180 stones rams in 7b so if the government maintains its resolve in 2012 the non resident quota will be reduced to a maximum of 72 rams divided up among all the outfitters. As resident harvest continues that number can go as low as 36 rams. needless to say the goabc is not looking forward to that day and is lobbying hard to prevent it. thus they are calling for leh now for residents and failing that to have quota's removed entirely for non residents.

it is important to remember that the annual allowable harvest is set by mininstry of envriornment staff and only harvest shares are negotiated between the bcwf and goabc.

this is just a thumbnail sketch of what has taken place over the last 30+ yrs and my intention in posting this history is just for information for the (I hate to say it) younger generations of sheep hunters that may not be aware of the past. It is not meant to be controversial -- bridger

[SHAKER]

Great history lesson.....

[6616]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Region_7B_.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=20229)

[The Hermit]

Guys. I've really enjoyed this thread and have learned a lot. Thanks

[bridger]

sheep hunting is a never ending quest for information, that is why these threads are so much fun

[willy442]

I don't want to hijack this thread but thought a brief history of stone sheep allocations might be appropriate. when non residents first went on quota in 1975 non residents were responsible for 86% of the annual harvest in 7b due to a couple of reasons 1) there were not many resident sheep hunters and most of them very inexperienced. 2) means of access fior residents were not as sophisticated as they are today.

the original quota's assigned to each guide area except for two were arrived at by the moe simply taking the average number of rams taken by the outfitter over the previous three years and that was the quota. thus if an outfitter had averaged 10 rams the previous three years he was assigned a quota of 10 etc.

The original policy was that quota's were reviewed every three years and an outfitter got a 20% increase in quota if more than 65% of the rams he took were over 8 yrs old. He got a 20% decrease if they weren't. Hence it was in the outfitters best financial interest to shoot 8+ rams. Conservation had very little to do with it and for the first three or four allocation periods outfitter quota's generally increased.

As resident harvest share began to increase an allocation policy devised to assign harvest shares to residents and non residents was put into place. the basic rule was that if the moe felt the need to reduce the harvest the reduction came from the non resident share until residents took over 70% of the annual harvest. At that time controls were to be put on the resident side with leh being the last option.

This is were the politics of sheep hunting began to really kick in. the outfitters obviously were reluctant to see their quota's reduced and began a campaign to put residents on leh when the harvest share reached 50/50. The bcwf would not accept leh for residents as a management tool and so the politics over harvest share heated up.

The BCWF negotiating team felt that leh was an absolute last resort and thus in order to slow down the increasing resident harvest the one in three rule was put in. that had a dramatic effect on the resident side of the equation and reduced the resident share by about 25%. The policy then was changed to allow residents to hunt each year if they harvested an 8+ ram, but if they shot a ram under 8 they had to sit out the next two years. That rule also applied to non residents but had little effect on the non resident share as there are a lot more potential non resident hunters than residents.

the new allocation policy that is to take effect in 2012 sets the maximum harvest share for sheep at 40% for non residents and if resident harvest increases that share will be reduced to a minimun of 20%. so in theory the non residents will no longer be allowed more than 40% of the annual allowable harvest and not less than 20%. If residents take more than 80% of the harvest controls will be placed on residents with leh as the last option. the one in three rule may split up partnerships but leh will absolutely destroy them so i guess it will be pick your poision time if the that scenario arrives.

When the new allocation policy was negotiated in 2007 the non resident stone sheep quota in 7b was 137. that was reduced by 20% in 2007 to I think 108. The moe has set an allowable harvest of 180 stones rams in 7b so if the government maintains its resolve in 2012 the non resident quota will be reduced to a maximum of 72 rams divided up among all the outfitters. As resident harvest continues that number can go as low as 36 rams. needless to say the goabc is not looking forward to that day and is lobbying hard to prevent it. thus they are calling for leh now for residents and failing that to have quota's removed entirely for non residents.

it is important to remember that the annual allowable harvest is set by mininstry of envriornment staff and only harvest shares are negotiated between the bcwf and goabc.

this is just a thumbnail sketch of what has taken place over the last 30+ yrs and my intention in posting this history is just for information for the (I hate to say it) younger generations of sheep hunters that may not be aware of the past. It is not meant to be controversial -- bridger

Thanks for posting this Bridger it is exactly as I recall it also. Very informative for most on here. I'am dissapointed though that you failed to answer any of my questions in the previous post.

