Self Imposed Antler Restrictions?

[bwhnter]

Last year before the elk season started I decided that I wasn't going to arrow the first 6x6 bull that walked past me. It was the best season that I have had in a long time. Although I didn't shoot anything I managed to call in a 280 6x6 for my dad and a 307 6x6 for a friend of mine (both shot with rifles). I hunted for 28 mornings in a row with a few evenings thrown in every now and then. Everyday we had at least one 6x6 within bow range and the one day we had seven legal bulls within sight at the same time but every time one of us would draw we would spook another bull. I could have shot a couple of 250 class 6x6 and a couple of small 6x5 at the start of the season but I just couldn't stop thinking that if I was having this much luck now then a little later on it was going to be awesome. I did have my chances but one time I jerked my bow back to hard on a 325 class bull and my arrow fell off of the rest and another time right at the end of the season I manged to hit a branch dead center.

I don't think I would have changed much about the season but I am missing the elk steak so I was wondering what kind of personal restrictions you have set for yourself? Eg. 4x4 Mule deer, 150 class Whitetail, Not road kill:-D

[000buck]

i don't eat antlers but thats not to disapprove of those who prefer to remove the best breading stock from the herd. I just prefer to leave them and take the imperfect ones, it all tastes good to me.

[bwhnter]

I don't believe that when you set self imposed restrictions that you remove the best breeding stock from the herd because by passing on the younger animals you are letting them grow. Also as every one knows the older mature bulls and bucks are harder to harvest and alot more fun to hunt. If I would have shot the first legal bull that crossed my path my season would have been 1 hour long, (12 yards on the edge of a meadow looking the other direction) but he was just a young bull and he showed some good potential for up coming years.

[ARC]

Bwhntr,
Hearing about that many elk in the area is nice, since I just moved up to Fort St John last summer. I am constantly going for drives and looking at maps in an attempt to try and find some good hunting ground up here.Actually the guys I work with have been very helpful. I lived in the West Kootenays all my life, and down there I would say 95% is crown land. Coming up here and having to deal with all the farm land sure is different. I knocked on quite a few doors last fall asking for permission to hunt, and only had one person say yes.

Back to your question about antler restrictions, for me it depends on where I am hunting. Around the Fort St John area I think I will hold out for a 155-160 class mule deer minumum. Especially with the 1 buck every 2 years bag limit. However back in my hometown down south I would take any decent 4 point. For whitetail I usually hold out for a monster until the end of the season, then will take any 4 point. I have never shot an elk, so any 6 pt would do.

I never used to be very selective at all, but recently I have found the adrenaline rush just isn't there any more with smaller animals. Also, I dont know if I'm getting soft or what, but I find myself feeling a little more sorry for the critters once I shoot them now, so I don't mind going a year or two without bagging anything.

[Elkhound]

Well I have 2 tags for blacktails so the first legal buck I see is down (unless it's a spike) Then I will look for something much bigger for fun and keep my season going. If it's LEH elk or moose. First legal animal I see. No restrictions. It's meat in the freezer

[Ozone]

I'm with Elkhound on this one. Deer # 1 legal is dead, #2 is more selective(until Dec haha). LEH elk I would probily wait until 1hour after sunrise as a restiction. Like I'll ever get one.

[brotherjack]

Well, I hunt for meat, and as such, I want a critter with big heavy hindquarters. In the field, a jumbo set of antlers sticking out of the bush is a usually good indication that there's plenty O' meat on his bones. By the same token, a little spiker or 2 pointer, no mater how big I may think his body might look (of course it looks big next to those baby antlers!), is going to be smallish, and I'll let him pass.

That's for deer - for elk, by the time they're legal (6 points) - they're big enough for me. :)

Between my wife and, that's two elk tags, 4 whitetail tags, and 2 mulie tags. We've never filled them all - so our season runs as long as we want to keep getting out. (though usually, by the time the freezer is full, unless we got a friend or two we're trying to feed, we take up hunting with the camera instead of the rifle).

[bwhnter]

living around Fort St. John the farmers are having such a hard time with the deer in their crops that if I want meat I can go shoot a doe during the open season in Oct.

