G.O. Quota

[HD95]

I don't know if this was already posted.Once again the outfitters are pushing.

Wildlife Stewardship is our Priority™

1 of 2

June 2010

STONE’S SHEEP ISSUE PAPER

Should Stone’s Sheep be an Allocated Species?

Background

The current global range of Stone’s sheep (Ovis dalli stonei) includes the northern Rocky
Mountains to the east and west to the Skeena region (including areas of the north Stikine River
watershed, north past Atlin and into Alaska and the Yukon). British Columbia (BC) is home to
85% of the world’s Stone’s sheep, including nearly all of the core ranges. In 1998, the Fish and
Wildlife Branch of the Ministry of Environment estimated that there were 12,000-14,000
Stone’s sheep residing in BC. Precise population figures for Stone’s sheep in the province do not
currently exist, but relative herd densities are known.
In November 2006, the Guide Outfitters Association of British Columbia (GOABC) held a
workshop on Stone’s sheep and formulated 15 recommendations for improving the population
of the species.1 Increased inventory data, predator control and habitat enhancement were
identified as the key strategies. Hunting was not identified as a threat to the population.
The Stone’s sheep hunt in BC is closely monitored. The harvest by resident recreational hunters
and guided hunters are restricted by a full-curl horn regulation. Within parks and protected
areas in the Skeena region, the hunt is even more closely controlled through Limited Entry
Hunts (LEH). Compulsory inspection monitors the harvest by providing verification of the age
of rams.

In the past, guide outfitters were given a quota and resident recreational hunters were restricted
to one sheep in three years. The restriction on resident recreational hunters was lifted in 2007.
The harvest split between guided hunters and resident recreational hunters subsequently
returned to 60:40 respectively, meeting the guidelines set in the Harvest Allocation Procedure.
The cumulative Stone’s sheep quota for guided hunters has not been revisited since it was
established and currently only limits harvest in a few guide territories in the province.
Analysis by the Fish and Wildlife Branch concluded that the success of guided hunters and
resident recreational hunters was attributed to the relative population abundance of Stone’s
sheep. While the harvest of resident recreational hunters tends to be clustered near access
points, the guided hunters’ harvest is more dispersed by space and time due to the nature of
guiding territories and booking schedules. The analysis provided no indication that guided
hunter effort resulted in reduced success for resident recreational hunters (which would justify a
resident only season).

A few resident recreational hunters have the perception that quota on Stone’s sheep for guide
outfitters is the mechanism that allows them to achieve their share. This is not the case. Social
perceptions are a major barrier to change in the management approach. GOABC plans to create
partnerships with other stakeholders to address this perception and focus on population
sustainability and increased opportunity for all hunters.

1 Wildlife Stewardship – Series 1 “Stone’s Sheep – Preparing for the Future, An Action Plan for Stone’s Sheep”.
Available at http://www.goabc.org/Wildlife_Stewardship.pdf

Guide Outfitters Association of BC
Stone’s Sheep Issue Paper

Wildlife Stewardship is our Priority™

2 of 2

Conclusions

Conservation and management of the Stone’s sheep should be a priority. The harvest by
resident recreational hunters and guided hunters is not a threat to the sustainability of the
population because it is restricted by a full-curl regulation. Since hunters contribute a
tremendous amount of interest, energy and financial resources to the preservation of the species
and their habitat, hunting opportunity should be maximized.
Having guided hunters on quota and resident recreational hunters on General Open Season
(GOS) is inconsistent with other allocated or Category A species. There is no Annual Allowable
Harvest (AAH) and this system should be applied to other species where no AAH exists and the
harvest is restricted by conservative regulations. The change would result in the simplification
and harmonization of regulations across species. In addition, the change would decrease the
social and financial costs of the allocation process. Government resources should be expended
on species where there is a conservation concern.

Recommendations

Stone’s sheep should be managed through GOS for resident recreational hunters and guide
outfitters should come off quota to maximize opportunity.

[goatdancer]

Recommendations


Stone’s sheep should be managed through GOS for resident recreational hunters and guide
outfitters should come off quota to maximize opportunity.
[/quote]


That is the crux of the matter and the ultimate goal of GOABC, an unlimited market. No more quotas. Sounds like a great conservation policy.

[Moose Guide]

Before any species is available to GO's a GOS for residents should be in place! No GOS for residents=No quota for GO's

[d6dan]

Before any species is available to GO's a GOS for residents should be in place! No GOS for residents=No quota for GO's

Ya, just like the Island for Rosie's eh?. GO's should not have a quota on Rosie's period!....