[willy442]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Region_7B_.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=20229)

What good is 16 year old information? Lets look ahead more so than back.

[6616]

What good is 16 year old information? Lets look ahead more so than back.

I agree Willy, I posted it merely to show what it was like before and after non-resident quota was applied..

[willy442]

I agree Willy, I posted it merely to show what it was like before and after non-resident quota was applied..

OK even with that though the hunting pressure on Stone Sheep changed dramatically as Bridger implies in his post. I was lucky and got to hunt during the time when G/Os pretty much had it all to themselves.

[bridger]

Quota's are low enough right now in the areas you mentined in your previous post. With what the sustainable harvest was in these territories back when pressure was primarily from the GO and mother nature. The quota's today are minimal. If you were to take anyone of these area's and look at the amount of sheep inaccessable to the average resident. You would find considerably more rams than guide quota is.
I don't for one second believe that we have a sheep problem due to guides. Yes we have guides conducting themselves inappropriatly and interfering with resident hunts. However we still have guides trying to enhance sheep as well, something we see very little of from most residents. The guides are not wrong in thier concern for sheep. We have too many people thinking it is only for thier personal gain which is only partially true. Many are truly concerned about the animal.

The one in three rule we used to have was the best management tool for sustainability of our sheep herds that we had. The problem was the GO's at the time didn't see the fact that putting residents on 1 in 3 and not reducing the accessability of the nonresident would be looked at so harshly. The nonresident in most cases hunts one Stone Ram in a lifetime, so it wasn't a big issue in the thinking. The residents jumped all over the band wagon about how it was unfair and how it broke up hunting parties and reduced resident harvest etc.

Hence the management tool was thrown out and the guide was and still is expected to shoot mature 8 year old rams as he should be. Then for the resident it was to difficult and restrictive to have an age rule so we went to any full curl. Which reduced the harvest of broomed rams. The problem is we need to bring something in to further regulate the resident for the following reasons.
1. Over hunting in highly accessable areas.
At present this is causing a loss in sheep numbers in these areas. Creating situations that are unfriendly with the natives and others, they will win in the end.
2. Too many people in these area's are pushing the sheep out into areas where they are not normally used to habitating. Leaving them more vulnerable to predators.
3. Ram age structure of harvest has dropped in these areas to 6 and 7 year old rams for the most part. There are many on this site that are accomplished sheep hunters that realize and know this for fact as they choose to get right the hell out of these areas for thier hunting, including yourself.

Last thing Bridger you, I and many others have watched sheep herds steadily decline for many years now. Mines, logging and developement has really not affected our sheep country in region 7. Predators have been up and down over the years and go some what in cycles. Guide outfitter quota's have steadily dropped and yet so have the sheep. My question is who's left to blame?


In my opinion and experience over the years hunting has not had much to do with declining sheep numbers. In the early days outfitters took the majoriity of rams for reasons I have already posted and while it is true they took a lot of good rams they also took their share of "dinks". that is a matter of public record and as they say you can look it up. The big controversy in the annual harvest in 7b has always hinged on the age factor. Early management strategy used age as a guideline for setting harvest levels because managers had no solid iinventory data. the age structure in the harvest was used to set quota's etc. As mentioned before outfitters did a great job of keeping the average age up, but it was more a economic factor than a conservation issue. The main reason outfitters were always concerned about young rams taken by residents is that it could effect their quota's. In my view that attitude was reasonable as they are in business. As far as guides killing too many rams that has never been a conservation issue. the issue has always been resident priority. if the government keeps its word and finally implements a transparent allocation policy in 2012 this issue should disappear. I have no background in sheep population dynamics so leave the setting of harvest levels and strategies to the professionals. As a sheep hunter I like to hunt old sheep, but that is a matter of personal preference. As far as the age structure of the non resident harvest is concerned some outfitters have started harvesting under 8 rams as it no longer affects their quota, their business perhaps but not their quota. As the allocation policy kicks in and quota's are based on a percentage of the allowable harvest i think we will witness somewhat of change in harvest strategy by some, but not all outfitters as age will have no effect on quota. As to your question who is left to blame for declining sheep populations? I don't think blame lies at the doorstep of anyone group or harvest strategy. I know that the very best sheep hunting years in 7b in my experience were those years following the wolf kill winters. So if we have to blame someone or something how about we blame God and move on?