[brotherjack]

We don't have it quite that easy down here. :)

[Dirty]

A few years ago I was talking to a friend who said a biologist told him a great majority of the breeding of whitetail deer is done by the younger bucks. Perhaps it is because the big ones are too busy fighting and the lil guys sneak in the back door. In addition, I don't see what the difference between the big racked elk and the smaller elk would be. If the smaller(younger) elk are of the same or similar genetics they will provide just as good of offspring to the population. I don't think shooting trophy animals is extremely detrimental to the overall quality of animals.

[bigwhiteys]

I make no bones about the fact that I like to hunt for a big rack it's the way I was brought up. So YES I would say I have self imposed antler restrictions. Obviously I take and eat the meat, give away some but it's not my main focus for the hunt. I just like to be out there. Animal down or not. Not shooting something gets me back out there!

When meat is needed Rhyason Ranch has great free range buffalo and we can go out there and dump one or two as needs be. There is also a short cow elk season in region 7 thats works well for filling the freezer too.

I am happy to let the younger bucks/bulls walk.

But then again... It doesn't always save the animal to grow bigger.... I had a decent 160 class 4 pnt muley that I had at least TEN opportunities to take last season. Everytime we had a chance I said to my dad and our hunting partner "Nope... I'll let him grow he'll be bigger next year"

Keep in mind we were hunting on locked/gated private land and there are only a handful of others with permission as well and it's usually co-ordinated so only 1 group of hunters on at a time.

Sure enough on the second to last day of the season a guy rolled down there, My little pet muley buck was the first he saw and KABOOM! My little deer experiment was over and that muley lay dead in the back of this guys pickup headed for the freezer.

We saw him at the gate and congratulated him he was really excited and very proud. We checked out the deer, confirmed it was the same one and moved on...

What could I do?

My young buck (hopefully to be a bigger buck) that I had passed up over, and over was this guys big hog.

He even said so. But good on him. Now he has to wait until 2007 to go again. :) Maybe my big muley will be in there for next year ;)

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[bigwhiteys]

Dirty,

Just saw your post before mine. What you say about the whitetail deer I have found to be true also. The younger bucks do most the breeding while the older bucks fight each other they sneek in lol... My guide (my dad) tells me this also. He's not a biologist but I definitely consider him to be an expert.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[Shop Lord]

I live in region two so my first buck is for meat. I normally hunt in region three and with a one deer bag limit I try and hold out for a good buck. As far as elk and moose go - as long as its legal - if its brown its down!

[000buck]

Seems I didn't make clear my point. To each his own Ive got no problem whacking a monster rack, that said if a nice 2 point does appear well a deer in the freezer is better than......oops its dec that spike i know for gets it. I would prefer myself not to remove a geneticly superior buck from the herd ( clean 4x4 or 3x3 ) if i can take 4x2 next to him. Get a whopper if can but thats not my personal choice.

[BlacktailStalker]

I like to guarantee something in the freezer so I too take the first decent 2 point or better, then hold out til the big boys show up later in the year. I'm not really looking for them for a trophy, but more to enable me to be out in the bush more.

[bwhnter]

I feel the same as you 000buck if at the end of the season I have an unfilled deer tag and I want to shoot a buck I will try to take a geneticlly inferior buck eg 4x3. Something that is not going to grow a good rack or pass on good genes.

[steveo32]

I am a self proclaimed trophy / meat hunter i love to hold my tag for as long as my itchy trigger finger will allow but it definataly paid off last season holding out for the big one i got a 9x9 double drop tine muley after passing on a honest 30 inch wide 4x4 about 5 times in the course of 9 days.

But then again i always like a deer with a little trash. I do not have a problem with people taking the first legal animal they see but as of right now i dont depend on having a full freezer and i just like spending as much time hunting as i can, mabe that is why i also guide up north for 3 months!


steve

[Foxer]

I like to hunt, but the meat's important too. Filling the pot is the first priority. As it fills up, i might get more fussy once there's something on the pole already.

[youngfellla]

I like to keep the freezer full, I love wild game and don't eat beef. But if I still have lots of meat in the freezer from the previous year, then I concentrate more on a wall-hanger. A few years ago my brother and I both tagged bull moose, my dad got an elk, and I whacked a couple deer, so come next fall the freezer was still pretty stocked, so I didn't worry about shooting any meat-bucks or going for moose that year, instead spent my time looking for big bucks & chasing big black bears.:-D

[Walksalot]

I do not think that personal restrictions on antler size will effect the genetics of a herd as in cropping off the geneticly superior bulls or bucks. I do however feel that when everyone is forced to crop off the geneticly superior bucks or bulls such as a four point buck or six point bull season it does effect the genetics of the herd. I am not opposed to trophy only areas but they should be the exception and not the rule.