[Moose Guide]

Ya, just like the Island for Rosie's eh?. GO's should not have a quota on Rosie's period!....

I'm not against outfitters, I just think residents should get first crack at our wildlife. Give the GO's a quota when residents have a gos!

[HD95]

I'm not against outfitters, I just think residents should get first crack at our wildlife. Give the GO's a quota when residents have a gos!
I'm not against out-fitters as well.I know removing quotas from GO's would not bode well for residents.They're pretty efficient at their craft.

[bigwhiteys]

Had a somewhat negative experience with an outfitter over sheep this year... Got a whole bunch of this same bullshit spewed at me when rolling up to his lodge and confronting him regarding his questionable practices.

Don't forget your video cameras boys, that's all I gotta say.

Carl

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Had a somewhat negative experience with an outfitter over sheep this year... Got a whole bunch of this same bullshit spewed at me when rolling up to his lodge and confronting him regarding his questionable practices.

Don't forget your video cameras boys, that's all I gotta say.

Carl

BCR pretty much "sugar-coated" our G/O encounters. Personally, I would not describe them as positive. Essentially, we were told we were not welcome there. Even bribed with food and info to go elsewhere:neutral:.

Saw a G/O off on a distant small hanging basin on opening day. They seem just to be holding up not doing much...........when here's comes the Boss's gas-powered spotter:rolleyes:. Obviously, they had lost the rams they were looking for. They never did get them so it wasn't a big deal....but the video cam was always ready.
Removing quota in Reg 7 would be a disaster for residents. Reg 6 already is a disaster.


SSS

[bigwhiteys]

BCR pretty much "sugar-coated" our G/O encounters. Personally, I would not describe them as positive. Essentially, we were told we were not welcome there. Even bribed with food and info to go elsewhere:neutral:.

This individual knows where I stand and if the same games are played next year he's going to have a major resident hunter problem.

Must be nice to buy a $35,000 sheep hunt and have the guides already know where your ram is, what his age is, rough score and how to get him.

My family never operated that way... You bought a hunt and you f-ing HUNTED! Lots of guys went home empty, but at the current prices sending a guy home ram-less is obviously not good for business and/or future bookings.

Carl

[goatdancer]

The recommendation is for a GOS for residents and NO quote for the GOs. You know what will happen then.

[stoneslinger]

This thread has prompted me to sign on to this forum. I shall start a new thread that highlights the areas to hunt Stone's sheep rams in various GO territories.

I hope that this new thread will prompt new sheep hunters to explore and hunt in these areas. Will include information on walk-in, ATV, horse, riverboat, fly-in to the best of my knowledge. I hope that others will also provide input. Perhaps it can even be made into a "sticky".

[willy442]

The recommendation is for a GOS for residents and NO quote for the GOs. You know what will happen then.

All I can say is if this should ever happen every resident hunter out there should have his ass kicked for not coming forward in force. I'm not concerned about the GO or the resident, my concern is Sheep and if this were to happen we could say adios to stone sheep. Leave the GO on quota and start regulating and dispersing residents better. This is the only thing that will work. Regulating the resident can be. 1. back to the 1 in three if you shoot a young ram, or hunt every year if you shoot an old one. Nonresidents 1 in three period. 2. LEH 3. Close some small lucrative areas to hunting and let the surrounding country be hunted. Would need more CO involvment but would insure decent sheep herds in better areas.

[HD95]

FWIW;I've been informed that Barry Penner has stated that guide-outfitters will remain on quota.This doesn't mean we should drop our collective guard.They are constantly working in the background to gain advantage,at the expense of the resident hunter.

[BCrams]

BCR pretty much "sugar-coated" our G/O encounters. Personally, I would not describe them as positive. Essentially, we were told we were not welcome there. Even bribed with food and info to go elsewhere:neutral:.

Saw a G/O off on a distant small hanging basin on opening day. They seem just to be holding up not doing much...........when here's comes the Boss's gas-powered spotter :rolleyes:. Obviously, they had lost the rams they were looking for. They never did get them so it wasn't a big deal....but the video cam was always ready.
Removing quota in Reg 7 would be a disaster for residents. Reg 6 already is a disaster.
SSS

Yep. Kind of did sugar-coat it. :neutral: We did the best we could under the circumstances in a positive way. It was quite amusing to see the horses / guides in the distance standing around and then see the gas-powered spotter fly over them and along the ridge at stall speed and up another drainage.