[stoneslinger]

Damn straight. Coyote also can kill lots of sheep. From what I've seen, ewes are not very protective of thier lambs. Different story with a doe or a cow elk/moose.

[willy442]

In my opinion and experience over the years hunting has not had much to do with declining sheep numbers. In the early days outfitters took the majoriity of rams for reasons I have already posted and while it is true they took a lot of good rams they also took their share of "dinks". that is a matter of public record and as they say you can look it up. The big controversy in the annual harvest in 7b has always hinged on the age factor. Early management strategy used age as a guideline for setting harvest levels because managers had no solid iinventory data. the age structure in the harvest was used to set quota's etc. As mentioned before outfitters did a great job of keeping the average age up, but it was more a economic factor than a conservation issue. The main reason outfitters were always concerned about young rams taken by residents is that it could effect their quota's. In my view that attitude was reasonable as they are in business. As far as guides killing too many rams that has never been a conservation issue. the issue has always been resident priority. if the government keeps its word and finally implements a transparent allocation policy in 2012 this issue should disappear. I have no background in sheep population dynamics so leave the setting of harvest levels and strategies to the professionals. As a sheep hunter I like to hunt old sheep, but that is a matter of personal preference. As far as the age structure of the non resident harvest is concerned some outfitters have started harvesting under 8 rams as it no longer affects their quota, their business perhaps but not their quota. As the allocation policy kicks in and quota's are based on a percentage of the allowable harvest i think we will witness somewhat of change in harvest strategy by some, but not all outfitters as age will have no effect on quota. As to your question who is left to blame for declining sheep populations? I don't think blame lies at the doorstep of anyone group or harvest strategy. I know that the very best sheep hunting years in 7b in my experience were those years following the wolf kill winters. So if we have to blame someone or something how about we blame God and move on?

Bridger my observations over the years from watching sheep is that the harvest of what we are classing as dink rams or the 6 and 7 year olds is a huge part of the decline. The blame for this lays with all hunters and the ministry. They need to go to 1 ram lifetime for non resident and 1 in three for residents unless rams over 8 are taken then things will improve. Right now as really evidenced this year by posts. Te early season was a gong show. Think a small regulation like the one in three could even give the resident a better quality hunt just like the guides are suggesting. In the end they may not be wrong, greedy yes but not wrong. Now we can move on.

[Deaddog]

the early season sounds like it was a great season, not a gong show, some good rams were taken and lots of guys enjoyed the experience. the one in three is not necessary according to the proffessionals who set the guidelines and sheep are doing well according to them.. to continually sound the doom and gloom based on opinion only is doing a disservice to the hunting community.. if you have some facts as to the population of sheep being in trouble that would be worthwhile..

[Coming_out_heavy.]

What exactly made the early season a gong show? I must have missed that.

[willy442]

the early season sounds like it was a great season, not a gong show, some good rams were taken and lots of guys enjoyed the experience. the one in three is not necessary according to the proffessionals who set the guidelines and sheep are doing well according to them.. to continually sound the doom and gloom based on opinion only is doing a disservice to the hunting community.. if you have some facts as to the population of sheep being in trouble that would be worthwhile..

If this is true. What is all the hoopala about special resident seasons, less guide quota and on, and on. All the things you seem to support. Sorry but if we are talking reductions and hunting pressure being an issue. We are all responsible and the situation is the result of poor management and unfound or accurate counts of what is out there. When you have many years of sheep hunting experiance available on the site (Bridger for one) telling you sheep are declining how can you post such a statement like the sheep are doing fine? Have you ever questioned the proffessionals source's of information or is it just automatically the gospel. Much of the info you post is directly in conflict with everything I observed over all my years of watching sheep. Granted I'm not a book educated Bio. Remember though the guy that taught the Bio had to gain field practical experience somewhere too, so maybe my personnal learnings have some merrit.