I think, for most hunters, it is about puting meat on the table so if it is legal it goes down. For myself, last season, I passed up alot of deer as I wanted a rack of antlers and I ended up shooting nothing. The year before that I was after sausage so I shot a buck with my rifle and a doe with my bow.

[tmarschall]

I do not think that personal restrictions on antler size will effect the genetics of a herd as in cropping off the geneticly superior bulls or bucks. I do however feel that when everyone is forced to crop off the geneticly superior bucks or bulls such as a four point buck or six point bull season it does effect the genetics of the herd.

Walksalot.... BINGO!!!! Thats the same conclusion that all biologists I have talked to around here say. However, there is an antler restriction they have recently imposed here for whitetails for select counties. These counties have low deer densities and high hunting pressure. In the past... just about any deer showing an antler got blasted... does were not legal at all. The buck population was so low and sex ratio was so out of balance, they figgered many does were not even being bred. The restriction first said the buck must have at least a 13 inch inside spread (just outside the ears basically), in order to be legal. They have since upped the bag limit to 2 bucks, only one of which may have a spread of greater than 13 inches inside, the other must be a spike(unbranched antler on one side). Harvests have increased greatly since implementation of these restrictions. Harvest regulations have changed to keep pace with the changes in populations for these counties. Hunters, legislatures and biologists can do wonders when they all work towards a common goal.

[death-junky]

for me i shoot the first damn thing i see weather its big or small. im in it for the meat :D not the mount.
ttyal
Riley

[talver]

I live in Surrrey and when my hunting group goes up to fort nelson or any way up north for moose and elk. We have a unsaid rule which is were not selective until after the first LEGAL Bull is hanging on the meat poll. After this point hell yeah I am going to wait till I see that monster I have driven 20 plus hours for. See for us its some meat in the freezer then lets find that rack. The thing is those in over 9 years going up north I have yet to see a 2point moose up there and with this 10point or 3 on the brow its usually a nice size animal with a decent rack.

[Phred]

I eat meat, not antlers.

[GoatGuy]

Most hunters are meat hunters or as mentioned above meat first, then selective. That's a fact.

One thing to remember - genetics are grown, they're there regardless of age.

This does bring up a good point that some outfits in the States have done. Should we be cropping off the genetically inferior bucks/bulls on a cull/some sort of special hunt????

[bigwhiteys]

This does bring up a good point that some outfits in the States have done. Should we be cropping off the genetically inferior bucks/bulls on a cull/some sort of special hunt????\

Yes, I think in Region 7 there should be a 3 point muley season to help wean out some of the big three points in the area.

We have seen several three points that were absolute dandy bucks but no season! We need to get them out.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[GoatGuy]

\

Yes, I think in Region 7 there should be a 3 point muley season to help wean out some of the big three points in the area.

We have seen several three points that were absolute dandy bucks but no season! We need to get them out.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

Yeah, you've got some issues in 7B :grin: - - things are managed a little differently up there.

[Walksalot]

[quote=GoatGuy]
One thing to remember - genetics are grown, they're there regardless of age.

True that but we must remember that while genetics can be enhanced genetics can also be compromized by not letting the animasls reach their full potential.

[Foxer]

This does bring up a good point that some outfits in the States have done. Should we be cropping off the genetically inferior bucks/bulls on a cull/some sort of special hunt????

How do you identify 'genetically inferior deer' in an easily recognizable way?

[bigwhiteys]

Foxer,

I've learned to judge by looking at the antlers or horns of the animal. The way they have grown, their mass, their height and their symetry and also how the buck/bull/ram carries themselves.

What do others use?

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[000buck]

How do you identify 'genetically inferior deer' in an easily recognizable way?




A deer with generally poor antler mass such as odd tine counts, poor over all mass such as a 4 point with a short rise or narrow beam, lack of a brow tine, poor coloration or birth defects(much harder to detect) even a fair rack with poor body mass. anything that is less than what you would want as your trophy wall mount in general

[Walksalot]

[quote=Foxer]How do you identify 'genetically inferior deer' in an easily recognizable way?

Foxer, watch some outdoor shows and watch the bucks some of these guys shoot. Alot of times it is a non typical or misformed antlered animal they want out of the gene pool so the hunter is treated to a cull hunt.