We would see planes numerous times at oddball times and locations.

The proposed changes are ludicrous for 7-B. There will be such a big problem it isn't even funny.



Had a somewhat negative experience with an outfitter over sheep this year... Got a whole bunch of this same bullshit spewed at me when rolling up to his lodge and confronting him regarding his questionable practices.

Don't forget your video cameras boys, that's all I gotta say.

Carl


A tough break there. We had a video camera handy at all times and should have taped at least 2 episodes. One of which appeared to be a 'find where those 2 guys with packs' went.

[pearljam]

Yep. Kind of did sugar-coat it. :neutral: We did the best we could under the circumstances in a positive way. It was quite amusing to see the horses / guides in the distance standing around and then see the gas-powered spotter fly over them and along the ridge at stall speed and up another drainage.

We would see planes numerous times at oddball times and locations.

The proposed changes are ludicrous for 7-B. There will be such a big problem it isn't even funny.



A tough break there. We had a video camera handy at all times and should have taped at least 2 episodes. One of which appeared to be a 'find where those 2 guys with packs' went.


I have seen on a few outfitter web sites that the hunter can pay a little more and fly over the area before hunting to find a ram to shoot. not sure if this is still hunting.....



Prior to the hunter’s arrival, (weather depending), clients have the option of a scouting flight that can be flown to locate perspective rams and determine exact hunting locations.

[stoneslinger]

Did even offer you a drink I'd bet. Work hard to keep it all to themselves and drinkitall.

[Maxx]

This individual knows where I stand and if the same games are played next year he's going to have a major resident hunter problem.

Must be nice to buy a $35,000 sheep hunt and have the guides already know where your ram is, what his age is, rough score and how to get him.

My family never operated that way... You bought a hunt and you f-ing HUNTED! Lots of guys went home empty, but at the current prices sending a guy home ram-less is obviously not good for business and/or future bookings.

Carl



I am very sorry to hear that Carl. Its pretty sick that these guides are using unethical practices to "serve" their clients, as well as trying to drive off residents. I wonder if he took your "major" resident problem seriously?

[bridger]

guides coming off quota will be the death knell for resident sheep hunters in 7b. time to get letters and emails to the minister and your local mla or this will happen. as for being stewards of the land the only stewardship guides have is to the yankee dollar

[Deaddog]

the entire AAH philosophy will have to be thrown out the window if the qoata for outfitters were to come off....way to much work as gone in to the current way of doing business, it is working well, regional bio's support it as does the higher ups in the ministry... while I am sure goabc would love to see it change........it simply isn't going to happen, that said we cannot be to relaxed and must stay in the game to keep what we have agreed to..DD

[Stone Sheep Steve]

the entire AAH philosophy will have to be thrown out the window if the qoata for outfitters were to come off....way to much work as gone in to the current way of doing business, it is working well, regional bio's support it as does the higher ups in the ministry... while I am sure goabc would love to see it change........it simply isn't going to happen, that said we cannot be to relaxed and must stay in the game to keep what we have agreed to..DD

I agree that this request is completely out to lunch.....but it sure shows that the GOABC is entirely motivated by greed.
Hope the Ministry and bios take note of that.

SSS

[bigwhiteys]

Removing quota in Reg 7 would be a disaster for residents

guides coming off quota will be the death knell for resident sheep hunters in 7b.

I am not worried about the resident hunters... It's the sheep I would be worrying about. Sheep First.


I am very sorry to hear that Carl. Its pretty sick that these guides are using unethical practices to "serve" their clients, as well as trying to drive off residents. I wonder if he took your "major" resident problem seriously?

If there was any hunter they wouldn't want to interfere with... It's me! I won't publish written descriptions like StoneSlinger, I'll be posting Maps with Circles/X's and GPS info for all too see... My Grandparents/Dad built the trail system they use, the camps they use and the airstrips, detailed information is something I have in adbundance.. I've kept it all to myself so far partly out of my own desire for a ram out of there but also out of respect for their business. I don't feel that way anymore.

Cameras will be rolling next time.

Carl

[luckynuts]

I think anyway you look at it the sheep will lose in the end. I think it's more of a scare tactic to maybe bring everyone to the table on their terms.

I don't think the G.O.s really want this either as they would get one or 2 good years, before the residents band together and hunt it hard, there would be lots of confrontations and no client in their right mind would want to spend 35,000 to be followed around by residents and maybe get a chance to shoot a dink ram.