Look at SSS and BC rams hunt. Seems they were in with alot of hunting pressure, read the Tatashini posts about the crowds. We won't even start on the Muskawa, Kechika, Turnigan and Muncho. From the reports I have yes a few good rams were taken but there were alot of people running around and parked along the HWY.

[goatdancer]

Shuuuuuuuuuuut up. You are usually right there with me starin at the same dink so don't act like you aren't into watchin dinks too.

so there.

Sounds like you guys need to go to a peeler bar and get away from looking at dinks.........

[Coming_out_heavy.]

Willy, I still dont see the problem. What are you saying exactly is the problem? Of course there are hunters out... especially in the earlier parts of the year, with the easier to handle weather etc.

I guess Im used to seeing the hunting pressure. Im up the highway a fair bit and I see trucks all the time, people in Toad lodge all the time. I see outfitters out there as well. Im also up the river a fair bit and I see pressure there too, residents and outfitters. I have yet to fly in to a lake or landing strip, but I will be certainly expecting to run into people in those places as well....

[Coming_out_heavy.]

Sounds like you guys need to go to a peeler bar and get away from looking at dinks.........


Small rams man. You got a sick mind.

And no peelers in Fort Nelly these days, sadly.

[Deaddog]

If this is true. What is all the hoopala about special resident seasons, less guide quota and on, and on. All the things you seem to support.

......not sure where you got that impression, I have never stated I support special resident seasons or less guide quota, in fact I am quite satisfied with the current way in which things are divided..I am aware of where the proffessionals get there information so it is not just gospel..

Sorry but if we are talking reductions and hunting pressure being an issue. We are all responsible and the situation is the result of poor management and unfound or accurate counts of what is out there. When you have many years of sheep hunting experiance available on the site (Bridger for one) telling you sheep are declining how can you post such a statement like the sheep are doing fine? Have you ever questioned the proffessionals source's of information or is it just automatically the gospel.

....I am aware of where the proffesssionals get their information, so it is not just taken as gospel

Much of the info you post is directly in conflict with everything I observed over all my years of watching sheep.

.......Show me what "info" I have posted, rather I state I will go with what the bio's are reporting based on data collected..... there will always be pressure opening day/week, after that there truly are not a lot of guys hunting sheep... I have and continue to hunt a lot of the areas you have posted, in sept I rarely see another sheep hunter... again we will agree to disagree on the status of the population of sheep, until sound scientific proof/data can be shown that the stone sheep are in trouble I will go with the proffessionals... come the day that the science says the sheep are in trouble I will be the first to support whatever measures necessary to help the sheep..

Granted I'm not a book educated Bio. Remember though the guy that taught the Bio had to gain field practical experience somewhere too, so maybe my personnal learnings have some merrit.

Look at SSS and BC rams hunt. Seems they were in with alot of hunting pressure, read the Tatashini posts about the crowds. We won't even start on the Muskawa, Kechika, Turnigan and Muncho. From the reports I have yes a few good rams were taken but there were alot of people running around and parked along the HWY.

The Hwy is always busy opening week, sheep are in lots of places away from the highway as well

[stoneslinger]

I know of a GO that had a fantastic season. Filled quota right quick and got some really good ones. Any resident in the area could have had a crack at many, if not all, of them.

[huntcoop]

Way too much talk of dinks on a hunting sight, time for a break........

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:QQgL0EbmV7tahM:http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh171/brennaboo8/boobies.jpg&t=1

[bridger]

the decline in sheep numbers from the heydays after the wolf kill winters is just not effecting 6 and 7 yr old rams but the entire population--ewes and lambs included. the big ewe groups in 7-42 - 7-50 are no longer there. hunters don't harvest ewes and lambs. on another note a lot is being made about younger rams in the harvest. The reality is that the the age structure in the harvest is about the same as it was 20 yrs ago with the majority of rams being 8+ even on the resident side of the equation so not much has changed in that regard. moe wildlife managers now feel that age is not as critical as they once thought it to be. they allow only a percentage of the ram population to be harvested and that percentage is less than 4%. I have stated before that I really don't think hunting is having much affect on sheep numbers. Too many other factors at play. predators for example. When I first started sheep hunting we seldom saw a grizzly bear or anything that ate meat including ravens and whiskey jacks for that matter as there were a lot of private predator programs in the works. Also in the works were lots of private habitat improvement programs. Both of which resulted in large populations of ungulates. Guys shooting less than 8 year rams are not much of a factor in my view.