[GoatGuy]

http://texnat.tamu.edu/symposia/genetics/TheRoleofGeneticsinWhitetailedDeerManagement2ndEdi tion.pdf


Some light reading.

I have a few articles sitting around here somewhere - can't seem to find them.

[Foxer]

Foxer, watch some outdoor shows and watch the bucks some of these guys shoot. Alot of times it is a non typical or misformed antlered animal they want out of the gene pool so the hunter is treated to a cull hunt.

Is that what you're going to put in the regs? "watch outdoors shows and see what they shoot"? :)

I asked how you can tell in an easily identifiable way. Let me rephrase it:

In what manner would you phrase the legal definitions in the regulations such that hunters, regardless of experience, would be able to identify a legal animal matching your intended description of 'genetically inferior'?

Something's got to go in the regs - what were you thinking of for a definition?

[Walksalot]

Is that what you're going to put in the regs? "watch outdoors shows and see what they shoot"? :)

I asked how you can tell in an easily identifiable way. Let me rephrase it:

In what manner would you phrase the legal definitions in the regulations such that hunters, regardless of experience, would be able to identify a legal animal matching your intended description of 'genetically inferior'?

Something's got to go in the regs - what were you thinking of for a definition?

"Any non typical antlered animal" would have to go. Pictures and photos would have to be printed in the regulations.

[Walksalot]

It would be a nightmare for the conservation guys.

[000buck]

Is that what you're going to put in the regs? "watch outdoors shows and see what they shoot"? :)

I asked how you can tell in an easily identifiable way. Let me rephrase it:

In what manner would you phrase the legal definitions in the regulations such that hunters, regardless of experience, would be able to identify a legal animal matching your intended description of 'genetically inferior'?

Something's got to go in the regs - what were you thinking of for a definition?


ummmm how did this become a it should be in the regs thing?? It's a matter of personal preferance thats all. If you only want to shoot the finest of the species thats up to you. I' ld personally like to see every deer as a clone of bambi's dad but poor blood line's will always exist and i'll always shoot at them.

as above A deer with generally poor antler mass such as odd tine counts, poor over all mass such as a 4 point with a short rise or narrow beam, lack of a brow tine, poor coloration or birth defects(much harder to detect) even a fair rack with poor body mass. anything that is less than what you would want as your trophy wall mount in general

[Foxer]

ummmm how did this become a it should be in the regs thing??

From this statement, which is what i was responding to:


Should we be cropping off the genetically inferior bucks/bulls on a cull/some sort of special hunt????

My question was... how could you identify the desired target animals in a special season or hunt in a definition that's easy to understand? "generally poor antler mass" isn't a description one could use effectively if we were going to have such a hunt or cull.

[Foxer]

"Any non typical antlered animal" would have to go. Pictures and photos would have to be printed in the regulations.

I gotcha - so just 'any nontypical'.

You could probably pull that off.

[Walksalot]

I gotcha - so just 'any nontypical'.

You could probably pull that off.

If I use our beautiful province of British Columbia as an example, it is simply to big and to emense to try to cull the genetically inferior animals from the population. It can be done in a controlled environment such as a hunting ranch where they seed the crops conucive to healthy animals, feed the minerals condusive to agressive antler growth and have care takers who monitor the herd.

[Foxer]

You could likely make 'sweeps' in specific areas tho - a couple years of 'extra' season or tags only for non-typicals in specific areas to 'improve' the situation there, and then when the breeding stock has been 'thinned' of them, move on to another area.

Would it help tho? Even if you got a lot of them, you're not taking the 'bad' females out of the mix.

[000buck]

From this statement, which is what i was responding to:



My question was... how could you identify the desired target animals in a special season or hunt in a definition that's easy to understand? "generally poor antler mass" isn't a description one could use effectively if we were going to have such a hunt or cull.

got it, sorry running a bit behind :roll: but i'm your page now :grin: . Can't argue with you for sure. It would be completly subjective without a biologist in your pocket and therefore unenforcable, you cannot enact a law that requires for the input of personal opinion and enforce it by penalty if it isn't the same as another person's opinion.

[bwhnter]

I don't agree with the "any non-typical" thought. At our Big buck night this past fall we had two non-typical mule deer that scored over 200 B+C. We also had a white-tail that gross right around 220 and it was the ugliest yet coolest deer there. It looked like Medussa. I think it is a personal matter of opinion and what I think is a geneticaly inferior deer someone else will disagree. If I am willing to hang my tag on it then that is all that matters.