Look what is already happening from this thread. Guys are all ready posting info. Albeit mostly general info.

I wonder which outfits are pushing for this? Pretty sure it ain't the mom and pop's that have been doing this all their lives.

Wonder what the wild sheep society has to say about this. Wonder what the Americans also think. Would be good to get their support on this as well. Due to their most of the clients coming for sheep.

Any way you look at it the days for sheep will be very dark if this were to ever come to fruition.

W.

[bridger]

the annual allowable harvest for stone's in 7b is 180 rams. if guides are allowed to come off quota what is going to be left for residents??? very little and that is why they are on quota now because of past mis management on the part of go's. some of the original guides were conscientious, but the new international hunting companies that now make most the guiding industry are concerned only with the bottom line.

[willy442]

the annual allowable harvest for stone's in 7b is 180 rams. if guides are allowed to come off quota what is going to be left for residents??? very little and that is why they are on quota now because of past mis management on the part of go's. some of the original guides were conscientious, but the new international hunting companies that now make most the guiding industry are concerned only with the bottom line.

You know as well as I do the allowable harvest is not sustainable anymore without change. I fully agree that the GO's stay on quota. I also believe we need more control on resident dispersal. You should have seen the pressure on the yedhe mine access this year. It was incredible, same for Moose Lake during the any bull season. Not to mention the river boats chewing up all the mud bars and sending the silt down river. Really leaves a good impression.

[325]

You know as well as I do the allowable harvest is not sustainable anymore without change. I fully agree that the GO's stay on quota. I also believe we need more control on resident dispersal. You should have seen the pressure on the yedhe mine access this year. It was incredible, same for Moose Lake during the any bull season. Not to mention the river boats chewing up all the mud bars and sending the silt down river. Really leaves a good impression.


I agree 100%. I think we need to eliminate guide/outfitters from the province to maximize resident opportunity.

[willy442]

I agree 100%. I think we need to eliminate guide/outfitters from the province to maximize resident opportunity.

Too many people with that thought and more opportunity than anywhere else in the world. Once both sides become realistic maybe government will listen and progress will be made. Until then lets decimate the sheep herds "good thinking":icon_frow

[stoneslinger]

You know as well as I do the allowable harvest is not sustainable anymore without change. I fully agree that the GO's stay on quota. I also believe we need more control on resident dispersal. You should have seen the pressure on the yedhe mine access this year. It was incredible, same for Moose Lake during the any bull season. Not to mention the river boats chewing up all the mud bars and sending the silt down river. Really leaves a good impression.

Silt is a naturally occuring component of any river system. A rainstorm causes much more silt than any number of riverboats could ever produce. As far as pressure on Yedhe I say great. Resident hunters are getting out and seeing the places and looking for sheep. You know as well as I do that most are too soft and lazy to affect the sheep herd population.

How about we address the issue of GO's flying on ram patrols and relaying information to the ground crew. This practice is absolutely repugnant and detrimental to the sustainability of Stone's sheep. IMHO. It happens all over EVERY GO territory in this province. Certainly does not represent anything close to a fair chase. There is also the issue of interference of hunts/hunters. Both residents and GO's are guilty of this selfish practice.

[StoneChaser]

How about we address the issue of GO's flying on ram patrols and relaying information to the ground crew. This practice is absolutely repugnant and detrimental to the sustainability of Stone's sheep. IMHO. It happens all over EVERY GO territory in this province.

Definately was a fair bit more air traffic this year where I was sheep hunting than I've experienced in other parts of the country......

Hard on the sheep herds too, as these guys seem to really slow'er down and get close to the rocks.

I know a guy that has done a lot of flying with/for outfitters, says the obvious way to locate Stone's rams is spotting them from the cub/helio when they're feeding...second and equally effective way is flyng close to the rocks and spooking them from their beds for easy spotting as they're fleeing.

Not many charter pilots would do that for a guy I'm guessing......

Seems each year as prices increase for hunts, so does the effort spent combing the rocks for the big rams, quite sad actually........

[willy442]

Silt is a naturally occuring component of any river system. A rainstorm causes much more silt than any number of riverboats could ever produce. As far as pressure on Yedhe I say great. Resident hunters are getting out and seeing the places and looking for sheep. You know as well as I do that most are too soft and lazy to affect the sheep herd population.

How about we address the issue of GO's flying on ram patrols and relaying information to the ground crew. This practice is absolutely repugnant and detrimental to the sustainability of Stone's sheep. IMHO. It happens all over EVERY GO territory in this province. There is also the issue of interference of hunts/hunters. Both residents and GO's are guilty of this selfish practice.