[stoneslinger]

I have walked up and down trails where I used to see 50 - 100 sheep and more elk than I care to count all in the same day. I now see a few sheep, a few elk, wolf scat and grizzly tracks. Noticeable absence of horse tracks and humans. Former grassy slopes are shrinking. Decline sure isn't from increased resident ram harvest. Thats for certain.

[325]

the decline in sheep numbers from the heydays after the wolf kill winters is just not effecting 6 and 7 yr old rams but the entire population--ewes and lambs included. the big ewe groups in 7-42 - 7-50 are no longer there. hunters don't harvest ewes and lambs. on another note a lot is being made about younger rams in the harvest. The reality is that the the age structure in the harvest is about the same as it was 20 yrs ago with the majority of rams being 8+ even on the resident side of the equation so not much has changed in that regard. moe wildlife managers now feel that age is not as critical as they once thought it to be. they allow only a percentage of the ram population to be harvested and that percentage is less than 4%. I have stated before that I really don't think hunting is having much affect on sheep numbers. Too many other factors at play. predators for example. When I first started sheep hunting we seldom saw a grizzly bear or anything that ate meat including ravens and whiskey jacks for that matter as there were a lot of private predator programs in the works. Also in the works were lots of private habitat improvement programs. Both of which resulted in large populations of ungulates. Guys shooting less than 8 year rams are not much of a factor in my view.

I agree 100%. Harvesting only 4% of the ram population will not have an impact on total sheep numbers. On my hunt we saw about 50 ewes, and I would estimate that only about 30% were with lambs. We also saw lots of wolf sign and had wolves howling outside of camp one morning. There was also grizzly sign everywhere, and a sow and cub walked past camp one afternoon.

The other consideration is the encroachment of elk into areas where they were previously absent. Elk consume a LOT of forage, and if they spend the summer grazing traditional sheep winter range the results will not be good.

The glory days of sheep, moose and caribou hunting in the north are past. Good hunting is still to be had, but the extremely prolific numbers found 20 years ago are certianly no more. The reason, in my opinion, is the steady increase of wolves since wolf control was last seriously pursued in the 1980s.

A return to the boom days of northern hunting is possible, but only with predator control...at least that's my opinion - and I used to be a wildlife biologist, for what its worth.

[bridger]

pretty well hits the nail on the head.

[sako_300]

so do organizations like resident hunter priority lobby for the above?

If not, who brings these agenda items up with stakeholder groups who are making the decisions? I understand the 'sensitivity' of the issue but if there is a general concensus from the biologists, GO's, residents, then you would think pressure in a few key areas will have people looking a little closer.

Bridger - it seems like you are tuned into this, care to elucidate?

[Coming_out_heavy.]

Wolves are a huge factor in the north. They arent being trapped. My wifes uncle is a trapper and I have spent much time with him in the bush. He loves it, and because of my experiences with him, so do I. The problem is, last year he got as low as $13.00 for a wolf hide....

That is a GODDAM joke considering what is involved. There is nothing slowing the wolf population down. Nothing.

And.... years ago Id glass sheep and think about how safe they were up where they lived. Then one fine October 14th I was glassing a band of rams with my wifes uncle, when suddenly they ALL got up and started running toward us. By the time they got to us, there ended up being all the rams we saw plus about 20 ewes we had not seen. They ran within 200 yards of us. ( they started over 1km away ). During this whole event we realized a pack of wolves had rushed those sheep causing the stampede. The wolves chased, and one wolf had made his way ahead and higher than all the sheep, and I mean in the rocks. He was barely able to hang on, but he was there, and that was enough to keep the sheep from going up. We didnt see the actual kill but they got a sheep. The next day there were ravens in and out of a small depression where the sheep had ran through.

That pack had at least 10 wolves in it.... lots of sheep needed to fill those bellies.