As for the Three point problem in 7b we have been trying to work with the MOE to get that striaghtened out but it is not as easy as it seems. We all agree that there are some monster 3x3 out there but the general consences it that a 3 point or bigger season isn't the way to go. The last time we had a meeting about deer hunting in our area they wanted to increase the number of doe tags to two, one on LEH and one for the open season. Then they were going to reduce our buck season down to almost half. They originally wanted to kill close to half the mule deer in the region. After some thought they decided to leave it as is for one more year and see what else they could come up with.

[Walksalot]

[quote=bwhnter]I don't agree with the "any non-typical" thought. At our Big buck night this past fall we had two non-typical mule deer that scored over 200 B+C. We also had a white-tail that gross right around 220 and it was the ugliest yet coolest deer there. It looked like Medussa. I think it is a personal matter of opinion and what I think is a geneticaly inferior deer someone else will disagree. If I am willing to hang my tag on it then that is all that matters.

Don't get me wrong, there are some impressive nontypical racks out there but if one was out to control the gene pool and limit it to only large typical antlers then the nontypicals would be classed as geneticaly inferior or simply getting past it's prime.

[bigwhiteys]

Walksalot,

I have read your thoughts about the "Any Non-Typical" and bad genes... Did you know that it's not just "Bad Genes" that can make a deer go non-typical?

Deer can go Non-Typical by hitting their horns on something in the velvet and deforming them. They can also go non-typical when they are getting old and passing their prime.

They are not nessecarily genetically inferior bucks. I would say the contrary for many non-typicals that I have seen/shot.

My dad shot a 202" Net non-typical whitey a few years back and I wouldn't by any means call this buck genetically inferior. He was definitley OLD as he only had one tooth left. He lived a long time, grew a huge rack and was most likely a genetically superior buck. In his old age his horns just started to deform.

There is more to bad genes then a deer simply going non-typical.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[huntwriter]

"Non Typical" antlers are not necessary genetics. In fact most non-typical anlters are from accidents. While the antlers are still soft the buck had a fight with another buck or smashed against a tree and brocke or deformed a tine or two. From that day onward the "injured" tines will gow back deformed every year. Not so long ago a talked to a deer biologist who did a lot of studies on non typical deer and he told me that almost all non typical antlers are from accidents or birth defects and not genetics. He showed me many x-rays they did of non-typical antlers and explained what they have found on these x-rays which, where old scares from injuries to the antlers. Sometimes it dosn't take much more than injuring the velevet layer before it is time to rub it off.

[bigwhiteys]

"Non Typical" antlers are not necessary genetics. In fact most non-typical anlters are from accidents. While the antlers are still soft the buck had a fight with another buck or smashed against a tree and brocke or deformed a tine or two. From that day onward the "injured" tines will gow back deformed every year. Not so long ago a talked to a deer biologist who did a lot of studies on non typical deer and he told me that almost all non typical antlers are from accidents or birth defects and not genetics. He showed me many x-rays they did of non-typical antlers and explained what they have found on these x-rays which, where old scares from injuries to the antlers. Sometimes it dosn't take much more than injuring the velevet layer before it is time to rub it off.

Thank you Huntwriter, I knew my dad wasn't out to lunch! This is why when bucks/bulls are in the velvet you often seen them out in the open. They hate running into thick bush for fear of damaging their antlers. They are extra cautious. As natures rules would hinder their ability to mate/reproduce if they damaged their rack.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[Fred]

They are extra cautious. As natures rules would hinder their ability to mate/reproduce if they damaged their rack.Happy Hunting!
Carl

Some guys could take a lesson here! :roll: Fred

[Walksalot]

"Non Typical" antlers are not necessary genetics. In fact most non-typical anlters are from accidents. While the antlers are still soft the buck had a fight with another buck or smashed against a tree and brocke or deformed a tine or two. From that day onward the "injured" tines will gow back deformed every year. Not so long ago a talked to a deer biologist who did a lot of studies on non typical deer and he told me that almost all non typical antlers are from accidents or birth defects and not genetics. He showed me many x-rays they did of non-typical antlers and explained what they have found on these x-rays which, where old scares from injuries to the antlers. Sometimes it dosn't take much more than injuring the velevet layer before it is time to rub it off.