I know many will call it scare tactics. But for what it's worth, here's a reply.

Guess you've never seen the mud stirred up in Moose Lake. There is a difference. I have no arguement with a viable number of hunters and harvest out of Yedhe or any other drainage. One of the things you have and should be aware of is with a large influx of hunters tendancy is to push the sheep into places where they are not pressured. This in turn gives the so called gas powered spotters a huge advantage. By the way if I was the recipient of harrassment by one of these it is a guarantee that shots would be fired and the SOB would never do it again. I have many hours as a pilot in the mountains and it was our policy that hunts were fair chase. The only time we ever flew above timber line was to clear the passes on our way into the Rabbit River country. Also any S.O.B. that shoots a ram in the fashion you state is really not a hunter and should not enjoy the privilege of shooting a Stone Ram. It is a real shame that through jealousy and greed the old resident/outfitter battle goes on. We are all hunters and there is common ground, wait and see it will be forced on all of us in the near future. I've always found in life and business, disagreements and agreements can be better resolved around a table than enforcement.

[srupp]

:confused: this has been going on for a long time...seen it out west for Calies..and up North in lots of places...numerous slow and low flights daily..early and afternoon ..got to know guides planes by their sound, timing and colors..

But when guys are paying 35K for a stone sheep hunt...lots of gas money for the flights...

Hell they even have some pilots refusing to fly into their special places..ie Spatsizzi..and a couple lake up north I would do pretty much anything to get into....

the system seems to be working HOWEVER I will defer to Rams, SSS, stonechaser Deaddog, and yes even WILLY 442 they know far more about these regions and stone sheep than I ever will..but it happened even down here for calies......

THAT BEING SAID..IF we get to go norththis year for grizzly sheep goat ...I do know Im always looking out the window of the plane..looking at swamps, hills, to see whatever is out there..and IF I did see a a ram on a hill I wouldnt disqualify him from potential harvesting sometime on the trip..

steven

[stoneslinger]

Nice to be able to live amongst and hunt these animals isn't it. As a boy I used to spot for bighorn rams from the car window while driving to school or after school. That method still works very well to this day for the region 3,4,5,6 and 7 rams. Imagine that!

I am happy that I can still go to these places and spot rams from the window. (used to be able do it with Dall's before the park)

[stoneslinger]

Guess you've never seen the mud stirred up in Moose Lake.

The last time I was there it was rubber rafts with oars, canoes or dilapidated outboards mounted to a leaky tin boat! The jet boat crowd did not exist. Like all things in life, the jetboat crowd will one day be a thing of the past.

[bridger]

Guess you've never seen the mud stirred up in Moose Lake.

The last time I was there it was rubber rafts with oars, canoes or dilapidated outboards mounted to a leaky tin boat! The jet boat crowd did not exist. Like all things in life, the jetboat crowd will one day be a thing of the past.


just as a matter of interest why do you feel the jetboat crowd will be a thing of the past?

[stoneslinger]

Factors such as attrition, economic conditions, and restrictive regulations come to mind. Nothing remains the same forever.

The more resident sheep hunters in BC the better. A larger group of concerned participants to lobby and voice concerns. Now get over to the other thread and post up some good spots for the young up and comers! We need them to become interested. I can't think of a better way to raise interest than by seeing or harvesting a ram.

[stoneslinger]

I strongly urge any persons who witness or have knowledge of GO's using airplanes in an illegal manner for the purpose of hunting big game in British Columbia to please report incident.

[bridger]

guides using aircraft to find sheep and harrassing resident sheep hunters has been going on since the first guide bought the first supercub and unfortunately will continue on into the future. i have on a couple occassions reported incidents like that and really nohting every happened. the guides reply was that he was looking for lost horses, or moving camps etc. as more and more guys take video cameras into the mtns evidence of illegal activity will becoome easier to obtain and may result in something being done other than than an oral report may make you feel good but is generally a waste of time.

[stoneslinger]

Everybody pack extra batteries and memory for the video camera and a notepad with pencil.

[Trapper D]

not yet a sheep hunter, but its disheartening to read this, i feel i better get my kids out there before there all gone. sad, sure can smell the smoke though from what you guys are saying

[boxhitch]

Its nowhere near as bad as you seem to be impressed with. Hunting is under a conservative AAH

Things will rock on rosie as long as residents are on GOS and the stocks don't crash.