Another thing I have noticed. Elk. Elk feeding up where the rock meets the grass. Places that 10 years ago, had no elk. Now these same places, one major factor in planning a stalk is the goddam cow elk barking at us. Piss off elk!

I also had a nice chat with Stan Lancaster in the Toad lodge last winter. He figures that wolverines are hammering sheep, no one trapping them he says.

On a side note. 50 plus wolves were trapped in the Fort Nelson area last year. Hats off to that.

[bridger]

Predation is a major factor in declining sheep populations for sure. Having a common sense approach to predator management is something that we really need in BC, but the reality is that until we get a government with the political will to stand up and be counted it probably won't happen. organizations like the bcwf, the goabc, the trappers association etc are all on common ground here and continualy talk to goverment about instituting a predator management program, but so far with little success. I think in order to get back on track we need more organizations than just hunting groups to join forces and talk directly to politicians not beaucrats. Other groups include local governments such as city councils and regional districts. the strategy with government should be based on two issues in my view. one is that wildlife is a precious natural resource and the government has the responsibility to manage all species, but the big one has to be economics and how much money hunting generates in the province and how much revenue is being lost because of reduced hunting opportunities both res and non res. The cattlemans assocation has had a great deal of influence with government using the economic approach and is a strategy we as hunters should use. here is an example. If a wolf kills a ranchers cow worth $800 the government responds. when a wolf kills a $35,000 stone sheep, or $10,000 bull elk government does nothing. in the peace country hunting has a higher net economic benefit than ranching yet the government is reducing elk and moose numbers in the peace because of crop depredation and intense pressure from the cattleman's association. Although bantering back and forth on this forum about the age of rams is fun our time and energies would be better spent talking with our elected officials about the economics of hunting. the economic sidex is something they can understand. A predator program also has to be sold to the general public (press) As hunters we should also be promoting the management of all species to the general public. Why is a wolf or grizzly bear more important that a moose? We should also be extolling the benefits of eating organically raised meat. Sounds silly but the general public can identify with that. I hesitate to sound like a broken record but less than 10% of hunters and fisherman in province belong to the bcwf and until that changes and the majority of us stand up for our way of life not much will change.

[Deaddog]

you are right bridger that we have to get past the beaucrats and directly to the politicians...goabc/bcwf and wssbc do have a predator control program that they contribute to , directly rewarding trappers financially for trapping wolf's, this has resulted in an increase in wolf kills throughout the province, while it would be great for all to be members of an organization such as the bcwf that won't happen any time soon unless changes are made provincially....ie in order to get a hunting license you must belong etc....I know that quietly some in the north have predator control programs and support for those programs has come from ngo's outside of bc, in the interm this is the best we can hope for.. long term predator control may be an issue for the bc wildlife coalition to address with the minister... Jim

[Hunt'n Guide]

Dare I point out that the "$35000 stone ram" is one taken by a nonresident with a GO? Rams taken by residents generate considerably less revenue.
Looking a tags costs alone $60 resident tag, $620 nonresident the $800 compensation for the dead cow is more than Govenment revenue for any sheep. That and a smart rancher makes a stink in the papers when wolves kill his animals. When wolves kill sheep seldom is there anyone around to watch and report.

[willy442]

Predation is a major factor in declining sheep populations for sure. Having a common sense approach to predator management is something that we really need in BC, but the reality is that until we get a government with the political will to stand up and be counted it probably won't happen. organizations like the bcwf, the goabc, the trappers association etc are all on common ground here and continualy talk to goverment about instituting a predator management program, but so far with little success. I think in order to get back on track we need more organizations than just hunting groups to join forces and talk directly to politicians not beaucrats. Other groups include local governments such as city councils and regional districts. the strategy with government should be based on two issues in my view. one is that wildlife is a precious natural resource and the government has the responsibility to manage all species, but the big one has to be economics and how much money hunting generates in the province and how much revenue is being lost because of reduced hunting opportunities both res and non res. The cattlemans assocation has had a great deal of influence with government using the economic approach and is a strategy we as hunters should use. here is an example. If a wolf kills a ranchers cow worth $800 the government responds. when a wolf kills a $35,000 stone sheep, or $10,000 bull elk government does nothing. in the peace country hunting has a higher net economic benefit than ranching yet the government is reducing elk and moose numbers in the peace because of crop depredation and intense pressure from the cattleman's association. Although bantering back and forth on this forum about the age of rams is fun our time and energies would be better spent talking with our elected officials about the economics of hunting. the economic sidex is something they can understand. A predator program also has to be sold to the general public (press) As hunters we should also be promoting the management of all species to the general public. Why is a wolf or grizzly bear more important that a moose? We should also be extolling the benefits of eating organically raised meat. Sounds silly but the general public can identify with that. I hesitate to sound like a broken record but less than 10% of hunters and fisherman in province belong to the bcwf and until that changes and the majority of us stand up for our way of life not much will change.