True that but when the animal consistently has nontypical antlers it is genetics.

[Walksalot]

[quote=bigwhiteys]Walksalot,
My dad shot a 202" Net non-typical whitey a few years back and I wouldn't by any means call this buck genetically inferior. He was definitley OLD as he only had one tooth left. He lived a long time, grew a huge rack and was most likely a genetically superior buck. In his old age his horns just started to deform.

There is more to bad genes then a deer simply going non-typical.

True that but in a controlled environment, such as a game ranch,that buck may have been harvested before it reached it's full potential if it continued to have a nontypical rack if the owners of the ranch want typical antlered deer to be the norm.

[huntwriter]

True that but when the animal consistently has nontypical antlers it is genetics.
That can happen too Walksalot, but it is very seldom that a deer has non-typical genes, a so called birth defect. Most non-typical deer are accidents and then left with scares for the rest of their life. Although the antlers fall of in the winter the injury is still "imprinted" and as the atlers get bigger with age so will the scare and actually deform more and more. A newer study also has shown that the health condition of a buck as fawn, i.e. lack of nutrition, might influence a non-typical antler growth, but it is at this stage to early to say for sure and more research needs to be done in that direction.

At least that is how it has been explained to me by the deer biologist who researched the non-typical issue for many years. The reason for that research was based on the idea or non-typical bucks could be "breed" by planting special antler growth foods and killing off typical bucks. The answer to that question was a resounding NO it can not be done because it is not a gene related anomaly in most cases.

[tmarschall]

http://texnat.tamu.edu/symposia/genetics/TheRoleofGeneticsinWhitetailedDeerManagement2ndEdi tion.pdf (http://texnat.tamu.edu/symposia/genetics/TheRoleofGeneticsinWhitetailedDeerManagement2ndEdi tion.pdf)


Some light reading.


GoatGuy ... thats my alma mater... they been heavy into deer research for many years. Got my wildlife degree from there!!!

[Walksalot]

That can happen too Walksalot, but it is very seldom that a deer has non-typical genes, a so called birth defect. Most non-typical deer are accidents and then left with scares for the rest of their life. Although the antlers fall of in the winter the injury is still "imprinted" and as the atlers get bigger with age so will the scare and actually deform more and more. A newer study also has shown that the health condition of a buck as fawn, i.e. lack of nutrition, might influence a non-typical antler growth, but it is at this stage to early to say for sure and more research needs to be done in that direction.

At least that is how it has been explained to me by the deer biologist who researched the non-typical issue for many years. The reason for that research was based on the idea or non-typical bucks could be "breed" by planting special antler growth foods and killing off typical bucks. The answer to that question was a resounding NO it can not be done because it is not a gene related anomaly in most cases.

Huntwriter, with all due respect, can't nontypical antlers be a sign of genetics heading in the wrong direction by cropping off the mature animals and leaving the immature animals to do the breeding.

[huntwriter]

Huntwriter, with all due respect, can't nontypical antlers be a sign of genetics heading in the wrong direction by cropping off the mature animals and leaving the immature animals to do the breeding.

That could be one possible scenario. But as far as I have been told by that deer biologist is that. If you take out all or most of the mature bucks of a population the younger bucks, that are equal in strength begin to fight with each other more often. Since they are young the antlers and skull bones are softer thus the chance of injury to the antlers, the base of the antlers, the velvet and last but not least to the skull plate are more likely. In populations where there are a sufficient numbers of mature bucks there is a lot less fighting because the ranks are well established amongst the bucks, plus the older guys keep the young onse in line. Where there are no older established bucks it's a bit of anarchy abmongst the young bucks.

A lot more research needs to be done in this direction and it will be fascinating to read the results. Currently it is the opinion that genes play only a small role in a buck becoming a non-typical or a typical. It is believed that other influences, such as accidents and food or the lack of it, play a much bigger role in this issue. Where genes do play a huge role is in the size and mass of antlers, that's the reason why that whole new fashion of QDM (Qaulity Deer Management) is a bit of a money making gimmick rather than a factual reality.

I might just have opend a can of worms with that last statement.:wink:

Until such time that researchers can prove one or the other way I am open minded about it. However, I have to admit that I lean more toward the accident, nutrition theory. Simply because to me it seems more logic and I have seen more "evidence" from that corner of the research.

There is also the issue of the little know fact that in most cases it is the younger bucks that do most of the breeding. Even in areas where there are a lot of older bucks. The older bucks breed too but they are more busy policing the young ones and protecting their hierarchical status. While the young ones sneak behind the older guys back for a happy hour with a doe, but there is a lot less fighting amongst those bucks. The last thing younger bucks want is to attract the attention of an older bigger buck with fighting and risk to get their rear ends kicked.

Personally I have seen this often when hunting. I areas where there are a lot of bucks, atler rattling does not work, in fact it often will scare the deer. On the other hand where there are less bucks and mostly young bucks rattling can work very well. This led me to believe that in areas with many bucks and older bucks there is indeed less fighting going on and thus less injury to the antlers, velvet, antler base and skull plate.

[Walksalot]

Huntwriter, I have to agree with the statement about the younger bucks sneaking in but I think those large antlered geneticly superior, as in the proof of the pudding animals, are huge in the health and well being of a well managed wildelife population.

I have wittnessed it in an elk population in our area. The large mature animals were cropped off and it turned into a mess. Instead of large antlered typical animals we started to see more nontypical antlers. When the biologist woke up and smelled the coffee it was a mess. A 6 point shortened season was intoduced and this has been huge in resurgence of a healthy population but I totally disagree with cropping off the bigger animals as a wildlife management strategy. I may be out to lunch here but I say target the smaller animals and put the bigger animals on LEH. If to many of the smaller animals start to get taken then shorten the season.

[huntwriter]

Huntwriter, I have to agree with the statement about the younger bucks sneaking in but I think those large antlered geneticly superior, as in the proof of the pudding animals, are huge in the health and well being of a well managed wildelife population.

I have wittnessed it in an elk population in our area. The large mature animals were cropped off and it turned into a mess. Instead of large antlered typical animals we started to see more nontypical antlers. When the biologist woke up and smelled the coffee it was a mess. A 6 point shortened season was intoduced and this has been huge in resurgence of a healthy population but I totally disagree with cropping off the bigger animals as a wildlife management strategy. I may be out to lunch here but I say target the smaller animals and put the bigger animals on LEH. If to many of the smaller animals start to get taken then shorten the season.

I absolutely agree with you. If a lot of young bucks, or as in your case young bull elk, are taken out how is one to tell if that animal would have developed into a animal with good (big) antler sized bull/buck. My experience in similar situations has been that hunters would take the bigger of two spikes. It stands to reason, given that the age is the same, that the larger spike had better antler genetics than the small spike who was left to breed the does.

It is also a fact that only superior, as in heathier, smarter and stronger animals, will become old enough to develop fully and pass on their good gene pool. Wheras the weaklings and stupid animals fall prey to predators or hunters.

As a good wildlife management tool to establish a strong herd, we should weed out the smaller, not necessary young, animals of both sexes out of a herd. For example; If I have the choice of taking a haggard old doe or a strong young buck with a nice rack, then I will take that doe and let the buck walk. The same if I see a nice buck with good genetics and an old skinny guy with smaller anters. It will be the skinny guy that gets a ride home in the back of my truck. The eating of such animals might be though and needs a lot of marinade but I have done my job as conservationist.

All of this does not mean that I would not shoot a nice B&C or P&Y buck, but he has to be in his prime, (old). My basic idea of conservation is to give the young strong animal a fair chance to pass its genes on to a few new generations. But still let enough older deer (bucks) around to police the area and keep the order in the house.

[tangozulu]

If its brown, its down? At least trophy hunters are unlikely to accidently shoot another hunter. I set my own elk std at a 6 pt.

[GoatGuy]

GoatGuy ... thats my alma mater... they been heavy into deer research for many years. Got my wildlife degree from there!!!

That's great --- fill us in then!!!! I've read a couple of articles and some biologists figure they can point out the genetically "inferior" critters but I'm not up to date. Please write on!

[GoatGuy]

I have wittnessed it in an elk population in our area. The large mature animals were cropped off and it turned into a mess. Instead of large antlered typical animals we started to see more nontypical antlers. When the biologist woke up and smelled the coffee it was a mess. A 6 point shortened season was intoduced and this has been huge in resurgence of a healthy population but I totally disagree with cropping off the bigger animals as a wildlife management strategy. I may be out to lunch here but I say target the smaller animals and put the bigger animals on LEH. If to many of the smaller animals start to get taken then shorten the season.