Very good post Bridger and yes I agree with everything you've said. Remember though man is also a predator and his conduct right now is affecting our sheep numbers. The other thing I would like to point out is. When predator controls and enhancement stratagies are pointed out we as residents want the guides, trappers, natives, ranchers and other groups on our side. This is very difficult to achieve when we want to join forces on one front and fight like hell on another. Exactly my point when I say we are all hunters and need to become united.

The Resident Hunter fund is another issue. I personnally donated 1000.00 dollars to this the day it officially started. To this day I've seen any kind of accounting for where any of this money or reports on how the fund is doing. Yet some think we should just keep sending money.

[BlacktailStalker]

Need more guys like hunter 7413 (think thats his name) doing their thing up there. Wolf trapping son of a gun that guy is :cool:

[bigwhiteys]

Need more guys like hunter 7413 (think thats his name) doing their thing up there. Wolf trapping son of a gun that guy is :cool:
There are several others taking the wolf control problem seriously up there too, and some of the outfitters are also practicing surgical removal of packs with Helicopter bait stations and snaring. They are taking roughly 60 per year (according to the GO) and I know some local indians are trapping quite a few too, along with wolverines, whose pelts are worth quite a bit more.

Carl

[bridger]

the guys that are trapping wolves are to be commended for their efforts as every thing helps, but to really effective we need a comprehensive plan that covers a large geographic area. the north is vast and difficult for individuals to access on a truly effective scale. when the moe did the aerial wolf program in the 1980's there were taking hundreds of wolves each winter and the results in ungualte recruitment were spectacular. Idaho has just finished a research program on elk/wolf predation and found that one wolf ate 16 elk per year.

[bridger]

Dare I point out that the "$35000 stone ram" is one taken by a nonresident with a GO? Rams taken by residents generate considerably less revenue.
Looking a tags costs alone $60 resident tag, $620 nonresident the $800 compensation for the dead cow is more than Govenment revenue for any sheep. That and a smart rancher makes a stink in the papers when wolves kill his animals. When wolves kill sheep seldom is there anyone around to watch and report.


I don't really see the point in your post, but if there is one it is lost to me. The economic return for a sheep or elk or anything else is not limited to the cost of the tag or the price paid to a g/o. It goes much further than that. A resident sheep hunter buys rifles,clothes, binos, packs, spotting scopes, horses, saddles, airplanes, quads, Gibson's, charter flights, food and the list goes on most of which is purchased in bc. A huge amount of money injected into the provincial ecomomy and is an arrow in our collective quivers that should be used in discussions with government or anyone else. That is my point.

[willy442]

I don't really see the point in your post, but if there is one it is lost to me. The economic return for a sheep or elk or anything else is not limited to the cost of the tag or the price paid to a g/o. It goes much further than that. A resident sheep hunter buys rifles,clothes, binos, packs, spotting scopes, horses, saddles, airplanes, quads, Gibson's, charter flights, food and the list goes on most of which is purchased in bc. A huge amount of money injected into the provincial ecomomy and is an arrow in our collective quivers that should be used in discussions with government or anyone else. That is my point.

I don't know what his point is either. However I believe one cannot put a value on our wildlife in that fashion. It should be treated as PRICELESS period.

[stoneslinger]

Helicopters in conjunction with bait, snares, and semi auto rifles would be very effective. So much could be accomplished in a small amount of time if the political motivation existed.

[Bear Chaser]

This is how the wolf overpopulation issue should be getting dealt with.