I thought the nontypical antlers are associated with a lack of fresh blood (inbreeding) - apparently it's even more prevelant in the Princeton herd???? :frown:

[huntwriter]

I thought the nontypical antlers are associated with a lack of fresh blood (inbreeding) - apparently it's even more prevelant in the Princeton herd???? :frown:
As of yet there is no evidence that inbreeding, where it occurs, has anything to do with antler deformation. I just posted an article in this forum (Non-Typical Antler Growth in Deer) this article explains the causes for non-typical antler growth.

[Walksalot]

I thought the nontypical antlers are associated with a lack of fresh blood (inbreeding) - apparently it's even more prevelant in the Princeton herd???? :frown:

Goat Guy, does not inbreeding effect genetics?
There was new blood introduced to the Princeton herd a few years ago in the form of some bulls and cows, the exact number I forget.

I talked to the wildlife biologist and suggested they introduce some animals into the Okanagan herd and the answer was there was a conflict between the agricultural areas and the elk already and to try to enhance the herd would lead to more conflict. When the logging opened up access to the areas the elk were using as a refuge the hunters harvested most of the bull from thre herd and the harvest rate on the 3 point or better went way down. I do believe one year it was zero. Shortly after that these raggedy ass nontypical antlers started showing up and the last bull I shot was a prime example. Even bfore they shortened the season and went to the 6 point or better my buddy and I had quit hunting them as we could see they were in trouble. What is amazing is the amount of hunters who also knew they were in trouble and kept on hunting them.

[GoatGuy]

Goat Guy, does not inbreeding effect genetics?.

That's what I was told!



There was new blood introduced to the Princeton herd a few years ago in the form of some bulls and cows, the exact number I forget.

I talked to the wildlife biologist and suggested they introduce some animals into the Okanagan herd and the answer was there was a conflict between the agricultural areas and the elk already and to try to enhance the herd would lead to more conflict. When the logging opened up access to the areas the elk were using as a refuge the hunters harvested most of the bull from thre herd and the harvest rate on the 3 point or better went way down. I do believe one year it was zero. Shortly after that these raggedy ass nontypical antlers started showing up and the last bull I shot was a prime example. Even bfore they shortened the season and went to the 6 point or better my buddy and I had quit hunting them as we could see they were in trouble. What is amazing is the amount of hunters who also knew they were in trouble and kept on hunting them.

I have a buddy who was part of the local RMEF chapter and they tried to do a transplant but after jumping through all the hoops with the Ministry and FN the area they wanted to catch the Elk had an easy winter and they didn't end up catching any. I think the foundation dissolved shortly thereafter. Sounds like a project?? I'm sure you rally the troops and twist the bio's arm if you really wanted to! :grin:

The harvest statistics actually aren't that bad - 97 and 98 were a little low but can be attributed to the bad winter. In "your" area 99 and 00 had no bulls shot be residents but that was after the 6 pt or better - the number of hunters dropped wayyyyyyyy offf too.

Regionally, when they go to 6 pt. the number of hunters and bulls harvested decrease by the same amount (but all the bulls were 6pt better not 3pt and up). The number of days per harvest actually goes down - very interesting. They did a flight this year and numbers were consistent with the last flight which I believe was in 2000.

I've burned gas over your way and the elk are always easy to find from above. Hopefully things will start to twin this year from all that feed.

On a side note the elk pop has moved big time and I recently spoke with a hunter who's seen them as far north as Enderby - they actually went back and called a couple rag horns in (no season up there, don't think the bio knows about them). They've been spotted in several areas north and east of Kelowna so that's good - and of course that bull was shot close to town this past year and left/poached/couldn't find it - whatever!

It looks promising and there were some big bulls taken out of reg 8 last year - just a little gnarly is all! :p

Sounds like you've got a project on your hands - I'll help if you want.

[Walksalot]

I know the biologist who spearheaded the projet, retired now, but those elk were delivered to Princeton.



I

[Walksalot]

[quote=GoatGuy]That's what I was told!

Goat Guy, I pulled this off the internet.

http://bacteria.fciencias.unam.mx/Evolucion/inbreenatpop.pdf

[tmarschall]

That's great --- fill us in then!!!! I've read a couple of articles and some biologists figure they can point out the genetically "inferior" critters but I'm not up to date. Please write on!

GoatGuy.... I could write for hours and hours. Maybe you could e-mail me with your specific topic of interest.... Tom