Nueces Helicopter Pig Hunt (no music) (mhtml:{66C000AE-5A9A-406C-AF88-FB96F7DFCCA7}mid://00000008/!x-usc:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiHmYsyVniE&feature=email)
This feral hog eradication program is funded by a group of farmers who are taking progressive action to reduce the devastation done to their crops by these animals. Each and every feral hog is estimated to cause $1400 in crop damage during its lifetime. As you can see this data in combination with the extraordinarily high and ever expanding hog population proves to be a very big problem. Through the support of the farmers of Haskell Co. and the efforts of Nueces Helicopters, LLC. the hog population is on its way to a more controllable state as well as a much higher crop yield for the farmers. For more information see www.nueceshelicopters.com

[goatdancer]

I don't really see the point in your post, but if there is one it is lost to me. The economic return for a sheep or elk or anything else is not limited to the cost of the tag or the price paid to a g/o. It goes much further than that. A resident sheep hunter buys rifles,clothes, binos, packs, spotting scopes, horses, saddles, airplanes, quads, Gibson's, charter flights, food and the list goes on most of which is purchased in bc. A huge amount of money injected into the provincial ecomomy and is an arrow in our collective quivers that should be used in discussions with government or anyone else. That is my point.


Especially the Gibson's....... Great choice.

[Coming_out_heavy.]

Dare I point out that the "$35000 stone ram" is one taken by a nonresident with a GO? Rams taken by residents generate considerably less revenue.
Looking a tags costs alone $60 resident tag, $620 nonresident the $800 compensation for the dead cow is more than Govenment revenue for any sheep. That and a smart rancher makes a stink in the papers when wolves kill his animals. When wolves kill sheep seldom is there anyone around to watch and report.


You are dreaming man. $60.00 for my tag is a drop in the goddam bucket. Hunting is an endless money pit for resident hunters, and we support the economy with our dollars more than any non resident. Give your head a shake.

Go have a look at any boat launch, or trailhead for horses. The amount of money spent on hunting by residents is huge. $60.00 tag my ass.

[bridger]

right on!!! my point exactley.

[DV-67]

Good thread guys! A sheep thread that has not turned into a pissing match.

Thank you.

[Hunt'n Guide]

I don't really see the point in your post, but if there is one it is lost to me. The economic return for a sheep or elk or anything else is not limited to the cost of the tag or the price paid to a g/o. It goes much further than that. A resident sheep hunter buys rifles,clothes, binos, packs, spotting scopes, horses, saddles, airplanes, quads, Gibson's, charter flights, food and the list goes on most of which is purchased in bc. A huge amount of money injected into the provincial ecomomy and is an arrow in our collective quivers that should be used in discussions with government or anyone else. That is my point.

After reading what I posted I can see why nobody got what I was trying to say. It didn't even make sense to me afterwards.

I was trying to say that regardless of the value we place on rams and how much money people spend on jet sleds and air charters etc. unless we can find some way to pass on a real dollar value to the policy makers the $800 dollar cow has more direct cost to the Government.

The other thought that was trying to get out is that the rancher finds the bloody snow and dead cattle in time for a photo op and thus is more able to sway public opinion toward helping him withhis problem. We on the other hand just show up saying we can't find enough sheep to kill, the wolves ate them all. Hunterts in comparison to the rancher lack evidence and look like greedy incompetents, ie. Elmer Fudd.

It's an image problem. Not to mention we need some biology to back up our ovservations/claims.

[bridger]

good point. hunters need to do exactely what the cattleman have done. that is form a really effective lobby to all levels of government. In my experience politicians place maximum value on employment and cash flow. They generally care less about aesethics or way of life. A good economy gets them re elected and really that is alll most of them are concerned with. The cash flow created by hunting and fishing in this province is staggering. the economy in the peace is currently the strongest in the province and there are very few business's up here that do not have hunters and fisherman as customers. That is the thrust I feel will be the most effective in not only getting a predator program going but also convince the government to increase budget levels for the fish and wildlife branch and the co service. At present wildlife has little value to most politicians as very few of them hunt or fish. Money and jobs are more important. Local chambers of commerce, regional districts, and other levels of government need to be aware of the impact hunting and fishing has on local and provincial cash flows.